5 Sep 2011 : Column 123
5 Sep 2011 : Column 124
5 Sep 2011 : Column 125
The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83E).
5 Sep 2011 : Column 126
Amendment made: 9, page 7, line 16, at end insert—
‘(3A) An application under subsection (2) must be made in writing.
(3B) The Secretary of State may by notice request the provision, within such period of time as the notice may specify, of further information from the individual in connection with an application under subsection (2).
(3C) The Secretary of State is not required to consider an application further unless any information requested under subsection (3B) is provided in accordance with the notice mentioned in that subsection.’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Amendment made: 10, page 8, line 3, after ‘notice”)’ insert ‘at any time’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Amendment made: 11, page 11, line 41, at end insert—
‘(4) Subject to subsection (5), this section does not require a report to be made in relation to any time which falls after the Secretary of State’s TPIM powers have expired or been repealed under section (Expiry and repeal of TPIM powers), except for the period of 28 days referred to in section (Expiry and repeal of TPIM powers: supplementary provision)(2).
(5) If the Secretary of State’s TPIM powers are revived under section (Expiry and repeal of TPIM powers)—
(a) the reference in subsection (1)(a) above to the month in which this Act is passed is to be read as a reference to the month in which the revival takes effect; and
(b) this section applies accordingly.’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Amendments made: 12, page 12, line 12, leave out from beginning to ‘before’ in line 13 and insert
‘On receiving a report under subsection (4), the Secretary of State must lay a copy of it’.
Amendment 13, page 12, line 17, at end insert—
‘(7) Subject to subsection (8), this section does not require a review to be carried out in relation to any time which falls after the Secretary of State’s TPIM powers have expired or been repealed under section (Expiry and repeal of TPIM powers), except for the period of 28 days referred to in section (Expiry and repeal of TPIM powers: supplementary provision)(2).
(8) If the Secretary of State’s TPIM powers are revived under section (Expiry and repeal of TPIM powers), the independent reviewer must carry out a review of the operation of this Act in respect of—
(i) begins when the revival takes effect, and
(ii) ends with the end of the calendar year in which the revival takes effect; and
(b) each subsequent calendar year.
(9) In such a case, this section and the other provisions of this Act apply as if references to a review under subsection (2) were references to a review under subsection (8).’.—(James Brokenshire.)
5 Sep 2011 : Column 127
Amendments made: 14, page 12, line 31, after ‘conviction’ insert
‘in England and Wales or Northern Ireland’.
Amendment 15, page 12, line 32, at end insert—
‘(c) on summary conviction in Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both.’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Amendment proposed: 20, page 15, line 41, leave out from ‘Act’ to end of line and insert
‘will come into force the day after the Home Secretary reports to Parliament to confirm that paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) below have been complied with—
(a) no later than one month after the day on which this Act is passed, the Senior National Co-ordinator for Counter-terrorism will produce a report to the Home Secretary detailing the additional required resources (“required resources”) that will be needed to manage the increased risks arising from the repeal of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 and the passing of this Act;
(b) no later than two months after the day on which this Act is passed the Home Secretary will agree with the Senior National Co-ordinator for Counter-terrorism the required resources under paragraph (a) and the timetable for such required resources becoming deployable for use in implementing and managing measures relating to TPIM notices;
(c) this Act cannot come into force until the required resources as agreed under paragraph (b) above are made available and ready for deployment.’.—(Shabana Mahmood.)
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The House divided:
Ayes 210, Noes 311.
[9.15 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Clark, Katy
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Mr Wayne
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Field, rh Mr Frank
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hood, Mr Jim
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jamieson, Cathy
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shuker, Gavin
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Graham Jones and
Lyn Brown
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Durkan, Mark
Edwards, Jonathan
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Grant, Mrs Helen
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Huppert, Dr Julian
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leslie, Charlotte
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lucas, Caroline
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McCrea, Dr William
McDonnell, John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Weir, Mr Mike
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wishart, Pete
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mark Hunter and
Bill Wiggin
Question accordingly negatived.
5 Sep 2011 : Column 128
5 Sep 2011 : Column 129
5 Sep 2011 : Column 130
5 Sep 2011 : Column 131
Amendments made: 16, page 16, line 7, leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) and insert—
‘(1) The Secretary of State may impose restrictions on the individual in relation to the residence in which the individual resides.
(2) The Secretary of State may, in particular, impose any of the following—
(a) a requirement to reside at a specified residence;
(b) a requirement to give notice to the Secretary of State of the identity of any other individuals who reside (or will reside) at the specified residence;
(c) a requirement, applicable overnight between such hours as are specified, to remain at the specified residence.’.
Amendment 17, page 16, line 30, after ‘locality’ insert ‘in the United Kingdom’.
Amendment 18, page 17, line 3, leave out sub-paragraphs (7) to (9) and insert—
‘(7) A requirement of the kind mentioned in sub-paragraph (2)(c) must include provision to enable the individual to apply for the permission of the Secretary of State to be away from the specified residence, for the whole or part of any applicable period, on one or more occasions.
(8) The Secretary of State may grant such permission subject to either or both of the following conditions—
(a) the condition that the individual remains overnight at other agreed premises between such hours as the Secretary of State may require;
(b) the condition that the individual complies with such other restrictions in relation to the individual’s movements whist away from the specified residence as are so required.
(9) “Agreed premises” are premises in the United Kingdom which are agreed by the Secretary of State and the individual.
(10) Sub-paragraph (8) is not to be read as limiting—
5 Sep 2011 : Column 132
(a) the generality of sub-paragraph (7) of paragraph 13 (power to impose conditions when granting permission), or
(b) the power to impose further conditions under that sub-paragraph in connection with permission granted by virtue of sub-paragraph (7) of this paragraph.
(11) In sub-paragraph (7) “applicable period” means a period for which the individual is required to remain at the specified residence by virtue of a requirement of the kind mentioned in sub-paragraph (2)(c).’.—(James Brokenshire.)
Amendment made: 19, page 30, line 19, leave out ‘56’ and insert ‘56(1), (2) and (4)’.—(James Brokenshire.)
9.28 pm
James Brokenshire: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I would like to begin by thanking the right hon. and hon. Members who sat on the Public Bill Committee. I can genuinely say that it was one of the best Public Bill Committees that I have been involved in. The Bill underwent tough and detailed scrutiny. There was active participation and there were excellent contributions from both sides. I am sure Members who sat on the Committee will agree that it was lively and robust, but good natured. That is when Parliament excels and does its job properly. The Public Bill Committee certainly did that.
The Committee benefited from the considerable knowledge and expertise of several Members including my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) and the right hon. Members for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) and for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). I am grateful for the contributions of those Members and other Members of the Committee to this debate. I also thank the Chairmen of the Committee and the officials, Officers and staff of the House who enabled the Committee’s work to take place. We have had a full and detailed discussion of this important piece of legislation on Report, with many excellent contributions from all parts of the House.
We have made it clear from the outset that we are committed to prosecuting and deporting terrorists wherever possible and that our starting point will always be that terrorists should be behind bars. I know that that is the position of everyone in the House. We recognise, however, that there are likely, for the foreseeable future, to be a small number of individuals who we believe are involved in terrorism but whom we cannot successfully prosecute or deport. The purpose of the Bill is to put in place the measures needed to deal with them.
The Government have thought long and hard about what legislation is needed. We conducted a comprehensive and detailed review of all the key counter-terrorism powers, including control orders. As a result of that review, we concluded that control orders were not properly targeted and not entirely effective, and that they should be replaced with the system of prevention and investigation measures that is set out in the Bill.
5 Sep 2011 : Column 133
The Bill includes all the measures that we believe are necessary to deal with those we cannot prosecute or deport, including an overnight residence requirement; a travel measure allowing the banning of overseas travel without permission; measures restricting individuals from entering particular areas or places; an electronic communications device measure that will restrict the individual’s ability to use communications devices; and a financial services measure that will allow individuals to be limited to only one bank account, for which they will have to provide statements. The transfer of money and goods overseas without prior permission could also be prohibited.
The Bill also includes an association measure, under which a list of prohibited associates would be provided to the individual in advance, with the possibility that advance notice might be required for meeting other individuals; a reporting measure that would require the individual to report to a particular police station at a particular time; and a monitoring measure that would require the individual to co-operate with arrangements, including electronic tagging, to monitor their movements, communications, and other activities.
The Bill includes additional safeguards, including an increase in the threshold for the imposition of a TPIM notice from reasonable suspicion of involvement in terrorism-related activity to reasonable belief, and a two-year overall time limit for a TPIM notice. We believe that TPIMs, together with the significant extra resources that are being given to the police and Security Service for covert investigation, strike the right balance between robust measures to protect the public and the protection of civil liberties.
I do not intend to go over the issues that we discussed in detail on Report, but I wish to say something about the draft Enhanced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill, which we published for pre-legislative scrutiny on 1 September. Some have claimed that publishing it means that the Government have made some sort of U-turn, and that we are trying to reintroduce more stringent powers through the back door. That is absolutely not the case.
The review of counter-terrorism and security powers that was announced on 26 January made it clear that additional restrictive measures may be required in exceptional circumstances, and that we would produce draft legislation to cover such a situation. That is exactly what we have done. We do not believe it is necessary to have those additional measures in the current Bill, and we sincerely hope that they will never be required, but we think it is right to have the draft legislation available should there be exceptional circumstances that require it, and that Parliament should have the chance to consider it in detail now.
The Government believe that the approach that the Bill sets out is the right one. It protects the public and civil liberties, it is both robust and fair and I commend it to the House.
9.33 pm
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): I join the Minister in commending those who have participated in the debates both in Committee and in the House today. This debate has been serious and important, and we have heard considerable expertise from all parts of the House in the discussions that have taken place.
5 Sep 2011 : Column 134
Counter-terror policies are extremely important. They are vital to public safety, so our approach is, wherever possible, to seek to support the Government in their counter-terror policy. However, tonight we cannot. We cannot vote for the Bill because we do not believe it is the right thing to do for our national security. We do not take that decision lightly, but we are afraid that the Government are taking unnecessary risks with national security and public safety by introducing the Bill, and we do not believe that Parliament should support that approach tonight.
Control orders are not desirable but, sadly, they are needed. That is why they were introduced. However, the Bill, in its response to control orders, raises some serious problems: it weakens counter-terror protection in important ways; it weakens the safeguards—the checks and balances—that are needed to prevent abuse; it does not live up to the promises that were made about it; and it creates a shambolic legislative process and legal framework that will make it harder, not easier, for the police and the security services to do their job and keep us safe.
From the start, concerns were raised that the Bill was simply a fudge. Control orders are being replaced with something very similar. Curfews are being replaced with overnight residence requirements, and restrictions on movement and communications are being replaced with prescriptions on movement and communications. However, in key areas, the Bill weakens the powers of the Home Secretary to deal with very difficult cases.
My hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) and for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) set out in Committee a series of our concerns and tabled amendments. Today we heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) set out his concerns and very powerfully speak to amendments on additional measures. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) spoke to amendments on relocation, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) spoke of specific Opposition security concerns. That is particularly important in Olympic year.
I shall focus particularly on our concerns about relocation—they were discussed on Report, but they are fundamental on Third Reading. In some cases, the courts, the security services and this Home Secretary have agreed that the power to relocate someone to prevent terrorist activity is needed and justified. In May this year, just four months ago, the Home Secretary argued in the case of CD that he needed to be removed from Greater London to protect the public from a terrorist attack. The judge said:
“I have concluded that the relocation obligation is a necessary and proportionate measure to protect the public from the risk of what is an immediate and real risk of a terrorist attack.”
That was just four months ago, but now the Home Secretary believes that those powers are not needed. What has really changed since May?
In July of this year, just two months ago, the Home Secretary said in the case of BM that relocation outside London was “fundamental” to preventing terrorist activity. In that case, BM admitted that he was committed to terrorism. The Home Secretary now believes that those powers are not needed. Again, what has really changed since July?
5 Sep 2011 : Column 135
Ministers claim that they will put more surveillance in place, but the Met expert on this, when giving evidence to the Public Bill Committee, said:
“To get the resources that we anticipate we need will take more than a year, in terms of being able to get people trained and to get the right equipment.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 9, Q27.]
It is simply not credible that the security environment has changed so substantially in the past two or four months that the powers were needed then but are not needed now. Are the Government really telling us—in Olympic year, of all years—that the powers are less needed in the coming year than they were last year, when this Home Secretary has felt that she needed to use them five times?
Ministers have conceded that the powers could be needed, but they are promising only emergency legislation to solve the problem. However, that is a deeply disorderly and shambolic response. It is not fair on the police or security services—or, ultimately, on the public—to say, as the Minister has today, that the Government cannot tell us in what circumstances the emergency legislation will be passed. When pressed, he suggested that it might be passed in the case of multiple threats or in the wake of a terrorist attack, but neither circumstance applied in the cases of CD or BM, when the Home Secretary decided that the powers to relocate were needed.
Ministers know that it is hard to predict how long primary legislation will take, even when there is an imminent threat. The Joint Committee on the emergency legislation, which the Home Secretary set up, concluded that it was a flawed response to difficult counter-terror situations. That is not the way to set a stable framework for our security services to operate, and removing powers in one Bill and promising to reinstate them in unspecified circumstances is a chaotic way to treat Parliament.
While the Government are weakening the counter-terror powers, however, they are at the same time weakening the safeguards, the checks and balances and the parliamentary oversight. Our view is that we need strong powers but also strong checks and balances, so the Government are wrong to remove the annual vote and recourse to Parliament. These powers should be treated as exceptional, not routine. If Parliament is prepared for such powers to be used, as I believe it should be, it should also be prepared and required to reflect on those exceptional powers each year, rather than waiting until 2017. Indeed, the Liberal Democrats should reflect carefully on what they have really achieved in this process, because if this emergency legislation is passed, not only will we be back where we started—round the Houses, through two new laws and back again—but we will have restored all the same security powers, but with fewer checks and balances in place than we had when we started with control orders.
Instead of amending or withdrawing the Bill in the face of these problems, the Government have tied themselves in knots because they are still in thrall to their irresponsible pre-election promises. Legislation that began as a political fudge now looks more like treacle. This is not a responsible approach to national security, and nor is it a responsible approach to Parliament. I hope that the decisions that the Home Secretary and the House are taking tonight
5 Sep 2011 : Column 136
do not prove dangerous, but on the basis of the evidence and expert advice that we have, the Opposition do not believe that it is right to take the risk. We will not be supporting the Bill on Third Reading tonight.
Mr Speaker: Order. There are five Members seeking to catch my eye. I know that they are perfectly capable of doing the arithmetic for themselves.
9.43 pm
Richard Fuller: Unlike the shadow Home Secretary, many of us regard this as a lost opportunity to put behind us legislation that is a scar on our constitutional and judicial structures. References have been made to 9/11, which we will be remembering this Sunday. I was in New York on that day, and the memory is still visceral. The event has unleashed a decade of sometimes good, sometimes poorly thought through legislative responses to real and apparent and sometimes not-so-real threats. Over the years, there has been growing opposition to some of those more extreme measures—the push for 90 days’ detention without trial, the preamble to the Iraq war, with the promotion of non-plots, such as the ricin plot, and the sexing up of dossiers as a basis for our going to war, and of course the control orders. These are all part of an approach to the control of terror that says there is never enough doubt.
This is not a point of balance. We need to have a balance for the rights of all people in this country, and one of the most sacred rights is the right to a free and fair trial. That opportunity has been lost today, but I believe that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has done her best to have a thorough and meaningful review of the measures that the Government consider appropriate for the times. This is not a mere nod-through of legislation. The debate has been robust.
Hazel Blears: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Richard Fuller: Very briefly, yes.
Hazel Blears: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I know that he does not have much time. These are obviously incredibly difficult issues for anybody to determine. What would he do with the handful of people for whom prosecution is not an effective route—because of the need to safeguard intelligence—and who cannot be deported or taken through the criminal justice system, but who pose a significant threat to the safety of the decent, law-abiding people in our country?
Richard Fuller:
That is an interesting challenge. I will be brief. I simply would not accept the premise that we cannot take them through the criminal justice system. The whole thrust of my perspective is that we should always seek to do that. That is what I would try to persuade Governments of all hues to do. When people, of any hue, get to the Front Bench, they always have access to more information than the rest of us. It is hard for the Executive branch ever to give up counter-terrorism powers, because they would face the sort of challenge that we have heard from the Opposition Front Bench this evening—that perhaps there is some risk or that someone will be caught out as a result of the changes. However, it was always a risk that something could go wrong, even under control orders. The reason it is
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wrong to give such powers exclusively to the Executive and why they should rightly be in the hands of the judiciary is that the judiciary can make a fair, non-political response to the matters of fact before it.
However, that opportunity has been lost. We shall again have to go through secret evidence, secret hearings, special advocates and no access for the suspect to the evidence against them. I trust our Home Secretary in her review, as many other hon. Members have said they do. We trust that she has done this for balance, and we hope that she is right. However, let me end with a quotation by Shami Chakrabarti of Liberty, which has been strongest in its opposition to the legislation:
“But under that Act”—
“you are heading for a charge…It may be a long process…but at least you can stand outside the Old Bailey saying, ‘Justice has been done’…The problem with these administrative, shadowy, quasi-judicial systems is that they potentially go on for ever and you never know why.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; c. 50, Q137.]
We will put this Bill to a vote this evening, and I am sure that the Government will succeed. We will review the position again in five years and hopefully lose this part of our legislation.
9.46 pm
Paul Goggins: I thank the Minister for his generous remarks about right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches. In return, let me say that whatever differences we have had—and we have had a few, in Committee and again today—he has been courteous, generous, thoughtful and constructive throughout. I thank him for that. Indeed, it is quite ironic that Opposition Members keep arguing that he and the Home Secretary should be trusted more. It is Members on the Government Benches who do not seem to want to do that.
When the Bill was first published and when we debated it on Second Reading, some commentators described it as “control orders lite”. Many comments were made to that effect and, indeed, on close examination much of the wording in the Bill appears—shall we say?—to be very similar to the wording of the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005. However, it has become absolutely clear in our debates that there are substantial differences between us in relation to the two-year limit, relocation, which has been debated again today, access to telephones and crucially—this is increasingly important—the timing of the commencement of the Bill’s provisions. We in the Opposition have tried through amendments to make constructive suggestions.
Let me say that party advantage in this case is cast aside, and I know that the Minister understands and believes that. This is about protecting the public: that is the only thing that motivates me and my right hon. and hon. Friends to get the legislation right. However, I now fear that the Government are in the worst of all places, because in publishing the detailed draft legislation last week they conceded that the provisions in the Bill that we are now debating are not sufficient in certain circumstances. There may be circumstances where the enhanced powers would be required, yet because primary legislation would be required to bring them into force, the hands of the Home Secretary are tied. Time is crucial, and my right hon. and hon. Friends and I would certainly want to give the Home Secretary those powers,
5 Sep 2011 : Column 138
so that she can use them when she judges that to be appropriate. I hope that further consideration in the other place will lead to at least some changes, so that the Home Secretary is empowered to protect the nation rather than having her hands tied behind her back.
I would caution hon. Members on pre-legislative scrutiny, because, as I told the Minister earlier, I was on the Committee that considered the draft legislation for pre-charge detention. That Committee came to a unanimous view—that such legislation is unsatisfactory and unreliable —but apart from one concession, I do not think that it found a listening ear among Ministers.
Let me finish. I have paid tribute to the way in which the Minister has conducted these debates, but surely he must find it at least ironic, if nothing else, that two days after we completed consideration of the detail of the Bill in Committee the Home Secretary wrote to the court in the case of BM to say that a relocation condition was essential. Thank goodness she was successful and the judge found in her favour. Relocation may be necessary on occasions; it should be in the Bill, as should the other measures I have mentioned.
9.49 pm
Dr Huppert: On Second Reading, I said that I supported clause 1 wholeheartedly, but that I had reservations about clauses 2 onwards. I feel exactly the same now. We still have the same problems in that Executive power is being used and that it is outside our legal system. I wholeheartedly disagree with the approach being taken by the Opposition. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe), has said, astonishingly:
“Unfortunately, there are times when people have to be outside the legal framework.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Public Bill Committee, 23 June 2011; c. 57.]
I find that absolutely horrific. It is possible to do all this within a legal framework, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) has said. In Committee, I tabled amendments on police bail. I proposed a different model on Report, but unfortunately we did not have an opportunity to discuss it. They were slightly different models—the details were different—but they showed that there is a way forward, and that we can find a normal, legal way of pursuing this process.
I do not welcome TPIMs—I certainly do not welcome enhanced TPIMs—but they are a step forward. I thank the Government for taking that step. It is rare for me to quote the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who on Second Reading used an interesting phrase on which hon. Members might wish to reflect. He argued:
“The coalition is simply giving in to Lib-Dem pressure for this Bill to comply with the Human Rights Act”.—[Official Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 69.]
I am delighted to agree with him on this occasion, although I think that Ministers are actually a bit more sympathetic than he gave them credit for.
The Bill is an improvement. We have already heard Opposition Members describe the benefits that it will bring compared with control orders. Relocation will go. There will be no more internal exile, although there will be some judicial oversight. That move was opposed by the Opposition—or, at least, by the majority of Labour Members; there were some honourable exceptions. Curfews are over, but again that move was opposed by the
5 Sep 2011 : Column 139
Opposition. The proposals involve time limits. Nobody will be able to be held indefinitely; there will be a two-year maximum. Again, the Opposition tabled amendments to enable people to be held for longer. People will have regulated access to phones and computers, but again that was opposed by Labour. Those measures will allow people who have not been convicted of any offence to have a semblance of normal life. The Leader of the Opposition has admitted that Labour made errors over civil liberties, but it is clear that his party has not listened to him and has not learned from its mistakes.
The Bill represents a small step forward, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. The addition of the sunset clause makes it a step forward that I am willing to take, and I am delighted—not overjoyed; that would be overstating it—that we can take steps towards improving our civil liberties. I will vote for the Bill tonight.
9.52 pm
Mr McFadden: I believe that the Bill is based on a fundamentally mistaken premise—that liberty in our country was undermined by laws passed by the previous Labour Government in their efforts to protect the public and to combat terrorism. We have heard the Minister advance that argument many times during the debate. It is not, however, the laws passed by the last Labour Government that threaten liberty. Liberty is threatened by the ideology that fed the bombers of the London underground, by the acts that they took part in, by plots including those of the shoe bomber and the underpants bomber, as well as by other plots that have mercifully either not worked or been foiled before they reached fruition.
Both parties in the coalition have in different degrees shared in that fundamentally mistaken premise, and they have now brought it into the Government as the foundation for this Bill. I wonder whether, if we were talking about this in a year or two’s time, the Government would still introduce such a Bill. I genuinely do not know the answer to that. What we have here is a mistaken premise giving us wrong policy that will lead to increased risk for the public. The Bill will give new rights to terrorist suspects. It will allow them freedom of movement. It will grant them access to mobile phones and the internet. It will also put a two-year time limit on even the weakened provisions that TPIMs represent.
Mr Ellwood: I want to challenge the right hon. Gentleman’s point that any form of legislation could prevent a terrorist attack. If someone is convinced that that is what they want to do, wherever they are based in the UK and however they communicate, and whether they target the Olympics or somewhere else, they will conduct that attack, and possibly kill themselves as well. No legislation that we create in this House can prevent that. It is wrong to mislead the House and to suggest that we can somehow over-legislate or protect ourselves by what we do here. We cannot do that.
Mr McFadden:
If that is what the hon. Gentleman believes, he should vote against the Bill because the Minister is pretending that this offers some measure of protection. These measures not only put the public at increased risk, but put the police and security services
5 Sep 2011 : Column 140
under increased pressure at the very time that their budgets are being cut. They mean less control and more surveillance. Surveillance itself compromises liberty, but does so simply in a more expensive and riskier way than some of the extra powers that the Government have chosen to reject.
To cap it all, in recent days we have seen the spectacle of the Government taking out an insurance policy against their own Bill by publishing draft emergency legislation but then refusing to add the powers to this Bill. The Government have failed utterly in today’s debate to specify the circumstances under which that insurance policy will be used. It is hard to escape the conclusion that my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) eloquently reached in her speech—that trade-offs within the coalition have shaped this policy. That is not good enough. We should not compromise the safety of our citizens on that basis. I echo the hope and prayer of my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary that none of the terrorist suspects who are granted increased freedoms under the Bill use them to kill innocent people. I have to say in all sincerity that if they do, the public will not forgive the Ministers or the Government who have passed this measure tonight.
9.56 pm
Bob Stewart: There is little time, so I shall try to put my speech in bullet point form. I have no problem with TPIMs being called “control orders lite”. I believe we should think of evolution in security and I certainly think that we should look at experience.
I do not think terrorists will be able to get away with terrorist acts when they are under investigation. I used to watch them in Northern Ireland, but they could not do anything once we had them under proper surveillance. If they are really innocent, they can always fully co-operate with the Government and get off a TPIM, control order or whatever as soon as possible.
The threat comes from unknown people. We all know that, as all these attacks have come from people whom the security services have not been able to identify.
I had a big problem with relocation, but I was reassured by what the Minister said about enhanced TPIMs—that we could do something about the matter quite quickly. I do not think that we have by any means reached a definitive solution as yet. We are in an evolutionary process. No one likes control orders, TPIMs or anything like them, but we do not have any choice.
The threat will change over time and our reaction to it will have to change over time. We will revisit many times in future the problem of what to do with people who want to destroy our people.
Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The House divided:
Ayes 297, Noes 221.
[9.58 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mr Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Grant, Mrs Helen
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Huppert, Dr Julian
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Long, Naomi
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McCrea, Dr William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Robin
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Bill Wiggin and
Mark Hunter
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Clark, Katy
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Mr Wayne
Davies, Geraint
Davis, rh Mr David
De Piero, Gloria
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Field, rh Mr Frank
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hood, Mr Jim
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jamieson, Cathy
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Graham Jones and
Lyn Brown
Question accordingly agreed to.
5 Sep 2011 : Column 141
5 Sep 2011 : Column 142
5 Sep 2011 : Column 143
5 Sep 2011 : Column 144
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed, with amendments.
Business without Debate
Delegated legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft International Renewable Energy Agency (Legal Capacities) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 8 June, be approved.—(Mr Newmark.)
5 Sep 2011 : Column 145
Waste and Recycling (Spelthorne)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.)
10.13 pm
Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am especially pleased to address this matter under your direction, Mr Speaker, as it is very important for my constituents. The issue that the debate will focus on is localism—the localism philosophy, as it were—and more specifically the question of the extent to which county councils in a two-tier system should be allowed to overrule the will of borough councils and a significant degree of popular opinion within a particular borough.
As many Members will know, I am the Member of Parliament for a borough: the borough of Spelthorne. It is coterminous with the parliamentary constituency, which is a rare thing in our House of Commons. I am therefore very grateful to the Minister for making time to respond to some of the issues I wish to raise. I hope he can elucidate some of the Government’s ideas about localism, with particular regard to waste disposal and recycling policy.
A waste and recycling centre is to be built in the south-east of my constituency, in the midst of two densely populated residential areas: Upper Halliford and Charlton village. More than 41,000 people live within a two-mile radius of the proposed site. Many issues have been raised in the debate, with those on one side of it saying that the technology is essential. However, it is my job as the Member of Parliament to articulate some of the concerns that many of my constituents have about the proposed facility.
A community recycling centre and a waste transfer facility already occupy part of the site, on which waste has been managed since the late 1940s. The new development, planned by SITA, would involve the construction of an additional anaerobic digestion plant to dispose of Surrey’s food waste. Most worryingly to many constituents, it would impose on the constituency a gasification chamber for the treatment of household waste. This would triple the size of the existing 4.5 hectare facility and would, most people agree, consume what is left of the adjoining green belt.
People across the constituency and across the political divide have expressed considerable dismay at this proposal, and a great deal of community spirit and co-operation has been shown in opposition to it. People have put aside political allegiances and have come together to oppose the county council’s proposal. A dedicated group of residents from in and around Charlton and Halliford have set up “Spelthorne against the Eco Park”, and I am very interested in their arguments and wish to ventilate some of their concerns. Many other people from residents associations in neighbouring towns such as Sunbury, Shepperton and Kempton have campaigned against these developments.
Spelthorne borough council, which is in charge of Spelthorne, has responded to people’s concerns, as opposed to Surrey county council, which is one tier above it. The borough council voted unanimously to reject SITA’s plans on 26 January. In response to the vote, Surrey county council chose to ignore a large measure of residential opinion and went ahead and approved the planning application. It peddled a story that this development is the best waste solution for Surrey. Other
5 Sep 2011 : Column 146
people object to this, and I want to raise some of those objections on the Floor of the House, which is where they should be heard.
Indeed, Surrey county council insists that the gasification chamber would facilitate treatment of waste in a more sustainable and eco-friendly way than the mere landfill site that currently exists. But it is difficult to see how this change to gasification would be an improvement, given that gasifiers simply burn black bag waste without first separating the recyclables. This move would not improve Surrey’s waste disposal facilities. There are severe and important concerns about the fact that it could be dangerous and could endanger the people who live near the gasification site.
Owing to the volatile nature of the gases used, the very process of gasification is risky. The Sterecycle explosion in Rotherham reminds everyone why gasifiers and facilities that produce modern electricity from waste plants are, as a rule, located in places away from populations. As people are well aware, and as I have said earlier in this speech, this proposed development would be located right in the heart of a highly densely populated area. People contend that the proposal to locate a large chemical process plant—that is what this would mean—in a public community recycling centre is putting residents’ lives at risk. If it is not putting their lives at risk, it is certainly potentially dangerous, given the possibility of explosion.
In isolated locations with severe transport problems, where waste cannot be moved with much ease, gasification might be the best, if not the only, solution. That is the case, for example, in the Austrian valleys, where gasifiers were pioneered. I know that our winter weather has been more severe in recent years and that we are facing alpine conditions almost every year, but to suggest that the Thames valley is, in any way, like the Austrian Alps in terms of weather severity stretches the definition of “a simile” too far. I am sure that everyone would agree that the Thames valley is not like the Carpathian mountains. The Thames valley benefits from a good transport network and far more environmentally friendly and sustainable waste solutions could be used there—in particular, integrated energy recovery from waste schemes. We do not have to go down this gasifier route. That is the borough council’s argument and it enjoys a lot of support in my constituency.
Why would anyone want to build this gasifier and put it in the middle of a highly densely populated area? There is a simple reason; it boils down to money. The Government are offering generous financial subsidies in the form of renewables obligation certificates for electricity recovered by gasification. That was instigated under the previous Government in 2003 to support small community projects in relatively isolated locations, such as those I have described. It was never envisaged for the south-east, Thames valley area, to which it is being sought to apply. In my constituency, such an approach is inappropriate. The Sustainable Development Commission has recommended that only high-efficiency energy from waste plants should typically receive Government support.
The approach is inappropriate is because this subsidy, like a lot of subsidies in general, has been applied in a blunderbuss fashion. No discrimination is applied; no particular sensitivity is shown to the location. As I have tried to stress, the location is of paramount importance. Of course a gasifier would make sense in a relatively
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isolated community, for example, in a mountainous region, where transferring waste is particularly difficult. My contention, and that of many of my constituents, is that it is simply inappropriate to build such a facility in the midst of a highly densely populated area.
Bearing in mind the size of the development site in question, the phenomenon of the subsidy being applied without any discrimination makes no sense. Gasification is simply a way in which SITA can obtain maximum profit. The company receives, I believe, a £100 bonus for every megawatt of electricity it generates through gasification on top of the £30 value to the grid. Without subsidies and that perverse Government incentive, construction of the gasification plant would, in the eyes of many people, make absolutely no financial sense because the generation of electricity through that means is far too low.
We have here the prospect of a gasifier being built in a densely populated area, largely for financial incentives. SITA, which is content to burn recyclables for profit, will maximise the Government’s environmental subsidies and would stand to gain while many people in the local community feel that they would lose out. I do not believe that that was the intention of the then Government when they proposed subsidies for gasification, but subsequent developments do not tally with current environmental policy or chime well with the Government’s stated, well-publicised and well-known localism agenda.
Only last year, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change promised that this Government would only
“support modern energy generation from waste where local communities want it and where it makes good environmental sense”—[Official Report, 1 July 2010; Vol. 512, c. 977.]
whereas his colleague, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, has talked eloquently and consistently about devolving power to community groups and what might be termed the grass roots—the lowest level of the participatory democracy.
If the Government are to honour their commitment to localism and to do what they set out to do and what they preach, surely when a borough council advocates one idea and a county council advocates the diametric opposite the choice should be clear. Under the principles of localism that choice should be in favour of the borough council. The borough council has repeatedly articulated the arguments I have outlined today and many people believe that Surrey county council should have listened to its opposition to SITA and perhaps supported it. As everyone knows, the county council is at a higher level than the borough council so it seems unclear to me and many of my constituents where the localism agenda fits in. If the county council is to get its way, where does localism find its voice?
The proposal now sits on the desk of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. In the next few days, he will choose whether to refuse it, call it in for his determination or allow it. I hope this debate and some of the concerns that I have articulated on behalf of my constituents will be heeded and will have some tiny margin of influence on his decision. I hope that his decision will reflect some of the issues I have raised and perhaps, after he has
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looked at the debate and at some of the representations made by my constituents and by the borough I represent, he will determine that SITA’s application is wholly inappropriate.
10.29 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) on securing the debate on a topic that I know is of concern to him and his constituents. It is a matter of real significance and he has done them a service in the way in which he has put their case and their concerns. As he has pointed out, this relates to a proposed waste and recycling centre in his constituency, which is within the metropolitan green belt. The current application is, as he said, for a facility to deal with 40,000 tonnes of food waste and 60,000 tonnes of household rubbish a year. In light of his careful opening of the facts, I need not repeat some of the factual detail of the application. It is worth saying that waste activities have taken place on the site since the 1940s. It is because the site lies within the metropolitan green belt that the authority has formally referred the application to the Secretary of State under 2009 consultation regulations regarding green belt development.
The fact that the proposal is before the Secretary of State for determination on whether call-in is appropriate means that I have to be careful in what I can say. The Secretary of State will take a decision not on the merits or otherwise of the application, but only on whether it is appropriate for him to call it in so that he can take a decision as opposed to leaving the decision to the local waste planning authority. As that is a quasi-judicial decision, I, as the Minister speaking on his behalf, have to be careful, as is normal in these cases, not to say anything in the debate that might prejudice or give the appearance of prejudicing that quasi-judicial decision on whether to call in the application. I hope, therefore that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I cannot go into some of the detail that he has set out in relation either to the application or to some of the arguments regarding the merits of various processes and technologies.
I can, however, help him and his constituents by explaining the call-in process. About 475,000 planning applications are made to local authorities every year and the Secretary of State has powers, under section 77 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, to require that applications be referred to him for determination rather than being determined by the local authority. In certain cases concerning green belt land, there is an automatic process of referral, as I have mentioned.
The current policy on how the Secretary of State should exercise the call-in power was set out by the then Minister, Richard Caborn, in June 1999. Examples were given of cases that may be called in, including those which, in the Secretary of State’s opinion, could have significant effects beyond their immediate locality; give rise to substantial regional or national controversy; appear to conflict with national policy on important matters; or raise significant architectural and urban design issues. Other possible call-in cases are those concerning the interests of national security or foreign Governments. That is the broad policy.
The Secretary of State also has the power under article 25 of the Town and Country Planning (Development Management Procedure) (England) Order 2010 to issue
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a holding direction to the local authority instructing it not to grant permission on the application without his authorisation. That is to allow him sufficient time to give the issues raised his full consideration. My officials advise me that Surrey county council, which is the planning authority for this purpose, was issued with an article 25 direction on 2 August 2011. That is the background and context.
It is the Secretary of State’s policy, within the criteria I have outlined, to be very selective about calling in planning applications. I have already said that there are about 475,000 planning applications a year to local planning authorities, and it is worth noting that in 2010 only 13 cases were called in by the Planning Inspectorate for inquiries to be held. I hope that puts the matter into context.
My hon. Friend will be pleased to learn that the Secretary of State and the officials who advise him are currently considering the application and have received 20 individual representations to call in the application. Their assessment will consider whether the planning application itself or the issues raised by concerned parties, such as those who have written in and whose concerns have been articulated by my hon. Friend, justify the Secretary of State’s intervention based on the call-in policy that I have just set out. It will then be for the Secretary of State or one of the Ministers in the Department acting on his behalf to determine whether or not to intervene in the matter. In doing that, the Secretary of State will have regard to the call-in policy and to national policy generally in relation to such matters.
I understand the concerns articulated by my hon. Friend. I am sure he will appreciate that applications for waste facilities are never popular, and almost invariably give rise to local objections, concerns and debate. Such facilities are an essential part of the infrastructure necessary to make our towns and cities function properly. They often provide a service beyond the immediate neighbourhood in which they are situated, so there is a balance involved.
As I know my hon. Friend is aware, policy responsibility for waste issues involves several parts of Government, but responsibility for the planning part of the process rests with my Department. It is understandable, therefore, that concerns are raised. The planning system plays a critical role in delivering the Government’s targets on waste in a sustainable way, and we are committed to replacing the previously adversarial system that we have had in planning with one in which communities work together as a norm.
The overall policy objective is to protect human health and the environment by producing less waste and by using it as a resource where possible. We remain committed to that. Equally, the Government remain committed to protecting the green belt and maintaining the key policy that inappropriate development should not be approved except in very special circumstances. In that balancing process, one must bear in mind that current national planning policy says that planning authorities should recognise that the locational needs of some types of waste management facilities, together with the wider environmental and economic benefits that I mentioned, are material considerations that should be given weight in determining whether proposals should be given planning permission.
Local authorities also have a national and a European duty to prepare and deliver waste management and
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planning strategies in a way that enables communities to take more responsibility for their waste. They also need to prepare and deliver planning strategies that protect the green belt, as well as being consistent with other planning policies. It is for local authorities to consider all national policies and local opinions and to produce plans which represent the best solution for their areas. It is important that in doing so, local authorities are required to consult communities fully when preparing their strategies.
As my hon. Friend said, his constituency is part of an area that has a two-tier system of local government. In all parts of the country where there is a two-tier system of county and district or borough councils, the county council is the waste planning authority, generally because the waste arising and its disposal tend to cover a wider area than that of individual local planning authorities represented by a district or borough council. The county council is required to consult the district council on the development of its strategic plans and on individual waste applications.
The Government recently published their plans for a new national planning policy framework, which is currently out for consultation and is due to close on 17 October. As my hon. Friend will have noticed, that draft framework does not contain specific waste policies, because national waste planning policy will be published alongside the national waste management plan for England, but local authorities preparing waste plans should have regard to policies in the framework. That includes the presumption in favour of sustainable development, which applies to waste provision, and the importance of ensuring that there is sufficient detail to justify the need for and location of waste facilities.
Local authorities are responsible for approving or rejecting planning applications in line with their local plans, taking into account any representations that they have received, and that is how localism fits into the issue: there is the context of national policy; within that, there are statutory responsibilities that fall, as appropriate, upon county, district or borough councils as the planning authorities for particular classes of application; and we are committed to giving local elected representatives greater responsibility to make decisions within the context of that structure. Where there are disagreements or two-tier areas, it is worth bearing in mind that the Localism Bill introduces a duty to co-operate, giving local planning authorities and public bodies a requirement to engage in constructive and active dialogue on such matters.
I hope that I have set out the context of the issues that my hon. Friend has raised. I assure him that I understand the strength of feeling on this and on many similar issues, and that, in deciding whether to call in the application, the Secretary of State and his officials will take into account the points that my hon. Friend and his constituents have made. We are committed to ensuring that delays in the process are kept to a minimum. I am therefore pleased to advise him that we aim to issue a decision on the matter as soon as possible, and he of course will be formally notified of the decision, once it is made, in the usual way.