The sunset clause puts the onus on a Government after an election to reintroduce the legislation, and no doubt a sensible Government would do that, but if there is no sunset clause, the onus is on the new Government to get rid of the legislation. They could do that by repealing it, but they would then face the anger of the British people for having taken away their referendum rights. A sunset clause is very different from the possibility of repeal after election. The House can repeal any legislation—even, I suspect, treaty obligations. Over time, we could say that we wish to withdraw from a treaty. No doubt we would have to give notice and negotiate, which would cause all sorts of difficulties, but the House could, if it chose, withdraw from a treaty. If there were to be a referendum on membership of the EU and there was a substantial vote in favour of withdrawing, the House would have to debate withdrawing from a treaty. It would have to tell that to the EU. I am not saying that that is going to happen any time soon, but it is a possibility. If a particular piece of legislation is not to the taste of a future Government, they could repeal it, but that is very different from having it automatically die at the point of an election. I therefore
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strongly oppose the sunset clause, and if there are Divisions on any of the Lords amendments, I will certainly vote against them.
Chris Heaton-Harris: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who is a very wise and knowledgeable man in this regard.
The European Union Bill is not exactly what I thought we were going to get at the start of this process. When I stood for Parliament, I was looking forward to a sovereignty Act or a Bill of Rights—something with quite a lot of guts in it. We have now had this forced marriage between my party and the Lib Dems, however, and the dowry that we paid involved the slight watering down of many of the items that I, standing on a Conservative manifesto, would have liked. This was one of them.
After our debates on the Bill here and in Committee, during which it was lovely to learn all about how Parliament works, we happily sent the Bill on its way to the Lords. It was interesting to note that the Opposition decided that they did not have any views on Europe at that point. They decided not to vote; it was a matter of a one-line Whip, and they really preferred it if most of their Members went home. That gives me even more reason to admire the hon. Member for Luton North, who has stuck with the Bill through thick and thin during its progress through this place.
At the end of the Bill’s Third Reading, I said that I could hear strange noises emanating from the other end of the building, as though tombs were opening and strange beasts appearing. The Minister for Europe is much more generous and benevolent than I am when describing the people in the other place who have amended the Bill. For me, the Lords amendments have raised a huge number of concerns.
My first concern is about the turnout threshold. When their Lordships were discussing the alternative vote referendum, not many of them were interested in thresholds; the wonderful Lord Williamson of Horton, who tabled amendments on thresholds in this Bill, was certainly not. He was much quieter on thresholds in the AV referendum, but I am sure that his views on thresholds in matters European were not in the least influenced by his time as a career civil servant who served as head of the European secretariat in the Cabinet Office from 1983 to 1987, and as Secretary-General of the European Commission from 1987 to 1997. He was ably supported on one particular amendment, which did not pass, by Lord Liddle, about whom I shall say more in a moment.
Lord Liddle had an interesting take on why the Lords were trying to confuse what we had passed in the House of Commons. Speaking to a consequential amendment to amendment 5, he said that
“if you are seriously committed to Britain’s participation in the European Union, you want a British Government to be able to respond flexibly to events and to be a good partner to our partners in the Union. We cannot completely tie our hands in advance when we do not know the future—as the example of the European stability mechanism shows.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 8 June 2011; Vol. 728, c. 311.]
I only wish that we had had this Bill before the European stability mechanism was proposed. That would have ensured a very different financial outcome for our country.
Those were the wonderful bits about the threshold. The amendments to clause 6 also give me great cause for concern. They are the bits that cut out all the
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referendums that we in this place want to see. Lots of the amendments tabled in the other place were tabled by Lord Hannay of Chiswick. He was the UK’s permanent representative to the European Union from 1985 to 1990; he was part of the diplomatic service, bless his soul. Others were tabled by a very special man whose credentials I cannot criticise: Lord Liddle, who was a special adviser to Tony Blair when he was Prime Minister from 1997 to 2004. He then went to Lord Mandelson’s Cabinet, and he was principal adviser to the President of the European Commission from October 2007. A third person in the Lords also tabled amendments on these matters: Lord Tugendhat. He was a Conservative Member of Parliament from 1970 to 1976, after which he was a European Commissioner. Hon. Members will be able to see a theme developing here in regard to the sort of people who have tabled amendments at the other end of the corridor and who want to wreck these measures.
7.15 pm
Mark Reckless: Will my hon. Friend, as an ex-Member of the European Parliament, explain the difference between his position and that of the individuals he has described who, in some cases, have a pension from the European Commission? Does he agree that, were they to speak or act in a manner that was contrary to the interests of their previous employer, they might have their pensions taken away?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. That is not relevant to the amendments that the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) is addressing. He should come back to them and to his reasons for disagreeing with them.
Chris Heaton-Harris: First, I shall give way to the hon. Member for Luton North.
Kelvin Hopkins: I am interested to hear about the particular Members of the House of Lords whom the hon. Gentleman mentioned, but he ought also to mention a number of Conservative former Members of this House who were enthusiasts for, and indeed constructed, the policy for joining the exchange rate mechanism, which almost led to an economic collapse and certainly led to the collapse of support for the Conservative party. It is only fair to mention them as well.
Chris Heaton-Harris: Please do not steal my thunder for later. I am aware that Madam Deputy Speaker might rule me out of order, so to stay well in order, I shall detail how the peers at the other end of the corridor have taken away referendums from the people on matters of EU taxation.
But hold on, let us not talk about Members of the House of Lords. It was difficult to understand from the comments of the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) whether Labour supported the British people having a referendum on an EU tax. We know that the peers do not, because they voted on that matter, but we do not know whether Labour Members would troop through the Lobby in favour of that proposal if we were to get
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into a game of constitutional ping-pong with the Lords this evening. What about foreign policy? That referendum has been taken away from the British people. Will Labour Members support us in the Lobby on that question? What about the questions on the abolition of vetoes, the European public prosecutor’s office, the transfer of power in employment law, operational defence policy or the introduction of a carbon tax?
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is listing a lot of important subjects. Quite frankly, I would support an EU referendum on paper clips, because, whatever the referendum was about, the British people would take the question to be one of whether or not they were in favour of the European Union. Everyone would understand that. I therefore support more items being placed in the Bill on which we would be allowed to have a referendum. What the British people want is a referendum on whether we should be in or out.
Chris Heaton-Harris: If only the hon. Gentleman’s Front Bench were as wise as he is. I know that he has been campaigning on this issue for a long time, and I thank him for his contribution.
If only those on the hon. Gentleman’s Front Bench could come clean and tell the British what they actually believe on these matters. Do they trust the British people enough to give them a vote on these matters? We are not sure, because up at the other end of the building, where the red Benches are, Labour Members—including Front Benchers—have trooped into the wrong Lobby on these matters on too many occasions. We would very much like to know where Labour Members stand on this. This is the fog of war as far as they are concerned. They want to rattle a few cages and see what comes out, but they certainly do not want to get caught stating any policy. However, these matters are fundamental to the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and it would have been good to hear something definite from the hon. Member for Caerphilly tonight. Perhaps the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) will help us out later.
Mr Cash: In a sense, this whole group of amendments is a con trick and an illusion. The test to be applied in regard to the number of people who vote in an election is a matter on which I spoke very strongly in the AV referendum debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) said, many of the people who tabled amendments on thresholds were not the slightest bit interested in them at that time. There is therefore an inconsistency of principle involved. What they are promoting, and everything that they have been doing over the past 27 years since I have been on the European Scrutiny Committee, during which time I have had the pleasure of watching their perambulations and machinations, is designed to force us further and further down the route towards European integration. They have advised Governments of all hues on the Maastricht treaty, the European Government, the exchange rate mechanism and the Nice and Amsterdam treaties.
I must have tabled the best part of 1,000 amendments against those treaties over the past 27 years, and with great pleasure. I have devoted, I suppose, almost a political lifetime to opposing every single thing that
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those noble Lords have put forward. I do not need to specify them individually; all I will say is that I regard them as having conducted a process that has led to the destruction of the European Community and, now, the European Union. One has only to look at what is happening today and to ask who is responsible for what has occurred. It has been a concert party—a concert party involving not only the United Kingdom establishment but, worse still, the European establishment alongside the United Kingdom establishment—that has led to the mess that the European Union is in now. As I said to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he came back from the European Council the other day, although we are glad that he felt obliged to deny that we would be involved in the Greek bail-out—having conceded, I am sad to say, that we would be involved in the bail-out of Portugal—he now has the opportunity, as the Prime Minister of this country, to go forward in the national interest and renegotiate the treaties, to get us out of the mess that those noble Lords, individually and collectively, have got us into.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): We are all grateful to my hon. Friend for his lifelong service on this issue, but on the esoterica of this group of amendments, can he clarify for me that, taken as a whole, they are simply spoiling amendments?
Mr Cash: They are, and it is for that reason that I will not be able to vote for them, even though I happen to have some sympathy for the idea of a reasonable test for referendums. However, these amendments are a blind—an attempt to get people to go along with the 40% test for the electorate on the one hand, but also to associate them with a whole range of matters that are entirely inimical to the interests of the United Kingdom. I am not particularly interested in the list that the Government have produced; as I said at the beginning of the proceedings on this Bill, I think that it is a mouse of a Bill. The issue on which we now need to concentrate is the big landscape and the fact that, as the European Council on Foreign Relations paper argued the other day, Maastricht has to be revised. We will have to return to the question of what kind of Europe we want.
This list of proposed matters—which will never come up in this Parliament, as we know—is, therefore, a blind in its own way, but to reduce it to three core issues really makes it an absurdity. I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that on the big landscape, this is the time for us to take a bigger, more responsible and more statesmanlike view, in the interests of the people of this country, to see the European question as the failure that it is and to get down to the serious business of renegotiating all the treaties and moving to an association of nation states, so that we can work together co-operatively, rather than by co-ordination, to deal with the real, practical problems that this country faces—the Brazils, Indias and Chinas of this world—instead of dancing on the head of a pin, as we are with most of this Bill.
My argument to my right hon. Friend is very simple. He may have the advantage of having come forward with a few proposals that touch at the margins of this issue, but the real question is what is he—or, indeed, the Prime Minister—going to do to get us out of the mess that those treaties have got not only us but the people in Europe into? Indeed, young people aged between 18 and
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25 in several countries are now suffering unemployment of 47%. It is absolutely impossible to accept that, and as I said in the 1990s, when this whole system collapses, it would not surprise me to see the rise of the far right and massive unemployment, destabilising the entire European Union, with the most devastating consequences for the international order. That is the problem that we are faced with, and that is why these amendments are not to be accepted.
Lords amendment 3 disagreed to.
Lords amendments 5 to 13 disagreed to.
Mr Lidington: I beg to move Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment 14.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment (b).
Mr Lidington: I should like first to recognise that the issue we are debating is, to an extent, an issue of detail that has aroused some fairly intensive debate, involving some extremely experienced and high-powered lawyers. It is not an issue related to the rationale for clause 18 as a whole, and I welcome the acceptance by the House of Lords of the rationale for a provision of this nature. Indeed, the author of Lords amendment 14, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said when he presented his amendment on Report in the other place that there was very little between his position and that of the Government on the point of principle, saying:
“It is important that this declaratory measure”—
“should be made because of the theory sometimes propounded that Community law in the United Kingdom derives from the treaty alone by virtue of the European Union legal order. I believe that it is right that we should make it plain at this juncture that that is not so.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 15 June 2011; Vol. 728, c. 790.]
However, noble Lords who voted in support of Lords amendment 14 took the view that the European Communities Act 1972 is the only route by which EU law takes effect in the United Kingdom, and that all the references to directly effective or applicable EU law in other Acts are linked to that Act. Lords amendment 14 therefore amends clause 18 to refer specifically to the European Communities Act 1972, rather than to the wider reference point of “an Act of Parliament”, in order to affirm that this is the sole route by which directly effective and directly applicable EU law takes effect in the UK.
Mr Cash:
I rather suspect that my right hon. Friend expected that I would rise at about this point. Very quickly, the European Communities Act 1972 might be the Act of Parliament by virtue of which we voluntarily entered into the acceptance of European law—as it has accumulated, like a tsunami, since 1972, both widening and deepening—but does he not agree that the crucial words are those of Lord Bridge in the Factortame case,
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who said that we voluntarily did that? Therefore, the special significance of the 1972 Act has to be tempered by the fact that it was what Parliament decided at that time. That is the crucial question to which we shall turn shortly.
Mr Lidington: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I am sure he will recall the debate on these matters on Second Reading and particularly on the first day in Committee when we spent an entire day debating clause 18. He will also recall—it is clear from Hansard—that I made it clear on behalf of the Government that the European Communities Act 1972 had effect in this country, so European law had effect here insofar as it stemmed from that piece of legislation, because Parliament had willed that that should be the case. If a future Parliament were to decide to repeal that Act, it would be perfectly within that Parliament’s power so to do, although my hon. Friend would be the first to appreciate that there would be immediate consequences for the UK’s treaty obligations. There would be a political crisis at that point. We debated that important issue of principle for a day in Committee, as I said, but I want to try to focus on the Lords amendments now.
7.30 pm
Mr Cash: Indeed. That is precisely why my right hon. Friend knows I must move on to ask him about the assertions of certain members of the Supreme Court—criticised by the late Lord Bingham in severe terms—to the effect that Parliament has only a qualified sovereignty and that the ultimate authority effectively rests with them. It is precisely for that reason that we should be extremely anxious to ensure that no words are imported into this clause, as the Bill leaves this House and will finally be enacted, that would in any way allow the Supreme Court to move in on that territory and claim ultimate authority.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I have been generous to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) as the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, but his interventions are getting very long. I realise that these are important points, but he is always able to catch my eye if he wants to expand on them.
Mr Lidington:
I make two points to my hon. Friend. First, the only reason the Supreme Court has power to adjudicate here on European Union matters is because Parliament has provided for directly effective and directly applicable EU law to have effect in the United Kingdom legal order by virtue of passing statutes that give European law that direct effect and application here. Secondly, as I think my hon. Friend knows—he is being a bit mischievous—he is trying to tempt me again on to a much broader issue, which is the important philosophical question of whether ultimate legislative supremacy lies with Parliament or whether parliamentary sovereignty is a construct of the common law controlled by judges. Speaking as an elected parliamentarian, I am quite clear and argue quite naturally that Parliament as the elected limb of body politic must have the ultimate say, but in making that case we are
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entering into a philosophical debate that goes way beyond the parameters of the European Union Bill, let alone Lords amendment 14.
Let me return to the Lords amendment. I am mindful of the arguments advanced by Lord Mackay of Clashfern and his supporters in the House of Lords, and I greatly appreciate their legal expertise. We considered Lord Mackay’s arguments very carefully both before the debate in the other place and following the Lords acceptance of the amendment. I sought further legal advice on this point, and the Government’s view remains that although the European Communities Act 1972 is indeed the principal means by which directly effective or directly applicable EU law takes effect in the UK, a number of other Acts of Parliament also give effect to EU law independently of the 1972 Act. For example, provisions of the Scotland Act 1998, of the Government of Wales Act 2006 and of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 put Ministers from the devolved Administrations under an obligation to act in accordance with EU law. Some of those settlements define EU obligations in a manner similar to the language used in section 2(1) of the 1972 Act—but, significantly, they do so not by reference to that Act.
The Government are therefore concerned that, were this House to agree with the Lords amendment as it stands, it could create the risk that the courts interpret this clause as restricting the ability of legislation other than the 1972 Act to incorporate directly applicable or directly effective EU law into UK law. That, in turn, could ultimately mean that clause 18 could be interpreted as being more than declaratory, which would rather undermine what we are trying to do with this Bill. This would not, in our view, reflect the law accurately, and so we seek to disagree with the Lords amendment as currently framed.
In that sense, I agree entirely with the arguments put forward by my hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Mr Cash) and for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd), but I also recognise Lord Mackay’s point that the 1972 Act is the primary conduit for directly effective and directly applicable EU law to take effect in the United Kingdom. In recognition of this concern, the Government propose a change of wording to the Lords amendment that would retain the reference to the European Communities Act 1972 but, importantly, also refer to the existence of other Acts of Parliament that also give effect to EU law.
Mr David: I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point and I have sympathy with his argument. Crucial to the argument, it seems to me, are the words
“by virtue of an Act of Parliament”.
What is the difference between putting those words at the end rather than at the start of the clause, where they were initially?
Mr Lidington:
I decided to include the words on the basis of the best legal advice available to me across Government at the time. When preparing the Bill for introduction into this House, I examined the wording and the question of whether a reference to the 1972 Act alone would be appropriate. I was given very clear legal advice that, because of the other statutes that make reference to the application of EU law, a simple reference
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to the 1972 legislation would not suffice. That explains the original wording of the Bill that came before the House of Commons.
What we have sought to do in framing our amendments to the Lords amendment is to recognise the view that the other place took that clause 18 should incorporate language that recognises the particular importance of the 1972 legislation. We see no reason why we should not amend the clause to make a specific reference to the 1972 Act so long as the clause also makes reference to those other Acts that give effect to EU law. This reflects the Government’s consistent position that other Acts of Parliament— independently of the European Communities Act 1972—might also allow for the incorporation of directly effective and directly applicable EU law into the UK legal order.
Mr Jenkin: I still do not understand what was wrong with the Government’s original drafting.
Mr Lidington: We believe that the original drafting met the tests that we had set to implement our policy of having a declaratory clause. What we are trying to do is to express through Government amendments the point made in the House of Lords that the 1972 legislation is of particular importance, while preserving the point of principle that we believe was incorporated in the original language as debated by the House of Commons.
Mr Lidington: I want to make some progress.
It is not only the devolution legislation that mentions European Union law. The Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, the Chiropractors Act 1994 and the Competition Act 1998 are further examples of legislation that allows European Union law to have direct effect in this country. Section 9A of the Company Directors Disqualification Act requires the United Kingdom to make a disqualification order against a person in certain circumstances, including circumstances in which an undertaking commits a breach of competition law under either article 81 or article 82 of the EC treaty—now articles 101 and 102 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. That Act refers directly to the treaty provisions without referring to the 1972 Act.
The amendment accepted by the other place removed the reference that makes it explicit that only by virtue of such Acts does directly effective and directly applicable EU law take effect in this country. Removing that reference leaves open the possibility of arguments that directly effective and directly applicable EU law could enter our law by other means, thus undermining the rationale behind the clause. The amendments that the Government propose seek to restore that important qualification, and to remove any doubt about whether directly effective or applicable EU law could enter United Kingdom law by other means.
Mr Cash: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr Lidington:
We welcome the acceptance in the House of Lords of the principle of clause 18, and recognise the concerns raised by colleagues there about the formulation of the clause. We believe that our amendments will both meet the concerns expressed by
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the proposers of the amendment and ensure that the provision reflects the law accurately. I therefore urge Members in all parts of the House to support them.
Mr Cash: I am sorry that the Minister deemed it unnecessary, or undesirable, to accept my intervention, but that does not prevent me from making my point.
As the Minister will recall, it was the clear view of the European Scrutiny Committee that clause 18 was unnecessary. I am glad to say that a conversation in which I engaged today with one of my—let us call him—long-standing contestants in matters European, Lord Howe of Aberavon, confirmed that he shared our view. I have great respect for his legal knowledge, and I am delighted that we have achieved such a degree of understanding.
The Government are embarking on what is, in matters constitutional, an extremely dangerous path to tread: a primrose path that could lead to disaster. I know that there was a great deal of detailed discussion—I hear of these things—with Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who, after all, used to be Lord Chancellor, and indeed was Lord Chancellor at the time of the Maastricht treaty. I remember well, as I am sure he does, that the whole business of European government was conceded, to our deep regret; hence the rebellion which I had the pleasure to lead.
The Government appear to have been caught on the horns of a dilemma, and I think that they should have dealt with that in a different way. On one hand they are confronted with the European Scrutiny Committee, the expert legal advice that it has received, the further consideration that it has given to these questions throughout the intervening period, and its conclusion that clause 18 is unnecessary and undesirable. On the other hand—the other horn of the dilemma—is the view of Lord Mackay of Clashfern that the amendment is merely declaratory.
7.45 pm
Unfortunately, in taking the line of least resistance—which, I am afraid, is their hallmark in matters European—the Government have fallen between two stools, and impaled themselves on the horns of the dilemma. I think that Members should feel impelled, as I do—for very sound reasons, which I shall now explain—to vote against the Government’s amendments and echo the concern expressed by the European Scrutiny Committee, which was supported by powerful advice.
As I have said, our Committee took a great deal of evidence from some very distinguished constitutional and legal experts. It is all on the record, and we need not go into the detail—what we need to discuss is what has happened since then—but I will say that, as Chairman of the Committee, I ensured that the evidence was evenly balanced. We weighed up all the evidence from the greatest experts who could possibly express a view on the subject, and reached conclusions that were supported by the majority of that evidence.
The Committee took the view that the principle of parliamentary supremacy should not be declared in statute, and that using the words
“It is only by virtue of an Act of Parliament that”
in a statutory provision such as clause 18 is tantamount to stating that there shall be parliamentary supremacy. However, the very stating of that undermines the central
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premise, which is that it does not need to be stated, and the danger of stating it is that, ultimately, the Supreme Court will be allowed into this sacrosanct arena.
We are not talking about some technicality; we are talking about the very reasons for the existence of this House of Commons. Law is passed on the basis of views that are taken in a freely elected democratic assembly, which themselves refer to the decisions made by the electors in a general election. The issue of parliamentary sovereignty in the context of the European Union is that ever since Maastricht, and to some extent before it, decisions made, for example, by majority vote have often proved inimical to policies espoused by elements of the Conservative party, and indeed by our manifesto.
One simple example is the repatriation of powers. The Government are faced with a conflict. In December 2005, when the Conservatives were in opposition, the present Prime Minister said that there should be a repatriation of social and employment legislation. Both Back Benchers and those now in the Government—including the Minister for Europe—opposed the Lisbon treaty in every respect. For the first time since 1972, the party was totally united. Now we find ourselves in the difficult position of being confronted with amendments that would allow an infringement of sovereignty, subject to final interpretation by the courts. The reversal of the hierarchy of norms that parliamentary supremacy implies is itself put at risk by the wording that the Government have chosen in their attempt to balance the views of Lord Mackay of Clashfern and the European Scrutiny Committee. The Government have chosen the easy way out, but it is not going to be easy—or, indeed, of any value whatever. It is extremely damaging to the national interest and the constitutional status of this House of Parliament. It may seem to be a few words, but unfortunately this issue has profound consequences.
The debate in the House of Lords could be said to have shown that a legitimate confusion can arise from enshrining in statute an unnecessary declaratory statement. To quote a former first parliamentary counsel’s comment: “unnecessary words turn septic.” Unnecessary words do not turn Eurosceptic; rather, they turn septic. That is what first parliamentary counsel said and, unfortunately, that is what both the Government’s amendment to the amendment of Lord Mackay of Clashfern and his amendment itself achieve. They create a kind of septicaemia in the adjudication of matters of sovereignty, and will give the courts the purchase that was originally implied in the explanatory notes, which referred to the common law principle. We went into this matter both earlier in the debate and in our report. When the Bill went to the House of Lords, the Government took the infamous reference to the “common principle” out of their explanatory notes—I give them credit for having listened to us on that. They did so because they knew of the dangers inherent in respect of the courts, and certain members of the Supreme Court who have an increasing tendency to make certain comments, as expressed in the Jackson case and Lord Bingham’s criticism, by name, of the judges involved. He was extremely upset and concerned, and for very good reasons.
Two additional problems arise from the fact that Lord Mackay’s amendment refers to the European Communities Act 1972. First, let me stress that my comments here should not be taken to prejudice the remarks I have already made that it is not about the 1972 Act exceptionally, but rather that Parliament has
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voluntarily agreed, as Lord Bridge said in the Factortame case, to incorporate that Act and therefore to allow all the consequences that flow from it, which are accumulating and, in my view, are extremely damaging to the United Kingdom and the people of this country in their daily lives. If we specify “European Communities Act 1972” rather than “an Act of Parliament”, an argument can properly be made that we are, effectively, disabling Parliament from giving effect to European law in future by means other than the European Communities Act—or, in other words, by a new Act. This is the law of unintended consequences, but made much more serious given the context of parliamentary supremacy.
The other problem is a technical question about an important issue relating to statutory interpretation. However much we in this House may wish to regard this matter as just a matter of debate, unfortunately when it gets into the clutches of the courts and certain elements in the Supreme Court who have a tendency to want to push the envelope on these issues, the reality is that it ceases to be a technical question, and becomes a very important constitutional question. I state unequivocally that that has led me to the view that I have to resist the Government’s amendment, and I urge other Members to do the same. If we specify “European Communities Act 1972”, a question arises as to whether that reference would cover future amendments to that Act after this Bill is enacted.
I am going into the details of all this because I want them to be on the record; the devil is in the detail. The Interpretation Act 1978 is the basis on which I believe the provision under discussion will be interpreted by the courts. Once it has left this House with these offensive words in it, as prescribed by Lord Mackay of Clashfern and the advice he has given to the House of Lords, it will become the law of the land and will then ultimately end up in the Supreme Court, with extremely unpredictable unintended consequences. There will then be a very dangerous situation. That is why I am taking the trouble to set all this out. The Supreme Court also has an obligation to consider what has been said in Parliament.
Turning to the point about statutory interpretation, as I have said the question arises as to whether the reference to the European Communities Act 1972 would cover future amendments to it after this Bill has been enacted. Section 20(2) of the Interpretation Act is ambiguous on this very difficult point, as is said in Francis Bennion’s superb volume on statutory interpretation. Section 20 provides:
“Where an Act refers to an enactment, the reference, unless the contrary intention appears, is a reference to that enactment as amended, and includes a reference thereto as extended or applied, by or under any other enactment, including any other provision of that Act.”
In a case on an analogous provision in a tax statute, the court in question held that applying it to future amendments was to give it
“a width of application which the wording, at best equivocal, could not bear, especially in a taxing statute.”
The Lords amendment therefore raises a doubt about whether clause 18 will apply to future amendments of the European Communities Act 1972 and consequently raises an unnecessary doubt about the application of the principle of dualism to such future amendments—in other words, opening the door to interpretation by the courts on this fundamental question.
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Mr Jenkin: May I just test my understanding? Am I right in thinking that my hon. Friend is saying that the original wording of the clause, covered by the Interpretation Act, covered everything, but referring specifically to the European Communities Act 1972 serves to limit the meaning of the clause so that future amendments to the 1972 Act will not be covered by it and are therefore subject to the interpretation of the Supreme Court?
Mr Cash: Effectively yes, and that is the one thing we wanted to avoid above all else. That is why the Committee took the view that it did on clause 18, as shared by Lord Howe of Aberavon, who is by no means a Eurosceptic. On a matter of clear interpretation after very considerable consideration—he is both a former Foreign Secretary and distinguished Queen’s counsel who brought the European Communities Act into being in the House of Commons in 1972—he says that clause 18 is completely unnecessary. He agrees with the Committee, and now, for the sake of trying to counter-balance the views of Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the Government are falling into the trap that I have described and making the potential for interpretation by the courts extremely dangerous.
8 pm
If there is to be a clause 18, for the reasons that I have outlined, the version that went to the Lords from the Commons should be preferred to the Lords amendment in the name of Lord Mackay of Clashfern. As I proposed in the amendment to Government amendment (b), the words “Act of Parliament” are to be preferred to “the European Communities Act 1972”. The Government’s amendment addresses these issues, but it would be much better not to state the principle at all; the amendment fails to deal with the trap that has been set. I know Lord Mackay of Clashfern to be a distinguished and canny Scots lawyer, and he understands exactly what he intends. He has, by the most clever sleight of hand, reinserted into the provision—[Interruption.] I see the Minister shaking his head and I shall give way to him.
Mr Lidington: I respect my hon. Friend’s expertise in this area, but to suggest that Lord Mackay of Clashfern would be party to any kind of sleight of hand is not to do him justice, and I hope that my hon. Friend would reconsider that point.
Mr Cash: I have no problem in acknowledging someone’s powerful views on constitutional questions. For example, I remember during the Maastricht proceedings that the noble Lord was quite clear on the question of whether the Maastricht treaty took us further and deeper into the integration process. He argued that it did not make any difference in principle because the 1972 Act already conceded that there had been a change in the constitutional position and, to all intents and purposes, there was, thus, no real change in the substance of the issue. That is not to accuse anybody; it is merely to recognise that they have a constitutional viewpoint and to recognise how they really regard the encroachments on our sovereignty, which were evident in the Jackson case, in the evidence that the Committee received from many distinguished witnesses and in the fact that the Government’s previous explanatory notes led us into a situation where we criticised the Government and they withdrew the offensive words, precisely for the reasons that I am presenting.
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The reality is that we have caught out the Government on their wording and they have now acquiesced in other wording which opens the door to statutory interpretation by the Supreme Court. That is the kernel of this matter. Whether or not my right hon. Friend the Minister really likes the way in which I have expressed this is neither here nor there. The real question, on which I challenge him, is this: does he deny that the wording in the Government’s amendment, in response to the Lords amendment, imports the opportunity for the Supreme Court to apply statutory interpretation and, thereby, to create a situation that could be best avoided, as set out by Lord Howe of Aberavon, our European Scrutiny Committee and the evidence that we received from so many people, by having no clause at all, rather than the current clause 18?
The Minister knows that I feel very strongly about the fact that we promised in our manifesto a sovereignty Act, and that was the consequence of discussions at the very highest level with the leadership. We knew that that was put into the manifesto as a direct response to the promises that were made. The bottom line is that we were given a second-rate provision that is unnecessary and that has since been criticised by the European Scrutiny Committee and eminent constitutional experts, including Lord Howe of Aberavon, and what the Government are introducing merely acquiesces to a degree in what Lord Mackay of Clashfern has proposed. That simply is not good enough and the Government should withdraw the proposed clause while they have the opportunity to do so. It is for those reasons that I shall be voting against it.
Mr David: This long debate, which has taken place over a number of months, has almost come full circle. I recall that we began our deliberations with the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) and others saying that what had been originally promised was a sovereignty Act but what was proposed was a truncated, boiled-down and diluted version of their intention in the form of a solitary clause—clause 18. Whichever permutation of clause 18 one looks at, be it what was originally suggested by the Government, the Lords amendment or the Government amendment to the Lords amendment, one finds that it is basically a declaratory statement. It does not take us back or forward; it is a pious declaration, a statement of fact and a statement of the legal position at the moment. Therefore, it does not do any harm and, in fact, it could possibly be useful.
There has been a modest change of emphasis in Government amendment (b) to the Lords amendment, and it is a sensible one. The words “by virtue of an Act of Parliament” were omitted from the Lords amendment and we were concerned that the emphasis was being placed solely on the 1972 Act. Although we recognise that that is the most important piece of legislation regarding the primacy of European law, other items of legislation are involved here. I was particularly pleased that the Minister referred to the legislation on the devolved institutions, as that is important in ensuring that we take a comprehensive approach. Therefore, the Government have put forward a modest improvement to what was suggested by the Lords. I recognise that they have gone some way towards accommodating what the Lords have said and I welcome that, which is why we will be supporting the Government amendment.
11 July 2011 : Column 99
Mr Cash: Is the hon. Gentleman actually saying that he agrees with the Government’s proposal, notwithstanding what has been said by the European Scrutiny Committee, Lord Howe of Aberavon and all the other people I have mentioned, and notwithstanding the most powerful legal advice that has been submitted, which suggests that this is a very unwise and dangerous move, for the reasons that I have set out?
Mr David: With all due respect, I say to the hon. Gentleman that I have read in great detail all the evidence that was given to the European Scrutiny Committee and I think that his summation of it is his interpretation of the evidence given. Most of the witnesses to the European Scrutiny Committee said, as I have said, that clause 18 is a statement of fact and that it does not take us forward or back. Therefore, we should not get hot under the collar about it.
Mr Jenkin: I do not wish to detain the House for more than a few minutes. I had not intended to take part in this debate, as I took part extensively in the debate on clause 18 in Committee and I thought that we had covered all the issues then. I had become reconciled to accepting the clause as the Government had drafted it and I came to today’s debate expecting my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) to make a technical argument, but one that would not necessarily excite me—of course I was wrong. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) says that the clause does not take us back and it does not take us forward, but he has missed the fundamental point about the revised drafting of the clause. I am not a lawyer—I am an amateur lawyer—but ever since we started discussing this clause earlier this year, I have had the sinking feeling that we are in very deep water and that we are potentially creating completely unnecessary problems for this House and for Parliament. I say that because the sovereignty of Parliament is axiomatic; it is self-evident and it is a historical fact.
We do not need to legislate in any way to maintain the sovereignty of Parliament. There would have been some virtue in a declaratory Act with the legal effect of returning powers to the United Kingdom from the European Union to redress our relationship so that we had the ability to negotiate, but this clause, which has erroneously been nicknamed the “sovereignty” clause but is no such thing, does not even attempt to do that. In fact, it does not even refer to the word “sovereignty”.
The clause puts in statute issues that are contested by the European Union legal structures in a context that means that the Supreme Court might have to interpret them. We know that some justices of our Supreme Court question the very notion of the sovereignty of Parliament as I have described it and think it is a matter of common law rather than of history and fact. I believe they are wrong and that Parliament will always be able to prove them wrong by legislating, as statute law always overrides common law.
Mr Cash:
Would my hon. Friend be interested to know that I was talking to an extremely eminent lawyer, although I hesitate to say who it was, and when he heard my arguments on clause 18, he said, “If a majority of the justices of the Supreme Court took the view that you are taking, it would be open to Parliament the next
11 July 2011 : Column 100
day”—he used those words—“to reverse that”? That troubles me, because if that happened it would precipitate a 100% crisis.
Mr Jenkin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing the House’s attention to that conversation. We are potentially engaged in the early skirmishes of a dispute between Parliament and the judiciary about which has supremacy. By legislating on this issue, which touches on the sovereignty of the Queen in Parliament, we are tempting the justices of the Supreme Court to begin toying with those concepts. They have already done so in some of their ancillary statements to cases—I forget the right word for such statements. We know that they are tempted in that direction and putting this clause into statute, as the evidence received by the European Scrutiny Committee showed, could be the red rag to the bull, providing meat for the justices of the Supreme Court to chew on.
Mr David: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Jenkin: I am just coming to the hon. Gentleman’s point.
I was minded to accept that we had done such a thing before I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Stone speak, but he has described how the situation might have been made worse than it would have been under the previous drafting of the clause. He referred to section 20 of the Interpretation Act 1978, which, if I understand it correctly, already stipulates that when an Act is referred to in an Act of Parliament that Act is deemed not to be constantly updated by subsequent amendments. The Act referred to in an Act of Parliament stands as it stood at the time of enactment and by specifying the European Communities Act 1972 in this clause we are opening up the possibility that at some stage in the future the 1972 Act will be amended but this clause will not apply to the amended Act or to the amendments to the Act, but only to the Act as it stands now. Should there be a dispute between the Supreme Court and Parliament about the sovereignty issues that touch on our relationship with the European Union, the question would be left open with more ambiguity rather than less.
8.15 pm
Given that we started from an entirely unsatisfactory position, I must say that I will support my hon. Friend the Member for Stone in the Lobby tonight if his amendment is put to a vote. It is important to put it on the record that the situation is unsatisfactory, that it is not as we wanted it to be when we set out our manifesto and that we are possibly making the situation worse. If we accept the amendment from the other place, we might make the situation even worse, and the very fact that my right hon. Friend the Minister has adjusted his position to accommodate the wording from the other place adds to the sinking feeling that the Government do not stand on stable legal ground and that they can be pushed around by extremely able, intelligent and clever people who nevertheless have a different view from my right hon. Friend and I on the question of our future relationship with the European Union. I am left uneasy and I want to register that unease tonight.
11 July 2011 : Column 101
Mr Lidington: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) and my hon. Friends the Members for Stone (Mr Cash) and for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) for their participation in the debate and I shall be brief in my response. I want to deal with the point of principle as well as the important point of detail about the interaction between this clause, the Government amendment and the Interpretation Act 1978.
Mr David: Before the Minister goes on, may I cast his mind back to the trenchant criticism from the European Scrutiny Committee about the explanatory notes that accompanied the Bill and, in particular, those on clause 18? I seem to recall the Minister giving the House a commitment that the explanatory notes would be examined and, if necessary, redrafted. Has that redrafting occurred and will there be further redrafting in the context of his amendment tonight?
Mr Lidington: The explanatory notes were changed when they were reprinted before the Bill was introduced in the House of Lords, just as I gave the House an undertaking that they would be. We amended the notes to make it clear that the references to common law in the relevant section were meant in contradistinction to statute law and that we were not commenting, as a Government and in either the Bill or the notes, on the important but much broader philosophical debate about the origins of parliamentary sovereignty.
Let me deal first with the point of general principle to which my hon. Friend the Member for Stone, in particular, referred. It has always been the Government’s position that clause 18 is declaratory of the existing state of our law in making it clear that European Union law has direct effect and application in this country for one reason and one reason only: namely, Parliament has given it that effect through primary legislation. I differ from my hon. Friend in that I continue to believe that it is valuable for us to have this declaratory clause on the statute book to serve as a clear expression of Parliament’s will and as an abiding point of reference for the courts if they are invited in future to consider again the sort of arguments that have previously been brought before them, most notably by the prosecution in the metric martyrs case, to the effect that European law has acquired over time an autonomous authority of its own that does not derive from Acts of Parliament.
Steve Baker: May I say how grateful I am that my right hon. Friend has given this clear statement of the Government’s and Parliament’s intent? We appear to have disappeared into such esoterica that even for one who takes a close interest in the clause it is almost impossible to understand the debate. Will the Minister confirm that should judges need to rule on this clause, they will be able to refer to Hansard to be absolutely clear what Parliament’s intent was?
Mr Lidington: Judges will of course look first at statute but it is also the case, following the Pepper v. Hart judgment, that if the courts are in any way uncertain about the meaning of a piece of legislation, they can look at what the Minister of the day said on behalf of the Government, as recorded in Hansard, as an aid to interpretation.
11 July 2011 : Column 102
Mr Cash: That may well be but as the Minister rightly says it will be the Minister’s view that is taken into account by the court and the Whips will make darn certain this evening that we lose this vote. That is the problem and that is one reason why I take such exception to this.
Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend has made his point. Not only Lord Mackay but the Lords Constitution Committee recognised that clause 18 is a reflection of the existing position in United Kingdom law. I do not want to get into a long argument with my hon. Friend the Member for Stone about the report of the European Scrutiny Committee, but that report focused largely on the bigger question of whether parliamentary sovereignty was a common-law principle. I repeat to the House what I said during Committee—that this clause does not get into that issue at all. It makes clear the basis on which European law takes effect in our domestic legal order.
Let me address the detailed point that has been put. Both my hon. Friends the Members for Stone and for Harwich and North Essex argued that the reference to the 1972 Act taken together with the Interpretation Act meant there was a risk of future amendments to the 1972 Act falling outside the scope of clause 18. This point was specifically considered in the drafting of the Government’s amendments to the Lords amendment. That is exactly why the Government’s amendments, especially amendment (b), do not limit the clause to the 1972 Act but also take account of all Acts that might give rise to directly applicable and enforceable EU law, which will include any Acts amending the 1972 Act. I hope that with that reassurance colleagues on both sides of the House will be able to endorse the Government’s amendments.
Amendment (a) made to Lords amendment 14.
Amendment (b) propo sed to Lords amendment 14.— (Mr Lidington .)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The House divided:
Ayes 485, Noes 22.
[8.23 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Ashworth, Jon
Bacon, Mr Richard
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benn, rh Hilary
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berger, Luciana
Berry, Jake
Betts, Mr Clive
Bingham, Andrew
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blackwood, Nicola
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bruce, Fiona
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Chishti, Rehman
Clark, rh Greg
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crabb, Stephen
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Davey, Mr Edward
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
de Bois, Nick
De Piero, Gloria
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Dugher, Michael
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Engel, Natascha
Eustice, George
Evans, Chris
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flynn, Paul
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fovargue, Yvonne
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francis, Dr Hywel
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Gale, Mr Roger
Gapes, Mike
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glen, John
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodman, Helen
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grayling, rh Chris
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Damian
Green, Kate
Greening, Justine
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gwynne, Andrew
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hames, Duncan
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Havard, Mr Dai
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendrick, Mark
Hendry, Charles
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hollingbery, George
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hood, Mr Jim
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, rh Mr George
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunt, Tristram
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Mr Marcus
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Lavery, Ian
Laws, rh Mr David
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leslie, Charlotte
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McCartney, Karl
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKinnell, Catherine
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Nicky
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munn, Meg
Munt, Tessa
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
O'Donnell, Fiona
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Ottaway, Richard
Owen, Albert
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pearce, Teresa
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Perkins, Toby
Phillips, Stephen
Phillipson, Bridget
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pound, Stephen
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reeves, Rachel
Reid, Mr Alan
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Rudd, Amber
Ruddock, rh Joan
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sarwar, Anas
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shelbrooke, Alec
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spellar, rh Mr John
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tami, Mark
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timms, rh Stephen
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Uppal, Paul
Vaz, Valerie
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walley, Joan
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr Mike
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Chris
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Mr Rob
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr Shailesh Vara and
Mr Philip Dunne
NOES
Bone, Mr Peter
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Cryer, John
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Field, rh Mr Frank
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Main, Mrs Anne
McDonnell, John
Nuttall, Mr David
Percy, Andrew
Reckless, Mark
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Stringer, Graham
Turner, Mr Andrew
Walker, Mr Charles
Whittingdale, Mr John
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr William Cash and
Kelvin Hopkins
Question accordingly agreed to.
11 July 2011 : Column 103
11 July 2011 : Column 104
11 July 2011 : Column 105
11 July 2011 : Column 106
Amendment (b) made to Lords amendment 14.
Lords amendment 14, as amended, agreed to.
Commencement
Motion made, and Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 15.—(Mr Lidington . )
The House proceeded to a Division.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
The House having divided:
Ayes 301, Noes 212.
[8.41 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brake, Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittingdale, Mr John
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mark Hunter and
Bill Wiggin
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Ashworth, Jon
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
De Piero, Gloria
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr Dai
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hood, Mr Jim
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Shannon, Jim
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Angela Smith and
Phil Wilson
Question accordingly agreed to.
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11 July 2011 : Column 108
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11 July 2011 : Column 110
Lords amendment 15 disagreed to.
Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 3, 5 to 13 and 15;
That Mr David Lidington, James Duddridge, Mr Wayne David, Mr David Hamilton and Mr David Heath be members of the Committee;
That Mr David Lidington be the Chair of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee.
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(James Duddridge .)
Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
11 July 2011 : Column 111
Rights and Protection of Victims
8.58 pm
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I beg to move,
That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 10610/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to the Draft Directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims of crime, No. 10613/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to the Draft Regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters, No. 10612/11 and Addenda 1 and 2 relating to a Commission Communication–strengthening victims’ rights in the EU and the unnumbered Explanatory Memorandum dated 16 May 2011 relating to a Council Resolution on a Roadmap for strengthening the rights and protection of victims, in particular in criminal proceedings; and welcomes the opportunity to consider views on whether the UK should opt in to the draft Directive establishing minimum standards on the rights, support and protection of victims and the Draft Regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters.
I thank the European Scrutiny Committee for calling the debate. The Government are currently actively considering in detail the European Commission’s proposals on victims, and in particular whether the United Kingdom should opt into the proposed directive on victims and regulation on protection orders. There has already been some scrutiny of the protection order regulation, but it is useful to have this opportunity to hear Members’ views on the proposals on the Floor of the House, to inform our decisions.
The Government are obviously committed to supporting the victims of crime. One of the main objects of the criminal justice system, as well as punishing those guilty of serious criminal offences, is offering protection and support to the victims of crime. We welcome the priority that the European Commission is giving the matter and the further impetus provided by the Hungarian Government, who will hold the presidency of the European Union for the second half of this year. There was a Budapest declaration setting out their intention, supported by the Council of the European Union, to deal with various matters concerning the victims of crime in the course of their presidency.
I am glad to say that this country is seen by the Commission as an example of best practice on supporting victims. The Government hope to strengthen what we do, but there is no doubt that we are well ahead of the vast majority of members of the European Union in what we do now.
The thing that the House should particularly have regard to is that our own citizens are increasingly travelling and working across the EU. If a British citizen is unfortunate enough to fall victim to crime in another member state, I do not think that they always get the level of support that they would expect in similar circumstances in the United Kingdom. The Government see one of the main attractions of this package of work as, among other things, helping our citizens to get the full support that they ought to have in a modern and civilised state when they are victims of crime. We want to ensure that British citizens are provided with the information, support and protection that they rightly expect to receive when they fall victim to crime in any EU member state.
My officials have been working with the Commission to share our experiences of supporting victims, and to consider how the existing EU framework agreement on
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the subject might be improved. The Commission, I am glad to say, has taken on board many of our suggestions in its recent proposals. I am especially pleased that the proposed directive takes into account the particular role of victims in our common law system. We encounter drafting problems at least in quite a lot of proposals in this field, because, like the Irish, Cypriots and Maltese, we tend to have a common law system, whereas the rest of Europe does not. It is necessary to ensure that the procedural differences and the practices of different countries are respected in such proposals.
The Government are committed to targeting resources towards those victims who need them the most. We continue to develop our own proposals on victims—we hope to come forward with some in the autumn—but meanwhile, we will continue to work with our European partners to ensure that any EU action on victims supports our approach. We are particularly trying to ensure that any requirements imposed upon or accepted by member states are proportionate to the needs of victims and properly targeted on those with the most important needs.
I wait to hear whether there are any objections in principle to the objectives being pursued by the Commission and the Hungarian presidency, and the vast majority of the member states on the European Council—as far as I am aware, that means all member states on the Council—but I think they are unlikely. It is plainly desirable that we consider spreading best practice across the Union when it comes to protecting victims of any nationality who have the misfortune to fall prey to crime in any of our countries. However, I look forward to hearing the views of right hon. and hon. Members on any particular aspects of the package of proposals before us to which they want to draw the House’s and the Government’s attention.
9.3 pm
Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome the opportunity for the House to debate this important draft European Union directive. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House will have constituents who have been affected by crimes elsewhere in the EU, and I want to take this opportunity to share with the House the case of my constituents, Lesley and Steve Dunne, which highlights the very serious shortcomings in current practice and legislation.
I echo the Secretary of State’s opening remarks. As he said, we want proper support that reflects our modern and civilised state. He also said that we should require a directive to be both proportionate and properly targeted, and I very much agree with him on that. Mr and Mrs Dunne were badly let down by the legal system in Spain. They had lived there and their son Gary was murdered there in 2006. It took the family three years to have their son’s body repatriated to the United Kingdom. Throughout their campaign to have his body returned, Mr and Mrs Dunne, whom I now count as good friends, showed great courage, fortitude and incredible dignity in the face of the many barriers and hurdles to securing what most families would take for granted—being able to bury their son.
The draft directive before the House will go some way to addressing some of the problems that they faced and that other families have faced as well. It seeks to ensure that member states recognise that, where a person’s death has been caused by a criminal offence, the family
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members are to be defined as victims. Mr and Mrs Dunne were not treated with the respect that the House would expect for the parents of a murdered son. The Secretary of State was right that in many regards this country is at the forefront of best practice in the treatment of victims. We have a long way to go, but compared with the experience in Spain that I am outlining, we are well advanced. The draft directive sets a minimum standard for access to information and support. If this is adopted successfully across the EU, I sincerely hope that other families affected by the death of a loved one in Europe will not have to endure what Mr and Mrs Dunne have.
Steve and Lee Dunne learned of their son’s murder not from the Spanish or British authorities, but from a friend in Spain who had heard of the murderer’s arrest not from the Spanish authorities, but from another friend who had read about it in the local press. When Steve and Lee received a call from the authorities informing them that the perpetrator had been arrested, they flew immediately to Spain in the belief that it meant that Gary’s body could be repatriated for a funeral in their home city of Liverpool. This was not the case, however. They flew to Spain, where they discovered that they had been called there simply for the courts to ask them whether they wanted the suspect prosecuted. The suspect had fled Spain to evade capture.
Mr and Mrs Dunne were appalled. They had not been properly advised of the reason they had been called to Spain. As far as they were concerned, of course they wanted their son’s alleged murderer to face justice in a Spanish court. I hope that the provisions on information and support in the draft directive will ensure that in the future clear information will be given to families in similar situations. This lack of access to information was compounded by the absence of officially provided translators or interpreters during the prosecution. I am pleased therefore that this specific issue is covered in the draft directive. Lee and Steve ended up having to hire translators and interpreters at their own expense, which has contributed to them incurring costs of about £40,000 to run their ultimately successful campaign to secure Gary’s repatriation. I will return to that point in a moment.
This lack of financial support was exacerbated by the lack of victim support. Legal aid was neither offered nor available. No counselling or bereavement support was available to help the family through what inevitably was a difficult and traumatic time.
That the draft directive seeks to treat the families of murder victims as victims themselves is a welcome recognition of the very real personal dangers that families can be exposed to when they pursue prosecution in other countries. Mr and Mrs Dunne certainly felt that their safety was at risk on a number of occasions during the judicial process in Spain. For example, unpleasant threats were made by acquaintances of the accused during the proceedings, and they felt that there was a lack of support and information about what was going on throughout the trial.
Steve and Lee have not received financial support from the Spanish authorities towards meeting the costs that they incurred in their attempts to repatriate their late son’s body. Members of the public in this country, particularly in Liverpool, have given generously in donations, which have offered some assistance to the family, but as I said earlier, they incurred significant
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costs of more than £40,000 simply trying to secure the burial of their son. They eventually learned that they had been granted compensation by the Spanish court of £125,000, to be paid by the perpetrator, but they did not find out about it until two years after the ruling had been made to award the compensation. So far, they have received less than £1,500 of the £125,000 that they were granted, and the payments have now stopped.
This highlights two problems that are addressed by the draft directive. The first is the very limited progress that has been made in getting the compensation to the family; I shall return to that matter later. The second is the fact that the information channels were so poor that they did not find out about the granting of the compensation until two years after the decision, in a period in which the family was struggling financially owing to having had to raise the money to fight their case to have their son’s body returned.
Mr and Mrs Dunne came to London to visit Parliament earlier today, in advance of tonight’s debate. They asked me to describe their ordeal in this way to demonstrate the appalling shortcomings in the system. They are tireless campaigners whose drive, courage and determination to prevent any other family from going through what they went through are an inspiration to us all. As well as campaigning on the issues that we are discussing this evening, they have visited schools across Merseyside to educate young people about the dangers of knife crime.
Gary Dunne’s body was ultimately returned for a family funeral in Liverpool in 2009. On behalf of the family, I place on record their appreciation of the hard work of the Member of the European Parliament for North West England, Arlene McCarthy, and of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), both of whom raised Gary’s case consistently throughout the family’s ordeal. They raised the case with the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who responded to the campaign by raising Mr and Mrs Dunne’s situation directly with the Spanish Prime Minister, Señor Zapatero, who intervened personally. That intervention resulted in the repatriation of Gary’s body. That was clearly a welcome development for the Dunne family, but it cannot be right that they had to go through three years of heartache before they could bury their son, or that they secured his repatriation only after a vigorous campaign that culminated in the British Prime Minister raising the case with his Spanish counterpart.
Last October, I raised the case with the present Prime Minister, and I was delighted that he agreed to meet Mr and Mrs Dunne. That meeting took place in January this year, when they had the opportunity to raise with him the changes that they wished to see that would ensure that no other family would have to go through what they had been through. They told the Prime Minister about their long-fought struggle and about both the shortcomings that I have described in the Spanish system and the shortcomings in the British consular services, in terms of the support offered to them and other families affected by the loss of a loved one overseas, and in particular in the European Union, which is what we are addressing this evening. It was a positive meeting, and the Prime Minister agreed to address those shortcomings, suggesting that there may be opportunities for a pilot scheme for improved consular services. Mr and Mrs Dunne agreed that their case
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could be used as a test case—an example case—to set up training programmes to ensure that British consular services give sufficient support to British families on the ground, particularly given that those families are themselves victims, as the directive describes them.
As the Secretary of State said, the proposed directive seeks to address the shortcomings in the current 2001 Council framework decision on the standing of victims in criminal proceedings. I know that Members from across the House will be moved by the case of my constituents, Mr and Mrs Dunne, whose treatment throughout the past five years has been truly appalling. An opt-in to the directive would go some way towards ensuring that others do not go through similar experiences in future. Not all the issues that have affected Mr and Mrs Dunne are covered by the draft directive. Some of them relate to United Kingdom policy in practice—I have referred to consular support. Frankly, some of them are challenges for Spain—for Spanish law and Spanish practice on the repatriation of bodies, compensation and access to justice. I will be seeking a meeting with the Spanish ambassador in London to press for Mr and Mrs Dunne’s compensation to be paid in full and immediately.
I welcome the opportunity to share the appalling experience of my constituents Mr and Mrs Dunne with the House this evening and to pay tribute to them for their campaign, their fortitude and how they have turned their grief into something positive, so that other families do not have to go through what they went through. I thank the Government for giving me this opportunity to address this important subject.
9.17 pm
Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) for giving a very moving speech.
I address the Chamber as chairman of the all-party group on retail and business crime, and, by virtue of that, as someone concerned about victims of crime, both at home and abroad. Although there are some parts of our criminal justice system that can clearly be improved on, I understand from the organisation Victim Support—we heard this point earlier, too—that we generally enjoy a better standard of treatment for victims of crime than is the case across Europe. It does not take a huge stretch of the imagination to realise that victims of crime are at their most vulnerable when they are abroad. Perhaps they do not speak the language, and they would probably have little idea of where to go, what to do, or even what processes are in place to assist them in the event of crime. Moreover, many unscrupulous criminals specifically target foreign nationals—tourists in particular—for those very reasons.
In this instance, I feel that EU support would benefit the British abroad, so I call on the Government to support the draft directive in question, which deals with a minimum standard of treatment for victims of crime across Europe. Indeed, it has been carefully argued by the charity Victim Support that the directive would benefit the British at home also. I would not usually back EU interference—the EU meddles in so much that it should not meddle in, plus it is a ridiculous, wasteful organisation and unnecessarily bureaucratic—but in
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this instance it has actually come up with something that should be addressed for the common European good. With regard to offenders’ release dates, the directive would certainly increase the rights of victims in the UK. At present, a victim has the right to know only when an offender has been released from custody in the case of sexual or violent crime where an offender has been sentenced to more than 12 months in custody. The directive would extend that right to all victims.
Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I am listening with great interest to my hon. Friend. I very much applaud and welcome his and the Government’s intent, but does he realise that we could achieve the same end without opting in to this EU directive? We could negotiate a separate arrangement with opt-outs, which would not be available under an EU directive.
Mike Weatherley: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I am afraid that he is sadly mistaken, for various reasons that I shall come to. I agree that the EU quite often meddles unnecessarily, but occasionally some standardisation across Europe is welcome, and this is one of those situations.
I mentioned that our system of victim support is better than those of other countries around Europe, but this position is by no means assured. After all, it has been eroded in several key areas. One is the example of funding for Victim Support—a charity that provides an invaluable service to victims of crime. Its funding has been cut, which is a great shame. Also, over a number of years, we have seen certain crimes such as shoplifting downgraded. Indeed, the Sentencing Commission does not formally recognise the vulnerability of shop workers as particular victims of crime, despite last year being a record period for crimes committed in shops, ranging from shoplifting to murders in the process of robbery. The Government could also do more to support the private sector in schemes such as Facewatch, piloted in London by the Metropolitan police and now spreading across the UK.
Victims of crime currently have the right to receive a basic level of service for each criminal justice agency under the code of practice for victims of crime. Everything that victims are entitled to under the code is pretty basic and the sort of thing that one would assume victims would receive automatically. The Government, however, have already removed the duty on local criminal justice boards to report their compliance with the victims code, which means no one is monitoring compliance with the code or holding agencies to account when they fail to comply with it. There is a danger that the Government will seek to downgrade the code or abolish it altogether. That would mean that a victim of crime would have no statutory right to a decent level of service from the criminal justice system. Abolishing or downgrading the code would be a serious retrograde step that would turn the clock back on victims’ rights.
Mr Kenneth Clarke: I would like to give my hon. Friend an assurance on that in case I forget to reply to his point later. We realise that the code needs modernising, but we do not have the faintest intention of repealing or abolishing it. I can give my hon. Friend that assurance straight away—before some rumour is accidentally set flying.
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Mike Weatherley: I am most grateful to the Secretary of State for that intervention. The point I was trying to make was about the code’s inability to be made legally enforceable when no particular agency is held to account for compliance at the moment. I would like to see it strengthened.
On behalf of all future victims of crime, I urge the Government to support the EU directive on a minimum standard of treatment for victims of crime across Europe.
9.22 pm
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Secretary of State and Lord Chancellor made his point clear at the beginning. He might have been slightly concerned that there would be some kind of Division, but as far as I am concerned, there will be nothing of the kind. To me, this debate is about recognising the fact that this is an important issue. Furthermore, I view it as the job of the European Scrutiny Committee to recommend for debate matters of legal or political importance. Nobody is in any doubt that this is a matter of very considerable importance.
The communication from the European Commission, “Strengthening victims’ rights in the EU”, starts with the question: “Why do victims matter?” Let me give a brief indication of what the European Commission states in this particular context. The communication talks about the many millions of people who fall victim to crime. It notes that about
“30 million crimes against persons or property are recorded annually”
“Crime often affects more than one victim…This leads to a qualified estimate that there is likely to be up to 75 million direct victims of crime every year.”
So in quantitative terms, we are talking about something in the order of 75 million people affected.
Road accidents are also discussed, with a million across the EU mentioned, along with the loss of 30,700 lives in 2010. People are constantly travelling and moving across borders and it notes that about 11.3 million Europeans are residing
“permanently outside their own home country”.
“10% of Europeans have lived and worked abroad during a period of their lives and 13% have gone abroad for education or training.”
The European Commission states:
“These numbers show the importance of ensuring proper, effective action on the rights of those who fall victim to crime or to road accidents, in their own country or while travelling or living abroad.”
“both a cross-border and a domestic problem that calls for EU action.”
It also mentions the impact on women in the European Union.
The Commission describes compensation as one of the basic needs of victims. In a section headed “A specific focus on victims of crime—what do they need?”, it states:
“Many people fall victim to crime in the EU every year”,
“the need to be recognised and treated with respect and dignity”—
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“to be protected and supported; to have access to justice; and to get compensation and restoration.”
On the subject of that compensation and restoration, it states:
“Persons who have suffered harm because of the acts of others often expect to get some form of financial compensation, whether from the State or the offender. Compensation aims at repairing immediate and longer-term financial damage. It may also act as a form of acknowledgement through a symbolic payment.”
“Restorative justice, which is a relatively new concept in criminal proceedings, goes beyond purely financial compensation to focus on the recovery of the victim.”
As Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, I want to explain a little of the background to the four documents that are before us. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) and to my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) for their contributions, to which I listened carefully. I was very moved by what the hon. Gentleman said about the difficulties experienced by the Dunne family.
The documents comprise part of a package that is a recent initiative to bolster the rights afforded and support given to victims in criminal and civil legal proceedings throughout the European Union. Let me add to what the Minister has said by giving the House the European Scrutiny Committee’s summary of each of the documents.
The road map is a statement by member states of how far they intend to implement the Commission’s victims’ package, which is quite far. The draft directive, which is binding on member states when implemented, lays down comprehensive and far-reaching rules governing the rights of victims of crime. As I have said, the Commission’s communication indicates that further legislation on victims’ compensation, and on the law to be applied in cross-border traffic accidents, is in the pipeline. The draft regulation, which is automatically binding on member states once adopted in Brussels, provides for the automatic recognition in all member states of a civil protection order, such as a non-molestation order, granted by a civil court in one member state. A parallel proposal for protection orders granted by criminal courts is also being negotiated, but is not subject to this debate. As I think the Lord Chancellor will confirm, the Government have opted in to that provision.
As we have heard, the draft directive and regulation are subject to the opt-in protocol referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), under which the UK is presumed not to want to be legally bound by them unless it notifies the Commission of the contrary within three months of the publication of the proposals. In the opinion of my Committee, the Government should take into account several factors when making their decision.
First, the Government should consider whether the UK can influence negotiations more successfully once it has opted in, and should weigh that possibility against the chance that it could end up being bound by damaging legislation. Secondly—I think this equally important—they should consider the financial impact of the proposal. However much we may agree that there is a case for compensation in general terms, I am sure that the sheer range, extent and potential cost concern the Government
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particularly, given our current position. Lastly, I repeat that once these obligations are imposed on us, they will necessarily give rise to grave financial implications, and that will be the case across the range of the victims I have identified—as many as 75 million, a figure I put on the record earlier.
There is also the question of whether the proposal will require legislative change in the United Kingdom. The Government’s explanatory memorandum demonstrates that they are broadly in favour of the two legislative proposals but that they need to look at their resource and administrative implications. By contrast, the Government question the need for further legislation on compensating victims. The Secretary of State will, I hope, give us some indication in respect of that before the end of the debate. That is the Government’s position, but I have already indicated the scale, range and extent of what needs to be done.
The European Scrutiny Committee recommended holding this debate for the following reasons: the victims’ package marks a significant changing up of gear in the EU’s policy on victims; the resource and administrative implications for the UK will be substantial, especially with regard to the regulation, as can be seen from pages 27 to 31 of the relevant report; and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hove said, the rights of victims in the UK are currently a matter of concern and, at times, controversy.
Finally, if this needs saying at all, we ask the Government to consider long and hard the views expressed in this debate before deciding whether to opt in.
9.31 pm
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It gives me great pleasure to be able to make a brief contribution about the road map draft directive and draft regulation. The road map includes a package of proposed legislative measures designed to ensure that all 27 member states, especially some of the poorer performing new and southern states, meet minimum standards in providing for the rights of victims of crime. Many states are seeking to put into law existing Council of Europe conventions in this area, which are by and large designed to ensure that any EU citizen who is a victim of crime anywhere in the EU is guaranteed to have their rights met.
I shall follow the example of the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) by referring briefly to a constituency case, as it serves to illustrate why these changes are needed. The case, which I have raised in the House on a number of occasions, relates to Robbie Hughes, who was seriously attacked when on holiday in Malia in Crete, allegedly by British tourists—it is still going through the courts, so I cannot say much more than that. He suffered severe head injuries as a result of the attack. Since then, his mother has been campaigning to ensure that the support available for victims of crime abroad is enhanced. She has done a lot of work, such as by helping the Foreign and Commonwealth Office improve its website and put extra information on it. She has also done a lot of work with travel agents to put pressure on the travel reps to stop encouraging British tourists to go out and get blind drunk by telling them where the cheapest venues
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are for getting the most potent alcohol, with the inevitable consequences in places such as Malia in Crete where, I am afraid, British tourists have a very poor reputation.
Robbie and his mother faced a whole host of issues and problems, with which I am sure the Dunnes, to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, will be very familiar. There is a problem in accessing health care, and people also need to be encouraged to take out insurance. They may think, “I’m safe because I’m going to an EU country,” but the descriptions of health care in Greece suggest that it leaves something to be desired. There are also language issues, and although legal aid is available in Greece, that is not immediately apparent to a British citizen who is sent a form written in Greek. There are translation issues therefore, and there are clearly significant communication issues. Some of them are simple, such as whether the person abroad is able to use their mobile phone and whether, if they clock up a large bill, they will be cut off before having been able to help their loved one abroad.
We also need to address issues relating to the police and the application of different standards. For example, in some countries the police are not willing to register crimes and fail simply to get out of the starting blocks in getting a crime addressed. There are also problems relating to money and to extradition, where a case subsequently does come to court. That is a good example of an area where the European Union has put in place measures to address the situation.
Many of the issues that these two families experienced would benefit greatly from this standardisation of a minimum level of support for victims of crime. During a debate on victim support on 8 June, I expressed reservations about what we are debating tonight, but I did so on the basis of not having a clear appreciation of the extent to which the UK Government had been involved in drawing up the proposal. I also had concerns that the UK’s strong position on supporting victims would be diluted by this approach, but we are clearly setting a minimum standard that other countries can and should go beyond. I also had concerns about whether this approach would place an undue burden on the UK, but it is clear, again, that the UK’s high standards on victim support mean that although the UK Government might have to take some additional steps, they are relatively small in the scheme of things. On that basis, I think that this is a very positive contribution and I hope that the Ministry of Justice will be minded to push it forward swiftly.
9.36 pm
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): I have a similar tale to tell to the one told by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg). I do not wish to go into the precise details, but the case came to me within days of my becoming Member of Parliament for Ipswich and relates to a terrible situation involving a constituent who was murdered by another constituent in Spain. The family were faced with the most appalling series of choices and negotiations to be made with the Spanish authorities. Unfortunately, the family had to deal with Andalusian law as it applied in the Canary islands, which even in Spanish terms is seen as rather arcane.
The process of bringing the body back to the United Kingdom was frustrated by the offender, who had come back to this country. The reason it happened rather
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more quickly than in the case of the hon. Gentleman’s constituent was the European arrest warrant, which made a considerable difference to the speed with which the case could be dealt. That is one good example of the arrest warrant significantly improving things for victims in this country. In a similar manner to the hon. Gentleman's case, although not to the same extent, it took the pulling of strings in Spain by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, by me and by people who really should not have been involved to bring about more speedily the returning of my constituent’s body to the family in Ipswich. That is why the directive will bring about a real improvement for constituents who are faced with such terrible problems.
The problem will get bigger and bigger as more and more people seek to work in the European Union and go on holiday there. As such, as we have heard from the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), acts of violence and drunkenness and situations where constituents might be put before the law will increase. We all know from our casework—even I know from my short time as a Member of Parliament—how constituents in such situations can be distinctly disadvantaged. That can happen with very minor offences and with the most serious and grave.
It is therefore nice that we can come together in this House for the first time in a long time to agree on a new piece of European legislation that every Member believes will be bring an improvement for our constituents. It represents a sharing and pooling of sovereignty which will improve the lives of those whom we seek to represent. I agree with and approve of what the Government are trying to do in this instance. I hope that they will be able to bring the directive to fulfilment as quickly as possible and that its implementation will ensure that those European neighbours who are not so assiduous in their treatment of victims of crime are made to protect and enhance the rights of our constituents as rapidly as possible.
9.40 pm
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Over recent weeks, the treatment of victims and their families has come to the fore in the UK. We have seen the family of Milly Dowler speak about the appalling treatment they received at the hands of defence lawyers acting for Levi Bellfield; we have read the report from the victims commissioner, Louise Casey, about the needs of families bereaved by homicide; and most recently we have been sickened by the revelations that the mobile phones of victims and others have been hacked into by elements of the media for whom the story comes before any sense of morality.
Under the previous Labour Government, great strides forward were made in championing the rights and needs of victims and their families, although we would be the first to admit that there was and is more that could be done. Under Labour, we saw the introduction of the national victims service—an £8 million support scheme for relatives of manslaughter and murder victims that offered victims a dedicated support worker—in response, of course, to the report published by Labour’s first ever victims champion, Sara Payne. As a result, the CPS now has a victim focus scheme committing it to a post-charge and post-conviction meeting for murder, manslaughter and road death cases in the Crown court. There is also a new protocol for Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service for bereaved families and a statutory
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victims code of practice that commits the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, the courts, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, the probation service and others to providing information within certain time scales. The CPS has a prosecutors’ pledge, setting out how Crown prosecutors should conduct the case, and the probation service provides a victim liaison scheme for certain victims of crime or their next of kin as regards some elements of the offender’s movements within the prison estate and release information.
Labour introduced the victim personal statement scheme and the policing pledge, and in April 2010 we launched a £2 million homicide service, with the police allocating a family liaison officer to each family following a homicide or a culpable road death. In January 2010, Labour also introduced the compensation scheme for British victims of terrorism abroad as part of the Crime and Security Act 2010 and declared that it would be retrospective to 2002. I hope that the Lord Chancellor will take on board the fact that it is still to be implemented. All those measures came on top of a cut of 43% in crime, which reduced the likelihood of being a victim of crime.
Although the Government have made the right noises about victims being at the heart of their approach, it is fair to say that they have stumbled a few times: over how legal aid cuts have been targeted, over the changes to remand proposed in the latest justice legislation and over the dropped manifesto commitment on knife crime, for example. Let me be clear that although we will hold the Government to account when we feel they have taken a wrong turn, we will support them when they do the right thing by victims, as they have with the welcome announcement of an additional £500,000 for practical changes following Louise Casey’s report.
For now, we are debating a draft directive from the European Union that gives the Government the opportunity to pick themselves up and show that they can be on the side of the victim. We are considering four things this evening: the draft directive that establishes minimum standards for the rights, support and protection of victims of crime; a draft regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters; a Commission communication on strengthening victims’ rights in the EU; and the explanatory memorandum dated 16 May 2011 to a Council resolution on a road map for strengthening the rights and protection of victims, particularly in criminal proceedings.
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for setting out the Government’s position on those four documents. Let me add to the debate by setting out our view of these important documents and the improvements they could make for all member states. Although the UK leads the way, as the Lord Chancellor said, I think he would also readily accept that more is required of the UK in its treatment of victims of crime.
Let us consider the scale of the issues that challenge us. From Louise Casey’s report on the needs of families bereaved by homicide, we know that the vast majority of victims’ families—more than 80%—have suffered trauma-related symptoms, that three-quarters have suffered depression and that one in every five have become addicted to alcohol. Every person in the survey said that their health had been affected in some way. Some 59% found it difficult to manage their finances following the bereavement and one in four stopped working permanently. The average cost of the homicide to each
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family was £37,000, with costs ranging from those for probate to those for funerals, travel to and from court and even for cleaning up the crime scene. The majority of those people got no help with those costs and some were forced into debt. The victims commissioner’s review shows that such effects persist for many years.
The scale of the issue comes more into focus when we consider that, as the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee said, 30 million crimes against persons or property are recorded each year across the European Union, resulting in about 75 million direct victims of crime every year across the Union. The number of homicides will, thankfully, be only a small proportion of that number, but the impact of any crime on victims will have many of the characteristics I have mentioned, with the most horrendous crimes bringing the hardest burdens of all.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I thank my hon. Friend for giving way as I have not been here for the whole debate. One thing that concerns me and that exacerbates all the problems is the free movement of people within the European Union. If we had borders that were enforced, criminals would not be able to travel so freely through the European Union and individuals going on holiday would be more conscious of the fact that they were going to different jurisdictions with different standards and levels of health protection and be more wary and concerned. Above all, traffickers in human beings, particularly in children, would have a more difficult time if we had internal borders.
Robert Flello: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. He makes his points very well and I will return to some of those issues shortly.
British citizens should receive the highest standards in any member state when they are the victim of a crime. In the draft directive, the European Union has sought to build on the 2001 Council framework decision, which established general minimum standards. The rationale behind it is that the 2001 framework was not implemented across member states in a satisfactory way, with some member states doing more than others—I think the UK can hold its head high in that regard—leaving a patchwork of uneven standards of protection and support for victims. One of the Commission’s conclusions that speaks volumes in the light of the Dowler family’s experience is that
“Member States generally do not ensure that victims are treated in a manner equivalent to that of a party to proceedings.”
The Commission found that there was “ambiguous drafting”, a “lack of concrete obligations” and a “lack of infringement possibilities”.
In the Lord Chancellor’s comments on each of the articles in the draft directive, there are some positives which are very welcome, but there are some less welcome and possibly worrying observations too. The Government straight away use the phrase
“proportionate to the needs of victims”,
but we have seen from the victims commissioner’s recent report that the needs of victims are not being met, so who will judge what is proportionate to the needs of victims? Will it be the Lord Chancellor, his Department or the victims commissioner? Who will decide?
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It is vital that the directive should help to provide greater uniformity across the EU to improve the service that UK citizens can expect. More must be done to ensure that victims’ families do not have to suffer unnecessary delays and further trauma following the loss of a family member abroad. At this point I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) for raising the terrible and tragic issue of Gary Dunne and the work being done by Lesley and Steve Dunne to whom our sympathies must go out. It is also important to raise the cases that were mentioned by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) and by the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), whom I congratulate on his imminent esteemed elevation to the Privy Council. I suspect that we all have examples of such tragedies in our constituencies. For example, a constituent of mine died in Tenerife last year. Again, because of the Spanish coronial system, the victim’s family had to wait months before the body was repatriated to the UK.
I turn to some of the articles. Article 2 is welcome. It sets out the wider impact of a crime beyond the person who has been killed or suffered some immediate injustice. It should not be the subject of detailed clarification. Some clarification is required, but the Government’s comments about the need for clarification are a little troubling.
The first part of article 4 deals with the provision of information to victims. Although the Lord Chancellor says he is confident that this article is generally compatible with current practice across the UK, I wonder just how confident he is about the uniformity and quality of current practice across the UK in the light of the victims commissioner’s report. The second part of article 4 covers the sensitive issue of informing victims of the release of an offender. I agree that we should be mindful of the risks to the offender. We do not want to see lynch mobs at the prison gates, but we also do not want to see victims unexpectedly coming face to face with the offender in a supermarket because no one has forewarned them, as has happened time and again.
I am not sure that in their response to article 9 the Government fully understand how variable is the use of the victim personal statement. I suggest that the Lord Chancellor takes a moment or two to read the strategic audit of the criminal justice system, a report prepared by Victim Support. It makes sombre reading about the use of the victim personal statement. It notes that the police are responsible for offering victims the opportunity to make a statement, but that they are not required to do so by law, and VPSs are not even mentioned in the Government’s primary document setting out the services that the victim can expect.
The report from Victim Support continues:
“The actual situation on the ground is poor—of those whose cases reach court, less than half recall being offered the opportunity to make a VPS. Moreover, of those who did make a VPS, only two-thirds felt it was taken into account. Furthermore, the likelihood of being given the chance to make a VPS varies considerably across England and Wales. For example, victims living in London were less than half as likely to be offered it as those living in Northumbria. The likelihood of the victim feeling that the VPS is taken into account also varies considerably across regions.”
Article 13 deals with the reimbursement of victims’ expenses. Once again, it is concerning that the Government appear to be back-peddling on the concrete commitments that the directive is supposed to require. Once more, we
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must remind ourselves that the victims commissioner’s findings are damning of the cost barriers for victims’ families who want to see justice done. I am hopeful that the Government, despite their heavily caveated words in response to article 19, will take on board the needs of victims to avoid contact with offenders and their families, and thereby avoid the all too frequent situation where a victim’s family sit alongside that of the defendant, listening to them laughing, joking and making hurtful comments.
The Government’s comments on article 20 worry me greatly. Although I have some sympathy with the view that not all victims need necessarily be interviewed, provided that other methods for hearing the voice of victims are strengthened, it feels as though the Lord Chancellor is going behind the term “proportionate” again.
I would like to spend a moment on article 23 and the relationship between the media and the privacy of victims. In much the same way as a few bad apples spoiled the reputation of the House, so the behaviour of irresponsible and, it seems, criminal elements of the media have severely damaged that profession. With reference to Bellfield’s trial, Chief Constable Mark Rowley has called for greater protection of victims and witnesses during court cases. Rowley said it was a
“most bizarre and distressing coincidence”
that the Dowler family had their privacy destroyed at a time when footballers and celebrities were being granted super-injunctions to protect details of their personal lives.
It is all well and good for the Lord Chancellor to ask that article 23 respect the principle of media independence, but at what cost? The case of Milly Dowler shows the need for greater training of professions, notably the judiciary, in how victims’ families are treated. The draft directive is a good starting point, but there are things that are not in it—notably, despite the European Commission's identifying why the 2001 framework failed, where are the teeth in these proposals? Where is the mechanism for effective redress when member states do not provide the services or support that the draft directive requires? Where are the rights to request a review of the decision on what charge the offender will face? The draft directive is an opportunity for the Government to negotiate a better deal for victims at EU level; it should not be used to make what we already do look like it fits with the directive as it is written.
Turning to the draft regulation on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters, it can only be a positive thing that civil law protection measures issued in one member state should be recognised and applied in another, so the draft regulation is to be welcomed. I note that the European Scrutiny Committee has its reservations about safeguarding the rights of the person subject to the order as well as the person who has requested it, and although I fully understand the need to give the person subject to the order the opportunity to safeguard their rights, I have concerns about how any such safeguarding could be applied.
For example, if the person with a civil law protection measure goes on an extended holiday or goes to work in another European country for a year, would the person subject to the order need to know when and where? The regulation as drafted seems already to provide adequately,
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through the certification process, that an existing measure can be recognised and applied throughout the Union within the limits of the original application. Indeed, the fundamental rights safeguard at article 10 and, of course, the rights of the person subject to the order at the time it was applied for seem more than adequate, but I look forward to hearing from right hon. and hon. Members if they think otherwise on this point. I am pleased that the Secretary of State, in his explanatory memorandum dated 2 June, seems to welcome this regulation.
I will turn now to the council resolution on the road map. The road map essentially shows how both the draft directive and the draft regulation fit into an overall scheme for improving the EU’s approach to victims’ rights. Given the reasons why the Commission felt that the 2001 framework failed, it is a little sad to see the Government seeking to press for less detailed measures on how the victims directive can be brought into effect. The European Scrutiny Committee, in putting forward the document for debate on the Floor of the House, asked the Government to provide more information on the probable substance of each measure that the Commission is to propose as part of the road map.
I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for welcoming this evening’s debate and recognise that the Government have provided a good explanation of their views in the memorandum, but sadly we seem to be lacking the additional detail this evening that the Committee requested. That point is worth repeating: the European Scrutiny Committee, in putting forward the document for debate on the Floor of the House, asked the Government to provide more information on the substance of each of the measures that the Commission is to propose. I am not sure whether the Lord Chancellor intends to provide that when he winds up—I can only hope.
A good place to begin my concluding remarks on the matters before us is the question of how the Commission’s proposals compare with the victims law for homicide cases proposed by Louise Casey. The victims commissioner has addressed the situation in the UK in homicide cases, and to my mind that is a good benchmark for what we should expect for all victims across the EU. The victims commissioner believes that a victims law should make it clear that the coroner will release the body to the family for burial within 28 days, unless exceptional circumstances apply. The proposals before us do not mention that at all, and yet we have heard from right hon. and hon. Members this evening that this is one of the fundamental issues that they feel passionately about and that affects constituents up and down the country time and again. In my humble opinion the Government are plain wrong in their stubborn refusal to implement the position of the chief coroner, and I hope that when they are made to see sense, they will also ensure that the chief coroner addresses this distressing issue and that such measures will be raised with the Commission in negotiations on the road map.
The victims commissioner also believes that the police should legally have to keep families updated at each stage of the investigation, and I believe that the draft directive addresses that key point. It must not be watered down in negotiations. Similarly, Louise Casey believes that a police protocol should be put in place for reviewing cases that remain unsolved and that it should set out clearly how and when families are to be consulted and
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kept updated. Again, although not part of the draft directive or road map, that is clearly an area that the Lord Chancellor’s Department should raise with the Commission.
Another point made by the victims commissioner is that families should have the right to information from the Crown Prosecution Service, and to meet the CPS lawyer at key stages of the process, including on conviction or acquittal, and on appeal. That is covered by the draft directive, and should be strongly pursued. Those needs are addressed in the draft directive, but they should be enshrined in law, with the right of redress when not met.
In conclusion, the Opposition welcome the Commission’s approach, and urge the Government not to procrastinate or seek to gain wriggle room, but to embrace the opportunity to turn the page on their recent errors of judgment, and give their approval to measures that should ensure that victims of crime across the European Union have at the very least a minimum standard on which they can rely.
10 pm
Mr Kenneth Clarke: It is a long time since I have taken part in a debate on the Floor of the House on any European subject that was completely free of any controversy. [ Interruption. ] Certain Members were not here. We all congratulate the Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee, the hon. Member for Stafford, on selecting the measure for debate, because we all agree on the great importance of giving better protection to victims of crime, not only in this country but across the European Union.
Mr Cash: I am sorry to have to remind my right hon. and learned Friend that, in fact, I am now the hon. Member for Stone. It was during the Maastricht debates that I was the hon. Member for Stafford.
Mr Clarke: I will not weigh up the issue of whether Stafford has lost or gained, or whether Stone has benefited or been deprived, but I enjoyed the debates on the Maastricht treaty. We were not quite as close on that occasion as we are on the directive.
This is an extremely important subject, and there is general agreement that the framework agreement of 2001 is not adequate and should be improved, which is the objective of the Commission’s documents. The proposals have received extremely widespread support, and were movingly supported by Members whose constituents had been adversely affected. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) cited the case of Mr and Mrs Dunne, and a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) was murdered in Spain. The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) discussed difficulties that he had encountered. As I said at the beginning of our debate, we are trying to raise European standards on the issue because many British citizens go abroad and their families would benefit if minimum standards—and we hope very adequate standards—were in place throughout all member countries.
It was claimed that that could be achieved by bilateral agreements with other member states. With respect, I do not think that that is practicable. The notion that
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bilateral agreements have to be negotiated with 26 EU member states, where the tradition of supporting victims is variable and in some cases far below that in the UK, is not the best way to proceed. I was urged by other speakers to support the Commission and the Hungarian presidency’s Budapest declaration to see what we can do to strengthen support for everyone.
Reference was made to the work of Louise Casey, the victims commissioner, who shares the views of my hon. Friends and of the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby about the importance of considering the problems experienced by bereaved families. Victim Support, the biggest organisation in the field of victim support, supports the proposed directive, and it has urged the Government to take a constructive approach to it. It was said that its funding had been cut, but we have responded to the opinions expressed by the victims commissioner. We need to make sure that specialist, targeted support is available for vulnerable victims. Many hon. Members have been victims of crime—probably, almost everyone—but people do not always need counselling and support afterwards. Bereaved families, however, are a particular concern of Louise Casey, who has produced a report on the subject. We have given extra support to specialist services for bereaved families and victims of rape and sexual assault. More targeted support is required. We have a code of practice in this country that also needs to be revised and improved in the light of experience, and everybody is pressing in the same direction on that.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) was pretty supportive of the proposals before us. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), he talked particularly about protection orders. The idea of mutual recognition of protection orders throughout the European Union is very valuable. These orders are usually given when someone is being harassed, often by a husband, partner or spouse with a history of domestic violence. If we do not have mutual recognition of the orders, the consequence is that every time anybody travels in Europe, they are obliged to try to get a fresh court order in the area where they are then living and give evidence again about the same experiences. Where possible, we should support this move. We have already opted into the criminal law directive on the subject, and we will do so on the civil order once we have scrutinised it to make sure that the two will work together and that particular burdens are not put on us.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stone talked about the possible resource and administrative implications for this country. I do not see any insuperable problems in the proposals, but we will obviously have to scrutinise them in detail because we cannot accept unnecessary extra resources or administrative burdens being demanded of us. That is highly unlikely because we are so far ahead in the field compared with most other member states, but we will bear that concern in mind.
Mr Clarke: I will give way one last time.
Mr Cash: Will my right hon. and learned Friend also bear in mind the severe criticisms, most of which are entirely justified, about our moving generally towards a compensation culture?