Examination of Witnesses (Questions 187-241)
Q187 Chair: Mr
Scott and Mr Porter. Mr Porter, your members are usually trying
to get into this building and here you are.
Aaron Porter: I
have even put a suit on.
Q188 Chair: The
Select Committee has invited you to come in here. Maybe it is
insurance for future years to have you give evidence to us today,
but you are most welcome.
You have followed the evidence session so far, so
you know what we are talking about and I do not have to give you
a long introduction. Can I apologise at the start that Members
of this Committee are also serving on the Police Bill Committee
so they have to dash out to vote. They then return after the vote
is over. It is no reflection on the quality of your evidence;
it is just parliamentary business. Perhaps I could start with
you, Mr Scott. What are the benefits for this country of overseas
students coming to study in the United Kingdom?
Dominic Scott:
I think, if I have time, they are probably fivefold.
Chair: As briefly as possible.
Dominic Scott:
I will make them headlines. You start with the income, and I think
that is very well documented: £6 billion is a modest estimate.
The British Council has the most reliable figure broken down by
sector. Income also means jobs and means employment; the number
of people who are employed in the education sector is very substantial
indeed. Perhaps Aaron might like to talk about the benefits to
British students of having an international global dimension on
campuses, which is fundamentally important. I spent 20 years before
my current job with British Council working overseas, and so reputation
is one of the huge benefits to the UK. I know that in particular
British business schools, who have huge investment in this area
with 4,500 students doing MBAs alone, see that as—in terms
of business links around the world—tremendously important.
There is a cultural and intellectual dimension, and finally there
is the way in which international students maintain some of the
less popular courses in the UK: STEM subject courses. So we have
an intellectual capital, we have an economic investment, and we
have foreign policy and business links. The whole package comes
together.
Q189 Chair: Mr
Porter, you, of course, studied at one of the finest universities
in the world.
Aaron Porter: Great
City.
Q190 Chair: Can
you tell me in your travels you must come across quite a lot of
students. I am not talking about the demonstrations, I am talking
about studying. Have you met many bogus students?
Aaron Porter: I
personally have not come across any students that I am aware of
that have introduced themselves as being bogus to me, no.
Q191 Chair: Would
you have come across any institutions and organisations that promote
bogus colleges or where you can see abuse in the education system?
Aaron Porter: Not
that I am aware of. However, I think it is important to look at
the evidence in terms of the number of institutions, particularly
at college level, that have had their status withdrawn. I think
the figures are from 12,000 down to 2,300. So I am confident that
the reforms brought in in April have ensured that the system is
a great deal more robust now. I do think we need to spend some
time to consider what the impacts of those changes have been.
Q192 Chair: Tell
us if you would about the costs and benefits of international
students. Why do we need all these international students coming
here?
Aaron Porter: I
think it is worth restating the fact that international student
recruitment, rather than displacing home recruitment, actually
funds the expansion of home recruitment in UK universities, particularly
in vulnerable subjects like science, technology, engineering and
maths, but also at postgraduate level where the extortionate fees
for international students certainly subsidise the provision for
home students. So, while there remains to be a cap on home recruitment,
actually if international student recruitment were to be reduced
it would almost certainly lead to an even greater pressure on
the BIS budget and would probably lead to an even greater cut
to home student numbers over the coming years. I think it is also
worth restating that the international reputation that international
students brings to the UK also means that it brings an advantage
to the UK system, which is important.
Q193 Chair: Is
there evidence that having arrived here and paid their fees, when
it comes to working some of these international students are displacing
British students from getting jobs?
Aaron Porter: I
think the evidence in this area is sketchy and certainly I think
it would be important to get a definitive answer in this area.
It is also important to relate—in regards to post-study
work it is a fixed time period of two years. So even if the evidence
were to suggest that there was some form of displacement, it at
least is time bound, although—
Q194 Chair: Yes,
we will come on to that later, but specifically the 20 hours that
they can work—
Aaron Porter: Part-time
work.
Chair: The part-time work,
do you know many PhD students working on the tills at Tesco in
Leicester?
Aaron Porter: It
is true to say that there are some, but the main reason for this
or the two main reasons for this, one, in terms of competitiveness
to get jobs in and around the university, it is incredibly competitive
and, therefore, there is a challenge in terms of those students
being able to be facilitated by their institution. Indeed, it
would not be able to facilitate all of those students. But also
it is a mark of the economic climate in which we are in, which
is fiercely competitive. My instinct is that it is the students
that are most organised and most prepared on entry and starting
a university course, irrespective of whether they are a home student
or an international student, that tend to get the jobs. I have
to say I think that if all students were very well prepared, it
is those that tend to show innovation that get the employment.
Q195 Chair: I
will come to you in one second, unless it is specifically on the
point?
Dominic Scott:
It is. I would just like to remind the Committee that on the question
of part time jobs, international students are not allowed to take
any permanent vacancies. They are only allowed to take casual
jobs. So there is no actual conflict or displacement with permanent
jobs and permanent vacancies.
Q196 Mark Reckless:
You observed that the domestic students are subsidised by international
students.
Chair: Sorry, Mr Reckless,
could you speak up for the purposes of—
Mark Reckless: With domestic
students subsidised by international students, you then describe
the fees charged by the presumably willing sellers of the universities
to the presumably willing foreign student buyers as "extortionate".
On what basis do you use that language?
Aaron Porter: Obviously,
I am not here to get into a particular debate about tuition fees,
but it is worth remarking that in our research the average fee
paid by the students who responded was £25,000 per year.
Of course, that is widely variable depending on the level of the
course and also the subject studied. An international student
studying an MBA might well expect to pay £50,000 or £60,000
a year. Other programmes may be as little as £7,000 or £8,000.
I am prepared to withdraw the word "extortionate" but
I am just kind of looking at the data.
Q197 Mr Winnick:
Mr Porter, as far as the National Union of Students are concerned,
Ministers—am I not right—would almost certainly say
you are not in the business as an organisation in wanting to see
the number of students reduced?
Aaron Porter: That
is correct. I would like to see all those that have the ability
and aspiration—
Q198 Mr Winnick:
I should have qualified that: students from abroad reduced?
Aaron Porter: I
see no reason why there needs to be a reduction in student numbers
from outside of the EU coming to study in the UK for the reasons
that I believe it adds to the academic community, it adds to the
cultural community, and it thirdly, and perhaps importantly for
this Committee, helps to fund places for home students.
Q199 Mr Winnick:
So, if you like, to be the devil's advocate, any proposals from
Government to reduce students coming to study in the United Kingdom
almost certainly—and perhaps I do not have to qualify with
the word "almost"—would meet with NUS opposition?
Aaron Porter: That
is not necessarily the case. I want to see a system where there
can be confidence in counting in and counting out of the students.
I do not want to see a system where there is a huge bleeding of
students that come in to study in the country and then find themselves
remaining in the country if that is not what the criteria is for
their studying in the UK. So I want to see a robust system. I
believe that we have made significant progress in delivering a
robust system.
But in terms of student numbers specifically on your
question, I would be in opposition to a system that saw a reduction
in the numbers of students studying in the UK. I would just perhaps
end by saying that I am unconvinced by the rationale of the inclusion
of students, being a transient population that almost in its entirety
comes in and out of the country, in net migration figures.
Q200 Mr Winnick:
To either of you, you know, of course, that there is a sort of
atmosphere even more so at a time of growing unemployment, the
recession and what has happened in the country at large, about
immigration, which was quite clear in the general election and
what followed. Do you think that students are being targeted wrongly
because of this atmosphere that is developing and will no doubt
continue as long as the present economic climate is what it is,
Mr Scott?
Dominic Scott:
A question to me? I have certainly rehearsed in my paper why I
think they are a totally irrelevant target. I think the Financial
Times put it more crisply in an article yesterday when they
said, "They eat, they drink, they spend money, they do not
drive down wages or weigh heavily on public services". I
think if we are looking at where real public concern is, it is
about impact on public services. International students are entirely
irrelevant to that debate. So I think I can quite understand the
immigration concern, but I think we have the wrong targets and
the wrong mechanism here to deal with the concern.
Q201 Mr Winnick:
Presumably that article was not written by Migrant Watch. Mr Porter?
Aaron Porter: I
have nothing to add on that. I think that is a perfectly adequate
answer.
Q202 Mr Winnick:
In the NUS paper, on page 4 you say, "Proposals to enforce
a return to the country of origin in order to apply for a different
course make no sense." We know what the Government intends
to do, that if a student wants to go on a different course, goes
back to his own country, applies to the High Commission or Embassy
as the case may be if it is a Commonwealth country, some would
say, "Well, what is wrong with that? You have come for a
particular course. You have completed that course. You want to
go to a different course. Go back and apply and then it will be
considered on the basis of evidence of what you have done in the
UK and whether you are a genuine student or not".
Aaron Porter: Let
me start by recognising the importance, as I say, of being able
to count in and count out student numbers, and so safeguards in
order to facilitate that I accept are important. But I do think
the lengths of going back to your own country when, for instance,
44% of non-EU students that study at HE have been recruited from
an FE college, when you are talking about the sizeable numbers
of progression either from foundation or other courses in colleges
on to university and then for some students from undergraduate
level to a masters or to a research degree, it seems excessive
to force that person to go back to their country of origin, not
least because of problems with timing in terms of when you might
be clear about when you can go back—for example, because
of when your final exam might be—and trying to book a flight,
as many students would have to do. So there is a financial implication.
I think there is a logistical implication and we need to find
a way to facilitate that student still being able to check in
officially in this country, especially in instances where a student
is particularly keen on progressing within this country. Forcing
them to go back to their country of origin seems excessive.
Q203 Mr Winnick:
Mr Scott, same view?
Dominic Scott:
Yes. There is certainly an operational difficulty that the timescale
between getting your examination results, getting your firm offer
from your new sponsor and then having to go home and process and
sit in the queue just would not work for the system. We have a
mismatch between a UKBA requirement and educational systems. But,
more importantly, what we are saying is that a student who has
been here legitimately and has satisfied and passed their course,
is now somehow suspect, has to close their bank account, end their
lease and accommodation, pack all their bags and go home and start
again at the back of the queue. I think it is not a sensible way
to progress. They have already shown themselves to be legitimate
students and I think we ought to enable them to progress through
our system as generally we have done in the past.
Q204 Mr Winnick:
Why do you think Ministers are rather keen on doing so if according
to both of you it seems illogical for the reasons stated?
Dominic Scott:
I quite understand and I think the phrase is a psychological break.
I quite understand that there may be ways in which we do a psychological
break, but to force people and the carbon footprint of sending
50,000 students home during a peak time in the summer seems totally
unproductive.
Q205 Dr Huppert:
A couple of questions that follow up from some of Mr Winnick's
questions. One is there is a suggestion that a lot of people we
encounter have an interest in keeping the student numbers going.
Rather remarkably, we have been rather unsuccessful at finding
any organisations or people, with one exception, who are against
the idea of having student numbers. Are you aware of any other
organisations that might take a position that is different from
your own in that sense?
Aaron Porter: Perhaps
the UK Independence Party, I am not sure.
Q206 Dr Huppert:
Because we are struggling to find them. Can I then turn to this
question, which has been touched on several times, of whether
students do count as immigrants? Do you have an idea of how one
should define an immigrant for the purpose of issuing visas and
counting them?
Dominic Scott:
Shall I take that initially? Two points on statistics. I think
many countries have not used the concept of migrant; they have
used the concept of settlement. Australia uses the concept of
settlement. It is permanent settlement that triggers the migration
statistics, and that is what they look at. I think it would be
far more sensible for the UK to look at settlement, look at ways
of breaking links to settlement, and controlling settlement rather
than migration.
Q207 Chair: That
I think is the Government's aim.
Dominic Scott:
That I think would be good, but we have the concept at the moment
of migrant, which is anyone here for more than 12 months, which
brings students into the whole debate, while if we moved it to
settlement we could take this transient population out of that
dimension and say it is the settlement that is the sensitivity.
Q208 Dr Huppert:
How does Australia measure that? How does it establish that? Would
it be something that Britain could easily transition to?
Dominic Scott:
Yes, I think it could. We have looked at the Australian system
with points in the first place. I think we could look again at
the Australian system whereby what they are looking is, of course,
to encourage migration into the country but, therefore, they control
settlement very carefully. I think there are a lot of lessons
to be learnt there.
Q209 Chair: Mr
Scott, the Australians were following a very similar course as
far as students were concerned a few years ago and now they have
changed their mind to see how they can allow more students in.
So is it a good idea to follow what Australia has done?
Dominic Scott:
I think Australia has the most sophisticated intelligence on student
movement of any country in the world. They will be able to tell
you how many students came last month into the country. For the
UK, we are quite often six months or a year behind. Australia
has some of the most sophisticated systems in the world.
Q210 Chair: You
are tempting the Select Committee on an overseas visit.
Dominic Scott:
An away day, I think, an away day to Australia, excellent idea.
Chair: We will have to
resist; we do not have the money.
Q211 Dr Huppert:
Indeed. It is very tempting to go but I think it would not be
appropriate. How do they measure such information? What do they
have that we do not that allows them to know those figures?
Dominic Scott:
They have a far closer industry and government relationship, and
I think this is possibly a fundamental point. At the moment, over
the last couple of years, UKBA, Home Office and the education
sector have kept a wide berth of each other and they have bounced
proposals. There has not been real joint working. In Australia
they have complete close industry and they see it as a government
priority. Their Home Office and their immigration authorities
work with their sector bodies. You see them jointly at conferences,
jointly taking the same line with the same objectives. Here we
seem to have two different objectives at play and we have to find
a way of breaking that and getting the two parts to work together.
Chair: Nicola Blackwood
has a quick supplementary.
Q212 Nicola Blackwood:
Sorry, just a quick one. I was quite interested in your comments
about a difference between somebody coming in for a short time
and somebody coming in permanently to settle. In this country,
what would you consider the point at which settlement occurred?
Because if you come in to do a pathway course you are probably
here for one year; then an undergraduate course, that is another
three years; then a Masters, that is one or two years. If you
then stayed to do a doctorate, you are moving up to nine or 10
years, so at what point does a temporary transient resident become
a permanent resident, especially given that if you had that length
of study you are quite likely to then try and work in the UK and
probably settle? So where would you draw the line?
Dominic Scott:
Can I make one very brief point and then give it to Aaron, to
say I am no expert in settlement; however, I do think that if
you have been in this country for 10 years, spending probably
£15,000 a year on your education, the small numbers of people
who have made that sort of investment are not actually or should
not be of concern to the UK public.
Q213 Chair: We
do not have figures, though, about the 10 years?
Dominic Scott:
About how many last?
Q214 Nicola Blackwood:
How many last for that long in our education system?
Dominic Scott:
No, but it is a tiny proportion. We know they last six or seven
years and come in through the—
Chair: We can certainly
ask the Minister.
Dominic Scott:
But up to 10 would be tiny.
Q215 Chair: We
can certainly ask the Minister. He is coming in and he ought to
know the answer. Mr Porter, do you want to add anything?
Aaron Porter: I
would just add that is still a succession of time-bound permits
to be in the country. I would echo Dominic insofar as that it
is a very small number of people that would last such a small
period of time. But I think if we are talking about a period of
more than two years outside of any timebound provision,
then I think we are in the territory of settlement rather than
migration.
Q216 Alun Michael:
One of the problems is at the edges. The issue of bogus colleges
was touched on earlier—leave that on one side. The question
has come up last week from English UK and the British Council
and again today in evidence of inconsistency of standards or the
question of whether standards are consistent. The issue of accreditation
of schools offering courses to international students becomes
quite crucial in order to make sure that we draw the line. Do
you believe there are problems with the current accreditation
system?
Aaron Porter: It
is my belief that the fact that it is so widespread leads to problems.
I think we certainly need to see a rationalisation of the system
as it stands.
Q217 Alun Michael:
Would you agree, Mr Scott?
Dominic Scott:
I would. At the moment, there are four licensed accreditation
bodies. I happen to be on the Executive Council of one of them;
I therefore have an interest. The part of the jigsaw that has
been missing is Government oversight of consistency and standards.
I think you heard before that the original architecture had Ofsted
convening a consistency and standards board that oversaw the various
accreditation bodies. That has not met for the last year and so
it is a part of the jigsaw that needs to be brought back in to
ensure those consistency and standards.
Q218 Alun Michael:
It is surely in everybody's interest that there should be clarity,
for reputational reasons as well as for certainty, that the quality
of accreditation is absolutely clear. So could I ask perhaps Mr
Porter first, should we move to a situation where there is one
body that does accreditation at a consistent level, albeit with
oversight from any Government body?
Aaron Porter: My
instinct is that that would seem a more sensible way of doing
things. I would need to be convinced why there should be more
than one and I am not aware of any reasons as to why that is,
partly because I do not have any operational detail on that. Equally,
I have not been made aware of reasons as to why there is more
than one.
Alun Michael: Thank you.
Mr Scott?
Dominic Scott:
Can I just repeat a point that has been made in part by other
witnesses? The question I am asking myself is what is the problem
or where is the problem. If you go back four years, we had 12,000
colleges on the DIUS register. At the beginning of the pointsbased
system this was reduced—
Q219 Alun Michael:
Yes, but forgive me, the Committee did a report on the question
of bogus colleges and those problems, and a lot has happened since
then. Can we just focus on the situation we have now where, with
the four bodies that have been referred to, there appears to be
some evidence and certainly concerns that the level of accreditation
is not consistent. So how do we deal with that, today's problem?
Dominic Scott:
I would still maintain that down to 2,300 colleges we have a much
tighter system.
Alun Michael: Sure, I
understand that.
Dominic Scott:
I have seen myself very little evidence of the difficulty of the
standards. There is one issue and one issue alone that I have
heard, and that is that a college can lose its accreditation from
one agency and gain it with another. That needs to be plugged,
but I do not myself know of any other substantial problems that
have been identified.
Q220 Alun Michael:
But if it is possible to lose accreditation from one accrediting
body and gain it with another, that seems in itself to be evidence
of inconsistency.
Dominic Scott:
I entirely agree, but it has only happened in a small number of
cases.
Alun Michael: But it has
happened.
Dominic Scott:
I do not think it necessarily means you need to amalgamate the
two bodies.
Q221 Alun Michael:
It does not necessarily, but wouldn't you accept that that reputational
damage from however minute a number is something that is causing
problems for the student body as a whole?
Dominic Scott:
I do not know of any reputational damage. I know it has given
problems to the UKBA but I do not know of any international reputational
damage.
Q222 Alun Michael:
Well, there is reputational damage that we are hearing in the
evidence of this Committee.
Dominic Scott:
I have not seen it.
Alun Michael: Mr Porter?
Aaron Porter: Well,
I am keen to consider solutions as to how we overcome inconsistency
that does materialise. Again, I am looking for reasons as to why
there needs to be more than one body and I would be keen if people
have that thought that they should put that forward during this
process.
Q223 Nicola Blackwood:
Just following on slightly from that, do you come into contact
with students who have been recruited by agents?
Aaron Porter: From
time to time, yes.
Q224 Nicola Blackwood:
Do you think that they would feel more secure if they were approached
by an accredited agent?
Aaron Porter: Yes,
there are question marks about the validity of that authentication
process and I suspect some kind of authenticity would be helpful,
yes.
Q225 Nicola Blackwood:
Could I move on to the post-study work route and the proposed
closure? You have expressed this as a particular problem and that
you have received comments from students saying that this was
one of the significant reasons why they came. You have quoted
certain courses that require work experience as part of it. Now,
I understand the Government is not planning to entirely remove
those kinds of courses; they are just going to change the study
to work ratio slightly. What sort of impact do you think this
is going to have and what sort of evidence do you have to back
those concerns up?
Aaron Porter: First,
in an environment where the relationship between education and
employment is becoming increasingly important, the consideration
of the opportunity to get some kind of work experience either
within the course or immediately afterwards is of growing consideration
to all prospective students, and international students are the
same in that regard. The research that we provided the Committee
with indicates that in the region of just over 70% of respondents—and
the sample size that we have is around 8,500 current non-EU students—said
that post-study work was of huge importance to them in choosing
the UK. In an international marketplace, we consider and the evidence
from students is that the provision for PSW gives a competitive
advantage to the UK over some of our other competitor countries
that, if removed, could potentially seriously damage the UK's
reputation as a destination.
Q226 Nicola Blackwood:
Can I ask how many students responded to the survey?
Aaron Porter: 8,500.
Q227 Nicola Blackwood:
As I see it, there are two different kinds of post-study work.
There is some post-study work that is required to fulfil the training
element of your course; so architecture, barrister, and so on.
But then there are other courses like English where it is less
clear what relationship the post-study work route has to that
qualification.
Aaron Porter: Yes,
that is right. This is both anecdotal and from the evidence. Lots
of international students simply cite that the opportunity to
have worked for a fixed period of time in the UK is helpful for
them when they go back to their country of origin. That helps
to make the overall UK offer somewhat more advantageous compared
to other competitor countries. Then you are right to say that
in some courses it is vital for the completion and the robustness
of the academic qualification.
Q228 Nicola Blackwood:
So do you think one year would be sufficient or do you think two
years is necessary?
Aaron Porter: I
would be open-minded to looking at one year.
Q229 Nicola Blackwood:
Did you have any comments, Mr Scott?
Dominic Scott:
Firstly, the Migration Advisory Committee, when it looked at this
18 months ago, came up with the phrase that they had seen no evidence
of job displacement with British graduates, and I think that still
holds true. Secondly, they looked at reducing to one year as one
of the options and they concluded that many employers would not
wish to take on someone just for one year because it would not
be worth training them, recruiting them and bringing them on,
thinking that it was only for such a short time. So I can see
one year might be a compromise but it is not going to be attractive
to employers and, therefore, it is not going to work particularly
well for students.
Q230 Nicola Blackwood:
That is what the competitor countries do. There is another question.
There still will be the Tiers 1 and 2 route for people to apply
for jobs but they have to have a job offer, whereas if you want
to just stay on the post-study work route, the implication is
that you can do anything. Some evidence that has been provided
implies that we are talking about working on the tills at Tesco
type work when you have a PhD graduate or a Masters graduate who
you would not expect to be working in that kind of role. Now,
that kind of work experience surely is not beneficial to the student
returning to their country?
Aaron Porter: I
would agree. That kind of experience is something that does not
seem that the UK being a destination for that work is being particularly
distinctive. But it is worth saying that the current economic
conditions are meaning that is probably a little more prevalent
now than it would have been a few years ago. I hope and I am sure
that in years to come the volume of that problem should subside.
Dominic Scott:
Of course, to control that, one of the options that has been discussed
is linking post-study work to Tier 2. Now, that again would be
a reasonable compromise. The downside of that is there are huge
numbers of SMEs around the country who would not register themselves
as employers under Tier 2 and go through the process of getting
a CoS, and I have had substantial evidence given to me recently
by the Association of Business Schools saying Tier 2 is completely
inappropriate for the brightest and the best and it would not
work. So I think there is a real difficulty on that.
Q231 Nicola Blackwood:
All right. Could I ask about another issue, which is this on campus
working requirement? I have received comments that this would
not work for several reasons. One is what exactly is a campus,
and in the context of Oxford University that is quite confusing.
The second issue is, with a lot of research students, they would
frequently do remote consultancy work. If you are talking about
a STEM student who is backing up a biotech SME or something, that
is clearly a positive relationship. Have you had any response
from your students on these issues?
Aaron Porter: I
have had similar kind of question marks around the practicability
of imposing such a requirement. I think that the only way I can
imagine it being overcome is to more broadly relate it to some
benefit to academic study or an education environment. But again,
those are similarly fluffy but I suspect a little better than
simply saying "on campus", which for obvious reasons
for an institution like the OU, even in a city like your own or
Cambridge, it is difficult to pin down what the campus is and
where the boundaries are.
Q232 Mark Reckless:
Mr Porter, you said the post-study work route gave UK higher education
an important competitive advantage against other countries. We
would not usually support an industry by giving it a subsidy against
its foreign competitors. Why do you think it is any more acceptable
for us to prop up higher education by saying, "Oh, well,
we will let your graduates stay on and work afterwards and compete
with our own graduates"?
Aaron Porter: I
would not consider it a subsidy insofar as we are propping up
HE in that the benefits that come with this competitive advantage
far outweigh any subsidy that might be linked to a two-year post-study
work. The financial benefits that international students bring
I will not go over, but also in terms of ensuring that the UK
is regarded and is able to maintain the level of recruitment.
One of the metrics that is associated with UKHE in terms of allowing
it to describe itself as the second best system of UKHE in the
world—unless you are in Oxford or Cambridge which would,
I am sure, describe themselves as the best system of HE in the
world—is the fact that they cite the number of international
students coming in. I consider that to be important in terms of
allowing us to protect that as a claim for the UK.
Q233 Steve McCabe:
Isn't it one of the few legal subsidies that we could give to
industries that we are rather keen to promote, like pharmaceuticals
or chemical engineering or green energy, areas where we are hoping
to as Government policy try and get a competitive lead? What we
seem to be doing is closing down the opportunity to attract some
of the brightest and best talents who might actually advance our
industry.
Aaron Porter: I
agree. It is worth saying that the skills mix of those that come
from outside of the EU happen to fit quite neatly with where our
own home skills shortages are, particularly in the industries
that you have cited. I suspect that if we are serious about stimulating
economic growth and stimulating certain industries we would not
want to be simultaneously taking away some of the very skills
that we need to ensure that those industries remain internationally
competitive and hopefully grow over the next few years.
Q234 Bridget Phillipson:
On the issue of your graduates working in Tesco on the tills,
presumably a lot of these people, the international students who
come to the UK, are—because of the fees involved—often
amongst the most affluent in their own countries. Presumably they
would just seek to return home if all they could find to do work-wise
was work on the tills. Is that—
Aaron Porter: That
is why. I mean, there are very, very few examples of those that
have graduated and as an example of post-study work are working
on the tills in Tesco. That's not to say that those that are currently
studying are indeed doing that work, and I think it is important
to distinguish that difference.
Dominic Scott: Can
I just add on that very briefly that there is a market mechanism
here with post-study work, and there is quite extensive reports
of students who apply for Post-study work, but don't stay that
long, because if they don't get a good job in the UK, they prefer
to go back to Bangalore and Hyderabad, where the opportunities
are. So the market is working there. If there are lots of jobs
available, they will contribute to jobs and expertise in the UK
economy. If they are not there, they will go home, they move.
Q235 Chair: In other
words, they are not prepared to work at Tesco, they are probably
rich enough to buy it?
Dominic Scott:
Exactly. That is our concern, that it is at that high level of
post-graduates that we are concerned that these measures, especially
about bringing dependants and dependants working, it is going
to hit that high level of post-graduate recruitment.
Q236 Dr Huppert: That
is exactly what I was hoping to ask about first, Chair, about
dependants, because there are two changes that we have not particularly
touched on. One is that students coming for less than 12 months
will not be allowed to bring any dependants and the other is that
their dependants would not be allowed to work at all. Do you have
any comments on those two, what effect they would have in Britain,
and also on attractiveness for students?
Aaron Porter: Well,
I suspect the initial implications are relatively obvious, but
I will spell them out. It will make the UK seem a much less welcoming
place for those students. I also think it doesn't properly consider
the nature and the background of lots of those students, particularly
on research degrees, who tend to be—for obvious reasons—much
older and often with a family. Now, I accept some of the safeguards
that need to be placed around it, but I think this has gone far
too far and will ultimately preclude many students we wouldn't
just want for financial reasons, we would want for academic reasons
in our institutions, not just for their own research, but also
to an extent to add to the academic community in our institutions,
and to a small extent, teaching for under-graduate students, particularly
in STEM subjects.
Dominic Scott:
Just to add that two in five people doing a PhD in this country
are non-EU people. They come for three to four years at least,
sometimes at a minimum. The likelihood of them coming without
their families is slight. I think we would do huge damage to the
research infrastructure.
Q237 Dr Huppert: As somebody
who used to recruit them, I agree. But can I then just briefly
ask to try to capture overall with these changes—because
there is an economic dimension, there is an academic dimension,
there is also a foreign policy dimension—what effect do
you think these changes would have on Britain's standing internationally?
Aaron Porter: It
has often been described by previous witnesses that it would move
the UK to a description of, "We are not open for business"
and that that equally translates to how we might be perceived
from a foreign policy point of view. I love the fact that I was
able to go to a city like Leicester, which was so diverse, and
I think that that was great for the country, that was great for
me personally, and I think that was great for the community in
which I was able to live—
Mr Winnick: And the MP.
Aaron Porter: —and
obviously for a great MP. So I lived in Leicester South. But yes,
so for those reasons, I think that could have a dangerous impact.
Q238 Mark Reckless: But
also in terms of the fact that currently a number of leading people
in other countries have studied in Britain, and historically that
has been another export, do you think the loss of that would have
an effect on us?
Dominic Scott:
Can I pick up on it, just to say that what is fascinating is that
our foreign policy priority countries are precisely the countries
where we recruit most students. If you look at China, look at
India and look at USA, they are at the top.
Chair: Are they the top
three?
Dominic Scott:
They will be the top three, so they align entirely with our foreign
policy objectives and our key strategic partners, so anything
that damaged that clearly has implications far more widely.
Can I make two other brief points on that?
Chair: Could you make
it as brief as possible? We are over-running.
Dominic Scott:
I will make it very brief. Institutions are battling with the
recent changes. I have figures here that Oxford University had
100 visa refusals this year. Now, these are not dodgy students,
so those people had to reapply and go through. We have a system
where it is pretty tight on systems.
A final remark, that I received a report from British
Council India this week to say that the effect of merely these
discussions has reduced attendance at their education exhibitions
by a third in Hyderabad and two-thirds in Bangalore. Already this
generic message about the UK beginning to turn its back on international
students is getting across and doing damage.
Chair: We will be hearing
from the Foreign Office Minister next week on this issue.
Q239 Bridget Phillipson:
Just to echo that comment, in discussions I have had with my local
university, Sunderland, who recruit a lot of students from China,
they have already expressed concern that numbers are starting
to drop, that students there are concerned, particularly post-graduate
students, so just to echo the comment there.
Q240 Mr Clappison: Just
a very brief question on a completely unrelated subject. It is
very brief—[Interruption.] Well, it is tuition fees,
in a way. It is to Mr Porter—and thank you for your evidence
today—but I have recently read reports that you were heckled
and attacked at a tuition fees protest, which you quite legitimately
had been leading. What was all that about?
Aaron Porter: Yes,
you are right. It was unrelated. There have been some criticisms
that I have not been radical enough—I suspect that is not
an opinion shared in this room. There have been some suggestions
that I have been too radical—I'm sure that is an opinion
that is probably not shared in this room. There were a group of
protesters that felt that they wanted to show their anger at me
at having not run enough of a robust campaign against the Government.
Mr Clappison: It was an
internal political thing then?
Aaron Porter: Yes,
that is right.
Mr Clappison: That is
fine.
Q241 Mr Winnick: Can
I just ask, Mr Porter, there were reports in the press that you
were subject—and perhaps there was no foundation, but it
is serious matter if it was—to racist taunts, that you were
subject to anti-Semitic insults. Is that true?
Aaron Porter: Some
of the comments toward me were of an anti-Semitic nature. There
were suggestions that I was a Tory and a Jew, and I can confirm
that I am neither of those things.
Mr Winnick: Well, one
is inexcusable and the other is not.
Chair: Anyway, Mr Porter
and Mr Scott, thank you very much for giving evidence today. We
will be producing our report very shortly. Anything else you want
to add, please write to us. Thank you very much.
Could I call to the dais Sir Andrew Green and Mr
Alper Mehmet.
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