Examination of Witnesses (Questions 75-112)
Q75 Chair:
Good morning and welcome, all of you, to this meeting of the Transport
Select Committee. We normally have our meetings in London but
we decided it was the right thing for us to come here to Hull
today. We know what an important city Hull is, with very particular
concerns about transport, and we thought it was very important
that we came here to see and hear for ourselves what your issues
are, so I hope that, during our questions, you'll feel able to
tell us the things that you think are most important, to help
us with our national inquiry into transport and the economy.
I'd like to ask everybody, please, to make sure their
mobile phones are switched off, because I've been told that they
interfere with our recording system if they're on, so I'd be very
grateful if everyone could switch their phones off. I'd like to
ask our witnesses here, please, to identify themselves. Could
you just give your name and the organisation you're representing?
It's for our records, so that our recorders are clear who's speaking
and we get that down properly.
David Woods: I
am Councillor David Woods and I'm the portfolio holder for environmental
sustainability with Hull City Council.
Mark Jones: Mark
Jones, officer with Hull City Council.
Jodie Booth: Jodie
Booth, North Lincolnshire Council, Transport Planning Manager.
Simon Driver: Simon
Driver, Chief Executive of North Lincolnshire Council.
Q76 Chair:
Thank you very much. How important are transport improvements
to economic regeneration in your areas? Who'd like to give me
a thought on that one? Anyone? If you just indicate if you want
to speak. Mr Jones?
Mark Jones: I think,
in terms of the Humber estuary as being the largest trading estuary
in the UK, the UK being a maritime trading nation, appropriate
transport infrastructure to match what is a private-sector-led
investment in the port infrastructure is an absolute imperative
and, over the past 20 years here in the Humber, we have seen a
very significant amount of investment from port owners, port operators
and maritime operators, which hasn't been matched by a commensurate
amount of investment in the public transport infrastructure. Yorkshire
and Humber tends to be at the lower end of UK investment, and
the Humber in particular, which is hugely dependent on an appropriate
infrastructure in terms of transport to match its maritime trade
opportunities, tends to have been left behind over recent years.
Q77 Chair:
Thank you. Turning to North Lincolnshire, have you got similar
views, Ms Booth?
Jodie Booth: Yes.
I would like to say that definitely putting some money into infrastructure
is absolutely important for stimulating the economy and, particularly
in this economic climate, it's absolutely important, both in rail
and road freight, to put some investment in to stimulate economic
growth. Particularly as well, as Mark has alluded to, the ports
are a particularly important industry around here, and something
that can stimulate private-sector investment and encourage that
growth, and as Eddington has pointed out through his study, there
is a need to focus on international gateways, ports and airports.
We do have that facility within our area in the Hull and Humber
ports, and there's certainly a massive opportunity here at the
moment to put that infrastructure into this area to facilitate
that private-sector investment that the country drastically needs
at the moment to rebalance the economy.
Simon Driver: Building
on that as well, I think in particular it's looking at job opportunities
in the sub-region and opening up movement across the sub-region.
It's looking at where the investment is on both banks through
the ports industry but also through the oil refining industry,
the chemical industry and, potentially, renewable energy, as well
as in the more traditional areas. That relies on not only transport
infrastructure, both road and rail, but support for public transport
to allow people in those areas of unemployment to access the jobs.
The jobs that are being created will be created by significant
private-sector investment, particularly on the south bank. We
need to open up those job opportunities to where the large pockets
of unemployment are in the sub-region.
Q78 Kwasi
Kwarteng: I was just wondering: you were saying
that, obviously, you needed more money to be spent on that infrastructure,
but within that framework, would you prioritise certain modes
of transportation. So, you have a pot of money, but obviously
it's restricted, so where would you channel that money ideally?
Would you have road infrastructure or rail infrastructure? What
do you think is the top priority?
Jodie Booth: I
think it's important to look at where you can actually stimulate
the most economic growth and look at the actual figures in terms
of where you can bring in the most private-sector investment,
what will start to stimulate economic growth in terms of bringing
the jobs into the area, and make the decisions on the back of
that. Obviously, as well, there's the issue around sustainability,
and looking at not only the environmental issues but where you
can provide sustainable economic growth and, in those areas, we
should be looking at putting in investment. Whether that is road
or rail, or a combination of both, we should be looking at both
of those issues.
Obviously, we do have the largest port complex in
the country in terms of tonnage within our area. We also take
20% of the UK's rail freight out of the ports, so there are some
real key issues for us on both road and rail. Particularly in
this economic climate, when there isn't a lot of money to go around—we
understand that—we have to look at those issues and look
at where we can stimulate the most economic growth for the north
but also for the whole of the UK.
Q79 Kwasi
Kwarteng: Could I just ask a follow-on to that?
Specifically, in terms of this local region, do you have any overriding
priorities? If you had to choose between rail and road, for instance,
what choice would you make?
Jodie Booth: We,
obviously, have a major asset in our area in terms of the ports,
and we would like to see investment concentrated around the port
areas, not only bringing road and rail freight in and out of the
ports but, as my colleague has alluded to, looking at getting
the employment from both sides of the Humber into those jobs as
well, so that we can keep it within the UK and within our areas.
David Woods: I
think we've already identified that some of the road network hasn't
had any investment for many years now to a point where it is not
capable of taking the kind of added traffic—just the road
traffic—that the ports will generate in the future. Obviously,
on sustainability, we would like to see an increase in freight
on the railway lines, but Hull in particular has a single line
that runs through the middle of the city, and infrastructure building
for that would not have as much impact as sorting out some of
the road issues that we have, and I'm sure you'll see those. I'm
sure that it's the same for the south bank as well.
I have to say one of the major road issues, of course,
for the Humber and the Humber ports, is the question of the bridge
and how that's going to fit in in the future with the financing
for the bridge and improvements to the road. So, initially, I
think we need to see some movement on the road infrastructure.
Certainly, in the future, high-speed rail links to Leeds and to
West Yorkshire and improved railway links between both sides of
the Humber and that hub around Leeds would be something that we'd
want to see almost running in parallel with the road improvements.
Q80 Kwasi
Kwarteng: Let me just clarify this for my own purposes:
you're saying that the road infrastructure is the most immediate
priority you have.
Mark Jones: Yes,
I think so. There are certain sections of roads, and I'm sure
that you will have seen those, certainly in the centre of Hull,
on Castle street, which cuts the city in half, and most of the
investment would be going in the east of the city, which means
we have this logjam in the centre; similarly, with the south bank,
there is the issue of access to the ports at Immingham. So, there
are these specific areas in the road network that, I think, would
have the priority.
Q81 Chair:
You mentioned rail as well. Which aspects of rail are most important
at the moment?
David Woods: Well,
I'm sure they'll speak for the south bank. Certainly, the single
rail that we have through the city is not up to capacity yet but
it certainly will be in the future, and I think we need to see
how that can be sorted out.
Q82 Chair:
You mentioned rail service to Leeds. Is that a high priority?
David Woods: Yes,
I think so, just for commuting, but also for freight as well.
Mark Jones: I think
one of the things that I'd like to bring into this is looking
at transport in terms of its total context. Eddington tended to
look at it as a means of transit, and there are trade-offs between
time, cost and quality. I think, when you link transport to ports,
we should think about ports in terms of economic value-added and
as a total system. It's not just about a dock and a road at the
end of the dock. I think Simon alluded to this in terms of the
value-added. Our ports in terms of the wider economy aren't just
competing with the UK ports; they're also competing with continental
ports for inward investment and value-added adjacent to the ports.
I think it's quite important that the Committee looks at the economic
potential that we can derive from that. In terms of rebalancing
the economy, road transport and port-centric logistics certainly
offer us the better opportunity for creating more value-added
jobs on both banks of the Humber.
Q83 Chair:
How important is the development of the port to the whole area?
Mark Jones: It's
hugely important in terms of, if you look at the gross value-added,
if you discounted the ports and port-related businesses such as
chemicals and steel, which rely on the ports, and there's an interdependency,
then our GVA would drop considerably, and so would our employment.
More importantly, though, looking to the future, the source of
our gross value added is going to come from our basic economic
base, which is the ports sector. It's the reason for the very
existence of this city; it's the reason for the existence of Scunthorpe
and Immingham. They are all port-related in some way.
Q84 Kelvin
Hopkins: In your opening statement, Mr Jones, you
implied some disappointment that public-sector investment hadn't
matched private-sector investment. Where was the fault? Was it
the local authority's fault? Was it the regional development agency?
Was it national? And which particular areas of public investment
were you concerned about?
Mark Jones: I wouldn't
want to apportion blame, because I think we all have a responsibility
for recognising where our greatest economic effort should be.
Certainly, if you look how the port systems on the Humber developed,
they were developed by the railways. They were developed in parallel,
north and south bank, and then the motorways arrived, and the
Humber bridge, but they never quite got to the port gates. Had
this been Holland, they would have got to the ports and been renewed
three times by now. I know we're not in the predict-and-provide
mode any longer, but certainly recognising that amount of investment
that has gone in through the Humber. If my figures are right,
in the late '80s the Humber was handling about 30 million tonnes
of goods a year; I think it's approaching about 80 million tonnes
or 85 million tonnes now, and that is, essentially, coming through
the same transport infrastructure as in the late '80s.
Q85 Kelvin
Hopkins: I have a specific question about railways.
One of the problems with Britain's railways is that the gauge
is too small to take containers in most areas. Are you restricted
with long-distance rail freight simply because the gauge isn't
big enough?
Simon Driver: Yes,
certainly that's one of the major challenges we have on the south
bank from the port of Immingham, just to increase that capacity,
and it's gauge enhancements that are needed in a relatively small-scale
part of the railway to actually access the national rail network.
As Mr Jones has said, there has been very limited investment in
the last 30 years, and yet the port of Immingham now handles nearly
70 million tonnes through the year. A large amount of that does
go through the rail network for relatively short distances to
feed the power stations and the steelworks in the region and beyond,
but the potential for the development has got to be through the
containerisation developments, and the investment will be forthcoming,
but it does need the enhancements in the rail gauge in particular.
Jodie Booth: Just
to refer back to two points you've made. First of all, you asked
how important the ports are to the region? And then the issues
about the road and rail—
Q86 Chair:
We want to talk about the port at the moment and the gauge, and
access to the port.
Jodie Booth: Yes.
Well, in line with that as well, and referring back to the public-sector
investment that we've had, I think it's important to say that
the Humber ports are the UK's biggest in terms of tonnage, and
home to the UK's biggest refinery cluster as well. We do have
the largest remaining development site in the north of England
and we have the prospect of bringing in up to 20,000 private-sector
jobs. We do have the best opportunity in the north of England
to rebalance the economy. However, we do have issues, both on
road and rail, and particularly in relation to freight.
Now, with relation to the rail and the limitations
that we have, we don't have gauge enhancements, which would allow
the larger containers to get out of the ports, and also, from
the environmental side of things, allow more out for less. So,
by 2014, in the way current investment is going, we will be the
last remaining large, major port in the UK not to have these gauge
enhancements in the Hull and Humber region.
As announced last week, the A160 and A63 road schemes
will not be taken forward, at the earliest, until 2015. This could
well stimulate private-sector investment, with up to 20,000 private-sector
jobs on the back of it, should we get that investment in the area.
Q87 Chair:
Is this direct access to the ports?
Jodie Booth: Direct
access to the ports of Immingham and to the port of Hull.
Q88 Chair:
Have you been promised anything on the rail gauge before?
Jodie Booth: On
rail gauge, we have had much research done by Network Rail and
Northern Way into looking at the gauge enhancements and what's
necessary. Now, we haven't had the funding promised to the region
as yet, but that's something we've been looking into. We know
that Southampton is currently getting the gauge enhancements,
and Teesport is to come online in the next couple of years, and
like I say, the Humber ports will be the last remaining port by
2014 not to have the gauge enhancements.
Q89 Iain
Stewart: I'd just like to get a sense of the north
bank and the south bank. You have two different council areas.
To what extent, when it comes to planning all these transport
projects and bidding for scare resources, are you rivals or partners?
Do both banks have to develop together, or can it be one against
the other?
Jodie Booth: I
think we have been working as a city region—as a Hull and
Humber ports city region—but I think what's fair to say
is that we can't have a proper functional sub-region without action
on the tolls. Obviously, we have the Humber bridge between both
sides. We have had research looking into the tolls and we have
the currently DFT study, and now the newly announced Treasury
study as well. What we seem to have are a lot of studies going
into the actual issues, but we haven't had any firm action on
what will happen with the tolls. We have real uncertainty around
this particular area, which causes problems both for the public
and the private sector in terms of bringing confidence in the
area to work as the Hull and Humber Ports.
Mark Jones: Obviously,
in terms of the road improvements, we're talking about major capital
schemes, looking at 2015. Okay, we may be disappointed, but we
know where we are in terms of UK plc's finances. The Humber bridge
tolls issue is an immediate fiscal issue that is acting as a fiscal
drag in terms of optimising the estuary. I'd just like to say,
Chair, in terms of the rail issue on the north bank in terms of
gauge enhancement, it isn't as much of a problem and, indeed,
working with Network Rail and the RDA, Yorkshire Forward, and
the city council, under the Northern Way umbrella, we've secured
improvement investment to our rail line down to the port.
Q90 Iain
Stewart: I'm not diminishing the importance of
the bridge and the tolls, but in terms of general economic development
and the type of transport projects that will enhance that, do
the north and the south have to work together to secure that,
or could one develop independently of the other? Are your main
communications westwards?
Simon Driver: I
think that is it. There can be some development but I think the
important thing is that, in looking at, if you like, the development,
it's the Hull and Humber ports, because that's the thing that
actually unites the sub-region, but we need to make complementary
development and investment on both banks of the Humber. One of
the problems in the past has been the infrastructure has looked
east-west, and the movement, though, of labour in particular into
regeneration opportunities has to be north-south because, again,
coming back to an earlier point, the bridge was built to unite
the two banks of the Humber. It's failed to do that; it actually
divides them at a time when, quite rightly, we need private-sector
development—the opportunities are there.
The development has been announced already and planning
permission has been approved for 4,500 jobs on a logistics park
on the south bank, with the potential for a marine energy park.
There's some pre-consultation happening already, and 20,000 jobs
may come from that. Where the labour comes from, the mobility
of labour isn't there. Quite clearly, the work that the city region
has commissioned shows the two distinct travel-to-work areas—one
on the north bank and one on the south bank—because of the
impact of the bridge. Hull can't act as the true regional city
that it should be because of the barriers to movement, in particular
for labour, but also social movement, because of the impact of
the bridge. That needs to be done to allow the sub-region to develop
as a natural economic area, but also to build on the key issue
for the UK, which is the development of the port and also the
renewable energy.
Q91 Mr
Harris: Can I go back just a little bit to the
gauge enhancement for direct access to the port? Has a price tag
been put on that? If so, how does that compare with the cost of
some of the strategic road schemes that are on the go?
Jodie Booth: For
the south Humber bank improvements and gauge enhancements, it
will cost approximately £5.5 million to get out to the east
coast mainline in Doncaster from the port of Immingham. The A160
scheme that we have currently with Government is approximately
£114 million for the road improvements.
Q92 Mr
Harris: That's useful. The original question I
wanted to ask was in relation to your opening statement, when
you said about the need to rebalance the economy. How is it imbalanced?
Jodie Booth: It
is imbalanced between the north and the south. The rebalance of
the economy between the north and the south has been alluded to
in many Government documents.
Q93 Mr
Harris: What would be the best way of rebalancing
that in terms of transport infrastructure?
Jodie Booth: As
Eddington has pointed out, transport can play a key part in actually
stimulating the economy within the UK, and the key gateways that
he refers to in terms of stimulating that economy is key international
gateways, ports and airports. As one of the biggest—well,
the biggest in terms of tonnage—ports in the area, we feel
that if we can get the infrastructure in place, we can facilitate
private-sector investment, which the Government, at this time,
want to see us achieve.
Q94 Mr
Harris: If you forgive me, though, Eddington didn't
really say that transport infrastructure would stimulate the economy;
he said it could facilitate economic growth but it wouldn't actually
stimulate it on its own. So, what would be the drivers for stimulating
the economy? Transport would help, but there'd have to be other
factors there. What would they be?
Jodie Booth: Well,
we have key bottlenecks, obviously, around the country at the
moment, and one of those is at the port of Immingham and also
at the port of Hull. Now, we see our area as quite fundamental
in stimulating that economy, and transport infrastructure can
facilitate the private-sector investment coming into this area
and then stimulating the economy and putting jobs and private-sector
investment into this area, which is needed.
Q95 Mr
Harris: So, it's private-sector investment that
you're looking for?
Jodie Booth: We
have the potential of private-sector investment coming into the
Hull and Humber ports city region, particularly around port industry,
around renewables and offshore wind, and what we're saying is
that we need the transport infrastructure in place, and other
infrastructure as well, which we already have private-sector investment
added into that. By putting the transport infrastructure in place,
it will facilitate and stimulate that interest from the private
sector to create the jobs that are well needed within this area
and within the UK.
Q96 Chair:
Is it difficult to get private-sector investment in transport
schemes?
Mark Jones: Also
on the previous question, the Humber's locational advantage is
that we're the most northerly 12-hour crossing of the North sea,
which allows full and efficient optimisation of equipment in terms
of vessel utilisation and keeping the costs down in the logistics
chain. As soon as those just-in-time cargos or time-sensitive
cargos come off, which could be high-value, either way, and they
hit a bottleneck very close to the port gates, which they don't
experience in continental Europe, and the tacho is running, that
then starts to deter private-sector investment. It also deters
port-centric logistics, where logistics value-added operations
are located close to our ports. That could be for mass customisation
for UK markets or vice versa, because if coming out of there they
suddenly hit a tacho block, then time is money in terms of deliveries.
Q97 Chair:
But can you get private-sector investment in transport infrastructure?
Mark Jones: We
can in terms of the complementary transport infrastructure around
the ports, but there is an assumption that it should be matched
by the public sector.
Q98 Paul
Maynard: You're going to have a significant number
of transport projects you're very keen to progress across all
modes. I'm wondering: how do you prioritise between all those
different projects? At what organisational level does that discussion
take place or should that discussion take place? How do you balance
themes such as the international gateway—the ports you mention—and
the smaller projects that may benefit, say, commuters within Hull?
How do you ensure that the international gateway doesn't overshadow
other, more minor projects that might deliver greater benefit
for the people of Hull?
Mark Jones: We're
very conscious that it's about full effort from all partners,
whether it's private or public-sector, in terms of really trying
to squeeze as much out of existing infrastructure as we can. So,
our close working with the Highways Agency ensures that we've
approved or have an agreement of headroom, which allows investment
and planning permission to take place in Hull. I think as well,
in terms of close working between both banks at the city regional
level and into the regional level, we have agreed that kind of
balance about what is for local benefit and which is for the benefit
of UK plc. So, I think there are a lot of parties, actually, concentrated
on making as much difference as we can do. The issue in terms
of prioritisation is always going to be the most difficult one,
though, particularly on the major schemes, because the demands
of the north and south bank are very, very similar.
Q99 Paul
Maynard: So, how do you make those decisions? What
future does the city region have, given the advent of the Local
Economic Partnerships, for example?
Mark Jones: We
do have a unitary leaders' structure, where the unitary leaders
actually agree priorities, together with the portfolio holders
for transport. But again, I would stress that the two transport
systems, the north bank and the south bank, are very similar,
and actually what we're talking about is the last mile—an
exaggeration, sorry—but the last mile to the port, in reality.
Q100 Chair:
You mentioned before the work you'd done with Yorkshire Forward,
and you mentioned the Northern Way. Can that kind of work continue
when there are only the Local Economic Partnerships?
Mark Jones: I think
the close working can continue in terms of commitment.
Q101 Chair:
But what about implementing? You can have close working and commitment
that go on for many years without a result, can't you? It's implementation.
Mark Jones: I think
the challenge, Chair, is going to be northern UK plc, because
the Northern Way did serve a purpose to bring people together
to think beyond their boundaries and think about transport as
a full system.
Q102 Chair:
Do you think it's important that the Northern Way continues?
Mark Jones: Or
something replaces the Northern Way. It could be a meeting of
LEPs, but there has to be that level of total system understanding.
Q103 Kwasi
Kwarteng: I'm very interested in the specific—I'm
referring back to Eddington, sorry—problem that the area
faces. From what you're saying, it seems that the last mile or
so of connectivity between the port and the rest of the transport
infrastructure is what we should be focusing on, because it's
very easy for us to get into a broad-brush discussion and say,
'We need more money and we need this, that and the other.' If
there was a specific problem that needed to be solved, would you
say that that was getting the last mile, as it were, of connectivity
to the actual port itself?
Mark Jones: From
my position, Chair, the last mile is a slight exaggeration; it's
a little bit more. The systems, when they were designed in the
'70s, were designed to enter the lock gates, and they've never
got there.
Simon Driver: Going
back to the your question about the future, this region has been
very clearly identified as in need of LEPs, city regions or whatever
you call them to provide a coalition of local businesses and local
government to work together at a level well above the local area.
In Yorkshire and the Humber, we're having tentative discussions
about maintaining an infrastructure; in particular, recognising
what transport contributes, not just to the last mile to the gate
but how it fits in strategically, right across the development.
Opening up opportunities for economic regeneration in one part
of the region links in with other flows right cross the region,
well beyond the local bit. I think it's the one area we've identified
that actually needs, in the localism agenda, to be actually taken
at a higher spatial level.
Q104 Kelvin
Hopkins: I've spoken to other freight operators
elsewhere in Europe and in Britain, and one of the problems with
Britain is, of course, we have a very substantial trade deficit:
we import much more than we export. Some operators say that they
lose money because they have to send back their lorries or trains
or whatever—containers—empty. They're full one way
and empty the other way. If they can fill them up both ways, it
becomes much more profitable and the costs go down. Is that a
significant factor in Hull? Do you import much more than you export
in terms of tonnage?
Mark Jones: Yes,
it is a significant factor in terms of empty equipment, but I
don't think it's anything that's unique to Hull. It's a UK plc
issue.
Simon Driver: Just
to add on that as well, I think one of the reasons why we're looking
for the development and the private-sector investment that is
being proposed now is to develop complementary industries at the
ports to allow that to happen, recognising that Immingham is a
bulk port. A lot of goods come in to supply the sailing industry
and the power energy. That's why you need to develop manufacturing
plants there to allow the outward trade to happen there as well.
Jodie Booth: If
I can just refer back to the point that was made earlier about
the last mile into the ports and around, there is obviously the
regional aspect as well. I would agree with Mark regarding the
south bank in that it isn't just the last mile of access into
the ports. Also, in terms of public sector investment in transport
infrastructure, I think that's quite right. What we're talking
about here is major schemes, which we look to Government to support.
We do have our internal infrastructure on the South Humber Gateway
as well that we look to provide support and improvements on as
well. So, it's a package rather than just a few individual, major
schemes. In terms of the regional—
Q105 Chair:
Could I just stop you there for a moment? Do you have any views
about the appraisal processes for deciding which major schemes
can go forward? Are they clear enough or are they satisfactory?
Does anybody have any comment on that?
Mark Jones: Thank
you, Chair. I'd like to say that, from our perspective, there
has been an improvement in the appraisal processes. From the Humber's
point of view, what it doesn't take account of is future potential
in terms of availability of land close to areas of emerging inward
investment. I think there needs to be some form of sophistication
to capture that future economic potential that we don't use, but
I would stress that there has been a big improvement in the appraisal
process.
David Woods: Yes,
it's really just to build on that. We've talked about the use
of the ports, and obviously the ports themselves being a driver
for the local economy around transport and transport links; I
think what we've seen over the past few years in Hull, and to
a degree on the south bank as well, is that inward investment
to manufacturing into Hull also requires those transport links
and that last mile that we've talked about. I think in 1995 the
IBM report said that Hull was a potential area for growth in renewable
technologies and again, we've seen comments from the Government
about the idea of port areas being potential sites for renewables
and for investment in factories and local development. Although
that specifically is not transport itself, it does need transport
infrastructure to get local development and investment into Hull,
which will have that knock-on effect locally. It is both directions.
Q106 Paul
Maynard: It's a very quick question aimed specifically
at North Lincolnshire, Mr Driver. Have you noticed any tangible,
demonstrable economic benefits from the direct rail service from
London to Hull in your particular region?
Simon Driver: London
to Hull direct service? I mean—
Chair:> We had
a very good journey here on First Hull Trains; has that made a
difference economically?
Paul Maynard:>
Specifically in North Lincolnshire.
Simon Driver: In
North Lincolnshire, I think it is perhaps hard to say, because
obviously the links are east-west to the east coast mainline and
Doncaster. So obviously, the links are parallel.
Q107 Paul
Maynard: So it has not had a tangible economic
benefit to your region?
Simon Driver: I
think it has to the region in terms of any sort of direct rail
movement in the sub-region, but obviously access to rail is looking
where people live.
Q108 Chair:
How important are buses in helping people to get to work and to
get to local amenities? Are you concerned about current proposals
to reduce the bus service operators grant, Mr Jones?
Mark Jones: In
places like Hull buses are absolutely critical, particularly in
terms of the low level of car ownership and the high level of
deprivation concentrated in the city. Buses are essential in terms
of getting people to travel to learn and to work, and there is
a concern that any future reductions could have a very negative
impact, not just in terms of Hull but also the services that extend
to the suburbs. Working together with the regional development
agency, we've invested a considerable amount of money into a transport
interchange to remove barriers to bus and train travel.
Q109 Mr
Harris: Mr Woods, you have mentioned high-speed
rail. This is a question to the entire panel: would it be fair
to conclude that, since none of you mentioned high-speed rail
in your written submission, you don't think it is a priority or
wouldn't have any particular benefit for the region?
David Woods: We've
talked about the local rail structure and its connectivity with
Leeds. The proposed high-speed link, as I understand it, is a
Y-shaped design that goes up to the Midlands and, of course, to
the Leeds area, which is—
Mr Harris:>
I'm glad your hand is round the right way there.
David Woods: Yes.
I think both the high-speed links down to the south of England
and potentially up to the east coast to the north-east are very
important. The links between the ports areas and the Leeds area
would become crucial. I think the two things go hand in hand.
In summary, there would have to be improvements made to local
transport links in conjunction with the high speed link.
Q110 Mr
Harris: But the announcement by the Government
to go ahead with High Speed 2 hasn't set the heather alight, I'm
guessing. It's not what everyone is talking about in terms of
economic development, is it?
David Woods: At
the moment I think high speed for us is many years away; we're
looking at sorting out the bottlenecks we have now because that
would give us the opportunity to add further transport links in
the future.
Q111 Mr
Harris: In the longer term though, do you think
that better links to London and the south, or indeed to the north-west,
via high speed, is something that you would embrace?
David Woods: Yes.
I suppose you have to look at the geography of where Hull and
the south bank are: we're 60 or 70 miles away from other cities.
Most of the country has more connectivity with large cities and
large urban areas than we have, so the ability to connect with
high-speed rail would be important economically.
Q112 Kwasi
Kwarteng: Just one last question: if there were
one thing in the past 30 years that we should have done in terms
of transport policy that would have had a direct benefit specifically
to the port, what would that have been?
Simon Driver: If
I can loosely use your concept of ports, and going back to what
the Hull and Humber port city region is all about, clearly the
one thing would be free access of labour and social movements,
which would mean no tolls on the bridge. One thing we would have
had would have been proper development, and we would have had
people being able to move and have full mobility regarding where
the jobs were.
Chair:> Would
that have made the bridge more beneficial?
Simon Driver: That
would have made the bridge fulfil its purpose, which was to unite
the sub-region not divide it.
Jodie Booth: I would reiterate
those comments in terms of the question that has been asked.
Mark Jones: I think
30 years ago, before the green lobby, to have completed the planned
motorway around the north of Hull and leading right to the port
gates.
Chair:> Councillor
Woods, have you one last point?
David Woods: I
do agree with comments about the bridge. In some respects the
bridge has been a link and a barrier to not just jobs and travel
to work but education and growth of the area. So I would probably
say the bridge, but I will say Castle street as well because that
is also important
Chair:> Thank
you very much. You've been very informative and very helpful,
thank you.
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