6.40 pm
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): We have had an interesting debate this afternoon on policing and the flagship coalition policy of police and crime commissioners in the 41 police authority areas outside London. It has been noticeable that we have heard only from Conservative and Labour Members of Parliament in this debate. No Back-Bench Liberal Democrat MP has spoken. Liberal Democrats seem to be standing in only 24 of the 41 police authority areas, despite their voting for the policy, but then perhaps they are still making up their mind on whether they support it or not.
There have been some excellent contributions to the debate, with many from the Humberside area. It is good that the Labour candidate in Humberside, Lord John Prescott, has had so much publicity this afternoon. It is noticeable that the Conservative candidate does not seem to feature very much at all.
Let me turn first to the contribution made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who spoke with great authority as a former Home Secretary. He reminded us of Labour’s achievement in government. He spoke about the reduction in crime levels, including the 64% reduction in domestic violence that we saw under the Labour Government, and the focus on that particular crime, which for many years had not been seen as a matter for the police. He also talked about the important role that the police play in partnership working and how important it is to ensuring that crime continues to fall.
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My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) raised the important issue of funding levels and the inequity of Surrey seemingly receiving more money than forces in areas such as the west midlands. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) spoke about London policing, with 463 fewer officers already in the Metropolitan police. She talked about knife crime and the concerns of young people in the capital. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) challenged the slogan used by the Prime Minister on Monday—“tough but intelligent”—in his speech on crime, which I think is the first he has made since becoming Prime Minister. My hon. Friend focused on the lack of intelligence in that slogan and in the policies that the Government have been pursuing over the past two and a half years. He also declared himself as a “proud pleb”.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) spoke as a Scottish MP, but from the perspective of someone with fresh eyes looking at what was happening with the elections. He talked about the fact that many people do not know that the elections are happening and about his experience with the police parliamentary scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said that she had been amazed and impressed during the time she spent with the police. She talked about the important concept of policing by consent and the impact of cuts in her constituency.
My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) also spoke about his experience on the police parliamentary scheme and, again, the effect of cuts in his constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) spoke about the complexities of policing and the politicisation of the police through the policies that the Government are pursuing. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) talked about the shambles in Wales with the ballot papers and the cost that the taxpayer will have to pick up because of the Government’s failure to count days again, which seems to be a running theme.
Let me turn to the policy of having police and crime commissioners. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) stated, the elections will cost £100 million, plus the £350,000 that will have to be paid to put the ballot papers right in Wales. This flagship policy must be set against the backdrop of the fact that £100 million would pay for 3,000 new police officers. This is at a time when 15,000 police officers are to be cut by 2015, and when we already know that 6,800 police officers have been cut from the front line in the first two years of this Parliament, which is more than experts had predicted would be cut in the whole of the Parliament. There is real concern, too, about the headlong rush into mass privatisation, and the failure to learn the lessons from what happened this summer with G4S.
Over the past four weeks the policing story dominating the airwaves has been a senior Cabinet Minister swearing at police officers and reportedly calling them “plebs”. In the past two and a half years, the coalition has made the job of being a police officer much harder. It has restricted the use of CCTV and DNA, it is weakening antisocial behaviour orders and it has cut funding to work with communities, and young people in particular.
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1028
Labour opposed the police and crime commissioner model for very good reasons, but in the coming election we cannot leave policing to the Tory candidates alone, who we know are cheerleaders for cutting front-line police officers. The issues are far too important for us to stand aside. We are opposed, however, to these elections being held in one of the darkest and coldest months of the year. Well the Minister explain why we are having these elections in November? Is this a deal that the Liberal Democrats did because they did not want an election in May, when they were going to do so badly in the local council elections?
For the record, let us be clear: the Liberal Democrats voted in favour of setting up the PCCs, with all the associated election and salary costs. Labour voted against that. Labour would much rather spend the money on front-line policing and cutting crime further, not cutting police numbers. The Liberal Democrats promised 3,000 extra police at the 2010 general election, in full knowledge of the deficit. When does the Minister expect to deliver on that promise?
At the end of 2009, the Liberal Democrats released some research that said the Government should recruit 10,000 more police officers. Their leader, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), said if that were done, an “extra 82,265 crimes” would be solved each year. He said:
“The Liberal Democrats are the only party who wants to catch more criminals by putting more police on the street.”
Given their record and what they have said, it is unsurprising that the Liberal Democrats have chickened out of standing in many of the PCC elections.
In an article in The Daily Telegraph, the former police Minister, the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), says that having TV adverts
“cunningly placed during Downton Abbey”
and “The X Factor” will ensure that people go out to vote. How naive. When I was in Nottingham earlier this week with our excellent candidate Paddy Tipping knocking on doors and talking to individuals, nobody knew about the elections. I am very sceptical about the comment of the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice that 85% of people will see these advertisements. I repeat the comment of senior police figure Peter Neyroud on these elections:
“If you could have constructed a manual on how not to conduct an election, the Home Office have managed to tick off just about every element of it”.
The Electoral Reform Society has warned that this threatens
“to result in the lowest turnout of any nationwide election in British history.”
We are holding the elections in November when holding elections is much more expensive than at other times of the year. Doing so will also drive down turnout, and the elections are unpopular with the public in any case. Instead of a free post or a Government-backed booklet with information about the candidates to be sent to each voter, individuals can only go on to the Government website. Some 71% of over-75s have never used the internet, and neither have almost 20% of people in Wales. At a time when we want to encourage people to vote, the Government are immediately putting electors at a disadvantage. Belatedly, we are now told that there will be a telephone number that voters can call to ask for information to be sent.
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1029
What level of turnout is the Minister looking for to make these elections a success and give legitimacy to his Government’s flagship policy? As we have heard, the Minister said at his party conference that 20% is his aim. Is that correct? Interestingly, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice did not give him much support when he was challenged on this during his opening speech, so it seems that the coalition are split, again, on this matter.
In conclusion, Labour wants to accelerate progress in cutting crime, not make that more difficult. Under Labour, we had more police with more powers, and we sent more criminals to prison. The streets became safer and crime fell by 43%. The coalition has been rowing back on police numbers and police powers. Worse still, the coalition is going to squander £100 million of taxpayers’ money on this shambles of a PCC election, so I ask hon. Members to support the motion.
6.50 pm
The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne): I am grateful for the opportunity to conclude this debate. You have doubtless heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, of a khaki election, and we have the green and brown of the khaki coalition looking after police interests in England and Wales. It is ideal for me to have the opportunity to respond to the points raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House during the debate and to what I see as the four main criticisms made of Government policy in the Opposition motion. They are as follows: first, that the Government are not spending enough money—a recurring theme; secondly, that we are insufficiently authoritarian when considering the right balance between the power of the state and the liberties of the individual; thirdly, that we are too hasty, as a Government, in our enthusiasm for greater transparency and public engagement in policing; and fourthly—this is an overarching theme—that we are too enthusiastic overall about reform of the police service.
I shall go through those criticisms in the short time available. The first is that the Government are not spending enough money—this is what the motion describes as the “wrong-headed” pursuit of greater efficiency and value for money. It is, of course, always relevant to remind the House that the previous Government, having promised to abolish boom and bust, ended up presiding over an economy that went bust. The new Government came to office with our country looking down the barrel of a gun—we had a bigger deficit than Greece when we took office—and we had to make some difficult decisions to get to grips with that deficit. We have reduced the deficit, but this country is still borrowing a billion pounds every three days. Against that backdrop, it is just not credible to carry on spending money—borrowed money—with reckless impunity. The Government have no choice but to deal with the deficit, and as a service spending £14 billion a year, the police can and must make their fair share of the savings needed.
Underlying Labour’s analysis is a fundamentally flawed case, and I will sum it up for hon. Members. According to Labour, “The more money you spend, the better the results you get”—never mind cutting bureaucracy or getting good value for the taxpayer; it is spend, spend, spend. The problem is that the results do not bear out Labour’s analysis. Last week, the most recent independent
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1030
crime statistics were published. I am sorry to disappoint Labour Members, but crime has fallen. It has fallen by 6% over the past year and by 10% in the two years since this Government came to office. It has fallen by 12% in the last year
—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Mr Bryant, I ask you to stop shouting across the Dispatch Box now.
Mr Browne: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I was just reminding the House that the Government have presided over a 10% fall in crime in the past two years. The latest figures show that crime is lower in England and Wales than at any time since the official survey started in 1981. Chief constables are rising to the challenge of making efficiency savings and providing greater value for money. As Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has said:
“The front line is being protected”.
Police reform is working. We have swept away central targets and reduced police bureaucracy. That shows that how the police are deployed, rather than their absolute numbers, is the key to cutting crime.
Mr Browne: Before I give way, let me put it like this to Labour: the best way to measure the success of a service is not whether we have spent more and more money on it, but whether we have got better and better results.
Diana Johnson: So does the hon. Gentleman agree with what his leader said—that if there were an additional 10,000 police officers, 82,265 crimes would be solved each year? Does the Minister support that, or was the Deputy Prime Minister talking nonsense—again?
Mr Browne: I think that what matters is what one does with the police. The team that wins the premier league is not the one with the biggest squad; it is the one that gets the best results, and that is what we are trying to do in policing.
We see a hallmark of old Labour, new Labour and the exciting latest version that is somewhere in between in the second criticism in the motion: the casual authoritarianism of criticising the Government for
“restricting the use of CCTV”.
Yes, we do believe that there should be some restrictions on CCTV. We are striking the right balance between enabling the police to use modern investigative techniques such as CCTV and DNA evidence, and the police are using those techniques to great effect, but at the same time protecting the right of innocent members of the public to not be subjected to constant and unregulated surveillance.
Labour’s third criticism reveals hostility to the idea of having democratically elected commissioners to increase accountability and give the public greater say in the policing of their community. That was a recurrent theme of the debate. That hostility, it must be said, is not shared by many Labour ex-Ministers, including two recent MPs, Tony Lloyd and Alun Michael, or by the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Prescott. If Labour Members are concerned about the election turnout,
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1031
perhaps they should start by getting those three to pull their fingers out, get campaigning and explain the rationale for their candidacy. Every Member of this House, elected as we are, should want election turnouts to be strong, and I am delighted that the profile of the elections is rising in Cleethorpes, Brigg and Goole, and Denton and Reddish. I believe that it will rise across England and Wales in the coming weeks.
Labour has to make up its own mind. During the debate, we have heard criticism of the Government on the one hand for spending too much money on PCC elections, and on the other hand, for not spending enough. Whatever the turnout, the House can be sure of this: the new PCCs will have a stronger mandate than the police authorities they are replacing. Many police authority members from all parties have done sterling work on behalf of their communities. We recognise and applaud that, but with the best will in the world, police authorities were hardly delivering public accountability and transparency: in the most recent survey, only 7% of the public were even aware that police authorities existed. We should not be fearful of giving the public a say, and parties in this House should not be discouraging people from participating in a democratic process. I hope that people will find out more and that they will vote.
Alan Johnson: Probably less than 7% of the public are aware that the hon. Gentleman exists. Does that mean he is doing a bad job?
Mr Browne: In the area where I stood for election, I got 49% of the vote, and I hope the figure will go up next time, but we will see; one can never take anything for granted. Labour got 5% in my area, which is 1% more than UKIP.
The final theme that runs through the Labour motion is deep, cautious, conservative resistance to fresh thinking and change. Beyond spraying around more and more borrowed money, we see no ideas, no imagination and a closed mind to reform. It is easy for Opposition parties to lapse into idle oppositionism—we have all been there—and in many ways Labour today reminds me of what the Liberal Democrats were like before we became a serious party of Government. The House may be interested to know that that trait is not new to Labour in opposition. Let me quote what a previous shadow Home Secretary said when his party was last out of government. I shall reveal the name: Tony Blair—
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Main Question accordingly put.
The House proceeded to a Division.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1032
The House having divided:
Ayes 218, Noes 287.
[6.59 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Wayne
Davies, Philip
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr Tom
Healey, rh John
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McDonnell, Dr Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Miliband, rh David
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Onwurah, Chi
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Yvonne Fovargue and
Jonathan Ashworth
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, rh Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Glyn
Davis, rh Mr David
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fallon, rh Michael
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Sir Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huhne, rh Chris
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Huppert, Dr Julian
Jackson, Mr Stewart
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Luff, Peter
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mark Hunter and
Mr Robert Syms
Question accordingly negatived.
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1033
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1034
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1035
Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con):
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you could use your good offices with the maintenance department of the House. The most important lift in Portcullis House has been out of commission for more than a month, which impedes our ability to get to
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1036
votes and to work and meetings on time. It should not be impossible in a modern, 21st-century Parliament to get a lift repaired in less than a month.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I am eternally grateful that I am not responsible for maintenance in the House of Commons, so strictly speaking that is not a point of order. The Leader of the House has heard the hon. Gentleman’s comments and I am sure that he will take the matter further. I should also say to the hon. Gentleman that the last Division was not exactly unexpected in its timing. I am sure that Members bear such things in mind.
Business without Debate
European Union Documents
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)),
That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 18257/10 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a draft Directive on control of major accident hazards involving dangerous substances; and welcomes the Government’s efforts, during the negotiations on the Directive, to secure appropriate controls on sites with major accident potential while ensuring that the burdens on operators and regulators of such sites are kept to a minimum.—(Nicky Morgan.)
Delegated Legislation (Committees)
That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Church of England Marriage (Amendment) Measure, which was laid before this House on 19 October, be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Nicky Morgan.)
Petition
The Green Howards
7.17 pm
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): This is a petition on the 2nd Battalion, the Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards. The petition states:
The Petition of residents of Teesside and North Yorkshire,
Declares that the 2nd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards), who served this country loyally since 1688, is both a symbol of and major employer in both Teesside and North Yorkshire.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Defence to safeguard the jobs of the battalion’s soldiers, and that it further urges the Secretary of State to protect the battalion’s name, badge and proud heritage.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1037
Onshore Gas
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.)
7.18 pm
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): I am delighted to have secured this evening’s Adjournment debate on an extremely important issue. Many of the issues related to onshore gas exploration and extraction are, rightly, of concern to residents in my constituency and throughout the country. I am pleased to see a number of my hon. and right hon. Friends present and taking a keen interest in the debate. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), who recently secured a Westminster Hall debate on wider energy interests in Lancashire. I know that he, like me, is concerned for the well-being of not only the environment in the county but the well-being of all our constituents. The issue is not just prevalent in Lancashire. Shale gas reserves have been found in the constituencies of a number of other right hon. and hon. Members, so it is right that we have this debate. It is timely, because any decision on the future of the industry is still to be made.
I pay tribute to the previous Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), for his work on the matter. It was my privilege to work as his Parliamentary Private Secretary for two years, and I know how hard he worked on this issue and many others. I wish him well in what he does next.
I have subsequently had the opportunity to meet the new Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), on several occasions to talk about regulations on shale gas and more widely. I know that he takes the issue as seriously as I do, and I am grateful for all that he has done to date. I am pleased that he will be responding to this evening’s debate.
The issue that we have come here to discuss is extremely important, particularly in Fylde, where, as my hon. Friend the Minister knows, two earth tremors were triggered by the actions of Cuadrilla Resources last year when the Preese Hall gas well was fracked. As a resident of St Anne’s myself, I know at first hand the concern that that has generated. It left many constituents worried about the way in which the process is regulated.
It must be said that we have come some distance since then in understanding what is required and in making improvements to the regulations surrounding the emerging industry. Notably, there is the traffic light system to ensure that tremors are unlikely to occur again, which is most welcome. I am further pleased that I have received assurances from the Minister that his Department is taking on board recommendations from the reports of both the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering on shale gas.
I was also most grateful that my calls for a shale gas strategy group to be established, encompassing the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Health and Safety Executive and the Environment Agency, were swiftly acted upon. Ensuring that there are no gaps in regulation and that there is cross-departmental understanding on shale gas is extremely important. I know that representatives of each organisation are working extremely hard.
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The debate is therefore not about bringing into question the expertise or integrity of the people involved in those regulatory bodies. I was extremely pleased that representatives of the HSE, the EA, DECC and Lancashire county council were present at a public meeting that I held in Fylde. I know that they were left fully aware of my constituents’ concerns and saw at first hand the level of research and knowledge that Fylde residents have accumulated over the past year. Rather, then, the debate is about supplementing their work to ensure that we achieve a gold standard of regulation.
We still have some way to go before we have a regulatory system in place for any potential stage of development. We need a system that addresses all concerns, that can be properly enforced and that sets an example to industry across the world. That is particularly important for the UK, where population density will always be a factor.
As it stands, what is supposed to happen is that DECC assesses and licences drilling, development and production activity; the environmental regulator with jurisdiction for the geographical area in question monitors and regulates the environmental aspects of shale gas fracking; the HSE monitors shale gas operations from a safety perspective; and the relevant planning authorities have a key role in considering the acceptability of the activities in question from the viewpoint of traffic movements, visual intrusion, consistency with local plans and so on.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the plans for gas storage in salt caverns in the Wyre estuary and the possibility of fracking are a dangerous combination, given what he said earlier about the risk of earthquakes and earth tremors occurring again?
Mark Menzies: My hon. Friend makes a valid point, which was touched upon in the debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood secured in Westminster Hall. I know that the Minister heard that point and is well aware of it.
Many of the people who have been involved in the process are experts in their field, but despite that, I do not believe that the regulatory system is robust or transparent enough to instil public confidence should permission be granted to the industry. That is why I am calling for an independent panel of experts to be set up without delay. Many questions and concerns still surround the shale gas process, and it is vital that we have a panel for three purposes: to look at each issue in detail; to fully appraise the risk; and to ensure that specific regulations are in place to deal with that. If part of the process cannot be dealt with safely through regulation, an alternative method should be found. If, however, an alternative way of carrying out that process is not possible, it must not be done.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) on securing this important debate. Does he agree that one key issue of regulation and safety, particularly in my constituency, is the impact on the water table? It is not yet clearly understood by all that many of my constituents draw water from their own boreholes directly from the water table, and do not receive mains water.
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Mark Menzies: My hon. Friend’s point is exactly the type of concern that I would want the panel to consider. It is a case of, “Bring everything out; let’s examine it independently, robustly and with integrity, and then let’s answer the questions”. I believe that the establishment of a panel is of the utmost importance and must be achieved forthwith. Should the Secretary of State give the go-ahead for the resumption of fracking, I will demand on behalf of my constituents intense scrutiny of all operations on the Fylde. Fracking rightly demands careful monitoring and full transparency, and I believe that work by the current regulatory bodies will be aided and enhanced by the presence of an independent panel of experts.
The panel is designed not to create more bureaucracy but to allow questions to be independently answered and solutions developed. It is crucial that the panel is open and accessible so that all interested parties—including Fylde borough council, which is about to establish a scrutiny group to look at this issue—have a means of getting their questions answered, and a body through which submissions can be made.
I have been assured that the technical competence of the regulators is not in doubt among those working in the industry, but the perceived lack of transparency, engagement and on-the-ground presence is prompting fears among many in the local communities that the industry does not receive sufficient oversight. We must therefore ensure that the UK continues its proud record of having world-leading energy regulators. Due to the developmental nature of the process in the UK, it is vital that we support the work of current regulatory bodies. In no uncertain terms can we allow the environment or the well-being of our constituents to be compromised.
Cuadrilla Resources is still unaware of how much shale gas it will be able to recover. Although the reserves may be considerable, it is unclear what level of gas can be recovered, or even if that is commercially viable. I urge the Minister to ensure that once that information is available, the panel will look at its impact on all key aspects of the local economy.
As I have told the Minister on previous occasions, constituents have raised with me a number of concerns that I would, in future, expect to be addressed by the panel. Those concerns are wide ranging and often technical in nature, but given the time allowed for this debate, it is not possible to go into each one in detail. Some concerns, however, are particularly worthy of mention.
First, many of my constituents are concerned that there are no specific onshore exploration regulations. The offshore regulations, developed in the 1990s following the Piper Alpha disaster, are perhaps not sufficient to address all the issues that arise from moving a process onshore, especially in a relatively populated area such as Fylde.
Secondly, although I welcome the environmental assessment being undertaken by the Environment Agency, I call for environmental impact studies to be undertaken on any proposed site, regardless of size. Furthermore, does the Minister have any plans to encourage a health impact assessment in a similar vein? A number of constituents have raised that issue with me, many of whom live within a couple of miles of potential fracking sites.
Importantly, the number of shale gas pads that would be developed in Fylde has been under speculation. We
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must take into account the population density and beautiful countryside of Fylde, and it would be completely unacceptable for that to be compromised by the proliferation of those sites. I speculate that similar situations will arise where shale gas reserves are discovered in other areas of the country. I therefore urge the Minister to ensure that any shale gas operator is fully transparent on the location and number of production pads that they seek to develop, and that the planning process is sufficiently rigorous.
Knowing the countryside of Fylde as I do, I know it would be completely unacceptable to take many sites to extraction phase. For example, I would consider the current site at Anna’s road, where exploratory drilling is taking place, to be an unacceptable location for extraction to occur. I would vehemently oppose its development as such.
If you will forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall list other issues worthy of mention: the storage and disposal of fracking flow-back water; cement quality and the inspection of cement bond logs; the potential for subsidence; the examination of formation integrity tests as they are executed; surface methane detection; the publication of fracking chemicals used at each well; visual impact; impacts on local animals and welfare; potential flaring; and what happens to a site when it is no longer in use. It is important to note that that is not an exhaustive list, but it goes some way to highlighting the issues that I would expect the panel to look into—and it should explain its conclusions to the public. I appreciate that such a regime would require further funding, but for the panel to work, it is important that it is adequately resourced. We should not be putting a price on environmental considerations in my constituency or wider afield.
In a letter from June this year, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change assured me that, if the decision is to permit further fracking, he will respond in detail to the points directly linked to the exploration activities and on what further steps might be necessary to ensure the effectiveness of a regulatory regime throughout any future production phase. Will the Minister reiterate this pledge to the Secretary of State if such a decision is taken?
I have called for the establishment of a committee of independent experts to look at all aspects of the process. Will the Minister take personal responsibility to ensure that that is done, and will he personally oversee the work of the committee, because it must be robust and of a Rolls-Royce standard? In the event of the Secretary of State giving permission for the shale gas industry to move from the exploration phase to the extraction phase, the panel should not only continue, but ramp up its work and take on the responsibility for scrutinising the onshore gas sector. Drawing on perceptions that have been formed from this point onwards, I would expect regular and thorough on-the-ground inspections from each regulator body; regulations that are rigorously enforced; and considerable sanctions brought to bear should any breach of such regulations take place.
I have not addressed other aspects of the industry, such as how the gas, once extracted, would get to the grid, how the potentially large revenues could be shared with the local community, or how shale gas could play a part in our energy mix in future. I expect the Minister and his fellow Ministers will take those issues on board
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and address them in due course should we ever get to that point. Shale gas might well have a role to play in our energy future, but that can happen only if it is backed up by a robust, open and exhaustive regulatory regime.
I will continue to pay close attention to the matter and will have no fear in raising my concerns or those of my constituents should we feel that progress is not being made. I am sure the Minister would expect no less of me. I have said in the House on many occasions that Fylde is a beautiful place to represent. I will continue to do everything within my ability to ensure that neither the environment nor the economy of this precious corner of our green and pleasant land are ever compromised.
7.33 pm
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes): My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) has secured this debate and, in doing so, has illustrated once again that he personifies both rigour and vigour in the defence of his constituents, and I congratulate him on doing so.
The arrival of shale gas exploration in the UK in 2010, with operations almost wholly concentrated in my hon. Friend’s constituency, has quite understandably raised concerns among local residents and others about its impact. It is a new industry to Britain, and it is potentially intrusive. We need to be mindful of the amenity locally and the safety of the community.
My hon. Friend is clearly well acquainted with both the mechanics and potential impacts of the operations in both the current exploration phase and what might be expected if exploration is successful and the company involved develops a larger-scale operation to extract the resource.
The House will know that shale gas production has had a huge impact in the United States of America. It has had a major impact on supply and driven the price of gas below what could reasonably have been predicted only a few years ago. It has happened very quickly—over perhaps just 20 years—with a truly remarkable increase over the last five. When it started, this rapid expansion was mainly located in relatively sparsely populated areas. It is important to understand that the difference between the United Kingdom and the United States, in these terms, concerns both geology and geography. More recently, however, there has been an expansion into more populated areas and the pace and scale of activity has given rise to concerns within communities over both the short and longer-term impact on their health, their local communities and their way of life.
It is worth describing a couple of the features of shale gas activity that differentiate it from more conventional oil or gas production: the use of boreholes that run horizontally through the shale formation, and the creation of permanent fractures in the solid rock along that borehole. Together, these enable the gas to flow more freely into the well, acting in a manner similar to tributaries draining the catchment of a river. The increased concern about these techniques, particularly the creation of fractures—fracking—in north America coincided with the commencement of activities here in the UK in Fylde. Not unreasonably, our communities looked across
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the Atlantic and were genuinely worried by the reports, although often shown to be exaggerated, of what the impact might be here.
Not least in that was the portrayal of a US industry without effective regulation riding roughshod over local communities. This coincided with the emergence of a clear story of the failure of regulatory and operational control that led the Macondo disaster. Those worries were compounded when early activities in Fylde initiated small earth tremors, to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention previously and of which the House will be aware. This effect had not previously been reported in connection with shale gas fracturing, although they were associated with the drilling for hydrothermal energy and with large-scale waste water disposal.
It is quite right, therefore, that my hon. Friend should seek reassurance over the strength and coverage of the UK’s regulatory regime, and that he should seek further scientific and engineering reassurance that shale gas activities can safely move to an extraction phase. As I said, I will come to his specific points shortly, but first I will address some of the most prevalent concerns.
The first concern is aquifer pollution. There have been many reports in the US that shale gas operations have caused contamination of aquifers, and consequently of drinking water drawn from the aquifers, with fracking fluids or methane, and there have been reports of explosions and dramatic footage of householders setting light to their kitchen taps.
On investigation, some of those incidents, including that of the flaming tap, have proved to be unconnected to oil or gas operations—they were caused by contamination of water supplies by methane of recent biological origin—but there were cases in which the methane did originate from gas production. This has been attributed to unsatisfactory well construction or cementing. As the Energy and Climate Change Committee and the Royal Society have both commented, this demonstrates the importance of ensuring the integrity of the well. My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) drew attention to the concerns in his locality about the contamination of water, which might well extend beyond the immediate area, given how water travels. As for fracking fluids, one reported instance of aquifer contamination remains under investigation, but the present state of the evidence is that there are no confirmed examples of such contamination.
Concern in the US about the use of fracking chemicals in extraction is based largely on the fact that the chemicals and other substances used were not disclosed, apparently because of commercial secrecy. In that respect, the situation in the US is very different from the situation here, which is quite straightforward. Before commencing, anyone carrying out drilling operations must consult the Environment Agency, which will consider the possible impacts on the environment, including on groundwater. The agency has made it clear that it will require the disclosure of all chemicals and other substances that may be injected into the subsurface, so that it can assess whether there is any risk of harm through contamination of groundwater. It will also publish those details on its website and beyond. Operations by any operator will be assessed case by case by the relevant environment agency. The agencies have powers to prevent any activities that they consider to pose a threat to the environment, but the circumstances here are very different from those that prevail in the United States.
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Concern has also been expressed about water use and it is true that fracking for shale gas uses substantial quantities of water. Cuadrilla, the organisation involved in the exploration in the north-west, used about 10,000 tonnes for the well mentioned by my hon. Friend, but as that is a one-off use rather than a continuing demand it is unlikely to be of concern in most areas. By way of a comparison, 10,000 tonnes is only about 1% of the water that United Utilities Water supplies to the north-west every day. In any case, any abstraction of water for industrial purposes requires the permission of the relevant environment agency, which will not be forthcoming if the proposed abstraction is not sustainable in that area once account has been taken of existing and foreseeable demands.
The fourth area about which concern has been expressed is subsidence. It is important to understand that that concern is partly informed by experience in the North sea, where there has been significant subsidence under a drilling platform sufficient to require a major re-engineering of the platform to raise operating decks substantially. The producing rock in that case is chalk, however, which is more compressible than shale. The structure of shale is quite different and no significant compression of shale is expected as a result of gas extraction. The empirical evidence from the US supports that analysis, as despite the drilling of tens of thousands of wells and production experience over a decade or more there has been no report of subsidence attributable to shale gas production.
Let me turn now to my hon. Friend’s specific suggestions, which he has been assiduous in drawing to my attention today and previously. I have made it very clear that we will have a dialogue with those hon. Members who are affected and will allow them to express their concerns, which will be dealt with thoroughly, courteously and effectively—at least they will while I am around, because that is how I operate. I have taken the opportunity previously—I do so again today—to provide reassurances on a number of my hon. Friend’s most prominent concerns. In doing so, I am not attempting to fill the formal role he has proposed of providing independent scientific advice on the impacts of shale gas activity, although I have been able to draw on a considerable and growing body of scientific opinion.
The Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change carried out an inquiry into shale gas in 2011. It concluded that, provided good industry practice is followed and careful regulation applied, hydraulic fracturing or fracking is unlikely to pose a risk to ground water or aquifers. In addition, and on the more specific question of the implications and mitigation of fracture-induced seismic activity, my Department commissioned and is studying the findings of a report from an independent panel of scientific and engineering experts, which has been subject to public scrutiny, and deciding whether to permit the recommencement of fracking in Lancashire.
As my hon. Friend mentioned, this summer the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering provided an authoritative and comprehensive study of the potential risks of shale gas extraction and how they can be managed. It is fair to say that their conclusion was that the risks could be managed if best practice and firm regulation were applied. A number of recommendations
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were made for improving the scientific understanding of key aspects of the process—for instance, on induced seismicity.
I believe that the work has provided a sound basis for a decision on whether to resume exploration activity, but, as my hon. Friend has said, the scale of an eventual extraction phase would be different and, although many of the techniques are similar, the scale and introduction of production activities would give rise to additional scientific and engineering questions. I can as a consequence see considerable merit in building on that work, particularly on the excellent work of the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering, to provide a continuing means by which public concerns over the potential impacts of shale gas extraction can be examined. I am aware that there is a strong regulatory framework in place, not least through the Health and Safety Executive and the Environment Agency, whose purpose is protect against harmful activity. In addition, there is a stringent planning process to which any extraction phase must be subjected. I emphasise—my hon. Friend raised the point in his speech—that the scale of any application for continuing development would be subject to that planning process, and would, of course, be likely to be subject to a public inquiry if it was called in, which would allow the fullest possible examination by local people and local representatives of the implications of any applications.
Great care will need to be taken not to duplicate or weaken the existing statutory safeguards, but I will undertake to explore with my Department’s chief scientific adviser, Professor David MacKay, whether it would be possible to provide a mechanism or channel by which to provide authoritative responses to specific areas of scientific or engineering concern.
Furthermore, I hear what my hon. Friend says about oversight and coherence, and the need to involve Ministers directly in that oversight. Again, I shall give that full consideration and I hope to be able to return to this matter, with my hon. Friend and other hon. Members, and make some proposals on how lines of accountability and responsibility can be confirmed in new arrangements.
My hon. Friend is aware that we have already established a strategy group at official level to ensure full co-ordination of the work of the existing regulators. This is chaired by my Department and includes all those agencies. It has met regularly and is looking at the challenges; it will obviously ramp up its work as developments take place in the north-west. In parallel, the Environment Agency is currently undertaking a detailed review to ensure that it has the right powers and resources to protect the environment during the extraction phase. Other regulators, including the Department and the Health and Safety Executive, are involved in that review.
While shale gas is new to the UK, oil and gas activities are not. Drilling and production has been conducted onshore since the 1930s, and even fracking is an established technology. Few people know that the UK hosts Europe’s largest onshore oil field in Dorset, which has been producing oil for over two decades without harm to the environment or the community.
The regulators of these activities, particularly the HSE and the EA, are long experienced and are acknowledged as world class in their field. That is not to say, however—I assure my hon. Friend again—that I would rule out any improvements to the arrangements. If my hon. Friend will permit me, I will take the
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observations he has made into consideration and investigate what further steps can be taken, building on what we have, in order to give my hon. Friend and his constituents some further tangible assurance that the regulation of any extraction will be comprehensive, co-ordinated and well resourced.
Shale gas provides an exciting opportunity for this country. It should not be exaggerated, but neither should it be underestimated. It is critical, as my hon. Friend has rightly said, that it is conducted safely and with appropriate regulation. Where the regulation we have in place needs to be amended, added to or altered, it is
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important for Ministers to deal with it quickly and effectively. I assure him that that discussion will continue to take place, and I am more than happy to take a personal active interest in this matter so that he can assure his constituents and others that the Government are doing all that is necessary to make shale gas a great success. I thank my hon. Friend once again for giving me the opportunity to be able to say that this evening.
7.48 pm
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Deferred Division
That the draft Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 28 June, be approved.
The House divided:
Ayes 260, Noes 206.
AYES
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Barwell, Gavin
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cameron, rh Mr David
Campbell, Mr Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Crabb, Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Graham, Richard
Gray, Mr James
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hermon, Lady
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, rh Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Mr Richard
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Watkinson, Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Wright, Simon
Young, rh Sir George
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Ashworth, Jonathan
Bain, Mr William
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
David, Wayne
De Piero, Gloria
Dobbin, Jim
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Healey, rh John
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kennedy, rh Mr Charles
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr John
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonnell, Dr Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Miller, Andrew
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Mulholland, Greg
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Paisley, Ian
Pearce, Teresa
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reeves, Rachel
Reid, Mr Alan
Reynolds, Emma
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sarwar, Anas
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Ward, Mr David
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Question accordingly agreed to.
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1048
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1049
24 Oct 2012 : Column 1050