Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
100-116)
MR SEAMUS DOOLEY,
MS DOT
KIRBY, MS
JANNINE WADDELL
AND MS DAWN
SIMPSON
27 OCTOBER 2009
Q100 Dr McDonnell: Yes, at the moment.
For the next three months especially. I gather Channel 4 suggests
an opt-out from main news bulletins. What impact would this have
on the portrayal or projection of Northern Ireland and vice versa?
Ms Kirby: It would depend how
it is done. If you are talking about Channel 4 coming into Northern
Ireland with a revised remit to cover local news properly and
on a cross-platform basis with built-in safeguards on editorial
independence and impartiality, guarantees on reach and impact
which would be measured presumably, and there would be a financially
stable model, that they would bid for that every two or three
years or whatever, I presume you are talking about it as an alternative
to the UTV coverage?
Q101 Dr McDonnell: Yes.
Ms Kirby: So UTV would be able
to throw their hat into the ring for that contract as well, and
so would other news consortia. That would be something we could
probably support. We would need to take a careful look at exactly
what the components of the arrangements were, but if you are talking
about Channel 4 doing a happy little opt, and an opt sounds to
me like something that is very quick and over before you realise
it is on air, if you are talking about a three minute, five minute
or ten minute opt as an alternative to what we have now, which
is half an hour every night at six o'clock and another half an
hour at 10.30, that is not anything that we could support. The
other thing to come to on that is what Channel 4 would probably
say is it depends on the resources: "If you give us the resources
we will do it properly. If you want it cheap and cheerful, we
can do it cheap and cheerful". An important point that has
been lost in this whole debate, and it has not been made in the
submissions to the Committee, is that what happens with regional
news across the UK at the moment costs between £40 million
and £60 million according to Ofcom. That is something which
the public at the moment does not pay for because it is basically
paid for out of the advertising revenue of the network. What you
are being asked to approve with this new Independently Funded
News Consortia, which is cross-media and more localised, will
cost between £60 million and £100 million, and that
is new money, money that the taxpayer at the moment is not paying.
Chairman: That is very helpful
of you to emphasise that.
Q102 Dr McDonnell: UTV's news requirement
has dropped from five hours 20 minutes to four hours a week. What
impact has that had on journalism?
Ms Kirby: Huge. They have lost
their mid-morning bulletins. We have lost Insight, or Counterpoint
as it used to be known. As well as the five hours 20 minutes to
four hours, they have also been allowed to reduce their non-news
content from four hours to two hours. The initial proposal was
that it dropped to one and a half hours. In terms of a reflection
of the community back at itself and the analysis that has a profound
impact on their journalism. The BBC needs a strong commercial
sector. We think what you want to be aiming for is a strong BBC
versus a strong commercial sector and they will drive one another
up if there is proper competition, but the competition needs to
be robust and credible. You do not want to weaken the opposition.
Q103 Dr McDonnell: Do you think that
regional news partnerships sharing infrastructure and raw material
would restrict the neutrality of journalists or affect or compromise
them in any way?
Ms Kirby: Potentially it could,
yes. Presumably you would build in safeguards in terms of editorial
independence. Certainly there would be a danger in reducing audience
choice. I can see that is an attractive idea, but one of our members
put it quite eloquently at our branch meeting last week when he
described the idea as being "a nonsense". You probably
could not get the existing two studio sets of UTV and BBC into
one studio physically and give cameras enough room to move around,
but I am sure it is not beyond the wit of man or woman to design
a couple of studio sets that could sit side-by-side. It probably
sounds like a good idea because you have got one big expensive
studio being fired up at six o'clock and then half an hour later
the BBC does the same thing, but on a practical level it would
not work because both studios would be involved for at least an
hour, probably an hour and a half or more, in rehearsals before
they go on air, and how do you have Paul Clark telling people
the UTV news whenever Noel Thompson is over in the other corner
of the studio trying to do the local BBC headlines into the London
output. Studio sharing would not work. You could share some crews
on some stories like big court cases or where there is a double
fatality, say.
Q104 Chairman: But you could not
have the competition of which you recently spoke if you had that?
Ms Kirby: No, you could not. You
could send two reporters and pool the cameraman or woman. I think
Ofcom has said that it would not really reduce the burden of producing
regional news. As I say, regional news costs £40 million
to £60 million. Ofcom reckon that in 2011 the sharing of
regional news facilities on the news side of the house could save
£1.5 million and by 2014 £5.7 million. It would be a
lot of effort for not the sort of savings you want to be aiming
to achieve.
Mr Dooley: Can I just make one
other point. I would welcome the comment that was made this morning
about the potential for the sharing of facilities in relation
to training. Anything that would enhance training in a strategic
manner is something that we would welcome. We believe there should
be more work done in the area of training. This is not just an
issue about the sharing of technical resources, it is also about
the sharing of the editorial decision-making process, and by definition
if you are talking about using one crew to cover one story that
means that some other story, be it the announcement of a contender
for the election of the leadership of a political party or whatever,
is going to be jointly decided to be taken off not one list but
potentially off two lists. There are delicate editorial issues
there, it is not just a question of sharing.
Chairman: Surely it would also
blur editorial integrity.
Q105 Dr McDonnell: Diversity too.
Ms Kirby: Yes, absolutely, there
is a danger of that. I do not think anybody would dream of having
the pooling of crews on all stories, that would be absolutely
crazy, you might as well not bother having an opposition if you
were going to do that. It would just be on one, two or three stories
depending on the news day where you know that both sides are going
to be there. As was said this morning, really outside of news
there would be huge potential for the sharing of resources. When
you get into the digital side of the house and things outside
of news you could do it, and you could do it a lot more comfortably
than you could on news.
Q106 Chairman: Of course, at the
moment one has that with the printed media PA existing happily
side-by-side with the individual newspapers and that may be something
that to a degree could be an example, but the blurring of the
distinction would be the negation of the competition that you
believe is the lifeblood of vigorous journalism.
Ms Kirby: That is a very good
way to put it.
Mr Dooley: I think the analogy
about PA and the use of agencies is an interesting one because
traditionally in the print media, and we will use the home example,
PA and other agencies were used to enhance own staff coverage
of Northern Ireland. Independent News and Media no longer have
an office in Northern Ireland, they rely entirely on agencies,
so you have the largest media organisation on the island of Ireland
relying either on one of its sister papers, The Telegraph,
or on agency copy. I think that is an unhappy comparison. We believe
that agencies play an important role but the use of own staff
by even sister papers within the print industry is something that
we would all see as being desirable because you need many voices.
There is a lesson in how the print industry has moved on that
one and we would regard that as retrograde.
Q107 Rosie Cooper: I have two questions.
What impact do you think the new production targets for the BBC
and Channel 4 will have on Northern Ireland? It is easy to say,
but realistically do you have a sufficient production base here
because you are arguing that it is drifting away and you are not
getting enough production here? Do you have a sufficient production
base to increase local programme making if that were to happen?
Ms Simpson: There is a production
base here, it is just not recognised. From the recent survey that
we did it proved that across the BBC, for instance, only 2% of
their overall average network turnover came from the BBC, yet
there is lots of production in cable and satellite, in overseas
and international. It exists. The additional spend and income,
as my colleague has already indicated, just from the BBC could
create another £30 million. That will trigger more talent
to move here so there will be companies moving in and it will
also give indigenous companies the confidence in developing and
buying in additional talent as well provided the commitment is
there. It should not just be left to the BBC. I think the BBC
has made a good step forward in their first commitment, particularly
ring-fencing about 17% to the nations. Channel 4 does very little
within Northern Ireland and in 2007 I think they spent £300,000
out of their nearly £600 million budget in Northern Ireland.
The figures that I have seen from 2008 look not much improved
on that. If Channel 4 were to equal the 50%, as in the BBC, then
you would have two competitive broadcasters that were investing
in Northern Ireland and that would create a catalyst for indigenous
companies to grow and develop but also for the new companies and
development to move into the region as well.
Q108 Rosie Cooper: We heard before
that the move from £6 million to £8 million meant an
increase from 0.2% to 0.3%. The 2009 PACT census indicated that
two-thirds of independents were based in London and Northern Ireland
was the lowest of the regions having 1%, Wales 4% and Scotland
5%. How confident are you that the regulators can ensure that
you get your fair share for Northern Ireland?
Ms Simpson: It has been an ongoing
battle. It is a matter of trying to convince the commissioners.
We know that the talent is there and if more investment was made
and more commitment to Northern Ireland it would attract and build
and grow that talent and spread. If there was another commitment
from another broadcaster, such as Channel 4, to increase spend
that would give people confidence to invest more in their own
companies and also to move into the Northern Ireland area. It
is a battle and it is not an easy one. You can go to the BBC,
Channel 4, ITV and say, "The talent is here" and you
can show them figures and graphs about how much they are doing
internationally, and as I mentioned before Northern Ireland rated
the highest amount of hours in the past 18 months for international
commissions with over 400 hours, so they can produce in volume
and good ideas, but the battle is down to the commissioners and
unless they are targeted specifically, and we talked about a target
for investment and taking more risks on new companies and they
start to do that and see development, it will not happen. There
are things in place and it is still very early on with the BBC,
but the problem of leaving it to just one broadcaster is a big
problem.
Ms Waddell: Also Northern Ireland
Screen has invested in several companies coming into the sector
as well, which is another boost. What the sector really needs
is a returning series from the BBC or Channel 4 to kick-start
everything happening here.
Q109 Rosie Cooper: You talked about
trying to convince the commissioners, but the second part of my
question was about the ability of the regulators to ensure that
whatever levels were set were at least adhered to. What confidence
do you have that that can happen?
Ms Simpson: We do our own reports
on that as well. From our last report in 2008 that was comparing
what Ofcom produced and what we feel has really been produced
and should be attributed to Northern Ireland or the nations and
regions. We constantly question that. We highlighted some anomalies
in ITV and Ofcom mentioned earlier that they had then gone back
and realised they had not hit their targets. We try to oversee
that. One thing that has recently arisen is a change in the out
of London definition. Ofcom only regulate the fact that it is
out of London and up until recently you could spend a minimum
spend in Northern Ireland to qualify for a Northern Ireland production
and that could only mean 20% of the production base, so economically
Northern Ireland does not really benefit from that but it takes
away what has been committed to Northern Ireland. We have recently
proposed to Ofcom that those out of London definitions should
be specific to a particular nation or English region if they want
to qualify and take a piece of that target otherwise there is
no sustained growth, no economic impact or benefits. We have a
doubt as to whether those targets would mean anything if they
could just ship people in and out, spend a minimum amount and
they could tick that box and qualify and that would take that
away from the nation.
Chairman: Could you let us have
some illustrative figures later. I do not want to put you on the
spot here, that is not fair, but if you could let our clerk have
some illustrative figures that would be rather helpful when we
come to frame our recommendations.
Q110 Rosie Cooper: This is a question
and a statement from me too. The question would be, would you
believe that more production in Northern Ireland would improve
the portrayal of Northern Ireland? I believe that is a given.
As somebody who has been coming here since I was a child, the
view I have of Northern Ireland—great people, beautiful
country—does not necessarily reflect the view of people
who have seen Northern Ireland over the last 50 years via the
news, so you really have to work very hard at getting more of
that production so that people see the real Northern Ireland.
I am answering the question myself. It is so important that you
get that over. Do you share that view?
Ms Waddell: Absolutely. The more
production you get, the more portrayal of the country and accents.
We need to get the business in first of all.
Q111 Chairman: I think we would all
agree with that. If you had to make a choice as to which area
needs the greatest attention, would you say that it is the production
and programmes for what I might call indigenous consumption within
Northern Ireland or the production of programmes, such as Rosie
Cooper just alluded to and has come up time and again in our session
today, which help to give people outside, and especially in the
rest of the UK, an adequate picture of what life in Northern Ireland
is like? Which of those needs most or more attention in your view?
Ms Waddell: It is the second half,
the portrayal in the UK. I think our local indigenous programmes
are very good.
Q112 Chairman: Personally, I would
concur with that. Would you all agree with that?
Ms Kirby: I think it is a chicken
and egg. If you have the production ability the programmes will
follow, and equally the reverse is true. You almost have to put
the commissions in Northern Ireland and the talent will come.
Ms Waddell: I think we would argue
the talent is already here.
Q113 Chairman: I am just very concerned
that those of my constituents who do not have the privilege that
I have of coming here frequently and regularly have a very different
impression of Northern Ireland, not the one that I know to be
the truth. Because most people derive their information these
days from either television or the Internet and things being on-line
I do believe this is a great challenge and a great opportunity
for all of you who have influence, whether it is as journalists
or producers, over the transmitted television programme and subsequent
Internet use and so on. Would you agree with that?
Ms Waddell: Absolutely. We welcome
this Committee because this is a very big step forward for us.
Chairman: Good.
Q114 Lady Hermon: Could I just ask
you about the morale. What about the morale of journalists in
the BBC, UTV and producers? You seem terribly enthusiastic about
what you do but I heard you say that there is speed-dating of
commissioners coming to Northern Ireland. It has a completely
different meaning but leaves a lasting impression. It has been
a very interesting session, I have to say.
Mr Dooley: First of all, I believe
that morale in the media is generally very low because there has
been a dumbing down. I would be quite critical of standards. The
real difficulty in that area is there are less journalists and,
therefore, less time to do the things you want to do and many
journalists find themselves in the position of fire fighting.
There is more and more demanded in less time. Quite frankly, forget
about portraying what is happening at a wider level in the United
Kingdom, there is very little of what is called "fresh air"
journalism, ie the opportunity to go out onto the street, a greater
reliance on spin doctoring, on media releases, lack of time and
resources for analysis. That is very, very demoralising. If I
were to identify what may be outside the scope of this meeting
in answer to your question, morale is low everywhere because we
are in a recession and times are bad, and we understand that,
but in terms of the specifics of journalism the real lack of morale
is the denial of the opportunity to tell the story of what is
going on and have the time and space in broadcasting, in print
or on-line to give people the time to give the long version of
their story. That is a really depressing aspect of the media.
I am sorry to end on a depressing note.
Q115 Chairman: That is very helpful.
Frankly, I find that a very positive answer because I share your
view of dumbing down, that we live in the era of the news clip
and the sound bite and what people both need and deserve is more
extensive coverage and to be treated as intelligent people. It
is a paradox that in an age where we are all the time talking
about education and increasing the capacity of people to understand
that we give them colour supplement civilisation, and I find that
rather depressing. I am glad you said what you said. Does anybody
else want to add to Mr Dooley's answer on that?
Ms Waddell: Morale amongst producers
has been low due to the lack of network commissions in the last
two years and then we were hit by the recession. BBC Northern
Ireland has had a consistent commissioning policy over the last
18 months and we are just coming out of that at the moment. It
has been a tough time. Equally, we are beginning to see improvements.
There are commissions there and we are all willing to get to the
table, so this should be a different picture.
Ms Simpson: Partly because the
morale was so low there was a lack of engagement with broadcasting
and producers. As Jannine has highlighted, there was a problem
with the commissioning so there was no commissioning happening.
Even throughout 2007 there was only ten hours of independent production
coverage across the whole PSB network. That was ten hours across
a whole year.
Ms Waddell: Less for 2008.
Q116 Chairman: That is about what
the BBC presents on snooker in two weeks.
Ms Simpson: If you talk about
portrayal, there was not really any portrayal throughout the last
two years of anything on Northern Ireland. There is a glimmer
of hope now. We have spoken to the BBC about engagement and we
have agreed to set up a working group with the BBC and independent
sector to try and work through strategies and look at the problems
and work together on that. That is a good step forward. The BBC
has just done their commissioning round. There is starting to
be a glimmer of hope, but it has been quite a depressing time
over the last two years and morale has been down. With all the
independent companies here, they do not take it lying down and
have managed to support their companies by going out to international
markets as well. Also, the PSB is a really important side. Not
only does it have the highest income for them, so they pay a lot
more for the commissions, but because of the terms of trade they
have the right to then sell those programmes internationally and
recoup and make more than just on that one programme.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed,
it has been extremely helpful evidence and we will certainly be
studying it carefully when we get our transcripts. You will have
those sent to you very shortly. Thank you for saying you would
supply some of those figures, that would be very helpful. If there
are any other points that you feel you would have liked to have
got across and when you see the transcript feel you did not make
a point sufficiently strongly, please make sure that you tell
our clerk because we will be aiming to produce this report in
the very early part of next year which means that there is a little
more time. Thank you very much indeed.
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