Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
WEDNESDAY 24 FEBRUARY 2010
MS LINDA
ROSBOROUGH
Q60 Chairman: No, but going back
to the Secretary of State, I know you do not represent the Secretary
of State but would there be the same meetings with the Secretary
of State on the same level?
Ms Rosborough: It is before my
time, I am afraid, so I do not know.
Q61 Chairman: No, but currently are
you aware of the Secretary of State for Scotland having meetings
with the Commissioners?
Ms Rosborough: We would not be
aware.
Q62 Chairman: You would not be told
whether that was happening?
Ms Rosborough: No.
Q63 Chairman: What is the formal
concordat between the Scottish Government and the Commissioners?
Is there a separate memorandum?
Ms Rosborough: No, there is no
separate memorandum.
Q64 Chairman: So nobody has set out
how you should work together?
Ms Rosborough: No. We do have
a Scottish Liaison Group which was set up following the review
that was mentioned earlier and the Scottish Government has observer
status on that.
Q65 Chairman: Right, but we have
been hearing from the local authorities that work is going on
on the memorandum. Would you not be a party to that?
Ms Rosborough: The particular
memorandum which was mentioned by the local authorities was something
they have initiated in their liaison with The Crown Estate Commissioners.
I have not been a party to that.
Q66 Chairman: Why would the Scottish
Government not be involved in that, even as an observer?
Ms Rosborough: The dialogue, as
far as I know, has not yet reached us, but it is something that
is happening. We do have a number of working groups upon which
we are represented and the local authorities are represented.
For instance, we have a working group on the Pentland Firth which
is looking particularly at the marine planning issues arising
out of renewables development in the Pentland Firth. The memorandum
that was mentioned was a specific initiative of the authorities
that were giving evidence earlier.
Q67 Chairman: Do you think it would
be helpful for the Scottish Government to have a more formal Memorandum
of Understanding with The Crown Estate Commissioners?
Ms Rosborough: Firstly, the Scottish
Government aspires to independence and aspires to the administration
of the Crown Estate to happen within Scotland under a different
constitutional arrangement would be our policy. Beyond that, we
are looking for additional leverage over the administration of
the Crown Estate in Scotland, so yes is the roundabout answer
to your question.
Q68 John Thurso: In your written
evidence you make clear the priority which renewable energy is
for the Scottish Government, and I think that is pretty well taken
as read, and you have just said that the Scottish Government would
prefer to have more charge of what The Crown Estate does within
Scotland. Are The Crown Estate Commissioners doing everything
they should to realise the opportunity and what would you ideally
like to see changed if you had the opportunity to change it?
Ms Rosborough: The Crown Estate
Commissioners are very active on the renewables agenda and have
put a lot of resource into working energetically on the agenda
and we have a good working relationship at a number of levels
because of that. I think they are constrained by the fact that
the remit under which they operate constrains their objectives
and that means that they take a rather narrower view on what can
be achieved than we might wish. So, for example, particularly
in the wave and tidal area, there are lots of unknowns, particularly
about the environmental implications of putting the devices into
the water and there will be a lot of expensive research and monitoring
required to underpin the consenting of devices in the water. I
think The Crown Estate may be less ready to put money into that
sort of activity than they would in another area where the financial
benefits are clearer in the short or medium term because of the
need that they have to secure return on their investment.
Q69 John Thurso: It seems to me that
there are two strands. There is the pure rental and maximising
the economic value, which is obviously what The Crown Estate is
directed to do. There is also the more overall socioeconomic value,
which is all the bits that should accrue to communities, whether
it is Caithness, Orkney, wherever, companies starting, universities,
doing training, whatever it is. At the moment those two strands
are thought to be more or less overlapping, but it is quite possible
that as this develops The Crown Estates strand for pure revenue
will go one way and the socioeconomic will tend to pull another
way. It seems to me strange—and the previous witnesses alluded
to this—that governments either here or in Edinburgh are
not more involved in the direction and that The Crown Estate has
been left to make all the decisions. Would not the Scottish Government
like to have the ability to be more directive towards The Crown
Estate to ensure the greater societal economic good rather than
simply a revenue stream for The Crown Estate?
Ms Rosborough: Yes, indeed, very
much so.
Q70 John Thurso: Just one last question.
With the passage of the Marine Scotland Act there is a new system
coming into effect. How confident are you that there will be sufficient
integration between the roles and responsibilities of Marine Scotland
and The Crown Estate Commissioners?
Ms Rosborough: The legislation
both in terms of the Scottish legislation and the UK legislation
brings in a new statutory system of marine planning and The Crown
Estate will be bound by marine plans, as other government agencies
and departments are bound by marine plans. So the new legislation
will provide an integrating force and it is a momentum in the
right direction, but that primarily bites on consenting and authorising
decisions and not necessarily the wider role of making things
happen, supporting the expansion of the industry, nor the downstream
benefits that can flow from an expanding industry. It does not
take us into that territory. So it will help, but it is not the
full picture.
Q71 Sir Peter Viggers: The memorandum
given to us by the Scottish Government says for some years there
has been concern in Scotland, largely from marine users, about
whether the management of the Crown Estate in Scotland was sufficiently
attuned to Scottish interests and when the Calman Commission looked
at this issue in 2009 it came to the conclusion that The Crown
Estate in Scotland benefits from being part of a much wider and
more profitable estate which enables The Crown Estate to invest
in assets in Scotland. From your position as Head of Marine Planning
Policy do you see The Crown Estate investing in marine development?
Do you see them involving themselves in Scottish development,
or do you think that the comment by the Scottish Government that
there is not much interest is a fair one? Can you guide us in
this?
Ms Rosborough: I think The Crown
Estate has improved in terms of the visibility of the work they
are doing in terms of additional investment and they have actually
produced some publications as part of their annual report which
highlight the work they are doing in Scotland which they did not
used to do. I think there is still a gap in terms of perception
in Scotland on the extent to which it is perceived as accountable,
engaged and involved in Scottish affairs and I think that will
continue under the present arrangement.
Q72 Sir Peter Viggers: You say there
is a gap in perception. Do you think there is a gap in reality?
Do you think that in fact The Crown Estate is taking from Scotland
and not reinvesting not in perception but in reality?
Ms Rosborough: In reality the
driver for The Crown Estate is raising the revenue that is passed
back to the Treasury, so in reality the money does flow out of
Scotland.
Q73 Sir Peter Viggers: Into the consolidated
fund which benefit the whole of the United Kingdom?
Ms Rosborough: Yes.
Sir Peter Viggers: Thank you.
Q74 Chairman: Can I just be clear
about the amount of revenue you think you should get your hands
on or you want to get your hands on. Have you quantified that?
Ms Rosborough: No. I have not
got figures to hand today on the revenue, no.
Q75 Chairman: But you have an aspiration
that this money ought to be retained in Scotland?
Ms Rosborough: The Scottish Government
has an aspiration for independence and the Crown Estate is one
of many elements of the Scottish Government's aspiration for independence.
Q76 Chairman: Right, but you have
not totted up how much that might bring you?
Ms Rosborough: No.
Q77 Jim Cousins: This question in
a sense follows naturally on from the Chairman's question. The
Crown Estate in their evidence to us have shown us a map of the
marine boundaries out to the continental shelf including a boundary
between England and Scotland. It is somewhat complicated, of course,
by the Isle of Man which The Crown Estate Commissioners have classified
to Europe but, be that as it may, I wonder if you have seen this
map and if you could have the opportunity of perhaps writing to
the Committee and letting us know whether you accept the boundaries
that are presented here?
Ms Rosborough: I would be happy
to do so, yes. I have not seen the map, but I would be happy to
have the opportunity.
Q78 Chairman: Could I turn, if I
may, to the appointment of The Crown Estate Commissioners and
to a Scottish Commissioner, because I think it is one of the things
Calman looked at. Why is that so important?
Ms Rosborough: Why is it important
that there is a Scottish Commissioner? I think it is important
that, if we continue with the current arrangement, there is a
Commissioner who has knowledge of Scottish interests and that
is because the marine estate in particular is such an important
part of The Crown Estate's overall estate and it is particularly
important for Scotland. The Crown Estate is quite an Anglo-centric
body as it stands at the moment, and it is important, given more
than half of the seas around the UK are Scottish seas, that there
is a strong Scottish presence within it.
Q79 Chairman: But it is still quite
a small proportion of the Estate's overall activity and revenue,
is it not?
Ms Rosborough: The revenue comes
largely from the more commercial aspects of its holdings, which
are predominantly in England in the more urban areas. In terms
of the actual area you are talking about very large amounts of
territory, if you can count the seabed as territory, being part
of the Scottish estate.
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