The hon. Lady said that her premise was affordability and access to housing. May I remind her that, given that 40%—and in some areas, including coastal towns, 70%—of those in the private rental market are in receipt of housing benefit, it is critical that we keep control of the amount of money going out in housing benefit? That way we can help the very first-time buyers whom
13 Jun 2011 : Column 599
she purports to want to help, who are finding it so difficult to get into the purchase market at the moment, and who need to go into the rental market. The previous Government let those people down by not keeping control of housing benefit rents during their tenure.
Ms Buck: The statistic that 40% of the market is subsidised by the local housing allowance is central to the Government’s argument. Will the hon. Lady finally, helpfully source that figure? Figures released in the English housing survey last month confirmed that only 24% of those in the total private rented sector in England were on LHA. Although there are regional variations, it would be helpful if we could finally and definitively have the source for that 40% claim.
Maria Miller: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I shall be happy to write to her with the full details, and to remind her that the proportion is only 40% on average; as I said, it is 70% in some coastal areas. That is a significant issue that helps to determine the rental rates that many people—[Interruption.] I think I just said that I would write to the hon. Lady with the details. I do not have them to hand now.
The important matter to which I now turn is my response to the two amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Westminster North and the one tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) for us to consider today. We said in the universal credit White Paper that an appropriate amount would be added to the universal credit award to meet the costs of rent for claimants. We also said that levels of support for rent would be broadly similar to the support provided through housing benefit at the time that claimants began to move on to universal credit. In the private rented sector, we will build on the local housing allowance approach, incorporating the reforms that we are making over the coming year. This will give private rental tenants access to about 30% of the rental market in their areas, including most of London.
We also need, however, to do more to constrain the growth in rents, which is why increases will be limited in line with the consumer prices index. This will ensure that we continue to put the sort of downward pressure on rents that is so important to keeping control of our budgets and to affordability for those not in the housing benefit market.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): May I offer an alternative solution for keeping rents low? How about building more council houses and housing association houses, and getting the construction markets on the go as well?
Maria Miller: I would not want to incur the wrath of Mr Speaker by going into such issues, which are more to do with my colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government. Certainly, however, my Department has a responsibility to ensure that we apply that downward pressure on rents in order to ensure affordability for people across the board.
Dame Anne Begg: The housing associations in my area are saying that because they are likely to have people defaulting on their rents, such housing will no longer be a good investment, and for that very reason further building programmes are likely to be curtailed. That is the result of the Government’s policies.
13 Jun 2011 : Column 600
Maria Miller: I know that that issue has been brought up, and we will work on it with the landlords concerned. Obviously, we do not want that to be the position: we want to ensure that there is no problem with the money that flows to landlords. We will work hard to address that.
Mrs Louise Mensch (Corby) (Con): Does my hon. Friend share my amazement, and that of hard-working people in my deprived constituency of Corby, that the Opposition—the Labour party—are trying to prevent us from maintaining downward pressure on rents?
9.45 pm
Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to be incredulous about the Labour party’s position. She should also express incredulity at the fact that the Labour Members do not seem to have a policy—apart from opposition to the proposals.
I remind hon. Members that the restriction will apply only in areas where local market rent increases at the 30th percentile exceed the annual rate of increase in the CPI. We have said that we are committed to making savings from that measure, but if it becomes apparent that the LHA rates and rents are out of step, that can be reconsidered, as I said in Committee.
Let me briefly consider amendment 72, which raises an important issue for us all. We want to ensure proper and accurate monitoring of the impact of the introduction of our policies. Indeed, we have put that in place for the work capability assessment and our reform of DLA. My hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff Central and for Redcar (Ian Swales) are right to highlight the importance of having an accurate method of assessing the impact of our policies. That is an important and prudent part of Government policy. I hope that my hon. Friends will be reassured that we have already commissioned independent external research to evaluate the impact of the housing benefit reforms that we announced in June 2010 in the Budget and in the spending review. The review will be comprehensive and thorough and presented to both Houses, together with a ministerial statement. We intend to make final findings available in 2013, with initial findings available in 2012.
Jenny Willott: There is a huge range of issues that we clearly cannot cover this evening in the time available to us. However, I would be grateful if the Under-Secretary ascertained whether one matter in particular could be included in the review: how foster children are covered. As I understand it, foster children are not counted in the allocation of bedrooms. The way in which the measure is implemented could have a significant impact on local authorities’ ability to recruit foster carers, and on the care that can be provided for foster children. That has not been covered in the debate so far.
Maria Miller:
My hon. Friend makes an important point, which has been raised with me on a couple of occasions. I remind her that currently there is no additional allocation of housing for families with foster children. There is an accrual within the payments that are made to cover additional housing costs. However, she makes the important point that, whatever our housing policies, we should not disincentivise or put unnecessary barriers
13 Jun 2011 : Column 601
in the way of foster carers who do so much to give children who cannot live with their own families the sort of start in life that they need.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Does the review—or any of the reviews—include the further point about which the Secretary of State said he wanted to be helpful—ensuring that there is a possibility that broad market rental areas become more coterminous with local authorities? Will the review cover where people might move to, so that they are not obliged to move out of their natural communities, which in most cases in London would be the local authority area where they currently live?
Maria Miller: I thank my right hon. Friend for that comment. I am not aware that the research will cover that at this time, but perhaps I could consider that in more detail. He has raised that point in the past.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): Will the Under-Secretary give way?
Maria Miller: Would my hon. Friend mind if I made a tiny bit more progress on the amendment, and tried to deal with some of the others?
In that spirit, we are considering the most effective way of monitoring and evaluating the housing support measures. That will enable us to understand the effectiveness of the measures in the same way as we will understand the 2011 measures. However, reviewing the operation of the changes in the first year will be too soon—something that I have also considered in relation to other measures in the Bill. We need to ensure that the measures have time to mature and bed in, so that their effectiveness can be properly evaluated. I am not sure that I agree with my hon. Friends that conducting such a review after the first year would be the best way to assess the effectiveness of our policies. Therefore, I cannot commit to the timetable that they propose, even if we are attracted to the idea of conducting comprehensive research. However, I can reassure them that we are looking at ways of funding an external review—this time on the measures in the Bill—and that we will consider that in some detail in the coming months.
Amendment 32 was also tabled by the Opposition. I am sure that Members are aware of the pressures that we face in social housing; indeed, there are some facts that we have to consider before we can look at the amendment in any detail. We know that less than 5% of social tenants in England move each year in the social housing sector. That is not helpful, given the 250,000 overcrowded households waiting for a suitable property to meet their needs. There is also limited social housing stock, with waiting lists of 5 million people, 250,000 tenants in overcrowded housing and almost 1 million spare bedrooms being paid for through housing benefit. There is a mismatch in the market. I am quite astonished that the hon. Member for Westminster North spent no time talking about that or showing her support for the action that we are taking to put it right.
Sheila Gilmore:
It is important that the Minister establishes whether the Government’s proposal is intended to solve the problems of under-occupancy and over-
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occupancy or simply to save money. Even if the changes that she wants are achieved, there will be no saving in the housing benefit budget, on the assumption that many of the people moving into the houses thereby vacated will also be on housing benefit.
Maria Miller: It is absolutely not fair that we have 1 million spare bedrooms being paid for by housing benefit. It is not right—many taxpayers would never be able to afford a spare bedroom in their properties—nor is it fair for those living in overcrowded or poor housing conditions, waiting for long periods for the opportunity to live in a home that is decent or that actually reflects the size of their family. I would ask the hon. Lady to consider that.
Amendment 32 would provide an exemption from the social sector size criteria measure for disabled people living in adapted accommodation. The intention is to ensure that where people have significant or extensive adaptations, they do not have to move and have a new property adapted, which would result in additional costs. I assure the House that I fully understand those arguments. I agree that it might not make sense to move someone from their home if they have already had significant adaptations. Replicating such changes would impose unnecessary costs. We are not interested in shifting costs from one budget to another. However, as we previously set out, we cannot take the broad-brush approach that amendment 32 would allow for. The amendment talks about a property that is
“specially adapted or particularly suited to…the needs of that person.”
This means that the provision would be drawn very widely drawn indeed, covering any adaptations.
Some adaptations, such as a handrail in a bath, may be so minor that exempting the tenant on the basis of that adaptation alone would simply not be justifiable. The provision would also cover a property that had been adapted for someone’s past needs, and would require local authorities to exempt those whose accommodation was particularly suited to meet their needs—perhaps those in a ground-floor flat or a property with a limited number of stairs to climb. We do not have the data on how many such cases there are, but it seems likely that many would fall into such a broad category. Again, that would prove very expensive—something that the hon. Member for Westminster North seemed to ignore. It is not clear what evidence would be required or who would be responsible for the decision. The amendment refers to the provision of
“certificates, documents, information or evidence”,
which, as the hon. Member for Westminster North said, also suggests a degree of administrative intervention. She made a valid point in Committee, but I am surprised that she is pushing it even further. I think that many stakeholders would rightly be concerned about the potential cost of her proposals and about the additional burdens such bureaucracy could load on to landlords and others.
The National Housing Federation estimates that about 108,000 tenants in adapted accommodation are likely to be affected by the introduction of the size criteria to restrict housing benefit. The NHF has kindly shared its data with us and I understand that our officials have met the federation since Committee and are continuing to explore the data in some detail. However, as well as looking at the available data, we want to talk to housing providers, but that will take some more time.
13 Jun 2011 : Column 603
Funding for adaptations can come from a number of sources, one of which is the disabled facilities grant. Some 44,000 awards were made in 2009-10 in England and the average award was some £7,000. However, many of these are paid to owner-occupiers, not to those living in social rented houses. Research published by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister in 2005 showed that about 70% of all adaptations were for less than £1,000 and that only 19% were wholly funded from the disabled facilities grant. In England, the maximum grant is £30,000, but there are discretionary powers to enable local authorities to meet costs in excess of that. Adaptations of this magnitude would be substantial, potentially involving the construction of a single-storey or double-bedroom extension, together perhaps with the installation of a toilet or en-suite shower. Figures from the same source indicate an average cost of about £2,000 for the installation of a stairlift. We will consider the evidence further, but it is important for the House to look at the facts and realise that many of these adaptations are at a much lower level than the hon. Lady indicated in her comments.
“it is not our intention to put something in place that would have a disproportionate impact on disabled people. If someone has had their property adapted because of their disability, it makes no sense to move them to a different property and spend more money on costly adaptations.”
I concluded that a “blanket exemption” was not the best approach and that we would need to consider
“how we can best target the help at people, while keeping in mind the practical difficulties of identifying…where accommodation has been adapted”.––[Official Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 3 May 2011; c. 687.]
We acknowledge the concerns that have been highlighted, but this amendment goes much further than was suggested even by the sector itself. I hope that, in the light of my comments, hon. Members will look again at the amendments and agree to withdraw them.
Mr Reid: I shall have to be brief. Much of the Bill will be implemented through regulations. Much of the debate has been about London and big cities, but I want to draw the Government’s attention to another part of the country—the highlands and islands of Scotland, where communities live large distances apart. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) referred to community, and if people live on an island, the island is the community, yet it often has limited housing stock.
As a result of this Bill—either because of the 30th percentile provision or because they are under-occupying—some people might have to move house. When the regulations are being drawn up, I urge the Government to take the sparsely populated parts of the country into account. If people are going to have to move, they should be able to do so within their community. If they live in mainland villages, the next village might be 10 or 20 miles up the road; if they live on an island, the community is the island.
The regulations are to be subject to a negative resolution, but I urge the Government to use the affirmative resolution so that they can be properly scrutinised here. I urge the Government please to take into account the needs of the sparsely populated parts of the country as well as the cities.
13 Jun 2011 : Column 604
10 pm
Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day).
The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair ( Standing Order No. 83E), That the amendment be made.
Amendment proposed: 27, page 103, line 1, after ‘income,’, insert—
(ba) a person’s earned income from self-employment,’.—(Stephen Timms.)
The House divided:
Ayes 213, Noes 304.
[10.1 pm
AYES
Abrahams, Debbie
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jon
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobson, rh Frank
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr Jim
Hosie, Stewart
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân .
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Leslie, Chris
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McCrea, Dr William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Nandy, Lisa
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, Angus
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Lindsay
Ruddock, rh Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shuker, Gavin
Simpson, David
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Lyn Brown and
Graham Jones
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, rh Greg
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Mrs Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, Mike
Percy, Andrew
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rogerson, Dan
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr Philip Dunne and
Mark Hunter
Question accordingly negatived.
13 Jun 2011 : Column 605
13 Jun 2011 : Column 606
13 Jun 2011 : Column 607
13 Jun 2011 : Column 608
The Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83E).
Amendments made: 14, page 20, line 6, at end insert—
‘( ) A statutory instrument containing the first regulations made by the Secretary of State under any of the following, alone or with other regulations, is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure—
(a) section 5(1)(a) and (2)(a) (capital limits);
(b) section 8(3) (income to be deducted in award calculation);
(c) section 9(2) (amount to be included in award calculation for standard allowance element);
(d) section 10(3) (amount to be included in award calculation for children and young persons element);
(e) section 11 (housing costs element);
(f) section 12 (other needs and circumstances element);
(g) section 19(2)(d) (claimants subject to no work-related requirements);
(h) sections 26 and 27 (sanctions);
(i) section 28 (hardship payments);
(j) paragraph 4 of Schedule1 (calculation of capital and income);
(k) paragraph 1(1) of Schedule6 (migration), where making provision under paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of that Schedule.’
Amendment 15, page 20, line 9, leave out ‘under this Part’—(Chris Grayling.)
Amendment made: 16, page 27, line 22, at end insert—
‘(1A) In section 37 of that Act (parliamentary control), in subsection (1), before paragraph (b) there is inserted—
“(ab) the first regulations to be made under sections 19 to 19C;”.’—(Chris Grayling.)
Amendment made: 17, page 35, line 13, at end insert—
‘( ) In section 37 (parliamentary control), in subsection (1), after paragraph (a) there is inserted—
“(aa) the first regulations to be made under section 6J or 6K;”.’—(Chris Grayling.)
Amendment made: 18, page 44, line 48, at end insert—
13 Jun 2011 : Column 609
‘( ) In section 26 (parliamentary control), in subsection (1), after paragraph (a) there is inserted—
“(aa) the first regulations under section 11D(2)(d) or 11J,”.’—(Chris Grayling.)
Bill to be further considered tomorrow .
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Social Security (Electronic Communications) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 14 March, be approved.—(Miss Chloe Smith.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Taxation of Equitable Life (Payments) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 21 March, be approved.—(Miss Chloe Smith.)
Petition
Financial Services Compensation Scheme
10.15 pm
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): I beg leave to present to the House a petition signed by Mr Peter Williams, Mr Paul Wiggins and Mr Jason Evans, all of whom are constituents of mine, together with some 6,761 other signatories from throughout the United Kingdom, gathered by the British Insurance Brokers’ Association. They are concerned at the impact of the decision of the Financial Services Authority indefinitely to delay its planned review of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. The petition states:
The Petition of members of the British Insurance Brokers’ Association (BIBA),
Declares that the petitioners believe that the Financial Services Authority (FSA) should urgently accelerate its consultation on the fundamental review of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS), to ensure that new rules are in place for April 2012 so that general insurance brokers do not see further disproportionate levy increases; and further declares that the 3,500 full time ‘insurance brokers’ should have separation from the other ‘secondary sellers’ in the insurance intermediary sub-class.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges HM Treasury to accelerate the FSA’s review of the FSCS consultation with immediate effect.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
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Workplace Drug Testing
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.)
10.17 pm
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I am pleased to have the opportunity to address the House on workplace drug testing. As the emphasis on health and safety in the workplace is heightening, the incidence of drug and alcohol testing in the workplace is increasing, too. Such testing is welcomed and supported by both employers and employees, for very good reasons, as it is in everyone’s interest that the workplace is a safe environment.
Trade unions recognise that any one employee working unsafely poses a risk to other employees and they have been happy and willing to agree drug and alcohol policies with their employers. That means that workplace drug and alcohol testing is becoming increasingly prevalent, which is great from a health and safety point of view and, through deterrence alone, could be anticipated to lead to fewer industrial accidents. I have concerns, however, from a human rights perspective. These tests can act as judge and jury and, as a consequence, we need to ensure that the regulatory regime governing such tests and practices is adequate and that both employers and employees understand their rights and responsibilities with regard to such tests, so that employees are not treated unfairly.
I want to illustrate the issues with reference to my constituent, Mr Joe Kelly, who faced dismissal from his post following 31 years of employment with the same employer after he received a positive test for heroin. My constituent knew that the test was erroneous and mounted a successful challenge that saw him reinstated. As he says, however, he was prepared to take the risk and engage legal representation, but many other employees facing similar circumstances might not have that luxury. It is to protect the rights of employees that I am bringing these issues to the attention of the House.
I want to highlight to the Minister the key areas that I think pose a risk and to ask for his reflections on what the Government can do to strengthen understanding on the part of employers and employees through their trade unions. I am not sure this matter necessarily needs more regulation, but in drawing up an appropriate drug and alcohol policy, the employer and the trade union will need to satisfy themselves that they and their contractors have appropriate processes to deal with collecting and testing samples.
There are essentially three areas of risk that we need to get right. The first is the integrity of the collection process. This is the fundamental aspect that should be tightened. There must be a clear and documented chain of custody, so that samples are correctly identified and handled to prevent them from being mixed up, contaminated or tampered with. Without a chain of custody, there is no proof that the sample belongs to the subject.
In the case of Mr Kelly, the chain of custody could not be proved and the collection process was poor. He had been more than happy to comply with the demands for a random drug test, but in supplying his sample, he was very unhappy with the procedure. The process was not explained, consents were not properly sought, his samples were not sealed in his presence, and he had
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concerns about the cleanliness of the process. Overall, he felt that the collectors were more concerned with speed than with accuracy and that there was serious risk of cross-contamination.
In this case the sample was saliva and, as is customary, two samples were collected so that in the event of a challenge, a repeat test could be run. Given that the samples were not sealed in the presence of my constituent, he could not be satisfied that the sample which had tested positive belonged to him, nor could he sure that the B sample belonged to him. In the event the B sample did clear Mr Kelly, but given his understandable lack of confidence in the process, he took his own measures and paid to have a hair test, which again cleared him.
Firms engaged in testing sign up to standards overseen by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service. In this example, the firm was signed up to UKAS standards only for the lab. I venture to suggest that employers should engage only with firms that are signed up to appropriate standards throughout the collection and testing processes.
The second area of risk is the testing process. In Mr Kelly’s case the sample tested which read positive for heroin was very small. The testing company’s own methodology stated that an insufficient sample would represent a failure in the chain of custody, but testing took place in any case. It is also suggested that the testing instrument was not properly calibrated to analyse such a small sample. Moreover, a multiplier was applied to the reading, which meant that the results were not reliable. In the absence of the multiplier, the test was in fact negative.
So when Mr Kelly obtained the lab report, it illustrated that the company had not complied with its own standards. I am very surprised that the company delivering the testing service met UKAS standards, in view of these deficiencies. That is why employers and their trade unions may not wish to leave it just to UKAS to establish quality and integrity of processes. I advise that they take steps to satisfy themselves that processes are sufficiently robust.
Finally, the human resources policies of the employer should be appropriate. Joe Kelly was confident that he was innocent, but his employer was adamant that the test was cast-iron evidence of guilt. I have no doubt that the employer acted in good faith, but alarm bells should have sounded. This was a 59-year-old man in a management position, with 31 years service. The test indicated serious heroin abuse over a prolonged period. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to appreciate that if this man had been a regular heroin abuser, it would not have taken a random drug test to highlight the fact. Physical and behavioural symptoms would have highlighted abuse. There needs to be some sensitivity on the part of employers about how positive tests are handled, with an appropriate appeal process if the employee or his line management feels that the test is not accurate.
Employers should be sensitive to the impact on people’s reputations. That this episode happened to my constituent at the end of a long career as a respected member of staff has left a bitter taste. I am sure no employer would want to accuse long-serving members of staff unfairly and, if alerted to the risks, that they would wish to take steps to ensure that their processes were sufficiently robust. I suggest, therefore, that in the event of a contested sample, the employer must be satisfied that
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they can make available the chain of custody records to validate drug tests, the lab report for the screening test, the full report of the medical officer and a method statement for sample collection. If any of these is unsatisfactory, the test should be deemed invalid. In this case the lab failed to provide chain of custody documentation, failed to calibrate the instrument effectively, and failed to explain the lack of volume in the sample or justify the use of a multiplier. If the company doing the testing understood that it would have to supply this information to employers as a matter of routine in the event of a contested claim, I venture to suggest that this would act as a discipline to ensure that appropriate standards are maintained.
Ultimately, this case has been a learning experience for the employer and the union. They will happily concede that it took this unhappy incident for them to understand the risks that they were asking their employees to take with this policy. They have strengthened their procedures accordingly. However, the lessons of this case need to be understood more widely so that employers and unions do not sign up to procedures that are deficient. Otherwise, we may find other employees dismissed on the basis of samples that are not theirs or because they have been improperly tested. Such an event would also blight the employee’s employment prospects, and in the interests of natural justice, we as law-makers should satisfy ourselves that we have done what we can to defend the rights of employees.
Does the Minister consider that there should be more guidance in this area, particularly given that drug and alcohol testing is becoming increasingly common? I do not believe that we need more regulation, but we need more understanding of the risks and more dissemination of best practice. Therefore, what might the Government do to highlight best practice and foster dialogue with employers and trade unions to heighten awareness so that the rights of employees are protected?
10.25 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) for raising the matter and for the way she has done so. I hope that I will be able to give her some satisfaction on the points she wants the Government to address. Before doing so, it is important that I state for the record the legislative background to drug testing in the workplace.
Employers have a general duty under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 to ensure, as far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of their employees. They also have a duty under the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 to assess risks to the health and safety of their employees. If they knowingly allow an employee under the influence of drugs to continue working and his or her behaviour places themselves or others at risk, the employers could be prosecuted. Their employees are also required to take reasonable care of themselves and others who could be affected by what they do at work.
The Transport and Works Act 1992 made it a criminal offence for certain workers to be unfit through drugs and/or drink while working on railways, tramways and other guided transport systems. The operators of those transport systems would also be guilty of an offence
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unless they had shown all due diligence in trying to prevent such an offence from being committed. The Road Traffic Act 1988 states that any person who, when driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, is unfit to drive through drink or drugs shall be guilty of an offence. The principal legislation for controlling the misuse of drugs is, of course, the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Nearly all drugs with misuse and/or dependence liability are covered by it.
Therefore, there is a legislative framework that makes it clear that employers have a duty to ensure that they look after the health and safety of their workers. There are several codes of practice to assist employers in this, most notably a free booklet published by the Health and Safety Executive, “Drug Misuse at Work”, which mentions a number of related matters, including drug screening, which is what concerns my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend will know that I cannot comment on the individual case, but the main thrust of her speech related to how drug testing is carried out. My Department is responsible for the sole Government-recognised UK national accreditation body, the United Kingdom Accreditation Service. UKAS operates accreditation as a public authority activity, as required by European legislation. It has a strong international reputation for the quality and rigour of its accreditation assessments and is itself regularly assessed by its peers.
UKAS accredits laboratories when required to do so by legislation or when voluntarily requested to do so by
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a laboratory. Accreditation is an assessment and attestation that a laboratory is competent to undertake specified conformity assessments. International standards exist to cover the collection of samples, and UKAS is happy to accredit against those standards. My Department works closely with UKAS and has full confidence in its work.
My hon. Friend raised the specific case of her constituent, as well as making a wider point. I am happy to ask UKAS to work alongside the Health and Safety Executive to improve the HSE’s guidance on drug misuse at work and to expand the guidance coverage to include the complete drugs testing life cycle from the collection of a sample to its testing. I think that that was the point that she was seeking to make, particularly when she talked about the integrity of the collection process and the chain of custody. I hope that my officials will talk to UKAS and the HSE to ensure that the guidance can be improved in the way she mentioned. I agree that this is not an area in which new regulation is needed. Having listened to the case of my hon. Friend’s constituent, I believe that we can deal with the concerns, which she rightly raised, through Government guidance. I hope that she will be satisfied with this response, but if, on reflection, she has any further questions, I would be very happy to deal with them personally if she writes to me.