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New schedule 1 added to the Bill.
Amendments made: 31, page 104, line 13 leave out ‘qualified’.
Amendment 32, page 104, line 18, leave out from beginning to ‘person’ in line 19 and insert
‘A person may not be appointed under sub-paragraph (1) to act as chief finance officer unless the’.—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendments made: 33, page 106, line 2, leave out ‘police and crime commissioner’ and insert ‘chief constable’.
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Amendment 34, page 106, line 18, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.
Amendment 35, page 106, line 21, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.
Amendment 36, page 106, line 23, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.
Amendment 37, page 106, line 24, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendments made: 38, page 108, line 8, leave out ‘qualified’.
Amendment 39, page 108, line 13, leave out sub-paragraph (2).—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendments made: 40, page 110, line 39, leave out ‘a police and crime commissioner’ and insert
‘the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis’.
Amendment 135A, page 111, line 5, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.
Amendment 136, page 111, line 9, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.
Amendment 137, page 111, line 11, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.
Amendment 138, page 111, line 14, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’.—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendment made: 41, page 114, line 29, leave out Schedule 6.—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendment made: 42, page 121, line 39, leave out ‘these purposes’ and insert
‘the purposes of sub-paragraph (6)’.—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendments made: 43, page 133, line 24, after ‘areas’, insert ‘in England’.
Amendment 44, page 135, line 7, leave out subsection (7).
Amendment 45, page 135, line 28, after ‘commissioner’, insert
‘for a police area in England’.
Amendment 46, page 135, line 30, leave out ‘the police area of the commissioner’ and insert ‘that police area’.
Amendment 47, page 136, line 2, at end insert ‘, and
(c) after “section 6 above” insert “, apart from devolved Welsh functions (as defined by section 5(7)),”.’.
Amendment 48, page 136, leave out lines 6 to 17 and insert—
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‘(a) the body is not satisfied that the responsible authorities for the area are carrying out their functions under section 6 in an effective and efficient manner, and
(b) the body considers it reasonable and proportionate in all the circumstances to require a report.’.
Amendment 49, page 136, leave out lines 30 to 32.—(Nick Herbert.)
Amendments made: 50, page 163, line 18, at end insert—
( ) For subsection (2) substitute—
(2) In issuing a policing plan, the Common Council must have regard to the strategic policing requirement issued under section 37A.”.’.
Amendment 51, page 167, line 42, at end insert—
‘In section 61 (the Police Negotiating Board for the United Kingdom), in subsection (1)(a), for “authorities” substitute “persons and bodies”.’.
Amendment 52, page 211, line 5, leave out paragraph 355.—(Nick Herbert.)
6.15 pm
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I beg to move amendment 2, page 100, line 10, leave out clause 152.
Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 154, page 100, line 17, at end insert—
‘(a) A specialist unit shall be established within the Crown Prosecution Service, reporting to the Director of Public Prosecutions, so as to ensure minimal delay in decisions relating to arrest warrants issued under this section.
(b) A specialist unit shall be established within the Metropolitan Police so as to ensure minimal delay in the issuing of arrest warrants under this section.’.
Ann Clwyd: The amendment would remove clause 152. At the outset, I should like to say that whatever one’s views on the changes proposed by the clause, it should not be part of the Bill. It is a justice measure in a Home Office Bill, which is already packed. It would be better if the Government had not crow-barred it into the Bill. However, I am glad that we have an opportunity to debate the measure, although we cannot debate it to the extent that other Members and I would have liked.
The Government propose to change the law on the procedure for obtaining an arrest warrant in a private prosecution in a universal jurisdiction case. Such cases are concerned with the gravest crimes against humanity: war crimes, torture, genocide and so on. The Government propose that the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions should be required before any such arrest warrant can be issued.
My area of interest is human rights, so it is on the human rights implications of the clause that I shall focus. I object to the clause and the Government’s proposals because they will undermine the UK’s standing on international human rights issues. The current situation in Libya and recent events there and elsewhere in north Africa and the middle east provide a helpful context for
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the debate. For example, if anyone from Gaddafi’s regime—his sons or other senior political and military cohorts—tries to visit the UK at some point in future, they will be affected by this change in the law.
The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers have been strong in their condemnation of Gaddafi, in their calls for him to face justice, and in their support for the International Criminal Court investigation. I agree with them. The best place for Gaddafi to end up is in front of a court on an ICC indictment for crimes against humanity. However, the existence of the ICC does not absolve us of responsibility to ensure that those most serious of crimes can be prosecuted within our jurisdiction.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the current situation is the best one, because it keeps the Government away from allegations of political bias in cases in which arrests are sought for a court in this country? Clause 152 will bring every prosecution into the political orbit, where it certainly should not be.
Ann Clwyd: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head as usual, and I shall develop that argument in a few minutes.
We still have obligations under the Geneva conventions —they are obligations, and not discretions or permissions —to bring before a court persons suspected of committing the gravest crimes against humanity when we are able to do so. This change in the law will undermine our commitment to those Geneva convention obligations.
Why, then, are the Government seeking to change the law? The Justice Secretary, yesterday, and the Foreign Secretary, last Thursday, set out clearly in replies to questions in the Chamber the reasons why the Government are seeking to do so. The first reason that they gave was that it is too easy to obtain an arrest warrant. They suggested that anyone could turn up on a frivolous pretext, spin a yarn to the court and walk away with an arrest warrant—put a penny in the slot and out comes a warrant! I cannot believe that that argument has carried any weight with anyone at all.
Dr Huppert: I share the right hon. Lady’s deep interest in human rights and I absolutely accept her point. May I, however, go back to what she was saying earlier about the arrest process? Does not she accept that a prosecution is more important than an arrest, and that whether or not the clause is passed, the Attorney-General’s consent will still be required for a prosecution, making the issue a political one? Are we not having the wrong debate? Should not we be debating the Attorney-General’s role in private prosecutions?
Ann Clwyd: That is certainly a subject for future debate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman when he said in Committee:
“I am not persuaded that there is a need for change…I do not think that a sufficiently strong case has been made about why the current system is not working.”––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 17 February 2011; c. 684.]
I hope that he still holds that view.
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Mr Llwyd: On the question of granting a warrant on the basis of flimsy evidence, is the right hon. Lady aware that, according to the Director of Public Prosecutions, there have been only 10 applications in the past 10 years, of which only two were granted?
Ann Clwyd: That was to have been my very next point. It is amazing that in the past 10 years, there have been just two successful applications for arrest warrants, and that they were then either withdrawn or not acted on.
Michael Ellis: Does not that 80% failure rate indicate that people have been making frivolous and vexatious applications? Also, is it not right that proper evidence should be tendered to a court or other authority before the issue of an arrest warrant that could have international ramifications?
Ann Clwyd: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware of the facts. The fact that there have been 10 applications and that only two were granted means that the judges who currently implement this legislation are absolutely spot on. They do not take frivolous applications—quite the contrary: they are only too careful. They are experienced judges, not ordinary magistrates. The current system works comparatively well, and no one can point to any frivolous applications.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): My right hon. Friend might be aware that a document issued by the Liberal Democrats in June last year stated:
“The issue of the arrest warrant for a war crime is decided only by specialist legally qualified magistrates such as the most senior district judge at Westminster Magistrates’ Court. They are well qualified to decide whether the high threshold of evidence, liability and jurisdiction has been met and that no immunity applies…The removal of the right of public prosecution in such cases would have the effect of turning our country into a safe transit point for war criminals, torturers and those guilty of genocide from all over the world.”
Ann Clwyd: My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. Indeed, all the human rights organisations, including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Redress and Justice are opposed to this change in the law.
In Committee, the Minister conceded:
“The problem is not that large numbers of warrants are being issued—the Government are aware of only two”.––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 17 February 2011; c. 682.]
It is incredible that the Government think that that is too many, and that there should be rather fewer. The fact that two arrest warrants have been granted in 10 years should be a matter of concern, not because it is too many but because it is too few.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): I agree with my right hon. Friend that war crimes and crimes against humanity are horrific, but does she really think it just that an arrest warrant was issued against Tzipi Livni who was here seriously to negotiate peace between Israelis and Palestinians and to save lives?
Ann Clwyd:
Well, the other reason the Government gave for the change in the law is, I suppose, the real reason, in respect of which my hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head: it is the Tzipi Livni case. The Government,
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as the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary explained, are changing the law because of an Israeli politician. Changing the law at the request of a foreign Government does not, I would argue, enhance our ability to act as an international peace broker. It does exactly the opposite by undermining our credibility to speak as a country that takes human rights seriously.
Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Is it not incongruous that at the same time as we continue to speak here about human rights, justice and democracy in the middle east, we also have to move this particular amendment?
Ann Clwyd: Indeed. I think it sends the wrong signal at this particular time. I hope I can persuade many more hon. Members of the force of my argument.
In today’s The Guardian online, there is an article, stating that coalition criminal justice plans
“make a mockery of universal jurisdiction”.
“Giving suspects from ‘protected countries’ immunity from war crimes arrests would turn the UK into a safe haven for suspects”.
That was written by an eminent human rights lawyer, Daniel Machower. He goes on to say:
“A legal case for changing the current judicial process, through the senior district judge, has not been made out and parliament is entitled to reject the proposed change on that basis alone.”
I have my own views on the Tzipi Livni case. I happen to regard the crimes documented in the Goldstone report as pretty damning. The very strength of the current system, however, is that it does not matter what my view is: it is a decision taken by a court without political considerations and on the basis of the evidence alone. That is the system that the Government are going to undermine.
Mr Offord: The right hon. Lady claims that accusations against an individual are mentioned in the Goldstone report, but she also talks about people having immunity in this country. What evidential basis does she have for presuming to believe that to be true?
Ann Clwyd: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about—and I doubt whether he does either.
The Opposition Front-Bench team has tabled an amendment proposing to create new units in the Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan police. As the Minister observed in Committee, however, these units already exist for war crimes investigations. The fact that they already exist, and have done for some time, helps to show us what will happen when the Director of Public Prosecutions becomes a gatekeeper for all universal jurisdiction cases: nothing. Yes, nothing will happen. As we learned from a report in The Guardian last month and the work of the all-party group on the prevention of genocide, nearly 400 war criminals are believed to be in the UK right now—from Iraq, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Rwanda, Zimbabwe and the Congo. How many prosecutions have there been? One—just one, which is the Zardad case.
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I conclude here because this is the core of my case. The clause is important because it communicates our attitude towards crimes against humanity and towards international justice.
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend allow me to intervene?
Ann Clwyd: I am concluding; I am sorry.
It is already too hard to try to bring war criminals to justice. Sadly, there are already too few prosecutions. Let us not make it even harder.
Michael Ellis: It might be useful to inject some legal realism into the debate. At present the law in England and Wales provides for no real evidential threshold, and contains no requirement for a prosecutor to check the credibility of a claim before an arrest warrant is issued. In other words, all that is required is for an individual to go into a police station or the equivalent and make an allegation. That allegation amounts to a prima facie case: the establishment of a prime facie case is the smallest burden that must be borne. Attention-seeking lawyers and campaign groups are being given an opportunity to use the arrest warrant process as a campaign tool. To describe it as providing immunity from prosecution is completely wrong in law, in fact and in degree, and if newspapers have described it thus they are simply wrong.
6.30 pm
Dr Huppert: I had much experience of disagreeing with the hon. Gentleman on this matter when the Bill was in Committee. I am now trying to understand how he squares what he is saying with what is actually happening. As we have heard, eight of the mere 10 applications that have been made in 10 years were rejected by the district judge, so the threshold is clearly higher than he is suggesting. Moreover, the clause does nothing about the process of applying for an arrest warrant. People could still apply for one; there would just be a delay before it could be granted.
Michael Ellis: I have a feeling that any Member of Parliament who was subject to the arrest warrant would not be so cavalier as to consider that one or two instances were nothing to worry about. We ought to have a system that applies fairly across the board.
According to a case study, in March last year the former Vice-President of Bosnia, Ejup Ganic, was arrested at Heathrow airport after Serbian judicial authorities issued an extradition warrant. He was accused of conspiracy to murder 40 Yugoslav People’s Army soldiers in an attack in May 1992. He was subsequently released on bail when the judge remarked that the arrest warrant issued by Serbia had been politically motivated. It was reported that Serbia had yet to produce any real evidence, and that most of its supposed evidence consisted of news articles about the incident. City of Westminster magistrates court blocked Ganic’s extradition in July last year. The presiding judge—who, as was pointed out by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), had considerable experience—said that he had been led to believe that the extradition proceedings were
“brought and being used for political purposes, and as such amount to an abuse of the process of this court”
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Having worked in the criminal justice system for 17 years, I am concerned about the way in which the English legal system is perceived abroad, and the ramifications of some of the incidents that have occurred. For generations, the United Kingdom has been at the forefront of peace conferences and other such meetings. The very recent meeting to discuss Libya is a classic example. Circumstances in which people were fearful of entering this country because an extremely low threshold might result in their arrest would be injurious not only to the reputation of the United Kingdom’s legal system, but to the UK’s overall reputation for being a place where peace can be sought and arrangements can be made across the negotiating table. It is not in the interests of world order and international peace for obstructions to be placed in the way of people wishing to enter this country in the way that they have been doing. That does not, of course, apply to only one country; there are several other examples.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the example he gave has nothing to do with private prosecutions being pursued in relation to universal jurisdiction, as it was an extradition matter? Does he not also accept that the court had a very serious threshold and made a very serious judgment, so the process clearly could not be abused for political purposes?
Michael Ellis: It is important to remember that there is the issue of fear of arrest, as well as arrest itself. If someone were to say to anyone in this House, “There’s a prospect of your being arrested should you enter the United States, or France,” they would think very carefully before entering those countries, even if they knew there were no grounds for any allegations and they were entirely innocent. They would not put themselves through the hassle.
Mark Durkan: Can the hon. Gentleman therefore tell us how this clause removes that fear? What signal will people have that the Director of Public Prosecutions would not entertain any such warrant?
Michael Ellis: There seems to be a fear, including in apparently authoritative newspapers, that the provision will grant immunity from prosecution, but all it does is raise the test to the same level as for prosecutions that occur by the thousands per week in this country. Whenever there is an allegation against an individual—whether for murder, shoplifting or anything in between—the Crown Prosecution Service has to consider two tests: whether it is in the public interest to proceed, and whether there is a realistic prospect of conviction. No one suggests that the need to consider whether there is a realistic prospect of conviction in those contexts in effect means immunity from prosecution for everybody, and that is all that will be applying here.
Dr Huppert:
This brings us on to what I consider to be an important point. Shortly after an arrest, the Attorney-General has to engage with deciding whether to continue with the private prosecution; that is one of the weaknesses of the private prosecution system. Does the hon. Gentleman think that one way in which this
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clause might help with prosecutions is that it would be hard for the Attorney-General to overturn a decision by the Director of Public Prosecutions, because he could not come up with the claim about the relevant person being just a magistrate? In fact the Attorney-General might find that he was in a weaker position, and it would be easier to proceed with a prosecution.
Michael Ellis: I am not concerned, as my hon. Friend appears to be, about the Attorney-General, because safeguards are built into our system in this country. The Attorney-General has been in a position similar to that envisaged in the Bill for decades, and there is no evidence whatever that that has been a problem in other areas. There are prosecutions in this country that can take place only with the consent of the Attorney-General, and there are other prosecutions that can take place only with the consent of the DPP—I myself have been involved in one or two of them—but no one is suggesting that those cases involve political interference. The reality is that we have to have safeguards against the misuse of a process that has increasingly been employed in highly controversial circumstances and has deeply injurious effects on international relations and British relations. As I have already enunciated, my primary concern is to maintain the good standing of the English legal system.
Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is deeply confusing me; I hope he did not confuse the courts in the same way when he was practising. We are trying to ensure that people against whom there is prima facie evidence of war crimes or crimes against humanity could be subject to an arrest warrant in this country. The opposite of that is that they would be welcome in this country. I am sure that is not the hon. Gentleman’s intention, but it is beginning to sound a bit like it.
Michael Ellis: Of course it is not my intention that war criminals be welcomed to this country. They would be welcome to be prosecuted in this country, and I would support that. The reality is very different, however, and we must ensure that only appropriate people in appropriate circumstances are subject to the heavy penalty of arrest.
Mike Wood (Batley and Spen) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman said that this provision had been increasingly used—10 times in the past 10 years—but what evidence has he got to suggest that that is the case?
Michael Ellis: As I have said, there are several offences that are rarely used, but whose presence on the statute book is in itself damaging. Many would argue that although the 42-days provision was hardly ever used, its presence on the statute book would not be uncontroversial. During the 13 years of the Labour Government some 3,000 new criminal offences were created, dozens of which have never been prosecuted yet remain on the statute book. The principle is that one ought to be interested in justice for every individual, rather than having no justice for a handful and thinking that because only a handful are being subjected to injustice we should not worry about it.
Mike Wood:
Is the hon. Gentleman agreeing that this provision has not been increasingly used? If so, does he wish to retract what he has just said? Either it has been
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increasingly used or it has not. He said that it has been used 10 times in 10 years, but what was the incidence in the previous 10 years? If he cannot produce that evidence, or if the evidence suggests that this provision has not been increasingly used, perhaps he should withdraw what he has just said.
Michael Ellis: That is a matter of personal opinion. As I have indicated, one would have to make a comparison with the previous 10 years. The universal jurisdiction law is a common law matter and has, therefore, presumably been available for decades. If it has been used only 10 times in the past 10 years, one would have to go back to see what happened during the previous 10 years. Perhaps one would discover that during that period it had never been used once. If that is the case, it has been increasingly used; I would just posit that.
I am conscious of the fact that other hon. Members would like to speak, so may I conclude by saying that Canada is not considered to be a country that is in any way permissive towards war crimes, yet it has adopted a tack similar to the proposed British solution? Although boasting a very broad piece of legislation implementing universal jurisdiction, Canada’s law requires that all claims based on universal jurisdiction first be personally approved by its Attorney-General or deputy Attorney-General before they can be introduced in any court. So I would posit that to Labour Members, and say that if Canada has done this and is doing it—
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab) rose —
Michael Ellis: I am going to finish now. If Canada has done this and is doing it, I see no reason why England and Wales should not do it as well.
Vernon Coaker: I start by saying that we support the Government on the clause. It is strangely placed in this Bill, as it deals with a foreign policy and justice issue, but our foreign policy team has made its support clear. The provision is essential to maintain universal jurisdiction: it allows for the prosecution of war crimes and crimes against humanity anywhere in the world. We also support continuing with private prosecutions.
We do not believe that there should be any weakening in the standards for and likelihood of prosecution, as that would be completely wrong. However, there is a difference between the standards and procedures for arrest and the standards and procedures for prosecution. For prosecution, a higher standard of proof and the agreement of the Attorney-General are needed, whereas for arrest they are not. That means that there could be cases where people are arrested but there is no likelihood of prosecution, because the evidence is not there and the Attorney-General will not give agreement, perhaps because of campaigning on international issues in this country. We do not believe that that is appropriate, especially if it deters people from coming to Britain for purposes associated with diplomacy or peace. So it is essential to make the change that the Government propose, which would bring arrest better into line with prosecution but would not affect the chances of a prosecution. However, if the Director of Public Prosecutions is to take these decisions, he will need to do so swiftly. Justice must not be denied by being delayed.
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Mr Love: Is my hon. Friend not concerned about this? We have been told that the DPP will consult the Attorney-General, who can, of course, consult his Cabinet colleagues, but all that will take place behind closed doors. Is there not a real case to answer about the politicisation of the process?
6.45 pm
Vernon Coaker: That would have been a real danger with the initial proposal concerning the Attorney-General—my hon. Friend is right to highlight that concern—but when the DPP gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee he was very clear about the thresholds that he would use and the way in which he would conduct his business. My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue, but the moving of responsibility for this area from the Attorney-General to the DPP is a significant step forward.
Mr Love: The core of this matter is that the DPP will consult the Attorney-General about the public interest test, and that will be the subject of debate, not the standard of evidence that is available. I return to the same question. As that process will take place behind closed doors, is my hon. Friend not concerned about the politicisation of the process?
Vernon Coaker: The point that I am making is that the DPP’s involvement is to prevent that politicisation, and I was reassured by what he said when he gave evidence to the Committee.
Jeremy Corbyn: I am disappointed in the shadow Minister’s line of argument, because on the question of arraigning someone for crimes against humanity or war crimes, he appears to be saying that there has to be a foreign policy consideration. Surely the decision whether to grant an arrest warrant should be made solely on an evidential basis within international law. It should not be about the perceptions or otherwise of this country, or any other, about foreign policy.
Vernon Coaker: I know that my hon. Friend feels strongly about this, but we are supporting the amendment because this is not only about arrest but about securing prosecution and increasing the likelihood that people can be prosecuted. That is why we support what the Government propose, now that the DPP is involved.
Mr Offord: I am sure that the shadow Minister will recall the DPP’s evidence to the Committee. He said:
“We have people who can work around the clock and…enough trained people so that someone is always available.”—[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 20 January 2011; c. 126, Q241.]
That would prevent anyone from fleeing justice in this country.
Vernon Coaker:
That is one reason why I said that if the DPP is to take decisions he will need to do so swiftly. As I have said, justice must not be denied by being delayed. We believe that the Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan police should play a strong role, as they have in the past, and must not be hit by the cuts. That is why we tabled amendment 154—to ensure that there is no delay and that wherever possible things are
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dealt with as speedily as possible so that the arrest warrant is granted where appropriate, and we can secure a prosecution.
Dr Huppert: I shall try to be brief because a number of hon. Members wish to speak. I have written an article today for “Liberal Democrat Voice” if anyone wants my comments in full—I am sure that hon. Members read it frequently. [ Interruption. ] There is only one version—unlike what happens with the Labour party, whose members seem to give different messages from the back, the front and the side.
I want to talk about how the system would work, and I urge hon. Members to look at the transcript of the DPP’s evidence to the Public Bill Committee, which was very detailed and very reassuring for those of us who want to make sure that prosecutions go ahead. He made it clear that a team was available, as has just been mentioned, and that it would be ready to act. He understood the issue of timeliness and advanced the idea of using a lower threshold test when there is not enough time to gather evidence. Importantly, he also offered to look in advance at evidence about people who we know should be prosecuted, so as to be ready to go at very short notice—to update what would be required and to be able to go ahead. I was very encouraged by that.
Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): I am the chair of the all-party group for the prevention of genocide and crimes against humanity. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) has made the point that there are more than 400 war criminals in Britain, but is the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) aware that only 29 of them are being pursued by SO15? Does that not demonstrate that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff? Clause 152 will do that: it will get right to the heart of the matter and ensure that we have the evidence base to ensure that war criminals are prosecuted.
Dr Huppert: The role of the police is important. Private prosecutions are the wrong way to go about dealing with such people. If a private prosecution has to be used the state has failed to go ahead—but I would like to see it do so. Private prosecutions are an essential safeguard where the state has failed.
Dr Huppert: I shall give way once more, but then I want to conclude and allow other hon. Members to speak.
Yasmin Qureshi: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the provision has been introduced because of the arrest of one individual? We are changing centuries of our law and tradition for the sake of one person.
Dr Huppert: My position was well summarised by an Opposition Member who spoke earlier. It is a shame that there has been a conflation of two separate issues—one about Israel-Palestine and the whole sordid tale there, and the other a legal debate about what the system ought to be. I wish it were possible to have that discussion.
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The DPP made it clear that he would talk to the Attorney-General, but he said five or six times that there would have to be a very powerful weight in favour of prosecuting, because the crime is one of universal jurisdiction. The public interest would have to be overwhelming. I take comfort from that, because I am concerned that at present the Attorney-General can stop any process going ahead. We do not have a functioning private prosecution system in this country, because the Attorney-General can stop any such prosecutions at any stage. Including the DPP in the provision would make it harder for the Attorney-General to do that, because straight after the DPP—a recognised independent person—said, “Yes, there is a case. This person can be prosecuted,” the Attorney-General would be faced with the prospect of saying, “Actually the DPP is wrong. He doesn’t understand this,” and trying to end it.
The provision makes prosecutions easier, and it is prosecutions that I am concerned about. I should like to hear more about how the Government will make sure that the police take stronger action. I should like to hear whether they agree with recommendations from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, on which I serve, that would weaken the role of Attorney-General in terminating private prosecutions. My remaining concern is about the fact that the DPP may decide not to go ahead because the evidence is too weak. If that is genuinely the case, I do not think that any of us would have a problem with it. However, what worries me are cases in which the DPP does not get round to making a decision because there is a pocket veto. I should like an assurance from the Minister that the Government will report on such cases. If there are a large number of them in which a pocket veto is exercised and no proper decision is made, I hope that the Government will look at the matter again and make sure that there is due process.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): There are two minutes remaining, as I will call the Minister at 6.54 pm.
Sir Gerald Kaufman: We heard one Liberal Democrat voice. May I, in the remaining two minutes, quote the Liberal Democrat document which I have already quoted with regard to Tzipi Livni, who has been mentioned? It says:
“Tzipi Livni, as Israeli Foreign Minister, was one of those responsible for authorising these attacks”—
on Gaza, which deliberately targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure—
“and made public statements that appeared to encourage the Israeli military to use disproportionate force and engage in deliberate destruction with no legitimate military objective.”
Sir Gerald Kaufman: I will not give way, because I have only two minutes.
That is the person whom this lot are trying to acquit of the right even to be prosecuted, and even the issuing of a warrant against her. Her parents were terrorists who murdered great numbers of people. She was an Israeli spy in Paris when the Israelis were murdering people all over Europe and were changing the law to suit this war criminal.
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Nick Herbert: The purpose of clause 152 is to require the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions before an arrest warrant for war crimes under the Geneva Conventions Act 1957, and for the few other offences over which the United Kingdom has asserted universal jurisdiction, can be issued on the application of a private prosecutor.
Much of the criticism directed at this provision seems to assume that it will end the right of private prosecution for universal jurisdiction cases—a point that appeared to be made by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) in his brief speech—and, by extension, that it will damage the principle of universal jurisdiction itself. I emphasise that this is simply not the case. Of course the provision has no effect at all on the ability of the police to investigate, and of the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute, alleged offences of universal jurisdiction, but we think it is right that citizens should be able to prosecute these cases, grave as they are. That is why, under our proposal, anyone will still be able to apply to a court to initiate a private prosecution of universal jurisdiction offences by issuing an arrest warrant, where appropriate.
Our approach, therefore, differs from that proposed by the previous Government, which removed the right to private prosecution of offences alleged to have been committed by a foreign national on foreign soil.
Mr McCann: Does the Minister agree that that will prevent the silliness of people like two arch-atheists trying to bring charges against Pope Benedict when he was making an official state visit to this country?
Nick Herbert: I will deal with some of these points as I go on.
All that the provision will do is prevent a warrant being issued in cases where there is no realistic prospect of a viable prosecution taking place. It would not, as the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) claimed when she moved her amendment, give immunity to war criminals. That is not the case.
It has been argued that the consent requirement will lead to delay and allow someone who ought to be prosecuted to leave the country. That is the force of amendment 154. That is a serious point, which the Director of Public Prosecutions addressed when he gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee. I urge those hon. Members who are concerned about the provision to read, if they have not done so already, the DPP’s evidence to the Public Bill Committee, which I believe will give them a great deal of reassurance as to how he would approach the matter.
The DPP is well aware that speed is important in dealing with such applications. He explained that the Crown Prosecution Service has suitably trained staff available around the clock, and they stand ready to act immediately in emergency cases. He also had helpful advice for anyone who wants to pursue a crime of universal jurisdiction, which is that they should not wait until the suspect has arrived here, but should engage early with the CPS. He said that they
“should come to us”—
“with whatever evidence they have, and we will undertake to look at it and to advise.”
30 Mar 2011 : Column 464
It has also been argued, and we have heard this evening, that there is a risk of political interference, given the likelihood that the DPP would consult the Attorney-General.
Nick Herbert: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will not give way; time is short.
I raised such a risk in questioning the DPP, but he made it clear in his evidence that
“the decision is the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions, taken independently.”
He added that consultation between the DPP and the Attorney-General, which is regular,
“acts as no inhibition on the independence that I would bring to the decision. At the end of the day, the decision is mine, it is independent and it is reviewable.”––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 20 January 2011; c. 124-130.]
As my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) pointed out, the DPP also said that there are powerful public interest reasons to prosecute in a case that has satisfied the evidential threshold.
The necessity for the provision has been questioned on two grounds. It is said that the sort of people whom it is designed to safeguard are already covered by immunity. Although this is true of some of the visitors against whom arrest warrants have been sought in the past, it is not true of all. Immunity from criminal jurisdiction applies to certain Ministers, and warrants have been sought against Ministers not covered and those who are not Ministers at all.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Minister give way?
Nick Herbert: I am sorry. I do not have time.
It is said, too, that few warrants have been issued in universal jurisdiction cases, but the problem lies in the perception that a person who is not a British citizen, does not live here, and indeed has no connection with this country apart from being present here, might be at risk of arrest for a very grave crime where there is no prospect of a viable prosecution. That such an occurrence is rare misses the point. The fact is that people who are, or have been, in leading positions in their countries, with whom the Government would wish to engage in discussions, may be discouraged from coming here. That is our concern. That, in turn, creates a risk of damaging our ability to help in conflict resolution or interfere with foreign policy.
Amendment 154 would require special units to be set up in the police and the CPS. The responsibility for investigating universal jurisdiction cases lies with a specialist unit of the Metropolitan police. That unit has the specialist skills and expertise required to conduct those cases, or to decide that an investigation in this jurisdiction is not warranted or feasible. The unit is best placed to evaluate the prospects of being able to protect witnesses or secure their evidence at any trial, identify an individual responsible for the particular conduct to the criminal standard, and deal—
30 Mar 2011 : Column 465
7 pm
Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day).
The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the amendment be made.
The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
The House having divided:
Ayes 37, Noes 480.
[7 pm
AYES
Allen, Mr Graham
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Betts, Mr Clive
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Clwyd, rh Ann
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Danczuk, Simon
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Dowd, Jim
Durkan, Mark
Edwards, Jonathan
Field, rh Mr Frank
Flynn, Paul
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Hendrick, Mark
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr Jim
Hopkins, Kelvin
Jackson, Glenda
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Lammy, rh Mr David
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
McDonnell, John
Mudie, Mr George
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Qureshi, Yasmin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Nick
Winnick, Mr David
Wood, Mike
Tellers for the Ayes:
Hywel Williams and
Jeremy Corbyn
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Amess, Mr David
Anderson, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Berry, Jake
Binley, Mr Brian
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brown, rh Mr Gordon
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burnham, rh Andy
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crausby, Mr David
Creasy, Stella
Crouch, Tracey
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Davey, Mr Edward
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Geraint
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
De Piero, Gloria
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Doran, Mr Frank
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle, Gemma
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Dromey, Jack
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Eagle, Ms Angela
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Engel, Natascha
Eustice, George
Evans, Chris
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Gapes, Mike
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Glass, Pat
Glen, John
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Green, Kate
Greening, Justine
Greenwood, Lilian
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gwynne, Andrew
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Halfon, Robert
Hamilton, Mr David
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Harris, Mr Tom
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Havard, Mr Dai
Hayes, Mr John
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Herbert, rh Nick
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Jarvis, Dan
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Diana
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Mr Marcus
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Keeley, Barbara
Kelly, Chris
Kendall, Liz
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Khan, rh Sadiq
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Lavery, Ian
Laws, rh Mr David
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lloyd, Tony
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lucas, Ian
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Main, Mrs Anne
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McClymont, Gregg
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McKechin, Ann
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Meale, Mr Alan
Mearns, Ian
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Nicky
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Munn, Meg
Munt, Tessa
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murray, Ian
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Nash, Pamela
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Onwurah, Chi
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, Richard
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Pearce, Teresa
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Phillipson, Bridget
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pound, Stephen
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Reed, Mr Jamie
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reeves, Rachel
Reid, Mr Alan
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Robertson, John
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Rudd, Amber
Ruddock, rh Joan
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Shannon, Jim
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shelbrooke, Alec
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Angela
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Smith, Sir Robert
Spellar, rh Mr John
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tami, Mark
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timms, rh Stephen
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Trickett, Jon
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vaz, Valerie
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walley, Joan
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weatherley, Mike
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Chris
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Mr Rob
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr Shailesh Vara and
Mark Hunter
Question accordingly negatived.
30 Mar 2011 : Column 466
30 Mar 2011 : Column 467
30 Mar 2011 : Column 468
30 Mar 2011 : Column 469
The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83E).
Amendment proposed: 154, page 100, line 17, at end insert—
‘(a) A specialist unit shall be established within the Crown Prosecution Service, reporting to the Director of Public Prosecutions, so as to ensure minimal delay in decisions relating to arrest warrants issued under this section.
(b) A specialist unit shall be established within the Metropolitan Police so as to ensure minimal delay in the issuing of arrest warrants under this section.’.—(Vernon Coaker.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The House divided:
Ayes 179, Noes 297.
[7.16 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Coaker, Vernon
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crausby, Mr David
Creasy, Stella
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Dobbin, Jim
Docherty, Thomas
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Eagle, Ms Angela
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Gapes, Mike
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hopkins, Kelvin
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Mr Alan
Mearns, Ian
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murray, Ian
Nash, Pamela
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Lilian Greenwood and
Graham Jones
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Berry, Jake
Binley, Mr Brian
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Munt, Tessa
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, Richard
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rudd, Amber
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr Shailesh Vara and
Jeremy Wright
Question accordingly negatived.
30 Mar 2011 : Column 470
30 Mar 2011 : Column 471
30 Mar 2011 : Column 472
Bill to be further considered tomorrow.
Business of the House
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 15),
That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to Private Members’ Bills may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—(Miss Chloe Smith.)
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Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. During the last debate, I heard a Member make a comment about another Member in this Chamber. The language that they used certainly was not parliamentary. Will you take some action, or advise me on how I might make a complaint against the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) for the comments he made when the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) stood to make an intervention?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): If it had been within earshot of me, obviously I would have dealt with it straight away, but I did not hear anything.
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Private Members’ Bills
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I inform that House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment.
7.28 pm
The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to move,
That, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 14(4), Private Members’ Bills shall have precedence over Government business on 9 September 2011, 21 October 2011, 25 November 2011 and 20 January 2012.
Briefly, the purpose of the motion is to provide extra days for private Members’ business, in line with the Government’s intention to continue this Session until spring 2012. The House will be aware that the Procedure Committee is conducting an inquiry into sitting hours. This is not a debate on the wider issue of process and timings for private Members’ business, which I know the Committee will want to consider.
The previous Government brought forward no extra days in the first Sessions of previous Parliaments. Indeed, in the final Session of the previous Parliament, the then Leader of the House brought forward a resolution that reduced the number of days for private Members’ business. This House must balance the needs of Members to proceed with private Members’ business with other priorities. The Leader of the House has received Back-Bench representations calling for fewer sitting Fridays, to allow Members to spend more time in their constituencies and to reduce the costs of this place. If the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill is agreed and we move to annual spring-to-spring Sessions, we will no longer be faced with the issue of increasing or reducing the number of days.
I cannot recall any previous Government bringing forward a motion to increase the number of sitting days. In the interests of Back Benchers, particularly those who have been successful in the ballot and wish to see their Bills taken forward, I am very happy to do so today. That is a proportionate response, and I hope the House will support the motion.
7.29 pm
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): We welcome the motion that the Leader of the House has tabled. This is a greatly extended Session of Parliament, certainly longer than any that I can remember, and it is therefore right that more time should be allowed for Back-Bench business. As the Deputy Leader of the House said, there are other things to consider about how the House deals with private Members’ Bills and how Members can get a fair hearing for them, but they should and will be dealt with at another time.
Members who table private Members’ Bills deserve the chance for those Bills to receive proper debate and, if they get the necessary support, for them to pass into law. As with all matters before the House, however, we need to ensure that there is a little common sense and, if I may gently say so, a little consideration. Some Members have tabled an amendment to extend the amount of time available for private Members’ Bills, but at the moment a small group of Members are introducing a great many such Bills, which is unhelpful to the House as a whole and to other Members who wish to have their own Bills debated.
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Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Has my hon. Friend noticed, as I have, that the same group of Members are the ones who seem to speak the most on a Friday? Perhaps if they spoke slightly less, we might have more time to make progress on Fridays.
Helen Jones: My hon. Friend tempts me into a matter that is one for Mr Speaker and his deputies. I am sure that if hon. Members were filibustering, Mr Speaker would not allow them to do so.
When I last counted, I think the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) had about 20 Bills on the go, and the hon. Members for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) had 13 each. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of those figures, because my eyes started to glaze over as I went through the list. Frankly, I started to lose the will to live after a while.
The problem comes down to the fact that Members who are successful in the ballot for private Members’ Bills and wish to introduce legislation should have a fair chance to have their Bills debated and voted on. It is up to them to gather enough support from all parties to get their Bills through, but I say to the hon. Members who have tabled the amendment that that cannot happen if others table so many Bills that they block up the system entirely. It is neither fair nor proportionate.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): But that cannot happen in the second part of this extended Session, because there is not going to be a further ballot to allow private Members to take part in the process. Does the hon. Lady agree with the coalition Government that there should not be a further ballot?
Helen Jones: We will wait to see what the Government bring forward, but if the hon. Gentleman thinks that his Bills do not have a chance of getting through, one wonders why he tabled them in the first place.
I hope that we can agree to the motion, so that Members who wish to pursue their private Members’ Bills have a proper opportunity to do so and get a fair hearing from the House.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Peter Bone to move the amendment.
7.33 pm
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am very grateful to Mr Speaker for having selected my amendment, but having heard what the Deputy Leader of the House said in his powerful speech, with your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will not move the amendment. I should instead like to speak to the main motion.
Mr Deputy Speaker: We thank the hon. Gentleman for the clarification. The amendment is not moved.
Mr Bone: Ooh, my pager has just pinged.
I do not know whether to cheer or boo—I have heard some booing tonight. I was slightly disappointed that the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) wished to carry on the old Executive’s way of controlling private Members’ days and having as few as possible. The enlightened view of the Deputy Leader of the House has encouraged me to support the motion, and I am looking forward to the reform of private Members’ business.
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Helen Jones: Can the hon. Gentleman quote back to me anything I said that suggests I want the Executive to have control of private Members’ Bills?
Mr Bone: I cannot—I do not have that sort of memory—but I got the impression that the hon. Lady was saying, “No more extra days,” whereas the previous Government did not support Standing Orders and reduced the number of private Members’ days in a Session, and I shall talk about that briefly later on. That is a key issue. I was hoping she would stand up and say, “Actually, the previous Labour Government got it wrong on that particular point.”
While I am dealing with the hon. Lady’s remarks, I wanted to talk about the process and the number of Members who have tabled private Members’ Bill. She gave the impression that only three Members had tabled Bills.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What does my hon. Friend think would have been the attitude of our late, great friend, Eric Forth to all this? He killed more private Members’ Bills than most of us have had hot breakfasts. Would he have welcomed more days for private Members’ Bills so that more people could indulge their fantasies of adding to the nanny state?
Mr Bone: Eric Forth was perhaps one of the best parliamentarians ever, and I rather think he enjoyed Fridays, so he probably would have liked more.
I saw a wonderful quote from the Leader of the House, who is not in the Chamber, about how wonderful it was to be selected in the ballot. The main obstacle to getting his Bill on the Order Paper was Eric Forth. Eric will probably be looking down now and saying, “Yeah. Actually, we would like more power for Parliament”—he certainly believed in that—“and therefore more power for Fridays.”
Helen Jones: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman needs to search his memory, because what I remember most about Eric Forth, for whom I had a great deal of admiration, is that he spent most of his time on Fridays killing off private Members’ Bills rather than allowing them to get through—[ Interruption. ] As the Deputy Leader of the House says, he would certainly have enjoyed that.
Mr Bone: The hon. Lady has misunderstood my comments. Eric Forth killed off hopeless Labour private Members’ Bills, which he did with great relish. My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) has now taken on that role, and does it extremely well indeed—no doubt we will see some more Bills killed.
As legislators, MPs have the opportunity only on a Friday—on a private Members’ Bill day—to put forward their Bills. I should like to counter the view of the hon. Member for Warrington North. She said that only three Members put down private Members’ Bills on the days that we are discussing. In fact, on 9 September, my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) will promote the Consumer Protection (Postal Marketing) Bill and my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) will promote his Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulation Bill. On 14 October, my hon. Friend the
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Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) will promote the Police Terms and Conditions of Service (Redundancy) Bill.
Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman will admit to slight support for the case of the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones). Of the 112 private Members’ Bills before the House, 51—nearly half—are in the names of the hon. Members who are signatories to the amendment. In fact, their legislative programme is about twice the size of the Government’s.
Mr Bone: There are two things wrong with that. First, when Front Benchers agree on something, it is almost certain not to be the correct way forward. Secondly, the alternative Queen’s speech proposed by certain Members had a reason behind it beyond thinking that all those Bills would be debated.
There are three ways in which private Members’ Bills get debated. Most people think that that happens only through the ballot, but there are also ten-minute rule Bills—they must be debated in the Chamber, when they get an opportunity for Second Reading as a private Member’s Bill—and, of course, presentation Bills. I shall not speak to my amendment, which was not moved because of all the wonderful things that the Deputy Leader of the House said. That is a shame, because I could have quoted what he said in his previous guise as an Opposition spokesman. I will not do that, but he was certainly much more in favour of additional days then than he is now that he is in the Government.
Mr Hollobone: In his intervention, the Deputy Leader of the House seemed to imply that the large number of private Members’ Bills was a bad thing, but actually, it is a very good thing. Parliamentarians are coming forward with proposals for legislation to improve our country and the way of life of our people. Having only four days in the extended programme in which to cram all those Bills is a totally inadequate allocation of parliamentary time.
Mr Bone: My hon. Friend puts that argument much better than I could have done.
I want to go back to the list of Bills, to give the House a flavour of the matter and to show that it is not just three or four Members who are involved. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who has not been mentioned so far, has a non-controversial Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill before the House on 21 October. The hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) has his Master’s Degrees (Minimum Standards) Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) has his Waste Recycling (End Use Register) Bill. I could go on and on, but my point is that these Bills are important to the Members concerned, and they might well be important to their constituents and to the country. They should be heard, and we should not try to restrict debate on them.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con):
I hope that my hon. Friend will be good enough to note that if a Member introduces and prints a presentation Bill, that will demonstrate to the country what they intend to do. My Prevention of Terrorism Bill, for example, would unwind the application of the Human Rights Act 1998 and give
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us a proper terrorism law. Does he also appreciate that it is possible to attach signatures to such Bills by tabling an early-day motion? On one occasion, there were as many as 350 signatures attached in that way. That provides ample evidence of the support that a Bill has, even though the Government, by their continuous diminishing of the opportunities for the House to vote on matters that are important to the people at large—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order.
Mr Bone: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Just to cheer him up, I can tell him that if Friday 18 November had been one of the days selected by the Government, there would have been a Referendums Bill introduced by hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, which he might have been interested in.
Sometimes, private Members’ Bills serve the purpose of getting the issue discussed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has just demonstrated. They also serve the purpose of getting the matter into law. There are a great deal many difficulties involved in getting a private Member’s Bill through the House, and that is why we should not reduce the number of days available on which to debate them. I shall give the House an example of someone who knew how to do all this. Anthony Steen, the former Member for Totnes, got his Anti-Slavery Day Bill through in the dying days of the last Government when no one was watching what he was up to. That was a very important Bill, and we now celebrate anti-slavery day on 18 October. He has changed the national law, and well done to him, but that was only possible because he used the procedures. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) will agree that this is all about knowing the procedures, and that that is what we, as parliamentarians, should be doing.
I must tell the House why I have a problem with the Deputy Leader of the House. He knows of my admiration for him. We have, in the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House, two superb parliamentarians, supported by an equally superb Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell). Selfishly, I hope that they will remain in their posts on 6 May, or whenever the next reshuffle is going to be. We are lucky to have them, and that is why I am slightly disappointed. I cannot remember what the Deputy Leader of the House did before he came to the House. I had the unfortunate problem of being a chartered accountant, and I am therefore used to adding sums up and getting wrong numbers. I think that the hon. Gentleman might have been a chartered accountant, too, because he has added the sums up and got a wrong number. Standing Order No. 14(4) clearly states:
“Private Members’ bills shall have precedence over government business on thirteen Fridays in each session to be appointed by the House.”
There is no question about that.
Now this is where I was a little disappointed by the hon. Member for Warrington North, who I guess is shadow Deputy Leader of the House. In the last Session of the last Government, there were only five private Members’ days. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady mutters—she could have acted properly and intervened—that that is because it was a short Session. She well knows, however, that that is not allowed for in the Standing Orders. We must have 13 days.
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If I were to be generous to the last Labour Government, as I always am, I would say that they quite properly argued that the eight days lost because it was a short Session should be added on to the longer Session that would run from the election in May—not to the November of that year, but to that of the year after. I am happy to accept this argument, which gives us eight more days for a start.
The Government have given us the 13 days that we would normally have in a Session—there is no argument about that; they are absolutely correct—but there are, of course, the eight that have been missed. That takes us up to 21 already. Because the Government are moving towards a five-year, fixed-term Parliament, which I agree with, and there will be one-year parliamentary Sessions, they have added from November 2011 to May 2012—I reckon that is six months—and assumed that to be half a year. What we need, the Government have said, is half of 13, which seems to come to four.
Now I reckon half of 13—as an accountant, I have to round up—comes to seven. What we should have, then, are the 13 days the Government have given us, the eight that the previous Government took away, plus the seven for the additional term. If I add seven and 13, I get 20 and if I add eight, I get 28. This is my problem; I think we should have 28 days.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): My hon. Friend is, as ever, making a very powerful speech. Does he agree that, on that basis, the amendment—I fully understand the reasons why it was not moved—is a compromise? It might almost be described as the third way.
Mr Bone: As always, I was trying to be helpful and considerate towards the Government. In fact, on the day before yesterday, I had a fine meeting in private with the Leader of the House. After our conversation, he was very clear. I had impressed him so much that he said, “Peter, I have not given you a wink, nod or any indication that the Government have moved from their current position”, which is, of course, exactly what happened. They did not move and they slapped this motion down for tonight.
Let us get back to the number of days: the 13 plus the seven that we should get under the Government’s own very generous thought, as they are extending the Session. If we add the eight, we get 28 days. I would have accepted 28 days, but I thought, “Let us look at it another way, as accountants always do it twice”. If we are moving towards one-year parliamentary Sessions—from May to May— we are going to have 13 private Members’ Fridays in each year. That is very clear, and that will kick in in May 2012. From May 2010 when this Parliament started—on 18 May, I think—to May 2011 would provide us with 13 days. From May 2011 to May 2012 would provide another 13, making 26. As a chartered accountant, I have done the sums and come up with two different answers. We should have either 26 days or 28 days.
Unfortunately, when the Deputy Leader of the House came up with his calculations, he came up with 17 days, which is the 13 days that we had to be given, plus the extra four. That is why I wonder whether he is another chartered accountant. He has clearly come up with a completely different result from that most people expected.
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On a serious note, I just think that this was a great opportunity to fix broken promises. I re-read the Prime Minister’s excellent speech of 26 May 2009 when he said he wanted to return powers to Parliament and to Back Benchers. He wanted MPs to be independent. I have taken that to heart and tried to be independent and tried to be a parliamentarian, but the lack of days will restrict my ability to do that.
I encountered another difficulty today when I received a text message from a constituent saying “If you do not get this amendment through, it will mean that you will be at home more often.” I want to know what the Deputy Leader of the House will say to Mrs Bone about that, because it seems to me that parliamentarians should be here scrutinising the Government. The provision of a private Members’ day once a month—which is what this amounts to—is surely not a problem, and I feel that we have missed an opportunity.
I know that there are pressures on those in government, I know that the Executive want to control everything, and I understand that that is the old way. I also know that the Prime Minister wants to get away from that, and wants a new politics that will make the House of Commons more important. I did not move my amendment for precisely the reason given by the Deputy Leader of the House: we are moving towards the establishment of a Business of the House Committee, and once we have such a Committee, none of these problems will arise. Everything will be sweetness and light, because Parliament rather than the Executive will allocate the days.
I was so encouraged by the fact that reform of the private Members’ Bills procedure was being considered seriously that it would have been absurd for me to argue for the provision of 13 extra Fridays. In a few months’ time the Leader of the House will stand at the Dispatch Box, announce that private Members’ Bills will be debated on Wednesday evenings, and say “We have thought about this, and we are going to grant such-and-such a number of extra days.” I see this as a holding debate in anticipation of those reforms. I am encouraged by what has happened today, and I will therefore support the motion in the hope of seeing the reforms introduced a little later.
7.51 pm
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am disappointed by what the Government have done tonight. My starting point is to ask why they are doing this at all. Why is this something that we had to let the Government propose? It seems to me that it is a matter for the House—that the House should decide how many days it will devote to private Members’ Bills. I should have thought that a sensible discussion between the Leader of the House’s office and the Backbench Business Committee would have come up with a far more sensible procedure.
The way in which time is allocated for private Members’ Bills has serious implications for the Backbench Business Committee. Despite the best efforts of the Deputy Leader of the House, who is doing a very good job in the absence of the Leader of the House—I am disappointed that the Leader of the House is not present, given that he told us that this was such an important issue that it had to be debated tonight—we have not heard how he calculated the four extra days. We heard a superb analysis from my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough
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(Mr Bone) of how the Government might have arrived at that figure, but that is only the best estimate of my hon. Friend. It is not actually the process employed by the Government, and it is the Government who allocate time to the Backbench Business Committee.
I should like to know whether the same process of calculation, which is so obscure and opaque that none of us knows what it is, will be applied to the allocation of Back-Bench business time. The Backbench Business Committee, and, I would hope, all Back Benchers, will be extremely concerned if, in an extended parliamentary Session that is the equivalent of two normal parliamentary years, Back-Bench time is not also equivalent to two full parliamentary years. I should welcome an intervention from the Deputy Leader of the House if he wishes to reassure me that my fears are unfounded, but I fear that we could be running into trouble.
The other thing that we have not heard from the Deputy Leader of the House is why he has chosen these particular Fridays. What is special about 9 September, 21 October, 25 November and 20 January 2012? Why have they been chosen rather than any of the other Fridays? I would have hoped the Deputy Leader could give us an explanation for that.
The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) criticised those of us who have tabled quite a large number of private Members’ Bills, and she was generous enough to mention in passing myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough. She might find reassurance in the fact that none of the Bills my hon. Friend or I have tabled has reached the top of the list for discussion in this parliamentary Session. Despite our best efforts, we have not had the opportunity of parliamentary time to test our ideas in the Chamber. I do not believe we should be criticised for trying, however; we are doing our best on behalf of our constituents to put forward ideas to improve our nation, and that is entirely laudable.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I have a lot of time for the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), but I, too, was a little disappointed in her statement that Members who thought they had no serious chance of making progress with their Bill should just withdraw it.
Helen Jones: I did not say that.
Mr Bacon: The hon. Lady did say words to that effect, as the record will show. I have paraphrased, but that is essentially the meaning of what she said: that Members who thought they had no serious chance of making progress with Bills should withdraw them. I have been trying for seven years to get food labelling legislation on to the statute book. The fact that I have now had to introduce a Bill four times, and that at each stage people have said I have very little chance of succeeding, has never stopped me trying.
Mr Hollobone:
I commend my hon. Friend for his efforts with his private Member’s Bill, and I am delighted that this coming Friday it is listed fourth on the Order Paper. I hope that by some magical intervention it might rise further up the Order Paper and we therefore get a chance to debate it, scrutinise it and vote on it so
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that it can make further progress in this place. I will be making a special effort to be here on Friday to hear my hon. Friend discourse on his Bill, and I know other hon. Friends will also make a special effort. I do not share the view that being here in the Chamber on a Friday is not an appropriate use of a Member of Parliament’s time. I do not know where the idea that every Friday has to be a constituency day came from. I think it is probably a new Labour invention. They tried to persuade Members of Parliament not to turn up to this place so we did not scrutinise the Government and instead let the Executive get away with quite a lot.
Mr Cash: A number of incredibly important private Members’ Bills have got through in the teeth of Government opposition, such as those on the abolition of capital punishment, the beginnings of the whole of the suffragette movement—that can be read about in the Library—the removal of obstacles preventing women’s enfranchisement, and at present, of course, the United Kingdom Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill. The important point is that these Bills were proceeded with in the teeth of Government opposition. That shows why we need to have this time.
Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend is a far greater expert in parliamentary affairs than I will ever be, and I would willingly give all 13 days in a parliamentary Session to him so he can bring forward sensible legislation to improve the life of our nation. The point he makes is incredibly powerful.
I am a bear of little brain—I am not, I am afraid, an accountant or a lawyer—but I believe that there are 52 Fridays every year, while 13 Fridays are normally listed for private Members’ legislation. Members therefore have plenty of Fridays to devote to tending to the needs of their constituents. The idea that we have to sacrifice a large proportion of those 13 Fridays to enable more constituency days is misguided. The real reason for this is that the Executive do not want Members bringing forward ideas that the Government do not control, and which, according to them, might possibly get out of control. That is a big mistake.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Surely for those people introducing Bills and legislative change the proceedings on Fridays are an extension of representing their constituents here and making the changes they want.
Mr Hollobone: Those wise words from across the Irish sea are extremely welcome, and it would be great if more Members of this House thought that way. I know that the hon. Gentleman is an assiduous attender, who stands up and speaks up in this place on behalf of his constituents. He is not frightened of scrutinising legislation, and private Members’ Bills are all part of that parliamentary process. Each of us, no matter what party we represent, is the only person from our constituency entitled to sit in this Chamber and speak up on behalf of our constituents. If we can do that to good effect on those 13 Fridays, more power to our elbow.
Mention has been made of the late, great Eric Forth, who was an outstanding parliamentarian. One of Eric’s great attributes was that although he did try to scrutinise private Members’ Bills in great detail, he would not have been in favour of reducing the number of parliamentary Fridays. He would have said that it is everyone’s right to try to introduce legislation, but that legislation must be
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scrutinised effectively in this place. We heard a comment earlier about the difficulties of Bills making progress, but the point of this place is not to make progress with Bills: it is to scrutinise them and to allow their passage once they are in a fit and proper shape. I very much hope that my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) will demonstrate that to good effect this Friday, given the years of work he has put into honing his legislation in fine detail, and ensuring that every nook and cranny has been explored and every possible difficulty ironed out. If Parliament did not exist, we would not be able to scrutinise legislation in that way, which is why these private Members’ Fridays are so important.
Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that one way in which good ideas in private Members’ Bills reach the statute book, even if they are not successful in reaching it on a Friday through the normal procedure, is by being adopted by the Government and, on occasion, by being fitted into Government Bills?
Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend speaks wise words, and I can give him an exact example of what he describes from this very week. I have sponsored the non-controversial Face Coverings (Regulation) Bill. It is one of my Bills that has not reached the Floor of the House, but on Monday the Home Secretary stood at the Dispatch Box and said that the Government were looking into the difficulty of controlling all the yobs in these riots who cover their faces. My Bill would make it an offence for someone to cover their face for the purpose of obscuring their identity. I was pleased to be able to draw that to the Home Secretary’s attention this week, and I very much hope that she will look at my Bill and see how it might be best adapted to meet the Government’s needs. The quickest way to facilitate any advantage to this country in that becoming law would be to introduce the Bill in Government time in this place.
However, in response to my hon. Friend, may I say that I have a feeling that one reason why the Government are nervous about granting too many private Members’ Fridays is because they have recently had a bad experience in this place with the Daylight Saving Bill? Lots of hon. Members were determined to see that Bill make progress and they gave up their Friday to attend in numbers to ensure that its Second Reading passed, despite Government opposition. Governments do not like getting their fingers burned, which may be one reason why they have, in effect, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough said, reduced the number of days to which this House is entitled.
I am sorry, but the House of Commons does not exist for the convenience of Her Majesty’s Government. The House of Commons exists to hold Her Majesty’s Government to account, because without Parliament the Executive would be able to run amok. On these Benches sit centuries of tradition and scrutiny of the Executive, and the private Members’ Bill process is part of that process of trying to improve the life of our nation. I am disappointed that the Government are being so mean as to allow only four extra private Members’ days, because at the very least the number should be 13. I very much hope that when the House Business Committee is up and running, we will have a proper sensible allocation of days for private Members’ Bills.
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8.5 pm
Mr Heath: With the leave of the House, I should like to respond. I am grateful to hon. Members who have contributed to the debate and particularly to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) for the way in which he approached it. I know from having argued this case with him, often in similar terms, that it is something he cares passionately about and feels should happen.
I have indicated that a number of things will affect how the House deals with this matter in future, such as the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, which will bring more certainty and uniformity to parliamentary Sessions. Also, as the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) said, there is the prospect of the Backbench Business Committee being evaluated and the Government are committed to bringing forward proposals for a business of the House Committee, which will take on the difficult role of making sure that the interests of all Members are properly taken into account, as far as possible, given that some of them compete. That seems proper.
We also have the Procedure Committee doing something that the Wright Committee suggested but did not have the opportunity to see through. The Wright Committee recognised that there was a problem with how we deal with private Members’ Bills, but it could not come up with a solution in the tight time scale within which it was operating. It therefore suggested that this Parliament should look into the matter, which is why my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House asked the Procedure Committee to look at the process for private Members’ Bills. We look forward eagerly to its report.
Various things are in motion and we have attempted to respond to the legitimate request for more time. Let me emphasise that this is the first time that a Government have provided more time for private Members’ Bills in a long Session to enable those who have been successful in the ballot and whose Bills are receiving consideration in Committee to make progress if that is the will of the House—it is the House that decides whether that should be the case.
Mr Hollobone: Is the Deputy Leader of the House going to enlighten us as to the calculation by which he arrived at four extra days?
Mr Heath: It is a matter of balance. It is about looking at the time available and the competing pressures on Members. We came up with a proposal that the House could consider this evening and that proposal is certainly a lot better than anything that has been suggested before. I think the hon. Member for Wellingborough accused me of being an accountant, but I really am not.
Mr Bone: You might be a lawyer.
Mr Heath: Neither am I a lawyer—that is even worse. I was formerly an optician, which is perhaps why I want to focus on the interests of all Members of the House in finding what suits them best.
Let me deal with an issue that the hon. Member for Kettering raised, which is not directly related to private Members’ Bills but is within the same context—the time allocated to the Backbench Business Committee. He said there was some arcane or obscure formula, but there is not: the formula was determined by the Wright
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Committee. The Government were committed to introducing the reforms proposed by the Wright Committee and that is exactly what we did. We have been clear throughout that we will continue to allocate time to the Backbench Business Committee to enable it to do its work and to provide time for Back-Bench Members of the House. We have done so throughout this Session on the basis of about one day a week. We will continue to do exactly what we have done, and most people believe that the allocation is fair and has been used sensibly.
Mr Heath: This is the last time that I shall give way, because I was about to conclude.
Mr Nuttall: Is there any particular reason why no Fridays have been allocated in February or March 2012?
Mr Heath: We must remember the interests of Members who have been successful in the ballot and want their legislation to proceed. If they are to succeed in putting something on the statute book, they need time at the end of the process. This is a bicameral Parliament. The Commons must do its work, but another place must scrutinise and revise legislation. It does not make sense to have days for private Members’ Bills abutting the end of the Session, effectively preventing worthy pieces of legislation that have completed scrutiny in the Commons from making further progress. There is a rationale behind the proposals, but that is a matter for the House. I hope that the House will take a view on the matter. I am satisfied that we are making another significant reform to the way in which the House works, again taking time away from the Executive and giving it to Back-Bench Members, which is right, proper and proportionate. I commend the motion to the House.
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004 (Remedial) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 20 December, be approved.—(Stephen Crabb.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the Export Control (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2011 (S.I., 2011, No. 580), dated 2 March 2011, a copy of which was laid before this House on 2 March, be approved.—(Stephen Crabb.)
European Union Documents
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)),
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Annual Growth Survey
That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 18066/10 and Addenda 1, 2 and 3, relating to the Annual Growth Survey: advancing the EU’s comprehensive response to the crisis; supports the Government’s objective of promoting strong, sustainable and balanced economic growth in the EU, with particular regard to EU-level actions aimed at strengthening the single market and trade, enhancing innovation and ensuring smarter EU regulation; welcomes the Commission’s new Annual Growth Survey and its focus on the urgent need for the EU and its Member States to promote economic growth and employment; and urges the EU to ensure that policies align with the need for EU growth and jobs and the need to reduce deficits.—(Stephen Crabb.)
Delegated Legislation (Committees)
That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Care of Cathedrals Measure (HC 868), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Stephen Crabb.)
That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure (HC 870), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Stephen Crabb.)
That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Mission and Pastoral Measure (HC 869), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Stephen Crabb.)
Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993
That, for the purposes of its approval under section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s assessment, as set out in the Budget Report and the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook, shall be treated as if it were an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation).—(Stephen Crabb.)
Petition
Development (Luton)
8.12 pm
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I wish to present this petition on behalf of Mr Pat Conway, No-to-North group co-ordinator, of 407 Turnpike drive in my Luton North constituency, and 947 other signatories. The petitioners oppose development to the north of Luton, and have set out the reasons for their objections, believing that there are better alternatives for growth that should be considered instead. The petitioners therefore request that
the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage Luton Borough Council to consider alternative sites for development in and around Luton.
Following is the full text of the petition:
[The Petition of residents of Luton,
Declares that the Petitioners strongly object to the Strategic Specific Site Allocation to the North of Luton, to the employment sites at Sundon and beside the A6 and to the proposed Luton Northern Bypass; notes that the Petitioners believe that the location for development is
30 Mar 2011 : Column 487 wrong because of the distance to Luton Town Centre, the limitation to increase capacity on the existing roads like the A6 and B579, the impact on schools and other local facilities, its poor location in relation to public transport, the direct impact on Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, the negative social and economic impacts on the nearby residents and the costs to the taxpayer; and further notes that the Petitioners believe that there are better alternatives for growth instead.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage Luton Borough Council to consider alternative sites for development in and around Luton.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.]
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Community Facilities (Flitch Green)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Stephen Crabb.)
8.13 pm
Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): My first preference was to entitle this debate “The Battle of Flitch Green”, but I was advised against doing so lest a Defence Minister be sent to the Dispatch Box. Nevertheless, a long drawn-out battle has taken place over this community.
Once upon a time, there was a sugar beet factory on the site of what is now the parish of Flitch Green. That, after it ceased operation, remained a monument on the landscape for quite some time, but in the wake of the Stansted airport inquiry in the 1980s, when sites were being considered for what was termed airport-related housing, the site there became one of those eventually selected and was then given the title Oakwood Park.
There were 485 houses in the original allocation, although that had been increased to 655 by 2001, and not many bricks had been placed on bricks before a further 160 were added, bringing the total to 815 houses. The original application was granted on appeal in 1998. The provision of social and community facilities was regulated by a section 106 obligation imposed by the planning directorate. There were specified a multipurpose community hall, a village car park, sports pitches, a local equipped area for play and a neighbourhood area for play. These were meant to be provided by the time the 501st house was completed. None was.
Not part of the obligation, but glowingly described in published literature, no doubt designed to arouse interest in the village, were locations for shops, a surgery and a pub, as well as a landscaped area. The brochures stated:
“Shops including a small supermarket will be provided to serve the local convenience needs of the new residents”,
“A pub/restaurant with dedicated parking is proposed for a site overlooking the village green”.
“The village green will be of traditional form surrounded by avenues of large trees . . . and will be of a size to accommodate a cricket pitch and junior soccer pitch and could incorporate a small pavilion.”
Picture the scene; it might even have come from one of my books! However, there is no need to imagine, because there were colour illustrations in the brochures showing an idyllic village in a rural setting—but before my hon. Friend the Minister is tempted by my words to ring a local estate agent and ask about vacancies, he should beware. If he were to go there, he would not find any of the facilities that I have just described.
The good news—the only good news—was that the development company, Enodis, has built a community hall and laid out a young children’s playground. The bad news, however, is that the hall was only very recently adopted because, in the words of the planning authority, Uttlesford district council,
“its appalling construction required a great deal of remedial work to make it acceptable.”
That is the limit of what has been done at Flitch Green. Not even the roads are of adoptable standard.
The technique employed by the development company to delay the provision of facilities which, if not legally bound, it was honour-bound to provide, was to put in a
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fresh planning application for additional houses. In those circumstances, it seems that the court would not grant the planning authority an enforcement because it would theoretically be possible that some change might be made in the layout of the plans for the village.
The application would be refused by the district council, it would go to appeal, it would be turned down on appeal, it would go to judicial review, it would be turned down again, and then the process could recommence. Another planning application could go in. That is how the time has been spent—going to court, going to inquiry, and not providing facilities that people were entitled to expect. Enodis could fairly be called a sort of corporate artful dodger.
I make allowance for the fact that the contractor, Colonnade, which was to have built the village centre, went into liquidation, which has caused a separate hold-up. The district council has also given approval for another 98 homes, which brings the total to well over 900.
There are currently three planning applications before the council. First, there is an application for a village centre adjacent to the one that has fallen foul of the collapse of Colonnade. Secondly, there is an application for a sports field. It is not the original sports field, but a much better one that has apparently been given approval by Sport England. Unfortunately, it is not in the parish of Flitch Green, but in the neighbouring parish of Felsted. Thirdly, an application has been made for a further 107 houses. Even if Uttlesford district council were minded to approve the applications, Enodis, on past form, would probably build only the houses, as it would be under no obligation to implement the planning permissions given for the village centre and the sports field.
There we have it. Some of my constituents have been living in Flitch Green for 10 years, but there is still no sign of the shops, no sign of the pub or restaurant and no sign of the village green. In 2008 a leaflet was circulated by Enodis stating, “We want your views.” Of the then 650 households, only 18% responded—I suspect that most were completely feed up with Enodis by that time. To the question, “Do you want the playing field and large area of play the other side of the Stebbing brook?”, meaning in Felsted, as shown on Enodis’s latest planning application, 121 people said no and 34 said yes. Enodis took the number of abstentions to mean approval, and of course the people of Felsted were not asked. However, when views are expressed by the elected parish councils of Flitch Green and Felsted and the elected district council of Uttlesford, Enodis simply does not listen.
Enodis’s latest line is to say that there are deficiencies in Uttlesford district council’s five-year housing supply chain and that that should be a factor in determining the application for the final phase of Flitch Green. That would mean another 107 houses on the site that was designated as the sports field in the original master plan. The parish of Flitch Green would like the sports field to be in that original position. It does not approve of the line of Stebbing brook being crossed and the playing fields put on the other side. The parish of Felsted certainly does not approve of that, because it fears that in-filling would follow between the sports field and the present boundary of buildings in the parish.
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What worries me is that, were the Government prepared to go along with the argument being put forward by Enodis, Uttlesford district council would be denied the ability to make its own plans for housing provision for the future. That would certainly flout the opinion of the two parish councils. In those circumstances, one would be tempted to ask, “What price localism then?” I say to the Minister, after this appalling history of manipulation, that Enodis’s disgraceful and contemptuous attitude shows that this is a battle it should not be allowed to win.
8.24 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing this debate and on the powerful way in which he has put forward his constituents’ concerns. I am sure that everyone who has listened to the debate will understand why those concerns have been raised.
The debate raises important issues about the provision of community facilities, the planning process, the operation of section 106 agreements and the means by which planning gain—as it is often referred to—is captured for the benefit of the community. Those are important issues of policy that the Government are determined to address, because often it is the failure to give communities a tangible benefit from development and growth that makes them wary of growth and creates opposition. The Government, on the other hand, are keen to encourage sensible and sustainable development in the right place and with the support of local residents.
My right hon. Friend naturally and rightly concentrated on the battle of Flitch Green. Earlier, when we were unsure when we would reach this Adjournment debate, I would have been grateful for his having secured the debate on the battle of Flitch Green, so that one of my hon. Friends from the Ministry of Defence would have had to reply. As it is, however, I am glad to be able to respond while it is still today. He has set out in detail the history of the matter and difficulties faced by residents in securing the facilities that they were anticipating as part of a broader development. He pointed out that extant planning applications are under consideration, so he will understand why, owing to the responsibility of my Department and the Secretary of State in the planning process, I cannot comment in detail on the facts of the matter.
I hope, however, that I can assure my right hon. Friend that the Government are seized of the policy issues of concern that he raised. It seems that what has happened falls within permitted conduct under the law as it stands. That highlights the fact, however, that there are some deficiencies in the legal framework. Planning obligation is a well established concept and a valuable one. Planning obligations are legal agreements between developers and local authorities, and deliver what is necessary to make a development acceptable in order to obtain planning consent. It is necessary for planning obligations to meet clear policy and statutory tests to be acceptable considerations in the grant of planning permission.
Fortunately, the data that our Department have show that generally planning obligations deliver many millions of pounds worth of community facilities, affordable
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housing, open spaces, education facilities and other benefits each year. In by far the majority of cases, those obligations are delivered successfully. I am sorry to hear the history of my right hon. Friend’s case, where that does not seem to have happened, but generally they are a useful tool. Of course, there are always exceptions—and they are to be regretted—but I cannot say more about that.
It is worth setting out the current policy and legal position. Where developers have breached their legal obligations in this regard, the planning authority has powers to take legal action to enforce them, and that is done through the courts. The local authority also has the right to carry out the obligation itself and then recover any expenses incurred from the developer in question. As with any enforcement decision, there are resource implications, and the local authority has to weigh up the best course of action in each case. I am sure that Uttlesford council, as a responsible local authority, has done that.
We are seeking to revisit the approach through which we capture this planning gain. As my right hon. Friend rightly said, it seems that the situation in his case relates to section 106 agreements, which, although well established, have grown in their extent. It is the Government’s intention to seek an alternative route to capture the majority of planning gain.
We will give incentives and benefits to communities through the new homes bonus, which will enable councils to benefit financially from granting permissions. However, alongside the new homes bonus, we also intend to retain and reform the community infrastructure levy, which we envisage as the principal vehicle through which planning gain will be secured for the benefit of a community in future. That will enable a local authority to levy a charge in relation to development. We are determined to ensure—this is in the Localism Bill, which is currently before this House—that a meaningful proportion of the levy will be returned to the benefit of the community in the area of the development concerned.
Compared with the use of section 106-type planning obligations, the community infrastructure levy—or CIL—provides a fairer, and more transparent and predictable mechanism for raising contributions to the sort of facilities that we have been talking about. That will enable section 106 planning obligations to be scaled back and focus more on the site-specific issues that are necessary to enable the development to be granted planning permission, such as providing screening to protect existing houses, access roads to the site and so on. The CIL will remove much of the uncertainty around section 106 contributions. CIL rates will reflect development viability and—importantly in this context—there will be a mandatory up-front charge.