10.3 pm
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): I intend to make only a short speech, concentrating on fuel prices. Plaid Cymru has been consistent in calling for a fuel duty regulator to prevent unexpected spikes in prices that cost users at the pump and are then pocketed by the Treasury.
Figures for November 2011 from the Office for National Statistics showed that the poorest 20% of households spend twice as much of their disposable income—nearly 4%—on petrol duty as the richest 20%, who pay less than 2%. We already know that rural families spend hundreds of pounds more on petrol than urban families, so constituents in rural Wales, where there are lower incomes, are being hit by a double whammy.
Since 2005, Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National party have called for a fuel duty regulator, through which an advance estimate of UK tax returns would be made. If prices rose faster than expected, a price cap would be introduced, so there would be no windfall tax for the Government. In 2005 and 2008, Labour voted against our amendments, while the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats abstained. In 2011, it was the other way round. At least this place is consistent, no matter who is in government. The Federation of Small Businesses has published proposals for a stability mechanism in the last few weeks; the Treasury should at least look at it.
Mr Russell Brown: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned dates when proposals were put forward. There was one year, 2006, I think—it may have been 2007—when no proposal came from anyone for a fuel duty regulator. Why was that?
Jonathan Edwards: I have admitted that we proposed amendments in 2005, 2008 and 2011. The hon. Gentleman is right that we did not do it every year, but every time we made the proposal, the voting record of each of the Unionist parties has been consistent.
The 1p off fuel duty announced last year was not a regulator in the way that the Treasury suggested, and the 3p increase in August is most certainly not either. In the continuing poor economic circumstances, I would rather the proposed fuel duty rise in August was cancelled, so that businesses did not have to face that extra cost in these tough times. Families could use that money for their own benefit; that would help them and the wider economy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) said, that would be one way of removing a serious drag on economic recovery.
I hardly need explain that my party and I are in favour of maintaining the 50p tax rate for those who earn more than £3,000 a week. Indeed, unlike the overwhelming majority of the official Opposition—there are two honourable exceptions—I put my disagreement with the policy on record in the vote on 26 March. It cannot be right for the Government to offer a tax cut to those who earn the most while announcing a £10 billion cut to the welfare budget. Clearly, we are not all in this together.
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Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con) rose —
Jonathan Edwards: I will not give way; I am sure that the Front Benchers want to get on with their summing up.
My party and I do not support the freezing or scrapping of age-related thresholds—the so-called granny tax—or the introduction of means-tested child support benefits, whether we have a cliff-edge or a taper. The point of universal child benefit is that everybody with a child receives the benefit, irrespective of their income, because it costs additional money to raise a child.
Schedule 23 of the Bill allows Northern Ireland the right to vary air passenger duty on long-haul flights, but does not provide the same for Wales and Scotland. That appears to be an ad hoc arrangement. As my party has noted consistently, what is good for one part of the British state is good for other parts. For that reason, I have tabled an amendment to the schedule that will give Wales the same powers as Northern Ireland. I look forward to debating the issue on Wednesday—and to having the support of the official Opposition, in view of the position taken by the leader of the Labour party in the Assembly.
The Budget continues the UK’s inequalities and the transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. We cannot accept a Budget that offers no prospect of growth, and a Finance Bill that reinforces inequality.
10.8 pm
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What a shambles! What a catastrophe! I refer not to this debate, but to the career prospects of the Chancellor. He went into the Budget as the man destined, in his eyes and others’, to be the next leader of the Conservative party, and he departs from it with a shambles around him.
I thought a bit of sympathy would be in order and I wanted to demonstrate to the Chancellor the impact of his Budget, so the week before Easter, I offered him the opportunity to visit a caravan in Chapel St Leonards. I was prepared to bring in some cheap lagers—the type that I know he likes—from the supermarket, and to cook him one of his favourites: the sausage sandwich. There has been a lot of concentration on the pasty, but the humble sausage sandwich, never before taxed in this country, is now to attract VAT when provided at outlets across the country. The Minister is shaking his head—he does not know the proposals in the Budget. The sausage sandwich cooked hot by the bakers across the country and cooling down below the ambient temperature is VAT-able under the Government’s proposals.
John Mann: I awaited the Chancellor’s response to my offer. Was it the brown sauce, was it the red sauce or was it no sauce at all? That was taxed with VAT at the last Budget. [Hon. Members: “Give way!”] The Chancellor had the opportunity. The caravans in Lincolnshire that people rely on for their English holidays are to be taxed as well, for the first time. The Chancellor chose not to respond.
Mr Ward: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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John Mann: I suspect that the reason was that he had not worked out the cost of fuel since he has been Chancellor—the cost of filling up his own vehicle, like the rest of the country, rather than having a chauffeur-driven car taking him around. This is the point of the Budget. The point of any Budget is that it is about—[Hon. Members: “Give way!”] There seem to be a few appendixes grumbling on the Government Benches. I recommend that hon. Members get those fixed before the next spending review, because the cuts that are coming to the health service and to local government have hardly begun. They are coming this year, and the Budget was the Chancellor’s opportunity to alleviate the situation with growth. According to him, growth was 2.5% last year, came down to 0.7% and this week came down further to 0.4%. We cannot grow our way out of a recession with growth figures like that.
That is the bit of economics that I could have explained to the Chancellor if he had chosen to come and use my bucket and spade and carry on digging. All that lot know that he is no longer fit to be leader of their party. Although they understand why, they are reluctant to say so. A Budget is about values. I do not care about the Chancellor’s background, where he comes from, what he eats or what car he has, but it is crucial that he understands, and he and his mate the Prime Minister do not get it. They are not in touch with the British people. That is what is fundamentally wrong with the Budget.
The leadership of the Government and of the Conservative party is out of touch with the British people, and that is undermining their confidence in the Chancellor. That is why this Budget has been such a catastrophe for him—picking on those with children, picking on pensioners, and failing to grow the economy. When the Chancellor took office, petrol was 119p a litre. He has already increased tax on petrol more than any other Chancellor in British history, and has seen the largest increase in petrol prices of any Chancellor in British history, and he has been in office only two years. There is more to come on tax. On top of that, there is doubtless more to come on prices. How is the normal, average British family struggling in this recession, trying to make ends meet, wanting to use their car—how are they to get on when they have a Prime Minister and a Chancellor who do not understand the lives of the British people? That is their problem, and that is the damage that this Budget does to our people.
10.14 pm
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): What a pleasure it is to follow that barnstorming speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), which is one of many powerful speeches that we have heard from Opposition Members. There have also been some interesting speeches from Government Members, which I will come to in a moment.
People used to say that Budgets from Tory Chancellors, and Tory Chancellors themselves, were cruel but competent. After this Budget, they do not say that any longer. Opposition Members do not say it and nor do Government Members. We have heard quite a bit of criticism of the Budget, but little praise for it. Over the past few weeks, as the chicanery at the heart of the Chancellor’s Budget has been exposed, line by line, clause by clause, in the newspapers and in this House, the scales have fallen from the eyes of people across this country, and especially
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from the eyes of the people who were kidded into voting Conservative at the last election; from the eyes of the people who thought that the Chancellor was an astute political strategist and a smart steward for the economy; from the eyes of the people who thought that the NHS was safe in the hands of the Conservatives; from the eyes of the people who bought the balderdash about the big society; and from the eyes of voters in my constituency and constituencies like it across the country who heard that, apparently, we were all in it together.
That myth has been wholly debunked over the past couple of weeks, and in the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), my hon. Friends the Members for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown), for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and, of course, my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw, we have heard it exposed once more today. They have exposed the black hole at the heart of the Bill where there ought to be measures for growth. The price for that black hole will be paid for by working people across this country. They have exposed the ludicrous, unthought-through, ill-judged measures, whether on pasties or caravans, that have been rightly and roundly mocked in the press.
Government Members have also made significant and challenging speeches. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), with his characteristic candour, pointed out the lack of growth measures in the Bill and bemoaned the fact that the Chancellor has not done more to deliver growth and to stop the economy flatlining. The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) exposed the perversity at the heart of the changes in clause 8, which relate to child benefit. The hon. Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) gave a particularly good dissection of the madness of the pasty tax and the caravan tax. Those Government Members know that they no longer have a Chancellor whom they can trust to run the economy or to take charge of their party in the future, because in this Budget he presided over a slow-motion car crash.
With the tax on pasties, grannygate, the conservatory tax, VAT on caravans and the charity charge, this is not a Budget to boost growth or a Budget for any particular sector of our economy, except for the headline writers. They are the ones who have been waving their Order Papers and who continue to celebrate this Budget—the gift that keeps on giving.
Only this morning, we heard the Exchequer Secretary trying to justify the proposed changes on charitable giving and the 25% cap on tax relief. He did so by revealing that a handful of people in this country who earn more than £1 million and more than £10 million succeed in dodging paying their tax. There is no news in that. One would have thought that a competent Government who understood what they were doing would have realised that the flipside of that argument was to reveal that more than 75% of higher rate taxpayers—those paying 40% and 50%—do pay all of their taxes.
Members do not need to believe my words about that, or even examine the Treasury’s own analysis that reveals it. They simply need to read what the BBC’s
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economics editor Robert Peston said today. He pointed out that more than 73% of people earning more than £250,000 had been paying the 40p and 50p rates. Even among people earning between £5 million and £10 million, 70% or 80% paid the full rate. What does that mean? According to the economics editor of the BBC, it
“implies that many tens of thousands of people were (and are) paying the 50% tax rate, and were unable to dodge it. To state the bloomin’ obvious, all of those people were given a very lovely tax cut in the budget.”
It must surely have occurred to a competent Chancellor that he would be exposed by such analysis.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Owen Smith: I will in a moment, because the hon. Gentleman has some interesting perspectives on the value of the 50p rate.
One would have thought that a competent Chancellor, or perhaps some of his Ministers, would have spotted that if such data were put into the public domain, some of us might realise not only that the 50p rate garnered £1 billion in the last year, as has now been confirmed, but that it was going to bring us £3 billion to £4 billion a year steadily, not the £100 million figure that the Government are suggesting using smoke and mirrors.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: Even though the economics editor of the BBC says it, it does not necessarily mean it is so. The hon. Gentleman does not know what income people would have been able to draw but decided not to because it would be liable to the 50p rate. People with large incomes can decide not to take them. All that is known is that they paid the right rate on the income that they took.
Owen Smith: All that we know is what is written on page 52 of the review by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs of the 50p rate, in table A2. It states in black and white that £3 billion a year will be forgone as a result of the changes, not the £100 million figure that is arrived at with smoke and mirrors about the taxable income elasticity calculation that Treasury Ministers signed off. What does the Office for Budget Responsibility say about that? As the hon. Gentleman said, it says that there is huge uncertainty about that calculation. We contend that we should rely on the absolute numbers, as revealed this morning—that £1 billion was raised from the 50p rate last year, not the nonsense £100 million figure.
That situation reveals the priorities of the Government, who are taking £3 billion from pensioners. On average, £83 is being taken from them, and £285 is being taken from those turning 65 this year, to pay for a tax cut of an average of £40,000 for 14,000 millionaires. That is the Government’s priority. We cannot pretend to understand it, but it is unfortunately the priority that working people will pay for.
Lorely Burt: The hon. Gentleman talks about the 50p tax rate, which his party’s Government introduced. I cannot remember how many days before the general election at which the coalition Government came into office that that happened—was it 48 days? May I invite him to speculate as to why the former Prime Minister had 13 years in government but brought in the 50p tax rate only such a short time before his Government left office?
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Owen Smith: Perhaps the hon. Lady could remind us whether it was 48 days before the election, or just before that, when her party talked about the VAT bombshell that it would stop when it came into government. Was it 48 days? I am not sure. We have made the argument about why we introduced the 50p rate, and we do not intend to make it once more.
The reality is that the Government are entirely out of touch. Both Government parties—the one down there below the Gangway and the one up here opposite me —are completely out of touch with the reality of working people in this country. [Interruption.] The Chief Secretary tells me from a sedentary position to answer the question. I have answered it, and I will answer it again on Wednesday when we debate the 50p rate. It was introduced in a period of recession to ensure that the people with the broadest shoulders paid the most. We would have stuck by that decision and not, in the midst of a continuing period of austerity, asked the most vulnerable to pay. That is a desperately bad choice.
If there was ever any doubt that the Government were out of touch, hon. Members should have come in earlier and listened to the Chief Secretary, a Liberal Democrat, parrot the Government line on working family tax credits that all people need to do is go out there and earn a little bit more by working an extra eight hours a week. Let me put him and the Chancellor, who is sitting next to him, in touch with the reality for working people in this country. In my constituency of Pontypridd, Mr Chancellor, a new supermarket is opening. It will create 200 jobs. A fortnight ago, 2,500 people queued 600 yards down the main road and across a bus station to try to secure jobs in a supermarket. Those people need a Chancellor who will deliver growth and jobs. They need a Government who give a damn about working people. That is why we needed a Budget for growth. We did not get it and that is why the Opposition will vote against this bad Budget.
10.26 pm
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): We have had a wide-ranging debate, and I thank the 20 Back Benchers who contributed. Many of the speeches touched on the three great challenges that we face in our economy: how to reduce the deficit, how to ensure that we do it fairly, and how to ensure that the UK can be competitive and grow strongly. However, the first point was tackled exclusively by Government Members. Labour Members still show no recognition of the previous Government’s disastrous legacy or the fact that it is not credible to advocate that the way to reduce borrowing is to borrow yet more. A structural deficit of the size we faced meant that difficult measures on spending cuts and tax rises were necessary, but Labour Members continue to oppose almost every effective measure to reduce the deficit. That is why the country continues not to trust the Labour party on the economy.
The Bill is consistent with our determination to return our public finances to a position of respectability.
Ian Lucas: If the Government believe that it is not right to give tax concessions, why have they given skiers in Aviemore in the Chief Secretary’s constituency a discount on VAT, which the Exchequer Secretary says that the country can ill afford?
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Mr Gauke: The provision on cable cars applies not only in Aviemore, but in, for example, the Isle of Wight and London. I confess that it does not apply in South West Hertfordshire or in Wrexham, but it applies in places around the country. It is worth pointing out that, by and large, public transport is exempt from VAT, and the provision brings cable cars into line with that.
Let me consider fairness. We inherited a personal allowance of £6,475, and the Bill increases that to £8,105. Next year, there will be a further increase of £1,100. The Government are taking 2 million people out of income tax, providing a tax cut for 24 million people and are well on course to meeting our target of a personal allowance of £10,000.
Let me turn now to the controversial issue of age-related allowances. We must look at the changes in the context of the £275 increase in the state pension. Labour Members tend to say, “That is simply because of inflation,” but let me remind the House that the plans we inherited from the previous Labour Government were for the state pension to increase in line with average earnings. That would have meant an increase of £127 less than our increase, so the Government have increased it more than Labour would have done.
Owen Smith: Will the Exchequer Secretary confirm—we asked one of his colleagues to confirm this earlier—that, on average, families in Britain, taking into account all the changes, will be £511 worse off, as suggested by the Institute for Fiscal Studies?
Mr Gauke: We inherited the biggest deficit in our history and have taken measures—through both spending and taxes—to reduce it. The fact is that the measures we have taken on the personal allowance will result in, for example, a tax cut of £170 a year for every basic rate taxpayer in the country.
Owen Smith: Will the Minister give way?
Mr Gauke: No. I am going to make more progress.
Returning to the age-related allowance, it will remain the case that those receiving employment income above the retirement age will not pay national insurance contributions. We have heard nothing this evening about why the Opposition believe as a matter of principle that those under the age of 65 should have a lower personal allowance than those over the age of 65. Given that the personal allowance has increased so substantially, it is reasonable and sensible to simplify the tax system and have one generous personal allowance, regardless of age.
We have taken decisions to remove anomalies in the VAT system, but VAT is a broad-based tax and it is neither fair nor economically justifiable for similar or identical products to be treated in different ways on the basis of arbitrary distinctions. The same approach should apply to mobile caravans as to static, non-residential caravans, and to a hot pie served in a fish and shop and one served in a bakery.
Labour Members argue that removing those anomalies will hit living standards, but may I put those measures in context? Next year, basic rate taxpayers will get a £170 income tax cut. That will be sufficient to pay VAT on 1,300 Greggs hot sausage rolls. I confess that those
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consuming more than 1,300 Greggs hot sausage rolls—that is 26 a week—will lose under the Budget, but I suspect that that is the least of their worries.
We are taking a tough decision on child benefit, but it is right that those earning £20,000 or £30,000 should not pay taxes to fund child benefit for the families of those who earn substantially more. Each of those policies has produced opposition, and whenever there is opposition to a difficult decision, along comes the Labour party. It opposes each and every measure, however logical or fair it may be. Labour agrees with every interest group that comes along and says, “Don’t tax us,” or “Keep spending on this.” The Labour party is the party that likes to say yes, just as it did in government. Is it any wonder that it left the public finances in such a mess?
There is one tax increase that Labour has supported: the increase in the additional rate of income tax to 50p, which the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) spent so much time on. What is the effect of the 50p rate? We have the assessment of HMRC. What has the 50p rate achieved? More people work overseas; total income has fallen by between £2.9 billion and £4.4 billion; and GDP is between 0.2% and 0.3% lower. All of that is from the HMRC assessment.
Owen Smith: Will the Exchequer Secretary confirm that the HMRC report on the 50p rate stated on no fewer than three separate occasions that the calculation was highly uncertain and that table A2, which contains absolute numbers, shows that the loss will be £3 billion rising to £4 billion over the spending period?
Mr Gauke: Both HMRC and the OBR have made a central estimate, and that is what we have used. I am sorry it does not fit into Labour’s ideology, but the reality is that HMRC’s assessment is that the 50p rate raised less than half the expected amount and might even have cost the Exchequer. The OBR’s assessment is that it is a reasonable and central estimate.
It takes a special kind of incompetence to produce a policy that sends a terrible signal to our competitors, drives higher earners out of the country, damages GDP and fails to raise revenue. There are better ways of raising revenue from the wealthy—for instance, by addressing SDLT avoidance, raising the SDLT rate on properties worth more than £2 million and capping reliefs to ensure that the wealthy cannot opt out of income tax. Both sides of the House want to raise more money from wealthy people. The reality is that we are better at doing it.
We will get more money out of the rich as a proportion of income tax each and every year than the previous Government managed in 13 years in any year. We will not only end our having the least competitive higher rate of income tax in the G20 but provide for a corporate tax regime that becomes increasingly competitive—the main rate will fall to 22% in 2014. We are updating our controlled foreign companies regime, ensuring that companies choose to locate here, not move away. We are implementing the patent box, which is already resulting in additional investment in the UK, as announced by GlaxoSmithKline and AstraZeneca, and we have more generous arrangements for enterprise investment schemes and venture capital trusts, and a new enterprise investment scheme.
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The Bill is good for growth. It encourages investment. It attracts entrepreneurs. It tackles avoidance. It helps those on low incomes. It asks the better-off to pay more. And it provides for a significant restructuring of our tax code. It takes difficult steps but delivers real change. Those changes will improve the tax system and the economy as a whole. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The House divided:
Ayes 319, Noes 245.
[10.37 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Graham, Richard
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr Philip Dunne and
Mark Hunter
NOES
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McCrea, Dr William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Simpson, David
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Yvonne Fovargue and
Susan Elan Jones
Question accordingly agreed to.
16 Apr 2012 : Column 133
16 Apr 2012 : Column 134
16 Apr 2012 : Column 135
16 Apr 2012 : Column 136
FINANCE (No. 4) BILL (PROGRAMME)
Motion made, and Question put for thwith (Standing Order No. 83A ),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Finance (No. 4) Bill:
Committal
1. The following shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House—
(a) Clauses 1, 4, 8, 189 and 209;
(b) Schedules 1, 23 and 33;
(c) any new Clauses and any new Schedules, first appearing on the Order Paper not later than Tuesday 17 April 2012 and relating to value added tax.
2. The remainder of the Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Committee
3.–(1) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House shall be completed in two days.
(2) Those proceedings shall be taken on each of those days as shown in the first column of the following table and in the order so shown.
(3) Each part of the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the time specified in relation to it in the second column of the Table.
(4) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House.
16 Apr 2012 : Column 137
|
Three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Bill. |
|
4.–(1) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 26 June 2012.
(2) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
5. When the provisions of the Bill considered, respectively, by the Committee of the whole House and by the Public Bill Committee have been reported to the House, the Bill shall be proceeded with as if it had been reported as a whole to the House from the Public Bill Committee.
Consideration and Third Reading
6. Proceedings on Consideration and on Third Reading shall be completed in two days.
7. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.—(Angela Watkinson .)
Business without Debate
deferred divisions
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 41A( 3 )),
That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Carry Over Motion in the name of Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to the Finance (No. 4) Bill.—(Angela Watkinson .)
Finance (No. 4) Bill (carry over)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 80A(1)(a)),
That if, at the conclusion of this Session of Parliament, proceedings on the Finance (No. 4) Bill have not been completed, they shall be resumed in the next Session.—( Angela Watkinson .)
The House divided:
Ayes 319, Noes 241.
[10.53 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Graham, Richard
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Greg Hands and
Mark Hunter
NOES
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McCrea, Dr William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Simpson, David
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Yvonne Fovargue and
Susan Elan Jones
Question accordingly agreed to.
16 Apr 2012 : Column 138
16 Apr 2012 : Column 139
16 Apr 2012 : Column 140
16 Apr 2012 : Column 141
E-tabling of written questions
That this House approves the recommendations relating to written parliamentary questions contained in paragraphs 7 and 8 of the Eighth Report of the Procedure Committee, on E-tabling of parliamentary questions for written answer, HC 1823.—(Angela Watkinson.)
16 Apr 2012 : Column 142
Midland Main Line
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.)
11.7 pm
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing time for this debate. The issue of the upgrade and electrification of the midland main line has rumbled on for a number of years, and I am delighted to have an opportunity to raise it with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State in a little more detail than is usually possible in departmental questions. The subject is particularly topical, given that the Prime Minister travelled on an East Midlands train via the midland main line up to the east midlands today.
As can be seen from the number of MPs from both sides of the House who are still here at this late hour, although it is perhaps not as late as some of us had anticipated, and as is demonstrated by those such as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) who cannot be here tonight but who have sent messages of support, this subject is of interest to MPs across the midlands. The Minister will be aware of the letter from Members representing 20 seats in the midlands that I recently sent her, outlining our support for the upgrade and electrification of the midland main line. I am sure that I speak for a number of hon. Members when I say that we all know this train line extremely well.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I am delighted that the hon. Lady has secured this debate, as many hon. Members feel strongly about this subject. Does she agree that this is about not only cutting journey times, but saving money in the running of the railway each year? I believe that the relevant figure is about £60 million.
Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for his intervention. He rightly says that there are many benefits to this—I shall set out five key ones later in my speech—and that cutting the running costs of the railway on an annual basis is one of the main benefits that the upgrade and electrification would bring.
Sir Alan Meale (Mansfield) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. This issue is not just about saving money, however, but about unfairness. More than £12 billion is being invested in the railways and only £200 million in the midland main line. Is that one of her findings?
Nicky Morgan: It is indeed. I am not sure how long the hon. Gentleman has been a Member of the House—I suspect that he has been a Member longer than I have—but he is absolutely right. The midlands are sometimes too good at standing back and letting other regions get investment, which is why it is time for the midland main line to get the investment it so badly needs.
I know that the debate is also being watched outside the House by a good number of supporters of the upgrade works and electrification. I am grateful to all those who have been so generous with their thoughts and suggestions in helping me to prepare for the debate.
16 Apr 2012 : Column 143
In particular, I want to thank East Midlands Councils, the Association of Train Operating Companies, Network Rail, the CBI in the east midlands, LANRAC—the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire rail action committee—the Derby and Derbyshire Rail Forum and the Rail Freight Group. Indeed, as Jim Bamford of Nottinghamshire county council has said to me:
“I think it is a real strength of the campaign that all the key players—Network Rail, East Midland Trains, and a wide range of local stakeholders—have such a united view on the need for a complementary package of upgrade works followed by electrification”.
Although I realise that my right hon. Friend the Minister is unable to announce tonight that the midland main line is to receive the investment we all hope for, I hope that she will at least be left in no doubt about the strength of support both inside and outside the Chamber for the upgrade and electrification works.
In the time available, I thought it would be most helpful if I set out briefly what we as midlands MPs are all looking for and why.
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I feel bound to point out that some of us are northerners, too. The line goes a little further.
Nicky Morgan: I take the hon. Lady’s point. She is absolutely right and I stand corrected.
The initial industry plan for England and Wales sets out how the rail industry can deliver a more efficient and better value railway and how our railways can play a key role in driving sustainable economic growth. The plan examines the key choices and options facing funders in specifying the future outputs of the railway and the level of funding required. Those choices will inform the development of the Government’s high-level output specification and statement of funds available for control period 5, which runs from 2014 to 2019. The spending statement is due to published in July 2012.
The initial industry plan identifies providing additional capacity on long distance services operating on the midland main line as a key investment choice. The electrification network route utilisation strategy identified the midland main line as a route for which there was likely to be a strong business case for extending the electrification of the line to the north as far as Sheffield.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate and on taking great care to talk about the upgrade and electrification of the line. Does she agree that there has been a problem with the debate in that it often uses the shorthand of electrification when upgrading the line is critical to reducing journey times and is also the smaller part of the cost package?
Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those points and he is absolutely right. That was one thing that I discovered in researching my speech. When I applied for the debate, the title covered only electrification but in the course of preparing for it I understood that the two go hand in hand. We must have the upgrade works first in order to have electrification. The work must be done that way around and I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that so clear.
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As I have said, the route utilisation strategy identified the midland main line as a route for which there was likely to be a strong business case for extending the electrification of the line to the north as far as Sheffield. The decision to proceed with High Speed 2 has not affected that business case. What are we looking for, therefore? First, the upgrade works, which comprise major re-signalling schemes around Derby and Leicester, a number of line speed improvements—my right hon. Friend the Minister might be aware, as I was not, that 125-mph trains have never yet travelled at 125 mph on the bit of the midland main line that we are debating because the track was not improved at the time they were launched to allow them to do so—and longer trains. After the upgrade works, we would like to see electrification for the Bedford to Sheffield part of the line via Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Chesterfield—as I wrote that, I thought that I was beginning to sound like one of the train announcers.
Why do I and so many others believe the midland main line’s time has come? First, there is expected to be a huge growth in passenger demand on the midland main line that has been identified in the east midlands route utilisation strategy. I can tell the House, just from my own observations, that the line continues to get busier and busier. Already 13.2 million passengers travel on the midland main line each year. That is more than double the number who travelled on the line at the time of privatisation and the number keeps growing. Network Rail estimates that by 2020 the numbers travelling from the east midlands to London will have increased by 27% and that the numbers travelling from Nottingham to Birmingham will have increased by 42%.
Secondly, these upgrade and electrification works are an essential component of establishing an integrated long distance rail network alongside High Speed 2. Those banging the drum for the midland main line have waited while the Government have assessed High Speed 2. Now that it is going ahead we believe the improvements to the midland main line must happen too.
Thirdly, the midland main line connects four of England’s largest cities and one of the fastest-growing areas in England to London and vice versa.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate and I should like to add weight to her arguments. Economically, my constituency is one of the fastest growing in the country despite the fact that not one of 2,000 railway stations is located in my constituency. My constituents already have to travel to get on to the railway line and they should not be further handicapped by journey times that are longer than they need to be. I want these improvements to the midland main line and so do my constituents.
Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour for making those points. He is absolutely right and I am going to come on to freight, which is also a very important part of the growing economy within his constituency.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab):
The hon. Lady is speaking incredibly eloquently and I am happy to support the argument she is making. If the House
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will indulge me, may I also thank the Minister for meeting me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) recently? Further to the point that the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) made, I saw some statistics recently that suggested that the conurbations that the midland main line serves are likely to grow by about 800,000 people over the next 20 years or so. There is clearly a demand for this service and it is also clear that there will be huge economic benefits. An upgrade of the midland main line would bring huge benefits to Leicester, for example, and also, I imagine, to Loughborough.
Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman. He is absolutely right; that is why the time for investment in the midland main line has definitely come.
Reducing journey times between our cities and London will help our businesses to access markets and improve the effectiveness of our labour markets. An independent report prepared for East Midlands Councils and the South Yorkshire passenger transport executive estimated that upgrading and electrifying the midland main line would generate £450 million-worth of wider economic benefits in terms of higher business productivity. This, of course, includes the creation of hundreds of jobs through construction activities and the refurbishment works on the trains as well as encouraging more businesses to relocate and invest around the midland main line corridor as journey times reduce. The main constraint on time taken to complete a journey is the speed limits that have to be put in place if the track does not allow trains to travel at their top speeds. We can all appreciate the benefits of saying to employees and customers that a journey from London to Leicester is only 60 minutes rather than well over an hour.
Fourthly, the Government are rightly focused on reducing costs, which ultimately helps us to tackle the deficit and the national debt. Electrification significantly reduces the costs of rolling stock, energy, track access and maintenance. As I have said, the latest estimates suggest that electrifying the line from Bedford to Sheffield would save up to £60 million every year in industry costs. That means that within 10 years of completion the electrification of the line between Bedford and Sheffield will have paid for itself and will continue to reduce the cost of rail to the taxpayer year on year.
Fifthly, as a letter from the Rail Freight Group to my right hon. Friend the Minister said,
“the East Midlands area is a growing hub for logistics activities, and there are a number of active proposals for rail linked distribution along the route...Such facilities are essential for rail freight growth, and also to economic prosperity and job creation in the region.”
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The hon. Lady is absolutely right about the importance of logistics to the east midlands. Chesterfield and junction 29A—Skinner’s junction as it is known colloquially in the area—plays an important part in making sure that our road network is successful, but our rail network falls behind. My constituents absolutely recognise the economic benefits of improving our logistics capacity through the electrification and upgrade of the midland main line.
Nicky Morgan:
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. He and I have often met on East Midlands Trains services so we are personal users of the midland
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main line and we know how important it is. He is absolutely right about freight and the importance of getting it off the road and on to rail. That is why we need to have the upgrade and electrification works. Network Rail has told me that it estimates that by 2020 freight usage on the line will have increased by 50%.
Electric trains are quieter and emit less carbon dioxide per vehicle mile. It is estimated that electrification of the route from Bedford to Sheffield would slash carbon emissions by up to 12,000 tonnes.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does she agree that the one disadvantage for the east midlands is that people can get to London so much faster by driving to Tamworth and taking the west coast main line, or over to Grantham or Newark to take the east coast main line? If we could get east midland main line trains up to the right speed, we could lose all those wasted car journeys too.
Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the case for getting people out of their cars and on to rail. It is not just about freight; passengers are incredibly important. It says something about the midlands. The time for investment has very much come. The midlands are a growing and important area of our economy and need this investment.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend on securing the debate. I am delighted that the Minister with us today knows so much about what is going on in Derby. This is an excellent opportunity for us again to think about investing in the area. We hope that a technology centre will come to Derby and there are other important investments, such as Bombardier, and innovative electrification arrangements for trains. They are of the moment and time is of the essence. Congratulations!
Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend. On behalf of my hon. Friend and other Derbyshire MPs, may I mention today’s front page of the Derby Telegraph? I understand the Prime Minister was presented with it. The paper made it very clear that people in Derby and Derbyshire, led by their Members of Parliament, are very much behind electrification. I congratulate all the campaigners who have so ably supported the debate this evening.
In conclusion, let me draw all the factors together. The Government are rightly focused on doing everything we can to grow our economy. Successful businesses in the midlands are critical to ensuring our nation’s economic growth. The Government have also rightly signalled their commitment to investing in our national infrastructure. Here is a project of enhancements, upgrade works and electrification that will cost a significant amount, but which will cut the cost of running the railway by up to £60 million each year. The project will be good for businesses and our regional economies in so many different ways, and the midlands has waited patiently for it for a very long time. We have the slowest speeds to and from London of any inter-city route. Nottingham and Sheffield are the last two of the eight core cities with no electrified line in place or promised.
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Transport Ministers, including my right hon. Friend, have clearly stated the Government’s commitment to electrification. I ask that she now gives the midland main line top priority as the Government decide on the spending priorities for control period 5. My constituents and I, Members on both sides of the House and many people in the midlands and the north await the July announcement with great interest.
11.22 pm
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Like others, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) on securing the debate and on an excellent speech. I welcome the strong interest shown in the debate by the presence of so many hon. Members from up and down the length of the route.
My hon. Friend put the case for electrification of the midland main line with cogency and clarity and I pay tribute to the campaign that she, so many of the groups she mentioned and so many of the Members in the Chamber have been leading on that important issue. I welcome the interest of the Derby Telegraph, a paper with which I am very familiar—for all sorts of reasons. I have received many representations from Members who are attending the debate and from other groups and colleagues. I particularly mention the representations received by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin).
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that we are seeing a complete outbreak of cross-party support for the project? She identifies Members representing cities and towns—for example, Beeston and Attenborough in my constituency—all of which will benefit if the scheme goes ahead. I do not know whether she has seen a paper written by Jim Bamford from Nottinghamshire county council—my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) referred to him. He sets out the excellent economic case for electrification and the improvement of the line not just for the good people of greater Nottingham but for those throughout the whole of the east midlands right up to south Yorkshire.
Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend is entirely correct. There is significant cross-party support, and there is a range of interesting research and evidence on the potential benefits of electrification of the midland main line, much of which I have seen directly. As I think the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) mentioned, in February, I met MPs to discuss the proposals, along with the deputy mayor of Leicester. This debate provides a welcome opportunity for the House to reflect on an important subject for the regions concerned.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab):
I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) on securing the debate. I think that the case for the electrification and upgrade of the midland main line is unanswerable, and I hope that we will hear some reassuring words from the Minister this evening. Does she
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agree that it is absolutely essential that the Government do everything in their power to ensure that the trains that run on the midland main line—and indeed on every railway line in the country—are, wherever possible, built in British factories, and preferably in the Derby factory of Bombardier?
Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman knows that I have a very high regard for the Bombardier operation in Derby, and he will appreciate that we are bound by European rules on the procurement of rolling stock.
The Government appreciate the economic benefits that investment in transport can bring in general. That is why we have given priority to investment in our rail network, even when budgets are limited by the pressing need to deal with the deficit. As well as going ahead with high-speed rail, we have embarked on a major programme of rail improvements on a scale larger than anything attempted since the Victorian era. That programme plays a significant role in two of our important priorities: promoting economic growth and cutting carbon. It is also vital that we get the cost of running the railways down, so that we can respond to concerns about fares.
Where there is a strong business case, and subject to affordability, the Government support the progressive electrification of the rail network as a way to reduce the cost of running the railways, boost the economy, increase passenger comfort, and reduce carbon. As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough, electric trains cost less in fuel and maintenance than their diesel equivalents; they are quieter; they are lighter, which saves on wear and tear to the track; and they emit less carbon dioxide. That is why the Government have already committed to an extensive programme of rail electrification, which includes the Great Western main line from London to Oxford, Newbury, Bristol and Cardiff, and lines in the north-west, including from Liverpool to Manchester and from Blackpool to Manchester. Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, your constituency is set to benefit from the changes. Subject to confirmation of the business case, the line from Manchester across the Pennines to Leeds and York is also due to be electrified.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough and others have rightly emphasised, the midland main line plays a major role in supporting the economies of the east midlands and south Yorkshire. Most inter-city services on the line are provided by modern, high-performance, diesel Meridian trains. The line also benefits from the recent investment in new stations at Corby and East Midlands Parkway, and from the £800 million transformation of St Pancras. The Government have committed to further improvements by 2014. Network Rail is due to complete a £69 million investment to deliver an eight-minute improvement in journey times for passengers between London and Sheffield. In the longer term, the economies of the east midlands and south Yorkshire will benefit from the second phase of High Speed 2, with journey times slashed and rail capacity dramatically increased.
We recognise that there is a good case, on economic and financial grounds, for further investment in the midland main line over and above what we are already committed to. The scale of what can be delivered depends on what is affordable, and on a careful and fair assessment of competing priorities elsewhere on the rail network.
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The report commissioned by East Midlands Councils and South Yorkshire passenger transport executive entitled “The Case for Upgrading and Electrifying the Midland Main Line” is very impressive. It highlights significant potential economic, environmental and financial benefits from electrification and the other upgrades to which my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough referred.
The Government recognise that the electrification of the midland main line could help spread the benefits of HS2, because it would enable through-running of services between the new high-speed network and the midland main line. This is something that we will consider as we prepare our response to the advice of HS2 Ltd on phase 2 of the project to complete the Y network to Manchester and Leeds. This potential benefit and the others mentioned today, including the important points made by my hon. Friend about freight and the potential benefits to freight from an electrified midland main line, will all be taken into account in our decisions on the forthcoming HLOS statement.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough set out, electrification of the midland main line and various other upgrades to the line are included in Network Rail’s initial industry plan for possible delivery in the period between 2014 and 2019. This document and the priorities that it sets out will play an important role in forthcoming decisions on which projects can be funded in the CP5 rail period to 2019. I welcome the decision by the rail industry to prioritise electrification of the midland main line in the IIP. The Government are currently considering how much funding will be available in total for rail investment in the five-year period up to 2019 and how it should be allocated. We will announce our decisions by July.
Although the business case for midland main line electrification does indeed look impressive, as I have acknowledged at the Dispatch Box before now, there can be no doubt that the project would be complex and challenging, and it would be expensive to deliver. Network Rail has estimated the capital cost of electrification alone to be just over £530 million, not including the other improvements mentioned in the debate. Major engineering work would be required. Just to make room for the overhead wires, more than 50 bridges would have to be rebuilt.
So, alongside midland main line electrification and upgrades, we will need to assess the case for improvements on other routes to determine which projects are given priority. The initial industry plan contains proposals for rail improvements likely to cost about £4.5 billion in total during the CP5 control period. This is on top of £5 billion for projects already committed for the period, so we will need to strike a balance and make choices. Of course we want to fund projects which promote economic growth and improve efficiency, as we believe electrification
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of the midland main line would do. We also need to ensure that the Government’s finances are not overstretched during difficult times.
Sir Alan Meale: I refer again to the point that I raised earlier—£12.2 billion was spent on the networks, but only £200 million of it went in the east midlands. That is not fair. We demand and we need the extra investment.
Mrs Villiers: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are committed to continuing investment in our rail network. We are committed to a major programme of electrification. The previous Government managed only about 15 or 20 miles of electrification in 20 years, so we are making progress on that. Although I cannot prejudge the outcome of the deliberations, I can assure my hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir Alan Meale) and everyone else attending the debate this evening that we recognise the benefits that electrifying and upgrading the midland main line would bring. We are aware of the strength of the business case. We are very much aware of the strength of the support for this important upgrade to the rail network. That is why we are working closely with Network Rail to ensure that we have the most up-to-date information to inform our decisions on the midland main line project and whether we can include it in the HLOS programme for CP5.
Meg Munn: Can the Minister tell us what role the reduction in emissions will play in the decision?
Mrs Villiers: It is important to take into account the potential environmental benefits of any project in all areas of government, and I acknowledge that electrification of the midland main line would have a positive impact in reducing carbon emissions. We will take that into account.
The hard work of my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough, many of the other MPs who are here, the local authorities, the stakeholders and the local newspapers on this issue has given momentum to the campaign to electrify and upgrade the midland main line. I congratulate them all on that. We will continue to listen with care to the views of all who promote this project when we make decisions on which rail projects can be prioritised and afforded in the next railway control period. This debate has provided more useful and valuable input into that decision-making process. I am grateful to all Members who have contributed. I will take very seriously the representations made in this debate and the numerous representations that I and the Department have received on the benefits to be gained environmentally and economically from electrifying and upgrading the midland main line.