They were all excellent speeches, but I will mention three or four in particular. The hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) spoke about the need for litigation in some cases, despite what the Lord Chancellor says. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) spoke from experience about the effects that the cuts will have on citizens advice bureaux and advice services. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) spoke about the need for sentencing reform and—I hope that I am not putting words in his mouth—the reasons why this Bill will not deliver it. Notwithstanding his tone, the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) made a fine
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1058
speech. Those and many other speeches came from knowledge and experience of the criminal and civil justice system over many years. Therefore, whatever side of the House they came from, I hope that the Government will heed them.
The Bill was supposed to launch a rehabilitation revolution. Then the spin doctors decided that it would be the Bill to punish offenders, but it is neither. It is a damaging and unfunded mess. It will not protect the public, reduce crime, support victims or reform offenders, but do the opposite. It will place victims at risk, cut access to justice for all but the wealthiest and take away even basic legal advice and representation from the most vulnerable in society.
Legal aid, no win, no fee litigation, remand pending trial, access to legal advice on arrest, and a system that diverts young people from offending are coherent parts of a coherent justice system that is envied around the world. The Government put that at risk through the Bill. A dizzying series of U-turns on sentencing and swingeing cuts to police, probation and youth offending teams have created a shambles that will not keep us safe in the short term or lower prison numbers in the long term. We have already had the first warning. Yesterday’s figures show that, under this Government, crime in London is increasing, not decreasing, for the first time in years.
Access to legal aid for the poorest and most vulnerable people will now be the exception, not the rule. Cutting legal aid for housing, education, welfare benefits, debt and family cases will be an economic as well as a social disaster. That is the view of 5,000 individuals and organisations, many with decades of experience, expressed in their responses to the Government’s consultation. Citizens Advice, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Shelter, the Law Centres Federation, the Children’s Society and End Violence Against Women, to name but a few, explained why legal help and representation is good value for money. It is provided by lawyers who earn, on average, less than £25,000, citizens advice bureaux staff and volunteers, supplemented with pro bono advice. They explained why helping people at an early stage prevents homelessness, debt, family breakdown and crime, which end up costing society and the Treasury far more in the long run. They also explained—it should not be necessary to do so, but it is for this Government—the moral duty of a civilised society to support those most in need in the times of greatest stress.
The Government’s impact assessments confirm that women, children, disabled people and minority groups will suffer disproportionately from the cuts, to which the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who is responsible for legal aid, responds, “What do you expect? They’re the ones getting legal aid now.” The Under-Secretary sounds increasingly like Marie Antoinette. I will do what the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington asked and cite Lord Carlile. Last week, at a meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on legal aid, Lord Carlile put a compelling case to the Under-Secretary. He asked:
“What would the Minister tell the mother of a child with catastrophic injuries caused by clinical negligence who could no longer get legal aid?”
“I don’t know. She’d better ask a lawyer.”
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1059
Despite the Lord Chancellor’s protestations, the Government have not listened to the women’s institute or Amnesty on domestic violence. They have not listened to people such as Jeannie Bloomfield, president of the women’s institute in Suffolk, who survived domestic violence years ago and has become an advocate for those who suffer it today. She wrote to me, fearful for the future. She said that, under the Government’s definition of domestic violence, she would not have received the legal aid that allowed her and her daughters to escape abuse. Under the plans, the Government will abandon many women like Jeannie.
Let us also consider the Government’s meddling with civil litigation.
Stephen Phillips: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for his remarks about my speech. He will remember that I made the point that we had heard nothing from the Opposition about what they would do, given that the shadow Lord Chancellor again accepted in his speech that cuts had to be made to legal aid. The hon. Gentleman told me to read Hansard. I have done that and I am none the wiser. The information is not there. I wonder whether he would like to apologise to me and the House for inadvertently misleading it. What cuts would the Opposition make if they were in government?
Mr Slaughter: I am delighted to respond to that. I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman had slightly more perception. He should look at the Green Paper that was published on 22 March 2010, entitled “Restructuring the Delivery of Criminal Defence Services”. That is the document to which my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor and I referred. How many more times do we have to explain it to the hon. and learned Gentleman?[Interruption.] The Lord Chancellor, who has only opened the Bill for the first time today, could perhaps go and look at the document himself.
Turning to the Government’s meddling with civil litigation, they justify the need to upend no win, no fee by reference to the compensation culture, but their own investigation, led by Lord Young of Graffham, found:
“The problem of the compensation culture prevalent in society today is one of perception rather than reality.”
The Government are legislating to fit false perceptions. A system that allows people on moderate incomes to access justice is being overturned to please the insurance industry and large corporations.
While the justification for reform may be imagined, the victims are all too real: children brain-damaged by medical negligence, workers injured by unsafe machinery or suffering industrial disease and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said, hundreds of thousands of overseas victims of multinational companies in cases like Trafigura.
Again, public money will be wasted. The Revenue has objected that insolvency cases in which it is a major creditor will not come to court in the future. The NHS and the Department for Work and Pensions will have to pick up the tab for individuals who cannot get compensation from those that harmed them. There is a need to control costs of civil cases; all parties agree on that. We were already doing that by controlling costs in road traffic
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1060
claims, which are 75% of all personal injury claims. Costs could be further controlled by capping success fees and encouraging early settlement by both parties, but the Government prefer to put all the onus on claimants and force them to pay up to 25% of the damages that they have been justly awarded. A Supreme Court judge, Baroness Hale, warned this week that we risk returning to an England where justice is denied to all but the rich.
Finally, we come to sentencing. What a mess. What an extraordinary debacle—the product of a Government who just don’t get it on law and order. The coalition agreement promised a full review of sentencing. This is the opposite: a mixture of U-turns, delays, false promises and sleights of hand. Some things that were in the Bill are now out, like 50% discounts. Some, such as indeterminate sentences, have gone off for even more consultation. Some, such as the new knives offence, have been added with the ink hardly dry. Some may be added later, on burglary and squatting. Many of the tough measures announced by the Prime Minister are not in the Bill, but lots of the so-called “soft” measures are. Courts will be allowed to take no action for breach of a community order or impose a fine for breach of a suspended prison sentence. Magistrates’ power to impose sentences of up to 12 months will be repealed rather than implemented. Judges and magistrates will have their hands tied on remand. To limit the use of remand as the Government have done is fundamentally to misunderstand its purpose. Judges, magistrates and victims’ representatives all oppose that measure. It is an extraordinary step for any Government to take. It undermines law and order and the discretion of the judiciary, and it is solely here—as was the sentencing discount—to save money.
Under Labour Governments, crime fell 43% over 13 years. Youth offending fell 34% over the last Parliament alone. That was the product of investment in youth offending teams—which this year will see an average cut of 18% in their budgets—and of a long-term strategy to reduce criminal behaviour. The legacy that we left has been squandered by a Department that is in chaos—a Department of chaos. Cuts of 23% will be achieved by restricting access to justice for the vulnerable, taking money from injured parties, and meddling with sentencing to reduce prison places.
The faults are clear in the process of the Bill—rushed out on the same day as the responses to consultation, rushed to Second Reading in one week and now being rushed into Committee, but with new provisions promised for the autumn and a raft of key measures left for secondary legislation. It is a lazy Bill. It lacks integrity. The Secretary of State should feel embarrassed to present it to the House for Second Reading tonight. I urge all right hon. and hon. Members on all sides to vote against.
6.44 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly):
We have listened to many considered and knowledgeable speeches today. The breadth of debate has only confirmed the importance of the issues before the House. The Bill contains provisions that would make a significant contribution to our reform of the justice system, and those reforms will deliver justice effectively and affordably, provide value for money
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1061
for the taxpayer, protect the public from serious and violent offenders and tackle the over-reliance on courts and lawyers.
The Bill will also make an important contribution to the Ministry’s deficit reduction commitment, worth £2 billion by 2014-15. I can confirm that we have engaged widely on the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) recognised. Most of the Bill’s proposals have been subject to three major consultations published last year, and they have been widely debated in the House—indeed, we have had no fewer than nine debates on our justice reforms since December last year. There have been hundreds of oral and written parliamentary questions and legal aid has been the subject of one Justice Committee inquiry and one report. I am looking forward to the Public Bill Committee, where we will continue these debates.
Many important issues have been raised and I shall refer to a number of them. The point about getting a balance between sentencing and punishment was made by my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) and for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). In that context, I note that the length of sentence is important, but what happens within the sentence is just as important for punishment and rehabilitation.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) noted, for too long prisoners have spent their time in prison lying around and doing nothing. We want to make criminals work hard, an issue discussed very well by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire. Prisoners, some of whom hardly know the meaning of work, will face the tough discipline of a regular working week of up to 40 hours. As we refocus prison regimes around work, we will create more opportunities to make prisoners pay back to their victims. The Bill includes a new power to take a portion of money earned by offenders to help victims. Offenders serving community sentences will work longer and harder on unpaid work.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) spoke strongly in favour of rehabilitation. Her points about private prisons were well taken, although the savings involved will depend on the prisons concerned. To answer the point made by the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) about knives, the Bill will send a clear message that those who possess a knife to threaten and endanger can expect to face a minimum prison sentence. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate spoke strongly about that; I agree that we must check its interaction with other offences. That point was also made in a different way by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). I note, however, that this is not an all-embracing review of knife crime; it is filling a gap in existing legislation. We will be looking at the practical issues mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell).
Indeterminate sentences were a contentious issue for a number of Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley and the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman). Others, such as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, supported the proposals.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1062
We will review indeterminate sentences with a view to replacing them with a clear, tough, predictable system of long, determinate sentences—the best way to punish criminals for their crimes and reform them so that, on release, they are no longer a danger to the public. We will complete the review by the autumn and bring forward our proposals for reform.
The right hon. Member for Tooting said that Labour would limit the use of indeterminate public protection sentences, but in reality by the time Labour had left power, those had gone out of control, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) explained in his excellent contribution. The Bill will also change the law to allow courts to hand down tougher punishments when prison is not an option. As part of community sentences, courts will be able to impose tougher curfews for longer periods, detaining offenders in their own homes with electronic tags to help enforce those curfews.
I am pleased to confirm to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley that we are not introducing a new requirement on courts directing that the periods that offenders spend tagged on bail should count towards a subsequent prison sentence. As part of the community sentence, courts will also be able to ban offenders from going abroad. We strongly support help for victims, and I tell the hon. Member for Darlington that we will change the law to encourage courts to make more offenders pay compensation directly to their victims.
My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate spoke up on the important need to support victims, as did the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), who also used his speech to promote the Youth Justice Board. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) spoke up for child victims very strongly.
Fines will not be a soft option. We are launching two schemes, in Norfolk and Cheshire, to seize prized possessions such as cars, TVs and other valuable items from criminals who ignore their fines.
My hon. Friends the Members for Enfield, Southgate and for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury spoke on means-testing for advice given at police stations. I am pleased to be able to confirm that we do not intend to stop paying for police station advice.
On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley about suspended sentences, a number of judges have asked if the custodial sentence that is suspendable could be increased from 12 months to two years. That would add to judges’ discretion, but it is not a requirement to suspend in cases of offences that could attract two-year sentences.
I can confirm to my hon. Friends the Members for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for Battersea (Jane Ellison) that we intend to get more offenders off drugs for good by using drug recovery wings and by cracking down on the use of illicit drugs in prison. Many hon. Members made strong points about that. We also want to create a more transparent sentencing framework, which was elaborated on very well by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips).
Turning to our reforms of legal aid, I would like to thank hon. Members for their contributions.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1063
Mr Straw: Before the Minister turns to legal aid, will he deal with the central proposal in respect of sentencing, which is to restrict the ability of the courts to remand defendants in custody in advance of trial? He skated lightly over that, saying absolutely nothing. Will he confirm what it says on page 166 of the Bill, which is that even where a defendant fails to surrender to bail, that defendant cannot be remanded in custody unless there is a “real prospect” of a custodial sentence? Is that what is intended?
Mr Djanogly: I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman. My understanding is that he is wrong on the issue.
Turning to legal aid, I thank hon. Members who have contributed today and those who have responded to the consultation, along with some 5,000 other people. The Bill sets out those elements of the reform that will require primary legislation. We received a number of detailed alternative proposals from respondents to our consultation, including the Law Society.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is not making a speech or addressing the House; he is reading something into the record.
Mr Speaker: That is a point not of order but of frustration.
Mr Djanogly: We carefully considered those points in our consultation response, but we are clear that the proposals put forward by respondents do not, overall, represent a realistic alternative to our programme of reform. We can all agree on the need for greater efficiency. That point was made strongly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), and we already plan to deliver £1 billion of the Ministry’s savings through efficiencies. The Justice for All campaign also asked us to improve alternatives to legal processes instead of cutting legal help. The Government seized the point, which is why we are increasing the funding available for mediation by £10 million. Some 50% of the proposals suggested by the Law Society amounted to new taxation, but legal aid is primarily funded out of general taxation, and the Government are seeking to reduce the amount of public spending overall. The deficit is also shared across government, and suggestions of cost shifting will not address the overall financial position.
As the Lord Chancellor said earlier, we have the most expensive legal aid system in the world, except for Northern Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington said, the Opposition have been quick to criticise but they have offered no viable alternative. They profess to want to cut legal aid without saying what they would do. They propose to spend £65 million more on social welfare. Does the right hon. Member for Tooting mean to say that he would cut criminal legal aid? If so, by how much would he cut it? By the way, we have looked into the proposals of 20 March 2010, and they were on criminal competitive tendering, so where will the right hon. Gentleman get his savings? This is an unsustainable level of expenditure. In some cases the system encourages people to bring issues before courts where other solutions might be better. In others, it enables people to pursue litigation that they would not contemplate were they paying for it from their own pockets.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1064
I firmly believe that the range of cases identified for inclusion within the scope of civil legal aid reflects the desire—
Mr Speaker: Order. There is quite a lot of chuntering in the Chamber. I am sure that the Minister will want to speak up a bit so that everyone can hear him
Mr Djanogly: We must make tough choices and target scarce legal aid on those who need it most. I am sorry to tell the hon. Members for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the right hon. Member for Manchester Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) that legal aid has never been available for all cases and that we simply need to prioritise our spending. The hon. Member for Sunderland Central said that everyone deserves their day in court. That might be so, but mediation can sometimes be more appropriate.
The Bill’s reforms are not limited to public funding but extend to provisions to implement a fundamental reform of privately funded no win, no fee conditional fee agreements. The changes we propose will rebalance the CFA regime.
The right hon. Member for Tooting, incredibly, refused to say whether he supports our attack on the compensation culture. Under current arrangements, claimants can bring cases without any financial risk. Risk-free litigation encourages unnecessary or avoidable claims to be pursued and puts businesses and other defendants under pressure of excessive legal costs. Under our changes, claimants using CFAs will have to think carefully about whether it is necessary to pursue their claim. I confirm to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) that CFAs will still be available for group actions against multinational companies.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed rightly mentioned fixed costs and referral fees, which we need to look at. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) mentioned the disgraceful episode involving referral fees in relation to miners’ compensation. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) felt strongly about referral fees and made a number of valid suggestions that are outwith the direct scope of the Bill but do, I agree, need to be looked at.
We are aware of the strong concern that the payment of referral fees in personal injury cases adds to the costs of civil litigation. We are considering the issue and will announce the way forward in due course. I point out, however, that in 1999 claimant costs represented 50% of damages but that by 2010 the figure had risen to 150%. The previous Government lost control of the situation. Under the relevant provisions in the Bill, the legal costs of all defendants facing CFA-funded claims will reduce. That said, we recognise that there are complex and difficult cases, such as clinical negligence cases, which the Chairman of the Justice Committee, my hon. Friends the Members for Dewsbury and for Mid Bedfordshire and the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) raised. Our Jackson and legal aid reforms will address such cases. CFAs are a viable alternative to legal aid for these cases and the Bill will, exceptionally, enable the recovery of after-the-event insurance premiums for expert reports in clinical negligence cases, in recognition of the fact that they are important.
Bridget Phillipson:
Will the Minister answer the question I asked the Lord Chancellor earlier about whether the Government will rethink their proposals to scrap legal
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1065
aid for women applying for indefinite leave to remain under the domestic violence rule? It is a very small number of women.
Mr Djanogly: It is a small number but it is a complicated point, so I shall write to the hon. Lady.
Taken together, this is a balanced and sensible package of reforms of the kind that the Government were determined to achieve when we published our proposals. The overall effect will be to achieve significant savings while protecting fundamental rights of access to justice.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The House divided:
Ayes 295, Noes 212.
[6.59 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Glyn
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kelly, Chris
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Mrs Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr Shailesh Vara and
Jeremy Wright
NOES
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Ashworth, Jon
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davies, Philip
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drax, Richard
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Havard, Mr Dai
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Phil Wilson and
Mark Hendrick
Question accordingly agreed to.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1066
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1067
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1068
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1069
Legal Aid, Sentencing and punishment of Offenders bill (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill:
Committal
1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 13 October 2011.
3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Consideration and Third Reading
4. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mr Dunne.)
The House divided:
Ayes 289, Noes 205.
[7.14 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Glyn
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kelly, Chris
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr Shailesh Vara and
Mark Hunter
NOES
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Ashworth, Jon
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davies, Philip
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drax, Richard
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Havard, Mr Dai
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Michael, rh Alun
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Jonathan
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watts, Mr Dave
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Lyn Brown and
Mark Hendrick
Question accordingly agreed to.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1070
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1071
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1072
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1073
Legal Aid, Sentencing and punishment of offenders Bill (Ways and Means)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
(1) the imposition of charges by virtue of the Act in connection with motor vehicle orders,
(2) the making of deductions from, or the imposition of levies on, payments to prisoners and persons required to be detained in young offender institutions, and
(3) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.— (Mr Dunne.)
Legal Aid, Sentencing and punishment of offenders bill (Money)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, it is expedient to authorise—
(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown by virtue of the Act, and
(2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Mr Dunne.)
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, it will be convenient to take motions 6 to 8 and 10 and 11 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 5 April, be approved.
That the draft Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1074
That the draft Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Insolvency Act 1986 (Disqualification from Parliament) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 3 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Pensions Act 2008 (Abolition of Protected Rights) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.
That the draft Pensions Act 2007 (Abolition of Contracting-out for Defined Contribution Pension Schemes) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.)
Petition
Khalsa Academy (Slough)
7.28 pm
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I have the honour to present, on behalf of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community in Slough and south Buckinghamshire, a petition in support of Khalsa secondary school in Slough. This afternoon, together with officers of the trust, I presented a petition in similar terms, with 1,500 signatures, to the office of the Prime Minister. I am trying to speak slowly so that the Secretary of State for Education will hear me, because the promoters of the petition tell me that he gave a pledge that he would help them to ensure the building of the school, if it was the only site they could find. That is indeed the case, and that is what the petition deals with.
The Humble Petition of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community within Slough and South Buckinghamshire.
Sheweth that the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open a new Sikh Secondary Faith School, Khalsa Academy, in September 2012, was submitted in June 2011; that the Academy is to be sited next to the existing successful Sikh primary school; and that the trustees have, over the past year, exhausted all other feasible site options in the Slough area.
I must say that I know that, because I have been helping them. The petition continues:
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House urges the Government to approve the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open the Khalsa Academy in September 2012; and to support their endeavours to build the school on land near the existing Sikh Primary School.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray &c.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1075
Home Ownership (Armed Forces)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.)
7.30 pm
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): I welcome the opportunity to bring this important matter to the Floor of the House. It is a vital matter for serving armed forces personnel, and I speak today as someone who wants to make some constructive suggestions to the Minister in order to improve the uptake of mortgages. I do not think that that will mean new financial commitments from or undertakings by the Government, but I hope that it will deliver meaningful savings, if implemented well. I am particularly grateful for the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and the hon. Members for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) and for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), who will contribute later.
Before I focus on access to mortgages, I pay tribute to Heropreneurs, a new charity founded by Richard Morris with the relatively simple aim of providing those who leave the armed forces with an entire business package, including start-up capital via a debt-for-equity model, pro bono legal and financial advice, a dedicated mentor, access to second-stage funding and a support network of people who have already made that journey from military to civilian life.
One beneficiary of Heropreneurs is Nick Cowan, a former colour sergeant with 23 years’ service in the Royal Green Jackets, who has set up a not-for-profit company called Mortgage for Life, which enables those in the armed forces to buy accommodation at significantly reduced cost via special deals that it sets up with developers, banks and building societies. Mr Cowan has met various hon. Members, including the Minister for the Armed Forces and the leadership of the Council of Mortgage Lenders.
In discussions with Heropreneurs and Nick Cowan, however, it has become clear that there are specific issues with enabling service personnel to get on the housing ladder prior to their exit point, so I want to focus on that and on how the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Communities and Local Government can enable more serving armed forces personnel to overcome the particular inhibitors of their employment status in order to access the housing market in the same way as their civilian peers.
Despite the investment of Governments before and after the general election, the National Audit Office has found that the MOD did not have sufficient accommodation overall to meet current demand; that, if it did, the properties were in the wrong location; and that many did not match the need among those families in the right places. The NAO estimates that it will take two decades to sort that out, so the MOD is spending £38 million on maintaining vacant properties and paying out £16 million annually on private rented accommodation.
One way to resolve those issues and high costs is to make home ownership a more accessible alternative option. It is potentially a cost-saving alternative to private rentals, and the MOD is responding. Giving the military covenant statutory force means that we have some confidence in the seriousness with which it takes a
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1076
range of issues, and the Minister for Housing and Local Government, who is in his place, has also made encouraging announcements in the past week.
Housing agents will be dispatched to barracks throughout the country and abroad to help troops apply to buy a home under the £500 million Firstbuy scheme, which aims to help more than 10,000 households purchase a new build home over the next two years. There are some questions about that, however. Who are the agents? Will they be paid? Will they be on commission? How often will they visit personnel? And, what qualifications do they have?
The first indications from those who have been observing this matter are that, in the Firstbuy paperwork, priority for housing will be given to existing social tenants and MOD personnel, so service personnel will not receive quite the priority that was suggested in the announcement by the Minister a week ago. Though that was welcome, it is still the case that there is very little social housing in this country and most property is owned by housing associations. If we want to tackle this problem in its entirety, we have to unlock the issue of housing associations having the autonomy to decide what to do with properties. The challenge is to make them open up the categories of person to whom they let property. An ongoing concern is that service personnel no longer receive a discount towards purchasing their social housing or housing association property. In the past, time served in service families accommodation would count towards the discount when buying their council house. The removal of that rule offers some challenges.
The challenges remain significant. As a member of the Select Committee on Defence, I am clear that thousands of personnel will leave the services in the next six months and, while specific initiatives will assist in the short term, we need to do more to change the lending culture towards the armed forces. The Council of Mortgage Lenders has confirmed that the industry supports measures to help overcome barriers to home ownership for military personnel. The mortgage application process will be refined and lenders will accept the principle that serving men and women should not be disadvantaged, but the details are important. It is critical that this is put right.
I understand that we will shortly get to the point where lenders’ systems do not reject applications because they come from British Forces Post Office addresses, so we should be in a situation where prospective lenders take applications from military staff out of their automated response processes, where appropriate. It is astonishing that there are these barriers to service personnel that mean that they cannot get beyond the application stage.
I understand that that industry is producing top tips for prospective borrowers from the services to assist them with key elements of the mortgage application process, and that is welcome. However, it is critical that the Minister ensures that this recently announced initiative is embedded in the mindset of the MOD. We cannot have the MOD saying, “Well, we’ve been doing it this way for some time and we don’t need your assistance, thank you.” We need a cross-departmental approach to ensure that the best outcomes are secured for these people who do so much for their country. There are real barriers that materially disadvantage service or ex-service personnel in securing a mortgage—in short, they cannot get credit-scored simply because of their profession.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1077
I shall set out some of the key issues for consideration. Heropreneurs and Nick Cowan have written a mortgage manifesto, which addresseses how staff in retail branch networks handle mortgage applications and how they should have clear and consistent guidelines on how to treat certain savings products. Armed forces personnel should have access to the best possible discounts and fixed and tracker products, in line with those that civilian members of the public can access. Lenders should no longer be able to charge serving armed forces personnel more for life assurance premiums in relation to policies that are required to support a successful mortgage application than they do civilians of the same age. The Council of Mortgage Lenders, the British Bankers Association and their respective members should have a dedicated armed forces and veterans page on their retailing banking websites to give specific financial advice to those clients.
Strong consideration needs to be given to providing better-quality advice within the armed services themselves. It is critical that, embedded within training at different stages, serving personnel can get advice and access to independent financial advisers. I am not saying that the Minister or the MOD should become IFAs, but they should facilitate wise advice. If investment decisions are made when people are in their 20s they tend to determine how people will fare in their 40s and 50s, and they will have an impact on the generation that comes after them.
All serving armed forces personnel should have the opportunity on at least an annual basis to receive specialist advice. The issues relating to the use of long service advance of pay should be simplified as a matter of urgency, so that there is a clear presumption in favour of the money being used to put down a deposit or pay for the legal fees associated with a mortgage application. At the moment, that seems very difficult to deal with. The resistance to allowing people to secure a buy-to-let property also inhibits take-up.
Let me finish by acknowledging that the Minister has taken a lead in addressing some of the issues. I am here to urge him to go further, to work with his MOD colleagues and all Ministers across Government to ensure that our armed services personnel get the best that they deserve. The core concerns underlying this debate are beginning to be addressed. The matter has such serious implications for the financial well-being of our servicemen that we need to look broadly and deeply into this issue and at every aspect of it to ensure that we achieve what rhetoric and headlines would have us believe will be the outcome.
7.41 pm
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on picking up the baton on this issue. Like me, he met Richard Morris from Heropreneurs a couple of weeks ago. I first knew Richard when he was involved in the Bright Ideas Trust and he is an extraordinary character who puts an amazing amount of energy into helping other people, and all credit to him.
There are the beginnings of a solution in the pilots that the Minister inherited from the previous Administration. There was a £20 million shared equity scheme, which was jointly supported by the MOD and the Department for Communities and Local Government.
29 Jun 2011 : Column 1078
The scheme was a good idea, but what the hon. Gentleman has highlighted is a whole range of different parts of this problem that go much deeper than we first thought. The matter requires fresh thinking on a cross-departmental basis to ensure that we can persuade the various lending authorities to treat service personnel in the way that the hon. Gentleman has described. Service personnel are special to us and they deserve special treatment in all sorts of ways.
I am quite convinced, having looked at the challenge, that it is perfectly feasible for any self-respecting building society listening to the debate to find a vehicle that will work for this category. If a single building society can do it, perhaps others will, too. I should like the Minister to commit the Government to work with the private sector to bring that about.
Such work needs to cross a number of boundaries. With long-term planning for service personnel, their family situations would be more stable, and they would stay in the services for the longer term. Part of that work spills over into education. The Minister needs to liaise with his colleagues in education, so that we overcome the other little barrier: the placement of young schoolchildren when people leave the forces to ensure that they are in stable school environments within the geographical areas where their families plan to live. A holistic approach is needed, and the problem can be solved with a bit of joined-up thinking.
7.45 pm
The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant Shapps): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on calling this debate on a subject that is enormously important to many hon. Members and to people beyond. The constructive and helpful manner in which he has addressed the issue is appreciated. It is right that we do everything possible to honour those who have served this country, who have gone out of their way and put their lives on the line. In my view and, in fact, that of the Prime Minister—he said it from this very Dispatch Box earlier today—it is not enough simply to remove the disadvantages that having been away from home might bring. If we put ourselves in the position of those who defend the rest of us, we see that it is fair to expect them to be given a foot on the housing ladder as well. I want to make it a specific goal of the Government to ensure not only that we are removing those disadvantages but that we are actively helping.
My hon. Friend raises a number of key points, some of which we have already been talking about. I will try to address his concerns. He refers to the Firstbuy initiative that we launched recently, and ensuring that those who have served this country are at the top of the Firstbuy list. He rightly points out that it should help 10,000 or 10,500 families to purchase homes. I want to ensure that our ex-servicemen are at the front of the line to do that, and we have said that we will ensure that they are. They are being prioritised right at the top, along with people at the top of the housing waiting list. None the less, I intend to ensure that we promote the scheme properly to those who are in the target category. In doing so, we will send Firstbuy special agents into military bases here and abroad, as my hon. Friend mentions, to ensure that we find the right people, so that they know about the schemes. That activity is already under way, and I
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can put my hon. Friend’s mind to rest about the detail at that scheme by letting him know that the network of Firstbuy agents is already in place and active. For example, I have the marketing material that they are sending to barracks to promote the scheme.
My hon. Friend mentioned social housing. Of course, people do not always want to return to purchase houses, as that might not suit their situation. They might return and want to get on to the social housing waiting lists. Again, I have some good news for him: I intend to consult on how we can better handle their position on the social housing waiting lists. I am determined—I am sure that the whole House is—to ensure that people do not return and find themselves languishing at the bottom of the housing waiting lists, perhaps because a local authority is trying to apply a local connection rule. That is completely wrong, so I reassure my hon. Friend that we will consult on a better way to ensure that returning squaddies are at the top of that list.
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): First, on social housing, I urge the Government to ensure that those councils with large garrison communities have additional resources if that priority is to be meaningful. Secondly, I seek the Minister’s assurance about the failings of an organisation called Blue Force that was based in my constituency and operated from the former Colchester barracks with MOD phone numbers. It was set up to encourage serving personnel around the world to buy, but it went under owing hundreds of thousands of pounds, with many serving military personnel losing thousands individually.
Grant Shapps: On the first point, my hon. Friend is absolutely right that resources need to follow. He will be aware that we have launched not just the Firstbuy scheme to build 10,500 homes for purchase, but a range of different schemes for affordable rent that will very much apply across the country, and aim to build 150,000-plus homes. Of course, as I announced a few moments ago, we will ensure that military personnel are right up there on that list. I intend to consult on the matter after the Localism Bill has finished its progress through the other place. The case of Blue Force is not one with which I am familiar. I would be happy to receive further information on it.
It is interesting that my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury raised the issue of right to buy and whether time outside the country counts towards the right to buy qualification. I am reliably informed that nothing has changed since the Housing Act 1985. This Government certainly have not made any changes, and I do not think that the previous Government did either. Again, I invite him to provide details if he has any concerns about that. Someone who serves abroad should certainly not lose that time, when it should count towards their right to buy.
As my hon. Friend knows, I have promoted these issues, particularly by holding a military housing summit on 16 May, the same day that the military covenant was launched. I sat around a table and held discussions with a range of military leaders, charity workers, defence officials and many others about how we can improve the situation. I reassure him that a whole range of ideas
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came out of that meeting—from the Firstbuy discussions, to what more we can do to let our armed forces have a fair crack of the whip at social housing, and to the problems that he eloquently outlined involving how British Forces Post Office addresses have not qualified, until now, with the credit reference agencies that all the mortgage lenders use when assessing a mortgage application. That is an extraordinary problem that should be solved easily. I can inform the House that we have been working to resolve it for several months, since the coalition came to office. We are fairly close to a resolution.
Andrew Miller: The Minister is making an important point. Will he send a strong message to all credit reference agencies that both the Government and the Opposition are incredibly proud of BFPO? It reflects an important part of our society, and we regard it as an insult to our troops that they should be treated in that way by credit reference agencies.
Grant Shapps: The point has been made clearly, and I hear that other hon. Members agree, as do the Government. We have been discussing the matter and are close to resolution. It is an example of how a tiny piece of bureaucracy can cause complete mayhem for somebody’s future life. The inability to score highly on a credit record is important, and it is only a matter of a software change—the computers at Experian and elsewhere simply need to be able to accept BFPO postcodes so that they do not create a problem. Indeed, it could be part of the solution, because once it has been flagged up that somebody has been in the military, all the additional assistance that I have mentioned— for example, Firstbuy—could be brought to bear simply through that information coming to light. I have found the Council of Mortgage Lenders and others to be very helpful in trying to resolve the problem, and we are not far off making an announcement. That is good progress.
I can also report that the scheme managed by the MOD that the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) mentioned is expected to help a minimum of 250 families into affordable home ownership. I know that that will be widely welcomed. Of course, there are several other key challenges, and I intend to pick up on those themes at a further first-time buyers’ housing summit, which I will hold on 5 July. I will add some of those items to the agenda so that we can keep proper tabs on where we have reached.
I believe that we are considering an issue that one cannot simply approach once and expect it to be resolved.
Grant Shapps: We have to keep returning to the matter, just as the hon. Gentleman is about to do with his intervention.
Andrew Miller: Will the Minister please add to his agenda the special tools that are needed to enable people to transfer from buy-to-rent to buy-to-live-in? A special vehicle is needed for military personnel in that category. That would help them to buy early, which would obviously help later in their careers.
Grant Shapps: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I have not examined that so far, and I am certainly happy to add it to the agenda and give some thought to how we could assist.
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We are trying to assist in many different ways. One strange problem is that, six months before someone is discharged, they get a notice of cessation, which tells them that they will be moved out of their military accommodation. There is not much connectivity between that and the local authority, which may not know that those people are about to come down the line and may be in need of housing help, advice or assistance. We intend to join that process up as best we can. That is important.
The more I have looked into the matter, the more it strikes me that the key is joining all the dots. It is not that the country is not grateful and nobody wants to help—far from it. My experience has been the opposite. However, the dots have not been sufficiently joined up.
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The bureaucratic barriers have got in the way. I commit us to ensuring that, in every possible way, we will seek out and actively try to destroy those barriers, taking on board the excellent ideas that have been presented in debates such as tonight’s and any others, wherever they come from. It is my goal and the Government’s intention to ensure that when those who have bravely served in the military come home, that bravery and the job that they did so selflessly is recognised by everybody in the country, particularly when it comes to housing needs.