Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
60-79)
DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORT AND
VEHICLE AND
OPERATOR SERVICES
AGENCY
Q60 Angela Browning: That is encouraging.
Mr Devereux: I thought that too.
Q61 Angela Browning: Otherwise, I
can see the run for the border being quite a significant part
of daily operations. Could I just come back to something that
the Chairman and Mr Touhig asked you about, and that is the question
of foreign vehicles, particularly to do with the EU regulation.
You are going to send us a note. If I understood you correctly,
when we get to the point of sharing information within the EU
it is a question of UK vehicles that have been stopped in other
countries being fed back to the homeland. Are you confident that
the system that has been set up is going to make that a harmonious
policy across all the EU countries?
Mr Devereux: Harmonious in what
sense?
Q62 Angela Browning: In the sense
that you may receive information about UK vehicles; if you feed
back to other countries, vehicles that have been stopped and found
defective for one reason or another in this country, what sort
of enforcement action then takes place?
Mr Devereux: I think as the Chief
Executive has already illustrated to you, practice in different
European States is not at the same consistent high standard as
it is in the UK. I am not going to guess the country, but let
us think of country X. If Alastair prohibits a vehicle and passes
it back to country X, the extent to which they will do something
profitable with that information other than simply recording it
will vary between countries. Those that have good systems—let
us take the Netherlands, which I would guess is a good system—they
will use this information in just the same hungry way that Alastair
would for the GB one, but that will not be consistent across the
European Union.
Q63 Angela Browning: If you have
this information and you are not satisfied that a vehicle re-entering
or a company that regularly comes to the UK is re-entering the
country after you have made a complaint, have you got the powers
to blacklist a vehicle coming into the country?
Mr Devereux: That is a slightly
different question.
Q64 Angela Browning: Yes, it is.
Mr Devereux: That is to do with
it coming back again.
Q65 Angela Browning: Yes. Once you
know there is a problem with it.
Mr Devereux: The Agency at the
moment is seeking to establish a database for non-British vehicles
to parallel the one they have already got for British vehicles.
The only entries, if you think about it, that will be in that
will be their own information because they are not getting any
from any other countries; and that would mean at least that they
are able to identify who potentially had a problem previously.
Blacklisting is a slightly different question because it could
well be that they found a bald tyre but the operator has now fixed
the tyre. Coming back to the questions about the HMRC database,
if we knew that a vehicle we had previously prohibited was on
this ferry coming into this port on that day, then you can be
assured that Alastair's people will be there to pick it up. You
can target but I do not think you can blacklist.
Q66 Mr Mitchell: Given that paragraph
1.19 tells us that the problems with British lorries are more
associated with driver performance but for foreign vehicles it
is mechanical conditions, why do you not clamp down on foreign
vehicles?
Mr Devereux: Clamp down in what
sense? I am sorry.
Q67 Mr Mitchell: Given the fact that
there are more mechanical deficiencies according to paragraph
1.19(2) with foreign vehicles, why do you not clamp down on foreign
vehicles?
Mr Devereux: As I have already
said to the Chairman, virtually all the big new initiatives that
the Agency has taken, backed with the money that the Department
has given it, have been to establish checkpoints on high traffic
routes that are particularly used by international traffic. We
are focusing a lot of attention on international traffic, but
the same paragraph says that there are material problems with
British-registered vehicles and so we cannot just turn a blind
eye to that especially since there are now ten times as many of
them.
Q68 Mr Mitchell: I am not suggesting
you do that, but why do you not clamp down on foreign vehicles?
Mr Devereux: I am trying to understand
what you mean by "clamp down". Do you mean not let them
in?
Q69 Mr Mitchell: Do you not have
the power?
Mr Devereux: We are testing: about
50%[6]
of all the roadside checks are against foreign vehicles, despite
the fact they—
Q70 Mr Mitchell: If I had a foreign
vehicle, is there a greater chance of being stopped and checked
than if I am a British operator?
Mr Devereux: Yes.
Q71 Mr Mitchell: Good. Thank you.
Now, what happens when you fine them or require changes?
Mr Devereux: Sorry, when I?
Q72 Mr Mitchell: A foreign vehicle
is found to be deficient at one of your checkpoints. What happens
then? Is it immobilised?
Mr Devereux: The good news is
I can now immobilise it in the event that they cannot be compliant
with whatever the inspector says should happen. The good news
is I can now take money off them in the form of a graduated fixed
penalty deposit system, which previously I did not do. So, on
two counts, the immediate financial penalty and the ability to
immobilise the vehicle, I am in a better place now than I was.
—I cannot remember when it was introduced.
Mr Peoples: May last year.
Mr Devereux: —in May last
year.
Q73 Mr Mitchell: What powers do you
have over it until the fine is paid?
Mr Devereux: Strictly speaking,
we seek a deposit, which coincidentally happens to be pretty much
the same number as the fine. By the time they have paid the deposit,
they have more or less settled their fine, and prior to doing
that, if necessary they can immobilise the vehicle. Let me go
off at a slight tangent here: one of the things that has become
apparent in the current year is the very fact that this arrangement
is beginning to dawn on some operators; that it is better to be
compliant than to risk this. It is quite clear now that there
are fewer vehicles being stopped and found non-compliant, particularly
as they go across towards Ireland, than was previously the case.
We may paradoxically find ourselves in a position where fewer
vehicles appear to be prohibited because actually people are beginning
to get the message that this is not the way that we want them
to act, which is a good-news story.
Q74 Mr Mitchell: It says in 1.19(2):
"For foreign vehicles mechanical condition and some driver-related
factors". What are "some driver-related factors"
on foreign vehicles? Are they pissed out of their brains or what?
Mr Devereux: Fatigue—drivers
driving too long—the same driving condition as applies to
British drivers. They are over their hours, they have got two
more hours to get to the port—"Let's put the foot down
and get there"—that is the sort of driver-related problem.
Q75 Mr Mitchell: Something which
the Agency might be able to influence through the inspectorate—is
that driver hours that you are influencing through the inspectorate?
Mr Devereux: Yes.
Q76 Mr Mitchell: You are just telling
them it is naughty!
Mr Devereux: What is happening
in putting the word around with Irish operators is that many of
them have been caught; there is clearly behavioural change going
on. The Agency is doing something to the vehicle they find and
making a point of telling similar vehicles, "This is the
regime that is now in place", and it would appear to be having
a genuine deterrent effect.
Q77 Mr Mitchell: Mr Touhig elicited
the fact that some European States do not exchange information
with any enthusiasm. Can you tell us which ones do not exchange?[7]
Mr Devereux: I have offered to
write a note because I do not have that to hand, I am afraid.
Q78 Mr Mitchell: Can you tell us
in a written answer?
Mr Devereux: I do not know, I
am sorry. I have not looked—
Q79 Mr Mitchell: How can the generalisation
be made that some do not provide information if you do not know
which?
Mr Devereux: Sorry, it is known
which do and which do not, but I do not know here. The NAO are
correct and we signed this Report off, and I am assuming that—
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