House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 Mar 2011 (pt 0004)

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The Committee divided:

Ayes 7, Noes 393.

Division No. 224]

[9.26 pm

AYES

Edwards, Jonathan

Hosie, Stewart

Lucas, Caroline

MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan

Robertson, Angus

Weir, Mr Mike

Williams, Hywel

Tellers for the Ayes:

Pete Wishart and

Dr Eilidh Whiteford

NOES

Abrahams, Debbie

Adams, Nigel

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Anderson, Mr David

Andrew, Stuart

Arbuthnot, rh Mr James

Bacon, Mr Richard

Bagshawe, Ms Louise

Bailey, Mr Adrian

Bain, Mr William

Baker, Norman

Baker, Steve

Baldry, Tony

Baldwin, Harriett

Balls, rh Ed

Banks, Gordon

Barclay, Stephen

Barker, Gregory

Baron, Mr John

Barwell, Gavin

Bebb, Guto

Begg, Dame Anne

Beith, rh Sir Alan

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Benn, rh Hilary

Benyon, Richard

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Betts, Mr Clive

Bingham, Andrew

Binley, Mr Brian

Birtwistle, Gordon

Blackman, Bob

Blackman-Woods, Roberta

Blackwood, Nicola

Blomfield, Paul

Blunt, Mr Crispin

Boles, Nick

Bone, Mr Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brake, Tom

Bray, Angie

Brazier, Mr Julian

Brennan, Kevin

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Mr Steve

Brooke, Annette

Bruce, Fiona

Bryant, Chris

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burns, Conor

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burstow, Paul

Burt, Alistair

Burt, Lorely

Byles, Dan

Campbell, Mr Alan

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair

Carmichael, Neil

Carswell, Mr Douglas

Cash, Mr William

Chishti, Rehman

Clark, rh Greg

Coaker, Vernon

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Cooper, Rosie

Cox, Mr Geoffrey

Crabb, Stephen

Creagh, Mary

Creasy, Stella

Crockart, Mike

Crouch, Tracey

Cryer, John

Cunningham, Alex

Cunningham, Tony

Dakin, Nic

Danczuk, Simon

Davey, Mr Edward

David, Mr Wayne

Davidson, Mr Ian

Davies, David T. C.

(Monmouth)

Davies, Geraint

Davies, Glyn

Davies, Philip

de Bois, Nick

Dinenage, Caroline

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Dobson, rh Frank

Docherty, Thomas

Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.

Donohoe, Mr Brian H.

Doran, Mr Frank

Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen

Dorries, Nadine

Doyle, Gemma

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Duncan, rh Mr Alan

Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Jonathan

Evennett, Mr David

Fabricant, Michael

Fallon, Michael

Farron, Tim

Featherstone, Lynne

Field, Mr Mark

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Fox, rh Dr Liam

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Freeman, George

Fullbrook, Lorraine

Fuller, Richard

Gale, Mr Roger

Garnier, Mr Edward

Garnier, Mark

Gauke, Mr David

George, Andrew

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gilmore, Sheila

Glen, John

Glindon, Mrs Mary

Goggins, rh Paul

Goldsmith, Zac

Goodwill, Mr Robert

Graham, Richard

Grant, Mrs Helen

Grayling, rh Chris

Greatrex, Tom

Green, Damian

Green, Kate

Greening, Justine

Greenwood, Lilian

Griffith, Nia

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Halfon, Robert

Hames, Duncan

Hamilton, Mr David

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, Matthew

Hanson, rh Mr David

Harper, Mr Mark

Harris, Rebecca

Harris, Mr Tom

Hart, Simon

Harvey, Nick

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, Mr John

Heald, Mr Oliver

Healey, rh John

Heath, Mr David

Hemming, John

Henderson, Gordon

Hendrick, Mark

Hepburn, Mr Stephen

Herbert, rh Nick

Heyes, David

Hilling, Julie

Hinds, Damian

Hodge, rh Margaret

Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Holloway, Mr Adam

Hopkins, Kelvin

Hopkins, Kris

Horwood, Martin

Howarth, Mr Gerald

Howell, John

Hughes, rh Simon

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Hunt, Tristram

Hunter, Mark

Huppert, Dr Julian

Jackson, Mr Stewart

James, Margot

James, Mrs Siân C.

Jarvis, Dan

Javid, Sajid

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Johnson, Diana

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, Mr David

Jones, Mr Kevan

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kelly, Chris

Kirby, Simon

Knight, rh Mr Greg

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Lamb, Norman

Lancaster, Mark

Lansley, rh Mr Andrew

Lavery, Ian

Lazarowicz, Mark

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Jessica

Leech, Mr John

Lefroy, Jeremy

Leigh, Mr Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Letwin, rh Mr Oliver

Lewis, Brandon

Lewis, Mr Ivan

Lewis, Dr Julian

Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian

Lilley, rh Mr Peter

Lopresti, Jack

Loughton, Tim

Lucas, Ian

Luff, Peter

Lumley, Karen

Macleod, Mary

Mactaggart, Fiona

May, rh Mrs Theresa

Maynard, Paul

McCabe, Steve

McCarthy, Kerry

McCartney, Jason

McCartney, Karl

McClymont, Gregg

McCrea, Dr William

McFadden, rh Mr Pat

McGovern, Jim

McGuire, rh Mrs Anne

McIntosh, Miss Anne

McKechin, Ann

McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick

McPartland, Stephen

McVey, Esther

Meale, Mr Alan

Menzies, Mark

Metcalfe, Stephen

Michael, rh Alun

Miller, Andrew

Miller, Maria

Mills, Nigel

Moore, rh Michael

Mordaunt, Penny

Morgan, Nicky

Morrice, Graeme

(Livingston)

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Morris, James

Mosley, Stephen

Mowat, David

Mulholland, Greg

Mundell, rh David

Munt, Tessa

Murphy, rh Mr Jim

Murphy, rh Paul

Murray, Ian

Murray, Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Neill, Robert

Newmark, Mr Brooks

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

O'Donnell, Fiona

Offord, Mr Matthew

Ollerenshaw, Eric

Onwurah, Chi

Opperman, Guy

Owen, Albert

Paice, rh Mr James

Patel, Priti

Pawsey, Mark

Pearce, Teresa

Penning, Mike

Penrose, John

Percy, Andrew

Perkins, Toby

Phillips, Stephen

Pickles, rh Mr Eric

Poulter, Dr Daniel

Pound, Stephen

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pritchard, Mark

Pugh, John

Raab, Mr Dominic

Randall, rh Mr John

Reckless, Mark

Redwood, rh Mr John

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Reid, Mr Alan

Reynolds, Jonathan

Robathan, rh Mr Andrew

Robertson, Hugh

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Rogerson, Dan

Rosindell, Andrew

Rotheram, Steve

Roy, Mr Frank

Roy, Lindsay

Ruane, Chris

Rudd, Amber

Ruffley, Mr David

Russell, Bob

Rutley, David

Scott, Mr Lee

Selous, Andrew

Shapps, rh Grant

Sharma, Alok

Sheridan, Jim

Shuker, Gavin

Simmonds, Mark

Simpson, Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Smith, Angela

Smith, Miss Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Soames, Nicholas

Soubry, Anna

Spellar, rh Mr John

Spencer, Mr Mark

Stanley, rh Sir John

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Bob

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Streeter, Mr Gary

Stride, Mel

Stringer, Graham

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Stuart, Mr Graham

Stunell, Andrew

Sturdy, Julian

Swales, Ian

Swayne, Mr Desmond

Swinson, Jo

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Syms, Mr Robert

Tami, Mark

Thomas, Mr Gareth

Timms, rh Stephen

Timpson, Mr Edward

Tomlinson, Justin

Tredinnick, David

Turner, Mr Andrew

Twigg, Stephen

Umunna, Mr Chuka

Uppal, Paul

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vaz, rh Keith

Vickers, Martin

Wallace, Mr Ben

Walter, Mr Robert

Ward, Mr David

Watkinson, Angela

Watts, Mr Dave

Weatherley, Mike

Webb, Steve

Wharton, James

Wheeler, Heather

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Whittaker, Craig

Willetts, rh Mr David

Williams, Mr Mark

Williams, Roger

Williamson, Chris

Williamson, Gavin

Willott, Jenny

Wilson, Phil

Wilson, Mr Rob

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Wollaston, Dr Sarah

Woodcock, John

Wright, David

Wright, Mr Iain

Wright, Jeremy

Wright, Simon

Young, rh Sir George

Zahawi, Nadhim

Tellers for the Noes:

Bill Wiggin and

James Duddridge

Question accordingly negatived.

14 Mar 2011 : Column 125

14 Mar 2011 : Column 126

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Mr Davidson: On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. According to the votes, eight nationalists have been voting on all these things, and now they are down to seven. Has somebody been kidnapped? [ Laughter. ]

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Now, then.

Clause 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 33

Maximum penalties which may be specified in subordinate legislation

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): I beg to move amendment 31, page 25, line 31, leave out ‘the amount specified as’.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment 32.

David Mundell: The Government have identified the need for these minor technical amendments to clause 33, which updates the maximum penalties that can be applied to criminal offences created in subordinate legislation made under the Scotland Act 1998. The amendments are sensible additions that will ensure consistency across the different legal systems within the UK. The first amendment is a minor technical amendment to ensure consistency in the terminology used to refer to fine limits for different jurisdictions, which are provided for in the amendments to section 113 of the Scotland Act made by clause 33.

The second amendment ensures that the correct terminology is used in relation to fine limits in section 113 for either-way offences created in relation to the law of England and Wales and Northern Ireland, with the statutory maximum rather than level 5 on the standard scale on summary conviction. Level 5 has meaning only in relation to summary-only offences by virtue of the

14 Mar 2011 : Column 128

definition in the Interpretation Act 1978. Clause 33, as introduced, makes this terminology change in relation to fine limits for Scots law offences, and the amendment makes the same change for offences that form part of the law of England and Wales and Northern Ireland.

The amendments will ensure consistency in the terminology used to describe the fine limits for offences created in the Scotland Act orders for each of the legal jurisdictions in the UK.

Amendment 31 agreed to .

Amendment made: 32, page 26, line 2, leave out from second ‘exceeding’ to end of line 3 and insert—

(i) in the case of a summary offence, level 5 on the standard scale,

(ii) in the case of an offence triable either way, the statutory maximum,’.—

(David Mundell.)

Clause 33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 34 to 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 38

Commencement

Amendments made: 65, page 28, line 5, leave out ‘made by statutory instrument’.

Amendment 66, page 28, line 9, leave out ‘made by statutory instrument’.—(David Mundell.)

Clause 38, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 39 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 18

Orders

‘Any power to make an order conferred by this Act is exercisable by statutory instrument.’.—(David Mundell.)

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 1

Abolition of regional members of Scottish Parliament

‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 1—

(a) in subsection (2) “Two members” is substituted for “One member”; and at the end there is inserted “save for those identified in paragraph 1(a) to (c) of Schedule 1, each of which shall return one member,”;

(b) subsection (3) is omitted.

(3) In section 5, subsections (1) and (3) to (9) are omitted.

(4) Sections 6, 7, 8 and 10 are omitted.

(5) In section 11, subsection (2) is substituted by—

“(2) A person is not entitled to vote as an elector in more than one constituency at a general election, and may cast no more than two votes at a poll for the return of constituency members.”.

(6) In section 12—

(a) in subsection (2), paragraphs (e) and (f) are omitted;

(b) subsection (3) is omitted;

14 Mar 2011 : Column 129

“(4A) The provision to be made under subsection (1) must include provision for—

(a) each elector to cast one or two votes of equal value, with no more than one vote to be given to any one candidate, in constituencies returning two members;

(b) the two candidates with the most valid votes to be elected in such constituencies.”.

(7) In Schedule 1—

(a) for paragraph 1 there is substituted—

“(1) The constituencies are—

(a) the Orkney Islands,

(b) the Shetland Islands

(d) the parliamentary constituencies in Scotland at the time of an ordinary or extraordinary general election for the Scottish Parliament, except the constituencies of Orkney and Shetland and Na h-Eileanan An Iar”;

(b) paragraphs 3 to 14 are omitted.’.—(Mr Donohoe.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

9.45 pm

Mr Donohoe: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 2 —Regional members of the Scottish Parliament—

‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 81, after subsection (2), there is inserted—

“(2A) No provision shall be made under subsection (2) for any allowances for representative work in any constituency or region by a regional member in a registered political party or a group of such regional members; and no allowances may be made for offices or staff or related expenses incurred by such members other than in connection with or at the Parliament’s place of meeting or in connection with a committee meeting.

(2B) Any allowances paid to regional members in a registered political party shall be founded on the assumption that they are representatives of that party from the relevant region and not from any single constituency.”.

(3) In Schedule 3, after paragraph 2 , there is inserted—

2A The standing orders shall include provision for withdrawing from a regional member in a registered political party any or all of his rights and privileges as a member, including any allowances, if he is found to have purported to act, or has held himself out, as a constituency member for any single constituency or for a group of constituencies other than the region from which he was elected.”’.

Mr Donohoe: New clauses 1 and 2 relate to regional Members of the Scottish Parliament, who were introduced in an irksome move and have been with us for a long time—since the outset of the Scottish Parliament.

Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend describes the provisions for a system of proportional representation as irksome. How many representations have been received by Government or anybody else that call for a change to the voting system for the Scottish Parliament, apart from those of my hon. Friend and a few of our colleagues?

Mr Donohoe: Since I have been in a position to see this matter at first hand, I have received many representations over the years from constituents who have concerns about the system, as I am sure has my

14 Mar 2011 : Column 130

hon. Friend. As a result of my tabling the new clauses, a number of individuals have written to me to tell me that I was spot on in making this argument. Therefore, there have been a number of representations. Not many people have come to me and argued for the continuation of the crazy system that is in being. I will expand on that point later in my speech.

Never in the history of politics has a political party given so much power to its opponents as in the Scotland Act 1998. Since then, all sorts of people have come on to the scene, cherry-picked within the constituencies and caused mayhem. That is why I have tabled the new clauses. Obviously, we must look at this whole question. We must go back to the first election to the Scottish Parliament in 1999. In my constituency, there was the crazy situation in which not only was the person who came second under first past the post elected to the Scottish Parliament through the pool for constituency Members, but the people who came third and the fourth. As my constituents tell me, something is fundamentally wrong when such a system is allowed to continue. That is the crux of my argument this evening.

Jim McGovern: I go round the doors every weekend, as I am sure does my hon. Friend and most Members here. Does he agree that most people on the doorstep are confused about how they vote for the list person? In politics, the people who know about it regard it as the assisted places system.

Mr Donohoe: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will develop that argument in my speech.

Pete Wishart: I am interested to know the view of the Labour party on this issue. The names of the hon. Gentleman and five of his hon. Friends are listed as supporters of the amendment. What is the view of those on the Labour Front Bench on Westminster controlling what happens with Members of the Scottish Parliament? What is the view of Labour Members of the Scottish Parliament on that?

Mr Donohoe: I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows that there are varying views on the subject, as there are on many subjects. As far as my constituents are concerned, however, there is no doubt: to a person, they support the argument that I am making tonight that there should be a fundamental change to how we elect our MSPs. There was immense resistance to the fact that the person who came fourth under first past the post was eventually elected to the Scottish Parliament. That seems to me to be wrong.

David Mundell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr Donohoe: Oh, go on then.

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman has been very consistent on this issue, and I respect his views even though I do not necessarily agree with him. However, I am confused about the Labour party position. For many years, those of us who were list MSPs heard the arguments that he is making about how the list was an assisted places scheme for people who failed to be directly elected under first past the post. Now I find that Labour party first-past-the-post candidates are on the

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list, and some of them are even topping lists when there is a fear that they will lose in the first-past-the-post constituency. How does he feel about that?

Mr Donohoe: I had the greatest respect for Phil Gallie, the former MP for Ayr, who was also a list MSP. He hated every minute of his time in the Scottish Parliament, because he knew that as a list Member, he had absolutely no powers. I will develop that argument later in my speech, but even Tory MSPs were opposed to the concept of the list system.

Mrs Laing: I understand that the hon. Gentleman’s argument is that the simple first-past-the-post system used in elections to Westminster produces a fairer result than other systems. Is he concerned that the introduction of the alternative vote for Westminster would undermine elections to this place, and therefore the legitimacy of this House of Commons?

Mr Donohoe: I am not sure that I want to wander down that road, because the hon. Lady is well aware that I am the joint chairman of the all-party group for the promotion of first past the post, and also the secretary of the relevant group in the Labour ranks. Indeed, last week I asked the Prime Minister a question about the matter and he agreed with me, which is a first. Members all know where I stand and where the campaign on first past the post is going.

Let us examine the situation as it stands. If I go to a health board meeting in Ayrshire, how many MSPs can turn up? Some 24 can turn up and be part of the debate. That is not a problem in itself, but some of those list Members represent areas outside Ayrshire. There is therefore immense conflict when decisions are taken about where health services for them and their constituents should be. I have seen that at first hand on at least a dozen occasions. As a consequence, I no longer go to those meetings. Instead, I sensibly insist on the health board meeting the MPs and constituency MSPs alone, instead of the nonsense of the cherry-picking that was and is going on among list Members north of the border.

Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend clearly has strong views. I must say that in the area that I represent, where there are Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Green, Labour and independent list MSPs, I do not have the problems that he seems to encounter. Is not the real difficulty with his proposal that it would lead to an end to the proportional system for the Scottish Parliament? Is that not what it is really about? Would it not be undemocratic and wrong if Labour, the SNP or any other party got a majority of seats with 30% of the vote?

Mr Donohoe: I am sure my hon. Friend has examined my two new clauses, which are self-supporting. It is correct that in the first instance I want to bring back coterminous boundaries for all MSPs, so that there is a semblance of an organisation that can be supported by all parties in this place and elsewhere. However, the second point that I want drive home is as important as the first. I do not believe that list Members should be allowed, under any circumstances, to pick up the funds that are currently available to them to represent—or not represent—what they perceive to be their constituents.

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That brings me neatly to list MSPs themselves. On a substantial number of occasions, the list Member has cherry-picked, to the detriment of the possibility of inward investment by companies of some size into my constituency—I take exception to that more than anything. On the basis of what they perceived to be environmental issues, they have come in and destroyed any possibility of a company coming into my constituency. That is wrong, and there must be accountability, but the list Member is not accountable to constituents as I am to mine. That must be fundamentally wrong. No hon. Member can tell me whether the list Members have any accountability within the structures of their political parties. That is the problem. There is no accountability whatever for list Members—[ Interruption. ] Does the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) want to intervene?

Mr MacNeil indicated dissent .

Mr Donohoe: I did not think he would. That demonstrates exactly what I am saying. There is no accountability, and no structure to allow it, for list Members. That is a major problem, and why I have tabled new clauses 1 and 2.

Jim McGovern: Does my hon. Friend agree that most people would recognise their MP, some would recognise their MSP, and some may even recognise their MEP, but very few would know who their list MSP is?

Mr Donohoe: The only one I could think anybody would recognise would be the ex-Member for Cumnock, Carrick and Doon Valley, George Foulkes. Whether that is because of his politics or because he was the chairman of Hearts I do not know.

Mr MacNeil: I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman mentions list MSPs. In the highlands, we know that Rob Gibson and David Thompson are the SNP list MSPs, but I have no idea whatever who the Labour MSPs are.

Mr Donohoe: The hon. Gentleman makes my point. Nobody actually knows their list Members. I could not name the ones in my constituency because there are 24 of them.

Pete Wishart: Does the hon. Gentleman know how many people in Scotland recognise Iain Gray? What would he make of these proceedings?

Mr Donohoe: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s smile will be on the other side of his face come the end of May. There is absolutely no doubt that Iain Gray will become as well known as anyone in Scotland as a result of becoming First Minister after 3 May this year. That was a great intervention—I would be happy to take similar ones all night.

Mr MacNeil: I do not know who the highlands Labour list MSPs are, so could the hon. Gentleman inform us?

Mr Donohoe: I think one of them is David Stewart.

14 Mar 2011 : Column 133

Mr MacNeil: Think?

Mr Donohoe: Am I right?

Mr MacNeil indicated assent.

Mr Donohoe: The hon. Gentleman indicates that I got that one right.

The fact is that we must look seriously at the current situation. This argument is what might be described as a slow burner, but I would like to develop it by moving on to the first-past-the-post system. I realise that I am running out of time, but I have a lot of support on both sides of the Committee, even if some hon. Members are hiding behind their mantle.

The fact is that there is only one solution to the problem that we face north of the border—to bring about first past the post for every MSP. As a result, I suggest, for all sorts of reasons, that the best solution is that instead of the list Members system, by which there are 129 MSPs, we simply have two MSPs per Westminster constituency, with the exception of the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland. I would make that concession. I am sure that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar would be very happy with that indeed. As a result, we would have 119 Members.

Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us—

10 pm

Proceedings interrupted (Standing Order No. 9(3)).

The occupant of the Chair left the Chair.

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair .

Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow.

Business without Debate

Regulatory Reform

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 18(1) (a) ),

That the draft Legislative Reform (Civil Partnership) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved. —(Miss Chloe Smith.)

Question agreed to.