“economically destructive. They make it harder for businesses in the regions to recruit workers at competitive wage rates and as a consequence they stifle enterprise.”
That is not what individual businesses, whether small or large, in my constituency and elsewhere in the north-east are saying to me, however.
This Government, like previous Governments in 2003 and 2007, are right to look at all potential options for boosting growth, and I have no difficulty with them referring the matter for consideration by the pay review body, but ultimately this will not find business support or create the prospect of business growth in the regions that we represent, and we should not support it if it becomes Government policy.
The majority of public sector workers in my region are doing their bit already. They are hard working, and along with the vast majority of my constituents they accept that the Government are right to reduce the deficit, to cut public sector spending, to reform public sector pensions, to freeze pay in some areas and to eradicate some of the non-jobs and excesses that we saw before 2010. That is accepted.
David Mowat: I agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend’s remarks. He cited the phrase “economically destructive”, but does he agree that what is also economically destructive is average public spending per head in London being 15% higher than in the north-west, and that if we wish to tackle the issue under discussion that would be a place to start?
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Guy Opperman: I understand what my hon. Friend says and, to a degree, endorse it, but I do not accept that regional pay will be agreed to or supported by the public sector workers who are already experiencing their fair share of the problems that we all have to deal with.
What public sector workers and businesses want is continued investment in manufacturing, something that fell—effectively halved—under the previous Government; the groundbreaking reform of, and improvements to, our schools, and investment in the next generation; continued Government support for apprenticeships, the number of which in my constituency has doubled over the past year; and the maintenance of the Government’s focus on boosting exports, all of which are happening and making a difference to the regional economy.
I have always said that I will put the north-east first, and defending the pay and conditions of public sector workers in this economic climate is just as important as, if not more important than, building up the private sector. I do not deny that I come to this debate with strong opinions on what is economically right, but on this issue I have engaged with union leaders, businesses and local people, and others would be well advised so to do.
We need to be a one-nation coalition, and our focus should not shine too brightly on London and the south-east. We should represent all the people in our constituencies, from the dinner lady to the gentleman who employs 200 people; it is not an exclusive, either/or matter. On this issue, I look forward to the forthcoming visit to the north-east of The Daily Telegraph, which will doubtless come to question many businesses in my constituency.
I make it clear that I do not particularly support the policy under discussion, but I take no pleasure in these debates. This issue is too important to play politics with, so I hope that my friends on the Opposition Benches will spend more time with me, and with their union colleagues, making the case as to why regional pay is wrong, rather than trying to score cheap political points. This is about people’s jobs and pay packets, and I refuse to play any political games with those.
I will not, however, support the Government today, and if this matter were ever put forward as part of Government business, I would not support it.
5.58 pm
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Make no mistake, Madam Deputy Speaker, the proposals for regional pay represent a naked ideological assault on public services and on public service workers. In my constituency, 11,800 people are employed in the public sector, representing more than 26% of its work force. Throughout Derby, 25,000-plus are employed in the public sector, and this is yet another example of the fact that this Government represent and stand up for the rich elite in our country, a Government who are prepared to give tax cuts to millionaires while forcing pay cuts on public sector workers.
I know from what Ministers have said that they want to weaken collective bargaining, but that makes no sense. It would be a wasteful approach to go down the road of regional pay because of all the duplication that would be necessary as a consequence of not having national pay bargaining regimes. It makes no economic
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sense either. Government Members have said that they see the economic recovery as being private sector led, but that ignores the symbiotic relationship between the public and private sectors. If huge demand is taken out of a local economy, that is bound to have knock-on implications for the private sector. This is a self-defeating proposition, because a private sector-led recovery will not be helped by attacking public service workers and undermining their salaries.
I am reading a book by Paul Krugman, a Nobel prize winner for economics, in which he says:
“disasters do happen; history is replete with floods and famines, earthquakes and tsunamis. What makes this disaster”—
the economic crisis that we are living through—
“so terrible—what should make you angry—is that none of this need be happening. There has been no plague of locusts; we have not lost our technological know-how; America and Europe should be richer, not poorer, than they were five years ago.
Nor is the nature of the disaster mysterious. In the Great Depression leaders had an excuse: nobody really understood what was happening or how to fix it. Today’s leaders don’t have that excuse. We have both the knowledge and the tools to end this suffering.”
I have not finished reading the book, but as far as I can see, he clearly does not recommend regional pay as a way of economic salvation.
I know that Government Members revel in the sobriquet, “Thatcher’s children”. However, back in 1993, when John Major was Prime Minister, the Government of the day considered regional pay but saw sense when the Treasury obtained an advice note about the proposition that said:
“At the extreme, local pay in theory could mean devolving pay…to local bodies. In practice, extremely devolved arrangements are not desirable. There are risks of workers being treated differently for no good reason. There could be dangers of leapfrogging and parts of the public sector competing against each other for the best staff.”
Do we really want a situation where a hospital such as Queen’s medical centre, down the road in my constituency, is competing for staff with the Royal Derby? I do not think so.
Over the past few weeks this Government have developed a penchant for U-turns. I would very much welcome a U-turn on this policy, which will be utterly counter-productive and undermine morale in public services, which has already been terribly undermined by the Government’s economically disastrous policies. It simply will not work. I say this to the Government: listen to Paul Krugman and other eminent economists, do a U-turn, and abandon these ridiculous proposals for regional pay.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. To ensure that more Members are able to participate in the debate, the time limit is being reduced to four minutes as from now. I call Jacob Rees-Mogg.
6.3 pm
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry that you reduced the time limit just before I got up to speak; I will not take it personally.
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We have heard that there is no evidence of crowding out, so I thought that I would provide some from Brian Groom’s column in the Financial Times this week. To be fair, I will give both sides of the evidence that he cites, which comes from a man called Henry Overman of the London School of Economics, who found that
“in 2003-07, each extra 100 jobs in the local authority spurred the creation of 50 additional jobs in private sector services, but destroyed 40 jobs in manufacturing.”
Over the longer period of 1999-2007, however, he found that the 100 extra jobs in the local authority destroyed 80 jobs in manufacturing and did not produce any net increase overall through jobs and services. The focus on public service jobs is destroying private sector jobs. I urge Her Majesty’s Government to go much further and to abolish national pay bargaining altogether.
Ian Swales: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I am glad to be giving him an extra minute to speak. We are all familiar with the phenomenon of people connecting two disparate sets of statistics. Can he think of a mechanism by which adding 100 local authority jobs would destroy 80 jobs in manufacturing?
Jacob Rees-Mogg: The reason increased employment in the public sector destroys jobs in the private sector is that every public sector job has to be paid for by the private sector. The public sector creates no wealth. It spends wealth that is taxed from the private sector. If it does not come from tax immediately, it comes from delayed taxation through borrowing. That is the connection. Increasing employment in the public sector increases the burden on the private sector and destroys the ability of the private sector to compete globally.
Andrew Percy: I usually agree with my hon. Friend, but will he explain why a schoolteacher in Hull or Grimsby, who faces some of the most challenging schoolchildren in the country and even more challenging parents, should be paid less than a schoolteacher doing exactly the same job elsewhere in the country? That is the problem that my constituents have with this proposal.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes a mistake in assuming that the policy will automatically lead to lower pay. Pay will be set by market forces. If it was difficult to employ schoolteachers in his constituency, teachers in that area would have to be paid more than the market rate until it had the required number of teachers.
Andrew Percy: There is not a bigger pot of money.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: Of course there is not a bigger pot of money, but if we allow competition to work, it will increase the local economy, which means that more money will be gathered in through council tax and the area will have the ability to pay more for the public sector that it needs.
The problem with what we are doing at the moment is that it impoverishes the poor. It keeps the poorest areas of the country poor for as long as possible. I know that Opposition Members and some of my hon. Friends are in favour of the current situation not because they want to keep the poorest areas poor, but for the most noble and romantic of motives. However, their noble approach to this issue is fundamentally wrong. They think that it is fair to ensure that everybody is paid the same, but if
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by doing that we destroy employment in certain areas and make more people dependent on the state, we are not acting in the broader interests of society.
David Mowat: My hon. Friend’s analysis would be 100% right if there were proof that higher public sector pay was crowding out private sector growth. I have not heard that argument being made.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: I gave a little bit of the evidence earlier, but it is the basic logic of economics that if there is a limited supply of labour and a high price is set for that labour in the public sector, it will be forced into the public sector rather than being available for the private sector.
If we set high wage rates for the public sector in the poorest areas of the country, the most able people will be attracted to the public sector, leaving them unavailable for the private sector, and it will set at an unaffordable level the rate that the private sector must pay to compete. The private sector will therefore move down to the south of England, where it is closer to so much other economic activity. If we want to create employment in areas of high unemployment, we have to make it attractive. It therefore has to be cheap. Otherwise, the magnetic pull of London and the region around it pulls employment down here. Those who really care about creating employment in impoverished areas should be in favour of getting rid of national pay bargaining.
National pay bargaining not only gets rid of competitiveness for the private sector, but pushes up all prices in the area. If there are highly paid public servants in poor areas of the country, the costs of housing and services are pushed up. The money that is spent by those people forces up prices and makes it increasingly difficult for the private sector to compete. That is the basic, unassailable logic of economics, and it will not be overcome by the mush of sentimentalism of those who think it is simply unfair to pay people different amounts. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) said, we accept that principle in other areas, such as with the London weighting. We need to go much further so that every school and every hospital decides the pay rates that it will give its employees. We should make it as local as it possibly can be, and in that way we will allow the private sector to flourish and bloom, the economy to grow and our overall situation to improve enormously.
6.10 pm
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): It was extremely interesting to hear the contributions of the hon. Members for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). All that I can say is that there is room for them on the Labour Benches should they wish to come across. We even have our own private section should they wish to make progress.
Tomorrow, the House will pay tribute to Aung San Suu Kyi, and no doubt Ministers and Government Members will be pushing forward to get their pictures taken with her for their press releases. They should remember what she has stood for—fairness for workers, regardless of their social background or where they come from. When Members are speaking to her tomorrow, perhaps they will remember that.
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Any sensible, decent Government have a responsibility to promote fair employment, and that cannot be done by paying nurses, teachers, jobcentre staff and so on less to work in poorer parts of the country. Indeed, regional or local pay could mean two workers with the same skills and experience being paid differently in two different places even though they were doing the same job. It could worsen inequalities between regions by making it difficult to attract and retain skilled public sector workers in low-pay regions.
Local or regional pay could also work against equal pay. The gender pay gap is smaller in the public sector than in the private sector, and great progress has been made towards promoting equal pay through measures such as “Agenda for Change”.
Perhaps the Economic Secretary could answer a practical question. If an employee of the Ministry of Defence worked as a civil servant or engineer at Faslane and then was transferred to Portsmouth, would their pay vary accordingly either up or down? Who would pick up the administration costs if that were to happen?
The other major concern that people have is about the minimum wage. The Minister for the Cabinet Office has sought to reassure the House that regional pay will not have an impact on the minimum wage, but we have to remember that there are still Government Members arguing that there should be exemptions from the minimum wage. I am sure that there are a number of unscrupulous employers who will see regional pay as an opportunity to undercut people’s wages and exempt them from the minimum wage legislation.
The case for regional pay is not even backed up by evidence. I have spoken to a number of local employers in my patch, and, in the nearly 10 years I have been here, I have never had one employer come forward to say that the reason they have difficulties employing people is the lack of regional pay. That is a non-starter, so regional pay is not evidence-based at all. Perhaps the Economic Secretary will explain exactly where the evidence has come from.
I know that time is short and other Members want to speak, but I want to say in the nicest possible way to my colleague from the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), that nice person though she is, if the SNP’s ambition and aspiration is to pay a higher minimum wage in Scotland, it has had the opportunity to do so during the time it has been in government. Unfortunately, it has chosen not to do that. It therefore remains an aspiration, because the SNP has not implemented it. The few local authorities that have implemented it have had their budgets cut, which shows exactly what it is all about for the SNP. It does not care for the workers, it does not work for the workers and it very seldom turns up for the workers.
6.14 pm
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con):
Our country’s human capital is becoming more vital to our growth and there is an increasing return to skills in jobs across the world. To have a flexible modern economy, it is vital we have a functional labour market in which there are clear signals about what skills we need and
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where we need them. The idea, in this day and age, that we can have a one-size-fits-all deal for all locations and all performances across the country is wrong.
We face growing international competition—interestingly, Opposition Members made no mention of what is going on around the world and the competitive pressures we face. Countries such as China, Brazil and India are developing highly skilled people, and the UK’s labour force is already 11% less productive than the G7 average. Western competitors such as Canada, Germany and Sweden are reforming their labour markets. In the 1990s, Sweden abolished national pay scales and gave everybody individual contracts. Salaries in professions that were short of supply rose, so kindergarten teachers’ and tax inspectors’ salaries went up. That did not happen overnight, but the change allowed for the adjustment. Places could get the workers they needed with the skills they needed. The contracts were supported by the unions, even though they had trepidations at first. Once individual contracts were in place, the unions acknowledged that they were a good thing.
There have been extensive labour market reforms in Germany, including the introduction of mini and midi-jobs and exempting small companies from labour regulations. Huge labour market reforms and a highly devolved system of wage bargaining were introduced in Canada in the mid-1990s.
Countries such as Sweden and Canada are not pay-the-bottom-price countries, but countries with highly skilled and flexible labour forces. That is what this country should aim for, rather than a one-size-fits-all model. Under the previous Government, there was greater centralisation, with the exception of academies. There was a national agreement on teachers’ pay and conditions in 2003, which made it much more difficult for schools to organise their work forces. The GP contracts signed in 2004 were disastrous. Such national pay bargaining has made our country’s labour force inefficient and damaged regional economies.
We have skill shortages in key professions. Schools in my constituency struggle to recruit maths teachers. They are subject to national pay scales, so they cannot pay the extra money they need to pay to get the teacher into the school. Therefore, students in my constituency lose out on vital education that they would have were the school allowed to change the wage scales.
My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) made a good point about the private sector being crowded out. Paying people over the odds of their market wages in places where we could get better value for money is not the best use of public money. The money is not free; it comes from hard-working people who pay their taxes.
Mr Burley: Does my hon. Friend agree that paying people above what is necessary to retain and recruit them is economically inefficient, and that more public sector workers could be employed in her constituency with the same pot of money if people could be paid less?
Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Opposition Members do not acknowledge that this country’s unemployment rates are higher compared with countries that have taken action and reformed their labour markets, such as Germany. Those countries have reduced the differentials between different areas.
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Jim Sheridan: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Elizabeth Truss: I want to continue because we have only a limited amount of time in the debate.
The Government need to be bold in their approach. We need to move from national wage bargaining to individual contracts, as Sweden did. That change was well received by the unions and public sector workers. We need to move to flexi-jobs, similar to German mini and midi-jobs, which have reduced unemployment by half since 2005. We need seriously to look at exempting small businesses with under 10 workers from some dismissal regulations, as Germany did—the change reduced unemployment. The time to take bold action is now.
6.19 pm
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): In the short time available, I want to talk about regional pay in Wales and my constituency.
Over recent weeks, we have been led to believe that the coalition is cooling on the idea of regional pay and that we might be heading for another U-turn. I hope so, but I welcome the chance to reiterate just how unfair, divisive and damaging such proposals would be for constituencies such as mine. If there is to be a change of heart, the message clearly has not got through to the Wales Office, which this morning mounted a valiant defence of regional pay in the Welsh Grand Committee, although the Secretary of State for Wales told us off for calling it regional pay; she said we should call it “local market-facing pay”—she had obviously read the crib sheet. Having listened to the Minister’s definition, which was as clear as mud, I am none the wiser.
Whatever it is called, it is fair to assume that it would not be good news for public sector workers. The direction of travel is clearly downwards. The First Minister for Wales, Carwyn Jones, was spot on when he said it was code for cutting pay in Wales. Wales has 399,000 public sector employees, but the Secretary of State admitted this morning that she would not be fighting their corner on this issue, despite the fact that her party opposes it in the Welsh Assembly—in fact, all parties in the Welsh Assembly are united in opposition to it.
Let us not forget that these are nurses, teachers and police officers who already face two years of pay freezes and job cuts and who will have to endure a further pay cut of 1%, not to mention the Government’s pension reforms.
Jessica Morden: We are pushed for time, and if I give way, I will prevent someone else from getting in, so I will kindly say no.
We have had 9,000 public sector job cuts in Wales, and there are 39,000 more to come, according to the TUC. The stock argument for the Government’s proposal is that it would allow the private sector to grow by enabling it to compete with the public sector for staff. This is clearly nonsense in constituencies such as mine, where any move on regional pay would hurt the economy, including the private sector.
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Jessica Morden: I will give way to my hon. Friend, because he will not get a chance to make a speech, whereas the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) has already spoken.
Phil Wilson: I hope that the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) understands that Opposition Members know about globalisation and its effect on the private sector. Hitachi, a big global company, is coming to the north-east of England, but it is not considering local pay; it is considering sectoral pay rates and skills, and looking across the train-building industry. It is not looking locally.
Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am sorry he has not had a chance to make his contribution. He is exactly right.
The TUC has estimated that a 1% reduction in public sector pay could result in £97 million being taken out of the Welsh economy. In constituencies such as mine, the public and private sectors are inextricably linked, and money taken out of the public sector hurts the private sector. Members should not just take our word for it; over the past few weeks, the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales has come out in opposition to regional pay. We saw this firsthand in Newport, when the Government were forced to concede over closing Newport passport office with the possible loss of 300 jobs. The Government conceded then that the closure would have a huge impact on our local economy, and many small local businesses were right at the heart of the campaign to keep the passport office open, because they knew full well that their livelihoods depended on it.
There are 23,000 public sector workers in Newport. It has a lot of public sector jobs precisely because of the previous Government’s policy, following the Lyons review, of moving jobs from the south-east to rebalance the economy. As a result, our major employers, as well as the NHS and the local authority, are the Office for National Statistics, the Prison Service and the Intellectual Property Office, to name but a few. This has been a boost to our city and is a real success story. As an ONS worker said to me recently, however, does paying him less mean that the private sector in Newport will suddenly be clamouring for statisticians? We both thought not.
Of course, regional pay is plain unfair. I have a border constituency. If I have two teachers in my constituency, one working in Caldicot, the other in Bristol, with the same skills and experience but paid differently, that is clearly unfair. Let us remember that these people are not hugely well paid—they are often on wages of about £20,000—and would find it difficult to move jobs if this measure was implemented.
Finally, comparing private and public sector pay is not comparing like with like. There are more people with higher qualifications in the public sector than in the private sector, and women, who make up 64% of the public sector work force in Wales and 87% of part-time workers, have very much benefited from the previous Government’s efforts on equal pay. I ask the Government please not to target these women and roll back progress on them. Regional pay, local market-facing pay, or whatever the Government want to call it, will be a race to the bottom on lower pay, and create higher unemployment and more business failures. It is a real pity that we do not have a Secretary of State for Wales willing to stand up and say that.
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I have eight Members to call and about 16 minutes left.
6.24 pm
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I have struggled with two things during this debate. The first is finding anything that the Minister said earlier that I agreed with; the second is finding anything that the Opposition spokesperson said that I did not agree with. However, you will be pleased to know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I have managed to resolve both struggles. I do not think it fair or right for our Opposition colleagues, however passionately they care about the issue, to be opportunistic in their pursuit of it. I also found two things that the Minister said that I agree with. First, I am pleased that the Government are clear that no decision has been taken yet on this issue. The second thing I welcome is the fact that any decision the Government take will be evidence-based. Like other hon. colleagues, speaking from all parts of the House today, I am sure that when the evidence is in and the process is complete, it will show that the proposal is not one that the Government should go forward with.
I would welcome local pay bargaining and regional pay if it meant that we were able to pay the hard-working nurses, firemen and policemen in my constituency more money. The reality, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) said, is that there is no extra money around. We know from what the Minister said earlier that this proposal is not a revenue-saving measure. There would have to be a redistributive effect, using what is in the current pot. That means that there would be some winners, often in areas that are already wealthy, and some losers, principally in communities and constituencies such as mine.
Cornwall is one of only four parts of our country that qualify for poverty-related grants from the European Union. My constituents face many significant challenges already, with the decline of traditional industries, high housing costs, high water costs, high fuel costs, a lack of opportunity and too few skilled jobs. It is sad to think that the 57,000 public sector workers in Cornwall could be facing another challenge. These people are valued in our community, and I will not let Members from any part of this House play one part of our community off against another. We must not let this debate come down to a division between the public and the private sectors. For a healthy community we need both, and we need them to be working in tandem.
I do not often disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley), but I fear that if we went forward with this proposal, we would see a race to the bottom in Cornwall. That is why I will not support the Government this evening. Indeed, the public sector in Cornwall offers some of the fairest pay available. With five people chasing every job, introducing local pay, regional pay or local market-facing pay—or whatever we are calling it this evening—could, I fear, have not only a damaging effect on our hard-working public servants, but a deleterious effect on the local economy. As my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) said earlier, some people have suggested that as much as £1.7 billion could be lost from the poorest parts of our communities. The money lost
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would be money that would otherwise have gone into the private businesses that we are also keen to see thriving on our high streets, thereby making recovery and growth in our economy still harder.
I hope that the Minister will be able to shed some light on this point in her closing remarks, but I cannot see how moving to local, regional or local market-facing pay could be less bureaucratic and burdensome than the current arrangements. It seems to me a statement of the obvious that moving to such a system would be more complicated and harder to introduce.
The ramifications of the proposed change for Cornwall are great, and I will oppose it every step of the way.
6.28 pm
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): As with so much of what this Government are doing, the proposal that we are discussing is tainted by their incompetence and their inability to think things through and fully understand—or, indeed, accept—the perverse outcomes that will result. We have seen it with council tax benefit, housing benefit changes and the rushed strategic defence and security review.
Despite the view commonly held, the south-west has serious poverty. There was a reason why Cornwall had objective 1 status and is a convergence area. Plymouth had the poorest ward in the country in the 1990s. We may not have the dark satanic mills of the north, but there are certainly massive disparities in wealth, which will be further exacerbated should this proposal be rolled out nationally.
The Minister mentioned the previous Government’s consideration of differential pay rates. Indeed, the coalition seems to be clinging to that argument and using it as a security blanket, an excuse for its attempt to take this proposal further. The idea was not extended beyond the Court Service, and there are clearly good reasons for that.
Mr Burley: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Alison Seabeck: No, sit down. You’ve had your opportunity.
There are other historical examples of this policy. In the 1990s, the Conservative Government asked the NHS to look into the subject, but after a year’s work, it could find only a 0.1% variation between the regions. That was not the best way for the NHS to spend its time and money.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Alison Seabeck: Yes, of course.
Gemma Doyle: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Some Members have had longer to speak in the debate than others. Like her, I am outraged by the suggestion that my constituents should be paid less for doing their job than those in other areas. Does she agree that, if nationalist Members were to get their way, they would achieve overnight what the Tories and Lib Dems are seeking, because public sector workers in a separate Scotland would have no guarantees whatever on their wages?
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Alison Seabeck: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. She is not going to have an opportunity to make a speech, owing to time constraints, but I am sure that the Scottish people will have heard her comment.
Median pay in the south-west is already £14 a week less than the national average. Many of the public sector workers there have also been the subject of pay freezes, pay caps or pension contribution increases, all of which have reduced their spending power. Plymouth is a city that is heavily dependent on the public sector; the hospital is the largest employer. There is real concern there about the damage that a decision to reduce wage levels in the region, or locally, could have on an economy that is just about keeping its head above water.
Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): We have heard a lot about the private sector from Government Members, but does my hon. Friend believe that it would be instructive to note that many large national private sector employers have pay bargaining practices that are not dissimilar to those of the public sector?
Alison Seabeck: Indeed; I shall touch on that point briefly later.
More than 18,000 people in Plymouth work in the public sector. In my constituency, a massive 25% of the working population do so—one in four people—and to dampen pay rates could be devastating. The Government’s suggestion that it is easy to compare private sector and public sector jobs is absolute nonsense. In the south-west, large swathes of people work in the hospitality and agriculture sectors, earning very low wages. There is no simple read-across, and I would ask the Government to consider that fact carefully.
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Will the hon. Lady give way?
Alison Seabeck: No, I am afraid that I cannot. Perhaps one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues will allow him to intervene on them later.
In his autumn statement, the Chancellor talked about private sector pay being set in accordance with local labour markets. That is not true. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has just pointed out, some of the most successful companies in the country, including large retailers, banks and telecoms companies, use similar national pay structures.
There is genuine concern among businesses in my constituency that any decision to cap or lower public sector pay will lead to problems for them, in that there will be less demand for their goods and services as families pull in their horns.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Alison Seabeck: I am afraid not; my hon. Friend has only just arrived in the Chamber.
A representative of one business has commented to me:
“As I see it, the lot in power have proved that they don’t get reality.”
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Because the south-west is very beautiful, we have a large number of second homes. They push the cost of housing up to levels on a par with those in the south-east, but our salaries are lower and so the mortgage multiplier for our potential homeowners is astronomical. That can be crippling for people desperate for a home; the effect is felt not only in Plymouth but in the rural south-west. That point was well made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw).
In the South Hams, the house price to income ratio is around 17:1. In the Cotswolds, it is even higher, at closer to 19:1, and those figures were taken at the depth of the recession in 2010. We should remember that many of the public sector workers who work in Plymouth and Exeter live in areas such as the South Hams. They might have struggled to get a mortgage on their dream home in better times, and they will be disproportionately hit by this Government’s proposals on regional pay. The housing market will not allow them to sell their home and move—I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) was going to make this point— particularly when new affordable homes are not being built. What are those people to do, when their pay is either cut or frozen and meeting their mortgage payments becomes increasingly difficult? They will stop spending in local shops, hotels and pubs, and on entertainment. That will provide a direct hit on the local economy.
This was a complex matter for the NHS to consider all those years ago, and I urge the Government to be aware of the complexity of boundaries and of the additional costs involved in the work required to ensure that the proposal is consistent and does not lead to poaching or leapfrogging. They are on a hiding to nothing on this one; it will create anomalies and provide yet another example of their incompetence. Every time this happens, however, it is not the Chancellor or the Paymaster General and his mates who are affected, but low-paid working people such as teachers, nurses and midwives.
6.35 pm
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I come to this debate with a question mark over whether I can support this policy. I share my doubts with many Conservative Welsh Assembly Members. However, I shall not support the Labour motion today, as it is, to say the least, an example of double standards that is quite surprising even by this House’s standards. In common with the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden), I have spent most of today in the Welsh Grand Committee, where we discussed regional pay for a long time. I found the comments of the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who is not in his place, quite surprising. He was vocal in his criticism of the concept of regional pay, yet when he was a Minister in the previous Labour Government, of course, he was responsible for bringing in regional pay in the courts service.
When I debated the matter with the new shadow Secretary of State for Wales on Radio Wales, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) said that what was done to the court service was not regional pay, but zonal pay. Zonal pay is clearly acceptable to the Labour party, but not regional pay. It should be noted that the five levels of zonal pay within the service vary by 23% for people doing the same work. I thus find the Labour
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party’s comments and its anger on this issue surprising, given that it introduced this proposal for the service in 2007. What is more, the Labour Government did the same for Department for Work and Pensions staff back in 2003. That is why I am surprised that Labour Members view these proposals with such horror.
When the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) calls on the Government to make a U-turn, I am absolutely staggered. How can a Government make a U-turn on a proposal to consult and to do some research? I would have thought that Members would be proud of a Government who say, “Before we enact a policy, we will do the research and ensure that we come to the table with the facts.” If those facts show a strong argument for changing the current situation, that argument can be made, but to say no to doing the research is, to say the least, extremely surprising.
Other comments made in the debate are worth mentioning. I listened very carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) and I was quite taken by his passionate argument in favour of localised pay. The key question I would ask is this. I have a constituency that depends fairly significantly on the public sector, but one that also has a comparatively low-paid economy in respect of the tourism sector. My concern is the fact that we have open borders for the movement of workers from across the European Union and that what has tended to happen in my constituency is that comparatively low-paid jobs have been filled by people from other parts of Europe who are willing to come into this country to work. I question whether, with those open borders, the expected effect of having a more local pay bargaining structure would work as my hon. Friend envisaged. That is the question I have, but I am sure that the research we undertake will show whether that is the issue or not.
We have heard a lot in the debate about Labour Members’ concern for the lower-paid public sector workers, and I share it. My only question, as someone who sat on the Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee for several weeks and contributed to many of the debates on the welfare reform agenda, is how Labour Members can make so much capital in today’s debate about their support for lower-paid public sector workers, when they were more than happy to argue in debates about the benefits cap for a regional benefits payment structure. If they genuinely support people on lower salaries and lower incomes, I wonder why they did not defend the benefit recipients in my constituency when they were more than happy to defend union members who happen to work in the public sector.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I call Phil Wilson, who has one minute.
6.38 pm
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for that generous offer.
We have heard from Government Members that, on the one hand, we introduced regional pay, yet on the other hand that we have a one-size-fits-all system, making
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it either one or the other. As far as I am concerned, this is not about public sector versus private sector; it is about what is fair for people in whatever sector they happen to work in. Let us think about the situation in County Durham. Unemployment in Sedgefield has risen by nearly 25% in the last year, and the number of people out of work for more than six months has risen by 100%. Moreover, 120,000 households in County Durham will be hit by benefit changes which will take £151 million from the local economy. The average wage is £418 a week, which is well below the national average. Regional pay will not benefit local businesses, because there will no longer be any drive for people to buy anything that is manufactured or created in the area. As for the idea that there are no national pay schemes in the private sector, Tesco has one and so has Nissan. They will not be looking only at local pay rates; they will be looking at the sector in other parts of the country as well, and also at skills.
I believe that this proposal is ideologically driven, and that it makes no economic sense whatsoever. I agree with the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman). Early-day motion 55, which I sponsored, was signed by Members on both sides of the House, and it is clear that there is a great deal of cross-party opposition to the measure. I strongly urge the Government to withdraw it and to think about what is fair to not just the public sector but the private sector, because this measure will damage both sectors if it goes ahead.
6.41 pm
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): This has been a lively and revealing debate, in which Members on both sides of the House have made promising speeches. I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown), for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), for Derby North (Chris Williamson), for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan), for Newport East (Jessica Morden), for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), who spoke with commitment and determination. I shall refer to Government Members later in my speech.
The lines were clearly drawn in this interesting debate. I was reminded of my youth, when I listened to the great Thatcherites on the other side of the Chamber. So much for detoxification: the Thatcherites are back in power, revealing that the main purpose of this policy is to drive down the wages of public sector workers throughout the United Kingdom.
Mr Donohoe: In an intervention I said that Whitleyism was a good thing. I did not realise that John Whitley was one of the predecessors of Mr Speaker in this august body and a Liberal Member of Parliament, and was responsible for the introduction of national wage negotiation. Does my hon. Friend not think that he was right?
Margaret Curran: I thank my hon. Friend for, as ever, making a stunning intervention.
The debate has another Scottish dimension. It is very disappointing that only one Scottish National party Member is present. The point was made earlier that the fastest way to break up national pay bargaining in the United Kingdom is to break up the United Kingdom, and that should be remembered.
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Dr Whiteford: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Margaret Curran: Very briefly.
Dr Whiteford: We heard this afternoon that the idea of regional pay was first mooted by a Labour Chancellor, the hon. Lady’s friend the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who, as others have noted, is not present. It is a particular kind of brass neck to rewrite history quite so blatantly.
Margaret Curran: While we are on the subject of party leaders, perhaps the hon. Lady, who is a member of the SNP, will tell us why the First Minister of Scotland is very clear about the levels of corporation tax that will be paid in Scotland and what banks will pay, but never seems to be able to tell us what the level of public pay in Scotland will be. Is it not time that the SNP was clear about that?
The debate has also featured the now predictable undermining of Government policy by the Liberal Democrats—or so it would seem from the outside. We must ask ourselves exactly what is going on in this Government. We have omnishambles and U-turns, splits in briefings, and the announcement of a policy one day only for it to be questioned minutes later. The shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I both have the pleasure of shadowing Liberal Democrat Ministers, both of them Scottish at that, but where are they today?
I have been in the House for only a short time, but I have learnt one thing. When the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General is at the Dispatch Box, it is a clear sign that the Government are in trouble , so we have to ask ourselves why the Lib Dems are not prepared to do their job by coming to the Chamber and defending this Government—are they off the hook just because they are Lib Dems?
Mike Freer: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Margaret Curran: I do not have time.
To be fair, the disagreements over the Government’s approach are not just between Lib Dems and Tories; there are also differences within the Tory party itself, as was made clear by the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), in what was a powerful and sincere contribution.
In a recent vote in the Welsh Assembly, the Tories voted against regional pay and pointed out the damage they thought it would do in Wales. Tory Finance spokesperson Paul Davies stated:
“As a group, we have not seen any evidence at all of the benefits of introducing a regional pay system in the United Kingdom.”
In the now-infamous Budget, the Chancellor clearly signalled support for the break-up of the national pay negotiating machinery. Have we now reached a stage where the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot command support among the Tories in the Chamber, or, indeed, the country?
As we have heard in this debate, there are grave concerns about the real purpose behind the Chancellor’s comments. As many Members have said, it appears that the Government wish to deliver a cut in the cost of public sector employment on the dubious premise that it will produce a private sector recovery and economic growth throughout the UK.
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Mel Stride: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Margaret Curran: I do not have time.
As has been pointed out in the debate, the Government have not produced a shred of evidence that a pay bargaining free-for-all would increase the number of private sector jobs, deliver more vibrant local economies or open up access to jobs or opportunities. In fact, the chief economist of the Welsh Government recently demonstrated that age and gender can be as significant factors as local geography, and that if we were to address regional pay differences, we would need to introduce disproportionate changes and reduce the pay of low-paid women. So much for the Tories embracing gender equality!
Perhaps we can hope that the Government will listen to the sensible calls that have been made on this, so that the U-turn on regional pay that has been hinted at becomes a reality. Perhaps the absence of the two Lib Dem Cabinet Ministers augurs well in that regard. The last thing we need in these very difficult times is to drive down wages even further based on the age-old fallacy that the public and private sectors are always to be in competition with each other.
The hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) implied that public sector workers do not have real jobs. That tells us all we need to know about Tory attitudes to police officers and teachers. I call on the Minister to dissociate herself from those comments.
The Opposition motion should be supported by all Members who do not want to exacerbate the north-south divide, who want to ensure that we maintain fairness in public sector pay, and who want to stand up for the interests of working people from Cardiff to Newcastle to Dundee. They should challenge this Government and support the Opposition motion.
6.48 pm
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith): This has been an interesting and lively debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) rightly disavowed a race to the bottom and instead seeks a race to reality. On the other hand, the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) thinks private sector rebalancing is dreamland. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) made a thoughtful, and personal, contribution. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) raised international examples in a very well-informed contribution. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) talked of the need for an evidence-based approach and eschewed opportunistic and divisive debate, hints of which we have heard this afternoon.
We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who referred to days that we shared on the Welfare Reform Bill and wondered why the Opposition did not support the idea of capping benefits. Perhaps they may tell us today why they favour regionalising benefits but not pay.
Let me talk about what this Government have done, as I wrap up this debate. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General said, this Government greatly value the work and dedication of public sector staff. However, at a time when private
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sector workers are living with falling wages and job uncertainty, and given the wider pressures we face on the public finances overall, there is a strong case for public sector pay bill restraint. This is why, at the autumn statement, we announced that public sector pay awards will average 1% for the two years following the end of the current public sector pay freeze.
It is also important to look at how public sector pay is set over the longer term. This is why, at the autumn statement, the Chancellor announced that there was a case for considering how local pay can better reflect private sector labour markets and invited the independent pay review bodies to consider the evidence. They will report back from July, and the Government will then consider their proposals. Nothing has yet been decided, and as my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office said, any proposals for each work force will need to be based on strong evidence.
However, it is clear that there is a case for looking at the issue. The pay review bodies have been asked to consider ways to recruit, retain and motivate suitably able and qualified staff across the UK.
Miss Smith: Perhaps the hon. Lady is going to tell me that she is not in favour of that.
Margaret Curran: Can we make it clear that I do not think the Chancellor was suggesting just that more research should be undertaken when he made his statement? Does the hon. Lady believe that a police officer in Hexham should be paid more or less than a police officer in Norwich?
Miss Smith: I will say, for the hon. Lady’s benefit, what I have already said: I look forward to the results of the research that the pay review bodies will be doing.
The gap between public and private sector pay varies significantly around the country, with the Institute for Fiscal Studies calculating a variation of up to 18%. That situation could needlessly limit the number of jobs, including perhaps those of police officers, that the public sector can support, and therefore the services that can be supplied. In addition, it could lead to unfair variations in the quality of public services through higher vacancy and turnover rates in some areas. Finally, it could also hurt the private sector, which often needs to compete for staff with the public sector. The CBI has said that it is essential to compete and that the Chancellor was right to ask for the exploration of the issue.
The need for pay levels that reflect local labour markets was of course recognised by the previous Government, when they took forward pay reform in the courts service. I will just dwell on that, because it has been discussed this afternoon. I suspect that the hon. Lady is not familiar with the fact that staff were given a choice about whether to opt in or out of that reform at that time, and the opt-in rate rose to 97% over 12 months. That is something to be welcomed. Let me jog memories further. The then Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), who is again not in his place, set out plans. He said that in our country
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“it makes sense to recognise that a more considered approach to local and regional conditions in pay offers the best modern route to full employment.”
Labour Members will wish to reflect on those words.
Jim Sheridan: May I remind the hon. Lady that the previous Government introduced the national minimum wage? Does she agree or disagree with the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), who seeks exemptions for employers to exclude people from the minimum wage?
Miss Smith: I agree with what my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office said earlier, which was that this Government and the Conservative party fully support the national minimum wage.
Miss Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman still think that we are all in dreamland when we seek to support the private sector?
Mr Brown: I have no doubts in my mind that some are. The hon. Lady says that the Conservative party supports the national minimum wage, but will she guarantee that it will not be frozen for years to come?
Miss Smith: If I tried to answer that question, I suspect that I would soon end up outside the scope of the debate. It is particularly important to note that we need to consider the evidence, which the Chancellor has asked for by asking the pay review bodies to consider the question. That evidence would come into the answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question.
Miss Smith: I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman should rest his foot, as I had to myself several months ago. I wish him well and a speedy recovery.
It is somewhat troubling that shadow Ministers have not been able to explain whether they think it is good for small businesses in their constituency that the public sector pays 7.5% more overall than the private sector. They have not been able to explain, as I have mentioned, why they favour regionalising benefits and not pay. Perhaps they will surprise us all and stand firm against attempts to appease the unions, wait for the pay review bodies’ reports and take a mature decision based on the evidence available. That is what this Government will do. We do not seek to cave in to those who have given around £15 million to the Labour party in recent times.
The introduction of local and market-facing pay could help poorer regions, which I know Members on both sides of the House would welcome. It could do that by providing more public sector jobs for the same level of investment and by helping the local private sector to become more competitive and to expand. Tonight’s debate should not be about regional pay, about ending national pay bargaining or about cutting anybody’s pay. The Government recognise that public sector pay is a complex issue that varies significantly between public sector work forces.
Margaret Curran: Will the Minister explain at what level market-facing pay would be set for a police officer?
Miss Smith:
The motion rests on a misrepresentation of the notion of regional or local, and the hon. Lady is attempting a second misrepresentation by bringing police
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officers in at this point, when the debate ought to be about the NHS and teachers, and the civil service where pay is under the control of central Government. She should know that.
Let me return to what the Government have done and complete my comments. The Government recognise that public sector pay is a complex issue that requires an evidential approach and varies significantly between public sector work forces. That is why we have asked the independent pay review bodies to consider the issue and why any decision will be based on the evidence. That is why we look forward to the outcome when the review bodies report next month.
Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.
The House divided:
Ayes 226, Noes 286.
[6.58 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Curran, Margaret
Danczuk, Simon
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gilmore, Sheila
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Phil Wilson and
Nic Dakin
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cable, rh Vince
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Huppert, Dr Julian
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mark Hunter and
Mr Shailesh Vara
Question accordingly negatived.
20 Jun 2012 : Column 980
20 Jun 2012 : Column 981
20 Jun 2012 : Column 982
20 Jun 2012 : Column 983
Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added.
The House divided:
Ayes 286, Noes 232.
[7.11 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cable, rh Vince
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Huppert, Dr Julian
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Mensch, Louise
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, Richard
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Percy, Andrew
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Walter, Mr Robert
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mark Hunter and
James Duddridge
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Curran, Margaret
Danczuk, Simon
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gilmore, Sheila
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Phil Wilson and
Nic Dakin
Question accordingly agreed to.
20 Jun 2012 : Column 984
20 Jun 2012 : Column 985
20 Jun 2012 : Column 986
The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)).
20 Jun 2012 : Column 987
That this House notes the importance of recruiting, retaining and motivating staff and keeping tight control of public spending; further notes that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, first proposed a fair framework for local and regional flexibility for pay in his statement to the House of 9 June 2003; supports the Government in asking the widely respected independent pay review bodies to consider how public sector pay can be made more responsive to local labour markets; and believes the Government is correct in awaiting the conclusions of those deliberations before making a decision on bringing forward proposals in respect of public sector pay.
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Electoral Registration Data Schemes Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 9 May, be approved.—(Michael Fabricant.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Notification Requirements) (England and Wales) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 5 March 2012, in the previous Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Michael Fabricant.)
The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 27 June (Standing Order No. 41A).
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Social Security (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 14 May, be approved.—(Michael Fabricant.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Sexual Offences Act 2003 (Remedial) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 March 2012, in the previous Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Michael Fabricant.)
The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 27 June (Standing Order No. 41A).
20 Jun 2012 : Column 988
Community Hospitals (North-East)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Michael Fabricant.)
7.25 pm
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): In December 2011, the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) told me:
“Local community hospitals provide a vital community resource to support patients in need of rehabilitation, recuperation and respite care”,
“a rapid return to independence and good health.”—[Official Report, 12 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 560W.]
It was a pleasant surprise to find myself agreeing with him. Unfortunately, community hospitals, especially those in my constituency and in the north-east, are facing ever more challenges.
Hospitals such as East Cleveland hospital and Guisborough hospital play an essential role in the communities that they serve. My constituents prefer and would ordinarily choose to receive care near their home and their family, whether it be palliative, minor injuries or maternity care. That is also the case elsewhere in the north-east and north Yorkshire, where my colleagues and local residents have been speaking out to protect and extend the services in their local community hospitals and district general hospitals, which are increasingly under threat.
Demographic change means that we are increasingly dealing with social care. Given that community hospitals tend to be truly local and cherished, and the need for health and social care to be seamlessly integrated, it should be painfully obvious that local community hospitals are able to provide effective liaison between NHS staff and local adult social services, especially when discussing arrangements for the discharge of elderly patients and their continued need for community-based care facilities and services. The Government are, at least nominally, following the previous Labour Government’s good example of recognising the importance of patient choice.
Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): The hon. Gentleman is giving a powerful speech that rightly highlights the importance of community hospitals. Does he, like me, regret the fact that more than 3,000 beds in community hospitals were closed by the last Labour Government? Does he recognise that only a huge campaign across this House made them see the error of their ways and reverse their savage cuts to this most vital of local assets?
Tom Blenkinsop: Any intervention in this debate must be put in the context of the fact that more than £600 million from my region is going to be relocated to the south-east. I know that, as a Yorkshire MP, the hon. Gentleman will be concerned about the news of the cuts to Yorkshire’s health care services that came out only today in The Northern Echo. We can talk about the whys and wherefores of that, but there is certainly a kernel of truth in it. Community hospitals and secondary hospitals, such as James Cook university hospital on the border of my constituency, are having to consolidate and centralise their services far more than has been the case before.
20 Jun 2012 : Column 989
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend and fellow Teesside MP on securing this debate. I know how hard he works on behalf of his constituents to secure access to the services that they need, particularly health services. Is he surprised that there will be more cuts, particularly in the light of the £50 million that it is costing to reorganise the NHS on Teesside?
Tom Blenkinsop: I am not surprised, to be honest. A couple of days ago, the Newcastle Journal reported that a freedom of information request had demonstrated that even after the NHS redundancies that we have seen, which I think cost approximately £60 million, a further 1,000 nurses are set to be cut in the north-east region.
The role of community hospitals is as important as ever. Despite the apparent importance of community hospitals, I fear for the future of hospitals such as those in Brotton and Guisborough in my constituency, the five other community hospitals of the South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, and the trust’s district general hospital, the Friarage, which is at the heart of the Foreign Secretary’s constituency. All those hospitals are seeing a reduction in services as a consequence of the Government’s health reforms and austerity package—whether the reduction of minor injuries provision, the closure of the Chaloner ward at Guisborough hospital or the downgrading of maternity and paediatric services at the Friarage, which even the Secretary of State has branded “unacceptable”.
Ultimately, communities, patients and employees recognise that only so many services can be cut before the future of the hospitals themselves is brought into question. They are concerned that the Government are failing to do anything whatever to prevent those reductions in services. [Interruption.] I give way to the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales).
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. May I suggest to the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) that if he wants to intervene, it is better if he actually stands up rather than waving his hand?
Ian Swales: Thank you for your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I congratulate my neighbouring MP, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), on securing this important debate. My daughter was born in Guisborough hospital in his constituency, but that would no longer be possible as the maternity unit closed in 2006. The withdrawal of services from older community hospitals, and the failure to put services into new community hospitals such as Redcar, are top-down decisions. Does he support more locally based commissioning driven by clinicians?
Tom Blenkinsop: I believe in an excellent quality of service, and yes, it was regrettable that the maternity unit at Guisborough hospital was closed. As the hon. Gentleman will know, my predecessor fought to save that service. In fact, there was a wide campaign by the local trust and all local politicians to keep it open. Unfortunately, more people opted to use the maternity services at James Cook hospital, which was part of the choice agenda that all parties believe in. I am sure the Minister does as well.
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Gentleman explain why some Members, when they are outside the House, support petitions to retain hospitals and community services, but in the House vote to stop them?
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I allowed the intervention, but I am not sure what the connection is between the north-east and Northern Ireland.
Tom Blenkinsop: The current Prime Minister, when he was Leader of the Opposition, identified Northern Ireland and the north-east as areas where the public service cuts should primarily take place. That is the similarity. Of course, the north-east leads all other regions in the United Kingdom on exports, so there was some smoke and mirrors in that argument. There are indeed a number of Members who are introducing petitions against the closure of health services, including a number who are in the Cabinet.
The centralisation process is well under way at Guisborough hospital, in my constituency, and that is just one example of what is happening across the north-east. The hospital has already been forced to operate a reduced service owing to staffing pressures, opening only from 9 am to 5 pm on weekdays and 8 am to 8 pm at weekends instead of the usual round-the-clock service.The Chaloner ward there is an eight-bed unit providing palliative, post-operative and respite care, with dedicated nursing care for a variety of medical conditions. There is also an out-patient suite and a minor injuries unit. Closing the Chaloner ward could eventually mean the end of the hospital. The maternity service has already been lost, and closing the ward would leave only a residual out-patient service and the Priory ward on the site. East Cleveland hospital, in the Brotton area of my constituency, offers even more limited services than Guisborough, and I have often spoken to constituents who have been forced to seek treatment elsewhere.
My main concern is that hospitals such as Guisborough and Brotton will become marginalised owing to a continuous reduction of funding from South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, as more and more services are consolidated at James Cook university hospital. It takes nearly an hour to reach that hospital by bus from Guisborough, and even longer from the more rural parts of my constituency—and that is under the very generous assumption that such bus services will still be available.
It may be politically expedient for some to argue that such decisions are solely the responsibility of the relevant trust and are somehow detached from being the responsibility of central Government, but they are unfortunately a worrying national trend. No one trust can take the blame, and the scrutiny must instead be of the Government who force them into such a position. For example, I have read that in Sutton,
“a cloud has gathered over St Helier”
district general hospital, where accident and emergency services are under threat, to such an extent that the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam, has started a petition against the closure in his own constituency, despite the fact that it seems to be part of a broader pattern that is perhaps caused by his own Department’s policies.
20 Jun 2012 : Column 991
Given all the campaigns that are emerging throughout the country to save services at local hospitals, I find myself asking why there seems to be such a decline in the provision of services. Despite the Government’s localism agenda, it appears that services are becoming more centralised to larger hospitals, leaving community hospitals with empty beds and abandoned wards.
Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the consolidation of acute and emergency services, and the reconfiguration of services in the north-east and across the country, are about not just the cuts and austerity to which he refers—I do not agree with him on that—but the changes in how health care is provided? Does he also agree that the community hospitals that he seeks to support are best placed to deliver chronic care, not acute care?
Tom Blenkinsop: There is an element of truth in what the hon. Gentleman says, but I will come to that when I make suggestions. Community hospitals have a role as part of an overall package, but I have seen an erosion of those services in my locality. The reason I have introduced this debate is that a pattern is emerging in the north-east and across the country in how services are allocated by trusts.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I applaud the fact that the hon. Gentleman has introduced this debate on behalf of north-east community hospitals. I want to address the issue of the quality of the service provided by them. We retain maternity services in Hexham. The service is so popular that Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust has said that it is hopeful that more women will choose to have their babies there. Does he agree that that is an example of a community hospital going forward?
Tom Blenkinsop: I praise the hon. Gentleman—it sounds like the services in his constituency are going forward and doing very well—but I am addressing the broader pattern in my local area and elsewhere. Some worrying trends are a symptom of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which I opposed vociferously—that is on the record.
The future of community hospitals is being plunged into uncertainty because of the 2012 Act. With responsibility for commissioning health care services now falling to clinical commissioning groups, and with primary care trusts being axed, centralisation is a real temptation both for the CCGs and for the foundation trusts that have taken over responsibility for the management of primary care hospitals in Teesside.
Another future scenario for community hospitals is the possibility of privatisation. As cuts are made, commissioning groups could look outside the NHS to provide their services. That happened in Suffolk in March, where Serco won a £140 million contract to manage, among other things, the area’s community hospitals. Neither the public, who cherish their NHS, nor workers, want that, and there is a concern that such deals are made solely to save money and not necessarily to improve patient care. In the north-east, where health inequalities are most pronounced, such moves could lead to a significant decrease in the quality of service
20 Jun 2012 : Column 992
offered, and to a loss of any long-term strategic vision that might exist to tackle such deeply ingrained public health problems.
When I challenged the Prime Minister about the future of community hospitals and district general hospitals at Prime Minister’s questions last week, all he did was cite a supposed increase in funding to the “primary care trust” in my constituency—he is so oblivious and out of touch that he failed to realise there are, in fact, two primary care trusts: NHS Redcar and Cleveland, and NHS Middlesbrough.
Regardless of what spin the Government put on the state of the NHS, it is clear that the NHS throughout the country is struggling financially. In GP magazine earlier this week, research collected through a series of Freedom of Information Act requests showed that nine out of 10 trusts find themselves “rationing” care such as cataract surgery and knee and hip operations. If trusts have to do that, there is clearly an issue with funding, despite the Government’s assertions, especially when trusts such as Redcar and Cleveland have to spend tens of millions of pounds to deal with the consequences of the 2012 Act.
I worry that many trusts, when faced with the real possibility of having to reduce clinical services, will turn towards centralising them and taking them away from community and district general hospitals. They will certainly be wary of extending the services offered in such hospitals. Redcar primary care hospital, which is in the neighbouring constituency of the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), needs such an extension, but the localisation agenda is threatened by the lack of funding necessary to pursue it.
The Health Secretary and Prime Minister need to remember the pledge they made in 2007 to protect district general hospitals, and to listen to what communities, patients and medical professionals are saying about the importance of securing the future of community hospitals. It would take some of my constituents, such as those in Cowbar, 45 minutes by car or around three hours by public transport to reach the large hospital 20 miles away into which services are being consolidated. I imagine the situation is even worse in more rural parts of the north-east and north Yorkshire. That is clearly not acceptable. Individual members of the Government, such as the Foreign Secretary and Minister responsible for care services, have been critical of the effect of the Department of Health’s policies on the provision of services in local hospitals following campaigns by angry and worried constituents, but it is time for the rest of the Government and the other Health Ministers to act. Steps need to be taken, and funding provided, to ensure that patients have the choice to receive as many services as is medically possible in hospitals near their homes, not as a replacement to care at home or in more specialised hospitals, but to complement it.
7.39 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns): I congratulate the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) on securing this debate, and I pay tribute to NHS staff in his constituency, who do so much for the health and well-being of his and other hon. Members’ constituents.
20 Jun 2012 : Column 993
Robust community services are a vital element of emerging models of care, providing treatment to patients closer to home and improving health outcomes. The Government remain committed to extending and improving access to care and treatment in the community and at home. This includes sharing best practice to enable the smooth discharge and transition of patients from acute settings to robust community services, allowing them to be cared for closer to home.
Community hospitals play an important role in that process. The care that Guisborough hospital provides includes rehabilitation and follow-up care in a community setting. Community hospitals have the potential to make considerable efficiency savings in the local health economy by shifting care, diagnostics, minor injuries and outpatient services, among others, from acute hospitals to the community. They provide both planned and unplanned acute care and diagnostics services for patients closer to home, support best practice in reducing the need for admission to acute hospitals and contribute to the local community by providing employment opportunities and support for community-based groups.
Those are a few reasons the community estate is a core part of the NHS. It can help to transform care pathways, moving care from acute settings to community settings. Local investment in this type of facility is part of a dynamic service model that supports health and well-being for the whole community. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that under the transforming community services programme, responsibility for community services was transferred from primary care trusts to NHS and other providers. To this effect, South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust took over the operation of Guisborough hospital in April 2011.
The transfer of community services enabled the NHS to develop new innovative models of care using local multi-disciplinary, clinically led teams to improve services and health outcomes for local patients, families and communities. This has enabled the NHS to be creative in its approach to delivering community services. However, I fully appreciate the context within which all NHS organisations operate. They have to provide high quality services while remaining sustainable and efficient in making the best use of limited resources. The Government recognise this challenge, which is why we have protected NHS funding and are increasing funding in real terms during this Parliament.
In the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, Middlesbrough PCT will receive an allocation in 2012-13 of more than £299 million, which is an increase of more than £8 million, and Redcar and Cleveland PCT will receive more than £269 million, which is an increase of more than £7 million. Despite this generous settlement, however, the NHS needs to do more. It needs to find up to £20 billion of efficiency savings over the same period to meet the rising demand for NHS services and to continue to invest in new technologies and drugs to help meet these demands.
We will not dictate from the centre how efficiency savings should be achieved. Decisions about local health services should be made as close to local people as possible. Local NHS commissioners are best placed to identify the scale of the financial challenge and the opportunities for making savings, while driving up and
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maintaining quality. Every penny of those savings can be reinvested in front-line services and health care.
Guy Opperman: An example of that, I would suggest, is Haltwhistle hospital in west Northumberland, which has been rebuilt by the local NHS trust to provide a hospital facility and an integrated care facility. Does the Minister agree that that is a good example of the Department and the trust supporting a community hospital?
Mr Burns: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, because I understand that the campaign for that decision was kept up for more than 25 years. I congratulate NHS North of Tyne, Haltwhistle council and the friends of the hospital, as well as my hon. Friend, for all their work in ensuring that it is finally happening.
Tom Blenkinsop: It is good to hear that every penny saved will go back into the NHS. My main fear is that the new funding calculations that the Secretary of State for Health is proposing will be based not on deprivation but on age, which means that, as shown by studies by Durham university—a fine institution in my region—more than £600 million of the health funding that is currently given to north-east health services would be redirected south.
Mr Burns: I certainly note the point the hon. Gentleman makes, and I have read a number of his local newspapers, in which he and a number of his hon. Friends have been making it too. I am delighted that he accepts my argument that every single penny that is saved from the £20 billion of efficiency savings—which, of course, we inherited from the last Government and accepted, because it was the right policy to pursue—will be reinvested in the NHS.
I think the hon. Gentleman attended Health questions on 12 June, at which the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) raised the funding formula and the basis for it with me. I explained that a variety of factors, of which health is one, will determine the allocation of funding—just as it was determined under his Government—and that the question was also being looked at by an independent body. I have seen the newspapers, and I fully appreciate that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends are trying to drum up a storm by suggesting that they are going to be hard done by. However, if he reads the answer I gave to his right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East in Hansard, I hope it will reassure him, on reflection, about the current situation.
Mr Graham Stuart
The Minister will recognise that community hospitals in the north-east, as well as in Beverley and Holderness, were starved of funding under the last Government. We saw gross distortions in funding, as the formula used deprivation as a way of pouring funding into urban areas, where there were young people who, regardless of their social background, were not in need of health funding. That starved the community hospitals serving ageing populations, which did need the funding. What we need is not reverse gerrymandering, but health funding that follows clinical health need. We did not have that under the last Government, who starved rural community hospitals of funding. I
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congratulate the Minister on having the courage to face down the vested interests of the Labour party.
Mr Burns: Let me return my hon. Friend’s compliment in kind by saying that I am grateful for the valid points he makes. He knows as well as I do that this Government, under the leadership of my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), are totally committed to community hospitals. I know that he will also be reassured that, unlike with the last Government, there is no question whatever of this Government gerrymandering the funding formula.
I know that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland is aware of the scale of the challenge facing his local NHS. Like every local NHS economy, the NHS organisations that commission and provide services in his constituency must take some fairly tough decisions to deliver sustainable health services in future. Let me also say to him—in the nicest possible way, because I respect him—that we are in the situation of protecting the NHS budget and giving it a modest real-terms increase, given our commitment to the NHS, simply because of the economic mess that we inherited, thanks to the actions of his Government, under the stewardship of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). That meant that there was not enough money to sustain the levels of real-terms investment that might have been available earlier this century.
I turn now to Guisborough hospital. I am aware that Chaloner ward, which provided palliative care and rehabilitation, closed permanently in February 2012. I am advised, however, that services were transferred to the hospital’s larger Priory ward, which I am assured has adequate room and staffing to continue to provide high quality care. I understand that the decision to close Chaloner ward was based on the need to deliver services safely, efficiently and effectively, as the ward had been under-utilised and was not making the best use of nursing resources. Staff were engaged on the decision. In fact, they advised closure—I hope that the hon. Gentleman heard that. The staff advised closure, and staff at the ward were redeployed within Guisborough hospital and to the nearby Redcar primary care hospital.
I am also aware that temporary changes were made to the opening times of the minor injury unit at Guisborough hospital. The MIU now opens between 9 am and 5 pm from Monday to Friday, and between 8 am and 8 pm at weekends. I understand that patients requiring treatment outside those hours use Redcar hospital, local GP walk-in centres or the accident and emergency department at the James Cook university
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hospital. I have been informed that the MIU is staffed by a small team of nurses, and that the changes enabled the unit to continue to provide a safe service for patients. I also understand that the South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust is looking at whether other staff can provide support to the unit.
I have been informed that, in the longer term, South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust is reviewing the provision of acute and community services across all its sites, including Guisborough hospital. The review is aimed at ensuring the future safety, quality and sustainability of services. The trust has been working with GPs, commissioners and local authorities to establish models of care that will enable more patients to be cared for at home and avoid unnecessary admissions to hospital—whether at the larger acute hospital, James Cook, or community hospitals such as Guisborough. Once that work is completed, the trust expects to take a more definitive view of the future role of community hospitals such as that at Guisborough. It is not yet clear when the review will conclude. However, I am assured by the local NHS that there are no plans in the near future for further service changes at Guisborough hospital. I hope that that will reassure the hon. Gentleman. Should there be any changes in the longer term, once the trust has completed its review of service provision, local stakeholders and the public will be engaged in this process. He might be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has set out strengthened criteria for service changes. Any proposals for major service change need to be assured by the local NHS against the Secretary of State’s four tests for service change and, when necessary, to be subject to public consultation.
I am aware that the hon. Gentleman met the chief executive of South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust to discuss these matters in February 2012. I also understand that the trust provides him with regular briefings on these issues, and I hope that he finds that helpful and useful in formulating his views on the provision of health care in his area. I hope that being briefed personally by his local health service providers will allow him to have a more open mind in regard to what is actually going on in the NHS, rather than simply accepting the propaganda that all too often distorts his views. I strongly encourage him to continue that dialogue with the trust as it completes its review of service provision.
7.54 pm
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Deferred Division
That the draft Community Right to Challenge (Fire and Rescue Authorities and Rejection of Expressions of Interest) (England) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 30 April 2012, in the previous Session of Parliament, be approved.
The House divided:
Ayes 282, Noes 196.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, Mr Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Elphicke, Charlie
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Long, Naomi
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McCrea, Dr William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Selous, Andrew
Shannon, Jim
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Watkinson, Angela
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Mrs Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crausby, Mr David
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
David, Mr Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gilmore, Sheila
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Dame Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miller, Andrew
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murray, Ian
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Question accordingly agreed to.
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