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House of Commons

Monday 12 November 2012

The House met at half-past Two o’clock


[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Communities and Local Government

The Secretary of State was asked—

Town Centres

1. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): What steps he is taking to support town centres. [127611]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): Before I reply, I am sure that the whole House will join me in congratulating my right hon. Friend on his recent appointment to the Privy Council.

The Government have recently announced support to help revitalise more than 300 town centres in England through the town team partners scheme, which is in addition to the 27 Portas pilots that were announced in the summer. Building on this year’s success, we are delighted to announce another “Love your local market” campaign for next May.

Paul Burstow: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his kind remarks and for his answer.

Our town centres need to adapt to changing times and circumstances, and in particular the fact that we have an ageing society and growing numbers of people who suffer from dementia. The Prime Minister identified dementia as one of the Government’s key priorities, and the Government are working with the Alzheimer’s Society through the dementia challenge. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that his Department works with the Alzheimer’s Society to ensure that our town centres are dementia friendly?

Mr Foster: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his advocacy of the rights of people with dementia, and on his work in that field. He will be delighted to know that a couple of days ago the Prime Minister received the latest report on this issue, and I can announce that more than 20 cities, towns and villages have already signed up to become more dementia friendly. We are working with a wide range of groups within society, including leading businesses, high street banks and others, to find ways of going still further. For example, Tesco supermarket is training its staff to provide better support for customers with dementia, as are many of our banks.

John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Will the Minister condemn the disruption caused by far-right groups that, twice in the past month, have brought their extreme and racist demonstrations into Rotherham town centre, landing us with a bill of half a million pounds in policing costs and lost trade?

Mr Foster: I certainly do condemn that, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising the issue. The Department is taking a lot of steps to bring communities together, and we will shortly be announcing further funding for further such measures. The right hon. Gentleman will be delighted to know that only a few days ago, my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister announced a further £214,000 for the “TELL MAMA” campaign, which is about reporting acts of anti-Muslim hatred.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): People are delighted that Desborough and Kettering town centres are newly designated town team partners. When might

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they expect to receive the extra funding that goes with that designation?

Mr Foster: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his campaign to achieve that success for his constituents. The money available is £10,000, and some of the 300 successful towns have already received those funds. If the cheque is not quite in the post, I assure him that it will be fairly soon.

Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Are not the Government’s attempts to revive town centres undone by the appalling Growth and Infrastructure Bill, which allows major out-of-town retail parks to be designated of national significance? When will we have clear guidance and joined-up thinking on our town centres?

Mr Foster: The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. The national planning policy framework has a clear “town centre first” policy, and the Department is putting a large amount of funding into measures such as the Portas pilots schemes—and many others—to provide support for our town centres. The Government are supporting town centres, which have experienced real problems given the disastrous situation in which this country’s economy was left.

Audit Commission

2. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What progress his Department has made on developing proposals to reform the Audit Commission. [127612]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): The Government are abolishing the Audit Commission. I am aware that in the past my hon. Friend has raised cases—and there are others—of where the auditor’s costs have been high in relation to the objections raised. That is why we have included provisions in a draft Bill to make it absolutely clear that the auditor has discretion to reject

“frivolous, repeated or vexatious objections.”

Fiona Bruce: I am sure that my residents in Swettenham will be relieved to hear the Minister’s reply. Will he confirm that, under the new approach, there will be a role to play for local district auditors in better holding council expenditure to account?

Brandon Lewis: Yes. Importantly, with local district auditors, we have clear, local accountability to ensure that scandals such as Labour-run Corby’s £47 million Cube simply do not go unnoticed by residents.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is the Minister aware that the Audit Commission has fine, dedicated staff, many of whom have laboured under the uncertainty of not knowing whether they would have employment in future? What are we doing to look after those very good staff? Is he not aware that local auditors are very often more prone to corruption? How will he deal with that?

Brandon Lewis: That is an extraordinary comment to make about local external auditors, who have already shown local council savings of around 40%, which is

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part of the savings we can see for local councils, which they need to make. I met the new chairman of the Audit Commission recently. He is working with the teams, which are working well, towards the wind-down that will save this country around £650 million.

Unauthorised Development/Illegal Encampments

3. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): What steps he is taking to tackle (a) unauthorised development and (b) illegal encampments. [127613]

7. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the powers of local authorities to deal with illegal Traveller sites. [127618]

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): We have renewed councils’ powers to deal with illegal and unauthorised encampments. On 28 August, we sent new guidance to council leaders on how to best use these existing powers. We will also consult on giving councils greater freedom to stop unauthorised development related to caravans.

Andrew Bridgen: Over the past two years, there have been 78 reported incidents of illegal encampments in my constituency. Travellers are telling my local residents that they had better sell their properties to them now, because they will not be able to sell them at all when there is an encampment at the back of the property. That tends to undermine social cohesion in my constituency and people’s belief in the planning system. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government will ensure that all parts of our society are dealt with fairly and equally under the planning guidelines?

Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point. It is immensely important to ensure that communities are free from intimidation, and that all communities can safely go about their work in the sure and certain knowledge that the Town and Country Planning Acts treat people the same. That is why we have issued the guidance. There can be absolutely no excuse for any local authority not taking prompt action.

David Mowat: A recent case in Warrington has involved a group of Travellers being repeatedly moved on peacefully using section 77 directions to leave orders, but they move only a few hundred metres and the whole process starts again, costing time and money. Will the Secretary of State consider amending the order, such that people will be required to leave the local authority area and not just the site?

Mr Pickles: It is probably no comfort to my hon. Friend to learn that the number of caravans on unauthorised sites has gone down—in 2007, it was 21%, and it is currently 16%. However, with regard to directions to leave orders, under sections 62A to E of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, unauthorised campers commit an offence if they do not leave when directed to do so, or if they return to the district within three months after being directed, and the police may arrest and detain them.

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Right to Buy

4. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): What steps he is taking to inform social tenants of their right to buy. [127614]

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): My Department is bringing right to buy directly to tenants. This month, we are writing to around 100,000 households, including those in Milton Keynes. We have a dedicated website, social media and helpline, and are working with councils to provide specialist events for tenants.

Iain Stewart: Milton Keynes council has produced an excellent guide to right to buy. May I urge my right hon. Friend to share it with other local authorities that, for some reason, might be more reticent about promoting this excellent policy?

Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend is rightly proud of his council. The website is exemplary, as is the information available to tenants. We are committed to ensuring that people have a clear understanding of right to buy, which offers discounts of up to £75,000. I hope the Local Government Association takes note of that excellent piece of work.

Transitional Council Tax Grant

5. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): When he expects to announce the allocation of the transitional council tax grant to local authorities. [127615]

11. Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): When he expects to announce the allocation of the transitional council tax grant to local authorities. [127622]

17. Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): When he expects to announce the allocation of the transitional council tax grant to local authorities. [127629]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): The Government published on 18 October the grant allocations that local authorities will be able to claim if they comply with the terms of the transitional scheme. These are available on the departmental website. The deadline for claiming the grant is 15 February, and payments will be made by the end of March 2013.

Mr Watts: I thank the Minister for his response, but is he aware that my council, St Helens, will have to make £48 million of cuts over the next three years? The only way it can access the transitional funding and keep council tax down is by cutting services to the most vulnerable members of our community.

Brandon Lewis: I would be very disappointed if the hon. Gentleman’s council was affecting the most vulnerable in the community, as this Government have put in place protections for them, and the guidelines are clear about that. Those who are among the most vulnerable suffered from the doubling of council tax under the previous Government and saw the benefits bill more than double. It is important that councils protect the vulnerable,

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which is why this Government have put the new scheme in place, with the opportunity and the money from the transitional grant, to help them do just that.

Jenny Chapman: I have listened to what the Minister has said, and I have to agree with my council leader, Bill Dixon, that the Government are behaving like a bunch of headless chickens. They have had to introduce a new fund to make up for a policy that was not quite thought through. Why did they not think it through?

Brandon Lewis: Under the previous Government, the council tax benefit bill went from £2 billion to almost £4.5 billion. It is right that this Government are dealing with the deficit that the previous Government left us and sorting out the economic problem. We are letting local authorities deal with what they need to do locally, and we have put in place £100 million to protect the most vulnerable, whom councils such as the hon. Lady’s unfortunately seem to want to hit.

Yvonne Fovargue: Wigan is consulting on a number of proposals, all of which, by necessity, will hit the working poor, people with disabilities, or families with young children. Does the Minister believe that forcing councils such as Wigan to chase people in those vulnerable groups for money that they simply do not have is either fair or a good use of council tax payers’ money?

Brandon Lewis: Again, I hope that the hon. Lady’s authority will do what it is supposed to do and look after the most vulnerable. Instead of attacking the most vulnerable, it should be dealing with its back-office costs, cutting down on fraud and error worth £200 million last year alone, and taking advantage of this Government’s scheme to help the most vulnerable, while still bringing down the benefits bill, which the last Government sent from £2 billion to nearly £4.5 billion.

Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): The previous Government made absolutely no provision to continue the area-based grant, which provided important sustenance for communities such as mine in Hastings, so we are grateful that we have got the transitional grant. May I urge the Minister to consider looking carefully at whether councils such as Hastings can make additional efficiencies in order to justify additional access to the transitional grant?

Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. It was a pleasure to meet her, along with council leaders, just last week to discuss the transitional grant, which 12 authorities benefited from last year. We will certainly be looking at the issue she raises, and we will announce details of where we are with the transitional grant after the autumn statement.

Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Can the Minister confirm that, despite the pressures left on local government finances by the last Labour Government, pensioners’ council tax support will not be reduced?

Brandon Lewis: Absolutely. I am very happy to confirm that this Government are protecting vulnerable pensioners. Pensioners have saved and worked hard all their lives. They deserve security and dignity in retirement, and this Government are protecting their position.

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Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May I pay tribute to the work the Minister has done in securing the £100 million fund, and to his energy in protecting coastal town communities and ensuring that the transition works effectively?

Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Obviously we are doing what we can to ensure that the most vulnerable are well protected. It is just a shame that we have had to do that because so many Labour councils, such as Manchester and those of some hon. Members who have spoken today, have decided to take forward schemes that hit the most vulnerable. It is this Government who are doing their best to ensure they are well protected.

Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): This is an emergency relief scheme for Tory council candidates, and it is a shambles, is it not? The Secretary of State spent 12 months telling us he wanted local schemes; he has now had to design a national one. Because councils are getting back only a fraction of the money that has been cut, the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that it is not possible to design schemes that meet the criteria within the funding available. There is no clarity on whether councils will have to spend more money on consultation, and because the grant lasts for only a year, they will then have to design new schemes and consult on them again for 2014. Meanwhile, at the sharp end, the poorest people in the country are faced with bills that they cannot meet and the threat of being taken to court.

Mr Speaker: Order. We have got the drift of it.

Helen Jones: Would an omnishambles be an improvement on this?

Brandon Lewis: It is amazing that the party that left us with a council tax benefits bill that had more than doubled is now complaining that this Government are trying to sort out the economic mess we inherited. It is very simple: we are talking about a voluntary scheme, and if councils want to take it up, they can. They will have the money in March to help them through the first year and they can then take their schemes forward, but many councils will have structured schemes that protect the vulnerable in the first place. It is a shame that too many Labour councils are trying to affect the most vulnerable. This Government are doing what they can to protect them from badly run Labour councils.

Unitary Local Government

6. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Whether he plans to implement the proposals by Lord Heseltine for unitary local government. [127617]

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): No.

Mr Bradshaw: I have to tell the Secretary of State that my constituents in Exeter will be very disappointed by his reply, not least because one of his first acts in government was to take away their council’s hard-won unitary status. Given that both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have described Lord Heseltine’s report as excellent, why does he have such a problem with this particular part of it?

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Mr Pickles: It is indeed an excellent report, but I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the former permanent secretary to the Department, as its accounting officer, washed his hands of the unitary restructuring in Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk, demanding that Labour Ministers direct him to continue. He warned that it would

“impact adversely on the financial position of the public sector”.

He said:

“the evidence for such gains is mixed and representations that you have received provide no evidence to quantify such benefits”.

He also said:

“There is every likelihood of such judicial review proceedings being commenced.”

The system was a complete Horlicks, and that is why we abolished it.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): My right hon. Friend is right: the diversity of local government in England is very important, and there is no “one size fits all” solution. Does he accept, however, that it was the last Conservative Government who introduced unitary authorities in the first place, and that Wiltshire has been praised by my noble Friend Lord Heseltine for getting rid of five dual-tier district authorities and replacing them with one, thereby saving an enormous amount of money, keeping the council tax frozen, and getting rid of large layers of bureaucracy in the process?

Mr Pickles: I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend is at one with his local council. Of course I am not opposed to unitary authorities; what I am opposed to is the imposition on local authorities, from the centre, of costly reorganisations I am urging authorities, particularly small district authorities, to start to work together, to merge not just back-office but front-office functions, and to provide a much better deal for their people.

John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What is the Secretary of State’s problem? Fewer politicians, fewer chief executives, fewer local government press officers—why does he not just get on with it, and actually make some savings that the public will enjoy?

Mr Pickles: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not at one with his local council. I understand his frustration, but all the improvements that he wants—fewer press officers, fewer officials, lower costs—can be achieved by sensible local authorities that merge their front-office and back-office functions, and I for one would very much welcome that.

Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Notwithstanding the Secretary of State’s answer to the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), will he think again about some of the smaller unitary authorities, which experience real difficulties when demands are placed on them in respect of, for example, social care? If just one child requires 24-hour care, that can throw the entire budget out. Will he consider the need for larger unitary authorities?

Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend makes my point far more eloquently than I could. The problem was that the restructured authorities—one of which would have been Exeter—were too small. They lacked critical mass, and there was a risk that they would be unable to take the necessary steps. It makes much more sense for larger

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local authorities to deal with matters in a more strategic way, and to work together closely. The days when an authority could rely on having its own chief executive, its own director of social services and its own education director are long gone. Authorities must now look towards merging their functions.

Private Sector Rents (Outer London)

8. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): What assessment he has made of recent trends in private sector rents in local authority areas close to London; and if he will make a statement. [127619]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): There is no definitive source of data for rent increases at local authority level. What data we do have show an annual increase of between 0.9% and 3.3% to June 2012 nationally. For Slough, the Valuation Office Agency has published an indicative average rent of £750 over the same period. The figures for neighbouring boroughs range from £650 in Dartford to £1,200 in South Buckinghamshire.

Fiona Mactaggart: I feel tempted to give the Minister a geography lesson, but I will resist the temptation. Is he aware that spending in Slough on emergency housing provision for temporarily homeless people has gone up by 10 times in the last year? The reason for that is not an increase in homelessness; it is that landlords will not accept people who are being paid the local housing allowance rate as they prefer to wait for people being sent from London at higher rents and with premiums. What are Slough and other local authorities on the boundaries of London supposed to do about that?

Mr Foster: I think that all hon. Members are aware of that problem, as we all share it in our own constituencies. We are taking steps to address it, however. The hon. Lady should take a look at our latest moves that will make it easier for local authorities to use the privately rented sector. I can say to her that across the country some 30% of private affordable rental accommodation falls within the housing benefit levels, and we have invested £200 million to have more housing built specifically for that purpose. The key is to get more accommodation.

Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will not prosperous home counties such as east Berkshire and north Oxfordshire have to use our housing stock as effectively as possible? Will the Minister compliment housing associations such as Sanctuary Housing, which recently got together tenants in under-occupied property where children had grown up but had now left home, and tenants in over-occupied property, to see whether it was possible to arrange swaps so that the housing stock could be used more efficiently?

Mr Foster: I welcome what my hon. Friend’s local authority and many others are doing in that regard. We have put in place measures to make sure the limited accommodation that is available is made use of most effectively in precisely the way he describes, but the key is building more affordable housing, and that is what this Government are doing.

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Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab) rose

Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab) rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. Hyndburn has much to commend it, but it does not form part of a local authority area close to London. I call Karen Buck.

Ms Buck: With private rents in London in particular soaring and driving up homelessness, can the Minister tell us which of the following two statements is consistent with Government policy: the statement by the previous Housing Minister, the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), that homeless households should not be uprooted from their local communities and moved hundreds of miles away, or what is actually happening in the seven west London local authorities, who in their homelessness strategy have talked of their aim to manage the movement of households out of London?

Mr Foster: There is no evidence that across the board there are rising—or rocketing—rents as the hon. Lady described. Only on Friday we announced measures that will make it easier for local authorities to make use of the privately rented sector. We have also introduced measures to ensure that accommodation is appropriate, taking account of not only the accommodation itself but local facilities, including schools. That will help councils keep people in the local area.

Localism Agenda (Planning Policy)

10. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What progress he has made on implementing the localism agenda in respect of planning policy. [127621]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): I am pleased to say that 65% of local authorities have published local plans, and 200 frontrunners of neighbourhood plans are working hard to bring their plans into effect. We are working to revoke, subject to the environmental reports, the regional strategies that the last Government introduced and that were hated so much.

Philip Davies: Local referendum took place in Menston in my constituency. On a 49% turnout, 98% voted against a proposed 300-home development on previously green-belt land. Despite that, Labour and Lib Dem councillors from other parts of the Bradford district came over and voted to impose that development against the wishes of the local community. What is the Minister going to do about that, because until something is done, localism will seem a distant dream to my residents in Menston?

Nick Boles: It is fantastic that the people of Menston participate in democracy as vigorously as they do, and I am sure that almost 97% of them voted for my hon. Friend. I urge him to encourage his constituents to explore the possibility of a neighbourhood plan, as such a plan would enable them, rather than people from elsewhere, to determine the future shape of their community.

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My constituents have their doubts about the ability of neighbourhood plans to protect them. In Formby, a developer is talking about building affordable homes at the price of

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£300,000 on green-belt land in an area that floods. Will the Minister tell me what is in it for my constituents with that kind of proposal for developers, and what on earth happened to localism, because they cannot see any of it in Formby?

Nick Boles: What happened to localism is that local plans are coming in at a rate of nearly triple that achieved by the previous Government. We have neighbourhood plans that the previous Government never introduced, but which the hon. Gentleman’s party now claims to support. As a result of those plans, local wishes are being translated into planning policy, where people are willing to take responsibility for their communities.

Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): The Minister mentioned regional spatial strategies. The West Midlands RSS is proving harder to kill off than the Terminator. Will he please ensure that it appears next on his list for termination?

Nick Boles: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are as frustrated as she is by the way the European Court of Justice has put a very large spanner in the works. We are now conducting strategic environmental assessments to get rid of such plans, having created an assessment to bring that in. We have published five environmental reports, and the report for the west midlands will be published very soon. We will look at the results of that report before making a final decision, but our policy to revoke these unwanted, unloved strategies remains firm.

Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): In the spirit of localism, will the Minister take on board the concerns of the many councils that are against the centrally imposed relaxation of permitted development rights, such as Bromley, whose leader said it would result in an

“uncontrolled planning free for all”


“undermine the rights of our residents to voice their views on their surroundings”?

In the light of that, will the Minister allow councils to make their own decisions about whether they want to relax permitted development rights? When can we expect the consultation and why has it been delayed?

Nick Boles: Perhaps if the hon. Lady had checked, she would have discovered that the consultation was published an hour ago. Unlike her, I have met the leader of Bromley council. I explained to him that he retains, as do all local authorities, the right to issue an article 4 direction to set aside a particular permitted development where it is not appropriate for the area that they represent. That has always been the case and will remain the case with these permitted development rights, which are very popular across the country.

Household Waste

12. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): What initiatives his Department has put in place to support access by householders to municipal rubbish and recycling centres. [127623]

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The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): We are committed to the principle that householders have access to municipal rubbish and recycling centres where they can deposit waste and recycling without charge. The Department’s £250 million weekly collection support scheme will, where appropriate, support local authorities to invest in infrastructure, including municipal rubbish and recycling centres.

Gordon Henderson: I welcome that statement. Does my right hon. Friend understand that Kent county council is preventing council tax payers from accessing their waste recycling centres if they drive a privately owned pick-up truck, or a car decorated with advertisements for a company of any description? That Soviet-like diktat means that private motorists who possess only a pick-up truck are prevented from disposing of legitimate household waste, as are employees of companies that do not generate trade waste, such as driving school instructors. Does he agree with those policies?

Mr Pickles: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. Up until this point, I had never seen Kent county council as cigar-chomping commies, but I will certainly pass his remarks on to the leader of the council. Councils have a legal duty to provide a civic amenity site for households free of charge for local residents. It is in a council’s interest to offer those services to reduce fly-tipping and increase recycling. We oppose tip taxes. Indeed, it was the previous Government, a Labour-run Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, that actively considered introducing charging households as part of their bin tax agenda. We have consigned Labour’s bin tax to the dustbin of history.

Council Tax Relief

13. Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): What legal advice he has received on whether councils will have to carry out a new consultation process if they adopt a new scheme of council tax relief in order to qualify for the transitional council tax grant. [127624]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): As the hon. Lady may know, and as has been the practice of previous Administrations, the Government do not confirm or deny whether legal advice has been received on any issue. Whether further consultation is required is a decision for individual local authorities. Each local authority will have to make a judgment, taking into account the scope of its own initial consultation, the scale of any changes required and whether they require further consultation.

Teresa Pearce: Given that the Minister only weeks ago announced transitional relief should local authorities fulfil certain criteria, will he give them more time to consider and consult on the criteria by extending the deadline beyond 31 January, which is the date by which he said he would impose schemes?

Brandon Lewis: We are very determined to ensure that the local authorities applying for funding—bearing in mind that it is a simple scheme and that we will take the word of their section 151 officers—will have the money in advance and in full in March, which means a

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tight deadline. However, if local authorities and local authority leaders are looking at improving their scheme, in order to work with the Government’s scheme to protect the most vulnerable, they should challenge their officers over whether they need consultation.

4G Spectrum Revenue

14. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Whether he has had discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on using the revenue received by the Exchequer from the forthcoming auction of the 4G mobile telephone spectrum to fund the building of affordable homes. [127626]

16. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): If he will estimate the potential number of affordable homes, jobs and apprenticeships that would be created if the revenue from the auction of the 4G mobile telephone spectrum was used to fund an affordable house building programme by his Department. [127628]

18. Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): If he will estimate the potential number of affordable homes, jobs and apprenticeships that would be created if the revenue from the auction of the 4G mobile telephone spectrum was used to fund an affordable house building programme by his Department. [127630]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): As the 4G auction has not yet taken place, we do not know what the total amount of generated revenue will be, but hon. Members should be aware that £600 million has already been allocated from the fund for science and innovation. We are making great progress in the development of affordable housing, and we hope to have 170,000 more affordable homes over the period, with £19.5 billion of investment.

Alex Cunningham: If the Government did the right thing, the cash could pay for 100,000 social and affordable homes, cut homelessness, create nearly 600,000 jobs, make a major contribution to the economic recovery and help rescue Ministers from their appalling house-building record. Will the Minister stand up to the Chancellor and demand the cash?

Mr Foster: No, what I will do is ask the hon. Gentleman where he thinks the £2.5 billion will come from, given that Ofcom put out a press release today saying that it expects the amount raised to be roughly £1.3 billion; remind him that we have already allocated £600 million of the sum; and point out the rather bizarre situation in which the press release to which he refers says that a third of the revenue will be used for affordable rented homes, whereas the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey),on the Labour Front Bench, says that the Labour party is against them.

Mr Sharma: With the latest affordable housing supply figures showing an across-the-board decrease, does the Minister agree that his Government’s failure to build enough affordable homes and homes for social rent, combined with their economic policies, are fuelling homelessness and rough sleeping?

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Mr Foster: I am absolutely staggered that the hon. Gentleman asks me that question, bearing in mind that, when his party was in power, 421,000 social houses were lost—became unavailable—whereas the coalition Government are seeking to build 175,000 additional properties.

Stephen Pound: On the subject of being staggered, the House was certainly so when during the previous DCLG questions the Secretary of State compared himself to Bertie Wooster. Whereas the right hon. Gentleman’s aspirations may be to the Drones club and an agreeable weekend in Blandings castle, many of my constituents want no more than a roof, and many of them want a job. The 4G revenue can provide them with both. Why not, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) said, stand up to those bloodless mandarins in the Treasury and say, “The people come before some fiscal policy”?

Mr Foster: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already made it clear where he does not want to be: on a bushtucker trial. I was surprised to see the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great deal of admiration, table a take-out question from the Whips Office, and I am disappointed that he has not followed it through with a question that acknowledges the significant contribution that the Government are making to getting a roof over somebody’s head and getting them a job after the mess left by the Labour Government.

Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): May I remind my right hon. Friend that the previous Government built fewer council houses in 13 years than the Thatcher Government built in 10 years? That said, it is quite a good question—can we not take on board what is being proposed?

Mr Foster: My hon. Friend must also look at the figures. We do not yet know what will be available, but £600 million has been allocated. There will still be questions about what will happen to house building in the period after the current spending review, and we are looking at that at the moment. Clearly, we want to have more houses, and more affordable homes. That is what we are already delivering, and we want to deliver more.

Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The Secretary of State knows that millions are locked out of home ownership, that families are struggling to pay ever higher levels of rent in the private rented sector and that council waiting lists are lengthening by the day. Why will he not support the investment of the 4G windfall in a programme that the National Housing Federation has said would result in 100,000 homes being built and more than 500,000 jobs being created? Does he not agree with the director general of the CBI, John Cridland, who has said that that is exactly what the economy needs?

Mr Foster: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has done more than anyone in this House to get house building going, with the additional money that was announced on 6 September, which will result in a further 10,000 affordable homes and bring a further 5,000 empty homes back into use, and with measures

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involving £200 million to get more privately rented accommodation, additional support for homeless people and so on. My Secretary of State can stand up and be proud of what he has achieved, unlike the Labour Government, who failed people in regard to house building during their 13 years in power.

Metropolitan Fire Services

15. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What consideration his Department has given to the proposal by the Association of Metropolitan Fire and Rescue Authorities for a flat-rate reduction for all fire services. [127627]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): The Government are considering responses to the technical consultation on business rates retention. All representations, including those from the Association of Metropolitan Fire and Rescue Authorities, will be considered before final decisions are made. Announcements on funding will be made in December in the usual way.

Mr Cunningham: Why are fire authority areas with a higher incident rate, such as the west midlands, suffering the largest cuts per capita? Can the Minister explain that?

Brandon Lewis: As I have just said, the funding decisions will be made in December in the usual way. Some Opposition Members do not support the idea of a flat line for metropolitan funding, and we are looking at that issue at the moment. The metropolitan brigades also have a higher per head grant in the first place, so there is full funding in there. I have already met a fair number of the metropolitan authorities to discuss this matter, and we will make our decisions and announcements in December.

Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): The Minister will know that fire and rescue services around the country are increasingly being called on to deal with the impact of severe flooding each year. Many of them, especially the metropolitan authorities, are struggling to meet their statutory obligations as a result of the Government’s swingeing cuts to fire and rescue services. Is the Minister happy to leave people who are affected by flooding this year to their own devices, or will he ensure that funding is available to enable the fire and rescue authorities to carry out that non-statutory function?

Brandon Lewis: I want to update the hon. Gentleman on a matter of fact. He might like to have a look at the figures, which show that the cut for fire authorities last year and the year that we are now in was 0.5%, as opposed to the swingeing cut to which he referred. Those authorities continue to do a fantastic job, as we are seeing. Problem with deaths from fire have fallen quite dramatically over the past few years, and the figures that he is citing simply do not add up.

Unauthorised Development/Illegal Encampments

19. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): What steps he is taking to tackle (a) unauthorised development and (b) illegal encampments. [127631]

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The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I refer my hon. Friend to my earlier answer on the problems of Travellers. I certainly look forward to what he has to say.

Damian Hinds: My constituents believe that everyone should be treated equally before the law, and they will welcome the news that councils are to get greater freedom to move quickly to prevent long-drawn-out stalemates such as the one at Dale Farm. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that his policy will result in a return to fairness in the planning system, unlike the policies of the Labour Government, which turned a blind eye to unauthorised development?

Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend is right. Dale Farm was a stain against the reputation of the planning system. We must never allow something like that to happen again. We have gone about this in a systematic way, trying to get a good balance to ensure that funds are readily available for authorities that wish to provide or should provide Traveller sites, but that resources and laws are there to ensure that those who wish to defy the law can be dealt with expeditiously—unlike what happened at Dale Farm.

Neighbourhood Plans

21. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): What steps he is taking to support the creation of neighbourhood plans. [127633]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): The Government have committed £50 million until March 2015 to enable local authorities to fulfil their legal duty to support neighbourhood planning. We are also providing direct support to front runners—£3.1 million this year to four organisations supporting neighbourhood plan areas.

Annette Brooke: I thank the Minister for his answer. I hear reports of delays in setting up the processes for neighbourhood forums, and I hear that not all planning officers are enthusiastic about neighbourhood plans. What more can the Government do to turn the Localism Act 2011 from a piece of legislation into a real change in culture and practice?

Nick Boles: I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this to my attention. The fact is that the duty to support neighbourhood planning is the law of the land, and we expect all local authorities and all people who work for them to obey the law of the land. If there is any evidence to the contrary, I look forward to receiving it from her.

Homes for Social Rent (England)

22. Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): How many homes for social rent have been (a) built and (b) sold in England since 1997. [127634]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): Before I answer the question, I am sure the whole House would wish to join me in congratulating my right hon. Friend on his elevation to the Privy Council.

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As I mentioned earlier, the total number of social rented housing stock fell by a staggering 421,000 units from March 1997 to March 2010.

Andrew Stunell: I thank my right hon. Friend for his disarming answer. Many families in my constituency are stuck on the housing waiting list, and their plight has been made much worse by that sale of houses by Labour. Will he please push the Government strongly to increase their social and affordable housing programme to deliver for my constituents in Hazel Grove?

Mr Foster: My right hon. Friend can be absolutely assured that the Department and I will continue to press the Treasury, but he will know that we have already delivered the funding for a programme that will deliver 170,000 affordable homes, and that we have recently announced further funds that will increase the number of affordable homes and the number of empty properties that will be brought back into use. I congratulate my right hon. Friend’s own council on receiving nearly £1 million through the new homes bonus, bringing more units back into use. Nearly £2 million, furthermore, awaits his local authority from the Homes and Communities Agency to do more good work.

Topical Questions

T2. [127637] Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I would like to congratulate the Right Rev. Justin Welby on his appointment as Archbishop of Canterbury. The Church of England plays a valued and important role in the culture and constitution of our country. The established Church is one of the foundations of the modern British nation. It is entwined with the political liberties and freedoms that the House so jealously guards. This Government value both the role of faith in public life and the spiritual and moral leadership offered by the Church—and we wish the new archbishop well in the coming years.

Jonathan Ashworth: I am sure the Secretary of State will be aware that one consequence of the deep cuts many local authorities are grappling with, such as the £38 million that Leicester is losing, is that many voluntary and community organisations across the country face a deeply uncertain future. Given that this Government are supposedly committed to a big society, is he proud that many voluntary organisations could, because of his cuts, go to the wall?

Mr Pickles: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but you will recall, Mr Speaker, that the Labour party tried to pull this last year, and went deep into voluntary groups, so we introduced our best value guidance, which makes it clear that there is a procedure to go through—and this year there is a right to bid. If I were a voluntary group in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, I would be wanting to take over the local authority’s provision—with the money that goes with it.

T3. [127638] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does the Minister agree that we could amend the law to help small businesses by

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reducing the amount of time between a business rate being appealed against and a local authority going after the money?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I understand the concerns of businesses—particularly small businesses—and ratepayers who are waiting for appeals to be settled by the Valuation Office. My Department is talking to the office, and we expect to resolve more than 400,000 appeals over 24 months to catch up with the backlog. The delay in the revaluation scheme will actually aid that process.

Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): After the Secretary of State’s shambolic performance in last week’s debate on the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, it is clear that he cannot even tell his Hackney from his Haringey. Why did he use out-of-date figures in his ministerial correction the following day when naming Haringey as the worst planning authority, when in the year to June the council that actually had the worst record on deciding major developments within 13 weeks—according to his Department’s figures—was Kensington and Chelsea; or is he just determined to blame a Labour council, as long as it begins with the letter H?

Mr Pickles: This gives me the opportunity to apologise to Hackney. I of course corrected the record at the first available chance, and wrote to the mayor of Hackney apologising. However, it is with regret that I must tell the House that this is by no means an uncommon occasion. Between 2007 and 2010, there were no fewer than 300-odd apologies and corrections, perhaps the most interesting of which—I am sorry that the former local government Minister has gone—was when Labour mistook Newcastle-under-Lyme for Newcastle upon Tyne and handed £10 million across to the former. I am delighted to say that no money changed hands under my mistake.

Hilary Benn: That was all very interesting but there was no answer to my question about performance. Let us turn to another shambles.

The Secretary of State’s determination to change the protection of our beautiful national parks from intrusive phone masts and telecoms equipment has caused a great deal of concern. He told the House during the debate last week that clause 7 of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill relates “exclusively to broadband”, even though the Bill says no such thing. Will he therefore now commit to introducing an amendment in Committee to make it clear that the authorities will still be able to object to phone masts of any height in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty?

Mr Pickles: Frankly, the right hon. Gentleman should know better. We replied to his question, and it is clear that such changes can take place only through secondary legislation. We have made it absolutely clear that we are only concerned with broadband, so his rather ridiculous posturing concerning 4G—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman has become obsessed with 4G. He wants money to be spent on this and spent on that—he should do a bit more work and apply himself a bit more.

T4. [127639] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Cambridge is a rapidly growing city. Its population has grown by some 15,000 in the last 10 years, and more

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building is happening. However, the new Office for National Statistics population model, which incorrectly predicted a population decline in the last census period, continues, unbelievably, to project a decline. What advice can the Minister give me on how to ensure that his Department uses more appropriate population figures, particularly when considering funding?

Brandon Lewis: The local government finance statement for 2013-14 will, as usual, use the most up-to-date and nationally consistent data available—not just the data on population, but all the data we use to inform the settlement. I am very aware from my conversations with the hon. Gentleman that there is real concern about the figures for Cambridge, and I am happy to meet him to see whether we can take the matter forward with the ONS.

T6. [127641] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The chief fire officer in Cleveland is trying to force through the creation of a mutual-type organisation to deliver the fire service that could, in time, have to compete for the contract. Every firefighter I have spoken to tells me they are against this move and see it as a step towards privatisation. Can the Minister guarantee that any such mutual would not face private sector competition for the contract in future, and tell me whether such an organisation could be created without the backing of the employees who would apparently own it?

Brandon Lewis: I am very disappointed to hear that the hon. Gentleman is against co-operatives and employee ownership. If the fire service does want to go to mutualisation and such a situation does exist, it would be a great thing for the employees to be part of it.

T5. [127640] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Does the Minister recognise the frustration of high street traders in Dover and Deal, who have to pay high business rates while charity shops conducting business for profit get a complete exemption? The traders feel that that is an unfair competitive advantage and a distortion of the competitive playing field. Will Ministers examine the rightness and properness of the exemption?

Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. It is right that charities receive relief, but we have temporarily doubled small business rate relief, too. That means that approximately a third of a million businesses, including many small independent shops, are currently paying no rates at all. We have also given councils powers to grant their own discounts, and they can use those powers to provide additional relief to other shops on the high street.

Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Given that on 1 April next year a 10% cut in council tax benefit will be forced on local councils by the Government, and given the confusion on the transitional funding that could be available to help alleviate that, will the Minister give a clear set of guidance to local authorities, because some have already started consulting and might have to set their budgets before they know what they will be getting?

Brandon Lewis: As I said earlier, the scheme that the Government have put in place is £100 million to help councils that want to help the most vulnerable and to make sure that it pays to work. The schemes that

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councils put in place are a local matter for them. This Government are having to deal with the economic mess we inherited from the previous Government and to get down the bill for council tax benefit, which went from £2 million to nearly £4.5 million under the Labour Government.

T7. [127642] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Constituents of mine, especially those in the Harlow Hill area of Harrogate, have contacted me as they are concerned about over-intensive housing development. Please could the Minister outline what protections there are for residents in the national planning policy framework?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): The national planning policy framework makes it clear that local authorities should meet the full objectively assessed housing needs for their area, but that they should choose where exactly that development should take place. The local plan must be consulted on, so my hon. Friend’s constituents in Harlow Hill have every opportunity to put forward their views about any development affecting them.

Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Going back to the issue of council tax benefit reduction, will the Minister confirm that Birmingham takes the biggest hit in the country—more than £10 million? The transitional grant will not go anywhere near compensating for that, so does he think that the council tax freeze that he trumpets does not apply to the most vulnerable and that their council tax should increase, or that Birmingham city council should squeeze middle-income earners in Birmingham to compensate?

Brandon Lewis: I hope that Birmingham city council will do the right thing and look at its back-office costs and at cracking down on fraud and error, which were worth about £200 million last year alone. I also hope it will make sure that it follows this Government’s outlined scheme to have a council tax freeze for its residents last year, having had council tax double under the previous Labour Government.

T8. [127644] Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Community groups in Galley Common and Whitestone in my constituency are considering forming neighbourhood plans, despite the lack of interest, help or enthusiasm from Labour-controlled Nuneaton and Bedworth borough council. Will the Minister join me in encouraging more communities across my constituency to go ahead to form neighbourhood plans and shape their local area?

Nick Boles: I want to do everything to help the people in my hon. Friend’s constituency to adopt a neighbourhood plan, if they can. There is simply no excuse for Labour-controlled Nuneaton and Bedworth borough council resisting or dragging its feet. It is remarkable that Labour’s Front-Bench team claims to support neighbourhood plans but Labour councils just try to get in the way.

Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The ferocity of the Chancellor’s cuts to Wirral council now looks clear, with significant job losses on the horizon. If this was our car factory closing, I would be standing here

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asking the Government to help, but these are the Government’s own cuts, trained on Wirral. So what can the Secretary of State do to help us?

Mr Pickles: The hon. Lady needs to understand that these cuts have been brought about by the failure of the last Labour Government, by the level of their deficit and by their inattention to the economy. We protected all local authorities last year—we protected them in terms of the income they received—and all the predictions by Opposition Members proved to be just hot air.

T9. [127645] Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Does the Minister share my concern that councillors are sometimes put off from declining planning permission because of the fear of bearing the full cost of an appeal? Does he agree that that is sometimes acting as a barrier to localism?

Nick Boles: I reassure my hon. Friend that if councils go through the proper process of forming policies and a local plan under the NPPF, they have nothing to fear from appeals to the Planning Inspectorate, which upholds the decision of local authorities in 65% of cases and can award costs against applicants who conduct themselves unreasonably in launching such appeals.

Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): In a recent survey, one in four tenants reported that they had been ripped off by letting agents. Do the Government recognise that and, if so, what are they going to do about it?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. He will be aware, however, that a number of letting agents have come together to form the safe agent scheme. We urge all people using such agencies to look out for that scheme, which gives an absolute guarantee that the funds are available to provide the necessary support.

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Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): All the money awarded for the building of a new free school in my constituency should go to benefit our children’s education, so is the Secretary of State surprised to learn that Enfield council is demanding tens of thousands of pounds of that budget for section 106 costs, providing no educational support?

Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point and I, the planning Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles)—and the Secretary of State for Education are looking into it as a matter of urgency.

Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be aware that Labour-run councils such as Lewisham and Lambeth are accredited living wage employers. In other parts of London, such as Croydon, local campaigns are under way to persuade councils to become living wage employers, too. Does the Secretary of State back those campaigns?

Mr Pickles: Local authority pay and conditions are matters for local authorities.

Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): When the Conservatives took control of North Lincolnshire council in 2011, Labour said that 2,000 jobs would be lost. Instead, free car parking has been introduced, the number of apprenticeships has gone up, council tax has been frozen and a community grant scheme has been introduced. May I commend the leadership of North Lincolnshire council and invite the Secretary of State to pay us a visit?

Mr Pickles: I already feel the need to book my ticket to visit that fine council. My hon. Friend’s example clearly illustrates the reality of people dealing with budgets and looking after front-line services; the Opposition are the fantasists.

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3.32 pm

Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will make a statement on the resignation of the director-general of the BBC, George Entwistle, and the situation at the BBC.

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller): The BBC is a global British institution of huge importance and value to millions of licence fee payers and people all over the world who look on it as an exemplar of independent public service broadcasting. In light of the ongoing crisis, it is crucial that the BBC puts the systems in place to ensure it can continue to make the first-class news and current affairs programmes on which its reputation rests.

George Entwistle has taken full responsibility for the failings of “Newsnight” in his role as editor-in-chief and it was for that reason he decided to resign yesterday. The circumstances of his departure make it hard to justify the level of severance money that has been agreed. Contractual arrangements are a matter for the BBC Trust, but the Trust also has clear responsibilities to ensure value for money for the licence fee payer. I know that Lord Patten has written to the Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport outlining why the Trust took the decision it did, and that letter has been made public. It is right that the Trust should account publicly for its decision and I have repeatedly emphasised the need for full transparency to rebuild public trust.

Members will know that procedures are now in place to scrutinise the BBC’s decisions in delivering value for money—procedures strengthened by this Government. The National Audit Office is empowered to conduct a value-for-money review of any issue. If it decides to review this decision, I expect that the BBC would co-operate fully.

The BBC is in the midst of the most serious of crises, and I have made it clear both publicly and privately that the Trust was slow off the mark in responding to the initial crisis over Savile. It is now acting decisively, with three reviews, one of which reported yesterday; the other two are ongoing. It is in the long-term interests of the BBC to have a period of stability in which to see this important work completed.

In my conversations with Lord Patten, I have been clear that the overall aim of the Trust must be to rebuild the public’s trust in the BBC, and I know that Lord Patten agrees. There are three things that the Trust needs to do to achieve that. First, the immediate task for the BBC must be to address whatever failings there have been in the editorial process, particularly in “Newsnight”, in order to restore public confidence in the BBC. The Trust needs to act swiftly to ensure that the management and leadership issues are resolved, and that the failings cannot be repeated. It is clear from the interim director-general’s interviews today that the BBC is looking seriously at what went wrong, where responsibility lies, and how to address the matter in the long term, and I welcome that.

Secondly, the Trust must get the right director-general in post, and Lord Patten has indicated that he will do that as soon as possible. Above all, it must get the right

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candidate to stabilise the BBC and drive through the change that is necessary. As I have said, the BBC is a global British institution, and it needs to function effectively.

Thirdly, in all this, we must not lose sight of the inquiries and what is at the heart of these events. None of the developments in recent days should overshadow the investigations into the alleged horrendous abuse of children in institutions around our country. It is vital that the BBC responds correctly and decisively to the Pollard inquiry on the decision to drop the “Newsnight” item on Savile, and to the Smith inquiry looking at Savile’s abuses and the culture and practices of the BBC.

The BBC is an independent institution, and its independence is not, and never will be, in question. Ultimately, the only organisation that can restore the public’s trust in the BBC is the BBC itself.

Ms Harman: I thank the right hon. Lady for that answer. Does she agree that, first and foremost, we need to have in mind the people who suffered the horror of sexual abuse as children? It takes great courage to come forward, and that we must encourage and support them to do that. Does she also agree that it was disgraceful that “Newsnight” falsely accused an individual of the sexual abuse of children—a damning accusation that could only have caused him and his family untold distress?

As the director-general is editor-in-chief and the buck stops with him, it was right for him to resign. George Entwistle is a decent man for whom this has no doubt been a personal tragedy. We have heard what the Secretary of State said about the pay-off, but surely she must agree that the BBC Trust cannot justify a pay-off of double the amount laid down in George Entwistle’s contract. Does she take the view that I do—that George Entwistle should reflect on this and only take that to which he is entitled under his contract?

Turning to what happens next, the Secretary of State is right that what is needed is a period of stability, so that the Trust can oversee the BBC’s sorting itself out. Does she agree that in the heat of this crisis, there are dangers that we must avoid? We should not trespass on the BBC’s independence. We do not want politicians to meddle with what newspapers write; neither should that happen with the BBC. Does she agree that the next victim of this crisis must not be the independence of the BBC? Does she also agree that while it is imperative that the BBC reinstates professional standards, it is important that the pendulum does not swing so far the other way that the BBC becomes cowed and retreats into risk avoidance?

The BBC is a loved and trusted institution, but it has enemies waiting to pounce. Will the Secretary of State assure this House that she will stand up to the commercial competitors and political opponents who are lining up to attack and wound the BBC at this moment of crisis? The BBC has made grave mistakes, and must sort them out, but everyone, including we politicians, must keep cool heads and let that happen, so that the BBC can restore trust. That is what the public want, and what the country needs.

Maria Miller: The right hon. and learned Lady called for an urgent question today, so she is very much standing there questioning the BBC. I endorse what she says, as we should let the BBC get on with putting its

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house in order. It is absolutely vital that we have a period of stability to do exactly what she was discussing, to make sure that the BBC can put its house in order, and restore stability to one of our most highly prized national institutions. I hope that she would join me in calling for that period of stability.

The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right that we should not at any point forget why these issues are under review right now—it is because of the sexual abuse of some of the most vulnerable people in society, and she will have noted the comments that I made in my statement. It is absolutely right that she should deplore the actions of those who repeated wrong accusations against people who clearly had absolutely no involvement whatsoever in the dreadful events that related to these problems.

As for the terms and conditions of those who are leaving the BBC, the right hon. and learned Lady will know that that is very much a matter for the BBC itself. I agree, as I have said, that it is hard to justify the level of payment that has been discussed. It is for Mr Entwistle himself to decide whether it is appropriate to accept that payment. I repeat again to the right hon. and learned Lady, as I said in my opening comments, that the National Audit Office can undertake a value-for-money review of the issues, which is an important thing to note.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. I am minded to run the exchanges on this question for approximately half an hour, but there is a premium, if I am to accommodate colleagues’ level of interest, on short questions and short answers. Long questions by one colleague will cause another colleague to be deprived of the opportunity to contribute.

Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): Given that under the one-off agreement between the Department and the BBC Trust, the Comptroller and Auditor General is unable, without the consent of the BBC Trust, to inquire into the regularity of the £450,000 severance payment to the director-general, would it not make sense to give the NAO unfettered access for its value-for-money audits and place the BBC on the same basis as every other public body?

Maria Miller: I know that my hon. Friend has looked at this issue in great detail. I repeat that the NAO is already empowered to conduct a value-for-money review. He makes an important point that in this day and age people expect all public institutions to be open to the widest possible scrutiny.

Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Will the right hon. Lady assure me that neither she nor anyone else in government on Saturday, or before, had any communication with Lord Patten or anyone from the Trust in which they suggested George Entwistle should go?

Maria Miller: Absolutely none.

Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): As George Entwistle has been given a huge pay-off to go quietly, is my right hon. Friend at all concerned that the BBC will try to use pay-offs to ensure the silence of those implicated

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in the Savile and “Newsnight” scandals? Will she make it clear to the chairman of the BBC Trust that the BBC must be open about its failings and not use licence fee payers’ money to avoid the corporation’s own embarrassment?

Maria Miller: I can absolutely reassure my hon. Friend that I have received assurances that both current and former employees are expected to contribute fully to all the investigations and that they should be conducted in an open and transparent manner.

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Does not this sorry episode illustrate the folly of entrusting the regulation of the BBC to a neutered body presided over by passé politicians from both parties who act in cosy collusion with the BBC, when what the BBC needs is proper regulation—an independent body, but properly and appropriately regulated?

Maria Miller: The right hon. Gentleman makes a colourful intervention. I remind him gently that it was his party that put in place the present structure. We will make sure that in the long term we have a structure that can protect what I have already said is one of our iconic national institutions.

Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I welcome the Secretary of State’s opening comments. The recent catalogue of senior management failings has given the BBC’s opponents the ammunition to attack what is, for the most part, a great broadcasting institution. So does the right hon. Lady agree that the decision to award a pay-off worth twice the amount of the contract gives the BBC’s opponents a green light to maintain their attack, rather than giving the BBC an opportunity to learn from its mistakes?

Maria Miller: It is right to say that it is difficult to justify the level of payment that has been talked about. I hope that the level of concern about that is being noted by the BBC Trust and, indeed, by Mr Entwistle himself.

Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I agree with both Front-Bench speakers that the main focus should be on the abuse of children in north Wales. There is a danger of intimidating the BBC. May I give the House a quick example? On Thursday I was interviewed by BBC Wales about child abuse. I mentioned the role of the Welsh Office and the fact that the Welsh Office had known for 20 years that this abuse was going on. I mentioned the fact that there was a convicted paedophile who had worked at the Welsh Office in a senior position, responsible for children’s services. The next day I did a similar interview and I was asked not to mention that person—I had not mentioned the person by name, anyway. I asked why not, and I was told, “That person might be identified because there were a small number of people.” He had already been identified; he was a convicted paedophile. So it is dangerous also that the BBC might now feel intimidated about broadcasting matters which it should broadcast.

Maria Miller: I understand the right hon. Lady’s point, although I say firmly that there are many lessons to be learned from the current situation. One of them is

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that it is in no way sensible to name individuals without there having been a proper and thorough criminal investigation associated with it.

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Secretary of State speak up for licence payers and ask Lord Patten, when she next talks to him, whether he will reconsider the outrageous and over-the-top pay-off and what he intends to do about the excessive number of highly paid managers, which he now condemns as if he were a critic, rather than their boss?

Maria Miller: My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. He will know that we have frozen the licence fee, and I am sure he will know that I have made my views very clear to Lord Patten on this matter.

Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): When Lord Patten talked about the retirement of George Entwistle, he went on to say that he had acted with honour, bravery, and courage. What kind of bravery and courage does it take to leave office with a million quid?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman makes his own point. I am concerned about making sure that the Trust is doing everything it can to bring the current situation to order, and to make sure that the licence fee payers are getting the sort of value for money that they would expect from a national institution.

Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Who appointed the obviously ineffectual Mr Entwistle as director-general, and what does that choice say about the competence of the people who made it?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend will know that the director-general of the BBC is appointed by the BBC Trust, and Mr Entwistle was appointed by the Trust on a unanimous basis. What is important now is that we have a new director-general in place who can tackle some real and important issues and a very serious crisis facing the organisation.

Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): The Secretary of State will know that there is great concern in Scotland about the crisis at the BBC, although BBC Scotland had no role in it. Does she agree with the National Union of Journalists and others who suggest that the job cuts to front-line journalistic staff have at least a part to play in this? May we have a moratorium on such job cuts until the crisis is resolved?

Maria Miller: I think that the hon. Gentleman would have to agree that the problem we face is a structural one within the BBC organisation. It is a problem that the BBC Trust is addressing through the plans and reviews it has put in place, and I hope that he will join me in welcoming that as the right way forward.

Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): In the past few days the main news headlines have been about structural overhaul at the BBC, heads rolling and severance payments, yet in the same few days we have heard about further arrests in connection with Savile and with child sexual exploitation in Rochdale and

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Leeds that have hardly troubled the headlines. The Secretary of State is right to say that the origins of all this mess are the inquiries into Savile and child abuse under the BBC’s roof. Does she agree that sensationalist celebrity scalp hunting by Opposition Members and shoddy reporting by “Newsnight” have undermined the possibility that witnesses will come back and that we need to get the inquiry back on track and focused on child abuse, which is where it started and where it should end?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend puts it extremely well. We cannot let these debates fog the central question: how do we ensure that we protect some of the most vulnerable people in our society? I welcome the fact that there will be a Back-Bench debate on that tomorrow, when I am sure he will continue to contribute and make the excellent points he has made this afternoon.

Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): The tragic case of Madeleine McCann shows that newspaper editors can make the most appalling allegations without having to resign or being sacked by their proprietors, so we should bring some perspective to George Entwistle’s departure, whether it was truly voluntary or whether he was pushed. Does the Secretary of State agree that the BBC Trust has compounded all the errors by agreeing to this misjudged double pay-off and, in so doing, has made it doubly difficult for even the friends of the BBC, and there are many, to stand up for it?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is right that the level of pay-off will not be easy for Members in the Chamber to understand and that it is difficult to justify. However, I hope that he will agree that at this point we need to ensure that the BBC has a period of stability so that it can proceed with the reviews it has undertaken and we can create the sort of change that will strengthen the organisation for the long term.

Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): The BBC is bigger than “Newsnight”, which is one programme, and what happened is terrible, but does the Secretary of State agree that we should allow Tim Davie, who has already shown clear leadership today, some time to get the BBC back on track so that it can finish those inquiries?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have seen the BBC set up the reviews, and we now need to ensure that it can conduct its work and that the findings are acted upon.

Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): This has clearly been a dark time for the BBC, but does the Secretary of State recognise that last week it covered the American elections and that there was a range of programming on television and radio of an incredible standard and that this should not be used as a tool to undermine the basis of a public broadcaster?

Maria Miller: The right hon. Gentleman is right to focus on the incredibly important contribution the BBC makes. We saw that through the summer with its coverage of the Olympics. We must also ensure that the changes

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that are being made allow continued support for the sort of investigative journalism that is a critical part of its role.

Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Yesterday our nation gathered to mourn our war dead, Israeli forces exchanged fire with forces in Syria and there was the small matter of an election in China. Does the Secretary of State share my concern about the interminable introspection the BBC is going through at the moment and agree that we need to put these events in perspective and focus on the real issue, which is uncovering child abuse?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is right that we should not let these matters cloud the central issue of child abuse. Equally, it is vital that we ensure that our country’s main news broadcaster has the management and editorial controls in place to ensure trust in the work it does.

Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Over the weekend allegations were made that an abuser in the north Wales case had previously abused children in my constituency in the 1960s and ’70s. As other Members have said, we must ensure that it is those people we focus on and that we put as much effort, if not more, into ensuring that proper resources go into encouraging victims of abuse to come forward. That might well mean that the Government will have to look at giving further support to social services departments and the police, because those people will not just feel frightened and apprehensive; they might have spent a lifetime feeling that in some way they are guilty. They need a lot of support, and we should give it to them.

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman puts his finger on it when he says that the important issue that comes out of this is that people who have suffered abuse do not in any way feel impeded in coming forward for fear of being part of what has become a media circus. We have to make sure that people have the confidence to be able to do that, and he is right to make sure that we focus on it. Perhaps he will contribute to tomorrow’s Back-Bench debate as well.

Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May I assure Labour Members that many Members of Parliament on the Government Benches think that the BBC is a great and fantastic global news organisation? Indeed, I love the BBC, not least BBC Radio Shropshire. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is absolutely vital that the new director-general is the right person for the job and that the Trust does not, in a panic and in a crisis, rush to judgment about putting someone in but ensures that we get the right person to lead this wonderful organisation forward into the rest of the century?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to pay tribute to the work of local BBC stations and organisations; we all know that they do a fantastic job of work in our constituencies. He is also right to say that we need to ensure that we have in the new director-general somebody who is able to deal with the real structural changes that are required in the organisation, as already outlined by the chairman of the Trust.

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Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): This is certainly the worst crisis that the BBC has faced for at least nine years. Does the Secretary of State agree that if the editorial policy of the BBC is in need of review, then that review must be done by independent professional journalists and not by middle managers or by Government Ministers, and certainly not by Members of the House of Lords?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman will know that the two reviews on the BBC that are still ongoing are being conducted by individuals not only with extensive experience in journalism, in the case of Mr Pollard, but of absolutely the highest standard and the highest integrity in the case of Janet Smith. He can therefore be assured that those investigations will be conducted in the most appropriate way possible.

Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Lord Patten wasted hundreds of thousands of pounds on the appointment process for George Entwistle, and he has now wasted hundreds of thousands of pounds on paying him off, saying that he was not up to the job, that he was overwhelmed by it, and that he was right to resign. Lord Patten has been asleep at the wheel, he has been off the pace from the word go, and he is part of the problem rather than the solution. Is it not time that the Secretary of State tapped him on the shoulder and told him to move aside and manage all his other outside interests, which are probably why he has been treating this as a sinecure and has done absolutely nothing to earn the staggering salary that he gets?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend’s strength of feeling is clear. While, as I said, the Trust could have acted more quickly with the initial inquiries, I now feel that it is acting decisively to address this very serious crisis. Lord Patten has a key role in ensuring that the crisis is well handled, and I support him in doing that.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Genuine supporters of the BBC will be appalled whenever it slips from the very highest standard of integrity and quality because we expect it domestically and worldwide to achieve that gold standard. Will the Secretary of State ensure that the detractors who seek to make mileage out of this predicament will not be given free rein, because we need the BBC to be there investigating, with the strongest possible standards, the child abuse that is at the centre of this issue?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman will know that the way to restore the trust in the BBC that both he and I want to see is by allowing it to proceed with the investigations currently under way and by having a period of stability within the organisation.

Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Is not one of the lessons that we need to learn that all of us in this place need to be very careful that we do not use parliamentary privilege simply to stand up stories for journalists outside? Is not one of the sad facts, as events have unfurled and unfolded, that some journalists and, I am afraid, some parliamentarians were so keen to have a crack at the previous Thatcher Government by way of association and innuendo that they made no, or no reasonable, effort to check the accuracy of their assertions and accusations?

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Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right: there are individuals who perhaps want to examine their consciences and ensure that, where appropriate, they apologise.

Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): There are two strands to today’s discussion—that it is vital that the victims of abuse feel confident that if they come forward their cases will be considered, and that the BBC, whether it be local radio, drama or children’s programmes, is a national treasure. Can the Secretary of State say with confidence that she feels that the Trust fully understands that, apart from changing personnel, there is an issue around the ethos of the BBC that needs serious consideration, including the messages sent to the public about the golden goodbyes?

Maria Miller: The hon. Lady is right to ensure that we always keep to the fore the situation of children who have been victims of abuse. I am sure she has read Lord Patten’s words that he fully understands the issue with the ethos of the organisation—something that he made clear when he was appointed.

Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con): As a result of George Entwistle going there might be other departures from the BBC because of the present crisis. If so, will the Secretary of State assure the House that she will press Lord Patten to ensure that not only the notice provisions of individuals’ contracts but the clauses that speak of proper performance of their duties are looked at; and that if payments are made proper consideration will be given to what, if any, performance there has been?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend speaks of ensuring that contracts are correctly put together. I join him in saying that any reward for failure is inappropriate not only for the BBC but for any organisation.

Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Last week, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales made it clear he had had some contact with members of the public who had been abused in children’s homes in north Wales but had not come forward before. I am sure we welcome people feeling that they can do so, but many of us fear that certain events will make them nervous, especially given the current media reaction. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is spectacularly unhelpful when people who should know better refer to such people as “weirdos”?

Maria Miller: The hon. Lady talks about the language we use, and in this place we know it is incredibly powerful. She rightly counsels caution and I share her desire that individuals should be able to raise such issues in the most supportive environment possible.

Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Twice in the past 12 months the House has discussed the lack of management control over large media organisations—now the BBC and earlier News International led by the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson), who I see is not in his place today. Will my right hon. Friend say whether this raises issues about revising the roles of the BBC so that it can focus on doing right those things it does best?

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Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to talk about the importance of focusing the BBC. I hope that at the heart of the review we will have the opportunity to ensure that we get back to doing what the BBC does best—world-class broadcasting and world-class news journalism.

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State ensure there is no witch hunt at the BBC? Does she agree that the priorities must be a combination of justice for the victims of the now well-documented abuse and of lessons being learned for now and for the future so that children’s protection is always at the heart of what we do?

Maria Miller: Management of the current situation is very much for members of the BBC executive. I see day in, day out their desire to get to the bottom of the issues, which I have encouraged them to do rather than look for any easy way out. The hon. Gentleman is right that we must ensure that we put the safeguarding of children at the heart of what the not only the BBC but every public organisation does.

Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that, even after the shoddy journalism we have seen at the BBC, the most important thing is getting to the bottom of who perpetrated those crimes and ensuring that the police are allowed to get on and do their job? That journalism should not cloud the situation or do anything to stop the police.

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right that our focus needs to be on the welfare and safety of children, and on ensuring that the dreadful events we have heard about could never happen again.

Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The BBC foolishly cut spending on its high-quality, in-house investigative journalism, and contracted it to outside bodies in order to spend excessively on salaries for managers and stars. Is it not true that the situation is serious for the BBC, but ephemeral, and that the nation’s trust in the BBC is deeply rooted and permanent?

Maria Miller: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the structure of the BBC is a matter for the executive. However, he is right that a review is looking at that structure to ensure that it works effectively in terms of both management and editorial content.

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that this latest debacle will bring forward the day when the British public will have the freedom to decide whether to pay to watch the BBC, rather than being forced to pay for it by the criminal law?

Maria Miller: Every Member in the Chamber attaches enormous value to the role of the BBC. All those things are regularly under review as part of the charter renewal process. I am sure my hon. Friend will want to give his thoughts as we move forward to that.

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Given that the BBC Trust appointed the BBC director-general in the first place and that he has had to resign, does the

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Secretary of State agree that there is a case for looking at the Trust and its composition?

Maria Miller: The role of the Trust is to ensure that the BBC executive works as it should. We will always work closely with Lord Patten on that. At this point, we want to ensure that there is a period of stability in which we can see the outcomes of the reviews that have been put in place. They may well raise the sorts of issues the hon. Gentleman raises.

Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The BBC, across local radio, regional television and national broadcasting, is more accurate and reliable, and better trusted, than Britain’s newspapers, particularly those with foreign owners who have a vested interest in, and commercial reasons for, wanting to damage the BBC. Will the Secretary of State give me an assurance that the failings will not be used as an excuse to dismantle a great British institution that is the envy of the free world?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman is right that a mixed media in this country is important—both broadcast and press have an important role to play. He can have an assurance today that the Government, working in support of the Trust, are trying to ensure that the BBC goes back to being a global player in terms of highly respected journalism, including investigative journalism.

John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): How can the BBC move on unless and until Lord Patten is sacked?

Maria Miller: The hon. Gentleman wants to ensure that the BBC can move on from the situation it is in today, but perhaps he needs to join me in looking at the outcome of the three ongoing reviews before he calls for further changes.

Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. I am keen to accommodate remaining colleagues as there is but a sprinkling of them.

Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) rose—

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Johnson, you can take your seat and be comfortable. Brevity would assist us in this process. You can rise again now.

Gareth Johnson: There is no doubt that “Newsnight” broadcast a car crash of a television programme or that changes are needed at the BBC, but does the Secretary of State agree that it would be a mistake to use the problems emanating from that “Newsnight” programme and the current difficulties at the BBC to rubbish everything it does and all it stands for?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend says that it is important to value the wide cross-section of things that the BBC does. He is right to do that, but it is also right to ensure that such an important institution in this country has the right management structures in place for people to have full confidence in it.

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Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is not the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) right? Has not the problem at the BBC been going on for a long time, and has not the wrong person been forced out? Should it not have been the chairman of the Trust?

Maria Miller: I think my hon. Friend would have to agree that what we want now is a solution to the situation we are in. It is clear to me that we need to look at the factual evidence coming out of the reports that have already been commissioned. That is the most important thing we can be doing here and now.

Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): The BBC is an institution of world renown that is respected in every corner of our world. Of course when there is failure and wasteful pay-offs they must be acknowledged, apologised for and put right; but does my right hon. Friend agree that it is much in the British national interest that the current crisis should be dealt with in a reasoned, balanced and proportionate way, without inflicting long-term damage on the BBC?

Maria Miller: Absolutely yes.

Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): It is clear that a great number of people are busy grinding their axe on this issue. I personally hope that the BBC can get back to doing what it does best: quality programming and world-leading journalism. However, so that more funds from the licence fee payers are not diverted away from that and so they do not have to pay twice, will my right hon. Friend join me in suggesting that some of the outgoing director-general’s pay-off could be set aside for—I would not want to prejudge anything—any future payments that might have to be made?

Maria Miller: All these are things that I am sure the Trust and the executive will be looking at.

Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that quite frankly the BBC has shown itself always to be in contempt of this place? I remember when we first came here we had several debates about a lack of funding for local radio because of the freeze in the licence fee, yet Jeremy Paxman himself said yesterday that too much money is being put into middle management and not journalism. Will she ensure that the BBC gets back to doing journalism, rather than trying to beat the Government with a stick all the time?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend says that we need to ensure that the BBC acknowledges the role of Parliament. I am sure that is absolutely right, although I am sure that we cannot stop the BBC occasionally wanting to ensure that it holds us to account as well.

Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): We all want a respected and independent BBC, so does the Secretary of State agree that although stability is important, so too would be change in middle management and editorial control?

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Maria Miller: All these things are being looked at by the BBC in its overhaul of the way it works. I would urge Members to look at the important reviews being undertaken and ensure that when they are brought forward, we look at them in detail.

Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I hope that “Newsnight” is back tonight, slowly turning politicians on the spit; but although the BBC can be held accountable in a court of law for its outrageous and devastating slur against an innocent man, the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) cannot. Does the Secretary of State agree that he should have been here this afternoon to make an apology?

Maria Miller: I am sure these are things for the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) to think about himself, but I fully understand the point my hon. Friend makes.

David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): A lot has been said in recent weeks about pay at the BBC, but anybody who has ever tried to ask a question about the BBC at the Table Office will know that it is near enough impossible. In the collegiate spirit of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), does the Secretary of State not think it time to reform some of the BBC’s archaic ways and allow Members of this House to find out exactly what is going on there, so that perhaps a lot of the debacles we have seen over the past few weeks will not happen again?

Maria Miller: The ability to scrutinise the BBC has been strengthened under this Government; my hon. Friend asks whether we should go further. Clearly all of us in public office—indeed, all public institutions—have transparency and scrutiny as our everyday business, and I think that goes for every single public organisation.

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Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): If other media sources mess up, we can stop paying or switch off, forcing them to change. However, in the case of the BBC we must continue to pay. When will that change?

Maria Miller: I am sure that that will always be an issue to be raised in the Chamber, and we obviously consider it when the time comes for the charter to be reviewed.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Licence fee payers in Kettering and, indeed, throughout the country face a criminal sanction if they fail to buy their television licences. Is it not clear that the BBC is being far too liberal with licence fee payers’ money, whether it is spent on low-tax contracts for overpaid presenters or the awarding of twice the amount of severance pay that should be awarded? Given that Lord Patten, as chairman of the Trust, has presided over the appointment of a clearly unsuitable person and then presided over his departure with twice the severance pay that he should have received, is it not time for the chairman himself to go?

Maria Miller: My hon. Friend is right to suggest that it should be possible to hold every public organisation to account for the way in which it uses money. I remind him that the National Audit Office is empowered to examine value-for-money issues of that kind. However, I think that at this point it should be possible for there to be a period of calm within the BBC, so that it can establish the facts and the problems that it faces and introduce meaningful reforms.

Mr Speaker: I thank the Secretary of State and colleagues for their co-operation, which meant that every Member who wanted to take part in that series of exchanges was able to do so.

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Abu Qatada

4.16 pm

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement about a court ruling on Abu Qatada.

Earlier today, the Special Immigration Appeals Commission upheld Abu Qatada’s appeal against his deportation. I hardly need to tell the House that the Government strongly disagree with that ruling. Qatada is a dangerous man, a suspected terrorist who is accused of serious crimes in his home country of Jordan. The British Government have obtained from the Jordanian Government assurances not just in relation to the treatment of Qatada himself, but about the quality of the legal processes that would be followed throughout his trial. We will therefore seek leave to appeal against today’s decision.

It is important to note that SIAC ruled that the Jordanian Government

“will do everything within their power to ensure that a retrial is fair.”

The court said that

“the Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are determined to ensure that the appellant will receive, and be seen to receive, a fair retrial.”

SIAC also said that

“if the only question which we had to answer was whether or not, in a general sense, the appellant would be subjected to a flagrantly unfair retrial in Jordan, our unhesitating answer would be that he would not.”

Those words demonstrate the extent of the co-operation between the Jordanian and British Governments in the assurances that we received.

The House will remember the ruling by the European Court of Human Rights in January that Qatada could not be deported because of the risk that evidence obtained through the alleged mistreatment of two co-defendants from previous trials might be used in a new trial. I still believe that that ruling was wrong, but since then the Jordanian Government have provided the British Government with further specific assurances and information about the quality of any trial that Qatada will face, and the assurances directly address the issues raised by the European Court.

First, the state security court, which would hear Qatada’s case, is not a quasi-military court, as Strasbourg suggested, but a legitimate part of the Jordanian legal system that considers criminal cases. Moreover, the Jordanian Government have promised to ensure that Qatada’s case would be heard by civilian, not military, judges.

Secondly, on his return to Jordan, Qatada’s conviction in absentia would be quashed. He would be detained in a civilian detention centre, open to international inspection; he would have access to defence lawyers, who would be present during any questioning; and he would have the opportunity to make a fresh statement on his involvement in these cases.

Thirdly, while Qatada’s co-defendants from previous trials would be compelled to give evidence, they are both now free men, so we can be confident that they would give truthful testimony. SIAC also agreed that

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Qatada’s lawyers would be able to cross-examine those men during his trial. The Jordanian expert witness told SIAC that their evidence would anyway no longer be admissible, although the absence of case law and other witness statements meant that SIAC could not be sure that that was the position.

In addition, torture has been illegal in Jordan since 2006, and last year the Jordanian constitution was amended to make it clear that not only is torture forbidden, but

“any statement extracted from a person under duress...or the threat thereof shall neither be taken into consideration or relied on.”

That is a direct quotation from article 8.2 of the Jordanian constitution.

Despite these assurances, despite the determination of the Jordanian Government and judiciary to allow Qatada a fair trial, despite the change to the Jordanian constitution that expressly prohibits torture and the use of evidence obtained by torture, in the absence of clear case law, Mr Justice Mitting still found in Qatada’s favour. In doing so, we believe he applied the wrong legal test. But as a result of that decision, Mr Justice Mitting has also ruled that, from tomorrow, Qatada will be granted bail, subject to a 16-hour curfew. In addition, Government lawyers are arguing for the most restrictive bail conditions possible, and those conditions will be published by the court in the morning.

It is deeply unsatisfactory that Abu Qatada has not already been deported to Jordan. Successive Governments have tried to remove him since December 2001. He has a long-standing association with al-Qaeda. British courts have found that he

“provides a religious justification for acts of violence and terror.”

In Jordan, he has been tried and found guilty in absentia of planning to attack western and Israeli targets.

It is also deeply unsatisfactory that the European Court of Human Rights continues to move the goalposts for Governments trying to deport dangerous foreign nationals. The Court has long-standing case law in relation to article 3 of the European convention prohibiting torture and inhuman or degrading treatment, and successive British Governments have secured deportation with assurance agreements with other Governments, so deportations can proceed in accordance with the law, but the Court’s unprecedented ruling in January in relation to article 6—the right to a fair trial—has added yet another barrier to deportation.

Notwithstanding the fact that I still believe that the European Court’s ruling was wrong, I also believe that we have obtained from the Jordanian Government the information and assurances that would allow us to deport Qatada in compliance with that ruling and the law. That is why we disagree with today’s decision, and that is why we are seeking leave to appeal. The Government have been doing everything we can to get rid of Abu Qatada, and we will continue to do so. I commend this statement to the House.

4.22 pm

Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): This is an extremely serious and worrying judgment that means that, from tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be back on Britain’s streets. People across this country will be horrified to learn that that is the case. It also completely

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contradicts the Home Secretary’s assurances to this House that she had the right legal strategy and evidence to get Abu Qatada deported to Jordan. The information from security experts, the Home Secretary and judges and the courts is that this is an extremely dangerous extremist who is a threat to national security. We all want him to be deported to stand fair trial abroad as soon as possible, and to be held in custody in the meantime to keep people safe.

The Home Secretary is right to appeal against this judgment as every avenue to secure Abu Qatada’s deportation must be pursued. However, there are some very serious questions that now need to be answered about the Home Secretary’s strategy to get this deportation in place and about the action she is now taking to keep the public safe.

The Home Secretary told us in April that the best way to deport Abu Qatada was not to appeal against the European Court judgment, but to rely on evidence from Jordan in the British immigration courts, and she gave very strong assurances to Parliament and the public that Abu Qatada would be quickly removed from this country. In April she told us that

“today Qatada has been arrested and the deportation is under way.”

She said:

“I am confident of our eventual success”


“I believe that the assurances and the information that we have gathered will mean that we can soon put Qatada on a plane and get him out of our country for good.”—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c.173-178.]

Far from being put on a plane, he is soon going to be out on our streets, and if the Home Secretary’s appeal fails, he will be a free man.

It is clear now that all the Home Secretary’s promises and assurances were overblown and her strategy has fallen apart as a result of this decision. Like her, I am concerned about the SIAC conclusion given the assurances Jordan has provided, to which she rightly referred. She also rightly referred to the SIAC view that Abu Qatada will not be subjected to “a flagrantly unfair retrial”, and that is why we believe he should be deported. However, the immigration court also makes it clear that it is bound by the European Court judgment:

“all that we can do is to return to the basic Strasbourg test: has the Secretary of State established that there is not a real risk that the impugned statements will be admitted probatively? To that question…the answer must be negative”.

It is clear that the court believes there is a new test established. The Home Secretary blames that European Court judgment and says she disagrees with it, so why on earth did she not appeal against it when she had the chance to do so, and as we urged at the time?

Secondly, what is the Home Secretary now doing to get that deportation back on track? We support the appeal. We hope she will be successful in arguing that the wrong legal test has been applied, but that is not enough. Has she started further discussions with Jordan? Has she put her junior Minister straight on a plane? The immigration court has said that what it needs now is a

“change to the Code of Criminal Procedure”.

What is she doing to pursue that, or other alternatives that might overturn that court decision?

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Thirdly, what is the Home Secretary doing to keep the public safe in the meantime? Tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be released on bail. Is she preparing an application for a terrorism prevention and investigation measure? That would be weaker than the control orders she chose to abolish. If her appeal fails, she will need to take further action. Under her new system of TPIMs, he will still be able to meet contacts in London, use his mobile phone, have access to the internet and only have his movement restricted overnight. We have asked her about that repeatedly, but will she please now look again at her decision to water down counter-terror powers in the light of this case?

This judgment overturns the Home Secretary’s strategy to get Abu Qatada deported and to keep him in custody in the meantime. Her confidence and complacency have proved to be a mistake. There has been a catalogue of confusion and mistakes on Abu Qatada, including the Home Secretary getting basic dates wrong earlier this year. There is cross-party agreement on the importance of deporting Abu Qatada and protecting the public. We cannot afford further confusion and mistakes. The Home Secretary needs to take urgent action now to keep the public safe, and get this deportation back on track.

Mrs May: The shadow Home Secretary made a number of points, some of which, I have to say, were either wrong or irrelevant to what we have heard today. She seems to be trying to argue that the Government have not been doing enough to deport Abu Qatada. I can assure her and the whole House that, if it was the case that this was one of those situations where it was just a question of a decision by the Home Secretary, Abu Qatada would have been on the plane on 12 May 2010. However, it is not that simple and we have to work in accordance with the ruling of the courts.

The work that we have undertaken with the Jordanians, which she referred to and seemed to brush to one side as if it was nothing, is unprecedented. The security Minister visited Jordan; I visited Jordan; and the Prime Minister has raised the issue with the King of Jordan. We have secured information and assurances that I still maintain should enable us to deport Qatada. Although the right hon. Lady was dismissive of those assurances, I will remind her, as I said in my statement, of what Mr Justice Mitting said about them. He said that the Jordanian Government

“will do everything within their power to ensure a retrial is fair.”

He continued:

“The Jordanian judiciary, like their executive counterparts, are determined to ensure that the appellant will receive, and be seen to receive, a fair retrial.”

SIAC stated that

“if the only question which we had to answer was whether or not, in a general sense, the appellant would be subjected to a flagrantly unfair retrial in Jordan, our unhesitating answer would be that he would not.”

The right hon. Lady asked whether we will continue our negotiations with the Jordanians. We are very grateful for the significant assurances the Jordanian Government have already provided. Of course, our work with the Jordanians will continue in the light of today’s judgment. The Jordanian Government put out a statement earlier today, which said:

“We understand there will be an appeal and accordingly we will work with them”—

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that is, the UK Government—

“to be able to bring him back to justice here in Jordan. Concerning the fear of a fair trial for him—there were guarantees for the British government on that, but also our constitution and our judicial system guarantees him that.”

I am grateful to the Jordanian Government for that support.

The right hon. Lady raised the issue of bail conditions. Abu Qatada will be subject to a 16-hour curfew. Other conditions will be determined by the court and announced tomorrow. I believe that a 16-hour curfew is as strict as the strictest of control orders, so I am afraid that what she says is not the case, and she needs to look at that issue again.

The right hon. Lady referred to the new test and to the relative merits of the article 3 and article 6 issues. Those are different matters: Governments have for a long time been able to seek assurances about article 3 —that process is mature and has existed for many years—whereas the need for assurances about article 6 emerged only because of the European Court’s unprecedented judgment early this year.

The right hon. Lady asked whether it would have been better had we referred the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court. On that, she is wrong. Her argument seems to be that the European Court—the very court that has caused this difficulty by setting up a new barrier to deportation—is the solution to the problem. Not only is that palpably ridiculous, but an appeal to the Grand Chamber would have risked our wider deportation policies—[Interruption.] I suggest that she listens to this point. An appeal would also have made it harder to deport further terrorists, had we lost the appeal. It would have been unwise, as well as fruitless.

In April, and again today, the shadow Home Secretary told the House:

“We all want Abu Qatada deported as soon as possible, under the rule of law”.—[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 508.]

Unless she is prepared to break the rule of law, she has no solutions other than what the Government have already done. I suggest that, instead of trying to score a political hit, she supports the Government, is straight with the public and supports us in what we are doing to deport Abu Qatada.

Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Home Secretary will recall that she has herself urged the repeal of the Human Rights Act 1998. In the light of these events, is it not now time to get on with this urgently? In that way, we will be able to protect not only the public from the likes of Abu Qatada but those alleged terrorists who deserve a fair trial. Let us give them a fair trial, legislate in this country and work out our own answers to these questions, rather than leaving it to the Strasbourg Court.