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Development orders: development within the curtilage of a dwelling house
The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 7.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 1 to 6, 8 to 24 and 26 to 40.
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Mr Pickles: I agree with amendments 1 to 6, 8 to 24 and 26 to 40, but I ask the House to support the motion to disagree with Lords amendment 7.
I would like to thank the noble Lords for their well-informed debates since this Bill passed to the other place just before Christmas. Those debates brought about a number of positive changes, and we are happy to support a significant number of them. I recognise the constructive proposals put forward in particular by Baronesses Byford and Parminter and by Lords Jenkin of Roding, Tope, Shipley and Greaves on the Government Benches; by Lord Best and the Earl of Lytton from the Cross Benches; and, indeed, by Lord Berkeley on the Opposition Benches.
The amendments to clause 1 take into account the very poor performance of a small number of authorities in failing to meet statutory deadlines. They confirm that designation can be made only on the basis of inadequate performance in the determination of major applications and that the criteria of those designations must be laid before both Houses of Parliament before coming into force.
On report in this House, in response to arguments put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell) as well as by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), the Government made a commitment to amendment 12 to exempt rural exception sites from the provisions of clause 6 on affordable housing. In addition, we have always said that we intend clause 6 to be a temporary measure to unblock existing stalled housing developments, and we were happy to introduce an amendment to ensure that the sun would set on it on 30 April 2016.
We have made clear that the Planning Inspectorate’s assessment of the viability of a particular scheme will be independent, and that any evidence on which inspectors rely in their discussions will be made public. We also support the amendments that will guarantee consistency with existing mayoral planning powers relating to applications that are of strategic importance in London.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): I thank the Secretary of State for announcing an important measure that will deal with the mischief of many years during which people were unable to know what arguments developers were advancing for the delivery of less than the locally affordable housing limits. It will allow us to hold to account, publicly, developers as well as local authorities.
Mr Pickles: I agree. It will ensure that important information is provided where it should be provided, within the community.
Lords amendment 15, which amends clause 8, constitutes a direct response to points made with passion and persistence by Lady Parminter, and also by the English National Park Authorities Association, about the precise drafting of our proposal to accelerate the roll-out of superfast broadband coverage. The amendment will ensure that we retain important safeguards that will continue to protect our national parks and other protected areas.
I hope that the House will support Lords amendment 8, which will simplify the process of making local development orders; Lords amendment 16, which will reduce the
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period of grace for the registration of town and village greens from two years to one; Lords amendment 23, which will remove ambiguity from development consent orders; and Lords amendment 24, which will enable the Mayor of London to delegate his planning responsibilities.
Let me now deal with the important issue of permitted development rights for home owners. The proposal in question was not part of the Bill as introduced in the House of Commons. I overheard one of my right hon. Friends expressing a desire to vote against it and claiming to have voted against it persistently during all the Bill’s stages in the Commons, but I must point out that this is the first occasion on which it has been before us. It stems from an amendment tabled by Lords True, Tope and Lytton, and I know that it has engaged the interest of many Members of the House of Commons as well. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate the way in which the planning system strikes a balance between the rights of home owners to improve their homes and the right of the state to specify the improvements that they are allowed to make.
Let me now quote, with considerable approval, from a document which states:
“No one today would assert that property rights should be unrestricted but…those restrictions must always be justified and remain as limited as possible… many planners who have grown up with the view that the property owner is only one stakeholder among others. There are too many who act as if they believe that most people cannot be trusted to make decisions themselves without the superior advice and judgement of professionals. Some councillors, too long on planning committees, react to a restatement of the inherent rights of property by fearing loss of control! It is that word which is the key.
Too much planning has become development control… the time and trouble that has been spent on dealing with planning applications for extensions and additions, porches and garages…cannot be seriously said to have been cost-effective.”
Those are the magnificent words of my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), together with those of John Gummer, in the wonderful Quality of Life policy group report, published in 2007.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I am sure my right hon. Friend agrees that the local government family is like the curate’s egg: good in parts, but bad as well. Does he agree, however, that the issues that he has raised would have been ventilated much more effectively had the consultation period been longer—along with the Cabinet Office guidelines—and had the Department itself arrived at a settled consensus in response after 16 weeks? Unfortunately, that has not happened.
Mr Pickles: I do not know about the curate’s egg, but I have always regarded local government as an omelette of happiness and consensus. I hope that by the time I sit down, I shall have spun together a dish that the hon. Gentleman can happily tuck into.
Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr Pickles: I will, of course, give way to the right hon. Gentleman on the matter of omelettes.
Paul Burstow: Can the Secretary of State explain why, even at this stage, it was not possible to provide an executive summary of the findings from the consultation? Why must the House wait until May to find out whether people are in favour of the proposal or against it?
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Mr Pickles: Obviously we will provide the information when the regulations are laid. That is normal Government procedure.
Having poured praise on my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park—
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Zac Goldsmith: I stand by the words that my right hon. Friend quoted so eloquently earlier. There are certainly ways in which we could simplify the planning system; I do not think anyone disputes that. However, given that 90% of applications are already successful, surely removing people’s right to object will simply guarantee that the remaining 10%—the most contentious, un-neighbourly, antisocial developments—proceed as well, causing unnecessary conflict between neighbours.
Mr Pickles: I think that it would be best for my hon. Friend to wait until the omelette has started to settle. He may care to cross-examine me further then.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): I do not know about omelettes, but the Secretary of State is making a very soft-boiled case for supporting the Government, and I am really trying hard. I do not know about him, but I hear complaints from many of my constituents, at my surgeries or through local councillors, that their neighbours have extended the remit of their planning permissions in terms of height, length or type. How many more complaints does he think will be made to us when planning permission is no longer required for a development that a neighbour would regard as completely unacceptable and antisocial?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We must have shorter interventions.
Mr Pickles: When I became Member of Parliament for Brentford and Ongar, my predecessor gave me a single file and two pieces of advice. The first was that when the sun rose I should always be found in my own bed, and the second was “Never, in any circumstances, become involved in planning.” Since then, I have been made a Planning Minister. My advice to my hon. Friend is not to become too heavily involved in disputes between neighbours.
Mr Pickles: If hon. Members will let me make a little progress, they will be able to hear what I am suggesting.
I believe that there is broad agreement on the need for greater flexibilities and freedoms for home owners. It is merely a question of detail, and that detail is contained in planning regulations—secondary legislation—which both Houses will be able to consider in due course, separately from the Bill. However, the Government cannot support Lords amendment 7, which seeks to use the sledgehammer of primary legislation to change the details of planning regulations. The amendment would introduce a wholly new principle allowing local planning authorities to view national householder permitted development rights as completely optional, which would constitute a significant extension of state power over
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private property rights. It is also unnecessary, because a mechanism for responding to exceptional concerns in particular areas already exists.
In 2008, the previous Government extended permitted development rights for home owners—from roof extensions to rear extensions. That did not result in neighbourhood wars; nor did it mean the end of local planning. We believe there is a case for further sensible, practical reforms. In those changes, article 4 powers were reformed, and they were amended in 2010 to give greater local discretion.
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We have always recognised that there will be some areas where national permitted development rights will sit less comfortably and that local authorities should be able to carve out an exemption following appropriate consultation. They can do so by making an article 4 direction. Over 270 directions have been made since 2010.
The Local Government Association has suggested that article 4 directions are not enough, yet there is no real evidence base to suggest that. Councils have powers to make directions to withdraw householder permitted development rights with immediate effect. Immediate directions must then be confirmed by the council following local consultation within 12 months.
A second issue raised is that the council must pay compensation costs if less than 12 months’ notice is given. Compensation would be payable only where a planning application is subsequently refused or conditions are imposed, and a claim for compensation is made relating to householders’ abortive expenditure or other loss. In this case, such loss is likely to be minimal.
Indeed, more broadly, the LGA has not provided evidence on the extent to which councils have been forced to pay out any compensation under the current article 4 regime. I regret that. After an extensive search through correspondence, we can find no example of a local authority reporting to the Department that it has been forced to pay compensation.
The third issue raised by the LGA is that article 4 directions have to be used across an entire use-class. That is not relevant to the matters we are discussing today, which are to do with householder permitted development rights. Importantly, article 4 directions have been made, and can continue to be made, in respect of individual elements within the householder permitted development rights. This is not a blunt tool and can be tuned to local circumstances.
I have not intervened in any article 4 direction since May 2010. We have committed to working with the LGA to update our article 4 guidance as part of Lord Taylor’s review, to ensure that the process is as clear and straightforward as possible.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Article 4 directives are generally used for enforcing restrictions in conservation areas, which is why they are quite restrictive, but this proposal would constitute a major extension of their use. How does my right hon. Friend propose that local authorities would recover the costs associated with that? As I understand it, they are not at present permitted to charge for those costs.
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Mr Pickles: This is a normal administrative process. I will check with my ministerial colleagues, but I believe a London borough—Barking, I think—is currently putting out a consultation with regard to article 4 and betting shops in the area.
There is a misunderstanding here. Where this measure relates to a sole property, we would expect notice to be served, but where it is served generally to an area, the normal process by which we inform the public about planning applications, decisions and appeals would apply.
Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I agree that to permit a local authority to opt out entirely from permitted development measures would be draconian, but does my right hon. Friend accept that there are underlying concerns that article 4 directions may not operate as well in practice as in theory? Is he therefore prepared to consider what further steps might be taken by his Department and local authorities to refine the way in which the article 4 system works?
Mr Pickles: Absolutely, and that is why we are looking towards Lord Taylor’s advice in respect of tweaking the article 4 process. It has undergone a number of changes. It changed under the last Government in 2008, and we made a change in 2010, so article 4 is not set in concrete—it is not buried under a back patio.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Does my right hon. Friend accept that one reason why no compensation has been paid under article 4 is that local authorities are frightened to issue article 4 directives under which they may have to pay compensation?
Mr Pickles: I have enjoyed campaigning with the hon. Gentleman on other issues, but I have to say he is being highly speculative here, as there is no real evidence of such a self-denying ordinance by local authorities.
Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con) rose—
Mr Pickles: I am about to use honeyed terms to try to placate my colleagues who have concerns, but before I get to that dramatic moment, I will give way again.
Mr Walker: I do not want to keep my right hon. Friend from reaching that dramatic moment because I should observe that my Whip said I was going to hear honeyed words and an outbreak of common sense from those on the Front Bench. Some might uncharitably call that a Government climbdown, but I would describe it as listening to the concerns of Back Benchers.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) rose—
Mr Pickles: And before the honeyed words arrive, I can think of nobody more appropriate to give way to than the emollient Chairman of the Select Committee.
Mr Betts:
I am still struggling with understanding why the Secretary of State is resisting amendment 7 and instead arguing in favour of article 4. He says the amendment’s scope is far too wide, but that article 4 is there to be used instead. Are there therefore certain circumstances in which authorities may want to opt out
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of permitted development rights under amendment 7, but would not be able to use article 4? If so, what are those circumstances?
Mr Pickles: Well, one might be concerned that this might be misrepresented as a money-raising exercise—a nice little earner—for local authorities, and that it would be in their financial interests for us to accept amendment 7. It is important that the British public—or the English public in this case—have confidence in the planning system.
Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I would like a little more information. Will the Secretary of State give us his forecast of how many extra extensions we would get in the first year under his proposal, and how many might be lost with the amendment?
Mr Pickles: My right hon. Friend recognises that this represents a boost to industry. [Interruption.] I am sorry if the idea of helping local builders and do-it-yourselfers and people who earn their own living is regarded as unimportant.
Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab) rose—
Mr Pickles: I feel that, somehow, I am returning to confrontational type, and I must avoid that, so let me say the honeyed words, and then I will consider giving way to the hon. Lady.
Notwithstanding my comments on this amendment, I appreciate that there is the separate issue of the detail of the Government’s planned reforms to permitted development rights. I am grieved and distressed that Lords and Members—on both sides of the House—who I would normally look to for advice, guidance and support on planning issues have concerns, so we have listened to them. The Planning Minister and my other ministerial colleague, the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster), have met colleagues from this House to hear their views, and I believe that even at this late hour we can establish a broad consensus on these practical reforms. We will listen carefully to the debate this afternoon—this is, of course, the first opportunity the House has had to debate the matter—reflect on all the points raised and consider in detail the representations made in the consultation on the secondary legislation.
I can announce today that in the spirit of consensus we will introduce a revised approach to the contentious question of permitted development rights for home extensions when the Bill returns to the Lords. If we cannot persuade the other House, the issue will return to the Commons next week so that hon. Members can debate and vote further. Given the discussions I have had with colleagues who have concerns, I believe that the problem is eminently bridgeable. I would like the opportunity to build that bridge.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, and I think that most of us have listened carefully. May I suggest that the ideas put to the other House might, when they come back to this House, be more acceptable than the proposal in front of us?
Mr Pickles: My hon. Friend has, in his succinct way, put the case better than I have.
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Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): I appreciate the seriousness with which the Secretary of State has considered the representations made by Back Benchers to him and his Planning Minister, which is shown by the fact that he is dealing with this group of amendments himself. I am grateful to him for that. However, will he forgive me if I am sceptical and want to wait to see his proposals? This question has caused a great deal of grief to my district council, Chiltern district council, and to many councils across the country and I am afraid that we will not believe what he says at that Dispatch Box until we see the proposals in black and white.
Mr Pickles: Of course, I am cut to the quick by my right hon. Friend’s remarks. She does not need to rely on my persuasion, however, because no matter what happens the issue will come back to this House for consideration.
Zac Goldsmith: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way and welcome his decision to rethink the policy, but given that Lord True’s amendment is modest, it is hard to know what further compromise the Government might accept. Will the Secretary of State provide greater clarity about what he is proposing before we are asked to vote?
Mr Pickles: Considering that I quoted a good page and a half from an excellent document that is, I hope, still in print, I am not entirely sure that the Dispatch Box is the right forum from which to attempt to negotiate the consensus I seek. My hon. Friend has absolutely nothing to lose. He will be involved in the discussions and we will seek to try to reach a sensible compromise. If he does not like it, he can go into the other Lobby and say that he was right all along.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I hope that my right hon. Friend will take this as a helpful intervention. When I was shadow floods Minister, I, in my humble capacity, and the environment, food and rural affairs team worked very closely with the local planning shadow team. We were very concerned about the flood implications of tarmacking over our drives and building extra conservatories. Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance today that that important aspect of the question has been considered?
Mr Pickles: I well remember wandering through the flooding in my hon. Friend’s constituency, complete with wellington boots, and I know that she takes an enormous interest in such matters. It is important to understand that these changes will in no way affect building regulations or the necessity to ensure flood prevention and to take sensible precautions.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I appreciate the fact that the Secretary of State has come to the Chamber today and said that he is prepared to listen, as many of us have concerns. Like other Members, I want to know what is in his mind and what he is thinking. At this stage, I merely urge him to pick up on an adage used elsewhere: it is not all about size.
Mr Pickles: I am always glad to hear that it is not all about size; that is a comfort to me.
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Mr Charles Walker: I thank my right hon. Friend for being most generous in giving way. In deciding what will happen next week, will he discuss his position and that of others with colleagues on the Back Benches so that we can reach consensus on what might be acceptable?
Mr Pickles: Absolutely. My hon. Friend the Planning Minister and my right hon. Friend the Minister—[Interruption.] The Minister from Bath, whose responsibilities are numerous. My hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend have already entered into extensive discussions and I believe, based on those discussions, that the problem is bridgeable.
2.15 pm
Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): I think that the Secretary of State will recognise that the level of attendance in the House today for the consideration of Lords amendments shows how seriously many of us take the matter. To return to his earlier metaphor, he is a good egg and I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. He must not scramble the process, however, and I hope that he will return with substantive changes. Tinkering is not enough; we believe that the policy is seriously flawed.
Mr Pickles: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for not coddling me.
Lyn Brown: I am genuinely grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way, but had I heard his words from a Minister on my own side when I sat on the Government Benches, I would have thought that they were wriggle words—I would not have been persuaded. Will his ideas about what might be changed address concerns in my constituency about beds in sheds?
Mr Pickles: I cannot imagine any circumstances in which permitted development rights would allow beds in sheds. I politely remind the hon. Lady that this Government took decisive action on beds in sheds after years of neglect from Labour.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I am really enjoying the Secretary of State’s performance this afternoon. I must say that the thought of consensus and the right hon. Gentleman does not spring to mind on many occasions. Will he put us, and particularly his Back Benchers, out of our misery and suggest what the great consensual position might be next week?
Mr Pickles: The solutions are available and my Back Benchers have come up with a number of ideas. It would be wholly wrong of me not to place on record my gratitude to the hon. Gentleman for his sterling work in exposing the waste under the previous Labour Government through a series of questions. We on this side are very grateful for all he has done and I certainly intend to put him up for a campaigning award.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I came to the Chamber in the hope that the Secretary of State would give me some assurances that something dramatic would happen. I am not happy, however, about it being debated behind the scenes and not on the Floor of the House. The concerns of Members on both sides of the House are genuine and we feel these pressures intensely when we talk to our local councils.
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Mr Pickles: As consensus goes, this is pretty damn dramatic. It is about as dramatic as consensus gets. I will certainly do my best to make my hon. Friend—and, more importantly, her constituents—happy and contented.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): I take on board the Secretary of State’s point that the LGA has not provided him with sufficient evidence, but will he accept as evidence the fact that many of us have been approached by our councils and their leaders, who have asked us to come along and support the amendment? The change is not one that councils want or one that they think that they can afford.
Mr Pickles: It has been noticeable that discussion in the Chamber is one-sided today. There is concern on the Government Benches and either complete indifference or partisan points from those on the Opposition Benches.
Mr Pickles: I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), but then I think that that must be it as others need to speak.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): I, too, would like more details about the direction of change. As most councils have extensive delegation powers, 90% of extensions go through smoothly. Why is this such a huge measure for those that need more detailed consideration for the sake of the neighbours and the whole neighbourhood?
Mr Pickles: I could not have put it better myself. I believe we can move together, arrive at a broad consensus and ensure that homeowners can see developments take place and that planning officers are not bogged down with unnecessary considerations. I welcome the important scrutiny of the Bill in the other place and the majority of the amendments proposed. In the light of the new commitment to reflect, I hope I have convinced the House that amendment 7 is unnecessary and that it should therefore not be accepted today.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I welcome the Government’s decision to accept all but one of the amendments that were passed in the other place, in particular the sunset clause on section 106, the Secretary of State’s announcement today on the assessment of viability, the fact that at least some criteria will now be published for identifying so-called failing planning authorities, and the right hon. Gentleman’s agreement that when it comes to broadband development, the Secretary of State should have regard to the environment and the conservation of the natural beauty of our countryside.
That leaves the House with the one amendment on permitted development rights, and the very large attendance here today demonstrates the extent of concern. I listened extremely carefully to what the Secretary of State said. There have been many references to eggs in the course of the debate so far. One Member said that the Secretary of State was a good egg, but this particular egg is completely empty when it comes to the detailed proposal that he has in mind. What he said was not persuasive, not just to those on the Opposition Benches but I suspect to those on the Government Back Benches.
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This is, in essence, a debate about how decisions should be taken on extensions to residential properties. It is a debate about, first, the process, and secondly, who should take those decisions. At the heart of the debate is a simple question: is it sensible for the Government to impose the change in permitted development rights on every single local planning authority in England? That is what we are debating. The Secretary of State tries to suggest that the proposal is about empowering people, but what he is trying to do is to take away the rights of neighbours to object to developments that they think will affect their rights and their amenity. That is why there is so much concern.
I think it is a centralist proposal that the right hon. Gentleman has advanced. I do not think that it will give the boost to the economy that is being claimed, because I do not think the back gardens of England should be made the victims of the failure of the Government’s economic policy.
Mrs Main: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider his phraseology? The issue is not necessarily the back gardens of England, but the curtilages of England, which could be a different point entirely.
Hilary Benn: The hon. Lady makes an extremely important point. I was going to raise it in a moment, but I shall raise it now. The Planning Minister told the Select Committee that the development would be limited to 50% of the garden, but the consultation document does not say that. It says 50% of the curtilage of the house. As the Royal Town Planning Institute has pointed out, the two are self-evidently not the same. I would happily give way at this moment to the Secretary of State if he could clarify a simple question. Is it 50% of the garden or 50% of the curtilage?
Robert Neill: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Hilary Benn: Gladly, but the House will have noticed that the Secretary of State, who is responsible for this, cannot answer or is unwilling to answer a very simple question in the House today.
Robert Neill: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer this very simple question? Given his new-found concern for back gardens, will he explain why his Government persisted in regarding back gardens as brownfield development, resisted attempts to reclassify them and permitted more building on back gardens, which was reversed by this Government?
Hilary Benn: I make no apology for having a brownfield-first policy when we were in government. One of the reasons why more and more development is going to be seen on greenfield sites is that in revising the national planning policy framework, the Government have weakened the extremely sensible brownfield-first policy.
There was a hurried consultation on permitted development rights. Reference has already been made to the fact that although the consultation closed on 24 December last, anyone who looked this morning on the Communities and Local Government website to remind themselves of what the Government’s response was, given the great hoo-hah that there has been and the many views expressed, would have found this simple statement:
“We are analysing your responses. Visit this page again soon to download the outcome to this public feedback.”
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I find it extraordinary. Given the extent of the concern and the discussions that have been taking place at the last minute with colleagues on the Government Benches who are immensely concerned about the matter, how is it that all these months after the closing date for the consultation, the Government have not even been able to publish what people said and to respond to it?
I am not surprised that the Government have not been keen to do that because of the extent of the concern expressed. Two arguments have been made. The first was that the Government’s proposal would boost economic recovery. That view is not shared by those who should know. When the Planning Minister was asked by the BBC what would be the economic impact of the measure, he replied, “I don’t know.” The truth is that nobody knows. The Select Committee was not persuaded by the economic argument. It said that the case that the Government had put was
“so tentative, broad-brush and qualified as to provide little assurance that the financial benefits suggested will be achieved.”
Even Anglian Home Improvements, who know a lot about building conservatories, said that the proposals would on their own
“achieve little if anything in terms of securing economic growth”.
If the Government wanted to boost the construction sector and the building of conservatories, they could do a lot worse than to reduce the rate of VAT on home improvements to 5%, as the National Federation of Builders has suggested.
The second argument and the substantive one is that it should be made much easier for people to be able to extend their homes. The Secretary of State knows, as we have heard in this debate, that about 90% of those planning applications for extensions beyond the existing permitted development rights are approved. That shows that the planning system is working to allow these extensions, but what it also shows is that the planning system works to weed out the 10% of applications that are not acceptable. The right hon. Gentleman wants those 10% to be able to go ahead, come what may. That is the consequence of what he is proposing.
Bob Blackman: It is interesting that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to a key point in the debate—the 13% of applications that are currently not approved. Can we be clear about the Labour party’s policy on permitted development? Is it in favour of a free-for-all or in favour of vast restrictions?
Hilary Benn: I shall be very clear. The reason I shall be going through the Lobby to vote against the Secretary of State’s motion today is that I believe that decision should be taken by local communities and local authorities, as the other place suggested. Instead of being decided from the centre, it should be decided locally.
That is the reason why, for example, Richmond council called them “very foolish proposals”, and why the leader of Sutton council said that the Government’s proposals were
“a recipe for disaster....If this is allowed to happen it will set neighbour against neighbour and split communities”.
It is why the leader of Bromley council spoke about
“an uncontrolled planning free for all, causing major problems for future generations”
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“undermine the rights of our residents to voice their views on what will affect their immediate surroundings”.
And it is why Councillor Mike Jones, who leads on the Local Government Association in this field, said:
“All this policy will do is give a green light to the unsightly and out-of-place small scale developments which have already been turned down because of legitimate local reasons.”
The right hon. Gentleman made an argument about article 4. It is an argument that the Planning Minister made when he appeared before the Select Committee back in October, although as we have heard, article 4 is designed to deal with particular problems in particular places. The right hon. Gentleman said he could not find any examples of people who had been able to claim compensation against their councils, although a fair point was made that councils are reluctant to find themselves in that position. It was rather strange, therefore, that back in September the Secretary of State went to great pains to say about councils that do use article 4:
“If they do that, then a member of the public can seek damages against them.”
That sort of suggests that he was saying, “Well, if you don’t like what your council is doing by using article 4, you can always try to get some compensation.”
2.30 pm
Given the slight contradiction there appears to be, even on the Front Bench, between the Secretary of State and the Planning Minister, will the Secretary of State clarify when he winds up whether he would give consent in every case to applications from local authorities to use an article 4 direction to cover their whole area and exempt themselves from the permitted development rights? If he says no, it is not a remedy. If he says yes, he is making the other House’s case for it, because what it has proposed is a much simpler way of achieving the same effect: namely, giving the local authority the right to opt out of the permitted development right proposal in respect of residential dwellings.
I will keep my remarks brief, because many Members wish to contribute. I simply say to the Secretary of State that it is quite clear that his proposals have not been thought through. We know that they will not achieve the boost to the economy he suggested they would. They have engendered an enormous amount of concern and opposition from Members of the House, organisations, local authorities and others.
I listened extremely carefully to what the Secretary of State chose to describe as his “honeyed” words. To be honest, I was expecting something much more significant. In truth, there was nothing there. He has had all this time, since the consultation closed, and he has been well aware for months of the concern that the proposals have created among many of his right hon. and hon. Friends. With great respect, it is not good enough for him to come along today and say, “Okay, I get the message. Honestly, I am sure that we can work this out. Believe me.”
We have a simple choice today: we have the Lords amendment, which simply states that if a local council does not want to do this, it does not have to; and we have whatever might appear in the other place next
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week—I cannot say what that is, and neither can any other Member, because the Secretary of State has not shared with us his thinking on that. On that basis, I urge all Members to accept what the other place has proposed and solve the matter once and for all by rejecting the Secretary of State’s motion and giving local councils the power to take these decisions for themselves, because that would be the localist thing to do.
Robert Neill: As a former sous-chef in the Department, I have no doubt that if my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State says he wishes to achieve a workable and viable compromise, he means it. I trust him and believe him because I know him, and I hope all my hon. Friends think the same.
Very little weight can be attached to the Opposition’s cynical approach. Having spent nearly two and a half years as a ministerial sous-chef stripping away the centralised control that the Labour party placed upon planners in this country and the constraints it placed on local authorities, I think that it ill behoves Labour Members to talk the language of localism.
Lyn Brown: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Robert Neill: I will make some progress before giving way.
It is well known that throughout the history of planning legislation in this country there has been a concept of permitted development. That is not new; it goes back to 1947. It has always been accepted that it is legitimate, for reasons of public policy, from time to time to adjust the criteria that determine what constitutes permitted development, and that has always been done at national level. The difficulty with the Lords amendment is that it would allow a complete opting-out of any adjustment to national policy at a local level, and that seems to me to be nothing other than a needlessly blunt instrument. However, I accept that there is an issue about the operation of article 4 in practice. I know that from my own dealings with local authorities and from my own experience as both a Minister and a councillor.
Lyn Brown: The hon. Gentleman is very kind. I was going to ask him whether he thought that the policy was consistent with the Government’s localism agenda. I think he would agree with me that it is not. Does he agree with me that Newham council has an issue with developments on back gardens that are used as dwellings but are uninhabitable, unsanitary and completely against cohesive communities?
Robert Neill: There is a real issue in Newham and other parts of the country about developments in back gardens. When I was in the Department, it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), then the Housing Minister, who did more to tackle the issue than any Minister before him, and that is now being carried on by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles). This Government are helping to deal with the issue the hon. Lady raises on behalf of her constituents.
I accept that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, with his experience of the matter, understands that we need to find an article 4 system that actually works, rather than the well-intentioned but draconian outcome proposed by their lordships. Rightly or wrongly,
16 Apr 2013 : Column 203
concerns have been raised about how article 4 actually operates on the ground. That relates in part to the point my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) made about a degree of risk averseness among local government officers in recommending them to their members.
Mr Stewart Jackson: Does my hon. Friend not agree with me, however, that it would have been easier to persuade the House of the merits of these proposals if the indicative costs of, say, the enforcement action likely under the new regime, and indeed the indicative economic benefit referred to by the Secretary of State, had been made more explicit in the course of the debate?
Robert Neill: My hon. Friend raises an important point, and I accept the basis on which he does so. Equally, however, there is no doubt a great deal set out in the consultation. I very much hope that the consultation contains some constructive proposals on how we might make an article 4 system work more effectively in practice. I understand his point, but the details are particularly indicative and speculative in these cases because, in general, the Government have rightly taken a policy of not seeking to intervene in local authority applications for article 4 directions, which is a genuinely localist stance. We have in fact made the position more localist by requiring only notification of the article 4 direction, rather than approval by the Secretary of State—a general move back towards localism, which the previous Government never did. That is why I think that, rather than thinking about the indicative costs, we should look at finding a constructive means whereby local authorities have the confidence to use article 4 directions, knowing that they will work and will not create a disproportionate burden.
Bob Blackman: My hon. Friend has vast experience in local government and in planning law. Does he agree that one of the reasons for the impetus behind the campaign to allow local authorities to opt out is the Government’s proposal to double the amount of permitted development that will be allowed? In some parts of the country it will work, but in others it will not. That is the concern of local authorities, MPs and councillors.
Robert Neill: I understand my hon. Friend’s genuine concerns—I do not doubt the good faith with which they are raised—but, equally, I hope he accepts that my problem with the Lords amendment is that it would import a blanket approach to something that has always been adjusted nationally, although however much it should or should not be is a matter for debate. If we are going to change that, we ought to give it rather more consideration.
My other difficulty with the Lords amendment is that it would make a very significant shift in policy by adopting that blanket opt-out approach, without any consideration of that in the consultation. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s stance will enable that to take place.
Mr Betts:
The Select Committee looked at the Government’s proposals and we concluded that the case for the change to permitted development rights for domestic extensions has not been made. The Government’s impact assessment estimates costs of between £5 million
16 Apr 2013 : Column 204
and £100 million, which shows the lack of clarity in their thinking. The impact assessment made no estimate of the social and environmental impacts. Reference has been made to the 90% of proposals that currently gain planning permission, but of those some are changed because of representations on the consultation arrangements that are made as part of the planning consideration. We should be concerned not only about the 10% that are turned down but would be accepted under permitted development rights, but those that are never submitted for planning permission because they are so awful that people know they would be turned down if they were submitted.
On localist issues, what can be more local than an extension to a house? This has no national significance. The Planning Minister has accepted that it will not have any significant impact on economic growth in the country as a whole—it is a local matter. In that case, why not accept amendment 7? The Secretary of State has argued for the use of article 4 instead. Article 4 is time consuming, cumbersome, subject to challenge and potentially costly. It is really meant to be used as an exception rather than as a general rule. The Secretary of State must clarify whether article 4 will achieve the same effect for local authorities as amendment 7, and, if not, what is the difference between them. If the same effect can be achieved under article 4 as under amendment 7, then why not retain amendment 7?
Andrew Bingham: I am not keen on this idea, and I have said so from an early stage, because there would be long-term consequences from what is perceived as a short-term gain. We have heard about monstrous carbuncles; I think that we could end up with a lot of small warts on properties. My constituency of High Peak is a hilly area. A small extension to a property next door but one on a steep hill can have an overbearing effect on the neighbours. To do this without planning permission would be wrong for my constituency and wrong in general. The Lords amendment would give this power to local councils. I do not know what my local council would do with it, although I have a good idea; it may go with it or it may not. The amendment is very sensible. It would devolve the power to our local authorities—our locally elected members—to let them make the decision on whether they want to follow this approach. That is why I will support the Lords amendment and not, I am afraid, its rejection.
Annette Brooke: I, too, welcome the work done in the other place. We have some very sensible amendments and I am pleased that the Government have accepted them.
I have in my hand the representation that I submitted on 24 December, obviously having worked right up until Christmas. Nothing has really changed in the views that I expressed on behalf of colleagues at that time, when we rehearsed the arguments over and again. However, I would like to pick up on the long term effects mentioned by the hon. Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham). The problem is not just that one extension might be a great eyesore and affect neighbours for a long period, but that even when the temporary measure had ended it would be very difficult to refuse an application from houses nearby, so a whole neighbourhood could be affected over time.
16 Apr 2013 : Column 205
I would like my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to say a little more about how he will tackle the issues that we have before us, on which we have had a consultation. They are not satisfactory as they are, and we are in the dark about where we might go next.
Zac Goldsmith: Many colleagues are minded to support the amendment but would like to support the Government. For my part, I would need to hear the Secretary of State say, first, that whatever amendment the Government introduce in the Lords will reflect absolutely the spirit of this amendment; secondly, that we will have time in this Chamber to debate that amendment; and, thirdly, that he is laying out a clear timetable. Without those assurances, I personally, regretfully, will be unable to support the Government and will see myself marching through the contrary Lobby.
Mr Stewart Jackson: In this of all weeks, it pains me to be considering voting for the amendment and against the Government, but this policy has not been well thought out. When the Planning Minister came to speak at the meeting yesterday, he was very gracious but unable to demonstrate the economic benefits. We know that the Secretary of State is between Scylla and Charybdis on this because it is a Treasury-driven issue, and he has played a difficult wicket very well. We have seldom had a situation where so many Conservative councils and other bodies have united to say that legislation is very bad This measures offends against the principle of localism. It is also a credibility issue for this House. It is not absolutely the best thing in the world to be told the Government’s position an hour ago by The Daily Telegraph while the Secretary of State assures us in this House that he is thinking about clarifying the situation.
I am not convinced that densely populated urban areas such as mine will not suffer from the problems raised by the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), such as beds in sheds. We need to take this issue away to demonstrate the costs of enforcement actions in the new regime and the economic benefits. I look to the Secretary of State to reassure the House, but at the moment I am minded, very regretfully, to support the amendment.
2.45 pm
Mrs Main: Regrettably, the only reason this proposal would have any economic benefit is that the scale of such developments would be so large that people would scramble to go and get the thing built before anybody could object to it. I am very unhappy about it. In 2005 we had the high hedges legislation, whereby anything over 2 metres was considered un-neighbourly, and now we are hearing proposals for something that is 4 metres high by 8 metres. This will potentially be extremely divisive in communities. I really feel that the Secretary of State could have offered us a little more today, although I know that he is in a very difficult place in this regard. I believe that in areas such as St Albans, particularly when we have no definitions of curtilage or gardens, this will be a very divisive and ruinous issue.
Mr Pickles:
I think that I can offer the reassurances that colleagues are seeking. It is not a question of simply taking my word for it, regarding me as a good
16 Apr 2013 : Column 206
egg, or whatever. The simple truth is that this proposal has got to come back here to be discussed and voted on. I need the help and assistance of colleagues to ensure that the proposal is voted down. If we do not vote it down, we cannot arrive at a consensus. This would be a wholly unusual and strange process. It would take a sledgehammer to planning system, and that is wholly wrong. I believe that we can give the assurances that my hon. Friends seek, but we need some time to discuss this with right hon. and hon. Members, and then, whatever the outcome, it will come back here on 23 April; that is certain. I ask my hon. Friends to look most carefully at this issue, to support the Government, and, by so doing, to support the rights of property owners and local authorities.
Bob Blackman: There are two key concerns here: first, the rights of local authorities; and secondly—
2.47 pm
Two hours having elapsed since the commencement of proceedings on Lords amendments, the debate was interrupted (Programme Order, this day).
The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83F), That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 7.
The House divided:
Ayes 286, Noes 259.
Division No. 203]
[
2.48 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Glen, John
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Sir Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Maude, rh Mr Francis
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, rh Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mark Hunter
and
Mr David Evennett
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Banks, Gordon
Baron, Mr John
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Bingham, Andrew
Blackman, Bob
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burns, Conor
Burstow, rh Paul
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Champion, Sarah
Chapman, Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Crouch, Tracey
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
de Bois, Nick
De Piero, Gloria
Dobbin, Jim
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Dorries, Nadine
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hemming, John
Hendrick, Mark
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hood, Mr Jim
Horwood, Martin
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr Stewart
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Dame Tessa
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Lewis, Dr Julian
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Main, Mrs Anne
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McCartney, Jason
McClymont, Gregg
McCrea, Dr William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonald, Andy
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Mearns, Ian
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Mulholland, Greg
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
Nokes, Caroline
O'Donnell, Fiona
Offord, Dr Matthew
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pawsey, Mark
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Powell, Lucy
Pugh, John
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reed, Steve
Reynolds, Emma
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sarwar, Anas
Sawford, Andy
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Thornton, Mike
Trickett, Jon
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Ward, Mr David
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
White, Chris
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Phil Wilson
and
Tom Blenkinsop
Question accordingly agreed to.
16 Apr 2013 : Column 207
16 Apr 2013 : Column 208
16 Apr 2013 : Column 209
16 Apr 2013 : Column 210
Lords amendment 7 disagreed to.
The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83F).
Lords amendments 1 to 6, 8 to 24 and 26 to 40 agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments 25 and 7;
That Roberta Blackman-Woods, Karen Bradley, Nic Dakin, Michael Fallon and Andrew Stunell be members of the Committee;
That Michael Fallon be the Chair of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee.
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Karen Bradley.)
Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill (Programme) (No. 3)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Orders of 11 June and 16 October 2012 (Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill (Programme) and Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill (Programme) (No. 2)):
Consideration of Lords Amendments
1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours after their commencement at today’s sitting.
2. The Lords Amendments shall be considered in the following order, namely Lords Amendments Nos. 35 to 40, remaining Lords Amendments.
16 Apr 2013 : Column 211
Subsequent stages
3. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question being put.
4. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—(Mr Randall.)
The House divided:
Ayes 313, Noes 245.
Division No. 204]
[
3.3 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Boles, Nick
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, rh Paul
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen
Dorries, Nadine
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, rh Damian
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Sir Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, rh David
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, rh Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Tapsell, rh Sir Peter
Teather, Sarah
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Ward, Mr David
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mark Hunter
and
Nicky Morgan
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob
Alexander, rh Mr Douglas
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr Joe
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Blunkett, rh Mr David
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Campbell, Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Champion, Sarah
Chapman, Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clarke, rh Mr Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Curran, Margaret
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Wayne
Davidson, Mr Ian
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Denham, rh Mr John
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Francis, Dr Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gilmore, Sheila
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mark
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr Jim
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jamieson, Cathy
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Jowell, rh Dame Tessa
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Khan, rh Sadiq
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leslie, Chris
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Long, Naomi
Love, Mr Andrew
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McClymont, Gregg
McCrea, Dr William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonald, Andy
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McGovern, Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs Anne
McKechin, Ann
McKenzie, Mr Iain
McKinnell, Catherine
Meacher, rh Mr Michael
Mearns, Ian
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr Jim
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Perkins, Toby
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Lucy
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reed, Steve
Reynolds, Emma
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Roy, Mr Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Sawford, Andy
Seabeck, Alison
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shuker, Gavin
Simpson, David
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Trickett, Jon
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watson, Mr Tom
Watts, Mr Dave
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williams, Hywel
Williamson, Chris
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Woodward, rh Mr Shaun
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr David Hamilton
and
Heidi Alexander
Question accordingly agreed to.
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Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Consideration of Lords amendments
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given what the House has just decided, I seek your guidance. The Government have tabled amendments to this Bill in the other place to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board. They did that after the Bill had completed its passage in this House, which means that right hon. and hon. Members have not been able to utter a single word about those proposals. Given the programme motion just decided and the limited time for debate, it seems unlikely that the House will have an opportunity to debate the board’s abolition, and we may not be able to vote on the specific proposals relating to the AWB without compromising other parts of the Bill with which we might agree.
How can it be right for a proposal that will undermine wages for many rural workers to be enacted without this House ever having the chance to debate and challenge the Government on these proposals? May I seek your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): As I think the hon. Lady knows, that is not matter for the Chair and it is certainly not a point of order with regard to business. She has taken time from the business to make her point very forcefully and it is on the record. In terms of guidance from me, I say only that that was not a point of order and there is nothing further that I can do as Deputy Speaker. We will therefore proceed.
I draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendments 64, 65, 66 and 104. If the House agrees to them, I will cause an appropriate entry to be made in the Journal.
Commission for Equality and Human Rights
3.17 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 35.
Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Lords amendments 36 to 38 and Government motion to disagree, and Government amendments (a) and (b) to words so restored to the Bill.
Lords amendment 40, Government motion to disagree, and Government amendments (a) to (h) in lieu, and amendments (i) and (ii) to Government amendments (a), (b) and (c) in lieu.
Jo Swinson: May I say what a great pleasure it is to see you back in the Chair after your time away, Madam Deputy Speaker? I am sure the whole House will wish to echo that sentiment.
As has already been discussed in this place and the other place, the measures in this Bill aim to promote long-term growth and reduce regulatory burdens on business. Consideration in the House of Lords has led
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to important changes to the Bill, the great majority of which the Government believe strengthen and improve it, and we will consider those changes when we discuss the second group of amendments. The first group of amendments deals with the few issues where the Government do not support the change proposed in the House of Lords. We have reflected carefully in the light of the strong views expressed and I will take each issue in turn.
As I outlined on Report, we want a strong, independent Equality and Human Rights Commission, and a great deal has already been achieved since we last debated that matter in the House. We have appointed a new chair of the EHRC, who has been welcomed by Members from all parties, and six new members to its board. We have announced a budget, agreed with the EHRC, to enable it to continue its important work.
Under the leadership of Baroness O’Neill, we are confident that the organisation will go from strength to strength, but for any organisation to be successful, it must have clarity of purpose. The general duty is not a core purpose; it is a much more vague and aspirational statement. Although I am sure that people can agree with the sentiments it expresses, it does not help the commission or anyone else to understand clearly, in a focused way, what it is there to do and, importantly, what it can achieve. That is why we are seeking to repeal the general duty. The change will not hinder the EHRC’s ability to fulfil its important duties and responsibilities.
We are also changing the commission’s monitoring duty to ensure that it reports on its core functions, rather than on the state of society generally. That will enable the EHRC to continue to promote equality of opportunity, tackle discrimination, and protect and promote human rights, but more effectively than before. It will also enable the EHRC to gain the that respect hon. Members want it to have as our equality body and national human rights institution.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Will the hon. Lady explain why there is a contradiction between the EHRC’s core objectives and that aspiration?
Jo Swinson: The EHRC’s objectives are clearly outlined in sections 8 and 9 of the Equality Act 2006. As I have said, although section 3 of the Act and the general duty paint a broad overarching vision, they do not focus specifically on equality, diversity and human rights as outlined in sections 8 and 9, which is what the EHRC needs to focus on day to day.
The House should remember that the commission will still have the responsibility and duty to promote understanding of equality and diversity; to encourage good practice in relation to equality and diversity; to promote equality of opportunity; to promote awareness and understanding of rights under the Equality Acts; to enforce the Equality Acts; to work towards the elimination of unlawful discrimination and harassment; to promote the understanding of the importance of human rights; to encourage good practice in relation to human rights; to promote awareness, understanding and protection of human rights; and to encourage public authorities to comply with section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998. Therefore, the EHRC duties that remain are significant
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and wide-ranging—its remit is wide and it has a huge amount of work to do—but they are not the broad, overarching and rather more vague aspirations outlined in the general duty.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I am disappointed that the Government are resisting Lords amendment 35. Is the Minister aware of the fact, and does she agree, that the general duty has considerable symbolic importance? Following the debate in the House of Lords, the EHRC this week acknowledged that symbolic importance as an indication of the emphasis we place on equality of opportunity.
Jo Swinson: I understand the hon. Lady’s disappointment and the arguments put forward in the other place. She is right to an extent that the debate has become largely symbolic. In a sense, I would argue that it has become purely symbolic. If we were writing the 2006 Act from the beginning and that long list of equality and human rights duties that I have just outlined, people would not say, “Those duties are not sufficient.” Everything that the EHRC wants to do can be done under the existing duties, so she is right that the debate is to some extent symbolic. I do not believe that our measure will have an impact on the day-to-day work of the commission.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): To follow what the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) has said, I remind the House that John Wadham told the Public Bill Committee that he does not regard the change as an attack on the EHRC’s remit. There was no worry in that respect. Since that time, the EHRC made a vague and odd press statement, but John Wadham said that the change does not affect the philosophy, approach or goals of the organisation.
Jo Swinson: I take on board my hon. Friend’s point. We discussed on Report the EHRC council’s evidence to the Committee. As he says, repealing the general duty does not impact on those equalities and human rights duties. There is no suggestion that section 3 of the 2006 Act has any interpretive value in relation to other legislation, including that Act—it has no specific legal effect in and of itself. I understand the concerns, but I challenge hon. Members to suggest what concrete things the measure stops the EHRC doing. The EHRC has the powers and tools it needs to do its important work, which is how it should be.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC) rose—
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab) rose—
Jo Swinson: I will give way to the hon. Lady, but then I want to make progress—I am conscious of what hon. Members have said about the importance of time.
Debbie Abrahams: I raised similar points on Second Reading. What does the hon. Lady think the impact will be on the international community’s view of the Government’s equality and human rights priorities? As many have stated, the international community could see the measure as a downgrading of the Government’s equality and human rights priorities.
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Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady raises an important point and gives me the opportunity to put firmly on the record the importance that the Government attach to the EHRC as the national human rights institution, and the importance of the dialogue and discussions we have had with the International Co-ordinating Committee of National Human Rights Institutions, which will continue. It is vital that the EHRC maintain its A-rated status in that regard. I am therefore asking the House to reject Lords amendments 35 and 36, but I hope I have provided reassurance that the EHRC will be able to fulfil its important role in our society.
Jo Swinson: I am sorry, but I did say that I wanted to move on after taking that last intervention.
We recognise the strength of feeling and the views expressed on caste in another place, and the importance of the issue. It is important to put it on the record that the Government recognise that caste prejudice remains in the UK, not least as outlined in the 2010 National Institute of Economic and Social Research report. It is important to recognise that the problem is entirely contained within Hindu and Sikh communities, which is different from other forms of prejudice and discrimination, which can be much more widespread in society. That is why we are working with those communities to address the problem through an education programme supported by leading community organisations. That will be backed up by further examination by the EHRC, which reports later this year. Last month, the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), outlined the extra funding that had been made available for the “Talk for a Change” pilot project, so we can see how attitudes could be changed within those key communities.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Money for education and understanding is welcome and important. I am glad that the Government recognise that caste discrimination is a problem, but in doing so, why does the Minister not take this opportunity to mention it in law? Some who have tried to drag cases through employment tribunals and others have had great difficulty because caste prejudice is not mentioned specifically in law. If we understand that there is a problem with a form of prejudice, we should try to legislate as well as educate to eliminate it.
Jo Swinson: I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman makes. It is a complex issue, as the previous Government also recognised. There is not one voice from the communities about the right way to tackle this issue, or whether legislation is the best solution to the problems that have been identified. That is why, when the Equality Act 2010 was passed, the previous Government took a power to enable them to introduce caste as a characteristic protected against discrimination through secondary legislation. But the communities are very concerned about the possibility of increasing stigma by using legislation to try to deal with this issue—
3.30 pm
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con):
My hon. Friend’s predecessor as Equalities Minister was clear that the evidence was compelling and that the Government should
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act. Because the Government have not acted, as the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) pointed out, cases of caste discrimination that people would like to bring are being held up. Cannot the Minister understand that the Government need to make a decision today to recognise caste discrimination and put it in legislation?
Jo Swinson: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. We have spoken before about this issue, because it affects many of his constituents. It does him great credit that he speaks out for them and what they would like to see happen. In terms of the evidence of whether legislation is required at this point, we are not yet convinced that it is the right way forward. Some discrimination cases can already be brought under employment law. Some cases of the operation of prejudice would fall outside discrimination law, but might be able to be brought under other forms of law, such as constructive dismissal legislation. The NIESR report contained a range of cases, many of which do not actually fall within the scope of discrimination law, such as prejudice within society outside of the workplace or the sale of goods and services. Therefore the number of cases that would be potentially covered is quite small. A range of groups has expressed significant concerns about legislation on this issue, including many Sikh and Hindu groups, some of which represent low castes, such as Gujarati Arya Kshatriya Mahasabha UK, the Sikh Council UK, the National Council of Hindu Temples UK, the Rita Trust, the Hindu Forum of Britain, Vishwa Hindu Parishad UK, the National Hindu Students Forum UK and Hindu Swayamsevak Sangh UK. All those organisations have expressed their concern about legislating, and we need to listen to their voices.
Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): I have a lot of time and respect for the work that my hon. Friend is doing on this, but there is real disappointment in the House that the Government are not proceeding on this. It is not exclusively a matter for the Hindu community or one that should be decided by the leadership of Hindu organisations, which—if I may say so—may in some cases be facilitating the caste system here in the UK. We need a robust response from the Government very quickly.
Jo Swinson: My right hon. Friend makes an important point about organisations that represent different parts of the Hindu and Sikh communities, and that is why it is important to point out that they do not only represent high castes: some of them represent low castes as well, and there is concern across the spectrum. It is a serious issue that requires serious consideration, and the Government are not ruling out legislation. We have the power to legislate under secondary legislation: what I am saying is that we are not convinced today that that is necessary.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab):
I moved the compromise amendment that was accepted by the whole House. It provided that the Government would legislate if they could identify incidents of caste discrimination. The report identifies such incidents. It was not a matter of the form of legislation: it was a commitment to legislate. The Government are taking an extreme step backwards from what was agreed by the whole House in 2010, when it was opposed by those
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same organisations that the Minister has listed today. Traditional Hindus opposed Mahatma Ghandi’s attempt to outlaw caste discrimination in 1933.
Jo Swinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and the work he has done on this issue over many years. I reiterate some of the concerns that we have heard from those groups. For example, GAKM UK, an organisation that represents a community officially recognised as low caste in India, fears that by enacting this provision, Parliament could undo all the work done by communities over the past 20 years to try to remove the differentiation by caste in all aspects of life. I am not saying that these are not important issues or that ultimately it would not be helpful to enact the provision, I am saying that we need to proceed with great caution, because the communities affected have significant differences of view. That is why we want to ensure that the EHRC makes a further assessment of the views and evidence on this issue, on which it will report back later this year. The Government have already said, through the work and the statement of the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald, and through discussions in the other place, that if the assessment shows that we need to legislate, the option remains open to us.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): I have raised this issue with my hon. Friend. The amendments, on a general duty of equality and on caste discrimination, both had very large majorities in the House of Lords, and I am very sympathetic to them. Bluntly, it seems to me that the only way for the Government to get themselves off the hook is to ask the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which consists of Members from both Houses and all parties, to look urgently at both matters and make recommendations. I sit on that Committee and could make sure that that happens. I think the Committee would recommend that they be supported. I wonder whether the Minister is willing to go down that road.
Jo Swinson: It is not for the Government to instruct Joint Committees to undertake particular investigations.
As I was saying, the reason for caution on the part of the Government relates to a lack of evidence. The NIESR report is clear about the lack of evidence. It states that there is no clear evidence on the extent of caste discrimination and whether it is changing in the UK. Further evidence would therefore certainly be helpful in assisting the Government’s decision making. In addition to what the EHRC is doing, the Government intend to conduct a full consultation and publish a report on its outcome. If the evidence shows clearly that legislation is the right way forward, then, as I have said, powers already exist in law to extend those protections to cover caste by means of a statutory instrument.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): The UK is a signatory to the convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination, and clearly there is a feeling that this is a form of race discrimination. Has the Minister listened to representations from women’s groups? Women may have an additional vulnerability to discrimination within communities.
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Jo Swinson: My hon. Friend raises an important point on whether this is a form of race discrimination. I think that the law shows that in some instances it may well be that cases could be brought under race discrimination when there is an issue of caste, although not necessarily in every case, which is why this discussion has arisen. She is also right to make the point about women’s groups. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald, who leads on this issue, has met a wide range of groups and organisations representing different sides, including women. It is important to ensure that all people in the community are considered.
Taking the step of legislating would mean that every employer, service provider and public authority across Great Britain would need to familiarise themselves with new legal obligations, despite the very low chance of ever being faced with a case of caste discrimination. That is why we have developed an educational programme. The EHRC has offered to complete its examination into how best to address caste prejudice and discrimination, and we will be consulting together for views across the communities. On that basis, I hope the House will agree that it is not appropriate at this time to agree with the other place on amendment 37.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Jo Swinson: I want to make a little progress, because I am conscious of time.
Amendments 38 and 39 focus on health and safety. Addressing the concerns about strict liability for breach of health and safety duties is an important element of the Government’s wider reforms to tackle both the perception of a compensation culture and the damaging effect it has on sensible health and safety management and business growth—concerns consistently reported by businesses.
As was outlined on Report, the purpose of this reform is to establish the important principle that a responsible employer should not be liable to a civil claim for compensation where they have taken all reasonable steps and have not been negligent. The substantive law is unaffected. Criminal offences and their enforcement will not be affected, and employees will continue to have the right to bring claims for compensation where they can prove their employer has been negligent.
The Government do not believe that it is justifiable to hold employers liable for incidents outside of their control that they could not have reasonably prevented. The modern framework of law and supporting evidence and guidance means that employees are in a much better position than they have been historically to demonstrate whether their employer is at fault, and that will remain relevant as evidence in assessing what employers should have known and whether an employer’s behaviour was reasonable. That reform will mean that in future there will be a consistent approach to civil litigation across all health and safety legislation. This is simpler for all to understand and will therefore have a greater impact in increasing employers’ confidence to do the right things to protect their employees and to develop and grow their business.
We have proposed an amendment in lieu of amendment 38 and proposed that the House should agree with the other place in its amendment 39, which,
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as well as reinstating the main provision, would also reintroduce amendments agreed in Grand Committee in response to points raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Committee took the view that a power to extend the policy to wider health and safety legislation was too wide, and the Government have agreed to remove it.
I shall now turn to letting and managing agents. Many letting agents act lawfully and provide a good service, but there is a minority whose service quality is unacceptable—no doubt Members on both sides of the House have heard tales from their constituents where this has been the case. Consumer protection legislation covers many of the problematic practices, but enforcement is patchy, particularly in less serious cases. Also, existing legislation does not give consumers direct access to redress.
The noble Lady Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town said in the other place that her amendment simply required agents to sign up to a redress scheme. In response, this Government amendment gives the Secretary of State the power to make an order requiring letting and managing agents of privately rented and residential leasehold homes to belong to a redress scheme. The Government will consult on the detail, taking into account the recommendations of the Communities and Local Government Committee Select Committee and the Office of Fair Trading.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I look forward, if I can, to contributing to this debate later. In the consultation, will the Government consider setting minimum standards, adopting other codes, such as the code for the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors? Will the consultation also include disciplinary procedures and will there be an improvement to the protection of leaseholder funds?
Jo Swinson: I know that the hon. Gentleman has tabled amendments and is keen to press the Government on these issues. It is important that consumers have access to redress where letting and managing agents do not act as they should. Obviously, the specifics of the consultation have not yet been drawn up, but I am sure that, through Hansard, his suggestions will be well-received. I know that the Minister for Housing, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), will be happy to meet him to discuss his concerns in more detail in order to ensure that we get this right. Taking this power in the Bill will give us an opportunity to ensure that we get the details right. I hope I can reassure him, however, when I say that my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing is keen to ensure that we make speedy progress, while still getting the details right.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I thank the Minister for the letter she sent to me, as Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee. As she knows, we are conducting an inquiry into the private rented sector and are taking evidence on letting agents and proposals to change regulations in a number of areas, but I can assure her that we will, in particular, consider the details of the redress scheme and I hope therefore that we will be able to inform the Government before they consider their secondary legislation in detail.
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Jo Swinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind offer. No doubt, his Committee’s work on this matter will be of great value to the Government when we put together the consultation and work out how to deliver the framework—it will not be a single scheme; there could be a variety of schemes—to ensure that tenants have access to redress.
The Government intend to introduce the secondary legislation as soon as reasonably possible, but it is right that this be an order-making power, because it will give us the flexibility that comes from consultation and the due processes of policy making and scrutiny.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): The Lords amendment tabled by Baroness Hayter simply extended the estate agents system of regulation, which has been in place for more than 30 years, to letting and managing agents. It includes a redress scheme, but goes wider, including to cover some of the concerns that the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) has raised. Why do the Government not simply accept that amendment?
Jo Swinson: The right hon. Gentleman raises a good point, but there is also a good answer. The Government are proposing an amendment in lieu of Lords amendment 40, which, as he said, subjects letting and management agents to the Estate Agents Act 1979. The amendment made to the Bill at present would not properly achieve the effect of requiring redress. It would impose undue regulatory burdens by making such provision much broader. The requirements of the 1979 Act are rightly onerous, because purchasing a house is something that people might do only once or twice in their lifetimes and it involves a huge sum of money. There is therefore a strong case for significant levels of regulation, which is not made in quite the same way for letting agents, where redress is the most important element.
3.45 pm
Jo Swinson: If the right hon. Gentleman is unsatisfied when I have finished answering his intervention, he may have another bite of the cherry. The Government’s other concern about Lords amendment 40 is that it does not work with the devolution settlement, because the 1979 Act is a piece of UK-wide legislation, whereas housing and letting issues are devolved to the devolved Administrations. The amendment would therefore cause a significant difficulty with them. I presume that is an inadvertent effect of the amendment on the part of its movers in the other place; none the less, we would not want it to make it into the Bill.
John Healey: I am somewhat disturbed by that response and the suggestion that the homes that people buy are somehow more important than other people’s homes. We are dealing with people’s homes. Almost 9 million households now rent in the private sector, which includes 1 million families with children. They require some assurance—some security and basic rights in the market that they do not have at the moment—which a redress scheme on its own will not provide.
Jo Swinson:
I understand what the right hon. Gentleman says; we may have to agree to disagree on this matter. He is absolutely right to highlight the fact that we are
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dealing with people’s homes, which is why this measure is so important. Incidentally, it is also something that his party did not see fit to introduce in 13 years in government. This Government are righting the situation by making amendments to ensure that there is a redress scheme. Indeed, when the Lords amendment we are discussing was introduced in the other place, that is the argument that was made and that is what was said was most important. I agree that a redress scheme is important to ensure that where there is a problem, tenants can have an avenue for redress.
Indeed, such a scheme has two functions, because it is not just about ensuring that when somebody has a problem, they can get redress. The very fact that agents have to sign up to redress schemes is in itself a driver of behaviour to ensure less wrongdoing in the first place. More widely, residential leasehold matters are being taken forward separately by the Department for Communities and Local Government in the round tables it is conducting. The noble Lady Baroness Gardner of Parkes raised that issue in the other place.
I hope I have been able to outline the Government’s position on the Lords amendments and provide some reassurance to Members of this House.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): It is good to see you back in your place, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Before I turn to the four issues covered by this group of amendments, it is worth revisiting the supposed purpose of the Bill. It is supposed to be an enterprise Bill that will generate growth. It was referred to as a Christmas tree of a Bill when it left us, but it has since become something of a forest.
Let me deal with each of the four issues in turn. The first is the Government’s move to repeal the general duty for the Equality and Human Rights Commission contained in section 3 of the Equality Act 2006. The Lords wished to reverse the Government’s move to repeal section 3 of the 2006 Act and we agree with them. The general duty sets out the mission and vision of the commission. It is worth repeating that duty, which is for the commission to encourage and support
“the development of a society in which…people’s ability to achieve their potential is not limited by prejudice or discrimination…there is respect for and protection of each individual’s human rights…there is respect for the dignity and worth of each individual…each individual has an equal opportunity to participate in society, and…there is mutual respect between groups based on understanding and valuing of diversity…equality and human rights.”
The Government wish to repeal all of that as part of their red tape challenge, on the basis that it is a
“vague, unnecessary and obsolete provision from the Equality Act 2006”,
as the Minister put it in her letter to me yesterday. I could not disagree with her more.
I made the point on Report that this is not red tape. Vision and mission are important. The reason that the Government have failed on all manner of fronts is that they lack vision and mission. As Baroness Campbell, who sponsored the amendment in the Lords, said, the duty imports the cultural and ethical principles of equality and human rights into the commission’s remit. It makes it clear that the commission is there not just to enforce rules but to change culture.
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Personally, I believe that we as a country have made a great deal of progress in this regard since I grew up here and since members of my family arrived here from abroad. However, Baroness Campbell also said:
“We would not wish to risk slipping back to the time before the Stephen Lawrence inquiry, but if Section 3 goes and the equality duty is weakened or lost shortly after, I feel that is precisely where we will be heading.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 4 March 2013; Vol. 743, c. 1278.]
Indeed, Doreen Lawrence has resolutely opposed the removal of section 3. Baroness Campbell enjoyed overwhelming support from most of the others who spoke on this issue in the Lords, and numerous others outside Parliament have objected to the repeal, fearing that the changes will result in a much weaker body. Those who have objected include Justice, the Fawcett Society, Mind, the Refugee Council and the Equality Trust.
Having listened to the arguments on this matter in both Houses and outside Parliament, the commission itself has now said that unless the Government can provide additional robust reasons for removing the general duty—which they have not done—the case for removing the Lords amendments in the Commons will not have been made. The commission therefore continues to support the retention of the general duty and the maintenance of the position established by the Lords. I put it to the Minister that if the commission is content to support the retention of the duty—which is doing no harm; indeed, it is doing quite the opposite—why does she think that she knows better?
Let us not forget that the Government are not only seeking to water down the commission’s remit; they have also cut its budget by more than 60%. The cut was so great that the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights was moved to write to the Government in June and July last year to express concerns.
Julian Smith: How does the shadow Secretary of State account for the evidence given by John Wadham, the chair of the commission, when he appeared before the Committee? He stated:
“I do not think that it is so problematic, because other parts of the legislation provide sufficient clarity on what our job really is.”––[Official Report, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Public Bill Committee, 19 June 2012; c. 79.]
How does the hon. Gentleman account for the chair of the organisation—[Interruption.] How does he account for a board member of the organisation saying that in Parliament, yet now doing a flip-flop? Which is true? What does the organisation believe, and what does the hon. Gentleman’s party believe?
Mr Umunna:
With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, our party has made it very clear what we believe. Mr Wadham can speak for himself, but I must first point out that he is not the chair of the organisation. Secondly, the Equality and Human Rights Commission has made it clear that it has changed its position on this matter. Thirdly, we are hardly going to find a senior member of an agency such as the commission seeking to have a public row with its Minister. However, I think we all know exactly what people in the commission think. I was told that the last time we discussed this matter in the House, Opposition Members were being cheered on by employees of the commission who were
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watching the debate. I am sure that they are watching this debate right now, and that they will have listened with interest to what the hon. Gentleman has just said.
The Minister should also reflect on what the majority of her party’s members think about this issue. They cannot fathom why she and the Business Secretary are making all these changes to people’s rights at work, to the role of the commission and so on. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), the shadow Minister for employment relations, has told me about his trip to the Liberal Democrats’ spring conference last month. He spoke at a fringe meeting on employment rights—I did not know he was going to do that—at which the Minister tried to justify all these changes. My understanding is that people walked out of that room in disgust at the measures that she is trying to push through today. I have, of course, castigated my hon. Friend for forgetting to take Labour party membership forms with him to dish out; he will take a big box of them next time. We support the Lords amendments in this respect.
Let me turn now to deal with caste discrimination, a matter that has attracted considerable interest outside this House. Labour has a proud history of tackling injustice and discrimination. We believe that people should be able to make the most of their potential opportunities—whatever their race, gender, family background or social circumstances. In recent months, organisations such as the Anti-caste Discrimination Alliance have campaigned for stronger action to tackle caste discrimination, and their case has been powerful. Every community group and every faith group to which we have spoken—on either side of the debate in recent days—has been united in the belief that caste discrimination has no place in our country.
We Labour Members thus believe that we must send a strong and clear message today—that caste discrimination is completely unacceptable, and that we support taking more action. That is why we will support the amendment. We need to do more to ensure that the small number of people who face such injustice have access to the redress they deserve and have somewhere to turn to for support.
It is fair to say, however, that some have raised legitimate concerns about the practicalities of how the legislation would work—about its drafting and implementation. We take those practical points seriously and we agree that any new action we take must over time reduce rather than increase the number of people being identified by their caste, eliminating discrimination in the future.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman and I think all of us are united in believing that any form of discrimination—caste or any other form—is entirely wrong. It is interesting to reflect that the hon. Gentleman is talking about this issue in 2013, yet the Labour party was in power—I know he was not here then—for 13 years. Did this issue not come up at any time over 13 years and, if so, why did the Labour party not bring forward any proposals at the time? It should welcome the fact that this Government are the first to put forward an education programme to deal with the issue.
Mr Umunna:
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but we sought to deal with the issue through the Equality Act 2010 and then by providing for further action to be taken thereafter. It is not fair for him to say that we took
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insufficient action during our time in government: we needed to allow time for the communities concerned to adjust and to provide an opportunity for the education which he talks about. Despite the time that has passed—the Act was passed back in 2010—it is clear that more still needs to happen.
We do not believe that the Government are doing enough on this issue, which is part of the reason why we will vote against the Government’s motion to disagree with the Lords amendment. I hope that further discussions can take place here about the implementation of action against caste discrimination before the matter is discussed again in the other place. People on both sides of the debate have said loudly and clearly that they would like far more consultation on the subject. We hope that that can happen. The goal—the place where we all want to be—is to reach agreement on a way forward over the next few days before the provisions arrive back in the House of Lords.
Richard Fuller: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Umunna: I will move on, because we are short of time and I want to ensure that others can come into the debate.
I shall move on to deal with health and safety. Clause 61, to which Lords amendments 38 and 39 apply, is designed to remove civil liability for breaches of duty imposed by health and safety regulations. In so doing, it overturns an accepted and established health and safety regime that has been on the statute book for a very long time—for over a century. What the Government are seeking to do is overturn legislation that has been in place since a ruling in 1898. The consequence of that is serious. The clause removes the existing and long-established right of an employee to rely on a breach of health and safety in any claims for personal injury. As was said in the other place, in respect of employer liability it will force injured employees to face
“a near impossible evidential burden.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 March 2013; Vol. 743, c. 1502.]
The Association of Personal Injury Lawyers has stated that the clause will favour negligent employers over those who take health and safety considerations seriously and who treat people with the care that they are due.
The Government have not been able to provide evidence on the matter to support legislative change. They justify their amendment by referring to a recommendation in Professor Löfstedt’s report “Reclaiming health and safety for all”, published in November 2011. However, Professor Löfstedt himself has expressed doubts about the Government’s plan. In his review of progress a year on from his report, he states:
“the proposed amendment to the Health and Safety at Work Act reverses the current position on civil liability. This means that, unless exceptions apply, claims for compensation in relation to breaches of health and safety legislation will need to prove that the employer has been negligent. The approach being taken is more far-reaching than I anticipated in my recommendation.”
4 pm
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab):
Does my hon. Friend agree that as a result of the failure of cases that would otherwise have succeeded, people who have not received compensation will look to the statutory
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authorities for their rehabilitation—for their care, speech therapy and physiotherapy—and that that will effectively constitute the nationalisation of rehabilitation?
Mr Umunna: I do agree. I think that describing it as the nationalisation of rehabilitation is entirely appropriate. I know that my hon. Friend, whose practice advised people who were claiming for personal injury, speaks with the benefit of huge experience.
The Government declined to undertake the review that Professor Löfstedt recommended on the restriction of the number of situations in which strict liability would apply, saying that it would be too complex. The other place rightly voiced serious concerns about that. Lord McKenzie of Luton said:
“On the basis of the flimsiest of evidence, the opportunities for those injured at work to obtain redress are being substantially impaired. We should be very clear about that. This is not ‘business as usual’. The beneficiaries, of course, will be the providers of employer's liability insurance. The losers will include taxpayers because reduced compensation will mean reduced benefit recovery.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 March 2013; Vol. 743, c. 1504.]
In less than a fortnight it will be workers memorial day, and many ceremonies, involving many Members of Parliament, will take place around the country to remember men and women who have been injured or killed in the workplace. The current framework is accepted and well established, and has helped to prevent workplace deaths and injuries. I ask the Government to reflect on the debate and the vote in the other place, and to preserve the status quo in the interests of the appropriate balance of rights and responsibilities between employee and employer in keeping the employee safe at work. We support the Lords amendment in that context.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I apologise for arriving late. I was at a meeting of the Backbench Business Committee.
My hon. Friend has just made an important point. This is not about compensation as such; it is about ensuring that employers introduce and abide by regulations that prevent accidents from happening in the first place because they are frightened of having to pay the compensation. That financial disincentive will drive employers to do the right thing in circumstances in which they might not otherwise have done so. This is not about people at work receiving money; it is about people at work not getting hurt and not getting killed.
Mr Umunna: I entirely agree. This is one of the aspects of the debate on health and safety that I find particularly frustrating. While we must of course retain a balance, we must also be clear about the fact that protecting people at work and keeping them safe is not a matter of red tape. It is a matter of safety at work.
Lords amendment 40, to which the Government have tabled their own amendment, relates to estate agents. It represents a welcome U-turn by the Government, who have backed Labour’s proposals to give greater protection to tenants and landlords by forcing letting agents to join a scheme to deal with complaints. It is a victory for tenants and landlords who rely on agents to rent, or care for, their property in a market described as the wild west by the industry itself.
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I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the organisations across the sector who have worked with us to secure this change in position from the Government. Tenants and landlords have for too long had little protection, and have been bewildered as to why it has taken so long for the Government to recognise the need for change. Until this eleventh-hour U-turn, the Government seemed out of touch and isolated on this issue. It is good that they have changed position, recognising the need for a proper complaints system for all consumers. However, we are disappointed that the Government have not gone further, having rejected other parts of Baroness Hayter’s amendment.
John Healey: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that slight qualification, but he may be in danger of overstating the extent of the U-turn. There are growing problems of unjustified, unfair, upfront fees, misleading advertisements, repairs not being done and visits not being made. This is a step in the right direction, but it is a small step, and will prove insufficient to deal with a market that is not functioning properly and fairly in the interests of tenants or landlords.
Mr Umunna: There must be some telepathy going on here, because I was about to go on to say that it is important to note that the majority of the sector see the Government’s amendment today as a first step, not a last word.
Sir Peter Bottomley: The issue of caste was very well covered yesterday on the BBC’s “Newsnight” programme, and I hope the Government will take up the suggestion that there should be discussion over the next few days about how the points made can be incorporated into the aim to get fairness. My reaction on watching people describe what it was like to be told by someone junior to them that they should not take orders from them because of something that happened in their family past was that that was ludicrous.
Ghandi called the untouchables the children of God over 70 years ago—in the 1930s, I think—and we ought to find some way of picking that up and echoing it in our country.
I could speak on a number of issues, but I will stick to the issue of agents, and in particular leasehold managing agents. I hope that when the Select Committee looks at this, it will address not only the letting of residential tenancies but the 3 million leaseholds in this country, many of which are held by people who are old, frail and on fixed incomes. My hon. Friend the Minister may be right to say that the majority of managing agents behave well. In the past, however, many of them, and especially those who were associated with the freeholder, ripped off their leaseholders left, right and centre. Such agents are a minority, but they hold the majority of the responsibility for managing leasehold properties, and the faster they are brought out into transparency and openness, the better.
I pay tribute to the Minister for Housing. Through his efforts and the co-operation of his colleagues, the Government have come forward with a welcome initiative. I am not arguing it is completely right—I would be surprised if it were—but its 10 measures deal with a variety of issues, the most important of which is openness.