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CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 78-v
House of COMMONS
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE
NORTHERN IRELAND AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
CROSS-BORDER
CO-OPERATION
Wednesday 11 February 2009
PAUL GOGGINS MP and MR PETER MAY
Evidence heard in Public Questions 312 - 358
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
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This is a corrected
transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The
transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee,
and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members
and others.
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2.
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The transcript
is an approved formal record of these proceedings. It will be printed in due
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Oral Evidence
Taken
before the Northern Ireland
Affairs Committee
on Wednesday 11 February 2009
Members present
Sir Patrick Cormack, in the Chair
Christopher Fraser
Mr John Grogan
Mr Stephen Hepburn
Lady Hermon
Dr Alasdair McDonnell
Mr Denis Murphy
Stephen Pound
Mrs Iris Robinson
David Simpson
________________
Memoranda submitted by the Northern Ireland Office
Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Paul Goggins MP, Minister of
State, Mr Peter May, Director of Policing and Security, Northern Ireland
Office, gave evidence.
Q312 Chairman:
Minister, on behalf of the Committee I would
like to welcome you and your officials.
We are always very glad to have you before the Committee. We have much appreciated, and we would like
to put this on the record again, the co-operation we have received from the Northern
Ireland Office in general, but from you in particular. We value the work that you have done. That does make it all the more unfortunate
that I have to begin with some criticism.
We have just today been given an indication that all stages of the
Northern Ireland Police and Justice Bill are to be taken on the floor of the
House on 25 February. We feel very,
very upset and concerned and, indeed, aggrieved about this, Minister, and for a
number of reasons. First of all, it is
known that this Committee always meets on a Wednesday. Second, your office has known for some time
that Lord Eames and Mr Bradley are due to give evidence on their very, very
important report, into which this Committee is conducting an inquiry, on that
day and, clearly, if there is Northern Ireland business on the floor of the House,
the Committee could not meet, because all Members would wish to be there and
many of them would wish to participate in that debate. Our third reason is that this cannot by any
stretch of the imagination be construed as emergency legislation. The House is not sitting next week and the
Committee would have expected the courtesy of a briefing on this bill and
an explanation as to why it is necessary to do all stages on one day. I am sorry to begin with a salvo of rather
critical questions, but we are very annoyed about this. That view stretches right across the
Committee and I wonder what you can tell us.
Paul Goggins: Thank you for the warm
welcome, Sir Patrick! I can tell you
that there are a number of circles to be squared in all this.
Q313 Chairman:
Clearly we are not one of them.
Paul Goggins: We cannot proceed with
legislation at Westminster, which will be very
important legislation in terms of moving to the devolution of policing and
justice, until we have agreement amongst the parties in Northern Ireland. Equally, we do not want to delay, so we have
to try to get the timing right. I have
heard your criticisms and concerns. I
can promise the Committee that I will take those criticisms and concerns back
to the department for some discussion, and I will personally come back to you
with some response to that. You make the
point - and you have made it previously and it is important from your point of
view that you go on making it - that you do your business on a Wednesday. I know there have been other occasions when
there have been side committees and so on which make life difficult, so that is
a very timely reminder.
Q314 Chairman:
Indeed.
Paul Goggins: I will take those comments
back. I can tell from the way the points
were presented that it is a common view across the whole Committee.
Q315 Lady
Hermon: Minister, I am delighted to see you here this
afternoon. Could I just check whether
assurances or promises have been given already to Sinn Fein about the timing of
this legislation being introduced into Westminster?
Paul Goggins: There have been considerable
and ongoing discussions which reflect the point I made earlier, that we cannot
proceed until there is agreement, but once the necessary agreements are in
place we move as quickly as possible because, whilst it is not an emergency in
the way that perhaps previous legislation in relation to Northern Ireland has
been, it is urgent that we get on with this, and therefore that particular date
was selected as the date for doing the bill.
Q316 Lady
Hermon: Minister, might I just press you on that.
Paul Goggins: Of course.
Q317 Lady
Hermon: Do Sinn Fein already know that 25 February has
been selected for that bill?
Paul Goggins: Everybody knows that 25 ----
Q318 Chairman:
We
did not know.
Paul Goggins: No, I mean that everybody
knows now that that is the date.
Q319 Lady
Hermon: Have Sinn Fein been given an undertaking that
the legislation would be introduced on 25 February?
Paul Goggins: Obviously, knowing that we
were close to an agreement, we had to move to try to secure a date when we
could take this legislation through ----
Q320 Chairman:
Minister, I have been looking at this
document, which I had not seen. It does
say "provisional" on the top, and business is always provisional until
confirmed. Only this week we have had an
example of the change of business. The
Political Parties and Elections Bill, which we took this week, was originally
down for last week and it was changed - I am sure for very good reason, I make
no criticism of that - and I note that the second day of the Political Parties
and Elections Bill is down for Monday 2 March.
Even if there were to be a delay of a few days, I can see no reason
at all why those two dates could not be switched. I do think that it is not until tomorrow that
the Leader of the House announces, and even when she does announce she always
begins her announcement by saying the "provisional business". I am grateful to you for what you have said
about taking this back with you, but I really would like you to convey the fact
that this Committee, which has always tried to behave constructively and
responsibly and has never behaved in a partisan political way - and you know
that - really does feel that this is insulting to this Committee to put this
business on at this short notice and on the day when it is well-known we are
meeting and that we have Lord Eames and Mr Bradley before us.
Paul Goggins: Your own comments, Sir Patrick,
indicate that it would not just be within the gift of the Northern Ireland office to change
the business of the House.
Q321 Chairman:
Of
course.
Paul Goggins: That is why I will take all
of this back, with the words that you have said ringing in my ears, and I will
come back to you.
Q322 Chairman:
I am
very grateful for that.
Paul Goggins: The Secretary of State and I
both appreciate that on these matters it is important to be constructive and to
try to get everybody in the same place, because it is just very, very important
in terms of quite sensitive issues. That has always been appreciated. Certainly I am sorry if, on this occasion,
that has not been followed through, but I will come back to you and quickly.
Q323 Chairman:
I am
very grateful. Thank you very much
indeed. We do hope, Minister, you will
be able to give us some positive news very soon. Perhaps when you do convey these views you
could even make the suggestion I have made about that switch in dates. If promises have been given of an early introduction
of the bill, a two- or three-day delay does not make much difference. Minister, could we turn to the issues that we
have been looking at, as you know, for our current inquiry, which is cross-border
co-operation. We went to the Republic a
couple of weeks ago. We saw the Minister
for Justice, we saw the Commissioner of An Garda Siochana, we saw the Foreign
Minister and a number of others, and we had very good co-operation from
them. Both there and from people, such
as the Attorney General, at the dinner which the Ambassador arranged for the
Committee on the evening of the Monday we were in Dublin, we heard the constant refrain that
relations had never been closer or more constructive. Would you like to comment on that?
Paul Goggins: I absolutely concur with that
view. Dermot Ahern, the Minister for
Justice, and I are in regular contact on a range of issues. Commissioner Murphy I know is in close
liaison with the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland. It is the exchange of information day by day,
of course, which helps to support operational policing but it is also the wider
and strategic interests which are discussed, whether that is in terms of
organised crime or the management of sex offenders and a whole range of
issues. My responsibilities really cover
the areas both of policing and of criminal justice. As you know from your own inquiries, there is
a range of formal agreements and protocols covering both of those issues, but
they are very, very closely related. It
is certainly my experience in the time I have been in Northern Ireland, which is two and
half years/approaching three years now, that the relationships have improved
and the co-operation is excellent. I think that people
have a can-do mentality, and if there is an issue or a problem to be addressed
then people get on with it.
Q324 Chairman:
Following on from what you have just said
about your meeting with the Justice Minister, these meetings at ministerial
level take place fairly frequently, and you find them constructive and helpful
in every way.
Paul Goggins: I do indeed. There is a requirement under the inter-governmental
agreement on co-operation in criminal justice matters that I meet the Minister
at least once a year formally to review the various working groups and so on
that we have established between the two jurisdictions, but on a more regular
basis than that I meet my opposite number and speak on the telephone as and
when required. I certainly get from
Minister Ahern and, indeed, Commissioner Murphy a very strong sense,
particularly in relation to cross-border crime, that we have a shared purpose
to deal with this and to deal with it effectively. I might say that I know fuel fraud has been a
particular interest of this Committee for a long period of time. In the course of last year I established a
new Fuel Fraud Enforcement Group within the Organised Crime Task Force, and for
the first time ever we had the Revenue Commissioners and the Criminal Assets Bureau,
which of course involves the Garda, as part of that Enforcement Group. They are absolutely working together at the
strategic level, the intelligence level, and the operational level, and in
recent months there have been very good outcomes from that work. That really is the kind of sense of will that
is there now, respecting the fact that there are separate jurisdictions,
different legislation, different powers, but they are absolutely determined to
work together.
Q325 Chairman:
How
often do you find you are speaking to your counterpart?
Paul Goggins: It would not be on a set
basis. I spoke to him on the telephone a
few weeks ago now in relation to one or two matters and a little while before
that I met him for one of our regular meetings in relation to the criminal
justice issues.
Q326 Chairman:
We
have had three Ministers of Justice during the time that you have been occupying
your position. Has there been any
particular change, or has it just been a consistently good relationship
regardless of the people?
Paul Goggins: Consistently good. You are quite right: I am on my third Justice
Minister in terms of the Irish authorities now.
Last year we had two of these formal meetings in relation to the
criminal justice agreement; the year before there had been one. I think there is a sense that we need to do
this on as regular a basis as possible.
Of course, beyond the ministerial meetings and those formal sessions
that we have there is a good deal of working going on, as I say, at the
strategic and the operational level all the time.
Q327 Chairman:
Are
there any things that could be done to improve it?
Paul Goggins: I am sure there are. I am sure there are, although I noted that in
his evidence to you the Chief Constable for Northern Ireland, Sir Hugh Orde,
spoke about the level of co-operation between the different police services as
being "seamless" - I think that was the word he used - and there is a sense now
of getting on in a very practical way to deal with issues. I am sure there will be a range of issues. The various working groups that we have established
under the criminal justice arrangement cover sex offenders, and we are
constantly searching and working to make sure that any potential loopholes
there can be closed down. We have a
working group on forensic science, for example.
That is very important too, especially where they may be able to develop
a certain specialism, we may be able to develop a different specialism, and
then we can share the benefits of that.
Q328 Chairman:
At
the moment there is nothing more important than policing and criminal justice
in the context of both Northern Ireland
and the island of
Ireland. At the moment it is a co-operation
between the UK Government and the Government of the Republic which you are
describing. What are the implications
for the devolution of policing and justice?
What changes do you think are likely to happen as a result of that?
Paul Goggins: It was interesting that one
of the recommendations by the Assembly and Executive Review Committee in their
first report on devolution and policing and justice was that the inter-governmental
agreement we have on criminal justice matters should remain in place beyond the
devolution of policing and justice powers.
I think that was a very welcome recognition of the importance of that co-operation
at ministerial and official level. There
is one issue to be resolved there, which is of course that that is an agreement
between the British Government and the Irish Government and it empowers the
British Minister - at the current time, myself - to co-operate with my
counterpart. When we have a devolved
Justice Minister, then obviously that situation changes, but we are confident we
can deal with that through an exchange of letters between government, so
that there is a seamless transition beyond devolution. Then, of course, as the Committee
recommended, there would be an opportunity to review that arrangement in due
course, and then it will be for the two authorities to work out any new
arrangement between themselves.
Certainly, that will carry on through and beyond devolution. In terms of policing, there are very, very
good relationships at chief constable level.
Q329 Chairman:
We
have seen both of them. There is one
final question from me at this point, and it goes back to the issue I referred
to at the beginning. The bill that is
going to be brought forward shortly - and we hope not on the date indicated but
shortly - what precisely will that do?
Paul Goggins: There is an agreement, as the
Committee will be aware, going back to November, between the First Minister and
----
Q330 Chairman:
The
17 November agreement.
Paul Goggins: Yes. Part of that agreement is for a model that
will be time-limited. That provision is
not within the current legislation that is already in place following earlier
legislation before this House. That is
one issue that will need to be dealt with.
There are a number of other issues, including judicial appointments,
which have been under discussion as well. They will need to be dealt with, as
well, within that bill. Sir Patrick, I
got carried away with myself there. Peter
May, Director of Policing and Security in the Northern Ireland Office, would
like to add something on the bill.
Mr May: The Assembly and Executive
Review Committee have recently completed the second report. That was approved by the Assembly very recently. The bill will look to give effect to those
conclusions reached by the Assembly that require primary legislation in the
sorts of areas the Minister has described.
Q331 Mr
Grogan: What threat is posed by the continued cross-border
criminal activities of the Continuity and Real IRA? What mechanisms are used at governmental
level to try to deal with that?
Paul Goggins: Dissident Republicans still
do pose a significant threat, particularly to the police. They have made it clear in their own way that
they wish to kill police officers.
I know that this is something that is a very high priority for the
Chief Constable, the Secretary of State, and indeed myself, and we meet
regularly and review the position. Only
a few days ago, of course, there was a device left in a car at Castle Welland. That would have wrought havoc, had it gone
off, and it would have killed many people.
That is the scale of the threat that they pose. Is it a threat that we can deal with? Yes, I believe it is. It is very important that all the law-enforcement
agencies and security personnel work together to that end. The Committee knows from its own inquiries
and investigations that the coming together of organised criminality and
Dissident Republicans is a lethal mix and, therefore, on all fronts we have to
deal with it. The Organised Crime Task
Force is there to deal with it, but also the police and security services are
there to deal with the threat posed by Dissident Republicans as well. They have
no base in the community, they have no support, but they have that intent and
we are absolutely determined to deal with them.
I have to say there is a high level of co-operation between the Irish
authorities and ourselves on this. A
great deal of intelligence and information is exchanged, and even at the
operational level there is very good co-operation in this area as in others.
Q332 Mrs
Robinson: Thank you. We had comments by Sir Hugh Orde
that the terrorist threat is at its highest in this its sixth year. Can you tell me how many PSNI members and,
indeed, prison officers over the six years have had to move home because they
have been targeted by the Dissident Republicans? Has the fact that the army installations have
been removed from the border assisted the dissidents in coming across both
jurisdictions to carry out their vile deeds?
Paul Goggins: I could not give you a
precise figure this afternoon for the number of prison officers and police
officers who have had to move, but I will happily send that information to you
and to the Committee.
Q333 Chairman:
Thank
you.
Paul Goggins: There are two particular ways
in which people who are under that kind of threat can be assisted. One is for them to move house completely - and
obviously that is a very big step for anybody to take. There is also within my department the Limited
Home Protection Scheme which can assist people who face a severe or substantial
threat from terrorists. Indeed, we still
operate that system, and daily I am involved in decisions in relation to
that. It is deeply regrettable that
those kinds of arrangements still have to be in place when so much of Northern Ireland
is normal, is moving forward, is peaceful, and is ambitious for its own
future. I see every day the
determination of people not to give in to that threat that still remains but to
deal with it and overcome it. As I say,
Dissident Republicans have no support base, they have no political
support. As I said in answer to John
Grogan's question, they are largely involved in criminality of all kinds and we
need to bear down upon them.
Q334 Mrs
Robinson: Have the installations being removed from the
border helped?
Paul Goggins: Obviously those installations
being removed was a remarkable and important step forward in terms of Northern
Ireland and its journey to more peaceful times and has been widely
welcomed. But clearly because of the
threat that such people pose, especially where they use the border in efforts
to try to assist themselves in what they are doing, it is very important that
law enforcement, north and south, does work together. With modern communications system and the
determination and the will to work in the so-called police to police way that
they do, I think that all of these things are covered. I can say to the Committee that I know from
my own knowledge of certain cases, not all of which I would want to reveal here
this afternoon, that there is active ongoing surveillance and monitoring of
people who move south-north/north-south on an ongoing basis. That is incredibly helpful and I think has
saved situations from occurring that we would all have regretted.
Q335 Mr
Murphy: Minister, to continue from my colleague John
Grogan's point, whilst you have explained the situation as you see it with the
Dissident Republicans, I wonder whether you would comment on what threat, if any,
you see from the Loyalist Paramilitaries.
I am sure you will appreciate that the extension that went through the
House two weeks ago was not universally well-received and I am wondering
whether you see that as a continuing threat or a diminishing one to loyalists.
Paul Goggins: Let me deal, first of all,
with the issue of the extension of the decommissioning amnesty order, which I
know was controversial. A good deal of
discussion took place between the political parties here, as well as in Northern Ireland
and with other community representatives too.
I was pleased last Thursday when the Committee broadly ended up in the
same place, which was to send out a very, very strong message to Loyalist Paramilitaries
that there is no place for their weapons in Northern Ireland, there is no
legitimacy for their so-called protective stance on behalf of their
communities. Most of their communities
do not want such goings on either. That
is the message and, very clearly, unless there is significant progress in these
next six months, and significant progress means actions not just words, then
the Secretary of State has made it clear that when we come back after the
summer we will move immediately to end the amnesty order that we are seeking to
renew at the moment. It is very
important that the message goes out that it is over. They have one last chance now to use this
additional route to get rid of weapons from the community and in February next
year, whatever happens, it is gone for good.
We will not be seeking primary legislation to review the decommissioning
arrangements beyond that. It will be over
next February. This is one last
chance. It is very clear that, whilst
the Loyalist Paramilitaries do not pose the same kind of threat to the police
that the Dissident Republicans pose in a very stated way, they still do pose a
very serious threat, not least to their own communities. Many of the attacks and lives lost are within
their own communities and are the product of feuds and so on. So much of it now is interlaced with
organised crime of all kinds, and it really is important that the weapons are
handed over, removed, and if they will not do it then the police will move in
and take them, where they have information and knowledge that they exist, and
people will be brought to book. It is so
important that message goes out. What is
very welcome is that some of the loudest voices in this debate have come from
within loyalist communities themselves.
They have made it clear that there is no room for this and it is time it
ended.
Q336 David
Simpson: I will be brief, Sir Patrick, and I thank you
for letting me in. The Minister will be
aware, when we talk about Loyalist Paramilitaries and Dissident Republicans and
the threat that is still there, of the murder that took place in Londonderry last night.
Is the Minister in a position to give us any information on at?
Paul Goggins: I cannot give you any more
information than you will already be aware of.
A man was murdered. Shot. Obviously the loss of any life is deeply
regrettable. The police have started an
urgent investigation into that and no doubt they will update us in due course. Loss of life in those circumstances, wherever
it is, whether it is in Northern Ireland, whether it is Northern England,
wherever it is, is deeply to be regretted, whatever the cause of it, whoever is
involved in it, and those responsible need to be brought to justice.
Q337 Mr
Hepburn: Whilst it is very evident why we need cross-border
co-operation as far as Republican threats are concerned, where would cross
border co-operation come into effect as far as Loyalist Paramilitaries are
concerned? It is important as part of
the Republican thing, because the nationalist areas are around the border and
so you can understand why you need cross-border co-operation there, but where
does it come into effect as far as the loyalists are concerned?
Paul Goggins: It would not. The cross-border crime would be almost
exclusively related to Dissident Republicans.
Q338 Chairman:
Only in
so far as there is some collusion between these groups on things like
smuggling.
Paul Goggins: Yes. Indeed, in one of the operations of the Fuel Fraud
Enforcement Group back in September last year there was a direct link between
people who were smuggling and laundering fuel and those who were on the
receiving end of it.
Q339 Chairman:
Quite.
Paul Goggins: I think that is true. I think that goes to the heart of it, that
the main objective of the majority of these people is to make money out of
illegal activity: they are criminals.
But certainly in terms of the cross-border law enforcement as we would
generally regard it, it would not really be an issue.
Q340 Chairman:
Perhaps I could move you on. You have talked
about signs and you have talked about the need for real progress. This
Committee has taken a particular interest in the Paul Quinn murder - that
really horrible crime. We have had the
privilege - and I use the word very deliberately - of meeting the Quinn family
on a couple of occasions, once in Belfast
and once in Crossmaglen, and of maintaining, through one of our Members in
particular, Dr McDonnell, a contact with them. Arrests have been made but, as of today,
unless there has been some development today, no charges have been
preferred. Of course the test of co-operation
is not just that officers go out together, which is itself encouraging and a
great advance, but that criminals are brought to book. Can you give us any more news on Quinn at the
moment?
Paul Goggins: I cannot give you any
information in relation to anybody having been charged because nobody has
been. You are quite right, there have
been arrests. The PSNI I think have
arrested nine people. They have done
this under their own powers and within their own jurisdiction but they have
done it very much hand in hand with the Garda, who have been obviously
conducting their own investigations and in many ways have taken the lead. But there are separate investigations going
on in Northern Ireland
and the Republic. It was a despicable
murder, and it is regrettable that so far nobody has been charged. In a sense, we see the limits still of the
current situation. In order to bring
people to justice, we require the people who know who these people are to come
forward and make statements and give evidence.
That remains a strong plea from me and I am sure from every Member of
this Committee.
Q341 Chairman:
Very
much so.
Paul Goggins: That still needs to happen in
greater measure than it has so far. In
terms of the level of co-operation between the two police services, senior
investigating officer to senior investigating officer, it has been very
effective. It is also clear from some of
the work that has come behind the Quinn murder investigation, at the behest of
the permanent secretaries in the Department of Justice and also in the Northern
Ireland Office, that both the PSNI and the Garda, the office of the Director of
Public Prosecutions and the Public Prosecution Service in Northern Ireland and
the respective departments, have come together to do some work which I think
will bear much fruit in terms of developing protocols for how to conduct cross-border
investigations in the most effective way.
Certainly I would be very happy to share with the Committee the fruits
of some of that work when it is available.
I am thinking particularly of the new manuals which are being developed
which will guide officers who are conducting investigations. I hope that in April or May, sometime around
then, those manuals will be available and I would be happy to share them with
you.
Q342 Mr
Murphy: Minister, thank you for your comments and thank
you for your information shared with us.
The most heartening thing for me was the very visible co-operation
between the Garda and the PSNI in the aftermath of the Paul Quinn murder. For my money, and this is confirmed by
talking to people on the ground, it dramatically increased public confidence,
not just from the two forces being joined to work together but the fact of the policing
generally in that area. What scope do
you see for that type of visible co-operation in other similar incidents? Hopefully, we do not have a similar incident,
but in other circumstances where there is a cross-border dimension do you think
that exercise can be repeated?
Paul Goggins: I think it can. The criminal needs to see and the community
needs to see that, whilst the police services are different and operate within
their own jurisdiction, where there is criminality on the border then they work
together and in a highly visible way and that nobody has a problem with
that. I think that is a very, very
important statement, both about where we are in terms of the political
development but, also, in terms of the prime responsibility of making sure that
people are safe and that crime is dealt with.
I think that is very welcome. There
are many other opportunities to extend the benefits of that. I have mentioned the work that has been going
on in relation to developing these manuals of good practice and so on in
relation to investigations undertaken by the police. There is also the issue - and I know, again,
the Committee have an interest in this - about the exchange of personnel, so
that police officers, north and south, can operate within each other's teams,
albeit not necessarily with the full powers of a police officer. With the cultural change that can happen
because people share their different understandings and different perceptions, enormous
strides forward can be made. At many
different levels I think that often highly visible level of co-operation is bearing
real fruit.
Q343 Stephen
Pound: I hope that does not dilute the significance
of what he said. I appreciate there
are problems with the Common Travel Area and I appreciate there are other
issues, but SOCA are telling us certainly that Article 41 of Schengen would be
invaluable, they could really use it. What
exactly is HMG's position on Schengen at the moment?
Paul Goggins: I would certainly be very
happy to discuss it with Minister Ahern at the next opportunity I have to meet
him. It is interesting that you say SOCA
say it would be very beneficial to them.
The Chief Constable has never made that case to me at all. The issue with Article 41, of course, is that
it would require both to sign for it to be applicable in practice, because,
necessarily, we share the same land border.
In a very practical way, Sir Hugh Orde and his people have sought, with
their counterparts in Ireland,
just to get on and make co-operative policing work in practice. He has his own direct contact obviously with
the Commissioner, but at local and operational levels there is very good
communication between police officers north and south. Frankly, if somebody had committed a serious
offence in Northern Ireland and
they went across the border, then you can be sure that the level of
communication and co-operation between the law enforcement agencies would mean
that they were immediately dealt with in Ireland. At a practical level, for getting on with it,
I would be very happy to discuss with Minister Ahern his observations following
your discussion with him but I can say that nobody from law enforcement in Northern Ireland
has ever made the case to me that we need to sign Article 41.
Q344 Stephen
Pound: Earlier on you referred to a can-do attitude
in this area. I respect that and I think
all of us would But it seems to me that
we have an unofficial protocol emerging, not just between Sir Hugh Orde and
Fachtna Murphy but on the whole cross-border area. It worries me that if we have an unofficial
bilateral emerging here, that will be challengeable at some stage and we may
lose a case at some stage which is brought to us. Surely the relationship between the two countries
should be formalised. I do not speak for
the Committee and I would not presume to do so, but I would have thought that
to have a Schengen agreement covering the land border could only be
beneficial in terms of law enforcement.
Can you perhaps let us share your views on that?
Paul Goggins: Yes, there is development of a
bilateral approach, but both the PSNI and the Garda have to operate within the
powers that they have. They are not creating
a new set of powers on that kind of bilateral basis, they have to operate
within that. Even if we sign Article 41,
they would still have to work out some kind of protocol or method of using the
powers that come with it, so there would still be the practical application of
that and, frankly, I think they are just getting on with it so that they do co-operate
in an effective way.
Q345 Stephen
Pound: It is a protocol that exists without a legally
defensive template and that is what slightly concerns me. As we enter into ever
more litigious times, I can see a defence coming up in which we could say
that this was just two police officers getting on with it and it would not be a
sustainable defence.
Paul Goggins: No, but they have to operate
within very clear powers. There are
limitations on powers of arrest, on powers of questioning and so on. You have put your finger on an important
point, which has been the subject of the seminar and the ongoing discussions
between the criminal justice agencies north and south of the border, and it is
very important that where evidence is gathered in one jurisdiction that it
would be sustainable in a court in the other jurisdiction. For example, we have PACE that operates in Northern Ireland,
which has all kinds of rules about people being advised of their right to legal
advice, rest periods, and so on. If the
questioning and the evidence gathering is done in Ireland but then the case eventually
comes to court in Northern Ireland, it is very important that the same rules of
evidence operate right from the very beginning of the investigation, otherwise
we could lose a case if different standards were deployed in Ireland
rather than Northern Ireland. It is very
important that we have the same level of adherence to standards and rules in
either jurisdiction so that it could be applied in courts either side of the
border. I do not know whether the
Committee has been able to study the conviction in relation to the murders of
Mr Jones and Mr Burns in 2007.
These were two brutal murders which took place in Belfast.
Arrests were made in Dublin, and a man
brought to justice in Dublin
is now serving a life sentence. It seems
to me that if by the level of co-operation we have we can sustain that level of
justice in the face of a horrendous crime, then that should encourage us
that these systems do work.
Q346 Chairman:
We
heard a graphic account from Commissioner Murphy, and, yes, that is most
encouraging. We would be interested to
hear the result of your conversation with the Minister for Justice.
Paul Goggins: I shall report back.
Q347 Lady
Hermon: Following on from the evidence you have just
given to the Committee, I am mindful of the fact that earlier in your evidence
- and I did take the words down carefully - you said that potential loopholes
in cross-border criminality should be closed down. In any evidence submitted to us by the Police
Service of Northern Ireland they have recommended that the current legislation,
in particular the Criminal Justice Act 1975 and the corresponding legislation
in the Republic
of Ireland, needs to be
updated. It did cover the case to which
you have just alluded, the case of murder, but PACE now would like that
legislation extended so that, if a criminal offence is committed in one
jurisdiction, the arrest and investigation can be in a different
jurisdiction. That legislation has to be
updated. Do you agree with that?
Paul Goggins: I have seen the exchanges
about it. I have to say, again, that
PSNI have not come directly to me to make that case but I think there are
certainly grounds to reflect on and to review the position. The case is made very well that this legislation
was passed in 1975 and reflected those particular times. There are forms of serious crime which were
not possible then; for example, crimes perpetrated through the internet. There are also other crimes, like human
trafficking, which certainly were not prevalent in the 1970s. Whether they should be added to the schedule
is, I think, a legitimate question. I am
sure the Committee will have things to say about this but I am sympathetic to
having a look to see whether that schedule should be updated in the way that Lady
Sylvia has indicated. It is not a commitment
that we will, but I am certainly aware of the concerns of the PSNI and of the
concerns as you have expressed them just now Lady Sylvia, and I am open to look
at that matter very carefully.
Q348 Lady
Hermon: Under the agreement about criminal justice,
which was thrashed out, as I recall, at Leeds Castle,
one of the key areas was looking at sexual offences committed in one
jurisdiction, where it is very easy for the perpetrator to escape across the
border. Surely, Minister, even at this stage
you should be able to make the commitment that offences such as rape, other
sexual offences and, indeed, as you have just mentioned, human trafficking, should
easily be added to that particular schedule.
Paul Goggins: As I say, I am very happy to
look again at the list of offences that are scheduled to see whether there is a
case for others to be added. Given the
passage of time and given the high prevalence of certain offences, it is
something that I am sympathetic to and I am prepared to look at.
Q349 David
Simpson: Minister, the Organised Crime Task Force was
established, as you know, in 2000. Whilst
it has had some successes - £35 million worth of criminal assets, illegal drugs
or whatever - there is a very high level of frustration among the legitimate
businesses, whether they be in Northern Ireland
or whether they be in the Republic
of Ireland, who are
trying to abide by the law and run a legitimate business. Whenever we see programmes - and I think one was
broadcast this week in relation to money laundering or fuel laundering or
whatever - these guys lose a lorry or they lose a load of fuel and it is so
lucrative that it does not really matter to them because they can replace it
very quickly. There is a frustration
amongst legitimate businesses that these guys, if they are caught, might lose
a vehicle or whatever but they continue.
Someone selling drugs, if they lose a batch of drugs, will always
replace that and get back into the lucrative market they were in. What more can be done on the border? Business is very difficult at the moment
throughout the whole of the United
Kingdom.
Economically things are difficult.
It is frustrating, because if someone who has a legitimate business
sees that others just lose a lorry or whatever, it entices them not to abide by
the law. What more can be done to
tighten that up?
Paul Goggins: A couple of things: I think
it is very important that we keep on getting across the public message
that people who buy what they might regard as a cheap deal, whether it is
a pair of trainers or a pair of jeans, or whatever, something that might
on the face of it be more affordable, they may well be paying money over to
organised criminal gangs who of course will use that money for dangerous
enterprises that could lead to loss of life.
That could be the selling on of drugs or even of weapons. We therefore have to get this message across
to the public that you might think you are getting a cheap deal, but you are
handing money over to organised criminal gangs who will do dreadful things in
your community. We have tried through
poster campaigns and all the rest of it to get that message across. I know that you, David, and others around the
room also tried to get that message across as well. People also want to see arrests made and
assets seized. That is a very, very high
order of priority for me. I am pleased,
looking at the successes that have come out of the Fuel Fraud Enforcement Group.
Yes, I am interested in how many
thousands of litres of illicit fuel have been seized, yes, I am interested in
how many lorries have been seized and all that, but I am interested in how many
people are arrested, because it is when their activities are curtailed that we
can reduce that.
Q350 Chairman:
But
we are interested too, Minister, in the punishments that are then meted
out. One of the things that has come
across from our evidence sessions and informal conversations on both sides of
the border has been the sense of frustration on the part of diligent officials
and officers who have worked exceptionally hard sometimes to secure a conviction,
only to find that the sentence which is handed out is derisory. That is something that really has come across
when we have talked to people who are interested and concerned about the amount
of illicit alcohol that is smuggled, fuel and tobacco products, many of them
far more dangerous than normal tobacco products because they have been doctored
and so on. These people who are guilty of these offences are not perpetrating
victimless crimes; they are perpetrating crimes that have many victims. I do not know whether you share the sense of
frustration that it is very clear many officials feel, that hard work in
securing convictions is poorly regarded and reflected in the punishments that
ensue.
Paul Goggins: I have a golden rule, which is
that I am here to help to make the policy and bring in the legislation and the
powers, and the judiciary have a job to do, which is to use those powers to
sentence people. I do not wish,
particularly in relation to individual cases, to tread on their toes but of
course I have a great interest in how those powers are used. If, for example, it was necessary to extend
those powers or to amend those powers, then I would want to be in a position to
do so, and so I pay very close attention.
I know there are concerns, and I am sure the Committee will make its
views known at the end of this particular inquiry that you are conducting; I
think it is important, however, to look at sentences in the round. Where, for
example, somebody gets a suspended sentence and the general view might be that
they should have gone straight to prison, it is also important to see what else
might have been part and parcel of the outcome at court. Did they end up paying their taxes and paying
their duty? Did they end up having their
assets seized? Were they made the
subject of a serious crime prevention order?
The first of those in the United Kingdom
was given out in Northern
Ireland.
We have to look in the round at sentencing, but I can assure the
Committee that I give this very close attention, not least for the moment.
Q351 Lady
Hermon: Minister, you will be well aware of the very
good working relationship between the Criminal Assets Bureau (CAB) in the Republic of Ireland
and the former Assets Recovery Agency (ARA)
in Northern Ireland.. It was swallowed up, it was merged with SOCA
last year. How many successful
prosecutions have been brought by SOCA in relation to cross-border criminality
since it took over responsibility from the Assets Recovery Agency?
Paul Goggins: I would need to write to Lady
Sylvia with a precise answer to that question.
I can say - and I made this very clear before, during, and after
the merger of the Assets Recovery Agency with SOCA - that it is very important
that in Northern Ireland we are able to commit the same level of resources, the
same degree of priority in Northern Ireland as we have done in the past, and
that we should not be changed in that as a result of the merger, and that we
should not, for example, be hide bound by targets or thresholds set elsewhere
in the United Kingdom that may not be appropriate. What matters is tackling and
dealing with the harm that is done by organised crime. Even taking out a small player may be
beneficial in terms of the impact on the wider community. That remains in place, but, since the merger
in particular, I set out a two-year asset recovery action plan with some
very ambitious targets, not just in relation to assets seized and frozen but
assets recovered; in other words, what comes out at the end of the
process. That is what people are really
interested in.
Q352 Lady
Hermon: Yes.
Paul Goggins: Also, I am seeking to get
across the message to all law-enforcement agencies that it is not just the job
of SOCA to do the work of asset recovery.
It is the job of PSNI, it is the job of HMRC, and it is the job clearly
now of SOCA. In the future it could well
be the job of the Public Prosecution Service as well, albeit they would need to
build their capacity to do civil recovery work.
The targets I am setting are not for individual agencies, they are for
all the agencies together. I can confirm
that in the action plan for 2008-09 I am saying a minimum of £6.2 million,
up to possibly £10 million as the target for assets recovered in the current
financial year. In the first six months
we achieved £2.799 million, which was just below what we needed to have
achieved to be on track for that. I am
determined that we will get up to and achieve those targets because it is very
important in terms of taking the assets away from criminals so that they do not
have the working capital to use for their enterprises, but, also, in terms of
public confidence it is important that people see us doing more of this work
rather than less.
Q353 Lady
Hermon: Minister, I could not agree more. It is very important to the people of Northern Ireland
to see what SOCA does. Are you concerned
about the low-level visibility of SOCA? In
the newspapers, when there has been a prosecution, they have almost become
invisible. Are you not concerned about
the lack of publicity of the actions of SOCA since taking over the work of the
Assets Recovery Agency?
Paul Goggins: Obviously their profile is an
issue for them, and I know it is something that they think about carefully, but
SOCA has never been an agency that has ridden in as the great champion to
outflank everybody else. They work with
other law enforcement agencies, so they work with the PSNI, and it is very much
a shared enterprise, therefore, rather than something that just they do on
their own. In Operation ECLA, this
tremendous operation between the Dutch, the Irish, and PSNI, 270 guns were
found, many arrests were made, and money was recovered. SOCA were involved in that. They do not trumpet it, they do not make a
big high profile thing of it, but they are involved. It seems to me that what is really important
about SOCA is that they have the international reach in terms of intelligence
and understanding and contact but they can do this very local asset recovery
work as well, and so we get the best of both worlds. They see themselves as an organisation in
partnership with others. I think that is
very welcome. In the end, I think it
will mean that we do even better on asset recovery overall. Even though you may not be able to
differentiate the SOCA bit of it, overall our asset recovery I think will
improve when all the agencies are stepping up to the plate.
Chairman: We shall await with interest.
Q354 Dr
McDonnell: Thank you, Minister, for all the information
you have shared with us so far. When we
talk here about a lot of stuff that may concern us as politicians, you as a minister,
and whatever, the one issue that concerns the public is the whole sex offender
scene. While there have been some
movement on information sharing, most of the people I talk to feel it has
not gone nearly far enough. Most people
would like to see an all Ireland
sex offenders' register, where it would almost be pro-active on this information
rather than passive on it. Can you offer
me any comfort on that? Because that is
an issue that people keep raising with me, how somebody in the North can duck
over the border and commit a crime or how somebody in the South can duck
over the border to the North and commit some of the outrageous crimes that they
do.
Paul Goggins: Obviously both jurisdictions
have their own sex offender notification systems and requirements. I do not think it is necessary to have a
combined, all Ireland
sex offenders' register. It does matter,
though, that the two systems are able to share information when that is
appropriate. That does happen. We have the information sharing
protocol. In individual cases we will
have public protection arrangements meetings at local level in Northern Ireland
and members of An Garda Siochana will come and attend those meetings, so there
is active engagement in terms of the management of serious sex offenders. That
happens all the time. The Probation
Service, North and South, also work well together. Operationally, in terms of information, I
think it is being shared.
Q355 Chairman:
Minister, if I may just interrupt you on that,
from the Probation Service and from our conversations, both formal and
informal, we have the clear impression that whilst, yes, there is co-operation
and, yes, that is a very good thing that there should be, there is significant
room for improvement on this issue in particular. Dr McDonnell is nodding assent and he was
present at all the conversations that we had in Dublin on this one. I think you would be pushing at an open door
if you talked to your opposite number in Dublin
on this about a greater degree of reciprocity and a greater degree of
similarity. Perhaps you could undertake
to do that.
Paul Goggins: I have already had
discussions with him about it. It
featured in my last meeting with him and, indeed, in the last meeting I had
with his predecessor. In terms of the
formal meetings we have as part of the criminal justice agreement, I would say
that this issue features higher than any other - and rightly so. The information sharing has improved. I think now, although I am not
technically expert on it, the risk assessment programme that we operate in Northern Ireland is now operating in Ireland and, indeed, increasingly in Scotland and England as well. That is a shared approach to the assessment
process, so that when somebody is assessed at a certain level that the same
level applies whether it be in Northern
Ireland or south of the border. In those professional ways, the information
is shared, assessments are shared. Can
we improve it? I am sure we can always
improve it. If this Committee makes
recommendations as to how you think we can improve it, we will look at that
very, very carefully indeed.
Q356 Christopher
Fraser: I apologise for my late arrival. The point was not that the Government has not
applied the right rules, but the NSPCC have made it quite clear there are more
stringent rules in Great Britain
and Northern Ireland
than there are in the Republic. It is
more that the Republic needs to come up to a standard that the NSPCC and the
rest of us can accept as being the most stringent rules. It is not that there is any criticism, I
suspect, of what the Government is doing in terms of its interpretation of it;
it is that what the others are doing is not coming up to a standard which
will make sure ultimately that children are protected.
Paul Goggins: We seek to work together to
the highest standards, but I think both of you have made an important point. Yes, it is important that we have good co-operation
between Ireland and Northern Ireland, but also we need that co-operation to
extend right across the whole of Ireland and the United Kingdom, because if we
are going to manage these difficult and dangerous people who will be very
devious in the way that they operate, then we have to absolutely work
together. There are issues about foreign
travel, for example, where there are slightly different rules that operate and
different rules slightly in terms of when people move from south to north, or
when people move from Northern
Ireland down south. Yes, we seek together to try to iron out
those differences and where they exist to manage those differences, but it is
very, very important that we strengthen public protection. Indeed, as a result of the legislation that
went through Parliament last year, we now have in place new public protection
arrangements in Northern Ireland that deal with sex offenders but also violent
offenders as well, and we have a whole series of local arrangements for
managing the most serious and the most dangerous people. In cross-border areas where those people have
to be managed there is a good deal of co-operation, not just with the Probation
Service but also with the police as well.
Q357 Chairman:
Thank
you. How well does the European Arrest
Warrant work? Has it had much of an
impact as far as you are concerned?
Paul Goggins: It does work. Since March 2004, 15 European Arrest Warrants
have been issued to the Republic of Ireland, and 23 European Arrest Warrants have been
issued to Northern Ireland
from the Republic
of Ireland. Clearly the system is used when necessary -
not vast numbers, but clearly used when necessary. It works in practice.
Q358 Chairman:
Minister, we are very grateful for your
evidence. I know there is going to be a
division in the House in about two minutes.
Could I just way that one of the things that has struck the Committee as
we have moved around and talked to people on both sides of the border has been
not only the genuine desire to co-operate and the actual co-operation but also the very real personal friendships that seem to be growing
up between officials on both sides with a real desire to make things work. I hope that we shall be able to make some
recommendations that will make them work even better. I would like to thank you for the work you
are doing. To return to the point with
which I began: I am going to give you a letter which puts into writing the
points that I made at the very beginning about this unfortunate choice of
business for 25 February. We very much
hope you will be able to help effect a change for us. Thank you and your officials very much.
Paul Goggins: Thank you.
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