Mr Stuart:
My right hon. Friend is right. Having secured from the Chancellor an absolute commitment that there will genuinely be consultation, I ask the Government to extend the period and allow us to make the strongest possible case. It will also allow us further to expand the coalition in the House. Ministers will be aware that there is strong feeling in the Committee today that the proposal should be reconsidered. I look for a sign that they recognise the strength of feeling in the Chamber. The proposal does not make economic
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sense; we have not one but two enterprise zones in east Yorkshire. Why? It is because of the difficulties of unemployment in our area.
We have had great news. In all the years under the Labour Government when they spent so much money, did they reduce the tolls on the Humber bridge? No, they did not, but this Government have made the right decision. They are putting in commitment. This is a Budget for growth. It is a Budget that takes people out of tax. It is a Budget that reduces corporation tax. It is a Budget that will create employment in east Yorkshire, which is why we must make sure we get all the detail right. I am grateful that the Government are consulting. I recognise that it is a sign that they see room for manoeuvre. I want them to extend the consultation period and I look forward in due course to their finding other ways of dealing with the vast deficit left behind by the incompetents who sit on the Opposition Front Bench.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo): Order. A large number of Members wish to participate in this debate, which ends in one hour. I ask Members to make shorter speeches in order to accommodate their colleagues, so that the Minister can hear all the views. Interventions from now on must be short, or I will stop the Member from speaking at length on an intervention. I hope that helps the debate.
Karl Turner: I shall speak to new clause 6. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), although I disagree with some of the points that he makes.
This was certainly not a Budget for jobs and growth. For hon. Members on the Government Benches to make that point time and again, as they do, shows me and my constituents how out of touch they are. On the subject of VAT on static caravans, I have three manufacturers based in Hull East. One of them, Willerby’s, the biggest manufacturer, has 700 staff. I said in an earlier intervention that the firm had gone from a full working week to a three-and-a-half day week. The firm tells me that it is probably ridiculous to suggest that there is a possibility of returning to a full working week if the proposed VAT is implemented on 1 October.
I want to address the question of whether there really is an anomaly. I do not think there is. I do not think people buy static caravans for the same reasons that they buy trailer caravans. A static caravan is often a second home, but if I accept that there is an anomaly, surely there should be time for a proper consultation and an opportunity for people to think about the impact on their businesses and jobs. It is the wrong time, while the economy is flatlining, to try to deal with an anomaly, if that is what it is. We need jobs and growth in this country. We do not need a savage attack on manufacturing industry.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that a Budget which increases taxes on static caravans and pasties, but cuts taxes on ski lifts tells us far more about the consumption patterns of those on the Government Front Bench than anything else? The Chancellor said he has never eaten a pasty. Has my hon. Friend found out whether the Chancellor has ever stayed in a caravan?
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Karl Turner: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point.
The Government’s impact assessment suggests that sales will drop by 30% as a result of VAT on static caravans. That would be disastrous for the static caravan manufacturing industry in Hull. I appeal to the Government to listen to the representations that have been made from both Members Opposition and Government and to think again. The measure will be disastrous for that industry.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I shall speak to new clause 5, in my name and the names of all Cornish MPs. We have a Cornish coalition moving forward to try to protect the Cornish pasty. The proposals from the Government are, I fear, unfair and unworkable and will be bad for the economy of Cornwall.
Let us consider the economic impact first. Cornwall is already an extremely disadvantaged part of the United Kingdom, being the only part that qualifies for convergence funding, yet the 86 million pasties that are produced contribute £37 million directly to the Cornish economy, and the 40 Cornish Pasty Association members turn over £150 million a year.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that the small bakeries in our town centres and villages are keeping or helping to keep those town centres and villages alive? This measure could push them beyond economic viability.
Stephen Gilbert: My hon. Friend makes an entirely relevant point. Some 2,000 people in Cornwall are employed directly in the production of the 84 million pasties a year and that 2,000 does not count the many scores of others who work in bakeries on the high streets of many towns across Cornwall.
We know from YouGov research that 32% of people said that they would stop buying pasties altogether if the VAT extension went forward. Let us assume that one in three is too high a number and that there is a 20% fall in sales. What will that mean? The Cornish pasty producers will lose £30 million a year, £7.5 million will be lost in secondary spend in the Cornish economy and 400 jobs will be lost directly in the industry.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we also have a pasty industry in Devon. He is talking about job losses and I have already come across workers for pasty companies in Cornwall who live in Plymouth and who are already on a three-day week. It is already having an impact and it will get much worse.
Stephen Gilbert: The hon. Lady makes an accurate point. Pasty producers tell me that they are already feeling the squeeze. They are feeling the same pressures as us all through fuel costs and so on. They simply do not feel that they can reduce the net price and therefore absorb that extra 20% so there are serious concerns that it will add problems to an already damaged industry.
The Government’s change is supposed to be about simplification and replacing the subjective test of the purpose of selling the pasty under the current VAT rules with a much simpler test, but in fact we are only replacing one set of anomalies with another. VAT will
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be charged if the pasty is bought hot but not if it is bought cold. Will we have an army of HMRC inspectors going around with their standard issue thermometers and testing pasties?
Nadhim Zahawi: In my constituency, the Subway franchisee sells cold sandwiches without VAT and must charge VAT when the sandwiches are heated. Spudulike has to charge VAT. The idea that when one serves hot food one has to charge VAT—even in the chip shop in Stratford—is only about levelling the playing field—
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo): Order. That is not brief enough and interventions should ask a question.
Stephen Gilbert: I understand the point that my hon. Friend is trying to make, but there is a big difference between eating cold fish and chips, which would not be very pleasant, and eating a cold pasty, which, when it is a good pasty, can be enjoyable. My hon. Friend will also see in the amendment paper that I have not tried to oppose any simplification in this area. I have tried to be helpful to the Government by suggesting that no VAT should be charged on products when no effort is made to keep the product warm. By phrasing it in that way, my intention was to encourage the Government to think again about whether we can achieve the aim of hitting the sale of rotisserie chickens while keeping an exemption for baked products. Perhaps when he sums up, the Minister will be able to tell me that he has considered my suggestion and that there are some good reasons why he would agree with me, but I doubt it.
This unfair tax unfortunately plays to the perception that some Government Members do not understand what day-to-day life is like for millions of people in our country. It plays to the perception that an attack is being made on quite an iconic Cornish dish. This is not just about the Cornish pasty, but about the meat and potato pie of my hon. Friends in the north and, as we heard from the Opposition spokesperson, the Scottish bridie. I simply think that the Government do not understand that millions of people eat those every day as part of their routine. We need to reconsider whether we have the balance right.
When my right hon. Friend the Chancellor visited Cornwall in 2008, he said:
“Cornwall is having a tough time with the economy and businesses are finding it hard. There are things that the Conservatives can do.”
I am desperately proud to be part of a coalition Government who have introduced a local enterprise partnership in Cornwall, produced an enterprise zone in Newquay, taken 19,000 Cornish people out of income tax, delivered a council tax freeze and made sure that Cornwall is the first part of the country to have access along its entire length to superfast broadband, but, when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor says that there are things that the Conservatives can do, I ask, please, that this is one thing that the coalition Government do not do. I shall request a separate Division on new clause 5.
7 pm
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I rise to support new clause 7 in my name and those of several other right hon. and hon. Members.
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The upkeep of our beautiful and historic buildings is vital to the preservation of Britain’s unique cultural heritage, and it is often done, particularly in the case of churches, thanks to tireless fundraising by volunteers. Raising VAT from 0% to 20% on alterations to our churches and other historic buildings, at the same time as the Government are making fundraising harder with their cap on philanthropy, represents a double whammy to our heritage sector and a dreadful blow to our historic churches—and cathedrals, in particular.
Our great churches and cathedrals are not just historic piles of bricks and mortar or even just places of worship for the few. They are among our most important tourist attractions, bringing thousands of overseas visitors to Britain every year, and well-run major churches and cathedrals, such as the stunning cathedral in Exeter, open their doors constantly to the local community and provide a vital public service. They are our greatest physical symbol of the big society.
I can think of countless occasions in Exeter—for example, a service of thanks for the work of the Royal Marines in Afghanistan, or a funeral for a local teenager tragically murdered—when the cathedral has been packed to the rafters with local people in celebration or in grief. It is a unique service not provided by any other institution.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): I wholly support the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, and does he agree with me that the issue is about not just cathedrals, but small village churches with, in many cases, small congregations, who go to great efforts to raise large sums of money to make their facilities more usable for the rest of the community? Does he agree also that the proposed change is a pretty poor advertisement for the big society?
Mr Bradshaw: I absolutely agree.
The Government, in their consultation document, claim that the impact of the change on churches will be small, but that is not the case. Some 45% of grade I listed buildings in England are maintained by the Church of England, including 42 cathedrals. Their upkeep is incredibly expensive, and there are no central funds available for building maintenance.
A very large proportion of the alterations made to churches are about making them easier for the community to use, including, for example, installing disabled toilets, kitchens and so on, but the charge will also hit traditional skills and crafts, such as bell hanging and organ building. About £100 million is spent on those works annually, and imposing 20% VAT on them will add £20 million a year to those bills. In reality, much of the work will simply stop, and that will hit local churches, local communities and the building trade—and it will not raise a single extra penny for the Treasury.
The Prime Minister said earlier today at Prime Minister’s questions that the Government would be giving churches the money that they need to make up the loss, but that is also not the case. The compensation being offered in the Budget by extending the listed places of worship grant scheme, which currently refunds the VAT liable on repairs, is a wholly inadequate way to meet the extra cost that the VAT rise will create.
The Government have already cut the listed places of worship grant scheme by a massive two thirds, from £23 million to £7 million a year, and it already covers less than half the cost of current repairs.
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Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, and I suppose I should declare an interest as a patron of the St Peter’s project in my constituency, where we are trying to raise funds to make much-needed alterations and renovations to St Peter’s church in Highfields. There are already considerable pressures on the listed places of worship grant scheme, which is a very good scheme, but one problem with it is that when a church applies to it there is no certainty about the amount of grant that it will receive. Now that this change is being made, those pressures are only going to increase.
Mr Bradshaw: My hon. Friend is exactly right. As I said, the grant already covers only less than half of the cost of repairs, and the £5 million that is being offered to extend it to alterations covers only a quarter of the likely annual cost of those alterations.
A number of churches and cathedrals have already put on hold schemes that were planned or under way. My own cathedral in Exeter faces having to raise several hundred thousand pounds more for its exciting cloister project. The wife of the dean of Wakefield cathedral, which faces an extra £200,000 of costs for alterations, has famously composed a protest song about the VAT hike. The lovely little church in the small Herefordshire village of Llangarron, at which I attended Easter Eucharist, will have to find an extra £60,000 for a project that has been in the pipeline for seven years.
As 26 deans of cathedrals wrote in an unprecedented letter to The Sunday Times on Sunday, this change will seriously jeopardise the sustainability of many of our great buildings, not only for present-day use but for that of future generations. I urge the Government to think again on this very important matter, and I hope, Ms Primarolo, that you will help to facilitate the expression of the will of the House on it shortly.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I want to associate myself with the comments made by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), by my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson); I embarrass him again by calling him that. The proposal for VAT on static caravans will have a seriously deleterious effect on all of east Yorkshire, including Hull, dramatically cutting employment in the area at a time when we are trying to encourage growth and to balance the books. This proposal will do neither; in fact, it will reverse both.
This is a Finance Bill; the aim is to raise money. The latest estimates of the employment impact of this measure are that it will result in 4,000 to 7,500 job losses, of which 1,500 to 2,000 will be in the vicinity of our constituencies. The effect of that in financial terms is pretty straightforward to calculate. The Government estimate that they will raise £30 million to £40 million in VAT from this change. They will lose between £32 million and £65 million in lost national insurance, lost inland revenue, and extra welfare costs. It will therefore do the opposite of what the Budget is attempting to do. When I put that point to the Treasury, people said to me: “We don’t calculate things in that way.” That might sound silly, but there is a substantive point behind it—as I am sure that the shadow Chancellor, who is smiling, will
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know. Usually when one introduces a tax change that leads to job losses, people will, in due course, find another job. In east Yorkshire, two of the three Hull seats have dramatically high unemployment levels already, and the ratio of jobs available to unemployed people seeking them is one of the highest in the country. As a result, the resulting unemployment will not be short term but is likely to last for more than five years. We should calculate the effects of the proposal in this way because, for the foreseeable future, it will cost more than it will raise.
Diana Johnson: The right hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech. Has he seen today’s report that 43 people in my constituency are chasing every vacancy? I set that figure alongside the comments that he is making.
Mr Davis: The hon. Lady makes a powerful point that I am not unfamiliar with. We have all been in similar battles over job losses at BAE in Brough and, in my constituency, job losses to the tune of 1,700 have been announced in the past six months.
This proposal does not stand up, on the Government’s own criteria. Accordingly, I support new clause 6 and will vote for it when it is put to the test.
Albert Owen: It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). Although I agree with the contributions of Members on both sides of the House on the pasty tax and the church buildings tax, I will concentrate on the caravan issue.
As has been said eloquently by the previous speaker and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), the exemption was put in place for good reason. It has been left as it is because previous Chancellors have understood its importance, not only to manufacturing but to tourism. Those two important industries will be damaged if this proposal goes forward. I do not have the confidence of some Members who have spoken that the Chancellor will extend the consultation and that all things will be rosy. The effect of the proposal will be catastrophic for tourism across the United Kingdom.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Chris and Helen Brown set up the Drovers Way holiday caravan park in my constituency just two years ago to diversify their farming business. They have an exciting business model, but they tell me that the VAT proposal will kill their business and put them out of work. What message does the Chancellor have for people like them?
Albert Owen: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The people who have contacted me on this issue are not natural Labour supporters, but business entrepreneurs. The Government have said on numerous occasions that they want to encourage aspiration and to help entrepreneurs and those who want to take risks in business. Those are the very people who will be damaged by this proposal.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab):
Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem relates not only to static caravans, but to mobile caravans? A company called Fifth Wheel in my constituency has just invested £1 million in the manufacture of mobile caravans. It has won 10 awards from the Caravan Club of Great Britain in
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the past 10 years and two awards from the
Daily Post
. Its legs have been knocked from underneath it by a tax that has been foisted on it without any consultation.
Albert Owen: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I am referring specifically to static caravans, but he is right to say that this important industry includes mobile caravans.
A business that employs many hundreds of people across the United Kingdom, including in my constituency, wrote to me to say that 60% of its turnover comes from the sale of caravans. The proposal will be a huge knock to such companies.
Because of the time, I shall keep my remarks brief, but I want to raise one issue that has also been referred to by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George). It will predominantly be the young people who work in this industry who will lose their jobs as a consequence of the proposal. Young people face many pressures in rural areas, especially in finding work and finding a home. Many people get a mobile home in such areas because they aspire to have a second home. They then rent it out to other people when they are not using it, which contributes to the local economy. However, in deprived areas where property prices are low, those people may transfer—because they want to come to beautiful places such as the Isle of Anglesey—
David Morris: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Albert Owen: I will not give way again; I have already given way twice and I want to finish my point.
People who visit places such as the Isle of Anglesey, which I represent, want to go to them regularly. They will therefore buy terraced houses or properties at the lower end of the market and force up the prices of those properties. That will put pressure on affordable housing. I do not think that that is an issue that the Treasury has taken on board.
This exemption is not an anomaly, but is meant to help the industry. If that industry suffers, many people in the tourism and manufacturing industries across the United Kingdom will suffer. We have seen headlines about the granny tax, the pasty tax and the charity tax, but this proposal is an Osborne tax. It was made in No. 11 and will have consequences across the United Kingdom. Tonight, Members on both sides of the House have the opportunity to vote it down. That is the strongest and clearest message that we can send the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his lieutenant. That is true not only of the caravan tax but of the pasty tax, which I will also vote against if there is an opportunity to do so tonight. Let us be consistent. The caravan tax will not raise extra revenue for the Treasury, but it will damage jobs, entrepreneurs, coastal areas of beauty that rely on tourism and areas that rely on the manufacturing of caravans.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): I should like to draw to the Government’s attention a couple of anomalies in the VAT rules that they have created with their Budget proposals. That is quite ironic considering that the reason that Ministers have given for their proposals to change the current VAT rates for pies, pasties and caravans is to iron out such anomalies.
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I start with hot food. The Government propose to amend note 3 in the existing legislation so that
“the current test for ‘hot takeaway food’ which is based on the purposes for which food is heated becomes a simpler and more objective test based on whether the food is above ambient air temperature at the time it is provided to the customer.”
That suggestion is nonsense, and I will explain why.
7.15 pm
I have in my constituency a baker who has a very small shop in which he bakes bread, pies and pasties. He takes his baked products out of his ovens and lets them cool in his glass-covered but unheated serving counter. My constituent, being a good citizen, starts baking his products at 5.30 in the morning, so by the time he opens at 9 o’clock his products are cold before he sells them to his customers. Sometimes his customers want a hot pie, so my baker friend has a microwave oven that he uses to heat up their pie. He then religiously—I have seen him do it—records that the sale of that pie is subject to VAT.
However, when he is busy, my baker friend has to bake a second batch of pies to replenish his stock. If he is really busy, his customers snap up those pies before they have time to cool down. Under the existing regulations, my baker friend does not have to charge VAT on that batch of pies, but it is unclear whether he will have to do so under the new regulations. To be honest, my advice to him was to carry on operating exactly as he does now, but it would be good if the Exchequer Secretary could clarify exactly what his new proposal actually means.
The Exchequer Secretary might also like to explain what is meant by “ambient temperature”, because that is where the new regulations threaten to cause anomalies. For instance, the ambient temperature in my baker friend’s shop is very hot, because his shop is so small that the ovens heat it up. Because he has no air conditioning, the temperature in his shop is even hotter in the summer. Further along the high street, there is a branch of a national chain of bakers, which is larger and air-conditioned, so the ambient temperature there is much lower. That means that under the new rules, one shop in my high street will be able to serve pies at a higher temperature than another without charging VAT. The new rules also mean that both shops can serve hotter pies without charging VAT in the summer than in the winter, when the ambient temperature is much lower. If that is not an anomaly, I do not know what is.
How will the proposed regulation be monitored? Are we going to see hordes of VAT inspectors armed with thermometers swooping down on bakers’ customers as they leave the shop and sticking their thermometers in their pies to see whether they are hotter than the ambient temperature?
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): My hon. Friend may be interested to hear that the written evidence given to the Treasury Committee by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales states that these VAT changes are broadly sensible reforms
“but will still leave plenty of anomalies”.
Gordon Henderson: I can only agree with that:
I accept that there is an argument for trying to address the current situation whereby some shops sell hot pies without charging VAT but others, such as my
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local chippy, have to charge VAT on the hot pies that they sell. However, the Government’s proposal is not an answer. Nor, sadly, is the Opposition’s new clause 1, which is why I cannot support it. I very much hope that the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) will withdraw it, and that he and his colleagues will support new clause 5, which I believe would achieve the Government’s objectives while protecting businesses such as that run by my friend.
Andrew George: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman will be supporting new clause 5. As he knows, no one eats fish and chips cold, but a lot of people eat a good pasty cold. In fact, they are delicious cold. A lot of people go to the many pasty bakers in my constituency, buy pasties hot, take them home, put them in the freezer and use them later. The Government’s proposal clearly does not address that type of consumption.
Gordon Henderson: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me that the proposal is nonsense, but I want to move on to caravans, which are important to my constituency.
The Government’s proposal is allegedly to iron out an anomaly by ensuring that the sales of holiday and leisure caravans are taxed consistently at the standard rate, but once again, it simply creates another anomaly, which I will describe in a moment.
The proposal must be one of the most ill-conceived and badly thought out of all the proposals in this year’s Budget. We have been told consistently that the Government want to help coastal communities, which have become increasingly deprived over the past couple of decades, and which often have a higher level of unemployment than other areas. The Isle of Sheppey in my constituency is one such coastal community. As I have mentioned in the House on a number of occasions, unemployment on the Isle of Sheppey is among the highest in the south-east of England. The island took another knock earlier this year when Thamesteel went into administration. To give them their due, both the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Communities and Local Government have been working hard with my local authorities to find ways of mitigating the closure of Thamesteel by encouraging the growth of other industries, but one of those industries is the tourism and holiday industry, which has declined over the past 40 years, since its ’60s heyday.
In recent months, we have seen the green shoots of recovery in our local tourism scene, boosted in part by the decision of Swale borough council to allow many caravan parks to extend their operating periods from eight to 10 months of the year. That decision gave caravan park owners a real incentive to invest in and upgrade their parks, but success in the caravan holiday business is reliant on a good mix of park-owned caravans for hire and pitches for owner-occupiers. The sale of holiday caravans will be very badly hit if they incur VAT at 20%, and, in turn, the park-owned business will be hit because operators will have to increase their hire charges to balance their books, driving away even more much-needed visitors.
Let us not forget that those visitors are not wealthy people; in the main, they are working class people who strive for a better life by having their own holiday home here in Britain. In my view, the policy has been dreamt
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up by somebody who has never holidayed in a caravan park, has no idea of how the holiday park business operates and has no conception of the disastrous effect the policy will have on many coastal and rural communities.
It is deeply ironic that the Government are striving to give coastal communities help up the ladder of prosperity while using their feet to kick away the very same ladder with this ill-thought-out proposal. I urge hon. Members to support new clause 6.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo): Order. May I just let Members who wish to speak know that I need to give the Minister time to reply to the debate and intend to call him at 7.40 pm? Hon. Members might therefore want to make their remarks slightly shorter.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): I wish to speak principally to new clause 7, but, in passing, I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon Henderson), particularly on seaside and coastal towns. I have received a letter on precisely those issues from my holiday village, Martin Mere, in Blackpool, which has caravan sites as well as wonderful beaches.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) eloquently described the broader issue. I do not want to dwell on the architectural glories of churches, but in my constituency, churches and places of worship have done immensely valuable work in adapting their buildings for community and voluntary sector use. That is why I was mystified when I raised the issue in Prime Minister’s questions today. He had a bizarre brief on swimming pools in Tudor houses. We do not have many swimming pools in Tudor houses in Blackpool, but we have many of the churches and places of worship to which I referred. Incidentally, although it will suffer massively from this proposal, this is not just an issue for the Church of England. Many of the reformed and independent Churches, the Roman Catholic Church and other denominations and religions also do immensely valuable work.
Sir Alan Beith: I declare an interest as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust, which is restoring a Catholic church in Blackpool. Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that when alterations were taxed differently from repairs there was a perverse incentive to alter rather than merely repair, but that the Government could help a lot if they were prepared to put more money into the fund that churches can use to bypass VAT?
Mr Marsden: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention and I pay tribute to his work as chairman of the Historic Chapels Trust. I can only say, however, that I know of no examples in Blackpool where such a process has been the driver. The driver in Blackpool has been to make churches, such as the town centre church, St John’s church, and Holy Trinity church in South Shore, accessible for community meetings and so on. As has rightly been said, this is the big society in action.
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Blackpool also has a Salvation Army citadel. It does an immense amount of good work, not least with the homeless community. If it wants to make alterations to its buildings to expand the outreach services and community use it currently offers, it will, as a result of this proposal, face a whopping 20% extra in VAT on any building or alteration work. That is a recipe for stopping all that good work nationwide. As I indicated to the Prime Minister earlier, that is shooting the big society in the foot. It is absolute nonsense.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter referred to the listed places of worship grant scheme. I deplore Ministers’ attempt to cloud the issue by saying that they have thrown £5 million into the pot for the grant scheme. Treasury Ministers and the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport are perfectly aware that that will not address the issue, in any shape or form, of the losses that will be made under this process.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Would it be appropriate for the Minister to say whether the Government consulted the Churches’ Legislation Advisory Service and whether they were aware that the Churches were responsible for nearly half the grade I listed buildings that this proposal will affect?
Mr Marsden: It would be absolutely appropriate, not least because there seems to have been scant consultation with any of the Churches or other religious groups or places of worship on this issue. Perhaps the Government would like to start taking notice of the e-petition on this issue, which already has more than 16,000 signatures. Anne Sloman, chair of the Church Buildings Council, wrote to the Chancellor last week stating:
“a very large proportion of the alterations to these buildings…are concerned with making these buildings viable for use by the wider community by installing meeting rooms, lavatories and kitchens. This is the Big Society in action. The imposition of 20 percent VAT…means…most of it will simply stop.”
In conclusion, this is a nonsensical policy. At the end of holy week, the Prime Minister piously talked about the Church in action, but at the same time he let this howler through in a Budget that he claimed to have read line by line. I appeal to the Treasury Front-Bench team, if it is worth appealing to them on this matter, to take notice of what is being said across the Committee. They ought to do a little more line-by-line consideration of this proposal’s perverse effects if they want to dissuade people from the general judgment often passed—possibly very cynically—that some officials and others in the Treasury do indeed know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Nicholas Soames: I believe that there is a great deal in the Budget to applaud and support, but on this issue I wholly agree with the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), who has just sat down, and the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), who put it very well. I also know that my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) has written a powerful letter about this matter.
7.30 pm
I understand entirely the Chancellor’s desire to make it a reality of public policy that methods and amounts of taxation should be synchronised and brought together. However, there must sometimes be occasions in our
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public life in this country when that is simply not possible, and that is the case when it comes to damaging the fabric of this country, which is what this VAT proposal will do. It will make things impossible for the churches and congregations the length and breadth of the land, and not just in the great cathedrals in the great cities, but in the small churches with small congregations, who, by the sweat of their brow, secure those buildings for the future. They make them the centre of their communities, the very places around which we on this side of the House—and, of course, those on the other side—want to bring to reality the whole concept of the big society.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the churches and the cathedrals across the land play a vital role in regeneration, growing the economy and tourism, and contribute to our community in a number of different ways, which makes it essential that the Treasury looks on VAT for alterations with great compassion?
Nicholas Soames: They do all those things, but they are also places that represent the spirit of England down the centuries. To trifle with them in this way is really not a sensible thing to do, either for the nation at the moment or for the future.
I beg the Treasury Minister to consider whether it would not be worth while laying this measure aside and considering how better it might be to come up with a different scheme. As the right hon. Member for Exeter said, the listed places of worship grant scheme could not possibly compensate for the kind of money involved in imposing a 20% VAT rate on alterations. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to view this issue with great care, to pay attention and to understand the feelings in this House and elsewhere in the country among people who give of themselves to keep such places going. They mind very much indeed, and their views should be heard and considered.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I wish to speak in support of new clause 2, which stands in my name. It deals with a long-standing campaign that I have undertaken alongside a charity in my constituency, Chariotts, which offers dial-a-ride-type services to disabled people and has been established for a number of years. It has become more and more successful, transporting people in wheelchairs and those with severe disabilities across the constituency.
The problem in recent years is that as the charity has grown, so has the likelihood of its becoming registrable for VAT in the near future. A VAT anomaly exists that is relevant to Chariotts, as well as other organisations across the country, which is that there is an exemption from VAT for public transport vehicles with 10 seats or more, but not for those with fewer than 10 seats. That means that a disabled passenger undertaking a journey in a small vehicle will have to pay VAT on the journey. When the charity becomes registrable, there will be a 20% increase for disabled passengers, which is extremely serious for individuals on fixed incomes.
I have raised this issue on many occasions in the Chamber, as well as with the Exchequer Secretary elsewhere. He told me in a written answer:
18 Apr 2012 : Column 438
“No estimates have been made of the cost of extending this zero rate as long-standing formal agreements with our European partners prevent us from unilaterally extending the scope of our existing zero rates or introducing new zero rates.”—[Official Report, 28 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 718W.]
That was quite a categorical no to extending the exemption, to go alongside the statement that European policy was preventing it from occurring. Imagine my astonishment, therefore, when I learned on Monday that the Budget introduces an exemption—a further VAT concession—for small cable-based transportation systems. Ski lifts and the like will benefit from a tax cut from 20% to 5%. There is to be a reduced rate of VAT for skiers on the piste. We have already heard about pasties and caravans. Now, for reasons that are unclear, the Government are giving a tax cut to people having a luxury holiday.
Mr Reid: Skiing is an important industry in the highlands of Scotland, and I am delighted at this tax cut.
Ian Lucas: I beg to differ. It will affect one particular sector. It is rather convenient that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who has Aviemore in his constituency, has been much more amenable to this tax cut than to a tax cut for disabled people not only in my constituency but in Skye, in the highlands of Scotland and right across the country. It is a disgrace that the Government said no to me when I asked for assistance for disabled people but then said yes to a request from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who has a major constituency interest. I want the Exchequer Secretary to tell the Committee how much this tax cut is going to cost the Treasury, and to undertake to look into the matter, for the benefit of disabled people and not of skiers.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I remind Members that I will turn to the Minister at 7.40, which means that I will stop the Member who is making a contribution at that time.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I rise to support the comments that have been made by my right hon. and hon. Friends from across east Yorkshire, who have outlined the terrible impact that the so-called caravan tax will have on the county. For the sake of brevity, I shall not repeat their arguments.
Instead, I shall concentrate on a particular document that has caused me considerable alarm. It has also alarmed one of the park owners in my constituency. My constituency also covers part of Lincolnshire, which contains a large number of holiday parks that will be affected by the measure. The HMRC document that outlines a summary of the impacts says of the economic impact:
“This measure might lead to a small increase in the price of static caravans”.
Even I can do the maths on that one, even though my bank balance might suggest otherwise. Applying 20% VAT to the price of a static caravan is not a small increase; it is a considerable increase. One of my park owners told me that the manufacturers sell their units for an average price of £25,000. Doing the math, as the Americans would say, we discover that that will mean an increase of £5,000, which is not a small increase at all.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 439
That same park owner also wanted me to pass on to Ministers a point that I thought we all understood—namely, that businesses make decisions based on the tax regime that is in place, and that they look forward and make those decisions for the many years ahead. Another of my constituents has invested £500,000 this winter to extend the number of pitches on a holiday park that currently has 450 pitches. He said that the tax change would make it almost impossible for him to continue to employ the same number of people that he does at present, or for that expansion, in a relatively depressed area, to go ahead. I urge colleagues across the House to vote tonight to save that industry.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on historic places of worship, I have been approached by people from all over the country and asked to come out against the proposal to take away the zero VAT rating on alterations to listed places of worship. Such alterations include improved access for the disabled, the installation of toilets and small kitchens, the provision of better heating and lighting and the introduction of more energy-efficient measures. They are not just for the congregation; they are for the whole community. They encourage the community use of religious buildings and make an increasing contribution to attracting tourists all over the country. These church buildings are vital, whether they be vast edifices like York Minster, of which as a York lad I am immensely proud, or small parish churches all over the country. The Government need to look again at this silly, stupid, unprecedented and unconsulted-on proposal.
Mr Gauke: We have had a thoughtful and impassioned debate this evening, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to set out the Government’s case for addressing some of the anomalies within the VAT system. In the time available, I will try to address as many points as possible, but I hope the Committee will forgive me if I do not take many interventions, so that I can cover as much ground as possible.
Let me begin with hot takeaway food. The current rules on the VATability of such food have been made complex and unfair by a patchwork of different legal decisions taken over the decades. The definition of hot takeaway food has been in place since 1984, and it applies to food that
“has been heated for the purposes of enabling it to be consumed at a temperature above ambient air temperature”
“above that temperature at the time it is provided to the customer”.
There have been repeated efforts since the 1980s, however, to chip away at this boundary. A number of businesses have argued in litigation that although the food they may provide to their customers is hot and is taken away, it should not be taxed as hot takeaway food, but should instead be zero-rated. Some have argued successfully that their intention was not to provide their customers with food to be eaten hot, but that they heated their food for other reasons instead—for hygiene reasons, or to finish the cooking process, or to provide evidence of freshness, or to create an aroma or to improve appearance, crispiness or texture.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 440
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): Will the Minister give way?
Mr Gauke: No. As I said, I am not going to give way very often.
Those arguments have not always been successful, but they have resulted in some businesses being able to secure VAT-free treatment for a range of hot products, such as hot rotisserie chickens, meat pies, pasties and panini. Other businesses, however, have continued to apply VAT to the similar hot-food products that they sell. They have accepted or the courts have ruled that their intention is to heat their food products so that their customers can eat them hot. Under the current rules, a small independent fish and chip shop will have to charge VAT on its hot chicken, but a major supermarket will argue that its rotisserie chickens are zero-rated. One baker who keeps his sausage rolls in a hot cabinet to provide his customers with a hot snack will charge tax, but the baker next door who keeps them hot and argues that the purpose is to maintain an appealing aroma will claim that they are zero-rated. The current rules mean that many customers simply do not know whether they are being charged VAT on their hot food because the treatment depends on the particular supplier’s purpose in heating the food. The new rules will ensure a level playing field, and we are removing the subjective element.
Dan Rogerson: Will the Minister give way?
Mr Gauke: Let me make a point about the arguments surrounding ambient temperature. This test has been in place since 1984. We do not expect staff to take detailed temperature readings every time they sell a pasty. HMRC will take a pragmatic approach, and provide businesses with guidance, taking into account the responses of businesses on how to implement the change. I have to point out that existing simplification schemes are already available to allow businesses to calculate their VAT liability by reference to a fixed percentage of their turnover without requiring staff to consider the temperature of every product sold. This is a pragmatic approach, already in existence.
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Will the Minister give way?
Mr Gauke: Let me deal now with listed buildings. There are some areas of confusion. The fact is that repairs and maintenance to all buildings, including listed buildings, have always been liable to VAT, while alterations to non-listed buildings have been since 1984.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr Gauke: No, I really want to make some progress.
None of that has been changed by the Budget announcement. There is a borderline that causes confusion between repairs and alterations. The Budget decision also reflects the view that grants provide a more flexible mechanism than VAT for providing specific financial support for heritage—
Mr Leigh: On that point, will my hon. Friend give way?
18 Apr 2012 : Column 441
Mr Gauke: Well, I am about to make a point about it. We have increased the funding for the listed places of worship grant scheme and broadened its scope so that churches and other listed places of worship can claim grants to offset the impact of VAT on their alterations.
Mr Leigh: Will the Minister give way on that point?
Mr Gauke: Our original announcement of £5 million was based on a Church report, but it is not set in stone. We are talking to Churches, and if there is good evidence that more is needed, we will be happy to provide it.
Mr Leigh: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr Gauke: I will, very briefly.
7.45 pm
Mr Leigh: This is a key point. The Government have announced that they will increase the listed places of worship grant scheme by £5 million, but they have cut it from £23 million to £7 million, so that is totally inadequate. What we want tonight is a commitment from them that they will resolve the problem. Half the ancient buildings in this land are run by the Church of England, by ordinary people who want to support their local communities. The Government must compromise on this issue.
Mr Gauke: I refer my hon. Friend to the comments that I made before his intervention.
Let me respond briefly to what was said by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). We are restricted in regard to what we can do for public transport. If we provided a reduced rate for passenger transport, we would not be able to focus it entirely on charities; it would apply more widely to taxis.
Taxing static holiday caravans and larger touring caravans will bring their treatment into line with that of other holiday accommodation. VAT is already paid on mobile caravans, camper vans, canal narrow boats and camping equipment. We therefore propose to replace the current definition of a zero-rated caravan, which is based on size, with a new definition based on whether the caravan is designed for residential use. We are considering applying British Standard 3632, and are also considering an additional test. However, I have received representations from, among others, my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) arguing against that, and we will examine those arguments closely.
Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) (Con): Will the Minister give way?
Mr Gauke: I cannot, because I have only about two minutes left, but my hon. Friend has expressed his views to me very strongly.
We have heard a number of forceful and impassioned arguments this evening. The Government think it right to address anomalies in the tax system, but some of the arguments that we have heard outside the House and some of the media commentaries have not been terribly well informed, and we want a proper, informed debate and consultation. I have heard the arguments in favour of extending the consultation period and I think that that is reasonable in the circumstances, so rather than closing the period on 4 May, we will extend it to 18 May. We want people to respond to the consultation, although
18 Apr 2012 : Column 442
it is right for us to address the anomalies. For example, those with static caravans and those who run park homes or caravan sites are registered for VAT, but can recover—
Mr Gauke: I will give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart).
Mr Graham Stuart: A two-week extension is not a large extension, but it is an extension none the less. However, the Government and the Chancellor must ensure that this is a genuine consultation. Ministers have heard what has been said tonight. They must think again, and reverse their proposal. If they say that they will do so, I shall be happy to take that at face value, but we do not want to see thousands of jobs in east Yorkshire axed as a result of this measure.
Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend continues to make his case very strongly. We are, of course, listening to the arguments, but we think it right to have a VAT system that deals with some of the anomalies, and that is why we have finally addressed some of the problems that have remained in our VAT system for too long.
Cathy Jamieson: At the outset of this debate there was a bit of laughing and joking, but the tone quickly changed as people realised the seriousness of the issues under discussion. The Minister’s contribution reminded me of the well-known phrase, “When you’re in a hole, you’d better stop digging”—particularly when Members on the Government Benches are looking so miserable.
I hope the Minister has listened to what has been said. In order to be helpful—and recognising that it was, perhaps, lack of attention to detail and unintended consequences, rather than malevolence, that prompted the Government to introduce these proposals, which would affect jobs and the economy—I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause, but I shall press other new clauses in this group to a Division.
7.50 pm
Seven hours having elapsed since the commencement of p roceedings , the proceedings were int errupted (Programme Order, 16 April ).
The Chair put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83D).
‘No new Order shall be made under section 30(4) or 31(2) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer has fully reviewed the impact of those changes on jobs, living standards and businesses and placed the review in the Library of the House of Commons.’.—(Cathy Jamieson.)
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.
The
Committee
divided:
Ayes 246, Noes 312.
[7.50 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reckless, Mark
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Nic Dakin and
Jonathan Ashworth
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Jeremy Wright and
Mr Shailesh Vara
Question accordingly negatived.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 443
18 Apr 2012 : Column 444
18 Apr 2012 : Column 445
18 Apr 2012 : Column 446
18 Apr 2012 : Column 447
‘No new Order shall be made under section 30(4) or 31(2) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 which shall affect baked products when no attempt is made to keep the product hot for consumption.’.—(Stephen Gilbert.)
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.
The Committee divided:
Ayes 260, Noes 295.
[8.3 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Philip
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Eustice, George
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mahmood, Shabana
Main, Mrs Anne
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, Dr Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Murray, Sheryll
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Newton, Sarah
O'Donnell, Fiona
Offord, Mr Matthew
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reckless, Mark
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rogerson, Dan
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Swales, Ian
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Jonathan Ashworth and
Stephen Gilbert
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Jeremy Wright and
Mark Hunter
Question accordingly negatived.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 448
18 Apr 2012 : Column 449
18 Apr 2012 : Column 450
18 Apr 2012 : Column 451
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans): We come now to new clause 6. I call Mr Stuart to move it formally.
Mr Graham Stuart: After the concession by the Government, I choose not to move the new clause.
‘No new Order shall be made under section 30(4) or 31(2) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 which amends the Act to apply to holiday caravans that are currently zero rated.’.—(Diana Johnson.)
The First Deputy Chairman: The question is, that the clause be—[ Interruption. ] The clause has been moved by another Member, which is allowable.
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.
The Committee divided:
Ayes 262, Noes 287.
[8.15 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davis, rh Mr David
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dorries, Nadine
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mahmood, Shabana
Main, Mrs Anne
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, Dr Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Pritchard, Mark
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reckless, Mark
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Mr Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Vickers, Martin
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Jonathan Ashworth and
Nic Dakin
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barwell, Gavin
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Jeremy Wright and
Mark Hunter
Question accordingly negatived.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 452
18 Apr 2012 : Column 453
18 Apr 2012 : Column 454
18 Apr 2012 : Column 455
‘No new Order shall be made under section 30(4) of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 which amends the current definition of “protected building” in the Act.’.—(Mr Bradshaw.)
Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.
The Committee divided:
Ayes 258, Noes 293.
[8.28 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curran, Margaret
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dorries, Nadine
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mahmood, Shabana
Main, Mrs Anne
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, Dr Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Pritchard, Mark
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reckless, Mark
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walker, Mr Charles
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Jonathan Ashworth and
Nic Dakin
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hopkins, Kris
Howell, John
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
O'Brien, Mr Stephen
Offord, Mr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Jeremy Wright and
Mark Hunter
Question accordingly negatived.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 456
18 Apr 2012 : Column 457
18 Apr 2012 : Column 458
18 Apr 2012 : Column 459
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 8, page 532, line 14, in schedule 23, leave out sub-paragraphs (2) to (5).
Amendment 52, page 532, line 29, after ‘journey’, insert ‘or relevant Scotland journey’.
Amendment 53, page 532, line 41, at end insert—
‘(4E) A passenger’s journey is a “relevant Scotland journey”—
18 Apr 2012 : Column 460
(a) in the case of a journey which has only one flight, if the flight begins in Scotland, and
(b) in any other case, if the first flight of the journey—
(ii) is not followed by a connected flight beginning at an airport or aerodrome in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A.’.
Amendment 43, page 533, line 13, after ‘duty)’, insert—
‘or section 30B (Wales long haul rates of duty)’.
Amendment 54, page 533, line 13, after ‘duty)’, insert—
‘or section 30B (Scotland long haul rates of duty)’.
Amendment 44, page 533, line 16, after ‘30A’, insert ‘and 30B’.
Amendment 55, page 533, line 16, after ‘30A’, insert ‘30B’.
Amendment 45, page 534, line 45, at end insert—
‘30B Wales long haul rates of duty
(1) This section applies to the carriage of a chargeable passenger if—
(a) the carriage begins on or after the relevant day,
(b) the only flight, or the first flight, of the passenger’s journey begins at a place in Wales,
(c) the passenger’s journey does not end at a place in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A, and
(d) if the passenger’s journey has more than one flight, the first flight is not followed by a connected flight beginning at a place in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A.
(2) Air passenger duty is chargeable on the carriage of the chargeable passenger at the rate determined as follows.
(3) If the passenger’s journey ends at a place in a territory specified in Part 2 of Schedule 5A—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph.
(4) If the passenger’s journey ends at a place in a territory specified in Part 3 of Schedule 5A—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph.
(5) If the passenger’s journey ends at any other place—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the National Assembly for Wales for the purposes of this paragraph.
(6) The rate of £0 may be set for the purposes of any paragraph.
(7) The same rate may be set for the purposes of two or more paragraphs.
(8) Any rate set must not exceed the rate that would apply if this section were not in force.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 461
(9) Subsections (5) to (7) and (10) to (12) of section 30 apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of that section.
(10) “The relevant day” means the day appointed as such by an order.
(11) Section 42(4) and (5) does not apply to an order under subsection (10).
(12) An Act of the National Assembly of Wales means an Act passed under Part IV of the Government of Wales Act 2006.’.
Amendment 56, page 534, line 45, at end insert—
‘30B Scotland long haul rates of duty
(1) This section applies to the carriage of a chargeable passenger if—
(a) the carriage begins on or after the relevant day,
(b) the only flight, or the first flight, of the passenger’s journey begins at an airport or aerodrome in Scotland,
(c) the passenger’s journey does not end at an airport or aerodrome in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A, and
(d) if the passenger’s journey has more than one flight, the first flight is not followed by a connected flight beginning at an airport or aerodrome in the United Kingdom or a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A.
(2) Air passenger duty is chargeable on the carriage of the chargeable passenger at the rate determined as follows.
(3) If the passenger’s journey ends at an airport or aerodrome in a territory specified in Part 2 of Schedule 5A—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph.
(4) If the passenger’s journey ends at an airport or aerodrome in a territory specified in Part 3 of Schedule 5A—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph.
(5) If the passenger’s journey ends at any other airport or aerodrome—
(a) if the passenger’s agreement for carriage provides for standard class travel in relation to every flight on the passenger’s journey, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph, and
(b) in any other case, the rate is the rate set by an Act of the Scottish Parliament for the purposes of this paragraph.
(6) The rate of £0 may be set for the purposes of any paragraph.
(7) The same rate may be set for the purposes of two or more paragraphs.
(8) Any rate set must not exceed the rate which would apply if this section were not in force.
(9) Subsections (5) to (7) and (10) to (12) of section 30 apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of that section.
(10) “The relevant day” means the day appointed as such by an order.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 462
(11) Section 42(4) and (5) does not apply to an order under subsection (10).
(12) An Act of the Scottish Parliament means an Act passed under section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998.’.
Amendment 46, page 535, line 11, after ‘30A’, insert ‘or 30B’.
Amendment 48, page 535, line 16, after ‘Ireland’, insert ‘and Wales’.
Amendment 58, page 535, line 16, after ‘Ireland’, insert ‘and Scotland’.
Amendment 49, page 535, line 18, after ‘operators’, insert ‘in—
Amendment 47, page 535, line 22, after ‘30A’, insert ‘or 30B’.
Amendment 50, page 535, line 27, after ‘30A’, insert ‘or 30B’.
Amendment 51, page 536, line 12, at end insert—
‘41B Wales long haul rates of duty: disclosure of information
(1) An officer of Revenue and Customs may disclose to the Secretary of State, the Treasury or Welsh Ministers any information for purposes connected with the setting of rates of duty under section 30B above, including (in particular) to enable the setting of rates under that section to be taken into account for the purposes of section 118 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Payments into Welsh Consolidated Fund: grants).
(2) Information disclosed under subsection (1) above may not be further disclosed without the consent of the Commissioners (which may be general or specific).
(3) In section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (wrongful disclosure) references to subsection 18(1) of that Act are to be read as including a reference to subsection (2) above.’.
Amendment 60, page 536, line 13, at end insert—
‘41B Scotland long haul rates of duty: disclosure of information
(1) An officer of Revenue and Customs may disclose to the Scottish Ministers, the Treasury or the Secretary of State any information for purposes connected with the setting of rates of duty under section 30B above, including (in particular) to enable the setting of rates under that section to be taken into account for the purposes of Part 3, section 64, subsection 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Scottish Consolidated Fund).
(2) Information disclosed under subsection (1) above may not be further disclosed without the consent of the Commissioners (which may be general or specific).
(3) In section 19 of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (wrongful disclosure) references to subsection 18(1) of that Act are to be read as including a reference to subsection (2) above.’.
Amendment 61, page 536, line 17, at end insert—
‘(1) The Scotland Act, Schedule 5, section A1 (exceptions) is amended as follows:
“(1) Air Passenger Duty on all flights that are—
(a) originating from an airport or aerodrome in Scotland and,
(b) not part of a connecting flight from—
(i) a domestic UK airport or aerodrome, or
(ii) a territory specified in Part 1 of Schedule 5A of the Finance Act 1994.”’.
That schedule 23 be the Twenty-third schedule to the Bill.
18 Apr 2012 : Column 463
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith): To ensure that all hon. Members who wish to do so can speak in this debate, I intend to lay out extremely briefly what clause 189 and schedule 23 do and reprise at the end of the debate.
The clause and schedule make four changes to air passenger duty. First, they set APD rates for 2012-13, which took effect from 1 April this year, as announced in the autumn statement of 2011. Secondly, they extend APD for the first time to business jets and flights taken aboard other small aircraft. Thirdly, they give statutory effect to the reduced rate of APD on all direct long-haul flights from Northern Ireland, which was introduced in November. Fourthly and finally, they introduce the long-term solution of granting the Northern Ireland Assembly the power to set APD rates for all direct long-haul flights in future.
The changes provide certainty to both industry and the consumer. I commend them to the Committee and look forward to a brief debate.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): I rise to speak to amendment 8 in my name and those of my colleagues, and I should like to press amendment 61 to a Division.
I am short of time, so I shall keep interventions to a minimum. There has been co-operation among the parties to try to give hon. Members time to speak, and I shall try to keep my part of the bargain.
In fact, I have risen to speak in favour of a Government policy—a well-thought-out policy that would do wonders for the economy. I am speaking, of course, of the devolution of air passenger duty to Northern Ireland. I like that great idea so much that I should like APD devolved to Scotland as well. We want equality of treatment and opportunity for Scotland.
In reality, I and many in Scotland, and the aviation industry, feel that APD is unfair and that it places an undue burden on business and travellers at a time when the Government should be encouraging the movement of people and goods to spur economic growth. The amendments in my name and those of my hon. Friends therefore propose to halt the rise in APD and devolve the power to Scotland, which is a recommendation not only of the Scottish Government, but of the Calman commission.
The idea of the cut in APD is simple: the UK already has the highest APD in the world, which surely cannot boost economic growth. The industry has had its say. Derek Provan, managing director of Aberdeen airport has said:
“Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow airports issued a joint letter to the Chancellor ahead of the Budget calling on the UK Government to create a level playing field for the UK aviation industry, which is subject to the highest aviation taxes in the world…The leaders of BA, EasyJet, Ryanair and Virgin Atlantic also jointly warned that the double inflation increase would hit ‘millions of hard working families in the UK.’ They said a family of four flying economy class to Australia would pay £500 in APD, whereas in 2005, they would have paid just £80. BA also recently revealed that it had plans to halve the number of new recruits in 2012 as a result of APD.”
Jim O’Sullivan, managing director of Edinburgh Airport, has said:
“APD is already costing Scotland passengers and having an impact on tourism revenues. We know from discussions with our airline partners that it is a major factor in their decision to
18 Apr 2012 : Column 464
connect further routes to Scotland. We would urge the Westminster Government to see Scotland as it does Northern Ireland and understand the need to both reduce and devolve this unfair and damaging tax.”
Sammy Wilson: I agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman has said about the general level of APD, but does he not recognise that this measure is the result of the climate change legislation passed in a previous Parliament which his party supported? The chickens are coming home to roost, with extra green taxes being imposed on poor consumers across the United Kingdom.
8.45 pm
Mr MacNeil: It is not the taxes that are the problem but the level of the taxes, who is controlling them and what they are doing with them to stifle economic growth.
Furthermore, Amanda McMillan, chief executive of Glasgow airport, said:
“On the question of devolution of APD, Glasgow Airport has always been supportive of this proposal given the Scottish government’s more progressive approach to aviation and its greater appreciation of the role the industry plays in supporting the growth of the Scottish economy.”
Charlie Elphicke: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr MacNeil: I am sorry but there is no time. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] If I have time later and the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene then, he may.
The Scottish Government Transport Minister, Keith Brown, said:
“We need to be able to deal with the competitive and connectivity disadvantages that Scotland faces and if APD were devolved now we could provide the means to incentivise airlines to provide new direct international connections to Scotland, benefiting our aviation industry and our passengers and supporting the growth of the Scottish economy. The UK government needs to listen to the many voices in Scotland who clearly want to see full devolution of”
the APD powers to Scotland. The Scottish Chambers of Commerce’s chief executive, Liz Cameron, said:
“Current rates of APD seem more suited to controlling capacity constraints at Heathrow than they do with the needs of regional airports, and devolution of this tax would afford the Scottish Government the opportunity to create an air transport package for Scotland designed to improve our direct international connectivity.”
A range of voices throughout Scottish industry and aviation are clearly calling for the devolution of APD.
We have been calling for the devolution of APD to the Scottish Parliament for some time. Most recently, we called for it to be part of the Scotland Bill, but unfortunately the Government and Labour opposed the idea. Today, however, we are arguing again for the devolution of APD in a different context. We do not need to argue the viability anymore, because the Government conceded that point in agreeing to devolve APD to Northern Ireland.
Charlie Elphicke: We have airports in Kent. Why should we not have regionalisation of APD for all regional airports? Why should it just be special pleading for Scotland?
Mr MacNeil:
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I hope he will join me in the Lobby, because if it is good enough for Scotland, surely it is good enough
18 Apr 2012 : Column 465
for Kent. We are happy enough for it to be devolved to Kent if it wants it. We are not the type of people to want a power for ourselves that we would deny to others. We are not the type of people who would give it to Northern Ireland but not to Scotland.
The amendment is straight and to the point. It would allow the Scottish Parliament to set APD rates for Scotland. By passing it, under the rules in the Scotland Act 1998, the Treasury would redirect those specific funds to the Scottish consolidated fund instead of to a UK consolidated fund. With this economic lever, we in Scotland would have the ability to set our own rates, although owing to legal reasons we could not increase them—but frankly why would we? Higher rates of such taxes and the punitive fuel duty can only increase inflation and reduce productivity.
The evidence is growing in our favour. My office has discovered that Scotland has been getting the short end of the stick on non-EU flights. According to the Department for Transport, Scotland has only four non-EU direct routes—air routes that fly in and out of Scotland to a non-EU country. Let us compare that with our Celtic and Scandinavian neighbours. Norway and Ireland are connected to key emerging economies such as Russia, and Denmark is connected not only to Russia but to China, Japan and 24 other non-EU countries. Norway has connections with about 15 non-EU destinations, and Ireland with about 10, while Scotland is trailing with four. It is remarkable, given all this, that Edinburgh is such a successful financial centre. Arguably, Scotland was comparatively better connected in the days of the Icelandic sagas than it is now, with the Westminster Government controlling APD.
The UK Government are responsible for the negotiation of air routes with other countries. In short, Governments agree to routes in international air agreements and later decide where the routes go. In that capacity, the Westminster Government have failed Scottish airports. For more than 65 years, Governments have argued for more and more routes to the south-east of the UK, with only a handful making the road north of the M25. Devolving APD would take the pressure off Heathrow, with the calls for a third runway. Given that Monday is St George’s day, this measure would be almost a St George’s day gift from the SNP to the people of the south-east of England.
Cathy Jamieson: Before the hon. Gentleman moves on to other things, I wonder whether he might say a bit more about the relationship with his Celtic friends, as several amendments in this group affect Wales. Would it not make sense to look at the issue when the Silk commission reports, given that it is looking at a range of fiscal issues concerning Wales?
Mr MacNeil: I am glad that the hon. Lady seems to support devolving air passenger duty to Wales. Perhaps that could be extended to Scotland as well.
Without the ability to negotiate our own air routes, we therefore need other economic levers to attract businesses and travellers to Scotland. The current situation forces business and travellers to commute to Scotland via one of the most congested air hubs in the world. The south-east can absorb the impact of an 8% increase in air passenger duty. With the countless flights that go through London everyday, it would take a very severe
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drop in tourism indeed to affect travel through London. However, given that Scotland has already seen a serious decline in air routes—from BMI pulling out of Glasgow, as well as Ryanair—we have to think about the impact that the APD rise will have on us.
Mr Reid: I infer from what the hon. Gentleman is saying that if APD were devolved to Scotland, the SNP in the Scottish Parliament would want to cut it. Does he accept that that would mean less income for the Scottish Government, and if so, what cuts does he plan to make to services to make up for that?
Mr MacNeil: Perhaps I can expand the hon. Gentleman’s thinking. If we were to grow from four non-EU routes to 10 or 15, or to the 24 that Denmark has, we might see a growth in revenue. This is about raising revenue, not the precise level of taxation. We would be looking to raise revenue in Scotland and grow our economy, which is the plan for independence—indeed, it is why we want independence.
If APD is increased, Scotland will be put at a further disadvantage in attracting not only international passengers, but international business. As I said earlier, the Government have already conceded that point in devolving APD to Northern Ireland.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is being a bit disingenuous as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. The reason APD was devolved to Northern Ireland was because the airport in Northern Ireland was in serious danger of losing continental flights. Also, people were travelling to the south of the island, to Eire, to travel. The decision was made for economic reasons, to maintain the airport in Northern Ireland. It was nothing to do with the principle of devolution.
Mr MacNeil: It is not unusual to see Labour once again abandoning principle in its arguments. Surely we should be looking to allow Scotland to compete with other countries in the world. I hope that the hon. Gentleman would reflect on that.
Brandon Lewis: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s generosity in giving way. Does he not accept, however, that there is a simple logistical and geographical difference between Scotland, which is linked with England and its airports, and Northern Ireland, which is obviously competing with a fellow European Union member state? That alone is a big difference.
Mr MacNeil: As I have pointed out, our proposal would benefit the south-east of England as well as Scotland. Surely the hon. Gentleman can see that, given what Conservatives say about taxation.
Phil Wilson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr MacNeil: I am sorry, but given the time I will take no further interventions.
Three airports support the devolution of air passenger duty, as do the chambers of commerce. They want it to be independently controlled in Scotland. They will be frustrated by what the House of Commons in London will probably do this evening, when I press amendment 61 to a vote. Frustration is a negative, but in my view
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this will have a positive outcome. Members who cannot yet understand the rising support for Scottish independence can surely see that those who are frustrated about APD this evening will begin to see a better way of dealing with the allied intransigence from London, on this and other matters, large and small. That will be one of the many reasons why people will vote for Scottish independence in 2014—to move the Scottish economy and Scottish connectivity forward.
I only hope that I have aided Members in understanding that this is not an SNP call: we are only a vehicle for the community of Scotland, along with the three airports and the chambers of commerce, in improving industry and creating better chances for families. The amendments in my name and those of my hon. Friends therefore seek to stop the increase in APD and to continue the pattern of devolving things to the Scottish Parliament, which is a more sensible locus for controlling air passenger duty.
Cathy Jamieson: I shall keep my remarks brief in order to give other Members an opportunity to speak. I have listened to the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and, as I said in an intervention, it is important that we should have an opportunity to look at this matter in the round. Given that a recent review of air passenger duty resulted in no changes being made, I hope that the Minister will take this opportunity to consider taking a further look.
Phil Wilson: I have a small airport, Durham Tees Valley airport, in my constituency. The problem with air passenger duty relates to regional airports, and I believe that we need a UK solution, rather than a Scottish solution or a Welsh solution. There are specific reasons for the arrangements in Northern Ireland. We need a duty that reflects the needs of the regional airports outside the south-east of England.
Cathy Jamieson: That is exactly the point that I was going to make. I understand the strength of feeling in Scotland on this matter. I also understand the situation in Wales. I understand why people want to grow the economy there, and I could talk about a whole range of issues relating to that. I shall resist the temptation, however, and stick to the matter in hand.
The workings of the Silk commission could provide an opportunity to look at this matter. There are also opportunities to do so in Scotland. The Labour party there has said that it is not against the notion of further devolution in principle, but it would have to be done for common-sense reasons and at the right time. My hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) has just made a sensible point. Every part of the UK arguing for its own small bit of devolution would not provide a joined-up solution or a common-sense approach to growing the economy; it would be unhelpful.
Will the Minister tell us whether, having listened to the debate tonight, she is minded to look again at the matter, given that the review produced no change? Perhaps she could look into the matter, taking into account the points that have been raised not only about Scotland and Wales—vital though they are—but about other parts of England.