19 Oct 2011 : Column 1002
For households in the squeezed middle, for vulnerable people and for millions of small businesses who need lower bills, now is the time to take action. Now is the time to make pricing transparent, to simplify tariffs, to tackle mis-selling, to demand that the energy companies use their profits to help to reduce energy bills this winter, and to reform the energy market. I urge hon. Members to take that action today, and I am delighted that the House supports Labour’s motion.
6.43 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I am delighted to have the chance to respond to what has been, broadly, an excellent, high-quality and wide-ranging debate. Some contributions were perhaps overly political, but for the most part they were thoughtful. That reflects the genuine concern on both sides of the House, and the fact that in every single part of the country, people are worried about fuel prices this Christmas and this winter. They want the Government and the Opposition to work together as effectively as possible to try to deal with those issues.
That is why we have said that we will not oppose the motion—I could happily have written much of it myself. The motion states that the energy market is in urgent need of reform. That is why we ignored the Labour party’s claim before the election that there was no case for reform and have started the most wide-ranging reform process of the past 20 years.
The motion refers to concerns about Ofgem’s study into prices and margins. We encouraged Ofgem to carry out that work, and it was under this Government, not the previous Government, that it was started. The motion states that
“energy tariffs are confusing and unfair”.
Everyone who has spoken in this debate has talked about the difficulty of switching suppliers owing to the complexity of the system. That is an issue on which we really want to see progress. It also calls on us “to investigate mis-selling”. We are putting that right, although it would have been within the gift of the previous Administration to have addressed it—but they did not take that opportunity. The motion asks that we apply a simple format to tariffs so that people can compare them easily. Again, that is work that we are taking forward through Ofgem.
Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman popped in 10 minutes ago, while others have been here for five and a half hours, so I shall not give way to him.
The motion calls for the publication of trading data, but Ofgem, under this Government, have now engaged forensic accountants to untangle the accounts of the big six. It also refers to breaking the dominance of the big six, but it is this Government who have started to facilitate the process by which smaller companies can enter the market and by which power generation can be auctioned off by the major companies. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) asked whether the Government were going to stand alongside the big six. I think that we have shown, through our actions, that we are prepared to tackle the abuses that were there when the leader of the Labour party was Energy Secretary, and we have decided to move things forward.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1003
The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) talked about the energy summit. I hope that, on reflection, people will realise that the messages from that summit are important to our constituents. No one is pretending that they are the full answer or the long-term answer, but all our constituents would be well-advised, in the run-up to this winter, to consider what they can do themselves to mitigate high prices. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has never said that consumers should be blamed for current high prices, but he has said that there are things that we can all do and which we should be doing. Ridiculing that, as she did, might be good politics, but it does not help her constituents. If the alternative that she is suggesting is that they should not check their bills—my right hon. Friend has said how valuable that has been—consider switching or insulate, under her suggestion, her constituents would suffer this winter.
Caroline Flint: The Opposition are certainly not suggesting that people should not try to get the best deal. The problem is, as has been amplified today, that they cannot find the best deal when they try. The Secretary of State said in his opening speech—if I heard correctly—that the letters that people receive will tell customers what is the cheapest deal for them. Will they get that specific information or will they just be asked to ring a number to check?
Charles Hendry: It will be a combination. That information will be on their bills if it is believed that they could be on a cheaper tariff. We advocated such a measure while in opposition, but it was rejected by the then Government. Also, letters specifically suggesting that someone would benefit from changing will be sent to them when the company believes that they could be on a lower tariff.
In addition, we need to focus on the economic realities. The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), to whom I respond with the fondness with which he spoke himself, said that he was going to be political, but actually gave one of the most balanced and effective speeches of the debate. He talked about the role of the big six and the fact that we need them for the country’s future electricity and energy security. He and his constituents will know how important the two German companies, RWE and E.ON, are to the building of a new power station. He was right to say that this debate was not about whether we are pro-business and anti-consumer or anti-business and pro-consumer. We need those energy companies to invest in the future of energy generation in this country if prices are not to go through the roof because of insufficient supply.
My hon. Friends the Members for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and for Warrington South (David Mowat) drew attention to the massive challenge and the £110 billion that has to be invested this decade in our future energy infrastructure if we are to keep the lights on. The existing energy companies are part of that process. There need to be others, but we cannot achieve that if we drive away the existing players.
The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson), who spoke with his usual sincerity on a theme that is familiar to him, almost implied that we would be better off without those companies. However, if we drive them out, who will invest in the nuclear plants that he wants? It will be international companies
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1004
that choose to make those investments, but if he says that they are not welcome here, the nuclear renaissance that he and I both want simply will not happen. If we reach a point where supply does not meet demand, the first thing that will happen is that prices will go up. His constituents in Scotland—as well as those of the hon. Members for Ynys Môn and for Islwyn (Chris Evans) in Wales—will be the worst affected by that, because they are the ones who use the most electricity, as they are often at home, owing to the conditions that he spoke about, in the coldest climates in our country. They are the people we must bear in mind for the longer term if we want to address the problem properly and effectively.
We have looked at the profits that the companies are making compared with their profits globally. Their profits in the United Kingdom are often a small part of their overall profitability. We need those investors to play a bigger role, just as we need more companies coming forward.
Charles Hendry: I will give way if there is time later, but I want to respond to all the points that have been made.
At the end of a year when we have seen the worst nuclear incident for decades, the worst oil and gas incident and unrest in the middle east, where so much of our oil and gas comes from, it was inevitable that there would be upward pressure on prices. Looking ahead to next winter, the wholesale gas price is 40% more than it was last year, and gas makes up 40% of our generation, which makes a knock-on consequence inevitable. In the face of those global pressures, we should focus on how we—the Government, Parliament, industry, consumer groups and individual Members—can ensure that we support our constituents through this period.
I do not say this to make a political point, but we should recognise that there is a legacy issue that needs to be picked up as well. We need to secure investment in this decade at twice the rate of the last decade. We have to play catch-up, and the market reform process, which was put off for too long, now needs to be addressed. We have acted to prevent consumers from being affected by price increases that would otherwise have happened. The carbon capture and storage levy was going to be included in people’s bills; we have taken it off, saving them an equivalent of £1 billion over time. The previous Administration’s renewable heat incentive would have added an estimated £179 to annual bills by 2020, but we have removed it to ensure that we cut the impact on consumers, while the tough decision that we took on feed-in tariffs will save consumers £3.5 billion to 2020. The Labour party could not have been stronger in opposing that, but we believed that it was right to be on the side of consumers rather than wealthy investors. In the renewable obligation banding review, which we will publish shortly, we will show how we want to use those resources most efficiently and effectively to introduce the low-carbon economy that we want to see.
There has been criticism of the level of green charges—the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) was one of the people who raised that—but it is sensible to put them in context. Some £20 of a typical gas bill of £600 relates to green or environmental charges, whereas £41 in an electricity bill of £500 relates to environmental charges—well under 10%—with a further £19 relating
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1005
to energy efficiency programmes in the homes of some of the poorest in our communities, which is work that we should all support. In total, therefore, we are talking not about the figure of £200 that we read in the press—we have challenged the media to say why they have quoted that figure—but about £80 in a bill of £120, which is not the real reason why energy prices are being driven up. We have said clearly that we will look carefully at how those moneys are allocated to ensure that we deliver the best possible growth outcome in this country.
The right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) talked about standing charges and rising block tariffs, which the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) also picked up. My concern is that switching the system would not just penalise people in the largest houses, but would hit the people who, because of circumstances beyond their control, are the major energy users. They are people who are older and at home more, and who need more warmth in the winter. They are people who have disabilities and perhaps cannot get out. They might be large families, perhaps on low incomes, or people who are out of work. In making the kinds of change that the right hon. Gentleman advocates, we would have to be very careful that they did not have a perverse consequence, and that the people who, through no fault of their own, have to use more energy—particularly heat—would not be adversely affected in the process. We will look at the ideas that he has put forward, but we need to be aware of the potential consequences.
We could have made progress on this matter earlier. My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) called for greater transparency in energy bills. In the 2010 Energy Bill, we tabled new clause 4 on that subject, but it was voted down by the Labour Government. The kind of information that we will now require, proposals for which we are asking Ofgem to take forward, would have been addressed more effectively if that provision had been adopted. We tried even earlier, when we tabled new clause 4 to the 2008 Energy Bill. That dealt with environmental charges and clarity in bills, but it was voted down by the then Government.
We have heard many contributions on energy efficiency. That, too, is an area in which we could have made greater progress. We proposed the green deal in an amendment to the 2010 Energy Bill, but it was blocked by the Labour Government. We could have had 18 months more progress on insulation, on dealing with energy efficiency and on taking a long-term perspective on these issues, rather than trying to deal with them on a small-scale basis.
My hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) was absolutely right to highlight the important role that the warm home discount will play, and the help that it will provide. He was also right about the need to speed up the process on smart meters. We pushed for that in the 2010 Energy Bill, and I have been pushing for it since 2006. Only now are we in a position to try to take some of those measures further forward. In all those areas, we are making up for lost time.
Albert Owen: Will the Minister give way?
Charles Hendry:
I will not give way, as I have several other points that I want to make, including some on the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about off-grid consumers.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1006
He said that he would like us to meet up and talk about the issues, and I would like him and my hon. Friends the Members for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and for St Ives, and others, to talk to me about how we should take this work forward. Important work has been done by the Office of Fair Trading, and we need to look at how to take that further. The issue that was raised about differential pricing and price on delivery has been addressed, and the OFT has said that it will continue to look at examples of market abuse.
I want to see what more we can do to develop the gas grid, because that would be of real benefit to the constituents of the hon. Member for Ynys Môn. I also want to see what additional powers would need to be taken, and where. The OFT’s report suggests that the market is working in almost all parts of the country, but we need to be certain, as our constituents face very high bills over the coming months, that we are doing this in the most appropriate way.
The role of shale gas was mentioned, but that issue will not affect energy pricing this winter. It is too early to know whether it will be a game-changer in the United Kingdom, but it could have a significant role to play. I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) that it would be unwise to bet the farm on shale gas, unless his farm happened to be in north America and sitting on top of a shale gas deposit. However, we look forward to these technologies and the contributions that they can make as we will take forward a wide-ranging, all-embracing energy policy.
There has been a legacy of neglect. There has been a failure to secure the necessary investment in new energy infrastructure, and to address fuel poverty, which rose from 2.4 million to 3 million households over the course of the last Labour Government. There has been a failure to give consumers the clarity that they want, and to facilitate an effective changing regime, but that is now being put right. There has been an absolute failure to grip the challenges of energy efficiency. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree said that, for too long, those issues had not been addressed, and she was right. For too long, they were not addressed, but we have now taken forward many of the measures that the motion calls for—
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36) .
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Main Question put accordingly and agreed to.
That this House believes that the energy market does not serve the public interest and is in need of urgent reform; notes with concern research by OFGEM showing that average household energy bills have risen, while energy companies’ profit margins have soared; recognises that, with a cold winter forecast and Government support cut, millions of families will struggle to heat their homes; believes that energy tariffs are confusing and unfair, meaning that 80 per cent. of people currently pay more for their energy than they need to, and that consumers who try to switch are often given inaccurate information; further believes that to tackle climate change, build a new low carbon economy and make the UK a world leader in green energy, which will bring new industry and jobs to the UK, people need to know that the energy market is fair; and calls on the Government to investigate mis-selling and ensure consumers are compensated, introduce a simple format
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1007
to be applied across all tariffs, so that people can compare the full range of energy deals at a glance, increase transparency by requiring energy companies to publish their trading data, reform the energy market to break the dominance of the Big Six by requiring them to sell power into a pool, allowing new businesses to enter the market, increasing competition and driving down energy bills for families and businesses, and demand that energy companies use their profits to help reduce energy bills this winter.
Armed Forces Bill (Programme) (No. 3)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Armed Forces Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Orders of 10 January and 14 June 2011 (Armed Forces Bill (Programme) and Armed Forces Bill (Programme) (No. 2)):
Consideration of Lords Amendments
1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement at today’s sitting.
Subsequent stages
2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put.
3. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—(Jeremy Wright.)
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1008
Armed Forces Bill
Co nsideration of Lords amendments
7 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan): I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 5.
Mr Robathan: This group of amendments deals with the armed forces covenant report. Amendment 1 reflects the concerns in the other place about what some considered to be an unfortunate juxtaposition that would result from inserting the armed forces covenant report clause in the Armed Forces Act 2006 directly after section 359, which deals with pardons for soldiers executed during the first world war. This Lords amendment, which the Government accept, will have the effect of moving the clause to a different position in new part 16A to the Armed Forces Act 2006, and the new part will be entitled “Armed Forces Covenant Report”. So, for the future, the covenant report will have its own part within the legislation. I commend this change to the House.
Lords amendment 2 deals with inquests. It responds to the views expressed in this House and in the other place about the desirability of including the operation of inquests in the list of topics to be covered in the armed forces covenant report. It addresses an issue that is close to the heart of many right hon. and hon. Members. Our intention has always been that, when the Defence Secretary prepares the annual report, he should have regard to the whole range of subjects within the scope of the armed forces covenant, including the operation of the inquest system for bereaved service families.
We have listened very carefully to the concerns expressed in both Houses and we have decided to accept the amendment. In so doing, I wish to put on record our understanding of what the amendment envisages. The effects of service that the Defence Secretary could cover as a result of this amendment could encompass a wide range of inquests for both veterans and serving personnel. In accordance with his understanding of what the amendment envisages, the Defence Secretary will exercise the same discretion on this topic as on the other mandated topics—namely, he will consider which groups of service people and which aspects of the operation of inquests it is appropriate to cover in his report.
Quarterly ministerial statements on military inquests are already provided to Parliament; indeed, they have been since 2006. They are accompanied by detailed tables outlining progress in conducting an inquest for each fatality resulting from operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Notwithstanding the wide range of potential issues, our expectation is that in current circumstances the annual report will focus on similar matters to those covered in the quarterly statements. Our understanding of what the amendment envisages is that it is intended to be broad, but that there are matters that should not be covered in the annual report.
Members are well aware that inquests and coroners are independent of Government. In so far as the Government provide a legislative framework for inquests,
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1009
this is a matter for the Ministry of Justice, so I wish to make it clear that the Defence Secretary will not report on matters concerning the general operation of the inquest system, but only on those that affect service people.
It is clearly essential that investigations into the deaths of service personnel are treated equally in the annual report, regardless of where they are held in the UK. So, where appropriate, the Defence Secretary will under his general powers under this clause report on matters relating to the operation in Scotland of fatal accident inquiries into the deaths of service people. Inquests are a crucial part of how we support those who died in the service of their country. This amendment emphasises the debt we owe to the members of our armed forces who have given their lives and to their families. I urge the House to agree to it.
I deal now with the three Government amendments 3 to 5. These relate to the involvement of other Government Departments and the devolved Administrations in the preparation of the annual report. The fact that there are three separate amendments simply reflects the advice that the proposed new section of the Act was becoming too long and should be split up. It has no other significance.
During the Bill’s passage much attention has been paid to the relationship between the Secretary of State for Defence, who will be responsible for laying the annual report before Parliament, and the Ministers and Departments responsible for delivering many of the services discussed in that report. The annual report will of course be on behalf of the United Kingdom Government as a whole. However, the Government have responded to concerns expressed in both Houses, and the amendments introduce a framework enabling Parliament to be absolutely clear about who is contributing what to the report.
The Defence Secretary will in future be under an obligation to obtain the views of the relevant Departments on the matters covered in the report, and to seek those of the relevant devolved Administrations. That difference in emphasis reflects the different constitutional position. We are working with the devolved Administrations on the covenant, not imposing new duties on them. The Defence Secretary will be required to set out those views in full, or to obtain the Department’s agreement to any summary of their views. If the devolved Administrations have not contributed to part of the report, the report will make that clear.
I also draw the House’s attention to a number of undertakings given in another place on 4 October by my noble Friend Lord Astor of Hever on how the annual report will be prepared. In particular, the Government have made a commitment to consult the covenant reference group at an early stage on the issues that will be addressed in the report. The amendments, together with those commitments, underline our determination that the preparation of the annual report should be an inclusive and transparent process, so that Parliament can rely on its highlighting the key issue of the day. I commend them to the House.
Lords amendments 2 to 5 agreed to.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1010
Mr Robathan: 1 beg to move, that this House disagrees with Lords amendment 6.
The amendment inserts a new clause in the Bill which would permit members of the armed forces and Crown servants who are, or who have been, awarded Commonwealth medals to wear them without restriction. The debates in another place on the subject of medals leave no doubt about the emotions surrounding this important issue. The amendment raises questions about the process and rules for deciding on the acceptance and wearing of awards given by foreign and Commonwealth nations, about the position within that process of Her Majesty the Queen, and about recognising and supporting the Commonwealth.
The Government’s position on the fundamentals of how the system should work remains the same as that of the last Government, who, I remind the House, were in office when the issue of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal was considered. It has been held by every previous Government since King George VI established the current system. The Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals—the HD committee—was set up to advise the sovereign on all issues relating to honours, decorations and medals. It consists of senior Crown servants from the Departments most involved. Where relevant, the views of service Chiefs of Staff are fed in and reflected in the advice given to the sovereign.
The thinking behind this approach is straightforward. When British citizens, whether civilian or military, carry out their duty to the sovereign and to their country, it is for the sovereign to decide on the award of honours for that service. That allows us to be consistent in our response to all foreign or Commonwealth states. It prevents a situation in which, if other states were free to honour UK citizens as they chose, there might be suggestions of patronage or influence. It also means that the advice given to the sovereign about the grant of honours is consistent across Government and, as far as possible, dispassionate. Decisions on whether to reward service should not be made in the glare of public or political debate. I do not pretend that absolute consistency has been, or always can be, maintained. Sometimes exceptions have been, and no doubt will be, made. This amendment would lay down for the future a new rule about medals: that those awarded a Commonwealth medal shall be entitled in all circumstances to wear it. However, it would also apply that rule to Commonwealth medals awarded in the past, including the PJM medal.
I do not wish to dwell today on the issues surrounding the PJM or any other specific medal. The Government will remain engaged with the Lords, who have argued strongly that the present arrangements for the PJM are not right. I recommend that the House should disagree with amendment 6 as this is not an appropriate matter for legislation.
The amendment overturns past decisions made on Commonwealth medals. In doing so, it establishes the precedent that Parliament may overturn—after any length of time—any decision of the sovereign as the fount of honour. It takes away from the sovereign—and, indeed, from the United Kingdom—any control over the acceptance of Commonwealth medals in the future. It is drafted in
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1011
terms which apply whenever a Commonwealth country chooses to honour members of the armed forces, veterans or other Crown servants, even if that was against the wishes of our armed forces or, indeed, the sovereign. More generally, it establishes a further precedent that Parliament can lay down and change the rules which are to be applied to decisions on the acceptance of honours. It does away with the safeguards I have mentioned, such as the need for a basically consistent approach to awards by all friendly and allied states. It takes us to a system where decisions on the award of past, present and future honours are made in the party political environment of parliamentary consideration, rather than through the largely non-political approach set up by King George VI. I believe this is wrong in principle.
In addition, the amendment would create a different principle for the wearing of medals awarded by Commonwealth nations from that which applies to those awarded by other allies. The operations in which our armed forces are involved are increasingly international, with British units working alongside United Nations, NATO or European Union partners. We could not readily explain to non-Commonwealth allies, and especially to the individuals they wish to reward, why we treat their awards on a fundamentally different basis from those offered by a Commonwealth nation. Making a distinction of this kind is not the way to reflect our respect for the Commonwealth.
No system is perfect. As my noble Friend Lord Astor has stated in another place, officials have been instructed to look at the process by which advice about the institution of medals and the acceptance of foreign awards for military service is put together, considered and submitted to Her Majesty, and at how decisions are promulgated. They will then consider whether any advice should be given to Her Majesty about the need to review the process and make changes. We aim to conclude this work before the end of the year.
Lord Astor also said that, in the light of the continued strength of feeling about the PJM, we would put in hand representations to the HD committee to reconsider the position. That is the right way to handle such matters. The wrong way is for Parliament to overturn Her Majesty’s decisions and to establish a precedent for Parliament to lay down new rules. In particular, we should not make a rule which removes all further involvement of Her Majesty and the United Kingdom from decisions on Commonwealth awards.
These awards should be made in a measured, dispassionate and independent manner away from the glare of public debate. I urge the House to disagree with the amendment.
Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab):
I will not detain the House for long. The Minister said party politics should not be involved in the granting of awards and honours, particularly those from Commonwealth countries. I entirely agree, and I think he will agree that this amendment is intended not necessarily to change the law on these issues, but rather to bring attention to the situation with regard to the PJM medal. Our constituents have great difficulty understanding why these veterans, who are probably in their 60s and 70s and who have been awarded this medal by Malaysia, can receive it but cannot wear it. The approach is strange and very inconsistent. The Minister has said that there has not
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1012
been complete consistency in the past on how these medals and awards are dealt with. I do not think for a second that a precedent would be broken here, because precedents have already been broken on who can and cannot wear particular medals.
7.15 pm
It is also incongruous that the Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders who fought in Malaya in the 1960s and 1970s can wear the medals but our British veterans cannot. They fought the same battles and the same war, and they deserve the same recognition. One assumes that the Queen’s Governments in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and elsewhere advised Her Majesty that it would be possible for this particular medal to be worn. Indeed, I am informed that the last Governor-General of Australia was a recipient of the PJM medal and was allowed by his own Government, on the advice he must have given to the Queen, to wear that medal. It is incongruous, is it not, that the former Governor-General of Australia can wear the medal but somebody in my constituency who fought in Malaya in the ’60s cannot?
I am grateful that the Minister indicated that the Government would look again at the issue of the PJM medal.
Mr Robathan: The right hon. Gentleman is making an eloquent case for reviewing the entire system, and we are currently carrying out a medals review. I assure him that it is a genuine review, not a—[Interruption.] Not one as conducted by the Government of whom the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) was a member.
Paul Murphy: The Minister has already indicated that both Governments did not really resolve this issue. The previous Government examined it carefully. Lord Touhig, the then Member for Islwyn, raised it on a number of occasions, both by way of an Adjournment debate and elsewhere, but he got nowhere with the Government of whom I had been a member. Nevertheless, it is important that the Minister understands the huge strength of feeling on this issue up and down the country. This is not about taking away the powers of the sovereign and it is not about the prerogative; it is about dealing with the simple issue that veterans who fought in Malaya in the 1960s should be allowed to wear the medal which they have been allowed to accept.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I rise briefly to echo many of the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). A significant number of my constituents cannot understand why they are not being allowed to wear the PJM medal. They are puzzled as they believe it to be a genuine medal, and it was gazetted as such in the London Gazette in the 1960s. I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but I am persuaded by the Minister’s statement that he intends to examine the procedure by which these things are decided. I agree with him that the Lords amendment may not be the right way to address this problem. I am therefore persuaded to support the Government in voting against the Lords amendment, on the understanding that he will indeed carry out a genuine reconsideration of the process. By that means, he may well help my constituents who are puzzled by the law that says they cannot currently wear the PJM medal.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1013
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome the opportunity to discuss this amendment, and I am very disappointed that the Government are objecting to it. Lord Craig of Radley made a strong case for his amendment in the other place, supported by Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Touhig, arguing that our veterans and service personnel should be permitted to wear Commonwealth medals that have been awarded to them. It is very humbling to talk to service personnel and veterans about the experiences that have led to the awarding of a medal, and they should have the right to wear proudly the medals that they have earned.
I support the need for the awarding of medals to be fully considered by the cross-departmental Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals, but we cannot continue to have anomalies such as veterans being awarded a medal but not being given the right to wear it. This amendment therefore seeks to address the specific issue in relation to the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal.
Mr Robathan: I know that—[ Interruption. ] Actually, I think it is quite gentlemanly. The hon. Lady cannot be held responsible for the actions of the previous Government because although she may have supported them, she was not in the House, but sitting next to her is someone who was doing my job not 18 months ago—the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones). This was not a matter of any concern to him then.
Gemma Doyle: That is not an argument for not acting this evening. If the Minister will allow me to make a little progress, he will understand why we are supporting the amendment this evening. I have no desire to upset royal prerogative, and I respect traditions and conventions, but I did not come into Parliament to accept the status quo meekly—I stood for Parliament to challenge conventions that institutionalise unfairnesses such as this. As we have heard this evening, many Members in the House have recognised and acknowledged that unfairness in their support for holders of the PJM.
Colleagues on both sides of the House, some of whom have now moved to the other place, have campaigned on this issue for many years. I think that in the beginning they would have accepted the response that this was a matter for the HD committee, but now, after years of politely asking the committee to reconsider this matter, Parliament must stand up and take a lead. There cannot be many Members here who have not been contacted by a holder of the PJM who would dearly love to wear their medal. My constituent Moira Murray from Dumbarton, who served in the RAF and travelled to Malaysia to collect her medal, visited me during the summer to say how proud she would be to wear it. Moira is joined by thousands of other brave British veterans who served in Malaysia in the 1950s and ’60s who have been awarded the PJM by the grateful Malaysian nation, which was keen to recognise their contribution, but the HD committee decided that they should be allowed to accept it but not to wear it.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): Will the hon. Lady give way?
Gemma Doyle: I will give way, but I hope this is going to be a different point to the one that has already been made.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1014
Dr Murrison: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way but she really cannot get away with her synthetic outrage. During 13 years of her party’s Administration nothing ever happened on this. Will she at least give credit to this Administration for setting up a fundamental review of honours and decorations through the appropriate committee?
Gemma Doyle: I am not making party political points and this is not synthetic outrage—indeed, it is not outrage. I am putting forward quite a rational case for supporting the amendment that the Lords have put forward.
What kind of message does this send to our brave service people—“Go abroad for your active service, risk your life for others, sacrifice so much for your country and for the grateful people of another and be awarded a medal but not the right to wear it”? PJM holders might be able to accept this arrangement but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) has already indicated, the medal has been awarded to veterans from other Commonwealth countries who took part in the conflict, and they do have the right to wear it, unlike their British colleagues who served alongside them. Australian and New Zealand veterans are allowed to wear their medals, but British veterans are not. Given that they are all subject to the same sovereign, the Minister must be able to understand why this is perceived as unfair and anomalous.
I have written to the Minister on this matter previously and he referred, as he has this evening, to previous consideration and decisions by the HD committee. He also explained why medal holders in other countries can wear the PJM:
“Each Government applies its own rules and judgement to its own citizens and no country is obligated to follow another. This applies to medals as it applies to other aspects of public policy.”
In that case, I urge him not to hide behind royal prerogative but to take his own advice and take a Government decision. It would be helpful if he could clarify whether the discussions on medals are the ultimate responsibility of the Government, as he indicated in that letter, meaning that the Government could indeed press ahead with change, or whether it is an issue of royal prerogative, in which case it simply does not make sense to have different rules for the same medal for different countries of the Commonwealth as they are all subject to the same sovereign.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): When I was awarded the Order of Merit, officer class, by the President of the Republic of Poland, I received, without any solicitation, a letter from Buckingham palace signed by Her Majesty’s representative saying that I could wear the Order of Merit, officer class, of the Republic of Poland anywhere in the United Kingdom. Does my hon. Friend agree that it seems a little unfair that former members of the Royal Green Jackets regiment in my constituency cannot wear the medals that they earned in conflict whereas I, without asking, have been given permission to wear the OM, officer class, of the Republic of Poland?
Mr Speaker: Order. The distinguished career history of the hon. Gentleman will be of continuing interest and indeed fascination, but I know that in responding, the hon. Lady will wish to remain in order.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1015
Gemma Doyle: Indeed. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) has highlighted why so many veterans feel that the decision is unfair.
The wearing of the PJM has been raised in the House in the past, both in Adjournment debates and in several early-day motions calling for reform of the HD committee system or requesting that the Government make representations to the committee to bring about change and ensure that veterans have the right to wear their medal. Signatories of the early-day motion included the familiar names of the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), the present Under-Secretary of State for Defence, and the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), now the Minister for the Armed Forces, who are not on the Treasury Bench at present, but frequently are when the House debates defence issues.
The hon. Member for North Devon also signed a motion specifically calling for an exemption and noting the differences with other Commonwealth nations. Given the Ministers’ previous support for PJM holders, I hope it is not too much to ask them, along with the other 51 Government Members who have signed early-day motions supporting PJM holders, to support the Lords amendment today. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State is chuntering from a sedentary position, but I advise him to listen to the argument being made today.
Concerns have been expressed about the precedent that the amendment could set, but we must remember that it seeks to address a very specific set of circumstances—that veterans be allowed to wear a Commonwealth medal that they have earned, been awarded and been permitted to accept.
Members may be aware, however, that the Government have faced similar situations in the past. The Russian convoy 40th anniversary medal was awarded to British veterans in 1985, after negotiations between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Russia. Like the PJM, although veterans were able to receive it, they were not allowed to wear it until 1994 when, after further negotiations and lobbying, veterans were given permission to proudly display their commendations. Ministers talk about precedent, but it seems that a precedent already exists that would permit the wearing of the PJM.
I do not suggest that we start using legislation routinely as a vehicle for decisions on medals, but in this instance it is clear that Members feel that the process is not working. My office receives frequent inquiries from people who are not constituents of mine but are entirely frustrated by the medals system and the lack of information about the review, in which the Minister places so much faith.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con) rose—
Gemma Doyle: I am not giving way at the moment. I know that the Minister had to re-open the consultation on the medals review as the proper consultees were not initially involved.
Mr Gray:
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I am amazed that she shows no tint of political embarrassment about the blatant political opportunism of promising now to do something that her Government refused to do for 13 years. Will she not be satisfied with the fact that my right hon. Friend the Minister announced
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1016
that there will be a review of the PJM, which is an important point? The Lords amendment is not about the PJM; it is about all Commonwealth medals. Surely she can understand that those of us who feel strongly about the PJM on behalf of constituents should be satisfied with the fact that the Government are prepared to review it—something that her party was never prepared to do.
Gemma Doyle: The hon. Gentleman is making a somewhat better case than the Minister made. As he supports the principle of the amendment, I hope he might reconsider and join us in the Lobby this evening.
In conclusion, I welcome the strengthening of the armed forces covenant in the Bill. It offers veterans, as well as service personnel and families, the protections that they deserve. Supporting the amendment would be an indication of the approach that the Government intend to take in moving forward in the spirit of the new legislation on the armed forces covenant.
7.30 pm
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Before addressing Lords amendment 6, I wish to join colleagues in paying tribute to the men and women of our armed forces, wherever they serve, and expressing gratitude for their hard work, bravery and courage.
I agree with the Minister. The Liberal Democrats will be disagreeing with our friends in another place on this matter. We need a full and thorough review of all the issues associated with the awarding of Commonwealth medals. It is pernicious for the Opposition to pick one medal and try to make political capital out of it, rather than looking at the matter overall. However, I say to the Minister that this will be the second review that the coalition Government have had on the awarding of medals. It is important that this time we learn from the failure of the previous review to secure cross-party support and get it right for the long term. The terms of reference and the timeline for the last review were not made public and it failed to consult interested stakeholder groups, including the veterans to whom the medals are awarded. I ask him to give an assurance that those three concerns will be resolved in the new review.
Mr Robathan: We have since consulted specifically on each issue and await the approval, or otherwise, of the medals review, but I am afraid that it has not yet been approved.
Stephen Gilbert: I thank the Minister for his intervention.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I must remind the hon. Gentleman that his party backed this campaign when in opposition. It also campaigned very strongly for the national defence medal, including some very nasty leaflets from a Liberal Democrat candidate directed against the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis).
Stephen Gilbert:
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. The Liberal Democrats support the national defence medal and a thorough review that will deliver consistency for the awarding of all medals for members of our armed forces. It is absolutely right that for people joining our armed forces it is as much a calling for them as it is a job. It is right that we give them the recognition
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1017
they deserve for their bravery in standing up for our freedoms. It is absolute hypocrisy for a former Minister sitting on the Opposition Front Bench, who was chuntering under his breath and saying that the reason they changed their view—
Mr Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman that no allegation of hypocrisy against an individual hon. or right hon. Member should be made. I feel sure that he is not imputing such motives, but if he is perhaps he would withdraw his remark.
Stephen Gilbert: If that is what the record shows, Mr. Speaker, I of course withdraw the remark.
There is a level of disingenuity, shall we say, in a party that had 13 years to act on this issue but failed to do so now seeking to make political capital from it. It is important that we get this right for all the men and women who serve in our armed forces and that we do so in a considered way. That is why we disagree with the Lords tonight.
Mr Speaker: Order. I do not know whether the Minister is seeking to respond to the debate. No? He is not obliged to, as the Government have set out their position.
Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 6.
The House divided:
Ayes 263, Noes 216.
[7.33pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Mr Steve
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr Mark
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Howell, John
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, Richard
Parish, Neil
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mark Hunter and
Jeremy Wright
NOES
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Ali, Rushanara
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Campbell, Mr Alan
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hood, Mr Jim
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Pound, Stephen
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr David Hamilton and
Tom Blenkinsop
Question accordingly agreed to.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1018
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1019
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1020
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1021
Lords amendment 6 disagreed to.
Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendment 6;
That Mr Andrew Robathan, Mr Mark Francois, Gemma Doyle, Mr David Hamilton and Stephen Gilbert be Members of the Committee;
That Mr Andrew Robathan be the Chair of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee.
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(James Duddridg e .)
Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The media are reporting that the House business for next week has been changed, and that the Backbench Business Committee debate on a European Union referendum Bill is now to be not on Thursday but on Monday. First there is the issue of the media being told first, rather than the House, but secondly, that is Back-Bench business time. Although the Government can allocate that time, they cannot dictate to the Backbench Business Committee what business is done on what particular day. This seems to be a breach of the orders of the House, and I wonder whether you have had any indication that a statement will be made to explain the situation.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Have you been informed by Her Majesty’s Government that, if the business for Monday is to be changed, the designation of the European Union business will change from Back-Bench business to business of Her Majesty’s Government?
You will well remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, that last week Her Majesty’s Government went to great lengths to protect the Hillsborough debate, which was scheduled as a result of an e-petition. The debate on an EU referendum is also in response to a public petition, but the Government’s response seems to be at odds with their previous behaviour.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I find that there is always speculation about Government business, but as the House knows, there is to be a business statement as usual tomorrow, at which the Government will set out the business for next week. That is solely a matter for the Government and not one for the Chair.
Business without Debate
delegated legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Freedom of Information (Designation as Public Authorities) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 5 September, be approved.—(James Duddridge.)
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1022
Northern Ireland Grand Committee
That the Order of the House of 6 September 2011 relating to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee be amended, in paragraph (1), by leaving out the words “re-balancing the economy in Northern Ireland” and inserting the words “applying the principles of the Big Society Agenda to Northern Ireland”. —(James Duddridge.)
petitions
Prisoners’ Rights in Israel
7.52 pm
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It gives me pleasure to present a petition on the issue of the illegal detention without charge of many in the Palestinian community, notwithstanding the Egyptian-brokered deal that has seen the welcome release of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit and good progress on the release of Palestinian detainees. The petition is from Elizabeth Morley and the Free Palestine group in my constituency.
The Petition of the people of Ceredigion,
Declares that the Petitioners are appalled by Israel’s continued illegal detention without charge of thousands of Palestinians, including hundreds of children, women and sick people, held in inhumane conditions, in violation of their basic human rights.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take every possible measure to ensure that Israel complies with all its international legal obligations in this regard, particularly the Fourth Geneva convention.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
Train Fares in West Kent and East Sussex
7.53 pm
Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I am very glad to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) in his place. I know that were it not for the constraints on him as a Minister, he would be joining in the presentation of this petition with his customary enthusiasm and determination.
The Petition of residents of West Kent and East Sussex,
Declares that the Petitioners note the campaign by the Kent and Sussex Courier on Southeastern rail fares and that the Petitioners believe that local rail travellers have been unfairly targeted by double figure fare increases, above the average across the network.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to review its policy on the setting of rail fares.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
For the thousands of rail travellers in west Kent and on the three lines to London through my constituency—the Borough Green and West Malling line, the Tonbridge line and the Edenbridge line—the extortionate increase in rail fares that they face is a matter of huge importance. I am glad of the opportunity to present this petition.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1023
Train Fares in West Kent and East Sussex
7.55 pm
Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): I, too, present a petition that is also strongly supported by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) on behalf of the residents of west Kent and East Sussex, who are calling one last time for Southeastern rail not to increase rail fares so far above the rate of inflation. The petition is supported by more than 2,000 people and I hope that even now Southeastern will think again.
The Petition of residents of West Kent and East Sussex,
Declares that the Petitioners note the campaign by the Kent and Sussex Courier on Southeastern rail fares and that the Petitioners believe that local rail travellers have been unfairly targeted by double figure fare increases, above the average across the network.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to review its policy on the setting of rail fares.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1024
Car Insurance (Northern Ireland)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(James Duddridge.)
7.55 pm
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I am pleased to have secured this debate on an issue that severely impacts on my constituents and others across Northern Ireland. I welcome the fact that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury is here to respond to the debate.
There are considerable problems in the motor insurance market at present, especially in Northern Ireland, where drivers are subject to excessively high insurance costs that are rising rapidly year on year. The problems are not unique to Northern Ireland, but they are particularly striking in our case. We have also found in our research that consumers in Northern Ireland have less choice of insurance providers, with three times fewer companies offering car insurance.
I also welcome the introduction of the Motor Insurance Regulation Bill, promoted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). My right hon. Friend, quite rightly, shone a light on troublesome referral practices and the Bill promises to make much-needed changes to the regulation of the insurance market in England and Wales. Although referrals operate in a different manner in Northern Ireland, the purpose of my speech this evening is to cast light and call for action on many of the issues that plague the operation of the car insurance industry in Northern Ireland. These issues are not entirely commensurate with those raised by my right hon. Friend in relation to England, but must be dealt with in the same direct and purposeful manner. I call on the Minister, where possible, to ensure that that is the case and to use his good influence to press the Northern Ireland Executive to act on the issue.
In August the Consumer Council for Northern Ireland launched a campaign to highlight the cost of car insurance, which I fully support. The Minister will no doubt be aware that the Office of Fair Trading subsequently agreed to undertake an investigation into the car insurance market with a specific focus on Northern Ireland. We must robustly establish why premiums have increased by a reported 40% in the 12 months to March 2011, and why insurance costs are significantly higher in Northern Ireland than in other regions. Indeed, we need not only to assess that, but to redress it. The findings must be robust and the resulting measures must have teeth.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP):
I congratulate the hon. Lady on introducing this debate on an issue that is very important to us all in Northern Ireland. The concern about the insurance premiums is clear, and one reason for those insurance premiums, and the difference in price between Northern Ireland and the UK mainland, is the Compensation Act 2006. Is the hon. Lady aware that in the past year the number of claims notified to the compensation recovery unit in Northern Ireland fell by 23%, whereas in England and Wales it rose by 17%? Is she also aware that last year some 30,000 claims for compensation were made, but that in the past year only 768 were made and their value in the county court is less than £5,000—far below the equivalent figure in England and Wales? Does she feel that, for those reasons alone,
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1025
insurance premiums in Northern Ireland should be reduced? It is quite obvious that the drivers and vehicle users in Northern Ireland are being disadvantaged financially.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. That intervention was a tad long, Mr Shannon.
Ms Ritchie: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his rather long intervention. I none the less agree with him, and I will come to that point later in my speech.
The extent of the problem is stark. The Consumer Council report, “The Cost of Insurance in Northern Ireland”, published in March 2009, indicated that consumers in Northern Ireland were paying 84% more on average than those in the rest of the UK. Furthermore, five Northern Irish cities ranked among the top 10 most expensive areas in the UK. Relatively expensive car insurance premiums prevail throughout Northern Ireland.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I thank the hon. Lady for giving way, and I appreciate the fact that she has brought this matter to the Floor of the House. Does she agree that the OFT investigation is crucial, because although the Consumer Council report is useful in highlighting particular issues, it is flawed in a number of respects? For example, it compared median rather than best available prices in the UK. It also compared only products available on comparison websites, which is restrictive when we consider the wider available market.
Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Like her, I believe that the OFT report is vital in making critical recommendations that I hope will result in the lowering of insurance premiums. I hope that the report has the teeth to deal with this difficult and vexatious issue.
According to evidence, car insurance premiums in Northern Ireland have increased by almost 73% in the past two years. The situation is even worse for younger drivers, whose premiums, according to research, have increased by 112%. Young people face severe difficulties in entering the job market, and the prohibitively high cost of motor insurance is yet another barrier to their finding work.
The average yearly car insurance premium in Northern Ireland is now £923.90, compared with the national average of £525. I am concerned that that, with the increasing cost of fuel, will force some people off the road altogether, or that it will lead to an increase in motorists driving illegally without insurance. I am sure the Minister agrees that we must ensure that that does not happen.
Those problems are compounded by the restricted range of companies offering premiums in Northern Ireland, which limits competition and drives up prices. I urge the Minister to address, and where possible to remove, any barriers to companies that wish to enter the market in Northern Ireland.
Two fundamental arguments are put forward to justify the high costs of motor insurance in Northern Ireland. The first argument is that Northern Ireland is a case apart, because its demographics and road layouts bring
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1026
an increased risk of incidents on our roads, and the second is that the Northern Ireland legal system places a higher burden on insurers.
To begin with, the evidence that Northern Ireland has a very young population is greatly exaggerated. Indeed, we have a proportion of young people similar to that found in English regions such as London. Likewise, a lack of motorway coverage has been cited as a reason for increased premiums, because statistically those are the safest road type. However, maps show that Northern Ireland has a relatively consistent motorway density compared with regions in the UK and Europe. Moreover, some of the fundamental actuarial evidence regarding the number of accidents, claims and casualties on our highways weighs against any of the debatable factors regarding demographics or road layout.
Those facts must be kept at the forefront of our mind when considering the claimed justification for the increased cost of premiums. They are rising at a time when Northern Ireland is experiencing a decline in the number of road traffic accidents: 2010—the most recent year on record—saw the lowest number of road deaths since records began in 1931. Naturally, every death on our roads is a tragedy, but we must commend the work done to improve safety.
There are some basic facts that are hard to reconcile with rising insurance costs. The number of road traffic accidents reported to the police service has dropped over the past decade from nearly 40,000 per year in 2000 to about 30,000 per year in 2009. The number of compensation claims is decreasing, whereas in England and Wales the numbers are rising. More specifically, according to a National Audit Office report published at the beginning of the year, the number of claims reported to the compensation recovery unit fell by 23% in the decade up to 2009. In short, the trend is clear: although accidents and claims are decreasing, the cost of insurance is increasing. I ask the Minister to give detailed consideration to that fundamental point.
Naomi Long: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way a second time. Does she accept that one of the factors cited was the higher compensation paid out in Northern Ireland, which was attributed largely to the fact that juries have been involved in such decisions for much longer than in England and Wales? Critically, however, compensation levels did not increase but insurance premiums did, so it cannot be argued that that was what led to increased premiums.
Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Lady for her useful intervention.
All those facts weigh heavily against any argument that the specific demographic or topographical factors in Northern Ireland justify the increasing costs of insurance, and are extremely difficult to relate to the draconian rise in the cost of insurance premiums.
It has also been suggested, by the Association of British Insurers and others, that the legal system in Northern Ireland imposes increased costs on insurers. However, when compared with what happens in England and Wales, many of the factors in Northern Ireland would be expected to act in the opposite direction. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn rightly highlighted the impact of referral fees on insurance premiums in England. It must be noted that a statutory
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1027
prohibition is in force against solicitors paying referral fees in Northern Ireland. Given that the payment of referral fees to claims management companies has frequently been cited as a significant contributory factor to increasing premiums in England, its absence would be expected to drive down the costs of insurance in Northern Ireland. However, that does not appear to be the case.
I am certainly not claiming that the system in operation is perfect. Indeed, although referral fees are prohibited for solicitors, other agents, such as brokers, credit hire companies and repair garages, may receive them. Although credit hire companies offer a useful service for non-blame drivers, they also raise the cost for insurers, and we must have firm regulations to remove the potential for the exploitation of accidents or those involved in collisions. The claims advice service is an important step in doing that, and should be commended. Another factor cited as a reason for increasing insurance prices in England is the practice of “no win, no fee”. Such a regime does not operate in Northern Ireland. Indeed, the fact that any claimant would have to invest their own money, or else find a solicitor willing to fund the costs, is a powerful disincentive against speculative claimants.
Jim Shannon: I shall be very quick with this intervention, Mr Deputy Speaker. Does the hon. Lady think that specific consideration needs to be given to social need and the fact that Northern Ireland is clearly, as we all know, a rural community? There are special circumstances in Northern Ireland. Does she think that those should be considered as well?
Ms Ritchie: I take on board what the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—my neighbouring constituency—has said. Like him, I represent a rural constituency and am well aware of issues such as a lack of jobs, inaccessibility, and the economic burden on people. All those can place increasing burdens on people at a time when insurance premiums are increasing.
All that, taken together with the absence of referral fees for solicitors, suggests that Northern Ireland offers a legal system that should act to keep costs down and be at least as effective as the system in England and Wales, if not more so. I would like the Minister to note my concern that that is certainly not reflected in the cost of insurance. I accept that the cost of claims for minor injuries in Northern Ireland can be higher than in England and Wales, partially as a result of there being no recourse to the small claims court for such cases, but opening up the small claims court to such cases is not necessarily the remedy, as that will bring its own risks and problems. However, more needs to be done to ensure that spurious and over-inflated claims do not clog up the system and raise costs for honest motorists. We must increase the burden of medical evidence that is required before establishing cases of whiplash or other, similar injuries, not to penalise the vulnerable—those with genuine, medically verifiable injuries would in no way be affected—but to ensure that the police and medical authorities work together so that claims are paid only in cases involving genuine accidents and genuine injuries.
I have dealt at length with the figures and the legal issues, but behind the wealth of statistics are the everyday problems that the high cost of insurance represents.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1028
Those living on low incomes or in rural areas can simply no longer afford to keep a car on the road. Many young motorists and their parents in my constituency have told me of their struggles to secure affordable insurance. They are understandably concerned about the discrepancy in insurance prices between Northern Ireland and other regions in Britain. Through having to pay excessive insurance fees, households in Northern Ireland are being discriminated against. That unfair practice has been in place for too long, adversely affecting those, young and old, who depend on their cars for work, particularly in areas where public transport provision is limited.
The broader context is that the economy is suffering, with record numbers of young people out of work, and that is only exacerbated by restricting people’s use of motor vehicles. We need a dynamic, mobile work force, but making the cost of car insurance so expensive puts up a barrier to our economic success, especially for the young, among whom the unemployment rate is estimated at 18%—almost one in five cannot find a job—compared with an overall unemployment rate in Northern Ireland of 7.6%. Excessive insurance premiums adversely affect young people, preventing them from offering the skill of driving to potential employers. In these extremely challenging economic times, I would ask the Minister to consider any measures that would make insurance more affordable for young people, particularly when driving relates to their employment.
Insurance costs have a real impact on people, young and old, who need to be mobile for social and economic reasons. I hope that I have made clear the scale of the problem faced by our motorists. The insurance industry must stabilise its premiums so that hard-pressed motorists get a fair deal when they purchase their vehicle insurance. I seek assurances from the Minister that he recognises the problem and will act in unison with ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive to address the problem in the light of any recommendations from the upcoming Office of Fair Trading report.
Day in, day out, my Northern Ireland colleagues and I face constituents who come to us about the rising cost of car insurance. I heard it again today when I participated in a BBC Northern Ireland debate. There were numerous calls from young people, as well as middle-aged to elderly people, all complaining about the lack of competition and the lack of insurance companies offering different insurance rates. However, the most abiding comments that I heard were about how people wanted insurance costs driven down so that they could drive their cars and access the employment market.
I thank you for your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, and look forward to the Minister’s response.
8.14 pm
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban):
I congratulate the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate. The increased cost of motor insurance has been one of the recurring themes in my postbag since I became a Minister, and those communications have gathered momentum in recent months. The matter affects all parts of the country. It also affects all age groups, but particularly young drivers. At a time when people feel that their cost of living is under pressure, it is important to ensure that
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1029
the motor insurance market works in such a way as to help consumers and that it tries, whenever possible, to keep the cost of insurance as low as possible.
According to calculations from the Association of British Insurers, motor insurance premiums in 2010 amounted to £10.7 billion, and claims amounted to £10.3 billion. When the other costs of the motor insurance business were taken into account, however, that translated to an underwriting loss of £1.8 billion. The cost of motor insurance to the insurance companies themselves, therefore, is quite significant, and it is loss making. There are clearly some real challenges involved, and we need to think carefully about how we can bring down the costs for insurers, so that that can feed through to the costs for drivers. That is what we are trying to focus on.
The Government firmly believe that businesses and consumers get the best outcomes from financial services if markets are competitive and properly regulated. At the same time, disproportionate or overbearing regulation imposes costs on firms that are passed on to users, either through higher charges and lower returns or through a reduction in choice and competition. Our challenge is to strike the right balance.
It is clear that, on average, motorists faced significant increases in their premiums in the year ending 31 March 2011. That is adding substantially to the costs of motoring in the UK. The hon. Lady was right to say that we need to establish the full facts and the reasons behind any increase, and to ascertain whether there are any consumer or competition issues that need to be addressed in order to improve the functioning of the market.
The Office of Fair Trading therefore issued a call for evidence in September. The OFT is asking insurers and others for their views on a number of aspects of the private motor insurance market that might raise competition or consumer issues. This is an important piece of work; it will improve the OFT’s understanding of the market and put it in a better position to determine whether there are aspects of the market that are not functioning well and how best to address the issues.
The OFT has been actively engaging with participants in the insurance market, trade bodies, the Government, regulatory agencies and consumer groups by issuing information requests. The research that the Consumer Council for Northern Ireland has done will be helpful in informing that process, and it is to its credit that it has carried out that work. I would encourage people to think about any evidence that they can provide. The deadline for written responses to the OFT’s call for evidence closed last week, but it is still open to contributions, and I am sure that it would welcome ongoing input and views. It plans to publish its findings in December this year, and will consider next steps in the light of evidence that it receives.
The hon. Lady focused on the cost of motor insurance in Northern Ireland, and talked about some of the factors that affect it. A research paper on the same issue has been prepared for the Northern Ireland Assembly. It strikes a slightly different note from that of the hon. Lady. It states that
“the relatively high rate of accidents and related casualties in Northern Ireland, combined with higher compensation levels and legal fees suggests that insurers do, in fact, face considerably higher costs when transacting car insurance in Northern Ireland.”
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1030
“the higher car insurance premium rates paid by Northern Ireland drivers might be reflective of higher risks and costs associated with transacting car insurance business here, rather than a discriminatory pricing regime.”
It is interesting to note that, having looked at the cost of motor insurance, the research paper goes on to look at the cost of house insurance, and to compare Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom. There is clearly a debate to be had about the costs, and the evidence provided by the Consumer Council contrasts with that in the research paper produced by the Assembly. That is why I think it is important for the OFT to look at those particular areas and to understand the reasons why premiums in Northern Ireland might be higher than those in the rest of the UK.
Underpinning the pricing of insurers is the use of risk-based premiums. Insurers take a number of different factors into account when deciding the level of premiums and those factors correlate with the risk being covered. For example, some insurers group postal code areas in order to ensure that all those in a similar risk area are covered in a similar way, but the level of data used in underwriting is a commercial decision for firms, which the Government do not seek to control.
While a postcode does not itself determine whether or not a person will make a claim, it can be an accurate indicator of the likelihood. It is often used in cases where there are hotspots for crash fraud. The three worst hotspots are not in Northern Ireland, but where fraud is used to trigger claims, driving up costs for insurers, those costs are, sadly, borne by all those who drive.
There are other issues. For example, the Government were very disappointed with the recent European Court of Justice ruling that the use of gender as a risk factor by insurers should not result in individual differences in premiums and benefits for men and women. We expect this to have a negative impact on consumers and lead to price rises for motor insurance for young women drivers who are seen to be a safer risk than young male drivers.
What we need to do is to tackle some of the underlying causes of costs for insurers. The hon. Lady was eloquent in identifying some of the reductions in road traffic accidents. She is right to point out that it is incongruous to see road traffic accidents falling in number when motor insurance claims are rising. There is an issue there, and we need to get to the bottom of it.
We are committed to the implementation of the Jackson proposals, including the reform of conditional fee arrangements and a ban on referral fees, which we believe will reduce the risk of frivolous claims. Clearly, as justice is a devolved matter, different arrangements are in place as between the mainland and Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady is right that we need to work with our colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive to look at where there are differences in the legal regime that could be dealt with to help reduce the cost of claims.
We are looking at introducing a statutory ban on referral fees for England and Wales. Since 2004, when the Law Society lifted the ban for solicitors in England and Wales paying referral fees, people have been encouraged to make claims. That has led to personal injury claims rising at a time when the number of collisions and
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1031
casualties on the road is falling, yet the number and overall cost of bodily injury claims has steadily increased. The hon. Lady spoke about whiplash claims earlier. It is estimated that they cost insurers about £2 billion each year—a cost borne, of course, by those who pay their motor insurance premiums.
As I have said, we are trying to tackle the issue of the payment of fees in England and Wales, but the prohibition remains in place in Northern Ireland. The hon. Lady mentioned that other people might also pay referral fees. The Assembly and the Executive need to think carefully about how to strengthen the current ban on referral fees in legislation. The hon. Lady should take that up with her colleagues.
Other issues drive up the costs of insurance. The hon. Lady talked about the number of young people who want to drive to work or to college to study. What is happening is that they are in part being priced out of the market, but uninsured driving adds about £30 to
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1032
each insurance premium. We want to ensure that young people take out the insurance cover that they need to enable them to get to college, while tackling the number of young people who are not taking out insurance cover as a means of driving down the cost of insurance.
In conclusion, the hon. Lady has raised an important point. It is a complex issue, as her speech set out. We want to work with the OFT and with the Assembly and Executive to find ways to reduce the cost of motor insurance in Northern Ireland as well as throughout the UK. The OFT report is an important part of that. We want to work with stakeholders so that we get the right outcome to drive those costs down so that people can use their cars for leisure, education and work without paying through the nose for that privilege.
8.24 pm
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1033
Deferred Division
That this House, at its rising on Tuesday 15 November 2011, do adjourn till Monday 21 November 2011; at its rising on Tuesday 20 December 2011, do adjourn till Tuesday 10 January 2012; and at its rising on Thursday 9 February 2012, do adjourn till Monday 20 February 2012.
The House divided:
Ayes 306, Noes 95.
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Bebb, Guto
Beckett, rh Margaret
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Mr Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Caton, Martin
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Tony
Davey, Mr Edward
David, Mr Wayne
Davies, Glyn
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Docherty, Thomas
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Edwards, Jonathan
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Chris
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, rh Mr Frank
Field, Mr Mark
Fovargue, Yvonne
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Mr Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hermon, Lady
Hinds, Damian
Hollingbery, George
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Jackson, Glenda
James, Margot
Jarvis, Dan
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Lavery, Ian
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Main, Mrs Anne
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McDonnell, Dr Alasdair
McKechin, Ann
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mearns, Ian
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Andrew
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Parish, Neil
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Perkins, Toby
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Angela
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
NOES
Anderson, Mr David
Austin, Ian
Baker, Steve
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brown, Lyn
Bryant, Chris
Campbell, Mr Gregory
Creagh, Mary
Danczuk, Simon
Davies, Geraint
Davies, Philip
Dobbin, Jim
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Doyle, Gemma
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flynn, Paul
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Greenwood, Lilian
Gwynne, Andrew
Hamilton, Mr David
Hanson, rh Mr David
Healey, rh John
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hood, Mr Jim
Hosie, Stewart
Johnson, Diana
Keeley, Barbara
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lazarowicz, Mark
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mann, John
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McCrea, Dr William
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
Meale, Sir Alan
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murray, Ian
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Paisley, Ian
Pound, Stephen
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Roy, Mr Frank
Russell, Bob
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Simpson, David
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Timms, rh Stephen
Turner, Mr Andrew
Turner, Karl
Walley, Joan
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wilson, Sammy
Wishart, Pete
Wright, David
Question accordingly agreed to.
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1034
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1035
19 Oct 2011 : Column 1036