Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question I asked earlier? If this House were to bounce an unpopular change of time zone on Scotland, what would the hon. Gentleman do, given that he has ensured that the Scottish Government do not have the powers in

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their locker to ensure that we do not have a time change that will be very inconvenient, especially in the winter months, bounced on us?

Mr Reid: I have tabled this amendment so that the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly will have to vote before any change goes through. The votes would have to take place before the start of the trial, and my amendment in the next group would mean that the same votes would have to take place after the trial and before the scheme could become permanent. The Government, as the Minister explained, have given the Scottish Government exactly what they asked for, so I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman is complaining.

Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman talks about the Welsh Assembly Government a lot, but has he actually consulted them on his amendment or spoken to anyone about it?

Mr Reid: I have not spoken to anybody in Wales, but I have spoken to plenty of people in Scotland. It is very important that we have devolution throughout the United Kingdom and I think Welsh Members would have been far more likely to complain had I tabled an amendment that simply gave the Scottish Parliament the right to a vote and not the Welsh Assembly. That would have meant more complaints from Welsh Members.

Mr Tom Harris: Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), I note that the hon. Gentleman is daily in touch with Welsh Members of this House. What discussions has he had with them, if not with the Welsh Assembly Government?

12.30 pm

Mr Reid: The important people with whom I always discuss these matters are my constituents, and they are represented in the Scottish and UK Parliaments, not in the Welsh Assembly.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that the inclusion of Wales in this amendment shows my hon. Friend’s generosity of spirit. He is not being selfish about Scotland but is extending the benefits throughout the Union, which is to be greatly admired.

Mr Reid: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. I was slightly concerned that he was going to complain that I had not consulted anyone from Somerset, or included that county. [ Interruption. ] My right hon. Friend the Member for Bath (Mr Foster) reminds me that I did talk to him. I am afraid that I am not au fait with the boundaries of the historic counties in England, but I understood that my right hon. Friend came from Avon, but—

Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): It is called Somerset.

Mr Reid: I must admit that I am not au fait with the boundaries of all the historic counties of England and I hope that hon. Members, whether they are from Somerset or Avon, if I am allowed to use that word, are not offended. I am grateful that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) did not hold it against me that I did not give the county of Somerset a veto.

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Mr MacNeil: Of course, if the power were given to Wales, it would not have to be exercised, but it would be a courtesy to give the power anyway. There is great merit and sense in taking that approach.

Mr Reid: Yes, the hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which answers well the point made by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), who has left the Chamber and did not stay to hear that response. We would be giving the Welsh Assembly a right that they would not have to exercise.

Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend share my concern that we could have consulted the Scottish people if the Bill had been allowed to proceed immediately after its Second Reading, as it could have been debated in the House prior to the Scottish election? The coalition Government decided not to allow the Bill to proceed until after that election. Does he think that was rather a cynical exercise by the Government?

Mr Reid: I had better not express any view on the Government’s actions. I know they took nearly a year to bring forward the money resolution, but I shall merely comment on that in passing without expressing any view about motive. I always prefer to talk about the facts and not to ascribe motives.

Because of the geography of the United Kingdom and the effect that that has on when daylight occurs, it is important that the trial has support throughout the United Kingdom. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all both further north and further west than Greenwich. Being north of Greenwich means that we get fewer hours of daylight in the winter than Greenwich, and it is vital to make the maximum use of those few valuable daylight hours. Being west of Greenwich means that the sun rises and sets later than at Greenwich. The combined effect of being further north and further west means that sunrise is a lot later, and this Bill would make it a further hour later.

Although most of the United Kingdom is west of Greenwich, some parts are east of it. If the clocks were advanced by an hour, the difference in the east of the country between the time on the clock and the natural time—or pre-railway time as the hon. Member for North East Somerset would describe it—would be less than an hour. However, in the parts of the United Kingdom west of Greenwich the time difference would be more than an hour—significantly more in some places. That is why it is extremely important that the trial should have the support of all parts of the United Kingdom.

I was at school during the previous trial and I have a vivid memory of watching a beautiful winter sunrise from the physics lab at school, but then realising that it was nearly 10 o’clock and just how ridiculous it was for the sun to be rising about two hours before midday.

Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman talks about the time when he was at school. Does he think anything has happened since to change the time at which the sun would rise, if there were a repeat experiment?

Mr Reid: No. As the hon. Member for North East Somerset said, there are limits to the powers even of the House or of the European Union. The basic laws of

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physics and astronomy have not changed in the past 40 years. The sun will still rise at the same time on the equivalent day of the year.

I shall give an example from my constituency. On the Isle of Tiree, if the change were made, it would be 10 am before the sun rose in the middle of winter. Further north and west, the sunrise would be even later—at 10.10 am in Stornoway and later still on the Isle of Unst in the Shetlands. To contrast that with Westminster, here even in the depths of winter the sun would rise at 9.4 am. That is more than an hour before it would rise in the northerly and westerly parts of the country. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) refers to the time the sun rises at present. Sunrise now is at 8.4 am; it would be 9.4 am with the proposed change.

Mr Tom Harris: I am sorry to delay the hon. Gentleman. I was making the point, albeit from a sedentary position, that the time difference between sunrise in one part of the country and another will always be the same. He was trying to imply that changing the clocks would somehow reduce the gap between the time that the sun rises in the south and in the north.

Mr Reid: I am grateful for that intervention. I am sorry the hon. Gentleman misunderstood the point that I was trying to make. Even in the depths of winter, sunrise here in London would be at 9.4 am. Because there is a period of twilight before sunrise and after sunset, children going to school in London even in the depths of winter would still be going in half-light, which is the present situation in Scotland. If the change were made, children in London would go to school in the half-light, but children in Scotland would go to school in complete pitch blackness, and it is important to remember that in country areas there are no street lights, so it would literally be pitch black when those children were going to school. At present even in the depths of winter in Scotland, children go to school in the twilight, but the Bill would make them do that in pitch blackness.

Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that, in effect, the promoter of the Bill concedes the points that he makes? What is proposed is that there should be two different time zones in the United Kingdom—one for Scotland, if people there wanted to keep things as they are now, and a different one for the rest of the United Kingdom. Does my hon. Friend not think that is absurd?

Mr Reid: It would indeed be absurd to have two different time zones within the United Kingdom. Hon. Members representing places such as Berwick and Carlisle would probably agree. I do not think there is any possibility of the Bill allowing that to happen, but it would be silly if it did.

I turn now to the road accident statistics. The surveys that took place at the time of the previous trial 40 years ago were inconclusive. That is not just my opinion. That was the view of the Home Secretary at the time, Reginald Maudling, who said:

“The figures are not clear enough to base a decision upon.”—[Official Report, 2 December 1970; Vol. 807, c. 1335.]

The reason for that is that the breathalyser was introduced at the same time, and there is no way of knowing how

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much of the fall in road accidents was due to the introduction of the breathalyser. If the fall had been due to the clock going forward an hour, once the experiment was abandoned and we went back to Greenwich mean time in winter, one would have expected the number of road accidents to increase. But that did not happen; it continued to fall. It has continued to fall simply because we design cars better, we have better road traffic legislation and we educate drivers better.

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point that is often cited. When we look at the data, we see that the graph falls more steeply after the trial, which almost indicates that the trial could have cost lives. Had the trial not occurred, that rapid descent showing the number of people killed in collisions on roads in Great Britain between 1968 and 1971 might have been steeper, meaning that some people who were killed in that period might still be alive today. It is a very serious issue.

Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The words of the Home Secretary of the day sum it up best; the outcome was inconclusive.

This point is relevant to the amendment because one figure that came out of the trial was that whereas during that period road deaths in most of country went down, in the north of Scotland, they went up, and it should be borne in mind that even after the introduction of the breathalyser road deaths in the north of Scotland went up. That is important because it shows that there are different impacts in different parts of the United Kingdom. Therefore, amendment 13 is important.

Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes an important point about the declining number of road accidents in the previous experiment. Current road traffic casualty statistics are still on a downward trajectory, which is welcome, but if we had this experiment, it would be difficult to disentangle the continuation of that downward trend, for a range of other reasons, from the effect of changing the clocks.

Mr Reid: My hon. Friend makes an important point. That is why the Home Secretary of the day concluded that the result was inconclusive.

I tabled amendment 14 to attempt a compromise. My concern is about the dark mornings in my constituency in the depths of winter that will result from the Bill. Passing the amendment would allow the investigatory body to look at other options. My preference would be to bring forward the spring clock change to the middle of February. The October clock change is at the right time because there are eight weeks before the shortest day. Logically, if there were eight weeks in the other direction, the clocks would go forward in the middle of February. The importance of that is that we would avoid the dark winter mornings, but still have the benefit of lighter evenings in March.

Other amendments give specific days for the change of the clocks, but mine is the most suitable because it would allow the investigating committee some flexibility. I realise that it would breach the European directive, so the Government could not make that change even if the

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investigatory group recommended it unless the EU changed the directive. However, it would be an important addition to the Bill to allow the investigatory group to consider the possibility of moving the clocks forward at an earlier date. If its investigations and consultations showed that that was the right move to make, the Minister could be sent to Brussels to try to negotiate a change in the European directive. I am sure that similar issues must arise in the rest of Europe, so that is an option that amendment 14 would leave open

Mr Chope: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but does he share my concern that his amendment is in danger of resulting in the perfect being the enemy of the good? His amendment is perfectly rational, but the reality is that the pressure to have harmonisation of clock changes across Europe is such that the alternative proposal that I put forward would be better than nothing, although not as good as his. Does he agree that my proposal just to extend British summer time and leaving GMT as it is should also be an option available to the committee?

Mr Reid: I think that you would rule me out of order if I spoke to an amendment that had just been voted down, Mr Deputy Speaker.

My amendment would open up other options. The Bill already gives a veto to both Houses of this Parliament, as well as to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. I believe that the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments should also have a veto before the trial goes ahead. Consulting the Ministers is not good enough; the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly must decide. I therefore commend amendment 13 to the House.

12.45 pm

Mr MacNeil: I congratulate the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris). It is rare indeed for a Back Bencher’s Bill to get so far up the parliamentary chain, and she has shown great grace and courtesy in my dealings with her on this issue. Her Bill has perhaps made such progress with the help of the Government, but it is none the less quite an accomplishment. Having said that, I will continue to subject it to intense scrutiny.

I believe that, when people experience the clock change, the head of steam raised by a small but dedicated campaign group will be dramatically outweighed. The 1970 Division in the House was passed by 366 votes to 81, and as I have said, that involved Members not only from Scotland and the SNP but from the north of England and everywhere else. Further south, Portugal has changed back after two experiments. We are in real danger of slipping much further with this; our guard might go down, and we might subject people to an uncomfortable winter.

Having spoken to representatives of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents I tabled an amendment to deal with its concerns about safety, although I do not agree with some of its interpretations. However, if tabling the amendment will put the matter to rest, it is worth doing.

My concerns about the clock change are vast. I remain unconvinced about the potential benefits, and the losses are proven. Many of my concerns are based

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on the data provided by the Lighter Later campaign, which argues that an extra hour of sunlight at the end of the day would be a panacea for the UK’s problems. It claims that people would go outside more, consume less electricity, watch less television, eat better, sleep better, run and swim more, commit fewer crimes, be less afraid to go outside, spend countless billions on tourism and be involved in fewer car accidents. Those projections do not stand up to scrutiny at all, although the change is presented as the greatest thing since sliced bread—

Mr Harris: It sounds like independence.

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman gives me a great opportunity to say that independence will be better than sliced bread.

Mr Chope: Has the hon. Gentleman seen this little postcard-sized piece of paper, which claims that the Bill would

“boost the economy, make the nation happier, save lives, save carbon”?

It goes on to say: “Save the date”. Is not that an example of the gross exaggeration that the supporters of the Bill are using in their tactics to get people to support it?

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman mentions the claim that the provisions would “make the nation happier”. As a result of information that I received from Portugal, it occurred to me yesterday that a measure of happiness might be a country’s divorce rate. So I got my researchers, Christopher Mullins-Silverstein and Xavier Solano, to approach the House of Commons Library and ask for the UK’s divorce rate figures during the trial period from 1968 to 1970. There was a small but significant spike in the divorce rate, which fell back down again after the trial period was over. I am not sure whether the divorce rate is an indicator of happiness—I suppose it could be argued either way—but it certainly went up at that time. Perhaps the morning irritability that I have mentioned was present at the breakfast tables of the United Kingdom, and perhaps it tipped a few people over—

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I hate to interfere with the hon. Gentleman’s pursuit of happiness, but I think that we have got the gist of his argument. We understand that he is against the Bill, but I wonder which amendment he is speaking to at the moment.

Mr MacNeil: I am speaking to amendment 17, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think it important to set the context of the amendment, and that is what I am doing. Claims are made on one side and claims are made on the other, but I am a reasonable, generous and conciliatory man—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] I thank my colleagues for that. I am prepared to inconvenience myself and give a little. I do not have an “all or nothing” mindset, and I have warned the Lighter Later supporters from the outset that if they take an “all or nothing” approach, they are likely to end up getting nothing. The olive branch is still extended.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder whether my hon. Friend has considered fully the problem of the European Union’s not allowing us to proceed with the amendment under

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its directive. Does he feel that a “notwithstanding” clause might have been helpful to overrule the European Communities Act 1972?

Mr MacNeil: I think that European directives and rules are often perceived as guidelines by the continental and the Celtic mind, and—if I may be so bold—as commandments by the Anglo-Saxon mind. If we really intend to investigate the safety issues, a European directive should not be seen as a commandment that can override all such considerations.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder further whether my hon. Friend thinks that if we did have a big fight with Brussels over this, it would increase the happiness of the nation.

Mr MacNeil: That is a very interesting question. Debate, discussion and arguments can of course be invigorating, and can cause serotonin and other useful hormones to flow through the body. The hon. Gentleman may be on to something. I am sure that a considerable constituency in the country would be greatly cheered by a fight with Europe—myself included, certainly when it comes to fishing issues.

Let me return to the amendment, Mr Deputy Speaker. One of my main complaints is that most of the data used by the campaigns are based on simulations and estimates. Dr Elizabeth Garnsey, author of the report on daylight saving that has been used by Lighter Later, has said:

“the data that are being used in the BRE report are simulated data. They are illustrative data—that is, invented data. When you do a simulation of that kind your outputs are going to represent the input assumptions that you made.”

In many senses, those data might not be real. However, I shall try to use only empirical data to prove my point.

The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) was very concerned with the issue of happiness, as, indeed, was the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). I hope that I have pronounced his constituency correctly, as he pronounces mine so well: I hope that I have used the correct Somerset intonations.

On the issue of depression and sunlight, those leading the change campaign have said that more light in the evening can help to abate seasonal affective disorder and depression, using a 1993 study to prove their case. However, Professor Michael Terman, a PhD who works in the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University in America, conducted a study this year that proved the exact opposite, and his findings were supported by Dr Malcolm von Schantz of the University of Surrey. Dr Terman found that darker mornings lead to increased depression, because the body’s natural clock needs morning sunlight in order to operate properly.

Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman has raised an important point. Many people in my constituency, which is in the south-east of England, commute to London daily. Indeed, I was a daily commuter myself before I was elected. In the winter, doing both journeys in the dark is a pretty miserable experience, and I fear that the time change would subject more commuters to more misery in the winter.

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Mr MacNeil: It is not just crofters in the outer Hebrides about whom I worry; I worry about the commuters of Milton Keynes as well. We are talking about human experiences, and it was not the people of the outer Hebrides who were responsible for the reversal of the time change; it was the good people of Milton Keynes, who were experiencing that particular misery over three winters. We should bear it in mind that the Bill commits us to at least 15 months of really dark winters, although I hope that my amendment will get around that to some extent.

To use the obvious example, how do we feel when we have to get out of bed on a dark and dreary morning, rather than when the sun is up? Our entire mood is changed because of the lack of sunlight. If the clocks are changed, nearly all of us will have to wake up and go out in the dark for a longer period of the year. As I said earlier, Portuguese children were found to be irritable and have poor attention, and according to the national association of teachers many fell asleep in the classroom. It is worth noting that this is damaging to young people’s education and that divorce rates increase significantly, so even an experiment has dangerous consequences for many people. On energy consumption, we have heard from Lighter Later that there could be serious energy cost savings as a result of people not needing to consume energy in the evenings. As I stated on Second Reading, this is erroneous, because people would need to turn on appliances on colder, darker winter mornings.

Dr Whiteford: I am concerned about the winter morning issue. Last week my heating in London broke down and I did not even notice because the temperature here is so much higher than it is in more northerly parts. I think people would put on their heating during the coldest part of the night and also when energy is at its most expensive, which will have an impact on not only energy consumption but fuel poverty.

Mr MacNeil: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I know that the cold in Banff and Buchan is balanced only by the warm hearts of its people, and certainly by their good sense in yet again returning an SNP Member. Her points are well made and serious, and indeed they are backed up not only by her own experience, but by evidence from Indiana in the United States and from Portugal. The phones have been busy between my office and Portugal in the last wee while. Mr Rui Agostinho, director of Lisbon’s astronomical observatory, the institution responsible for legal time in Portugal, has said that a company contracted by the European Commission at the time showed that the energy savings gained were ultimately lost with the increase of energy consumption during the morning.

Bob Stewart: Look, we have listened to this all morning. It is clear that we are not absolutely certain what would be the result of a change. Is it not terribly important for us to check by having a trial to determine whether we would actually save more lives and save more energy? All this talk should stop and we should just vote on it now and have the trial.

Mr MacNeil: I admire the hon. and gallant Gentleman’s headlong enthusiasm, but we must reflect before plunging ourselves into 15 months of misery. It can be seriously argued that the change in the late ’60s and early ’70s

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cost lives, because the rate of road accident deaths did not go down as quickly during that period as it did in subsequent years. If I have to repeat myself again and again before that is understood, I will do so. If we disregard such a serious fact and run to a trial, surely we are putting people in danger.

Mr Davey: I have listened to the hon. Gentleman make the point several times about road safety in Scotland. Is he aware that the road safety officer of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents in Scotland has stated on the record that it would welcome such a study?

Mr MacNeil: Many people would welcome the study for a number of reasons, and that organisation would welcome it because it would enable it to get the data. I am just saying that it looks as if the period for getting the data would itself be dangerous.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: Is not the obvious answer to the Minister that the Government could carry out a study any day of the week they felt like and do not need an Act of Parliament to do so?

Mr MacNeil: I thank the hon. Gentleman for a good point, well made.

Although some organisations might want the data to be gathered, the unfortunate side of gathering it is that the rest of us would be living in a laboratory.

Having seen, from looking at the graph in front of me, the line go down less steeply during the experiment than it did afterwards, and the significant change just afterwards, I cannot commit to an entire 15-month period. Being a reasonable man, however, I have looked on the ROSPA website, and the most dangerous month is November, so we should change the clocks, as my amendment seeks, from the end of October to the end of November.

1 pm

November is more dangerous than the darker months of December and January, and that says quite a lot about the darkness argument, but with November being the most dangerous month why do we not change just one month? We would commit ourselves, therefore, to three months of trials rather than 15 months. It might be an inconvenience during November, but as a result we would have a better December, January and February.

Mr Tom Harris: The hon. Gentleman shows a welcome, if surprising, flexibility, but does he not concede the principle of the Bill, which is to have a trial period to gather evidence? If he does concede that, we are really arguing only about periods of time, and surely a longer period will enable us to gather more evidence on which to make a long-term decision.

Mr MacNeil: I say that we should have a series of Novembers. As I have said, I am a conciliatory man, and I have extended an olive branch. Rather than plunge areas of the country north of Manchester into darkness for two months a year, with no sunrise before 9 am, I say, okay, there is an ongoing argument for gathering data, so let us gather data in November, the most dangerous month, instead of over five months of

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winter and for 15 months in total. We could reduce the inconvenience to 20%, and I am fairly confident that, once we introduce those three months, once we have the attendant misery and once we see what comes of that, lighter evenings will not be seen to have such great benefits after all. We will get the taste of the inconvenience without going through the utter misery of an entire winter period.

Bob Stewart: Why is the hon. Member for the islands of Scotland, where I, too, came from once, confident that the month of November will give him the results that he expects? He does not know, and the best way of finding out is to have a flipping trial.

Mr MacNeil: Well, if the hon. Gentleman—

Jacob Rees-Mogg: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will you rule on whether the word—if I may utter it myself—“flipping” is parliamentary?

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Do you know, I think that that word is on the cusp—a bit. It offended me, a little, but I must say that in the heat of the moment I have heard a lot worse in this place.

Mr MacNeil: If the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who advocated European harmonisation earlier, curbs his enthusiasm and goes to the ROSPA website, he will find that the month of November is the most dangerous month. It is by studying what ROSPA says that I have introduced the amendment.

Mr Chope: I recognise the generous spirit in which the hon. Gentleman has introduced the amendment, but has he thought through the implications once every seven years, when the clocks would change on St Andrew’s day?

Mr MacNeil: If the clocks were to change on St Andrew’s day, giving us an extra hour on that day, we might have a 25-hour St Andrew’s day, which would probably be welcome, and—who knows?—I might get some form of promotion from the Scottish Government owing to my initiative of introducing a longer, 25-hour St Andrew’s day.

I am looking for an opportunity, and the glass is half full. By extending this olive branch, I am presenting a half-full glass and an opportunity for the trial, with the other attendant benefits, but the concern that must be listened to most is the safety concern. It is not dealt with by the data, and it was certainly not dealt with by the graph after the trial in the 1970s. Indeed, the trial may have cost lives, so let us have only a three-month period of danger, rather than a 15-month one.

Mark Lazarowicz: I have tried to take all the amendments seriously and at face value. However, I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that it is odd for his party, which is so keen on the European Union, as indeed am I, to want the change of time to take place on a different date from that in the rest of the European Union, which, as we have heard, decided on a common date for changing time, following the example of the UK.

Mr MacNeil: I hear the hon. Gentleman’s concern, but he is again looking for difficulties, whereas I look for opportunities and solutions in life. As I have said, I do not think that European Union directives should be

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seen as commandments. Surely it is not beyond the wit of man for European Union directives, which were constructed in a room by individuals, to be amended or improved. Surely the point of European directives—although perhaps experience shows otherwise—is that they should aid and improve our lives. If a European directive is causing difficulty in our lives, we should ask our Government to go to Europe to change it. We could then test out this measure and have some resolution. Rather than having 15 months of misery, changing the European directive could make the period shorter.

Mark Lazarowicz: The issue is not with a European directive. The fact is that the time difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK and Europe would change in October, and then travel and airline times would change again a month later. This is about the inconvenience for travellers, not about a directive or matters of principle.

Mr MacNeil: When the hon. Gentleman mentions Europe, perhaps he should consider a comparison between Paris and London, which are reasonably close to each other geographically. Paris has lighter evenings, but it has a higher accident rate. The factor of daylight does not appear to be the overriding factor in road safety; there are many other factors. The point is made time and again that the extra hour of daylight will be a panacea for road traffic deaths.

Mr Reid: The European directive is important because in the days before it, ferry and airline timetables were full of footnotes about countries changing their clocks at different times. The hon. Gentleman’s amendments are also important in starting a consultation. After the consultation, if the consensus is for the change that he suggests, the Minister could then go to Brussels to negotiate it.

Mr MacNeil: There is eminent sense in the approach of talking, rather than rushing headlong into a miserable trial. That is where the real danger is.

In the period when the clocks were not put back in winter, the decline in the number of road deaths slowed. If last winter we had gone back to the number of road deaths that we had in the winter of the trial period between’68 and ’71, there would have been three times the number of road deaths. We also now have faster cars and more cars on the road. The argument on safety, which is made with an air of moral certainty, has to be taken on and the data must be challenged. I hope that that is what I am doing. I do not like the moralising tone that is sometimes used towards me when I am looking after the interests of my constituents and the interests of young children and their education, particularly as those arguments are eminently challengeable.

Mr Offord: The hon. Gentleman is correct about the causal links in the accident rate. In my time at Barnet council, I oversaw a 40% reduction in the number of people killed or seriously injured. That had nothing to do with light or darkness; it was to do with removing speed humps and reconfiguring road junctions. It was those policies that reduced the KSIs in my area.

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. There is a danger that we will be distracted from the more important road safety issues if we imagine that the extra hour is a panacea. The measures that he

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mentions are probably far more important than the light at a particular hour, which is distracting far too many people when there are safety measures that need to be used.

I am struck by the fact that road deaths fell by 300 between the winter of 2009 and the winter of 2010-11. Had the moves in the previous Parliament to have lighter evenings during the winter succeeded, a causal link would have been drawn between the lighter evenings and the drop in deaths. As we now know, that reduction in deaths happened anyway, with darker evenings. It is dangerous to make assumptions and links between lighter evenings and deaths on the roads, particularly as the rate of deaths decreased immediately after the study of the late 1960s and the ’70s. Perhaps that study delayed the rate of the decrease.

I move back to energy. The data used to support the changes seem to have a serious flaw. The campaign’s main source of data is 24 studies on the effect of lighter evenings. Of those 24, only six were empirical studies and the rest were simulations. The paper examining them found that 15 studies concluded that there were energy savings. Of those 15, approximately two were empirical studies and 10 were simulations. The odd thing about the simulations is that they showed savings of 0.2% and 2%, and another study showed a saving of 0%. Surely a 0% saving could also be called a 0% loss. The information that we have from Indiana, Portugal and elsewhere shows that energy would be lost, not saved, if the change was made, and there would not be safety gains.

As for tourism, my amendment suggesting that the studies be carried out in November would ensure that it could not benefit from another month of “lighter later”. That would be a perfect compromise for many of us who need to find consensus, extend an olive branch and find middle ground. I fear that an all-or-nothing campaign would yield exactly nothing.

Mr Davey: These amendments address the role of the devolved Administrations, and I therefore think it would assist the debate if I explained how the Bill’s provisions would affect the devolution settlements.

The subject of time zones is devolved in respect of Northern Ireland but reserved in respect of Scotland and Wales. However, as I have said before, the Government believe that the issue requires UK-wide consensus. The Government will consult the Welsh and Scottish Governments fully on any proposed trial or any proposal to make a trial permanent. The Government would not expect to proceed with a trial if, following those consultations, there was clear opposition from any part of the country.

While we are on the subject of devolution I will say that I believe there may have been some confusion in Committee about the position regarding legislative consent motions of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Such a motion is required in respect of this Bill, not in respect of a daylight saving order. The motion is required before the Bill completes its parliamentary passage. We approached the Northern Ireland Administration about taking the matter forward, and the Government’s continued

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1018

support for the Bill depends upon the legislative consent motion being passed in due course. That will have no effect on the Bill’s provision requiring the agreement of the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland, which reflects the point that time is devolved in respect of Northern Ireland.

As I said, the position of the Bill reflects the devolution settlement. Consultation with the devolved Executives is common, and it is appropriate in this instance. It would allow for discussion to take place on the issues involved and on any concerns. Moreover, the devolved Governments are accountable to their legislatures.

Mr MacNeil: The Minister and I discussed this matter back and forward at some length in Committee. Given the measures that he is outlining, would it be possible for the Government here in Westminster to override the wishes of the Scottish Government?

Mr Davey: We have made it clear that that is not our intention, and that we will listen to all parts of the United Kingdom. We would not expect to proceed if there were clear opposition from other parts of the UK. The devolved Governments may wish to put the matter before their Parliament or Assembly, but that would be a matter for them. For that reason, we think that amendment 13, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), is inappropriate. We consider it a matter for the devolved Administrations.

On amendments 16 and 17, my hon. Friend talked about changing the dates of summer time, but I have dealt with those issues in previous debates.

1.15 pm

Philip Davies: The Ministers says that he is determined that this will not go ahead without the agreement of people in Scotland and Wales, as well as Northern Ireland, so why will he not accept that being made clear in the Bill? If that is his intention, he has nothing to lose from making it clear in the Bill. He might be prepared to seek their agreement, but he might move onwards and upwards in the future, leaving someone else in his position, so we need a safeguard to ensure that his successors will adopt the same procedure.

Mr Davey: The position that I have set out is the policy of the Government, irrespective of whether I am the Minister responsible. I said that time is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland but not in Scotland and Wales, which is why we have adopted this formula.

Mr Chope: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Davey: No.

The Bill also provides for the devolved Executives to be consulted about any proposals to increase the trial period, and their views will be fully taken into account. The power to lengthen the trial will be available from the date of the report, and if the report indicated that a longer trial was necessary, that power could be exercised to lengthen the trial before the devolved Executives gave their view on whether to have a trial. That means that they would know then about the trial’s expected length, so the amendment that suggests otherwise misses the point.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1019

Asking for reports from the First Ministers, as proposed in amendment 38, is neither necessary nor appropriate. The Secretary of State will monitor the effects of the order for the whole country, and is the person best placed to do so, but the First Ministers would, of course, be welcome to submit anything that they might wish for the Secretary of State to consider. It would not be appropriate for the House, through this Bill, to require any report from the First Ministers or to impose any costs on them. After all, they are devolved Administrations.

Mr MacNeil: Would the devolved Administrations have full access to the data on which the report was based? Furthermore, we are getting Government policy from the Minister but I would be much more comfortable if it was written into the Bill.

Mr Davey: Of course, the devolved Administrations will have access to the report and the data on which it was based. That is how the Government have approached the whole issue. We have worked hard to get consensus at this stage, because we want consensus at all stages. I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that assurance. I have checked the record of the Committee stage, and it appears that I made it clear on no fewer than 13 separate occasions that the Government would not expect to carry out a trial or make any change if there was clear opposition from any part of the country. I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute and other right hon. and hon. Members. It is clear that we want consensus.

Dr Whiteford: I do not intend to take up too much of the House’s time today. I regret that it is so easy to use the procedures of the House to inhibit rather than enable constructive debate on an issue that is so serious, particularly for my constituents in the north of Scotland.

When we debated this matter before, I approached it with an open mind. I thought that after 40 years it was important to consider the evidence, the changes since the last review and possible ways of moving forward. I was keen to speak on this group of amendments, particularly amendments 16 and 17, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), because I am concerned that exaggerated claims have been made for the outcomes of the Bill. When I looked at the evidence, I found that it did not always stack up: it seemed simplistic; it drew conclusions that could not be attributed to the evidence presented; most of it was theoretical and there was little empirical data; and, above all, it took little account of other attendant factors that might prove critical in the overall picture.

Any policy changes need to be based on the reality of geography, the environment and our body clock, not to put too fine a point on it. The reality for people in the north and west of these islands is that in the heart of winter we have only seven hours of daylight a day at most. People already go to and from school and work in the dark. The question is not just how we use the limited amount of daylight available to us; perhaps more importantly, it is how we minimise the inconveniences of that limited amount of daylight, and of working and living in the dark.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1020

For me, the critical issue and the reason why amendments 16 and 17 are so important is that the dark days coincide with the cold winter months. It is not just the darkness; the cold compounds the effects of the dark. In more northerly parts and on higher ground, temperatures are significantly lower. The coldest time of day is the hours just before dawn, which is exactly when more people will be moving around, going to school or work, if the changes are introduced.

In Aberdeenshire, gritters grit our roads for seven months of the year. They do not do it every day, but from October to April we must protect our commuters from frosty roads, which are undoubtedly dangerous. One thing that has come out of the debate on these amendments and others is that it is hard to attribute road safety to factors involving daylight or darkness. It is much easier to say that a whole lot of other factors have an effect: driver behaviour, road conditions and, above all, weather conditions. These can be treacherous not just for drivers but for pedestrians. One need only look at an accident and emergency department on a morning when pavements are icy to see people with broken wrists, arms and hips. The dangers are real, and they are exacerbated in the hours before daylight when the ice has not yet melted. That is key, and it is why people in my part of the world feel so strongly about the issue. They do not want to expose themselves to more of the same.

Some of the other myths that need to be discussed a bit more include the myth about tourism. The great luxury of being on holiday is that people can get up exactly when they like and do whatever they like. If they are on a holiday involving field sports, they might get up in the middle of the night anyway, to optimise their use of time. By the same token, if they want to lie in until 10 or 11 am, they can.

I welcome the Government’s approach in saying that they want consensus, but as other Members have said, unless there is something in legislation to pin the matter down, it is hard to have confidence in that kind of language. Both the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) and that tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—I do not know that I say that quite as well as the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—seek those reassurances.

Mr Davey: Will the hon. Lady confirm that in the Bill we have done what the SNP asked us to do? What we said in Committee and in our press releases, and what I have reconfirmed today, goes further than the SNP asked us to, in order to ensure that we represented Scottish interests and got consensus.

Dr Whiteford: I absolutely recognise the progress that the Minister has made. It is good, but we need safeguards. I am not the only person who takes with a little pinch of salt some of Government Front Benchers’ assurances. We would like the issue pinned down in a way that will give us assurances and alleviate some of the concerns of people in Scotland, who face a disproportionate negative impact from any trial that goes ahead. I would like some sort of trial to gather empirical data, and I think that the proposals made are one way to do so without exposing people to unnecessary risk.

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Mr MacNeil: Does my hon. Friend feel, as I do, that the safeguards that we are looking for are a way of fixing the goalposts? At the moment, there is a danger—the Minister refused to say that it was not possible—that the Government might renege, change their mind, choose another policy or override Scotland. We just want the goalposts fixed so that we know the terms of reference. Then we could move on quite happily.

Dr Whiteford: That is right, and I agree.

I will conclude my remarks, because I know that other people want to speak. Ultimately, it is a quality of life issue. One thing that struck me after the last debate on the Bill was that a huge number of people from England, mostly older people who remember the last trial, got in touch with me by letter, phone or e-mail. They all said the same thing: “This was a disaster when they did it in the ’70s.” They found it miserable getting up, going to work and delivering things in the dark. People who remember it did not like it. Ultimately, that has to be our arbiter: is this going to be helpful for our quality of life? I know that it is going to impact more on my part of the world than some other parts of these islands. For the sake of our health and well-being, we need to think carefully before messing around with something that might not need to be changed.

Philip Davies: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) on getting her private Member’s Bill this far. She has certainly got much further than I have with any of mine. I think mine got no further than being heavily defeated on Second Reading—largely by my hon. Friends! I also commend my hon. Friend for the way in which she has conducted herself, always remaining in good humour. In common with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), I think she has great charm; I thought that she was charming only me, so I was disappointed to find out that she had charmed my hon. Friend as well!

I shall speak to the amendments I have tabled in this group, starting with amendment 30, which gets to the nub of the issue. It is similar to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), who wanted to ensure that the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly agreed to any trial before it went ahead. My amendment would achieve something similar, but it relates to subsection (4) rather than subsection (3).

As the provision is drafted, we have the curious position whereby we have to

“obtain the agreement of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland”—

something I wholeheartedly support—

yet only

“consult the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers.”

I have heard the debate and heard the assurances both from the Minister and from my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point that, as far as they are concerned, no trial will go ahead if there is opposition from Scotland, Wales or other parts of the United Kingdom. That is fine: I accept those assurances and I accept their intention. What we have to deal with, however, is what is in the Bill before us, and notwithstanding all the good intentions, that is not what the Bill says.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1022

Mr MacNeil: While our debate has continued, another issue that I had not considered has been brought to my attention—that the provisions are anti-working mothers. A woman, Mrs Marybell Galbraith, who lived in Glasgow with her children in the ’60s, e-mailed me to say:

“My children and myself suffered from this”—

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We are supposed to be debating the amendment tabled by Mr Philip Davies, which has nothing to do with the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make.

Philip Davies: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will press on, as I am sure you and others would wish me to do.

If the intention of my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point and the Minister is to get agreement from Scotland and Wales before a trial goes ahead, I fail to see any possible objection to making that clear in the Bill. The Minister said that he had made progress with the Bill in a way that maximised consensus. As far as I can see, consensus can win out. All it needs is for my hon. Friend and the Minister to say that they will accept my amendment so that

“agreement from the Scottish First Minister and the First Minister of Wales”

is obtained before a trial goes ahead. At that point, I can sit down and allow the Bill to progress. I see no reason why this should be a stumbling block, given that my amendment proposes the intention of my hon. Friend and the Minister in any case.

Mr Tom Harris: The Bill is carefully worded so as to respect the devolution settlement. Responsibility for changing the hours is devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, but it is not devolved to the Scottish Parliament and every piece of legislation that comes before this House must respect the Scotland Act 1998. As a pro-devolutionist, I firmly believe that, but the SNP wants to undermine devolution because it opposes it. The hon. Gentleman should be careful about aligning himself with the separatists.

Philip Davies: I have drawn exactly the opposite conclusion. What the hon. Gentleman says may be true in terms of the niceties of the legislation, but I understand that, like me, he wants to preserve the United Kingdom, and giving an additional safeguard to people in Scotland and in Wales is a much better way of safeguarding the UK than trying to railroad something through against the wishes of those people and using some legal nicety to try to justify that action. That is not a sensible approach.

1.30 pm

Mark Lazarowicz: I agree with the hon. Gentleman on this point. It is not separatists who say that they want to give more powers within the existing devolution settlement to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, and therefore I hope that his amendment is successful.

Philip Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support, and I am pleased that he accepts that I am trying to entrench the Union and make people in Scotland and Wales feel more part of it.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1023

Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Philip Davies: I will give way one last time, but then I want to make progress.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I just wondered whether my hon. Friend had noticed the time on the clock, because had the Bill already come into force, the debate would by now have ended.

Philip Davies: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that observation.

My amendment 35 deals with the length of the trial period, which the Bill proposes should be three years. I return to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) made earlier about a city in Kazakhstan that had been built in 15 years; we seem to need three years to conduct this trial but I do not see why it needs to last that long. His amendment 85, in this group, recommends reducing the period to two years, which I would welcome. However, my amendment 35 urges the promoter of the Bill to reduce the trial period to just one year, because we can get a perfectly good flavour of what is going to happen in that time. Of course there would then be the opportunity, if everyone so wished, to carry out another trial beyond that period. I do not see why we should be boxed into having a three-year trial, as that is totally unnecessary.

My amendment 38 deals with the monitoring of the effect of the order. Clause 6, to which my amendment relates, provides for a situation in which the Secretary of State monitors the effect of the order “throughout the period” and then lectures all the parts of the United Kingdom—the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly—on his conclusions and, therefore, what he thinks should happen. My amendment merely asks that reports are also sought from the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly, so that they can equally make it clear what their report on the trial is. Rather than just having the Secretary of State laying down the law, it is only fair that we let those parts of the United Kingdom not only have their say but be seen to have their say, which is not the case at the moment.

Amendment 40 would delete clause 8, which relates to the power to increase the length of the trial period. I think that a trial period of three years is on the excessive side, so I obviously find it nonsensical to have a clause that then gives a power to extend the trial period. The period is already too long, so we should delete any clause that gives a power to increase it; we really should be able to make a decision after three years.

I repeat that I am most concerned about amendment 30, but I am aware that amendment 40 may not be accepted—I do not know whether it will be or not. If it is not accepted by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point and the Minister, two further amendments I have tabled—amendments 42 and 43—would provide the House with an alternative. Basically, before an order is made to extend the trial we should either gain agreement from the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly—along the lines of the amendment promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute—or we should obtain agreement from the First Minister in Scotland, the First Minister in Wales and the First Minister in Northern Ireland,

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1024

whichever option the House prefers. It seems to me that if we want to obtain the agreement of the Scottish Government or Ministers or the Welsh Government or Ministers before we start a trial, and if we want a clause that gives the power to increase the length of the trial, we must go through the same process to ensure that we are not railroading something through against the wishes of those people.

I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute was satisfied by the Minister’s response on amendment 13.

Mr Reid indicated assent.

Philip Davies: He is a much more generous man than I am, and I am sure that he has taken the Minister’s word at face value. I would be the first to accept that I am more cynical. I have seen evidence of Ministers saying one thing with the best intentions in the world and then it did not quite turn out that way. I heard Ministers say that they were going to have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, but when it came to it they did not. I do not want just to rely on the word of the Minister, although I accept the good faith in which he made his point. He might move on to pastures new, however, and the Bill does not mention the Government’s view. It says what the Secretary of State will do, not the Government. The Minister might well be expressing the intention of the current Secretary of State, but before we get to any trial we might have a different Secretary of State who holds a different view and comes from a different party.

Mr Reid: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. For the avoidance of doubt, I want to put it on the record that I am delighted to accept the assurances that my hon. Friend the Minister gave. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is concerned that this might not apply to a future Secretary of State, but my hon. Friend the Minister gave his assurances on behalf of the Government, so they apply to any future Minister in the Government.

Philip Davies: That is very helpful. I feared that my hon. Friend was going in that direction, so I would certainly wish to press amendment 30 to a vote as it encapsulates the flavour of the lead amendment and would make that requirement clear in the Bill.

The Bill says that the Secretary of State

“must consult the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers.”

That is slightly ambiguous, and I hope the Minister will confirm that the Scottish Ministers and Welsh Ministers are the Ministers in the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament and not the Ministers in the Scotland Office and the Wales Office. It would be perverse if the Secretary of State was consulting another Secretary of State to get something through that the Government wanted. I hope that the Government would be consulting a different body—the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly—but that is not entirely clear from the Bill or from the glossary of terms at the back of it.

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman’s remark about the European Union reminded me of how things change in politics. I can remember in the last Parliament the Liberal Democrats walking out of the Chamber on the

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1025

question of an in/out referendum. Now, the people who led that have found themselves in government and things have changed. Things could change again, which is why we need guarantees rather than intentions. We need the goalposts to be fixed so that we know exactly where we all stand.

Philip Davies: I agree and I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman clearly supports my amendment. Our job in this House is to ensure that we have proper safeguards in place, based not on wishy-washy assurances but on provisions on the face of the Bill. We do not want to find that when we have passed something we have been sold a pup on an issue that is too important to the future of the United Kingdom for a decision to be based merely on assurances. I do not want to go on as I do not want to test the patience of the House or of my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point because she has conducted herself so well and I do not want to scupper the chances of our debating the next group of amendments. On that basis, I shall leave my comments there, but I want to make it clear that if the my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute withdraws his amendment I would like to pursue my amendment 30, which is the second amendment in this group.

Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36), but the Deputy Speaker withheld his assent and declined to put that Question.

Mr Nuttall: I will not detain the House for long, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have had a long debate already on this group of amendments and I am conscious that a closure motion has already been requested, but I want to deal with some specific amendments in this group. Before I do so, let me reiterate the thanks I expressed to my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) when the House considered the money resolution. She has shown exemplary courtesy and great determination to ensure that the Bill got to this stage. As I said in that debate, although I did not vote to curtail debate on Second Reading, I supported the Bill on Second Reading and I intend to vote today for amendments that will strengthen the Bill and help it to achieve its objectives. I appreciate that many people would like a trial to take place and I take cognisance of that regardless of my personal views about whether it is a good or bad thing permanently to change the time in this country.

Leaving aside for the moment lead amendment 13, because my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) has indicated that he is prepared to accept what the Minister has said about it, I hope that we will be given the opportunity to divide on amendment 30. At a time when the whole question of Scottish independence is rising up the political agenda in a way that it never has before, some of the Bill’s provisions seem somewhat perverse. I can well imagine separatists in Scotland seizing on clause 4(4), which clearly treats Scotland, and indeed Wales, differently from Northern Ireland. I see no reason why we should not accept amendment 30 so that agreement is required from the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1026

Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend accept that an alternative way of dealing with this problem so far as Scotland is concerned would have been for the Government to have moved an amendment to the Scotland Bill, which is still going through the other place, to make this issue a devolved matter for Scotland in the same way as it is devolved for Northern Ireland?

Mr Nuttall: That would, indeed, have been one way of dealing with this matter.

Although I support amendment 30, I strongly oppose amendments 35 and 85. I am often in favour of the amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and, indeed, those of my hon. Friends the Members for Christchurch (Mr Chope), for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who tabled amendment 85. On this occasion, however, I am not in favour of their amendment, because I think we need a trial period of three years. If the trial is successful and the change proves to be of benefit and to achieve all that the Bill’s proponents say it will achieve, that will lead to a permanent change in our time system that will affect every person in the country. Given those circumstances, it is only fair and reasonable that the trial should be for a minimum of three years. So I would oppose amendments 35 and 85 and stick to the wording of clause 5(1), which provides that the trial period be three years.

Amendments 16 and 17 highlight the fact that even our time is a matter that the European Union has felt it necessary to interfere with, and it has done so by means of European directive 200/84/EC.

1.45 pm

Mark Lazarowicz: Why does the hon. Gentleman feel obliged to bring anti-Europeanism into everything? I do not think the directive was opposed by the UK; I think the UK was one of the key supporters of a directive, so why suggest that it was forced upon us by Europe?

Mr Nuttall: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. My view is that we should not be told what to do on any matter by the European Union. I have a very clear view on such matters. Many people in this country are not aware of the existence of the directive or of its effect. It is another example of the way in which the tentacles of the European Union extend into areas of life into which many people do not realise they extend.

There will be difficulty in ever achieving the aims of amendments 16 or 17, but in any event I think we should stick to the existing arrangement for changing the clocks in March and October, despite the fact that that it means that my birthday is fairly often affected by the change in the clocks in the springtime when, as I think is the case this year, we jump on one hour and I lose an hour of my birthday.

It has been suggested that amendment 38 would result in extra costs being incurred. I am not so sure that it would. I strongly support the amendment. All it calls for are reports from the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They could simply write a brief letter saying, “Yes, we have considered the matter and everything is in order. There is no need to consult

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1027

us any further.” Amendment 38 is sound and it would be sensible for it to receive the support of the House and be included in the Bill.

I oppose amendment 40. As I said about clause 5, in view of the importance of the matter, it makes sense to have a trial period of an appropriate length. If an increase in the length of the trial period is necessary, so be it. Let us have that increase.

Philip Davies: That is a perfectly respectable view for my hon. Friend to hold, although I might disagree. The question is about the basis on which we decide that we need a further period of trial. We seem to be leaving it to the Government and the Secretary of State to decide. We surely cannot have that, or the trial will be extended endlessly, which surreptitiously makes it a permanent fixture.

Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a good point, but I notice that clause 8(4) states:

“An order under this section is subject to affirmative resolution procedure”,

so there would be some democratic oversight of the use of the power, which most people would find satisfactory.

Those are my thoughts and that is how I will be voting.

Mr Knight again claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr Reid: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am happy to accept the reassurances that the Minister gave me during the debate, and I would therefore like to beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is unable to do that. We are now voting on whether the question be now put, and if the decision of the House is that the question be now put, that is what I will do. If the question is negatived, the hon. Gentleman might have an opportunity later in the debate to withdraw his amendment.

There seems to be some delay in the No Lobby. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate it.

The House having divided:

Ayes 124, Noes 10.

Division No. 433]

[1.49 pm

AYES

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Alexander, Heidi

Allen, Mr Graham

Barker, Gregory

Barwell, Gavin

Bayley, Hugh

Bell, Sir Stuart

Betts, Mr Clive

Blackman-Woods, Roberta

Blomfield, Paul

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brake, rh Tom

Brooke, Annette

Bruce, Fiona

Buck, Ms Karen

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cruddas, Jon

Davey, Mr Edward

Davis, rh Mr David

de Bois, Nick

Docherty, Thomas

Dowd, Jim

Efford, Clive

Ellison, Jane

Elphicke, Charlie

Fabricant, Michael

Field, rh Mr Frank

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Foster, rh Mr Don

Gale, Sir Roger

Gapes, Mike

Gauke, Mr David

Glen, John

Godsiff, Mr Roger

Goldsmith, Zac

Greatrex, Tom

Greening, rh Justine

Gummer, Ben

Halfon, Robert

Hammond, Stephen

Hands, Greg

Harper, Mr Mark

Harris, Rebecca

Harris, Mr Tom

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Heald, Oliver

Heath, Mr David

Herbert, rh Nick

Heyes, David

Hilling, Julie

Hodge, rh Margaret

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Hughes, rh Simon

Huhne, rh Chris

Huppert, Dr Julian

Jackson, Glenda

Jarvis, Dan

Jones, Andrew

Jones, Graham

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Kelly, Chris

Knight, rh Mr Greg

Lazarowicz, Mark

Lee, Jessica

Leech, Mr John

Leslie, Charlotte

Leslie, Chris

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lloyd, Stephen

Lopresti, Jack

Lucas, Caroline

Macleod, Mary

McCarthy, Kerry

McDonnell, John

Metcalfe, Stephen

Michael, rh Alun

Morris, David

Munn, Meg

Munt, Tessa

Murray, Ian

Neill, Robert

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

O'Brien, Mr Stephen

Ottaway, Richard

Owen, Albert

Paice, rh Mr James

Pawsey, Mark

Penning, Mike

Penrose, John

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Pound, Stephen

Randall, rh Mr John

Reid, Mr Alan

Ruddock, rh Dame Joan

Sanders, Mr Adrian

Sandys, Laura

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Slaughter, Mr Andy

Smith, rh Mr Andrew

Stewart, Bob

Syms, Mr Robert

Tami, Mark

Tredinnick, David

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vaz, Valerie

Vickers, Martin

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa

Walley, Joan

Weatherley, Mike

Webb, Steve

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittingdale, Mr John

Yeo, Mr Tim

Tellers for the Ayes:

Simon Kirby and

Penny Mordaunt

NOES

Bone, Mr Peter

Davies, Philip

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Hosie, Stewart

MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan

Offord, Mr Matthew

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Smith, Henry

Stewart, Iain

Whiteford, Dr Eilidh

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr Christopher Chope and

Mr David Nuttall

Question accordingly agreed to.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1028

Question put accordingly, That the amendment be made.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1029

The House having divided:

Ayes 11, Noes 119.

Division No. 434]

[2.4 pm

AYES

Bone, Mr Peter

Chope, Mr Christopher

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Davies, Philip

Doyle-Price, Jackie

MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan

Nuttall, Mr David

Offord, Mr Matthew

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Smith, Henry

Stewart, Iain

Tellers for the Ayes:

Stewart Hosie and

Dr Eilidh Whiteford

NOES

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Alexander, Heidi

Allen, Mr Graham

Barker, Gregory

Barwell, Gavin

Bayley, Hugh

Bell, Sir Stuart

Betts, Mr Clive

Blackman-Woods, Roberta

Blomfield, Paul

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brake, rh Tom

Brooke, Annette

Bruce, Fiona

Buck, Ms Karen

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cruddas, Jon

Davey, Mr Edward

de Bois, Nick

Docherty, Thomas

Dowd, Jim

Efford, Clive

Ellison, Jane

Elphicke, Charlie

Fabricant, Michael

Field, rh Mr Frank

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Foster, rh Mr Don

Gale, Sir Roger

Gapes, Mike

Gauke, Mr David

Glen, John

Godsiff, Mr Roger

Goldsmith, Zac

Greatrex, Tom

Greening, rh Justine

Gummer, Ben

Halfon, Robert

Hammond, Stephen

Hands, Greg

Harris, Rebecca

Harris, Mr Tom

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Heald, Oliver

Heath, Mr David

Herbert, rh Nick

Heyes, David

Hilling, Julie

Hodge, rh Margaret

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Hughes, rh Simon

Huhne, rh Chris

Huppert, Dr Julian

Jarvis, Dan

Jones, Andrew

Jones, Graham

Jowell, rh Tessa

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Kelly, Chris

Knight, rh Mr Greg

Lee, Dr Phillip

Leech, Mr John

Leslie, Charlotte

Leslie, Chris

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lloyd, Stephen

Lopresti, Jack

Macleod, Mary

McCarthy, Kerry

McDonnell, John

Metcalfe, Stephen

Michael, rh Alun

Morris, David

Munn, Meg

Munt, Tessa

Murray, Ian

Neill, Robert

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

O'Brien, Mr Stephen

Ottaway, Richard

Owen, Albert

Paice, rh Mr James

Pawsey, Mark

Penning, Mike

Penrose, John

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Pound, Stephen

Randall, rh Mr John

Ruddock, rh Dame Joan

Sanders, Mr Adrian

Sandys, Laura

Seabeck, Alison

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Slaughter, Mr Andy

Smith, rh Mr Andrew

Stewart, Bob

Syms, Mr Robert

Tami, Mark

Tredinnick, David

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vaz, Valerie

Vickers, Martin

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa

Walley, Joan

Weatherley, Mike

Webb, Steve

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittingdale, Mr John

Yeo, Mr Tim

Tellers for the Noes:

Penny Mordaunt and

Simon Kirby

Question accordingly negatived.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1030

Clause 9

The end of the trial

Philip Davies: I beg to move amendment 44, page 4, line 4, leave out paragraph (b).

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 73, page 4, line 6, leave out paragraph (c).

Amendment 74, page 4, line 8, leave out subsection (2).

Amendment 75, page 4, line 12, leave out subsection (3).

Amendment 46, page 4, line 12, leave out ‘negative’ and insert ‘the affirmative’.

Amendment 48, page 4, line 23, leave out clause 11.

Amendment 9, in clause 11, page 4, line 24, leave out ‘during’ and insert

‘up to three years after’.

Amendment 20,  page 4, line 28, after ‘Ireland’, insert

‘the Scottish Ministers and the Welsh Ministers’.

Amendment 21,  page 4, line 29, leave out paragraph (b).

Amendment 51,  page 4, line 29, leave out from ‘must’ to end and insert

‘obtain agreement from the Scottish First Minister and the First Minister of Wales.’.

Amendment 15,  page 4, line 29, at end insert—

‘(2A) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this section unless resolutions supporting the order have been passed by the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.’.

Philip Davies: I will try again with this group to persuade my hon. Friends of the merits of the amendments, the purpose of which is not to damage the Bill or prevent it from progressing, but to strengthen it. Lest anyone be in any doubt, some of the amendments in this group are similar to amendments in the previous group. I should make it clear that, as with the previous amendment that we have just voted on, if any of my amendments in this group were accepted at this late stage, I would be happy to support the Bill enthusiastically, because my amendments would, without doubt, strengthen the Bill. However, we have to deal with the Bill as it is and not base our decisions on the assurances that we have received from the Minister.

Amendment 44 would delete clause 9(1)(b). The clause relates to the end of the trial, and I have to say in passing that there seems to be a slight contradiction in the wording of the Bill—it may well just be a legalistic point. The clause is entitled “The end of the trial”, but the first sentence beneath the title states:

“The Secretary of State must, during the trial period, do one of the following”.

I was slightly confused about that, because it seems to give the Secretary of State the power to do one of the things listed at any point in the trial period, not just at the end as suggested by the clause title. Perhaps the Minister might be able to explain why that is the case.

Clause 9(1) states that the Secretary of State must do one of the things listed. The first is to make an order to abandon the trial—that makes sense. The second, in paragraph (b), is to make an order during the trial

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1031

period to advance the time by one hour permanently. Given that the Bill regrettably does not contain the safeguards that I and other hon. Members sought in the previous group of amendments, I wish through amendment 44 to prevent the Secretary of State from making such an order. I do not believe that is appropriate without the safeguards that we have discussed previously, which I will discuss again under this group of amendments.

Amendment 46 relates to clause 9(3), which states:

“An order under subsection (2) is subject to negative resolution procedure.”

All the way through the Bill I have been pleased to see that each provision is subject to the affirmative procedure, but clause 9 appears to me to be the only part of the Bill that is subject to the negative procedure. The amendment is merely intended to change that to the affirmative procedure, which is standard in the rest of the Bill. Given that that procedure has been happily accepted in all other parts of the Bill, I would like to think that the House would be very happy to see it applied to clause 9 too.

The other amendments in this group that relate to clause 9 are amendments 73 to 75, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). I am sure that we all look forward to him speaking at great length about why he introduced them. It seems to me—I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong—that amendment 73 would simply delete clause 9(1)(c). He may well be able to explain why he felt that was so important.

Amendment 74 would delete clause 9(2). I must say that as ever, my hon. Friend was far more alert than me in seeking to do so. It appears to give the Secretary of State wide-ranging powers without any great safeguards. I suspect that is why he has sought to delete that subsection, but of course he may well have had better reasons than that. I am sure he will be able to tell us what they were.

Amendment 75 would delete clause 9(3), which is the subsection setting out that the clause is subject to the negative resolution procedure. My hon. Friend may well have wanted it deleted because he, too, was unhappy with that. I would like to think that my amendment 46 would make his amendment 75 redundant.

Mr Chope: I hope to have the chance to address my amendments, but I will say now that the reason for amendment 75 is that it is consequential on my amendment 74. If amendment 74 succeeded and subsection (2) were left out, there would not be any need for the provisions of subsection (3).

Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am pleased that he has cleared that up.

I am afraid that, through no fault of my own, time is pressing, so we do not have much time to go through these amendments or give them the kind of scrutiny that they deserve—but I shall press on. Amendment 48 would delete clause 11, which gives the Secretary of State the power permanently to advance the time by one hour. I seek to delete the clause partly for the reason that I gave earlier. Given that the amendments in the previous group were not accepted, we should not be giving the Secretary of State this power based on a trial

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1032

period that I do not think has adequate safeguards built into it. To be helpful, however, I tabled amendment 51 to get around that problem. If it were accepted by the Minister and the promoter of the Bill, I would be satisfied and perfectly happy to support the Bill, because it would provide adequate safeguards.

That touches on amendment 15, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), which is similar to his amendment 13 in the previous group. Amendment 51, too, relates to the power to advance time by one hour permanently and not just for the trial period. If we are to do it permanently, it is not only important to obtain the agreement of the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland but essential to obtain the agreement of the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers. To go ahead with a permanent time change without obtaining the agreement of the First Ministers would fatally undermine the future of the United Kingdom. We cannot be seen to railroad the people of Scotland and Wales into something that might be against their wishes and hope that the United Kingdom will stay together. Clearly, it would no longer be sustainable. Whether people thought it appropriate to obtain the agreement of the Scottish or Welsh First Ministers for a trial period is one thing—that is what we voted on in the previous group of amendments—but it must be clear to everybody that if we believe in the United Kingdom, we must obtain that agreement before permanently changing the arrangement. That is what my amendment 51 would do.

My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute has taken a different tack, as he has done throughout. His amendment 15 would do pretty much the same as mine, except that he seeks to obtain the agreement of the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly rather than just the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers. I would be satisfied with either amendment. In fact, I prefer his amendment. I think that the requirement to get the agreement of the Parliament or Assembly as a whole would provide a much better safeguard than the obligation to seek only the agreement of the First Minister. I commend him for having come up with a far better amendment than mine, and I am happy to fall on my sword to pursue his agenda.

Amendments 20 and 21 have been tabled by our friends from the Scottish National party, the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). If I read the amendments correctly—I am sure that they will correct me, if I am wrong—they seek to do exactly what I and my hon. Friend seek in our amendments: to put in place extra safeguards for the consultation of Scotland and Wales. Of the 11 amendments in this group, therefore, four or five would have the same effect. As for the future of the Bill, I must emphasise that it cannot progress unless we make it abundantly clear that we have the endorsement of people in Scotland and Wales, and not just through a consultation, which is what it provides for at the moment. People who are consulted can then simply be ignored. That is totally and utterly unacceptable.

2.30 pm

The Deputy Speaker interrupted the business (Standing Order No. 11(2)).

Bill to be further considered on Friday 27 January.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1033

Business without Debate

Live Music Bill [Lords]

Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee, considered.

Bill read the Third time, and passed , with amendments .

Local Government Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill (Changed to Local Government (Review of Decisions)) Bill

Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee, considered.

Motion made, That the Bill be now read The Third time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Third time on Friday 27 January.

Transparent Taxation (Receipts) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

Firearms (Amendment) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

Face Coverings (Regulation) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

Epilepsy and Related Conditions (Education and Health Services) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.

Local Referendums Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

Recall of Elected Representatives Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1034

Public Bodies (Sustainable Food) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Wednesday 29 February.

Adoption (Leave, Pay and Allowance Arrangements) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March .

Betting Shops Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

Co-operative Housing Tenure Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March .

NHS Acute Medical and Surgical Services (Working Time Directive) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

Master’s Degrees (Minimum Standards) Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (21 October), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 27 April.

Fire Safety (Protection of Tenants) Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (19 November), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 23 March.

Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (21 January), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1035


Kinship Carers (Parental Responsibility Agreements) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March..


National Curriculum (Emergency Life Support Skills) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March..


Metal Theft (Prevention) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.

Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.


National Park Authorities Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.


Activity Centres (Young Persons’ Safety) (Amendment) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

Low Hazard Workplaces (Risk Assessment Exemption) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1036

Self-Employment (Risk Assessment Exemption) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

Health and Safety Consultants (Qualifications) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

Tribunals (Maximum Compensation Awards) Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (17 June), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February.

Public Bodies (Disposal of Assets) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

Volunteering Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (10 June), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February.

Taxation Freedom Day Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (25 November), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 30 March.

BBC Licence Fee Payers (Voting Rights) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March..

Parliament (Amendment) Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (4 March), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 3 February.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1037

Apprenticeships and Skills (Public Procurement Contracts) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March..

Children (Access to Parents) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March.

Safe Standing (Football Stadia) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March..

Building Regulations (Review) Bill [Lords]

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Monday 30 January.

Safety of Medicines Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1038

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

European Union Membership (Economic Implications) [Lords] Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 3 February.

Common Fisheries Policy (Withdrawal) Bill

Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 27 January.

House of Commons Disqualification (Amendment) Bill

Resumption of adjourned debate on Question (9 September), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Hon. Members: Object.

Debate to be resumed on Friday 27 January.

Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is there any way of recording in Hansard that my Metal Theft (Prevention) Bill was objected to by the Conservative Front-Bench team and the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands)?

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I think that the hon. Gentleman has just done that.

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1039

Pension Funds (Fiduciary Duties)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Greg Hands.)

2.41 pm

Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham) (Lab): I wish to make a few comments on the fiduciary duty of pension fund trustees. It is just over a year since the Minister and I stood here to discuss the issue of responsible investment by pension funds, and in that debate we focused particularly on transparency for fund members. So to begin with it is worth taking stock of a few developments that have occurred since we last discussed these issues.

First, in recent weeks, the notion of “responsible capitalism” has risen to the top of the political agenda. A cross-party consensus has emerged that shareholders must do more to tackle irresponsible corporate behaviour such as excessive top pay. Secondly, we have entered 2012, the year of auto-enrolment, a process that will ultimately see millions of workers begin saving for a pension through the capital markets. Thirdly, casting our minds back to the autumn statement, we have seen the Government turning to pension funds as a source of capital to fuel the economic recovery through infrastructure investment.

If we put all that together, it becomes clear that the way pension funds invest is no longer, as the Minister put it in our last discussion, “a minority sport”, but a matter of acute national concern. Although much has been made of the rise of foreign investors, UK pension funds still make up 13% of the UK stock market, with insurance companies that provide pension products making up another 12%. So it is vital that this huge pool of capital is invested responsibly in the long-term interests of pension savers. Unfortunately, as a report published last year by responsible investment charity FairPensions showed, current interpretations of the law may hinder that objective. Fiduciary duties—our main legal mechanism for protecting those who entrust their money to someone else—do not apply consistently across the pensions market. Worse still, they are generally interpreted as forbidding pension funds from raising their sights beyond quarterly returns. Far from protecting savers’ long-term interests, that view may in fact be damaging to them.

Clarification of this seemingly obscure and technical area of the law could unlock positive change in a range of areas: supporting jobs and growth; ensuring decent pensions; and underpinning the shift to a more responsible, resilient capitalism. The Prime Minister has indicated that the Government want to give shareholders more powers to block excessive pay deals. That is obviously welcome, but more searching questions need to be asked about how shareholders are using the rights they already have. Figures released by PIRC—Pensions Investment Research Consultants Ltd—last week showed that since the introduction of the advisory vote on pay 10 years ago just 18 remuneration packages have been voted down, despite the fact that pay has risen out of all proportion to shareholder returns. Why has there been such reluctance to use these powers?

Most pension funds do not exercise voting rights themselves, but delegate to fund managers, whose duties are unclear. FairPensions’ report argues that fund managers have fiduciary duties under common law—a view shared

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1040

by the Law Commission—but that is not generally accepted by the industry. That means that the strict duty to avoid conflicts of interest is not being applied to the people actually making the decisions. That has real implications for the way in which votes are cast by City fund managers who have business relationships with the companies in which they invest.

A recent article in Butterworths Journal of International Banking and Financial Law cited anecdotal evidence of

“corporate or investment banking staff overtly or subtly pressuring their asset management colleagues to avoid antagonising their clients by voting against the CEO’s pay arrangements.”

Meanwhile, pension funds are often labouring under the misapprehension that their fiduciary duty prohibits them from taking an interest in Bob Diamond’s bonuses, for example, when, of course, properly understood, that is very much part of that duty.

The pervasive myth that fiduciary duty begins and ends with maximising returns leads many funds to neglect intangible factors—excessive pay or poor environmental standards—even though they may well affect the long-term returns that matter most to pension savers. The misconception seems to put some trustees off being active owners of the companies in which they invest, notwithstanding efforts through the UK stewardship code to encourage them to do so. Still less do funds believe that they can take account of the moral outrage felt by their members over excessive pay deals.

Such interpretations continue to hold back pension funds’ potential to play their part in a more responsible capitalism. To put it simply, we cannot have responsible capitalism if the capitalists think that the law prohibits them from acting responsibly.

I want briefly to return to the subject of transparency, which we talked about a year ago. Making companies more accountable to shareholders will not be enough to tackle “crony capitalism”: shareholders must also become accountable to the ordinary savers whose capital they invest. Among other things, that means much greater transparency about what is being done with our money. At the moment, if I want to know how my pension fund voted on Barclays’ remuneration report, for example, it is not obliged to tell me. In his response last year, the Minister promised to raise the issue with the chair of the Pensions Regulator. I would be grateful if he updated the House on the results of their conversation and on any further developments.

Narrow interpretations of fiduciary duty risk holding back not only the responsible capitalism agenda but the economic recovery. Pension savers have a clear interest in the health of the UK economy. It affects not only the growth of their investments but their economic well-being more generally as UK citizens, jobholders and taxpayers. The Treasury has picked up on that and observed that obvious common interest when encouraging pension funds to invest in UK infrastructure. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury said in a recent speech to the National Association of Pension Funds:

“Your investment in the UK economy can drive economic change and that change should generate more stable and sustainable returns, benefitting Britain’s pensioners.”

The same logic can be applied to investment in the small and medium-sized companies that are the engine of future job generation in our economy, but that is not the logic that underpins pension fund decision making

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1041

in practice. We are back to the mantra of the fiduciary duty to maximise returns, which dictates that return must be sought wherever it is found. Given a direct choice between two competing investments, there is no reason for pension funds to invest in the UK rather than, say, China. Indeed, most funds would say that the law legally obliges them to choose the latter if the risk-return profile is even marginally more attractive.

That reduces fiduciary duty to a mathematical calculation that obliges trustees to chase the best return and ignore all other considerations, rather than enabling a more common-sense approach, using their discretion to determine how their capital can best be put to work for the benefit of pension savers. Given the choice, many pension savers might well want to see their savings invested in British industry or green infrastructure but, under conventional interpretations of the law, their views are irrelevant. Fiduciary duty, which exists to protect savers, risks becoming a missing link when it comes to translating our savings into productive investment activity.

This is emphatically not about hijacking pension funds’ capital to serve government ends; that could be a dangerous road to go down. It is all about allowing them the discretion to take a broad and enlightened view of what is in the beneficiaries’ interests, rather than prescribing an approach that might not serve savers in the long run. Let us not forget that it was today’s interpretation of the law that saw pension funds pile into triple-A-rated shares in banks whose risky activities ultimately decimated pension fund value. If funds had been encouraged to think about the sustainability of those returns, rather than just the share price, their beneficiaries might have been better served in the long-run.

That brings me to the third area in which policy makers ignore debates about fiduciary duty at their peril—auto-enrolment. The Pensions Regulator estimates that between 5 million and 8 million people will be newly saving, or saving more, as a result of the 2012 reforms. Many of those people will be low-paid workers and there is a huge responsibility on the Government to ensure that their savings are responsibly stewarded and deliver a decent retirement income. This means ensuring that fiduciary standards of care can be applied across the pensions market.

In Committee on the Pensions Bill, the Minister rightly noted the importance of taking a “holistic approach” and not creating “unevenness” by putting

“conditions that are not imposed on other investment vehicles on pension schemes”.––[Official Report, Pensions Public Bill Committee, 14 July 2011; c. 330.]

However, there is already unevenness between trust-based pension schemes and contract-based pension arrangements, as the latter are not subject to fiduciary duties and the governance requirements that go with them. The average saver may struggle to see the difference between those two types of arrangements, but the legal niceties mean that savers are subject to completely different legal protections depending on the type of scheme their employer chooses. Last year the Minister’s Department consulted on “regulatory differences” between trust and contract-based pension arrangements and I hope he

20 Jan 2012 : Column 1042

will look at this issue of governance because it is the single biggest regulatory difference and carries the biggest danger of regulatory arbitrage.

A struggling employer could be forgiven for wondering why they would want to set up a trust-based scheme with all the governance implications that would entail when they could simply choose an off-the-shelf product from an insurance firm. However, there are obvious reasons for thinking that such a decision might not serve the best interests of their employees. This is not merely a theoretical objection. I understand that FairPensions is due shortly to publish research showing that the absence of clear obligations does indeed create a “governance gap”. Can the Minister indicate whether his Department is looking into this issue and, if so, what might be done to ensure that a level playing field for all pension savers can be established?

The overall point is that the misapplication of fiduciary duty is clearly a significant challenge to the Government’s vision for a strong, responsible economy and a generation with a savings culture. Conversely, a renewed understanding of fiduciary duty offers an exciting opportunity to reshape our economy for the better. The FairPensions report recommends there should be statutory clarification of fiduciary duties along the lines of directors’ duties under the Companies Act 2006 to make it clear that pension funds can consider a range of factors beyond quarterly returns such as the impact of their investments on the wider economy, environmental and social issues and their members’ ethical views. It also recommends that the Department for Work and Pensions should produce guidance for pension fund trustees on the interpretation of their fiduciary duties.

When those recommendations were debated through a probing amendment to the Pensions Bill, the Minister helpfully put on record his view that

“it is not the duty of trustees simply to maximise short-term returns.”––[Official Report, Pensions Public Bill Committee, 14 July 2011; c. 329.]

In other words, the measures proposed by FairPensions that I have talked about would amount to clarification rather than a radical departure from existing legal principles in terms of trustees’ duties. This might prompt some to ask whether statutory definition is really needed if the underlying legal principles are sound.

Some pension funds already take an enlightened approach to their fiduciary responsibilities. The National Employment Savings Trust —NEST—is emerging as a beacon of best practice when it comes to responsible investment, viewing it as part of its responsibility to undertake shareholder engagement and to integrate environmental and social issues into its investment analysis. Similarly, the Strathclyde pension fund offers an excellent example of how pension funds can make investments that add genuine, sustainable economic value for their members. It recently announced a £100 million new opportunities fund to invest in job creation in Glasgow with the proviso that it will invest only in businesses that pay the living wage. However, those examples are very much the exception rather than the rule. The conventional interpretation of the law is highly conservative, and this is reflected in the legal advice received by the vast majority of pension funds. It is difficult in practice to see how this problem with the interpretation of the law can be overcome other than with an explicit clarification of the law.

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It is also worth noting that even pension funds that take an enlightened view of their fiduciary duties still appear to believe that the law restricts their room for manoeuvre in this area. For instance, one investment officer recalls asking for legal advice on whether, when voting on a hostile takeover bid, they could consider the fact that some of their beneficiaries might lose their jobs. The answer was no; they could consider only the price that they would be paid for selling their shares. In other words, far from being a counterweight to predatory activities, even the most enlightened pension fund may feel legally obliged to be complicit in these predatory activities. For all these reasons, express clarification does seem to be necessary.

To be clear, this is not a question of diluting the fiduciary duty to seek the best outcome for beneficiaries. Nothing in these proposals would change the fundamental principle that fiduciaries must act wholly in the best interests of their beneficiaries. Rather, it is about making fiduciary duty work better in today’s complex financial markets. Indeed, we must seriously ask whether fiduciary duty as currently understood is doing its job properly.

From 2002 to 2007, pension fund payments to intermediaries rose by some 50%, while returns collapsed to an average of 1.1% per year. If the main purpose of fiduciary duties is to make sure that savers come first and that agents do not profit at their expense, these figures suggest that something is badly wrong. It is not a question of imposing new regulatory burdens on pension funds, but rather the opposite: clearing away perceived legal barriers and restoring common sense to the law.

FairPensions’ proposals are aimed at creating an enabling environment, freeing trustees from the fear that they may face legal liability if they depart from received wisdom about how they must invest. This is true of both the recommendation for statutory clarification, and the recommendation for DWP guidance.

In relation to guidance, I tentatively suggest that the Charity Commission’s recent update of its investment guidance for charitable trustees might prove a useful departure point. It has helped to clarify that fiduciary duty is not a set of handcuffs that prevent trustees from considering anything but financial return. In particular, it has sought to give comfort by stating that

“if trustees have considered the relevant issues, taken advice where appropriate and reached a reasonable decision, they are unlikely to be criticised for their decisions or adopting a particular investment policy.”

I understand that the Minister’s officials have been engaging with FairPensions since the publication of their report about the possibility of guidance, and I wonder whether the Minister might update the House on any progress that his Department has made on this recommendation.

Of course, I understand that the Government might wish to wait for the results of the Kay review of UK equity markets before making firm commitments. I understand that fiduciary duty forms part of Professor Kay’s remit, and that it has been discussed extensively during his first phase of consultation. If Professor Kay does make recommendations on this issue, the Government will clearly need to consider those alongside the recommendations already made in the FairPensions report.

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Overall, therefore, it would be helpful if the Minister gave some general indication of whether there is enthusiasm in Government for reform of fiduciary duty, and whether, if it proves to be consistent with the findings of Professor Kay’s inquiry, he will work with colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to take forward this agenda.