Many of the contributions underlined powerfully the need for urgent action to put out the fires that are threatening to engulf one of our leading financial institutions and to prevent further wrongdoing at the
5 July 2012 : Column 1165
heart of banking. Banking employs more than 1 million people, and it generates £63 billion in Exchequer revenues and 8.9% of our gross domestic product.
I do not think that there is any disagreement between the Government and the Opposition on what we need to do, which is to sustain a strong, vibrant, transparent and more accountable financial sector in the UK that commands international confidence. Although we are united on the direction of travel, there are clearly differences on the choice of vehicle and its speed. We favour a cross-party Joint Committee of both Houses that is accountable to Parliament; in operation before the summer recess; equipped to navigate the legal minefield of criminal investigations; and well positioned to produce recommendations that can be implemented through legislation that can be introduced in this Session. The Opposition, as we have heard, prefer a more costly public inquiry led by a judge and run by Queen’s Counsel and other lawyers that would coincide with and perhaps undermine other regulatory proceedings operating on a time scale that cannot easily be controlled.
Those who support the first motion should listen to what the former Cabinet Secretary Lord O’Donnell said in the debate in the upper House on Tuesday:
“I was involved very much in setting up the Leveson inquiry, and my experience of judge-led inquiries is that you have to be incredibly careful about tying them down to specific issues and timetables.”
That is what the Opposition are seeking to do. He continued:
“What people have said they want from this specific inquiry means that it will grow bigger and take longer or that it will be incredibly superficial”.
Lord O’Donnell was not alone in expressing those concerns. Two other former Cabinet Secretaries voted against the Opposition’s proposals, and even Lord Eatwell, the Labour Treasury spokesman said:
“I am supportive of the idea of a Joint Committee moving forward to deal with the specific implications and consequences of the LIBOR element—what Mr Tyrie refers to as the ring-fence proposals.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 3 July 2012; Vol. 738, c. 617-623.]
Some hon. Members have claimed that a parliamentary Committee will be unable to rise above the political fray. However, we all realise that a Committee report pushed through on party lines will quickly be devalued. Others have suggested that a parliamentary Committee would lack the inquisitive force of an inquiry barrister. I want to make it absolutely clear that a Joint Committee will have what it needs to carry out an inquiry including, if it wants them, resources for counsel. If we establish a Joint Committee we are fortunate to have more than 1,000 Members in both Houses with the necessary expertise to hold an inquiry. The advantage of a parliamentary Committee is that it is in a position to ensure that the recommendations are carried forward—something that we cannot have with a judge-led inquiry.
A number of my hon. Friends have made the point that today’s debate has not just been about the conduct of the banks. To a lesser extent it has been about the capacity, reputation and relevance of parliamentary institutions to rise to the challenge. I have to say to those who resist a parliamentary inquiry that I have more confidence in the ability of Parliament and its
5 July 2012 : Column 1166
Committees to rise to the challenges that confront us this afternoon than all those who say we are the wrong people to do this.
The hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) did not make clear—and neither did the shadow Chancellor—whether, if motion 2 is defeated and motion 3 is carried, the Opposition will participate in the inquiry. I very much hope that if motion 2 is defeated the whole House will support motion 3. I hope that all parties will nominate those with the qualities needed, of whom there are many throughout both Houses, to the Joint Committee, and I hope that we can show the country that we have the ability and self-confidence to discharge the responsibilities placed on us and address the central issue at stake today—restoring confidence in the UK’s banking industry.
The House divided:
Ayes 239, Noes 320.
[5.14 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Fabian
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr Dai
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jowell, rh Dame Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr David Hamilton and
Susan Elan Jones
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davis, rh Mr David
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Howell, John
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr Brooks Newmark and
Jenny Willott
Question accordingly negatived.
5 July 2012 : Column 1167
5 July 2012 : Column 1168
5 July 2012 : Column 1169
5 July 2012 : Column 1170
5.28 pm
The Deputy Speaker then put the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Order, 4 July).
Professional Standards in the Banking Industry (No. 2)
Motion made, and Question put,
That, in the opinion of this House, a joint committee of the two Houses ought to be established into professional standards in the banking industry.—(Sir George Young.)
The House divided:
Ayes 330, Noes 226.
[5.28 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, rh Danny
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davis, rh Mr David
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Edwards, Jonathan
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Mr Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, Mr Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Loughton, Tim
Lucas, Caroline
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Mr James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr Mike
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whittingdale, Mr John
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wishart, Pete
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Jenny Willott and
Bill Wiggin
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
Darling, rh Mr Alistair
David, Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Fabian
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr Dai
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jowell, rh Dame Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Susan Elan Jones and
Mr David Hamilton
Question accordingly agreed to.
5 July 2012 : Column 1171
5 July 2012 : Column 1172
5 July 2012 : Column 1173
5 July 2012 : Column 1174
Ed Balls: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Government have won their vote. The Chair of the Treasury Committee will now chair a narrow inquiry based on the remit that he set out in the House this afternoon. The Opposition respect the hon. Gentleman and will work with him, but we have some real concerns about the membership and secretariat of the Joint Committee, which we hope he will address.
This afternoon’s debate, and particularly the devastating interventions of the Attorney-General, exposed serious questions about the scope of the inquiry—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The House must listen to this point of order in silence.
Ed Balls:
It is clear that there is a wider set of questions, on matters from mis-selling to small businesses to the wider culture and practices of the banking industry, that are outside the scope of the inquiry set out by the Chair of the Treasury Committee and, in our view, cannot be properly addressed by any parliamentary
5 July 2012 : Column 1175
Committee. In our view, the case for a full, open, judge-led public inquiry is stronger at the end of this afternoon, and we will continue to press that case.
It is our view that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister have made a grave error of judgment, and any time future scandals emerge, people will ask why we in this country are not having the full, independent public inquiry that our country needs.
Mr George Osborne: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome the Opposition’s agreement in principle, as I take it, to take part in a joint parliamentary inquiry into what has happened. I suggest that the usual channels now work on the membership of that inquiry and that the Front-Bench teams and my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) discuss any concerns that Opposition Front Benchers have about resourcing, the secretariat and so on. What everyone now wants to do is get a resolution that all parties can agree on, which we can bring to the House before it rises, so that we can get the Joint Committee up and running, get to the bottom of what went wrong in our banking industry and with the LIBOR scandal, and make the changes needed to legislation to ensure that it never happens again. I would welcome the Opposition’s support in doing that.
Mr Tyrie: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think the whole House, and actually the whole country, will welcome the engagement that appears to be taking place across the Dispatch Boxes. I reiterate that I will do whatever the House asks me to do, but I believe it is worth my trying to chair the Committee only if it has the full support of all the major parties in the House of Commons.
Mr Deputy Speaker: I am grateful for all three points of order, and the Chair has nothing to add.
5 July 2012 : Column 1176
Business of the House (11 July)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That at the sitting on Wednesday 11 July—
(1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions relating to Sittings of the House and September Sittings not later than two hours after the commencement of proceedings on the first Motion; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; the Questions may be put after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply; and
(2) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private business), the Private Business set down by the Chairman of Ways and Means shall be entered upon at the conclusion of the backbench business on that day, and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, for three hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business; the business may be entered upon after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Mr Heath.)
5.44 pm
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Before hon. Members go home, they might wish to interest themselves in whether we have Divisions after 7 o’clock next Wednesday, or whether we should arrange our business to ensure that any Divisions are before or no later than that time.
The motion is highly relevant to that question and perhaps I can elucidate its implications. The first part of the motion puts a timetable on the length of the debate on the eight motions on the Order Paper relating to sittings of the House and September sittings. We might find that, in addition, amendments to those eight motions are tabled. I do not know how much interest there is among Members of the House in the subject, but it would be premature to curtail the debate to two hours. Why is it not possible to trust hon. Members to debate sittings of the House for as long or as short a period as they think is reasonable, having regard to the issues and the Procedure Committee report?
My first concern is that the first part of motion 4 limits the debate on the motions relating to sittings of the House and September sittings to two hours. In business questions today, the Leader of the House said that, immediately after debates on sittings of the House, there will be a debate on a motion on VAT on air ambulance fuel payments, which is one of the debates we were hoping to have today, but was squeezed out by the change of business. The motion is supported by a very large number of right hon. and hon. Members and there is a lot of interest in it, so I anticipate that the debate will last for up to three hours, which was the original time allocation. However, I would have thought that the motion would not cause controversy, and that the House would not divide on it.
Under today’s business statement, we could have the first debate on the sittings of the House, followed by a three-hour debate on VAT on air ambulance fuel payments, and then, under the terms of the second part of motion 4, a three-hour debate on private business. Under Standing Order No. 20, on time for taking private business, traditionally and by convention, there has been a three-hour slot allocated to private business, so that the hon. Members concerned with it know exactly where they stand—what the issues are, and
5 July 2012 : Column 1177
when the debate will begin and end. There is quite a lot of subject matter in the private business set down for Wednesday, and I would have hoped that it would be possible to debate it during the time normally set aside for it, namely between 4 pm and 7 pm.
It is important that hon. Members who want to involve themselves in any Divisions should be able to do so at a convenient hour, but if motion 4 was not carried this evening, we would have unlimited time to discuss the sittings of the House—the House could be responsible in its own way for how long that went on. After that, we would have the debate on the private business, unless the sittings of the House debate finished before 4 o’clock, in which case we could start the debate on VAT on ambulances, which could continue either at 7 o’clock or earlier, if the private business did not take the full three hours. That would prevent the problem of people being kept behind.
I say that because I and a few colleagues are what one might describe as specialists in holding promoters of private business to account. We like to ensure proper scrutiny. On several occasions, however, motions not dissimilar to this one have been allowed through, because none of us wants to be unnecessarily awkward. As a reward for allowing such motions to pass, however, the Chief Whip and other Whips have briefed against us, saying that, “Colleagues are being kept back because of the hon. Member for Christchurch or the hon. Member for this constituency or that constituency”—I will not mention their names, because it might embarrass them, but they might wish to participate in this debate.
If we pass such a motion, then, the people indulging the business managers by agreeing to the motion find themselves effectively being put in the dock if the business of the House goes on much later than one would normally expect on a Wednesday.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Is it not true that the private business set down for consideration on Wednesday has been kicking around for several years? In some cases, it dates back to the 2007 Session. It could hardly be described as a matter of urgency.
Mr Chope: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am sure that points like that—if not identical to it—will be made when we discuss the private business motions, because in essence they are motions on whether the House should agree with the other place that private Members’ Bills that, as he says, have been hanging around in the House for a long time should be revived, or whether the promoters should be held to account for the enormous delays.
Some of the Bills relate to peddlers. We know that since those Bills first began five or more years ago, the Government have announced that they will introduce separate provisions relating to peddlers. I will not go into the merits or otherwise of those particular Bills, because you would rule me out of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, but the question of whether they should be further considered or should lapse owing to how long they have been kicking around needs to be debated. I anticipate that the people saying they should no longer be heard might want to
5 July 2012 : Column 1178
put the proposition to the vote, and I suggest that the voting take place at 7 o’clock on Wednesday rather than much later.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It occurs to me that there is a certain incongruity in extending Wednesday when the House will just have voted on the sitting hours. We will have adopted hours and then immediately have suspended them for private business. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is rather peculiar?
Mr Chope: I agree with my hon. Friend, who, as so often, gets to the nub of the issue and the inconsistencies in the line taken by the business managers. Of course, we do not yet know what line officially they will take towards the sittings of the House, except that, judging by the motion, they think it desirable that we do not all have a say and that the debate be limited to two hours. I had not anticipated that we would have the chance to begin a debate on this important subject this evening.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Does my hon. Friend not agree that the scope of the private business to be debated on Wednesday—provided it is given time—is extremely narrow and that it will be a challenge, even for the ingenuity of those who hold such Bills to account, to come up with a debate lasting three hours?
Mr Chope: I hear what my hon. Friend says, and if he is right, that is all the more reason why we should not support this motion, because otherwise those of us who wish to debate the private business, including him, will find ourselves hanging around in the House until a three-hour debate about VAT for air ambulances has been completed. Our entitlement under Standing Orders to have our business debated between 4 o’clock and 7 o’clock will have been taken away from us, which would be very unfair.
Bob Blackman: We cannot anticipate the House’s decisions on the motions dealing with the sittings of the House. There may well be only two Divisions, which would rapidly truncate the voting following that debate and enable the business to move forward much more swiftly. If that were to happen, the series of Divisions that my hon. Friend has alluded to would not take place.
Mr Chope:
We can speculate as much as we want to about what might or might not happen, but my experience in the House leads me to suppose that we always ought to look for the unexpected to happen on such occasions. We do not yet know how many amendments will be tabled to the sittings of the House motion or how contentious the debate will be on whether we should continue to have September sittings. It might all go through on the nod, in accordance with the primary suggestions of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, but it also might not. I have heard rumours about what might be the consensus emerging among Members, and my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) might have heard contradictory rumours, but essentially there is a strong onus on those who want to change the sitting hours of the House to put that case and to argue it successfully against those
5 July 2012 : Column 1179
who would say that they have made their arrangements for this Parliament on the basis of the sitting hours that were already laid down at the end of the previous Parliament.
Mr Nuttall: On the other side of the coin is the danger of having urgent questions or ministerial statements on that day. Indeed, I was present at business questions earlier, when the Leader of the House was not able to give an absolute assurance that that would not be the case next Wednesday.
Mr Chope: That is another issue. We do not know: there may be very good reasons why Mr Speaker would allow an urgent question as a result of what happens on Tuesday. We cannot anticipate that, which is why we should make it clear that the Standing Orders of this House make specific provision to allow for three hours for private business. Standing Order No. 20 specifies those hours as being between 4 o’clock and 7 o’clock on Wednesdays. If the private business does not take as long as those three hours, we can then get on to the following business sooner. If the issue of VAT for air ambulances comes up for debate before 4 o’clock, it can be adjourned at 4 o’clock and then resume as soon as the debate on the private business is concluded. For many years that has been the standard procedure. It is only during this Parliament that the Leader of the House and his deputy have started playing games with those of us who are concerned to ensure that we can hold those who bring forward private Bills and private business properly to account.
I have been very indulgent and tried my best to explain the situation to colleagues who have been told by the Whips that they must stay until late at night because I have initiated a debate on private business that has gone on longer than it would have done if we had not conceded such motions. Frankly, I am fed up. Why should I be blamed for keeping the House late, when the situation is the direct responsibility of motions brought forward by the Leader of the House and his deputy? I am keen—
6 pm
The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3)).
Ordered, That the debate be resumed tomorrow.
sittings of the House
That, on Tuesday 17 July, the House shall meet at 11.30 am and references to specific times in the Standing Orders of this House shall apply as if that day were a Wednesday.—(Mr Heath.)
5 July 2012 : Column 1180
Female Genital Mutilation
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.)
6 pm
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to speak again on this important and topical issue. The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) and I have been here before on a Thursday evening.
In April this year, a Birmingham dentist, Dr Omar Addow, told undercover reporters from The Sunday Times that female genital mutilation was
“not allowed in this country”.
“These are very private and secret things...It must be confidential but I think it’s better you go to Africa...I can give you some medication...I can help you.”
The same report quoted Mohammed Sahib, an alternative medicine practitioner from Barking, east London, offering to carry out FGM on a 10-year-old girl for just £750. The actions described by those men are illegal under this country’s law, as the House will know. Under the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003, which built on the Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985, it is illegal to take girls abroad for FGM or to facilitate that process in any way. The 2003 Act extended extraterritorial protection to all UK residents and citizens. However, it seems that those legal protections are still being flouted and thousands of young British girls every year face the prospect of becoming victims of a serious and violent form of child abuse.
I am glad that the dentist, Dr Addow, and the doctor who referred the reporters to him, Dr Mao-Aweys, were arrested and that their respective professional bodies are investigating the matter. As an aside, though, I would question why it took a newspaper to expose that activity. Why was it not on the police’s radar, or that of local health officials? Or is it the case of “where there’s a will, there’s a way”? I will return to the key role that must be played by front-line professionals later in my speech.
Members will be aware of my interest in female genital mutilation and of the all-party parliamentary group on the issue, which I chair. I am grateful to the many Members who have taken an interest in the subject over the past year. I have spoken before about this barbaric practice still being carried out across the world and I believe that it is still being practised on girls who live in this country.
The World Health Organisation defines FGM as any
“procedure that intentionally alters or causes injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.”
The WHO and the United Nations also recognise FGM as a human rights violation. I will not go into great detail about the devastating effects of FGM—I have covered those subjects before—but it results in girls, usually under the age of 10, facing a lifetime of pain and many significant physical and mental health problems. Today, I want to focus on those girls who are most at risk of being taken overseas in the long summer holidays by their families to have FGM inflicted on them—the theory being that the holiday break gives the girls time to “heal” before returning to school in September.
5 July 2012 : Column 1181
There are many who downplay the issue or deny that FGM is a problem in the UK, and trying to eradicate a practice that is shrouded in such secrecy and to establish the evidence base for one’s arguments is, by definition, difficult. However, I believe that some girls in the UK are at risk of suffering FGM, and I would like to offer the House some facts from which that conclusion can reasonably be drawn.
The last comprehensive study into FGM prevalence in the UK was carried out in 2007, and was itself extrapolated from the 2001 census figures based on settlement in the UK from FGM-practising regions of the world, such as east Africa. That study has become the main source of statistics for debate on FGM in the UK ever since. Although we need a fresh comprehensive study, it should be noted that the Forward study has been peer-reviewed in the past six months by a panel of European experts and its methodology remains robust. The study’s figures also received an update in the report on harmful cultural practices, “The Missing Link”, commissioned by the Greater London authority last November.
We cannot precisely determine the persistence of FGM as a cultural practice in the communities that have resettled in the UK. Some reports have found a falling away of the practice, while others have found an aggressive re-commitment to it among diaspora communities. However, we know from freedom of information figures obtained by media organisations last year that the number of women seeking treatment for FGM has increased in recent years. The London Evening Standard reported that, in 2010, 442 women in 11 London NHS trusts sought treatment for FGM and related complications, often associated with pregnancy and childbirth—a 30% increase on 2007. This would suggest that, even if—and it is a very big if—the percentage of girls and women having had FGM is falling in the UK, the increased volume of migration from practising countries and regions would still mean that there is a net increase in the number of women and girls with, or at risk of, FGM. This is of particular concern as the UK has seen significant migration from Somalia, where World Health Organisation estimates put FGM percentage prevalence in the high 90s, and where the most extreme form of FGM is widely practised. I highlight Somalia for a reason: Puntland, a large region in north-east Somalia, has recently passed a law that indemnifies families who inflict sunna-type FGM on their girls, even if the girls die as a result.
Over the last year, I have attended conferences held by health practitioners, including midwives, gynaecologists and obstetricians who have illustrated that more women were presenting for childbirth with FGM, many of them then asking to be reinfibulated—that effectively means sewn back up—or coming in for the birth of a later child, with clear evidence of reinfibulation after the birth of their earlier children. This does not support any conclusion that there is a rapid rate of abandonment of this practice in the UK, and these women’s daughters should be considered at risk.
Although, regrettably, there have been no prosecutions for FGM-related crimes in the UK in the last 25 years, people have been successfully prosecuted and convicted
5 July 2012 : Column 1182
in other comparable European countries, most of which have significantly smaller communities from FGM-practising regions than the UK.
In the light of the evidence I have presented, I hope the House will agree it is reasonable to conclude that a substantial number of young girls living in Britain today are at risk of becoming victims of FGM. I will focus my remaining comments on what more we can do to reduce that risk.
I want to be clear—I have said this before—that this is not about picking on one culture or another. Just as we celebrate cultural diversity in our country, however, we cannot shy away from difficult issues because of cultural sensitivities. Proper regard for people’s cultural heritage has become warped by over-sensitivity, and harmful cultural practices have not always been challenged as strongly as they should have been. The feedback from health professionals at the conferences I have attended is that they do feel constrained and they worry about deterring patients from presenting. Some teachers I have spoken to, although charged with safeguarding these children, were completely ignorant of FGM and some admitted their guidelines were, at best, embryonic. Most conversations with front-line professionals quickly come round to cultural sensitivity.
Even a recent detailed report on the Somali community in a particular London borough did not contain a single mention of FGM, or even an allusion to it, despite the fact that it is probably the most serious health issue faced by women in the British Somali community. The authors said that community leaders were very sensitive about the issue and did not want it mentioned. This is an oft-repeated pattern, and it will continue as long as we—politicians are the worst offenders here—continue to address issues affecting women and children in minority communities via their community leaders who are overwhelmingly male and often very socially conservative.
We have to ask ourselves what we care about more—the sensitivities of community leaders or the health and well-being of our children? And they are our children. We do not affirm their equality in our country by denying them the protection of our laws and the excellent safeguarding guidelines that exist but are not routinely implemented.
I have mentioned the last comprehensive study into FGM prevalence by Forward. Although still robust, it needs updating, and in my Adjournment debate speech last November, I asked the Minister to consider funding a national study into FGM prevalence. I commend her and thank her for funding, and therefore making possible, the two-day preparatory research workshop co-ordinated by Equality Now. I know she is considering its findings. Although many of the recommendations relate to other Departments—in particular, the Department of Health—I hope she will commit to work with colleagues to respond positively to the workshop.
I am also very pleased to see that the Home Office has worked with the Southall Black Sisters to produce the excellent “Three steps to escaping violence against women and girls” guide, which includes FGM. Will the Minister tell us how this is being used, how wide is its distribution and whether it has been sent to local education authorities and/or head teachers by the Department for Education? The chief medical officer wrote to all GPs and other health professionals in May this year with
5 July 2012 : Column 1183
some excellent guidance on treating FGM and protecting at-risk girls. I feel that something similar is needed for schools.
Helping parents to protect their own children is also important. Work done by the charity Forward in 2009 found that some women from at-risk communities were reluctant to cut their daughters and felt that the pressure to do so had diminished in the UK. One reason that was identified was that those women no longer had to deal with pressure from extended family members, particularly grandmothers. That is especially relevant in the context of tonight’s debate about girls who risk being taken abroad for the long summer holidays, where they and their parents may be exposed to such family pressure for extended periods.
The parents who do not want to cut need to be supported in resisting the pressure to inflict FGM on their young daughters. Simple measures such as the “health passport” which was introduced in the Netherlands last year, and whose introduction is being considered here, could go a long way towards empowering parents to stand up to family pressure. Can the Minister update the House on any progress towards the introduction of a “health passport” for England and Wales before the school summer holidays? If that cannot be done this year, I hope that it will definitely be done next year.
I understand that the Minister met a delegation of young people in Bristol yesterday to talk about what could be done about FGM. Can she also update the House on their views about the best way in which they feel they can safeguard their own health? No doubt she will join me in commending the work of the Bristol safeguarding children board and that of key professionals such as Nurse Jacalyn Mathers, who have done excellent work to tackle FGM. Much can be learnt from the work in Bristol across many Departments, and I am sure that the Minister will have details of their action plan. The Mayor of London’s Office for Policing and Crime is also developing a pilot initiative, which the all-party group will follow with great interest.
Will the Minister join me in encouraging MPs with at-risk girls in their constituencies to ask the right questions in the next few weeks when they visit schools? They should ask head teachers, as I have, whether their staff know the signs to look out for, and are clear about what to do if they suspect that a girl is at risk. Health and education professionals must be alert to indicators that FGM may be about to happen. Those include talk of and requests for extended holidays, preparations for so-called special ceremonies, and requests for travel vaccinations or anti-malarial medication. The British Medical Journal recently carried helpful guidance to doctors on the subject.
Has the Minister had any conversations with other Departments about the heightened risk of FGM at this time of year? For example, has she had—or could she have—any discussions with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s excellent forced marriage unit, with a view to learning from its experience of safeguarding UK minors overseas?
In February this year, the Minister assured me during Women and Equalities questions that she would undertake to ensure that UK border staff read the safeguarding guidelines. Perhaps she can update us on whether that has happened. While on the subject of borders, may I commend the work of the charity Children and Families
5 July 2012 : Column 1184
Across Borders, and ask the Minister to consider the comprehensive plan that it has prepared to identify and track at-risk girls? It is too late for that to be done this year, but the project could make a big difference in the future.
Let me quote again from the article which was published in The Sunday Times in April:
“‘It is not possible, we cannot do that’, one man said. ‘The only advice I can give you, if you can, if possible, take your sister or your daughter to another country that allows… it’s no problem... You know in this country you have to fight for... your cultures. They don’t like your cultures.’”
Well, Mr Deputy Speaker, FGM is not culture; it is child abuse. We must stand firm on that point and match our words with action, and I very much hope that further action will result from this debate. We must work together to put additional practical barriers in the way of those who, this summer, are planning to blight the life of a child with a blade. If we can save only one little girl from that fate, the House will have spent its time well this evening.
6.14 pm
The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), and thank her for again raising the important subject of female genital mutilation. She works tirelessly on this important agenda, and I entirely agree with her that genital mutilation is an unacceptable form of abuse against girls and women. We know that at this time of year, just before the start of the school holidays, girls are at much greater risk of being taken abroad for the purpose of FGM.
My hon. Friend asked a number of questions, and I shall try to deal with all of them. Let me begin by saying that preventing FGM is at the heart of the Government’s ambition. This summer, leaflets and posters, staff fact sheets and training videos about FGM have been distributed to all children’s centres in London by the Metropolitan police to raise awareness among those who work with parents and children in affected communities. The police are also refreshing their training for officers throughout London, reminding them of their role in safeguarding women and girls at risk of FGM. This awareness-raising is something we can all do, to ensure all front-line staff are able to respond to victims. Although there is not much time left before the summer holidays, I will encourage all MPs to write to their local schools, raising this issue and pointing out that schools should look for signs of potential risk, especially at this time of year.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): Will my hon. Friend also highlight that this is not just an Africa problem? I went on an all-party group trip to Indonesia, and how the Indonesian Government deal with it is fascinating. There is localism in Indonesia’s 17,000 islands, and in islands where there is strict sharia law they hand out clean tissues and good medical equipment, but they do not ban the practice. This is a problem in countries across the world, therefore.
Lynne Featherstone: It is a bit late to be taking new steps before our schools break for the summer, but I will get out whatever messages are possible in whatever way I can.
5 July 2012 : Column 1185
Home Office staff will attend a conference in Nairobi this month, training consular staff—who are the first responders to forced marriage and FGM cases—in how to respond effectively to reported cases abroad. A year on from launching the FGM multi-agency practice guidelines, we are continuing to challenge and tackle this appalling crime.
Additionally, the Department of Health continues to ensure that health professionals are able to respond to women and girls at risk, and it has focused on communications, which will extend throughout the summer period. A short film about FGM will be launched for the NHS Choices website. The film will be available to the public and is aimed at raising awareness among families, young girls and all professionals who may come into contact with girls and families who may be at risk.
In May, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), who has responsibility for public health, wrote to the royal colleges and NHS agencies, encouraging them to raise awareness of FGM among professionals. It is shocking that many of them still do not know enough about it, even though so much information is available. The Health Department’s chief medical officer and director of nursing, with the support of the royal colleges, wrote to health professionals drawing their attention to FGM and the multi-agency practice guidelines.
My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea raised the issue of Puntland, Somalia. The recent legislation on FGM in Puntland needs to be understood in the context of a broader ongoing political and constitutional process—however frustrating that is—which means that it would not be helpful for us to challenge it at this time. A number of key players in Puntland are working towards the abandonment of FGM, although I acknowledge what my hon. Friend said about that not being successful.
Jane Ellison: I am well aware that the British Government made significant efforts before this legislation was passed, and that this issue was raised at the Somalia conference. I just wanted to highlight why girls from that region in particular might be at risk, as the culture is still very prevalent there.
Lynne Featherstone: I think I must have misunderstood my hon. Friend’s point. We have been working there, and a number of key players in Puntland are working towards making progress as well, including the President himself, religious leaders and UN agencies. I have recently begun to question our work with leaders in communities and countries where such practices are so embedded, however. The Somalia FGM taskforce, of which the UK is an active and vocal member, is of the view that working to support these individuals, and working with the diaspora, is the best approach to supporting the abandonment of the practice.
I am pleased to be able to say that there are encouraging developments on the international stage. During my visit to Ethiopia in April, I met Dr Bogaletch, a founder of KMG—Kembatta Women’s Self-Help Centre. She has worked in Ethiopia since 1997, with the goal of creating an environment where the rights of women are recognised. It has managed to mobilise communities to
5 July 2012 : Column 1186
review long-held beliefs critically and honestly, allowing the communities themselves to question the practice and empower individuals to ignite change. I met her recently when she came over to this country, and she is going to supply us with the tools and the pathway—the route that she uses in communities. Her work is very interesting. I do not know whether it is directly transferable to the diaspora here, but there may be something in it. Although we are trying to make progress with prosecutions, progress is agonisingly slow, so we should leave no stone unturned.
What I want to highlight today is the incredible social change that young people themselves are driving forward. My hon. Friend mentioned the young women from Bristol, I believe.
Jane Ellison indicated assent.
Lynne Featherstone: Yesterday, I had the pleasure of meeting a group of inspiring young women who are working on projects run by Daughters of Eve and Integrate Bristol, speaking out against FGM. They are dedicated girls, and with the support of Home Office funding have written a stage play that tackles FGM. They are using poetry to address FGM, which is quite clever because it is less head-on and does not arouse the anger that they face in some other contexts. They are leading peer-mentoring workshops to educate others about FGM, and they are preparing to deliver a national conference. Their innovation, passion and dedication to educate others demonstrate the power of community activity. They are not scared to stand up as women and speak out to protect others. Such qualities and action are vital to ensure a safer future for the next generation, and their work is truly inspirational. Of all the people I have met during discussions about tackling FGM, those young women were particularly inspiring. If they are a sign of things to come—if only we could clone them or multiply them—change will come. They are the agents of change and offer great hope that we can move forward.
In the next few months I intend to organise a round-table meeting to understand what methods are working and what more we need to do. I want to have a very open discussion with some of our key partners in the work on FGM. Have we, for example, been taking the right approach in asking leaders in communities that practise FGM to be the agents of change themselves? As someone recently pointed out to me, would we ask rapists what to do about rape? We have to temper such views with a recognition that we do need to work with communities. At this round table, I want to take a very fresh look with all our key partners, such as social workers and the police. I will focus the meeting on how we create a step change in approach in order to engage communities in the UK. We need this now in order to progress the good work being done across the country.
My hon. Friend works tirelessly on this issue, I am putting a lot of effort into it, and Members on both sides of the House take it seriously. Progress is good but slow, given the size of the population where this practice is prevalent.
My hon. Friend raised the issue of updating the evidence base in the UK. Learning from international development was not the only commitment I made to this House in November. I am also committed to looking
5 July 2012 : Column 1187
at updating the statistical and quantitative evidence base. My hon. Friend made the powerful point that the records are outdated, even if the methodology is still robust. As she mentioned, the Home Office funded the organisation Equality Now to carry out a small methodological workshop. I have just received the final report from Equality Now, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank it for all its work. I have noted the recommendations, which my hon. Friend has said she supports, and I have asked officials to convene a meeting with Equality Now to ensure the findings are fully discussed with the Home Office, colleagues across government and other interested organisations.
My hon. Friend asked me about the leaflets produced by the Home Office and Southall Black Sisters in February. The leaflet was translated into 12 languages and has been distributed to more than 30 embassies in the UK and to asylum screening units for women and girls claiming asylum in the UK. The document can also be found on the Home Office website and we are happy to speak to the Department for Education to try to ensure that LEAs and education professionals are aware of the document.
In November, I also committed to look at the use of the document used in Holland.
Jane Ellison: I just want to emphasise that I do not think that the message is getting through to teachers.
Lynne Featherstone:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I could not agree with her more. I have some idea how we might approach the subject and I am happy to talk to the Department for Education. Schools are the
5 July 2012 : Column 1188
right place to deal with this and at the moment the message is not getting through.
My hon. Friend mentioned the health passport, which is an information leaflet about the legislation relating to FGM for use by families and girls when they travel abroad. After careful research, I am pleased to announce that we will develop something similar and test it within the next year.
Lynne Featherstone: I congratulate my hon. Friend, as she is the one who brought up the idea.
In the UK, we propose that the document, which we will call a “Declaration against FGM”, will state that FGM is a criminal offence, including when a British citizen is outside the UK, and what the penalties are for anyone found committing or aiding the offence. Additionally, it will include important advice and contact details for help and support. We hope that it will be an additional tool for families and girls who travel abroad that will clearly state the UK position. It will also complement the refresher training being given to consular staff over the summer and all consular staff will be aware of it.
Once again, I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate and for her continued determination to bring the subject to people’s attention.