Examination of Witnesses (Questions 144-165)
Q144 Chair:
Good afternoon gentlemen. Could I ask you please to give your
name and the organisation that you represent for our records and
to help identify you on our recording?
James Adeshiyan:
James Adeshiyan from First Hull Trains.
Professor Mackie:
Peter Mackie from the Institute for Transport Studies, University
of Leeds.
Adam Fowler: Adam
Fowler, from the City of Hull and Humber Environment Forum.
Peter Shipp: Peter
Shipp, Chairman and Chief Executive of EYMS Group, which is a
private, independent bus company. I think it is the largest of
its type in the country.
Q145 Chair:
Thank you very much. What types of transport investment should
we prioritise or would you like to see prioritised here? Who would
like to start?
Professor Mackie:
I would like to see urban transport investment prioritised. I
believe we have a significant deficit in urban transport infrastructure;
that inevitably means public transport, things aiming at reliability
and service quality improvements in our big cities. I believe
that the cities are the engines of the future economy, and poor
quality supporting infrastructure—in the transport sector
among others—is a constraint on economic performance. In
the north of England we have these big conurbations 40 miles apart.
The connectivity between those conurbations and the opportunity
to create what Professor Robson from Manchester University used
to call the Hanseatic League of the North is a very important
opportunity for the UK.
Chair:> So urban
transport and connectivity.
Q146 Kwasi
Kwarteng: On that specific point you gave a very
full answer, but it was a very general answer. "Connectivity"
is a very general word; I am very interested in what modes you
would be promoting. Regarding this Hanseatic League, will there
be a rail link? Will there be a road link or bus services? What
sort of specifics could you give us on that?
Professor Mackie:
Obviously that is where assessment comes into the picture. If
you ask me my knowledge of the relative merits of electrification
and higher speeds on a trans-Pennine line versus improved capacity
on the M62 and the M60, then I'd say you're not asking the right
person. I say evidence base is crucial, and you need a lot of
information from a lot of sources in order to be able to be in
a position to make those choices.
Q147 Kwasi
Kwarteng: With respect, you can understand that,
from the point of view of a Minister or of Government, saying,
"We need better connectivity," isn't particularly helpful.
We all agree that we need better connectivity, but I think for
the purposes of the Committee, we have to try and really get some
sort of specificity and focus on what the nature of those connections
will be.
Q148 Chair:
Would anyone like to join in and be more specific on what's required
or perhaps have a different view? In terms of priorities, we all
want everything. We're trying to identify what you see as your
priorities.
Peter Shipp: I'm
pleased to note that you and one or two of your colleagues have
mentioned bus services. They tend to be the forgotten things sometimes.
I accept that bus services aren't an end to everything and I agree
with a lot of what my colleagues earlier this morning have said
about the Humber bridge tolls and about Castle street, because
Castle street is important to us as well. We don't particularly
use it, but of course what happens when Castle street gets blocked
is that traffic overflows into the city centre and then causes
all sorts of problems. You did mention specifically BSOG and concessionary
fares. My take on all this would be that every aspect, in a sense,
needs some investment, but I do question the need for some of
the very expensive capital schemes, in whatever mode. Some of
them are very justifiable but I question some others.
My view would be, certainly, that one of the priorities
ought to be to maintain what we have and improve it. I think that's
a point Professor Mackie made in his paper, which I've only had
a brief chance to look at this morning. It seems to me that we're
in danger of losing some of what we have, and surely our first
priority should be to maintain what we have and improve it, so
long as it's good, rather than necessarily go for great schemes
that cost an awful lot of money. I can bring you one particular
specific action plan that I think you wanted, Mr Harris, and that
was to maintain the level of concessionary fares reimbursement
and BSOG, because for about £5 million a year we can
maintain the level of bus services in this area. The issues are
the same in the rest of the country, but they seem to be somewhat
exaggerated in this area because East Riding is largely a rural
authority, which, as a lot of people seem to forget, is one of
the largest rural areas in the country and is very difficult to
serve.
What concerns me is that buses as a whole throughout
the UK carry about 64 million passengers a year, according to
my latest figures from 2008; that's three times the entire rail
and underground network. Even if you exclude leisure from that
figure, it's still about 51 million passengers a year, which
is still over twice the number on the entire rail and underground
network. In Hull, for example, we know from figures that the council
has produced that nearly half of people who come in to Hull to
shop, come in by bus. What concerns me is that proposed BSOG cuts,
even at 20% and not until 2012—but 2012 is only 18 months
away—will lose my company £600,000 a year. At the moment
the proposal for concessionary fares risks losing us £2.25
million a year, and that's going to mean, inevitably, however
hard we try, major cuts in bus services and a large increase in
bus fares. My concern is that's going to stifle investment and
stifle existing employment. As Ian Kelly mentioned, the bosses
don't tend to use buses, but the employees certainly do.
Q149 Chair:
Do smaller local schemes or wider strategic schemes matter most?
How are you going to get connectivity, if you don't have the wider
strategic schemes?
Adam Fowler: I
think that's an important point. Just to come back to the context
of rail investment, mention has been made of connectivity with
London. Often, Hull and the Humber area looks westwards in the
wider regional context, and certainly one of our problems has
been—and I think our friends in West Yorkshire and South
Yorkshire have faced this as well—congestion issues in the
Leeds-Manchester corridor. I certainly think that the Humber sub-region
is somewhat divorced from its natural centre, which should be
looking west. London is important and Hull Trains has done a fantastic
job, and not just in terms of connectivity. I think the issue
here is what transport can do for the perception of an area like
Hull. It hasn't just created more direct trains, for example,
between Hull and London, it has spread the word of what Hull and
the sub-region has to offer. It's important to see transport in
a wider social and economic role as well. Coming back to your
specific question earlier about investment in the rail infrastructure,
let's look west. There are certainly signalling issues and infrastructure
issues. It is logical to look at how Hull and the East Riding
area and indeed, to some extent, the south bank in the south Humber
region are connected to the west.
Q150 Chair:
Any specific schemes in the pipeline or perhaps being rejected
or deferred that you think should be instigated?
Adam Fowler: There
is one that continually gets pushed back, and that is signalling
issues. Hull is a major port city, of course—as you've heard
from ABP—and yet the last train into Hull on an evening
from the West is 11 o'clock at night, because of Victorian signal
boxes. Now certainly my colleagues at Hull and East Riding councils
and Yorkshire Forward have been pushing for a long time to get
major investments to automate the crossings between Hull and the
connection with the mainline west. So from a business and even
a prestige point of view, it's absurd that you can't leave London
later than half past eight at night with First Hull Trains or
even later than 10 o'clock at night from Leeds or Manchester.
That's been going on now for 20 or so years.
Q151 Chair:
So you see looking at those things as very important and—
Adam Fowler: Yes,
and it would be relatively small-scale investment as well with
signalling and crossing improvements.
Q152 Paul
Maynard: We do seem to be retreating somewhat from
our consensus about tolls on the bridges being the big issue.
We've heard several different answers now. With particular regard
to perhaps Mr Adeshiyan, I'm interested in what involvement you
all have in terms of trying to set an agreed transport agenda
for the sub-region. Where do you all come together to discuss
these issues and thrash out what you think is important? Where
you have a pot of money, how do you apportion it? Is there any
body that exists where these issues are discussed and conclusions
are reached that can then be presented upwards to Government?
Q153 Chair:
Is there any way in the new proposed arrangements that you think
you will be able to come together to identify priorities? Mr Adeshiyan,
do you want to comment on that?
James Adeshiyan:
From a First Hull Trains perspective, I think what the individuals
on the Panel have actually said is that sometimes there are no
straightforward answers in terms of some of the actual challenges
that Hull and the Humber face. From a First Hull Trains perspective,
we've always seen that the through service to London would unlock
some of the economic potential of this particular region. In as
far as the wider strategic issues within Hull and the Humber and
coming together to discuss what the actual real key drivers are
for wider transport solutions, I have to say, from my perspective,
that it has been pretty focused on rail and rail alone, in a sense.
Some of the bigger challenges around the more urban issues, as
opposed to the direct link from London to Hull, also need to be
looked at, as Adam said. That's something that I would concur
with. I think where I do agree with him is that some of the more
localised schemes, such as the branch line that you came up on
today, for example, between Selby and Hull, are the areas which
do need ongoing investment. Bearing in mind, back in 1999 we only
had one direct service from London to Hull and around 3% growth
at that particular time. By 2005, after the introduction of our
service in 2000, that had risen to something like a 61% growth
level in traffic to London. Obviously, there was a need for that
particular direct link. I would say that investment on that particular
line hasn't especially followed, but then again, why would it
with some of the bigger challenges in the wider community?
From my perspective, anything that can be done
by Network Rail to improve some of the signalling challenges that
we have would be beneficial. On that particular line we have seven
signal boxes, for example. As Adam has said, those signal boxes
will close at a particular time because those individuals are
on 12-hour shifts, so it does restrict the ongoing growth of direct
services to London for First Hull Trains. For us, that would need
to be an area of any scheme that we were to look at. It would
be around the infrastructure on that branch line going on to the
east coast mainline, which is a more strategic issue and one that
is currently being looked at.
Q154 Chair:
Professor Mackie, could you give us an idea of how it's going
to be possible for people to come together to decide what their
priorities are under the new regime, whether it's local government,
business or others with an interest in an area wider than their
locality?
Professor Mackie:
No, I have absolutely no idea of how this is going to work, and
I am extremely worried that there is going to be an institutional
deficit. We are seeing several things happening simultaneously:
a reduction in the capacity of the Department for Transport at
central level; a reduction in the significance of the RDA tier;
a change in the planning system; an abolition of the Regional
Spatial Strategies; and the creation of the LEPs. I could go on,
but let me say just one thing. I think transport is a particularly
difficult area in planning terms, because you have the local interest,
or the regional interest, interfaced with the national interest.
You need both parties to come together and it is not at all clear
how that is going to play out in this new environment. If your
Committee can help to address the question of how it's going to
play out, and to put your views, I feel that will be one big win
from your inquiry.
Q155 Chair:
Mr Shipp, do you have any different views on how people will be
able to come together to be able to indentify priorities?
Peter Shipp: Not
really a different view, but I think at the moment it is a disappointment.
I'm not too knowledgeable about them, but from what I hear it
is a disappointment that we haven't managed to get together to
get a LEP sorted out for this area. It does seem disappointing,
because to me that would seem to be a major way forward. I hope
that can be solved soon. In the meantime—and I'm no spokesman
for it although we've been a member for a long time—the
Hull and Humber Chamber of Commerce is a major chamber in the
country. It spans the Humber and it embraces private business
and the public sector very well, I think. We are involved in it
very closely and in the absence of anything else, and, as Professor
Mackie says, the disappearance of some of the bodies that might
do that function at the moment, I think there is a function there
for the Chamber, which works very well and could work even better
if given more support and more involvement from business and the
public sector.
Adam Fowler: Chair,
I share the concerns that there is a danger here that we will
become almost parochial. The one thing we did have with organisations
such as the RDAs was a big regional strategic view. I think that
some of the evidence that has been presented just previous to
us, about how the future of the Humber is the Humber and about
some of the investment we can capture, is very important. If we
get too localised and don't see that Yorkshire and Humber view,
transport will suffer. Unfortunately, if we are not careful, we
are going to see that fragmentation. For some of the big issues,
it should not just be the Hull and East Riding or the North Lincolnshire
authorities on their own. We need to see the bigger picture from
a transport perspective.
The other point I would make is that transport has
to be sustainable and responsive. It's there for freight, but
it's also there for movement of people in one way or another.
To echo one of Peter's points earlier, one thing I'm concerned
about, depending on whether you are in an urban or a rural context,
but particularly in the rural context, is sustaining that network
with Bus Service Operators Grant, concessionary fare reimbursement,
and the pressure local authorities are coming under to support
fragile marginal service.
We are quite lucky in this area that we do have a
local operator willing to put more back into the region than in
other similar areas. We don't get into a situation like North
Yorkshire, where there are proposals for large-scale cuts. Only
last week I ran a surgery with members of the public, and already
I am hearing from people who are having difficulties getting into
work. So in an economic context, young people living in rural
areas and trying to find work in the urban context are finding
it increasingly difficult to maintain that fragile sustainable
network, which is generally to do with bus services.
Q156 Iain
Stewart: Thank you. Two questions from me. The
first is specifically to Mr Adeshiyan. First Hull Trains has clearly
been a success story in increasing services and increasing passenger
volumes. I'm just wondering what evidence you have to show whether
you have grown the market—have you increased the total number
of people travelling between those destinations, or have you been
successful in replacing journeys by people who maybe would have
driven all the way to London or driven to Doncaster to connect
to a train from there? My second question to the panel more generally:
I'm trying to get a steer on what barriers there are to developing
the LEPs in this area as a cohesive voice. Is there a historical
rivalry between the north and the south? I know the Humberside
area was much derided from the '70s onwards. Is it a cultural
and historical barrier or is there something else that we should
be looking at?
James Adeshiyan:
I'll answer the first question as best I can. I think from a First
Hull Trains perspective, what we have done is not only grown the
overall pot of rail travel from this particular part of the country,
we've also continually grown it over the last 10 years. I think
what comes out of that—
Q157 Chair:
Mr Adeshiyan, the question is not about the undoubted success
of First Hull Trains, which we all acknowledge; we're looking
at the cohesiveness, or otherwise, of the area, in terms of moving
forward with new priorities. That's simply what we want to explore
at the moment.
James Adeshiyan:
All I would say really is that the aim of First Hull Trains was
to increase travel to London. We've done that successfully and
I think it is important to note that it has been very good for
the local community to be connected to London, and as a result
of that the number of journeys taken to London has increased massively
over the last 10 years.
Q158 Iain
Stewart: Is that total journeys, looking at all
modes of transport?
James Adeshiyan:
Total journeys, basically. I think what we've been successful
in doing, which is important as well, is moving people from cars
into trains, especially on routes such as Selby and Brough, but
also from Hull directly.
Q159 Chair:
Professor Mackie, what can you tell us about the cohesiveness
of the area?
Professor Mackie:
I wanted just to comment on the second question, if I may. I'm
just an academic so I'm an outsider in how these circles really
work, but I do think the Northern Way has been an extremely useful
space. It has enabled interested parties from different parts
of the three regions to come together and begin to interface,
if you like, with technical discussions about schemes, and form
views about strategic questions like the high-speed line. To my
mind, as an outsider, it's been quite a revelation in terms of
the success of getting people with different local interests in
a room together to engage with the big questions. Going back to
one of the discussions from a previous session, I will be sorry
if that space is a casualty of what is going on at the moment.
Adam Fowler: If
I may answer the second part of your question, there are different
levels. First Hull Trains is one example of big strategic schemes,
but also the work with First Trans Pennine Express to create a
half-hourly service between Hull, Leeds and Manchester is another
priority we all see. The Chamber of Commerce and the local authorities
have worked together on it and I hope it will become an option,
and possibly there will be electrification of the rail line to
Hull once the infrastructure has been upgraded. I think there
is general partnership working on that, and Yorkshire Forward
and the Northern Ways helped with that. Having recently sat on
a scrutiny commission for one of the local authorities round here,
I agree that there is still some local parochialism and it stops
at the boundary. We can't have that; it has to be the bigger picture.
Potentially there is parochialism on the north bank with the two
local authorities, but also on the south bank as well. Often there
is very little synergy beyond the big schemes, whether it be freight
or passenger, and the link between the north and south bank. The
recurrent theme we hear today is that the Humber is one product
socially, culturally and economically. As Peter said, often it
is the small-scale interventions that make sure things connect;
if there is public sector investment, sustaining what we have
and that responsive network. Particularly from an economic perspective,
if the new jobs are to come to the rural areas, even some of the
outer urban areas, we have to provide a responsive, sustainable
transport network, not just think immediately of the private car
but train, dial-a-ride and community transport. The bus network,
particularly round here, is a major impact. I would stick my neck
out here and say that certainly at a local level we need more
joint working about what we are trying to achieve and to recognise
the importance of the best way to get people from A to B and therefore
what those needs are.
Q160 Mr
Harris: At the risk of provoking gales of laughter,
what do you think of the Local Enterprise Partnerships? Would
your own organisations get involved in them?
Peter Shipp: I
do not know enough about them to be specific, but from what I
hear we would certainly wish to get involved. I see them as a
major influence on transport infrastructure and projects, and
transport generally. That is my business and that is what I am
passionate about. I would certainly get involved, as I try to
do in more or less everything else that goes on. In answering
the question why we have not come up with a particular proposal
for one and there are conflicting ones, I agree with Adam that
to some extent perhaps there is local parochialism, but when we
were asked by consultants what we would suggest personally, it
actually embraced both. It might have been too big for what the
Government are proposing. I am not quite sure, but that would
be the south bank and would include the Scarborough area. The
trouble is, in my view, in the southern part of the north bank
there is a definite linkage with the south bank; clearly, ports
and everything else go together. However, towards the north of
the old Humberside region—I use that word carefully, as
you have said—there is a definite linkage with Scarborough
and that part of North Yorkshire. It might be too big, but, not
knowing the details of how the Government wish these things to
happen, I can see some merit in it being a rather larger one.
Certainly, we would very much wish to take part in whatever happens
there.
Q161 Chair:
Professor Mackie, do you want to add anything?
Professor Mackie:
Briefly, I think Peter Shipp has posed a key question. Even in
a relatively self-contained part of the world the question arises
as to what boundaries these things should have in order to deliver
effective transport planning and prioritisation throughout their
areas, and what powers and funding they should have in order to
help determine the relative priority of transport against all
other sectors of local authority expenditure. I would reiterate
that the 28% cut in the CLG revenue budget is potentially very
important for transport.
Mr Harris:>
Is it right to get the impression that at this stage, as far as
the Local Enterprise Partnerships are concerned, no one is quite
clear about how they will operate or how effective they will be?
Have you had any role at all in early discussions about them?
Q162 Chair:
I think you are saying "No". We can't record nods of
the head.
Professor Mackie:
No.
Peter Shipp: I
speak from my own point of view. We have a little knowledge. I
am aware of others, particularly the chamber, who have a lot more
knowledge than I do. I think there has been quite a lot of discussion,
and it is important now that we try to get acts together and put
a proper proposal to the Government, one that I hope could be
accepted. I know that the first tranche has been agreed. That
is very important because I see it as having a major influence
on the transport side, apart from anything else.
Q163 Kwasi
Kwarteng: Having asked specific questions in earlier
testimonies, I want to ask a very general question. I appreciate
that all of you have specific hats—academia, trains, the
environment forum and so forth—but you know the area. What
do people out there—the consumers who use your products—think
about transport in the area? What do you hear? What is your sense
of consumer or customer satisfaction in terms of transport in
this area?
Peter Shipp: Generally,
the impression is quite good. I am an advocate for bus services
but I readily acknowledge the importance to many businesses of
cars and trains. No doubt First Hull Trains has developed the
market; it has taken quite a bit off coach services to London.
Be that as it may, you are catering for a slightly different market.
I think the overall impression is very good. People complain about
the road network and the traffic particularly on Castle street;
they say the traffic is terrible. I know from experience elsewhere
that it is not quite as bad as some other places, but it is a
major issue for Hull. Castle street in particular and the Humber
bridge tolls constantly come up as a public issue as well.
Adam Fowler: It
is relative. Generally, if you are looking at road issues and
congestion in the Humber region, it is nothing like what I am
sure many Members here face in the South and South East. It is
relative, isn't it?
Q164 Kwasi
Kwarteng: What do people talk about?
Adam Fowler: I
do not think it is that. It is a mixed view. Certainly, First
Hull Trains and Trans Pennine have benefited; there are certain
gaps in other parts of the local rail structure with Northern
and the perception of rail travel there. For bus travel, in the
urban area, certainly in Hull, Grimsby and Scunthorpe to some
extent, we run surgeries as well. In all those areas we speak
to thousands of people every year. Generally, in the more urban
areas it is a pretty stable, responsive bus network. As you get
out, as I did this morning—I left a surgery in the rural
East Riding towards Spurn point—the perception of bus travel
is much less because, as Peter mentioned, they are very rural
areas.
Professor Mackie:
I have to answer for Leeds because I do not know about this area.
For Leeds, the issues are queuing on the motorway, unreliability,
poor resilience and the wires down at Retford on the east coast
main line. There is a set of issues of that kind. Reliability
and resilience of the network are crucial.
Q165 Chair:
Mr Adeshiyan, is there anything? Apart from First Hull Trains,
which we know about.
James Adeshiyan:
To be fair, I do not have much to add. The big issue that people
mention is the resilience of our infrastructure.
Chair:> Gentlemen,
thank you very much for coming to answer our questions.
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