6.40 pm

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): We have had an interesting debate this afternoon on policing and the flagship coalition policy of police and crime commissioners in the 41 police authority areas outside London. It has been noticeable that we have heard only from Conservative and Labour Members of Parliament in this debate. No Back-Bench Liberal Democrat MP has spoken. Liberal Democrats seem to be standing in only 24 of the 41 police authority areas, despite their voting for the policy, but then perhaps they are still making up their mind on whether they support it or not.

There have been some excellent contributions to the debate, with many from the Humberside area. It is good that the Labour candidate in Humberside, Lord John Prescott, has had so much publicity this afternoon. It is noticeable that the Conservative candidate does not seem to feature very much at all.

Let me turn first to the contribution made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who spoke with great authority as a former Home Secretary. He reminded us of Labour’s achievement in government. He spoke about the reduction in crime levels, including the 64% reduction in domestic violence that we saw under the Labour Government, and the focus on that particular crime, which for many years had not been seen as a matter for the police. He also talked about the important role that the police play in partnership working and how important it is to ensuring that crime continues to fall.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1027

My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) raised the important issue of funding levels and the inequity of Surrey seemingly receiving more money than forces in areas such as the west midlands. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) spoke about London policing, with 463 fewer officers already in the Metropolitan police. She talked about knife crime and the concerns of young people in the capital. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) challenged the slogan used by the Prime Minister on Monday—“tough but intelligent”—in his speech on crime, which I think is the first he has made since becoming Prime Minister. My hon. Friend focused on the lack of intelligence in that slogan and in the policies that the Government have been pursuing over the past two and a half years. He also declared himself as a “proud pleb”.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) spoke as a Scottish MP, but from the perspective of someone with fresh eyes looking at what was happening with the elections. He talked about the fact that many people do not know that the elections are happening and about his experience with the police parliamentary scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said that she had been amazed and impressed during the time she spent with the police. She talked about the important concept of policing by consent and the impact of cuts in her constituency.

My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) also spoke about his experience on the police parliamentary scheme and, again, the effect of cuts in his constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) spoke about the complexities of policing and the politicisation of the police through the policies that the Government are pursuing. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) talked about the shambles in Wales with the ballot papers and the cost that the taxpayer will have to pick up because of the Government’s failure to count days again, which seems to be a running theme.

Let me turn to the policy of having police and crime commissioners. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) stated, the elections will cost £100 million, plus the £350,000 that will have to be paid to put the ballot papers right in Wales. This flagship policy must be set against the backdrop of the fact that £100 million would pay for 3,000 new police officers. This is at a time when 15,000 police officers are to be cut by 2015, and when we already know that 6,800 police officers have been cut from the front line in the first two years of this Parliament, which is more than experts had predicted would be cut in the whole of the Parliament. There is real concern, too, about the headlong rush into mass privatisation, and the failure to learn the lessons from what happened this summer with G4S.

Over the past four weeks the policing story dominating the airwaves has been a senior Cabinet Minister swearing at police officers and reportedly calling them “plebs”. In the past two and a half years, the coalition has made the job of being a police officer much harder. It has restricted the use of CCTV and DNA, it is weakening antisocial behaviour orders and it has cut funding to work with communities, and young people in particular.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1028

Labour opposed the police and crime commissioner model for very good reasons, but in the coming election we cannot leave policing to the Tory candidates alone, who we know are cheerleaders for cutting front-line police officers. The issues are far too important for us to stand aside. We are opposed, however, to these elections being held in one of the darkest and coldest months of the year. Well the Minister explain why we are having these elections in November? Is this a deal that the Liberal Democrats did because they did not want an election in May, when they were going to do so badly in the local council elections?

For the record, let us be clear: the Liberal Democrats voted in favour of setting up the PCCs, with all the associated election and salary costs. Labour voted against that. Labour would much rather spend the money on front-line policing and cutting crime further, not cutting police numbers. The Liberal Democrats promised 3,000 extra police at the 2010 general election, in full knowledge of the deficit. When does the Minister expect to deliver on that promise?

At the end of 2009, the Liberal Democrats released some research that said the Government should recruit 10,000 more police officers. Their leader, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), said if that were done, an “extra 82,265 crimes” would be solved each year. He said:

“The Liberal Democrats are the only party who wants to catch more criminals by putting more police on the street.”

Given their record and what they have said, it is unsurprising that the Liberal Democrats have chickened out of standing in many of the PCC elections.

In an article in The Daily Telegraph, the former police Minister, the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), says that having TV adverts

“cunningly placed during Downton Abbey”

and “The X Factor” will ensure that people go out to vote. How naive. When I was in Nottingham earlier this week with our excellent candidate Paddy Tipping knocking on doors and talking to individuals, nobody knew about the elections. I am very sceptical about the comment of the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice that 85% of people will see these advertisements. I repeat the comment of senior police figure Peter Neyroud on these elections:

“If you could have constructed a manual on how not to conduct an election, the Home Office have managed to tick off just about every element of it”.

The Electoral Reform Society has warned that this threatens

“to result in the lowest turnout of any nationwide election in British history.”

We are holding the elections in November when holding elections is much more expensive than at other times of the year. Doing so will also drive down turnout, and the elections are unpopular with the public in any case. Instead of a free post or a Government-backed booklet with information about the candidates to be sent to each voter, individuals can only go on to the Government website. Some 71% of over-75s have never used the internet, and neither have almost 20% of people in Wales. At a time when we want to encourage people to vote, the Government are immediately putting electors at a disadvantage. Belatedly, we are now told that there will be a telephone number that voters can call to ask for information to be sent.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1029

What level of turnout is the Minister looking for to make these elections a success and give legitimacy to his Government’s flagship policy? As we have heard, the Minister said at his party conference that 20% is his aim. Is that correct? Interestingly, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice did not give him much support when he was challenged on this during his opening speech, so it seems that the coalition are split, again, on this matter.

In conclusion, Labour wants to accelerate progress in cutting crime, not make that more difficult. Under Labour, we had more police with more powers, and we sent more criminals to prison. The streets became safer and crime fell by 43%. The coalition has been rowing back on police numbers and police powers. Worse still, the coalition is going to squander £100 million of taxpayers’ money on this shambles of a PCC election, so I ask hon. Members to support the motion.

6.50 pm

The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne): I am grateful for the opportunity to conclude this debate. You have doubtless heard, Madam Deputy Speaker, of a khaki election, and we have the green and brown of the khaki coalition looking after police interests in England and Wales. It is ideal for me to have the opportunity to respond to the points raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House during the debate and to what I see as the four main criticisms made of Government policy in the Opposition motion. They are as follows: first, that the Government are not spending enough money—a recurring theme; secondly, that we are insufficiently authoritarian when considering the right balance between the power of the state and the liberties of the individual; thirdly, that we are too hasty, as a Government, in our enthusiasm for greater transparency and public engagement in policing; and fourthly—this is an overarching theme—that we are too enthusiastic overall about reform of the police service.

I shall go through those criticisms in the short time available. The first is that the Government are not spending enough money—this is what the motion describes as the “wrong-headed” pursuit of greater efficiency and value for money. It is, of course, always relevant to remind the House that the previous Government, having promised to abolish boom and bust, ended up presiding over an economy that went bust. The new Government came to office with our country looking down the barrel of a gun—we had a bigger deficit than Greece when we took office—and we had to make some difficult decisions to get to grips with that deficit. We have reduced the deficit, but this country is still borrowing a billion pounds every three days. Against that backdrop, it is just not credible to carry on spending money—borrowed money—with reckless impunity. The Government have no choice but to deal with the deficit, and as a service spending £14 billion a year, the police can and must make their fair share of the savings needed.

Underlying Labour’s analysis is a fundamentally flawed case, and I will sum it up for hon. Members. According to Labour, “The more money you spend, the better the results you get”—never mind cutting bureaucracy or getting good value for the taxpayer; it is spend, spend, spend. The problem is that the results do not bear out Labour’s analysis. Last week, the most recent independent

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1030

crime statistics were published. I am sorry to disappoint Labour Members, but crime has fallen. It has fallen by 6% over the past year and by 10% in the two years since this Government came to office. It has fallen by 12% in the last year

—[Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Mr Bryant, I ask you to stop shouting across the Dispatch Box now.

Mr Browne: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I was just reminding the House that the Government have presided over a 10% fall in crime in the past two years. The latest figures show that crime is lower in England and Wales than at any time since the official survey started in 1981. Chief constables are rising to the challenge of making efficiency savings and providing greater value for money. As Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has said:

“The front line is being protected”.

Police reform is working. We have swept away central targets and reduced police bureaucracy. That shows that how the police are deployed, rather than their absolute numbers, is the key to cutting crime.

Diana Johnson rose

Mr Browne: Before I give way, let me put it like this to Labour: the best way to measure the success of a service is not whether we have spent more and more money on it, but whether we have got better and better results.

Diana Johnson: So does the hon. Gentleman agree with what his leader said—that if there were an additional 10,000 police officers, 82,265 crimes would be solved each year? Does the Minister support that, or was the Deputy Prime Minister talking nonsense—again?

Mr Browne: I think that what matters is what one does with the police. The team that wins the premier league is not the one with the biggest squad; it is the one that gets the best results, and that is what we are trying to do in policing.

We see a hallmark of old Labour, new Labour and the exciting latest version that is somewhere in between in the second criticism in the motion: the casual authoritarianism of criticising the Government for

“restricting the use of CCTV”.

Yes, we do believe that there should be some restrictions on CCTV. We are striking the right balance between enabling the police to use modern investigative techniques such as CCTV and DNA evidence, and the police are using those techniques to great effect, but at the same time protecting the right of innocent members of the public to not be subjected to constant and unregulated surveillance.

Labour’s third criticism reveals hostility to the idea of having democratically elected commissioners to increase accountability and give the public greater say in the policing of their community. That was a recurrent theme of the debate. That hostility, it must be said, is not shared by many Labour ex-Ministers, including two recent MPs, Tony Lloyd and Alun Michael, or by the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Prescott. If Labour Members are concerned about the election turnout,

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1031

perhaps they should start by getting those three to pull their fingers out, get campaigning and explain the rationale for their candidacy. Every Member of this House, elected as we are, should want election turnouts to be strong, and I am delighted that the profile of the elections is rising in Cleethorpes, Brigg and Goole, and Denton and Reddish. I believe that it will rise across England and Wales in the coming weeks.

Labour has to make up its own mind. During the debate, we have heard criticism of the Government on the one hand for spending too much money on PCC elections, and on the other hand, for not spending enough. Whatever the turnout, the House can be sure of this: the new PCCs will have a stronger mandate than the police authorities they are replacing. Many police authority members from all parties have done sterling work on behalf of their communities. We recognise and applaud that, but with the best will in the world, police authorities were hardly delivering public accountability and transparency: in the most recent survey, only 7% of the public were even aware that police authorities existed. We should not be fearful of giving the public a say, and parties in this House should not be discouraging people from participating in a democratic process. I hope that people will find out more and that they will vote.

Alan Johnson: Probably less than 7% of the public are aware that the hon. Gentleman exists. Does that mean he is doing a bad job?

Mr Browne: In the area where I stood for election, I got 49% of the vote, and I hope the figure will go up next time, but we will see; one can never take anything for granted. Labour got 5% in my area, which is 1% more than UKIP.

The final theme that runs through the Labour motion is deep, cautious, conservative resistance to fresh thinking and change. Beyond spraying around more and more borrowed money, we see no ideas, no imagination and a closed mind to reform. It is easy for Opposition parties to lapse into idle oppositionism—we have all been there—and in many ways Labour today reminds me of what the Liberal Democrats were like before we became a serious party of Government. The House may be interested to know that that trait is not new to Labour in opposition. Let me quote what a previous shadow Home Secretary said when his party was last out of government. I shall reveal the name: Tony Blair—

Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1032

The House having divided:

Ayes 218, Noes 287.

Division No. 86]

[6.59 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Abrahams, Debbie

Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob

Alexander, Heidi

Ali, Rushanara

Allen, Mr Graham

Anderson, Mr David

Bailey, Mr Adrian

Bain, Mr William

Balls, rh Ed

Banks, Gordon

Barron, rh Mr Kevin

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, rh Margaret

Begg, Dame Anne

Benn, rh Hilary

Benton, Mr Joe

Berger, Luciana

Betts, Mr Clive

Blackman-Woods, Roberta

Blenkinsop, Tom

Blomfield, Paul

Blunkett, rh Mr David

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brennan, Kevin

Brown, Lyn

Brown, rh Mr Nicholas

Brown, Mr Russell

Bryant, Chris

Buck, Ms Karen

Burden, Richard

Byrne, rh Mr Liam

Campbell, Mr Alan

Campbell, Mr Ronnie

Caton, Martin

Chapman, Jenny

Clark, Katy

Clarke, rh Mr Tom

Coaker, Vernon

Coffey, Ann

Connarty, Michael

Cooper, Rosie

Cooper, rh Yvette

Crausby, Mr David

Creagh, Mary

Creasy, Stella

Cruddas, Jon

Cryer, John

Cunningham, Alex

Cunningham, Mr Jim

Cunningham, Sir Tony

Curran, Margaret

Dakin, Nic

Danczuk, Simon

David, Wayne

Davies, Philip

De Piero, Gloria

Denham, rh Mr John

Dobbin, Jim

Dobson, rh Frank

Docherty, Thomas

Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.

Donohoe, Mr Brian H.

Dowd, Jim

Doyle, Gemma

Dromey, Jack

Dugher, Michael

Durkan, Mark

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eagle, Maria

Efford, Clive

Elliott, Julie

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Engel, Natascha

Esterson, Bill

Evans, Chris

Farrelly, Paul

Field, rh Mr Frank

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Flello, Robert

Flint, rh Caroline

Flynn, Paul

Francis, Dr Hywel

Gardiner, Barry

Gilmore, Sheila

Glass, Pat

Glindon, Mrs Mary

Godsiff, Mr Roger

Goggins, rh Paul

Goodman, Helen

Greatrex, Tom

Green, Kate

Greenwood, Lilian

Gwynne, Andrew

Hain, rh Mr Peter

Hamilton, Mr David

Hamilton, Fabian

Hanson, rh Mr David

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Harris, Mr Tom

Healey, rh John

Hepburn, Mr Stephen

Heyes, David

Hillier, Meg

Hilling, Julie

Hodge, rh Margaret

Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

Hoey, Kate

Howarth, rh Mr George

Hunt, Tristram

Irranca-Davies, Huw

Jackson, Glenda

Jamieson, Cathy

Jarvis, Dan

Johnson, rh Alan

Johnson, Diana

Jones, Graham

Jones, Helen

Jones, Mr Kevan

Jones, Susan Elan

Joyce, Eric

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Keeley, Barbara

Lavery, Ian

Lazarowicz, Mark

Leslie, Chris

Lewis, Mr Ivan

Long, Naomi

Love, Mr Andrew

Lucas, Caroline

Lucas, Ian

MacShane, rh Mr Denis

Mactaggart, Fiona

Mahmood, Shabana

Malhotra, Seema

Mann, John

Marsden, Mr Gordon

McCabe, Steve

McCann, Mr Michael

McCarthy, Kerry

McClymont, Gregg

McDonnell, Dr Alasdair

McDonnell, John

McFadden, rh Mr Pat

McGovern, Jim

McGuire, rh Mrs Anne

McKechin, Ann

McKenzie, Mr Iain

McKinnell, Catherine

Meacher, rh Mr Michael

Meale, Sir Alan

Mearns, Ian

Miliband, rh David

Miliband, rh Edward

Miller, Andrew

Mitchell, Austin

Morrice, Graeme

(Livingston)

Morris, Grahame M.

(Easington)

Mudie, Mr George

Munn, Meg

Murphy, rh Mr Jim

Murphy, rh Paul

Murray, Ian

Nandy, Lisa

Nash, Pamela

Onwurah, Chi

Owen, Albert

Pearce, Teresa

Phillipson, Bridget

Pound, Stephen

Raynsford, rh Mr Nick

Reed, Mr Jamie

Reeves, Rachel

Reynolds, Emma

Ritchie, Ms Margaret

Robertson, John

Robinson, Mr Geoffrey

Rotheram, Steve

Roy, Lindsay

Ruane, Chris

Sarwar, Anas

Seabeck, Alison

Shannon, Jim

Sharma, Mr Virendra

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Sheridan, Jim

Shuker, Gavin

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Slaughter, Mr Andy

Smith, rh Mr Andrew

Smith, Angela

Smith, Nick

Spellar, rh Mr John

Stringer, Graham

Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry

Tami, Mark

Thomas, Mr Gareth

Thornberry, Emily

Timms, rh Stephen

Trickett, Jon

Turner, Karl

Twigg, Derek

Umunna, Mr Chuka

Vaz, rh Keith

Vaz, Valerie

Walley, Joan

Watson, Mr Tom

Watts, Mr Dave

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Williams, Hywel

Williamson, Chris

Wilson, Phil

Wilson, Sammy

Winnick, Mr David

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Woodward, rh Mr Shaun

Wright, David

Wright, Mr Iain

Tellers for the Ayes:

Yvonne Fovargue and

Jonathan Ashworth

NOES

Adams, Nigel

Aldous, Peter

Amess, Mr David

Andrew, Stuart

Bacon, Mr Richard

Baker, Norman

Baker, Steve

Baldry, Sir Tony

Baldwin, Harriett

Barclay, Stephen

Barker, rh Gregory

Beith, rh Sir Alan

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Benyon, Richard

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Bingham, Andrew

Binley, Mr Brian

Birtwistle, Gordon

Blackman, Bob

Blunt, Mr Crispin

Bone, Mr Peter

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brake, rh Tom

Bray, Angie

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Brooke, Annette

Browne, Mr Jeremy

Bruce, Fiona

Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burley, Mr Aidan

Burns, Conor

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burstow, rh Paul

Burt, Alistair

Burt, Lorely

Cairns, Alun

Campbell, rh Sir Menzies

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair

Carmichael, Neil

Cash, Mr William

Chishti, Rehman

Chope, Mr Christopher

Clappison, Mr James

Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Cox, Mr Geoffrey

Crabb, Stephen

Crockart, Mike

Crouch, Tracey

Davies, Glyn

Davis, rh Mr David

de Bois, Nick

Dinenage, Caroline

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen

Dorries, Nadine

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Duddridge, James

Duncan, rh Mr Alan

Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Jonathan

Evennett, Mr David

Fallon, rh Michael

Field, Mark

Foster, rh Mr Don

Fox, rh Dr Liam

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Freeman, George

Freer, Mike

Fuller, Richard

Gale, Sir Roger

Garnier, Sir Edward

Garnier, Mark

George, Andrew

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gilbert, Stephen

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goldsmith, Zac

Graham, Richard

Grant, Mrs Helen

Gray, Mr James

Green, rh Damian

Greening, rh Justine

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Hames, Duncan

Hammond, Stephen

Hands, Greg

Harper, Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Harvey, Sir Nick

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, Mr John

Heald, Oliver

Heath, Mr David

Hemming, John

Henderson, Gordon

Herbert, rh Nick

Hinds, Damian

Hoban, Mr Mark

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Holloway, Mr Adam

Hopkins, Kris

Horwood, Martin

Howell, John

Hughes, rh Simon

Huhne, rh Chris

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Huppert, Dr Julian

Jackson, Mr Stewart

Javid, Sajid

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, rh Mr David

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kelly, Chris

Kennedy, rh Mr Charles

Kirby, Simon

Knight, rh Mr Greg

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Lancaster, Mark

Lansley, rh Mr Andrew

Latham, Pauline

Laws, rh Mr David

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Jessica

Lee, Dr Phillip

Leech, Mr John

Leigh, Mr Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Letwin, rh Mr Oliver

Lewis, Brandon

Lewis, Dr Julian

Lloyd, Stephen

Lopresti, Jack

Lord, Jonathan

Luff, Peter

Macleod, Mary

Main, Mrs Anne

Maynard, Paul

McCartney, Jason

McCartney, Karl

McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick

McPartland, Stephen

McVey, Esther

Menzies, Mark

Miller, rh Maria

Mills, Nigel

Milton, Anne

Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew

Moore, rh Michael

Morgan, Nicky

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Morris, James

Mosley, Stephen

Mowat, David

Mulholland, Greg

Mundell, rh David

Munt, Tessa

Murray, Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Neill, Robert

Newmark, Mr Brooks

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

Offord, Dr Matthew

Ollerenshaw, Eric

Opperman, Guy

Paice, rh Sir James

Parish, Neil

Patel, Priti

Paterson, rh Mr Owen

Pawsey, Mark

Penrose, John

Percy, Andrew

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Pickles, rh Mr Eric

Pincher, Christopher

Poulter, Dr Daniel

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pugh, John

Raab, Mr Dominic

Randall, rh Mr John

Reckless, Mark

Redwood, rh Mr John

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Reevell, Simon

Reid, Mr Alan

Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm

Robathan, rh Mr Andrew

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Rogerson, Dan

Rudd, Amber

Ruffley, Mr David

Russell, Sir Bob

Rutley, David

Sanders, Mr Adrian

Sandys, Laura

Scott, Mr Lee

Selous, Andrew

Shapps, rh Grant

Sharma, Alok

Shelbrooke, Alec

Shepherd, Mr Richard

Simpson, Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Miss Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Smith, Sir Robert

Soames, rh Nicholas

Soubry, Anna

Spencer, Mr Mark

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Streeter, Mr Gary

Stride, Mel

Stuart, Mr Graham

Sturdy, Julian

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Swinson, Jo

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Tapsell, rh Sir Peter

Teather, Sarah

Thornberry, Emily

Thurso, John

Timpson, Mr Edward

Tomlinson, Justin

Tredinnick, David

Truss, Elizabeth

Turner, Mr Andrew

Tyrie, Mr Andrew

Uppal, Paul

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vickers, Martin

Walker, Mr Charles

Walker, Mr Robin

Wallace, Mr Ben

Ward, Mr David

Watkinson, Angela

Weatherley, Mike

Webb, Steve

Wharton, James

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittaker, Craig

Whittingdale, Mr John

Wiggin, Bill

Willetts, rh Mr David

Williams, Roger

Williams, Stephen

Willott, Jenny

Wilson, Mr Rob

Wollaston, Dr Sarah

Wright, Jeremy

Wright, Simon

Yeo, Mr Tim

Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mark Hunter and

Mr Robert Syms

Question accordingly negatived.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1033

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1034

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1035

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you could use your good offices with the maintenance department of the House. The most important lift in Portcullis House has been out of commission for more than a month, which impedes our ability to get to

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1036

votes and to work and meetings on time. It should not be impossible in a modern, 21st-century Parliament to get a lift repaired in less than a month.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I am eternally grateful that I am not responsible for maintenance in the House of Commons, so strictly speaking that is not a point of order. The Leader of the House has heard the hon. Gentleman’s comments and I am sure that he will take the matter further. I should also say to the hon. Gentleman that the last Division was not exactly unexpected in its timing. I am sure that Members bear such things in mind.

Business without Debate

European Union Documents

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)),

Major Accidents from Hazardous Substances

That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 18257/10 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a draft Directive on control of major accident hazards involving dangerous substances; and welcomes the Government’s efforts, during the negotiations on the Directive, to secure appropriate controls on sites with major accident potential while ensuring that the burdens on operators and regulators of such sites are kept to a minimum.—(Nicky Morgan.)

Question agreed to.

Delegated Legislation (Committees)

Ordered,

That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, entitled Church of England Marriage (Amendment) Measure, which was laid before this House on 19 October, be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Nicky Morgan.)

Petition

The Green Howards

7.17 pm

Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): This is a petition on the 2nd Battalion, the Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards. The petition states:

The Petition of residents of Teesside and North Yorkshire,

Declares that the 2nd Battalion, The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howards), who served this country loyally since 1688, is both a symbol of and major employer in both Teesside and North Yorkshire.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Defence to safeguard the jobs of the battalion’s soldiers, and that it further urges the Secretary of State to protect the battalion’s name, badge and proud heritage.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.

[P001126]

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1037


Onshore Gas

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.)

7.18 pm

Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): I am delighted to have secured this evening’s Adjournment debate on an extremely important issue. Many of the issues related to onshore gas exploration and extraction are, rightly, of concern to residents in my constituency and throughout the country. I am pleased to see a number of my hon. and right hon. Friends present and taking a keen interest in the debate. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), who recently secured a Westminster Hall debate on wider energy interests in Lancashire. I know that he, like me, is concerned for the well-being of not only the environment in the county but the well-being of all our constituents. The issue is not just prevalent in Lancashire. Shale gas reserves have been found in the constituencies of a number of other right hon. and hon. Members, so it is right that we have this debate. It is timely, because any decision on the future of the industry is still to be made.

I pay tribute to the previous Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), for his work on the matter. It was my privilege to work as his Parliamentary Private Secretary for two years, and I know how hard he worked on this issue and many others. I wish him well in what he does next.

I have subsequently had the opportunity to meet the new Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), on several occasions to talk about regulations on shale gas and more widely. I know that he takes the issue as seriously as I do, and I am grateful for all that he has done to date. I am pleased that he will be responding to this evening’s debate.

The issue that we have come here to discuss is extremely important, particularly in Fylde, where, as my hon. Friend the Minister knows, two earth tremors were triggered by the actions of Cuadrilla Resources last year when the Preese Hall gas well was fracked. As a resident of St Anne’s myself, I know at first hand the concern that that has generated. It left many constituents worried about the way in which the process is regulated.

It must be said that we have come some distance since then in understanding what is required and in making improvements to the regulations surrounding the emerging industry. Notably, there is the traffic light system to ensure that tremors are unlikely to occur again, which is most welcome. I am further pleased that I have received assurances from the Minister that his Department is taking on board recommendations from the reports of both the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering on shale gas.

I was also most grateful that my calls for a shale gas strategy group to be established, encompassing the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Health and Safety Executive and the Environment Agency, were swiftly acted upon. Ensuring that there are no gaps in regulation and that there is cross-departmental understanding on shale gas is extremely important. I know that representatives of each organisation are working extremely hard.

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The debate is therefore not about bringing into question the expertise or integrity of the people involved in those regulatory bodies. I was extremely pleased that representatives of the HSE, the EA, DECC and Lancashire county council were present at a public meeting that I held in Fylde. I know that they were left fully aware of my constituents’ concerns and saw at first hand the level of research and knowledge that Fylde residents have accumulated over the past year. Rather, then, the debate is about supplementing their work to ensure that we achieve a gold standard of regulation.

We still have some way to go before we have a regulatory system in place for any potential stage of development. We need a system that addresses all concerns, that can be properly enforced and that sets an example to industry across the world. That is particularly important for the UK, where population density will always be a factor.

As it stands, what is supposed to happen is that DECC assesses and licences drilling, development and production activity; the environmental regulator with jurisdiction for the geographical area in question monitors and regulates the environmental aspects of shale gas fracking; the HSE monitors shale gas operations from a safety perspective; and the relevant planning authorities have a key role in considering the acceptability of the activities in question from the viewpoint of traffic movements, visual intrusion, consistency with local plans and so on.

Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the plans for gas storage in salt caverns in the Wyre estuary and the possibility of fracking are a dangerous combination, given what he said earlier about the risk of earthquakes and earth tremors occurring again?

Mark Menzies: My hon. Friend makes a valid point, which was touched upon in the debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood secured in Westminster Hall. I know that the Minister heard that point and is well aware of it.

Many of the people who have been involved in the process are experts in their field, but despite that, I do not believe that the regulatory system is robust or transparent enough to instil public confidence should permission be granted to the industry. That is why I am calling for an independent panel of experts to be set up without delay. Many questions and concerns still surround the shale gas process, and it is vital that we have a panel for three purposes: to look at each issue in detail; to fully appraise the risk; and to ensure that specific regulations are in place to deal with that. If part of the process cannot be dealt with safely through regulation, an alternative method should be found. If, however, an alternative way of carrying out that process is not possible, it must not be done.

Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) on securing this important debate. Does he agree that one key issue of regulation and safety, particularly in my constituency, is the impact on the water table? It is not yet clearly understood by all that many of my constituents draw water from their own boreholes directly from the water table, and do not receive mains water.

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Mark Menzies: My hon. Friend’s point is exactly the type of concern that I would want the panel to consider. It is a case of, “Bring everything out; let’s examine it independently, robustly and with integrity, and then let’s answer the questions”. I believe that the establishment of a panel is of the utmost importance and must be achieved forthwith. Should the Secretary of State give the go-ahead for the resumption of fracking, I will demand on behalf of my constituents intense scrutiny of all operations on the Fylde. Fracking rightly demands careful monitoring and full transparency, and I believe that work by the current regulatory bodies will be aided and enhanced by the presence of an independent panel of experts.

The panel is designed not to create more bureaucracy but to allow questions to be independently answered and solutions developed. It is crucial that the panel is open and accessible so that all interested parties—including Fylde borough council, which is about to establish a scrutiny group to look at this issue—have a means of getting their questions answered, and a body through which submissions can be made.

I have been assured that the technical competence of the regulators is not in doubt among those working in the industry, but the perceived lack of transparency, engagement and on-the-ground presence is prompting fears among many in the local communities that the industry does not receive sufficient oversight. We must therefore ensure that the UK continues its proud record of having world-leading energy regulators. Due to the developmental nature of the process in the UK, it is vital that we support the work of current regulatory bodies. In no uncertain terms can we allow the environment or the well-being of our constituents to be compromised.

Cuadrilla Resources is still unaware of how much shale gas it will be able to recover. Although the reserves may be considerable, it is unclear what level of gas can be recovered, or even if that is commercially viable. I urge the Minister to ensure that once that information is available, the panel will look at its impact on all key aspects of the local economy.

As I have told the Minister on previous occasions, constituents have raised with me a number of concerns that I would, in future, expect to be addressed by the panel. Those concerns are wide ranging and often technical in nature, but given the time allowed for this debate, it is not possible to go into each one in detail. Some concerns, however, are particularly worthy of mention.

First, many of my constituents are concerned that there are no specific onshore exploration regulations. The offshore regulations, developed in the 1990s following the Piper Alpha disaster, are perhaps not sufficient to address all the issues that arise from moving a process onshore, especially in a relatively populated area such as Fylde.

Secondly, although I welcome the environmental assessment being undertaken by the Environment Agency, I call for environmental impact studies to be undertaken on any proposed site, regardless of size. Furthermore, does the Minister have any plans to encourage a health impact assessment in a similar vein? A number of constituents have raised that issue with me, many of whom live within a couple of miles of potential fracking sites.

Importantly, the number of shale gas pads that would be developed in Fylde has been under speculation. We

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must take into account the population density and beautiful countryside of Fylde, and it would be completely unacceptable for that to be compromised by the proliferation of those sites. I speculate that similar situations will arise where shale gas reserves are discovered in other areas of the country. I therefore urge the Minister to ensure that any shale gas operator is fully transparent on the location and number of production pads that they seek to develop, and that the planning process is sufficiently rigorous.

Knowing the countryside of Fylde as I do, I know it would be completely unacceptable to take many sites to extraction phase. For example, I would consider the current site at Anna’s road, where exploratory drilling is taking place, to be an unacceptable location for extraction to occur. I would vehemently oppose its development as such.

If you will forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall list other issues worthy of mention: the storage and disposal of fracking flow-back water; cement quality and the inspection of cement bond logs; the potential for subsidence; the examination of formation integrity tests as they are executed; surface methane detection; the publication of fracking chemicals used at each well; visual impact; impacts on local animals and welfare; potential flaring; and what happens to a site when it is no longer in use. It is important to note that that is not an exhaustive list, but it goes some way to highlighting the issues that I would expect the panel to look into—and it should explain its conclusions to the public. I appreciate that such a regime would require further funding, but for the panel to work, it is important that it is adequately resourced. We should not be putting a price on environmental considerations in my constituency or wider afield.

In a letter from June this year, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change assured me that, if the decision is to permit further fracking, he will respond in detail to the points directly linked to the exploration activities and on what further steps might be necessary to ensure the effectiveness of a regulatory regime throughout any future production phase. Will the Minister reiterate this pledge to the Secretary of State if such a decision is taken?

I have called for the establishment of a committee of independent experts to look at all aspects of the process. Will the Minister take personal responsibility to ensure that that is done, and will he personally oversee the work of the committee, because it must be robust and of a Rolls-Royce standard? In the event of the Secretary of State giving permission for the shale gas industry to move from the exploration phase to the extraction phase, the panel should not only continue, but ramp up its work and take on the responsibility for scrutinising the onshore gas sector. Drawing on perceptions that have been formed from this point onwards, I would expect regular and thorough on-the-ground inspections from each regulator body; regulations that are rigorously enforced; and considerable sanctions brought to bear should any breach of such regulations take place.

I have not addressed other aspects of the industry, such as how the gas, once extracted, would get to the grid, how the potentially large revenues could be shared with the local community, or how shale gas could play a part in our energy mix in future. I expect the Minister and his fellow Ministers will take those issues on board

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and address them in due course should we ever get to that point. Shale gas might well have a role to play in our energy future, but that can happen only if it is backed up by a robust, open and exhaustive regulatory regime.

I will continue to pay close attention to the matter and will have no fear in raising my concerns or those of my constituents should we feel that progress is not being made. I am sure the Minister would expect no less of me. I have said in the House on many occasions that Fylde is a beautiful place to represent. I will continue to do everything within my ability to ensure that neither the environment nor the economy of this precious corner of our green and pleasant land are ever compromised.

7.33 pm

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes): My hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark Menzies) has secured this debate and, in doing so, has illustrated once again that he personifies both rigour and vigour in the defence of his constituents, and I congratulate him on doing so.

The arrival of shale gas exploration in the UK in 2010, with operations almost wholly concentrated in my hon. Friend’s constituency, has quite understandably raised concerns among local residents and others about its impact. It is a new industry to Britain, and it is potentially intrusive. We need to be mindful of the amenity locally and the safety of the community.

My hon. Friend is clearly well acquainted with both the mechanics and potential impacts of the operations in both the current exploration phase and what might be expected if exploration is successful and the company involved develops a larger-scale operation to extract the resource.

The House will know that shale gas production has had a huge impact in the United States of America. It has had a major impact on supply and driven the price of gas below what could reasonably have been predicted only a few years ago. It has happened very quickly—over perhaps just 20 years—with a truly remarkable increase over the last five. When it started, this rapid expansion was mainly located in relatively sparsely populated areas. It is important to understand that the difference between the United Kingdom and the United States, in these terms, concerns both geology and geography. More recently, however, there has been an expansion into more populated areas and the pace and scale of activity has given rise to concerns within communities over both the short and longer-term impact on their health, their local communities and their way of life.

It is worth describing a couple of the features of shale gas activity that differentiate it from more conventional oil or gas production: the use of boreholes that run horizontally through the shale formation, and the creation of permanent fractures in the solid rock along that borehole. Together, these enable the gas to flow more freely into the well, acting in a manner similar to tributaries draining the catchment of a river. The increased concern about these techniques, particularly the creation of fractures—fracking—in north America coincided with the commencement of activities here in the UK in Fylde. Not unreasonably, our communities looked across

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the Atlantic and were genuinely worried by the reports, although often shown to be exaggerated, of what the impact might be here.

Not least in that was the portrayal of a US industry without effective regulation riding roughshod over local communities. This coincided with the emergence of a clear story of the failure of regulatory and operational control that led the Macondo disaster. Those worries were compounded when early activities in Fylde initiated small earth tremors, to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention previously and of which the House will be aware. This effect had not previously been reported in connection with shale gas fracturing, although they were associated with the drilling for hydrothermal energy and with large-scale waste water disposal.

It is quite right, therefore, that my hon. Friend should seek reassurance over the strength and coverage of the UK’s regulatory regime, and that he should seek further scientific and engineering reassurance that shale gas activities can safely move to an extraction phase. As I said, I will come to his specific points shortly, but first I will address some of the most prevalent concerns.

The first concern is aquifer pollution. There have been many reports in the US that shale gas operations have caused contamination of aquifers, and consequently of drinking water drawn from the aquifers, with fracking fluids or methane, and there have been reports of explosions and dramatic footage of householders setting light to their kitchen taps.

On investigation, some of those incidents, including that of the flaming tap, have proved to be unconnected to oil or gas operations—they were caused by contamination of water supplies by methane of recent biological origin—but there were cases in which the methane did originate from gas production. This has been attributed to unsatisfactory well construction or cementing. As the Energy and Climate Change Committee and the Royal Society have both commented, this demonstrates the importance of ensuring the integrity of the well. My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) drew attention to the concerns in his locality about the contamination of water, which might well extend beyond the immediate area, given how water travels. As for fracking fluids, one reported instance of aquifer contamination remains under investigation, but the present state of the evidence is that there are no confirmed examples of such contamination.

Concern in the US about the use of fracking chemicals in extraction is based largely on the fact that the chemicals and other substances used were not disclosed, apparently because of commercial secrecy. In that respect, the situation in the US is very different from the situation here, which is quite straightforward. Before commencing, anyone carrying out drilling operations must consult the Environment Agency, which will consider the possible impacts on the environment, including on groundwater. The agency has made it clear that it will require the disclosure of all chemicals and other substances that may be injected into the subsurface, so that it can assess whether there is any risk of harm through contamination of groundwater. It will also publish those details on its website and beyond. Operations by any operator will be assessed case by case by the relevant environment agency. The agencies have powers to prevent any activities that they consider to pose a threat to the environment, but the circumstances here are very different from those that prevail in the United States.

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Concern has also been expressed about water use and it is true that fracking for shale gas uses substantial quantities of water. Cuadrilla, the organisation involved in the exploration in the north-west, used about 10,000 tonnes for the well mentioned by my hon. Friend, but as that is a one-off use rather than a continuing demand it is unlikely to be of concern in most areas. By way of a comparison, 10,000 tonnes is only about 1% of the water that United Utilities Water supplies to the north-west every day. In any case, any abstraction of water for industrial purposes requires the permission of the relevant environment agency, which will not be forthcoming if the proposed abstraction is not sustainable in that area once account has been taken of existing and foreseeable demands.

The fourth area about which concern has been expressed is subsidence. It is important to understand that that concern is partly informed by experience in the North sea, where there has been significant subsidence under a drilling platform sufficient to require a major re-engineering of the platform to raise operating decks substantially. The producing rock in that case is chalk, however, which is more compressible than shale. The structure of shale is quite different and no significant compression of shale is expected as a result of gas extraction. The empirical evidence from the US supports that analysis, as despite the drilling of tens of thousands of wells and production experience over a decade or more there has been no report of subsidence attributable to shale gas production.

Let me turn now to my hon. Friend’s specific suggestions, which he has been assiduous in drawing to my attention today and previously. I have made it very clear that we will have a dialogue with those hon. Members who are affected and will allow them to express their concerns, which will be dealt with thoroughly, courteously and effectively—at least they will while I am around, because that is how I operate. I have taken the opportunity previously—I do so again today—to provide reassurances on a number of my hon. Friend’s most prominent concerns. In doing so, I am not attempting to fill the formal role he has proposed of providing independent scientific advice on the impacts of shale gas activity, although I have been able to draw on a considerable and growing body of scientific opinion.

The Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change carried out an inquiry into shale gas in 2011. It concluded that, provided good industry practice is followed and careful regulation applied, hydraulic fracturing or fracking is unlikely to pose a risk to ground water or aquifers. In addition, and on the more specific question of the implications and mitigation of fracture-induced seismic activity, my Department commissioned and is studying the findings of a report from an independent panel of scientific and engineering experts, which has been subject to public scrutiny, and deciding whether to permit the recommencement of fracking in Lancashire.

As my hon. Friend mentioned, this summer the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering provided an authoritative and comprehensive study of the potential risks of shale gas extraction and how they can be managed. It is fair to say that their conclusion was that the risks could be managed if best practice and firm regulation were applied. A number of recommendations

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were made for improving the scientific understanding of key aspects of the process—for instance, on induced seismicity.

I believe that the work has provided a sound basis for a decision on whether to resume exploration activity, but, as my hon. Friend has said, the scale of an eventual extraction phase would be different and, although many of the techniques are similar, the scale and introduction of production activities would give rise to additional scientific and engineering questions. I can as a consequence see considerable merit in building on that work, particularly on the excellent work of the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering, to provide a continuing means by which public concerns over the potential impacts of shale gas extraction can be examined. I am aware that there is a strong regulatory framework in place, not least through the Health and Safety Executive and the Environment Agency, whose purpose is protect against harmful activity. In addition, there is a stringent planning process to which any extraction phase must be subjected. I emphasise—my hon. Friend raised the point in his speech—that the scale of any application for continuing development would be subject to that planning process, and would, of course, be likely to be subject to a public inquiry if it was called in, which would allow the fullest possible examination by local people and local representatives of the implications of any applications.

Great care will need to be taken not to duplicate or weaken the existing statutory safeguards, but I will undertake to explore with my Department’s chief scientific adviser, Professor David MacKay, whether it would be possible to provide a mechanism or channel by which to provide authoritative responses to specific areas of scientific or engineering concern.

Furthermore, I hear what my hon. Friend says about oversight and coherence, and the need to involve Ministers directly in that oversight. Again, I shall give that full consideration and I hope to be able to return to this matter, with my hon. Friend and other hon. Members, and make some proposals on how lines of accountability and responsibility can be confirmed in new arrangements.

My hon. Friend is aware that we have already established a strategy group at official level to ensure full co-ordination of the work of the existing regulators. This is chaired by my Department and includes all those agencies. It has met regularly and is looking at the challenges; it will obviously ramp up its work as developments take place in the north-west. In parallel, the Environment Agency is currently undertaking a detailed review to ensure that it has the right powers and resources to protect the environment during the extraction phase. Other regulators, including the Department and the Health and Safety Executive, are involved in that review.

While shale gas is new to the UK, oil and gas activities are not. Drilling and production has been conducted onshore since the 1930s, and even fracking is an established technology. Few people know that the UK hosts Europe’s largest onshore oil field in Dorset, which has been producing oil for over two decades without harm to the environment or the community.

The regulators of these activities, particularly the HSE and the EA, are long experienced and are acknowledged as world class in their field. That is not to say, however—I assure my hon. Friend again—that I would rule out any improvements to the arrangements. If my hon. Friend will permit me, I will take the

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observations he has made into consideration and investigate what further steps can be taken, building on what we have, in order to give my hon. Friend and his constituents some further tangible assurance that the regulation of any extraction will be comprehensive, co-ordinated and well resourced.

Shale gas provides an exciting opportunity for this country. It should not be exaggerated, but neither should it be underestimated. It is critical, as my hon. Friend has rightly said, that it is conducted safely and with appropriate regulation. Where the regulation we have in place needs to be amended, added to or altered, it is

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important for Ministers to deal with it quickly and effectively. I assure him that that discussion will continue to take place, and I am more than happy to take a personal active interest in this matter so that he can assure his constituents and others that the Government are doing all that is necessary to make shale gas a great success. I thank my hon. Friend once again for giving me the opportunity to be able to say that this evening.

Question put and agreed to.

7.48 pm

House adjourned.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1047

Deferred Division

Public Bodies

That the draft Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 28 June, be approved.

The House divided:

Ayes 260, Noes 206.

Division No. 84]

AYES

Aldous, Peter

Amess, Mr David

Andrew, Stuart

Baker, Steve

Baldry, Sir Tony

Barclay, Stephen

Barker, rh Gregory

Barwell, Gavin

Beith, rh Sir Alan

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Benyon, Richard

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Bingham, Andrew

Binley, Mr Brian

Birtwistle, Gordon

Blackman, Bob

Blackwood, Nicola

Blunt, Mr Crispin

Boles, Nick

Bone, Mr Peter

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brake, rh Tom

Bray, Angie

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Browne, Mr Jeremy

Bruce, Fiona

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burns, Conor

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burt, Alistair

Burt, Lorely

Cameron, rh Mr David

Campbell, Mr Gregory

Campbell, rh Sir Menzies

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair

Carmichael, Neil

Carswell, Mr Douglas

Cash, Mr William

Chishti, Rehman

Clappison, Mr James

Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth

Clegg, rh Mr Nick

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Crabb, Stephen

Crouch, Tracey

Davey, rh Mr Edward

Davies, Glyn

Davies, Philip

de Bois, Nick

Dinenage, Caroline

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Duddridge, James

Duncan, rh Mr Alan

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Jonathan

Evennett, Mr David

Field, Mark

Foster, rh Mr Don

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Freeman, George

Freer, Mike

Garnier, Sir Edward

Garnier, Mark

Gauke, Mr David

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gilbert, Stephen

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goodwill, Mr Robert

Graham, Richard

Gray, Mr James

Greening, rh Justine

Grieve, rh Mr Dominic

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Hames, Duncan

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, Matthew

Hands, Greg

Harper, Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, Mr John

Heald, Oliver

Hemming, John

Henderson, Gordon

Hermon, Lady

Hinds, Damian

Hoban, Mr Mark

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Howarth, Sir Gerald

Howell, John

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Hunter, Mark

Huppert, Dr Julian

Jackson, Mr Stewart

James, Margot

Javid, Sajid

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kelly, Chris

Kirby, Simon

Knight, rh Mr Greg

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Laing, Mrs Eleanor

Lancaster, Mark

Lansley, rh Mr Andrew

Latham, Pauline

Laws, rh Mr David

Lee, Jessica

Lee, Dr Phillip

Lefroy, Jeremy

Leigh, Mr Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Letwin, rh Mr Oliver

Lewis, Brandon

Lewis, Dr Julian

Lopresti, Jack

Lord, Jonathan

Loughton, Tim

Luff, Peter

Lumley, Karen

Macleod, Mary

Main, Mrs Anne

Maude, rh Mr Francis

May, rh Mrs Theresa

Maynard, Paul

McCartney, Jason

McCartney, Karl

McIntosh, Miss Anne

McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick

McPartland, Stephen

McVey, Esther

Menzies, Mark

Metcalfe, Stephen

Miller, rh Maria

Mills, Nigel

Milton, Anne

Moore, rh Michael

Morgan, Nicky

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Mosley, Stephen

Mowat, David

Mundell, rh David

Munt, Tessa

Murray, Sheryll

Neill, Robert

Newmark, Mr Brooks

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

Offord, Dr Matthew

Ollerenshaw, Eric

Opperman, Guy

Osborne, rh Mr George

Paice, rh Sir James

Parish, Neil

Patel, Priti

Paterson, rh Mr Owen

Penning, Mike

Penrose, John

Percy, Andrew

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Pickles, rh Mr Eric

Pincher, Christopher

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pritchard, Mark

Pugh, John

Randall, rh Mr John

Reckless, Mark

Redwood, rh Mr John

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Reevell, Simon

Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm

Robathan, rh Mr Andrew

Robertson, rh Hugh

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Rudd, Amber

Ruffley, Mr David

Rutley, David

Sandys, Laura

Scott, Mr Lee

Selous, Andrew

Shapps, rh Grant

Sharma, Alok

Shelbrooke, Alec

Shepherd, Mr Richard

Simpson, David

Simpson, Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Miss Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Smith, Sir Robert

Spencer, Mr Mark

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Iain

Streeter, Mr Gary

Stride, Mel

Stunell, rh Andrew

Sturdy, Julian

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Syms, Mr Robert

Tapsell, rh Sir Peter

Timpson, Mr Edward

Tredinnick, David

Turner, Mr Andrew

Tyrie, Mr Andrew

Uppal, Paul

Vaizey, Mr Edward

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vickers, Martin

Walker, Mr Charles

Walker, Mr Robin

Wallace, Mr Ben

Watkinson, Angela

Weatherley, Mike

Webb, Steve

Wharton, James

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittaker, Craig

Wiggin, Bill

Willetts, rh Mr David

Williams, Roger

Williams, Stephen

Williamson, Gavin

Willott, Jenny

Wilson, Mr Rob

Wilson, Sammy

Wright, Simon

Young, rh Sir George

NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Abrahams, Debbie

Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob

Alexander, Heidi

Ali, Rushanara

Allen, Mr Graham

Ashworth, Jonathan

Bain, Mr William

Balls, rh Ed

Banks, Gordon

Barron, rh Mr Kevin

Bayley, Hugh

Beckett, rh Margaret

Begg, Dame Anne

Benn, rh Hilary

Benton, Mr Joe

Berger, Luciana

Betts, Mr Clive

Blenkinsop, Tom

Blomfield, Paul

Blunkett, rh Mr David

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brennan, Kevin

Brown, Mr Russell

Bryant, Chris

Buck, Ms Karen

Burden, Richard

Byrne, rh Mr Liam

Campbell, Mr Alan

Campbell, Mr Ronnie

Caton, Martin

Chapman, Jenny

Clark, Katy

Clarke, rh Mr Tom

Coaker, Vernon

Coffey, Ann

Connarty, Michael

Cooper, Rosie

Cooper, rh Yvette

Corbyn, Jeremy

Crausby, Mr David

Creagh, Mary

Cruddas, Jon

Cryer, John

Cunningham, Alex

Cunningham, Mr Jim

Cunningham, Sir Tony

Curran, Margaret

Dakin, Nic

David, Wayne

De Piero, Gloria

Dobbin, Jim

Docherty, Thomas

Dodds, rh Mr Nigel

Donohoe, Mr Brian H.

Dowd, Jim

Doyle, Gemma

Dromey, Jack

Dugher, Michael

Durkan, Mark

Eagle, Ms Angela

Eagle, Maria

Efford, Clive

Elliott, Julie

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Esterson, Bill

Farrelly, Paul

Field, rh Mr Frank

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Flello, Robert

Flint, rh Caroline

Flynn, Paul

Fovargue, Yvonne

Francis, Dr Hywel

Gardiner, Barry

George, Andrew

Gilmore, Sheila

Glass, Pat

Glindon, Mrs Mary

Godsiff, Mr Roger

Goggins, rh Paul

Goodman, Helen

Greatrex, Tom

Green, Kate

Greenwood, Lilian

Gwynne, Andrew

Hain, rh Mr Peter

Hamilton, Mr David

Hanson, rh Mr David

Harris, Mr Tom

Healey, rh John

Heyes, David

Hillier, Meg

Hilling, Julie

Hodge, rh Margaret

Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

Hoey, Kate

Hosie, Stewart

Howarth, rh Mr George

Hunt, Tristram

Irranca-Davies, Huw

Jamieson, Cathy

Jarvis, Dan

Johnson, rh Alan

Jones, Graham

Jones, Helen

Jones, Mr Kevan

Jones, Susan Elan

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald

Keeley, Barbara

Kennedy, rh Mr Charles

Khan, rh Sadiq

Lammy, rh Mr David

Lavery, Ian

Lazarowicz, Mark

Leech, Mr John

Leslie, Chris

Lewis, Mr Ivan

Long, Naomi

Love, Mr Andrew

Lucas, Caroline

Lucas, Ian

MacShane, rh Mr Denis

Mactaggart, Fiona

Mahmood, Mr Khalid

Mahmood, Shabana

Malhotra, Seema

Mann, John

Marsden, Mr Gordon

McCabe, Steve

McCann, Mr Michael

McCarthy, Kerry

McDonnell, Dr Alasdair

McDonnell, John

McFadden, rh Mr Pat

McGovern, Jim

McGuire, rh Mrs Anne

McKechin, Ann

McKenzie, Mr Iain

McKinnell, Catherine

Meale, Sir Alan

Mearns, Ian

Miller, Andrew

Morrice, Graeme

(Livingston)

Morris, Grahame M.

(Easington)

Mudie, Mr George

Mulholland, Greg

Munn, Meg

Murphy, rh Paul

Murray, Ian

Nandy, Lisa

Nash, Pamela

Onwurah, Chi

Osborne, Sandra

Paisley, Ian

Pearce, Teresa

Phillipson, Bridget

Pound, Stephen

Raynsford, rh Mr Nick

Reeves, Rachel

Reid, Mr Alan

Reynolds, Emma

Ritchie, Ms Margaret

Robertson, John

Robinson, Mr Geoffrey

Rotheram, Steve

Roy, Lindsay

Ruane, Chris

Sanders, Mr Adrian

Sarwar, Anas

Seabeck, Alison

Shannon, Jim

Sharma, Mr Virendra

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Sheridan, Jim

Shuker, Gavin

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Slaughter, Mr Andy

Smith, Angela

Smith, Nick

Spellar, rh Mr John

Stringer, Graham

Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry

Tami, Mark

Thomas, Mr Gareth

Thornberry, Emily

Timms, rh Stephen

Trickett, Jon

Turner, Karl

Twigg, Derek

Umunna, Mr Chuka

Vaz, Valerie

Walley, Joan

Ward, Mr David

Watson, Mr Tom

Watts, Mr Dave

Weir, Mr Mike

Whiteford, Dr Eilidh

Whitehead, Dr Alan

Williams, Hywel

Williamson, Chris

Wilson, Phil

Winnick, Mr David

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Wright, David

Wright, Mr Iain

Question accordingly agreed to.

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1048

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1049

24 Oct 2012 : Column 1050