“by 2016 Scotland’s airports will be handling around 2.1 million passengers per annum fewer than they might have been if the APD changes since 2007 had not been implemented.”
“Constraining the growth of Scotland’s airports via APD can ultimately only have a negative impact from this perspective. APD makes it harder for airports to attract new routes or improved levels of service. Over time this will impact on Scotland’s attractiveness as a place to invest and its competitiveness in international markets. This in turn will negatively impact on Scotland’s international economy, including key sectors such as banking and finance, oil and gas, creative industries, technology businesses and advanced manufacturing”.
By establishing the highest passenger tax on flying in the world, the UK Government have finally managed to become the best in the world at something: unfair taxation. They are blocking growth with a gatekeeper tax.
The SNP Government are building a better Scotland. Scottish GDP grew by 0.5% during the fourth quarter of 2012—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), who is from north-east England, might laugh, but I am sure a successful Scotland on his border would benefit north-east England as well. Would he rather have an independent successful Norway on his border or a Scotland that at the moment is in hock to whatever decisions are made by the Tories at Westminster? “Better Together with the Tories” is the Labour mantra.
Phil Wilson: If air passenger duty is devolved to Scotland that will impact on the airports at Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley. To go further and say that independence will help north-east England is ridiculous.
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Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman should look to opportunities rather than scaring and fear-mongering. I imagine the opportunity that cheaper flights might afford his constituents would be welcomed, but he can answer to them on that. While Scottish GDP grew by 0.5%, that of the UK fell by 0.3% in the last quarter of 2012. Debt levels in Scotland are lower than in the UK as a whole, and just yesterday new figures revealed the largest rise in employment for 12 years, with unemployment below 200,000 for the first time since 2009. Unemployment in Scotland is 7.3% versus 7.9% in the UK.
Recent figures also show a new record that is very different from the UK Government’s record on APD. Ours is a record of the participation of young people in higher education—a rate that is considerably higher than in England thanks to a policy based on the ability to learn rather than the ability to pay. There is a different philosophy in Scotland. However, we do not measure ourselves against the rest of the UK; after independence we look to have a society and economy that in many aspects matches Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Denmark, among many others. We know that we can do even better, but we must listen and do what industry is telling us. The message is clear: APD is too high and must be devolved so that the Scottish Government can deliver a better connected Scotland.
The UK Government have been ignoring industry, the people and the Scottish Government for far too long. That is why support for independence will grow, as more come to understand the continuing damage that Westminster does, whether by omission or commission. What is at the root of all the wrong-headedness? The fact is that the UK Government are caught in a trap with their devotion to the cult of austerity. That is seen in the bedroom tax, which will make matters worse pulling by pulling £1.6 billion from the Scottish economy, according to an article that I read, I think, in the Financial Times.
The focus is wrongly on austerity; the focus should be on growth and, as I have laid out, this tax is the enemy of growth. What matters is not debt itself, but debt to GDP ratio. There is then the issue of servicing that debt—the interest obligation, as Professor Robert Pollin said this morning on the “Today” programme when challenging the underpinning philosophy of austerity. With interest rates low, not only is the Government’s focus wrong, their understanding is wrong, and with the cost of borrowing low, the underpinning arithmetic is wrong. This tax is part of the wrong philosophy that the Government are following at Westminster and to which Labour bind us with the Better Together campaign.
I understand that the Labour party leader in Scotland, Johann Lamont, who is the boss of all Labour MPs in the Chamber, including the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire, is presenting a paper to the Labour conference in Inverness that, it is reported, includes the devolution of APD so that it is independently controlled in Scotland. My goodness! Labour is coming round to the independence agenda. Scottish National party Members are delighted with those steps. Surely Labour Members will come through the Lobby with SNP Members this evening rather than deliver a slap in the face to their leader by not attending the conference en masse, or by sitting on their hands today, now that they have lately left what has been known as the Bain principle, whereby Labour Members refuse to support anything the SNP does
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simply because it is done by the SNP. They could come through the Lobby with us this evening and display not only sound thinking, but their loyalty to, and support for, their leader and boss, Johann Lamont.
I extend the hand of welcome to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire. I am sure Labour will not want to give anybody in the Committee the impression that Labour in Scotland is not a happy band.
4.30 pm
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): What about a Miliband?
Mr MacNeil: Mr Miliband will not be there long—do not worry about him.
Surely the SNP and Plaid Cymru will not be the only champions of economic growth and the travelling public, and particularly the less wealthy travelling public of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. The travelling public seem to have no champions other than the SNP and Plaid Cymru for their businesses and holidays. I encourage other hon. Members to support the cut of the poll tax on our skies: businesses want it, hard-working families want it, and economic growth needs it.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): When I arrived in the Chamber and listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), I had to check that the debate was on the Bill and not on Scottish independence.
I am opposed to airport duty tax. It is a regressive tax and it is wrong. It is a tax on business and tourism, and on our skies and travel. It is wrong not just for little Northern Ireland and little Scotland; it is wrong for every citizen of the UK. I am certainly not taking the position that we should scrap it in parts of the UK. It should be scrapped for all of the UK—the UK Government need to get that message loud and clear.
Mr MacNeil: Given what the hon. Gentleman says, I assume he will support SNP Members in the Lobby when we try to strike down clause 183.
Ian Paisley: I will come to that in a wee minute. The hon. Gentleman will have to bide his time and be patient, or, as we would say, houl yer whisht. Perhaps he knows what I mean by that.
It is important to put on the record that Northern Ireland has an international connection and an international carrier from Aldergrove airport to Newark airport, which is just outside New York. It flies every day in peak season—one flight a day in, one flight a day out. We have no other international carrier. However, the same carrier operates from Dublin, which is 90 miles down the road, to Newark. In the last number of years, the business in Northern Ireland was put under threat for one reason only: the airport authority and the carrier had to subsidise one another to the tune of £1.5 million. Had they not done so, the business would not exist, and people would be forced to travel 90 miles down the road and pay a lesser tax.
The price difference was staggering—it meant that it was possible to travel 90 miles down the road. Filling a car with petrol or diesel and driving to Dublin costs
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about £50—there would also be a car park charge—but the APD for that international flight from Northern Ireland was £150. The duty in the Republic of Ireland was €3. The difference would have ruined that business. It was essential on those terms that we got rid of APD for that international flight. My position is that I want the duty removed for the whole UK. That is what the debate is about. The measure is about internal flights in the UK, including, of course, our glorious and noble Scotland.
I am concerned that there is an element, or even a huge big bit, of fudge, which we should avoid. The policy, which should be set out loud and clear, should be the scrapping of APD for all of the UK.
Jonathan Edwards: It is with pleasure that I introduce my new clause 4 and new schedule 1; I hope to press the new clause to the vote at the appropriate time.
The UK Government’s Commission on Devolution in Wales, headed by Sir Paul Silk, published the first phase of its report in November 2012. This phase concentrated solely on fiscal powers. Here we are, five months later, still waiting for the UK Government response, which was originally said to be due this spring. In a matter of a few weeks, the cricket season will be upon us and it will be summer, yet we are none the wiser about the intentions of the UK Government.
In short, the Silk commission recommended that powers over stamp duty land tax, the aggregates levy, air passenger duty for long haul, landfill tax and business rates be devolved in their entirety and as soon as possible. It also advocated a sharing arrangement for income tax. In addition, it argued—importantly—that should corporation tax be devolved to Northern Ireland, Wales should not be left behind. I reiterate the point that I made on the closing day of the Budget debate—that we are very interested to see the strong lobby, led by the CBI, coming from Northern Ireland. In total, the fiscal powers advocated by Silk for immediate devolution—the minor taxes—together account for about £1.2 billion of the Welsh Government’s budget.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Does my hon. Friend find it strange, as I do, that no one representing the Labour party in Wales is present to back the policy of the Labour Government down in Cardiff?
Jonathan Edwards: I am extremely grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention, as we had a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee on this issue, and Labour speaker after Labour speaker lined up to say that they not only were in favour of the Silk recommendations on minor taxes, but wanted them devolved immediately. They went even further, saying that the Finance Bill was the appropriate vehicle for achieving that.
Mr MacNeil: I have a certain understanding of the word “immediately”, and I am sure that my hon. Friend does, too. Does he think that that understanding of the word is shared by Labour in Wales?
Jonathan Edwards: That is the exact point. This was said to be the appropriate legislative vehicle for devolving airport duty to Northern Ireland, and if it is good enough for Northern Ireland, it is certainly good enough for Scotland and Wales.
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Needless to say, the proposed powers fell far short of what Plaid Cymru was advocating as a party. We wanted a more comprehensive list of job-creating and economy-boosting powers, including VAT, corporation tax, resource taxes and capital gains tax. In the interest of compromise, however, and not second-guessing Silk, we are happy to proceed as the commission recommended—not least because the fiscal powers recommended by Paul Silk and his team in the commission’s report are desperately needed for the sake of the Welsh economy. The minor tax powers, the income tax sharing arrangement and the borrowing powers that would be triggered as a result would enable us in Wales better to deliver job-creating and economy-boosting measures and policies to help turn around the continuing dire state of the economy.
Yesterday’s unemployment figures showed a small drop in unemployment in Wales, but the number of economically inactive people went up by 7,000. The rate is still 0.4% higher than in the UK, and there are still nearly 50,000 more people unemployed in Wales than there were before the recession began, and another 50,000 more people who are under-employed. That is on top of the extra 50,000 public sector jobs we expect to be lost in the coming years on top of the 24,000 that have already been lost.
Last week’s research by Sheffield Hallam university and the Financial Times, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) referred, highlighted that more than £1 billion is due to be taken out of the Welsh economy over the next year by cuts to social security. This will have a devastating human cost, which is becoming all too clear.
The private sector is already on its knees in Wales due to the depression caused by the disastrous economic policies pursued by both Labour and Conservative Westminster Governments, which have destroyed the productive economies within the British state. It will deteriorate further as money is sucked out of local economies through further austerity. We are yet to see any realistic plan of how jobs and growth will come about in these depressed areas or any effort to counterbalance the austerity cuts, despite the high rhetoric of geographical rebalancing.
There are three important reasons why the Welsh Government should be empowered with fiscal powers as advocated by the Silk commission and as proposed in my new clause. First, it would make the Welsh Government more accountable. Secondly, it would incentivise the Welsh Government to concentrate on developing the economy to raise the necessary revenue to invest in public services. Lastly, an independent fiscal stream would enable the Welsh Government to access the borrowing powers they have agreed with the UK Government.
Labour’s proposals for substantial cuts in Welsh capital spending in the last Budget that it presented before losing office were supported in the Conservative-Liberal Democrat comprehensive spending review in October 2010, which cut the Welsh capital budget by 42%. Announcements in subsequent UK Budgets or autumn statements have meant that the final cut is about 39%. Although that is admittedly a smaller reduction than the one planned by Labour, it represents a huge hit for economic activity in Wales. The devolution of minor taxes and the triggering of borrowing powers would go
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some way towards filling the gap, enabling the Welsh Government to invest in infrastructure projects and generate economic momentum.
Hywel Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again; he is being very generous. Does he agree that the term “minor taxes” is a misnomer, given that those taxes constitute a key that could unlock substantial moneys which the Welsh Government could invest in dealing with our economic difficulties?
Jonathan Edwards: That is exactly the point. We have experienced twin processes in Wales. We have had the Silk commission, but there has also been a bilateral negotiation between the United Kingdom and Welsh Governments. The consequence of that negotiation was that the Welsh Government would be given borrowing powers if it had an independent fiscal stream. That is why my new clause is so vital for the Welsh economy.
In January, the Welsh Grand Committee debated the commission’s part II recommendations. Although there was a difference of views over the proposals for income tax-sharing arrangements, it was broadly accepted on all sides that the minor taxes recommendations should be implemented as soon as possible. I must confess that during that debate I became slightly confused. Unionist politicians were in favour of full devolution of some taxes, but opposed to a sharing arrangement between the UK and Welsh Governments in relation to income tax. My natural conclusion following the debate was that as there was a consensus at least in relation to the minor taxes, we ought to get on with devolving them swiftly rather than waiting for what could be years for a new Government of Wales Act.
The most prominent of the minor taxes is covered by the air passenger duty recommendation. It is difficult for us to table amendments relating to the other minor taxes at this stage because consideration in Committee is in the hands of the usual channels, from which my party is excluded, but we are at least able to consider the devolution of air passenger duty. I suggest that that should serve as a spur for the implementation of the other minor tax powers recommended by the commission.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Silk commission said that his package should be viewed as such—as a package? I share the hon. Gentleman’s impatience as we wait for the Government to respond to part I of the Silk recommendations, but we should nevertheless see them in that light.
Jonathan Edwards: I think that the question for the hon. Gentleman is this: if he favours the devolution of fiscal powers to Wales, should he not walk through the Lobby with us rather than waiting for another Government of Wales Bill? When will that Bill come before the House? When will the legislative gap arise? If he is promising me that the Bill will be in the Queen’s Speech, we may consider whether or not to press new clause 3 to a vote.
If the Committee supports the new clause, I shall expect the Treasury to include the other minor taxes and business rates as the Bill proceeds, and to implement fully this aspect of the Silk recommendations.
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Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Is it not strange that no Welsh Labour Members are present to debate air passenger duty, given that the Labour First Minister of Wales has spent many millions of pounds of Welsh money on buying an airport in Cardiff?
Jonathan Edwards: My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point, to which I shall return. Fifty million pounds of Welsh taxpayers’ money has been spent on buying an airport, and no Labour Member from Wales is present this evening to vote for a proposal that would enable the Welsh Government to make the most of that asset. It is a disgrace, and I hope that the Welsh media are listening to the debate and will report on it fully.
Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman actually informing the House that Labour at Westminster does not want to give powers to Labour in Wales because it wants to leave those powers with the Tories in Westminster? Is that the situation with which we are dealing? Does Labour prefer to put power in the hands of the Tories rather than in the hands of Labour? Does Labour trust the Tories more than Labour trusts Labour? This is bizarre.
Jonathan Edwards: I believe that that is indeed the case.
Admittedly the revenue gathered from the minor taxes, although not insignificant, is relatively small in comparison with the revenue that would be available through the income tax-sharing arrangement recommended by the Silk commission. That would make the Welsh Government responsible for 10p in every pound of income tax raised in Wales. It would enable the Welsh Government to increase their borrowing capacity substantially, and would strengthen the accountability test. My intention is to return to that at a later stage of the Bill’s progress. It would also undoubtedly incentivise the Welsh Government to grow the economy in Wales and provide responsibility for its expenditure. It is also clear that fair funding and the proper resolution of the blatant inadequacies of the Barnett formula, whereby we estimate that Wales loses out on an average of £500 million a year, are desperately needed, but that resolution must not be used to block the partial devolution of income tax or the minor taxes.
4.45 pm
Non-domestic rates, or business rates, are another minor tax that it would have been ideal to devolve to Wales in this Finance Bill, thereby incentivising local authorities in Wales to expand their economic bases. Long-haul air passenger duty was devolved to Northern Ireland in last year’s Finance Bill and the Silk commission has recommended the devolution of long-haul APD to Wales.
Ian Paisley: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is clarifying the matter. The power has been devolved but it has not yet been implemented and, like him, I would urge our Executive to implement it. It will help business and the whole of the United Kingdom could benefit, including Wales, Scotland and England, if they get on with it.
Jonathan Edwards: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. That is especially the case in Wales, as the Welsh Government own our national airport.
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It is clear that the Bill is the appropriate legislative vehicle to move this issue forward. There is a clear precedent and, as I said, I believe the Treasury should accept the amendment, as it includes all the minor taxes recommended by Silk.
The Labour Welsh Government have recently acquired Cardiff airport, and the ability to attract long-haul flights to Cardiff would significantly improve the airport’s competitiveness. Cardiff airport has 1.5 million people in its catchment area and long-haul flights could attract people from even further afield. The development of Cardiff airport could act as a spur to growth in the south Wales economy, bringing in greater foreign direct investment through better business links, in turn bringing jobs and growth.
Quite frankly, I am amazed that the Labour party has not tabled its own amendment. That goes to show that the First Minister has absolutely no influence over his bosses down here. On Tuesday of this week, he stood in the National Assembly telling the Members and the people of Wales that
“the most important thing is to ensure that Silk part 1 is progressed”.
I would expect Labour MPs to file through the Aye Lobby when we vote, or his authority will be fatally undermined—but as the Labour Whips have sent them home, that will not be the case.
The fact that the Treasury has not used the Finance Bill to implement Silk also shows once again that Wales is an afterthought in the machinations of the British state. Those powers should be devolved, yet there is delay even though it is apparent that there is broad consensus among the main parties who represent Welsh constituencies, as evidenced in the Grand Committee debate and despite the fact that the commission received representations from all parties. Each month that passes by without these powers being devolved, the Welsh economy further deteriorates with job and economic prospects diminished, hopes and dreams shattered and lives ruined.
Over Easter, I attended a major forum meeting organised by Carmarthenshire county council to move the proposed Llandeilo bypass project forward. Despite being high up the Welsh Government’s priority list as a transport infrastructure project, it is being held up as a result of the savage cuts to capital budgets in Wales. If the amendment is successful, it will enable the Welsh Government to access borrowing powers to move the scheme and many others like it forward. In Carmarthenshire there is cross-party support for the project, and I would like to close by kindly informing my political opponents that should they fail to support the amendment their grandstanding in supporting projects such as the Llandeilo bypass will be exposed and there will be a heavy political price to pay in my constituency—a constituency I believe the Labour party view as a target seat come the next Westminster election.
Pete Wishart: No chance, not with you there.
Jonathan Edwards: Well, I am grateful for that comment.
Plaid Cymru has made jobs and the economy its absolute priority. That is why we have tabled this amendment on air passenger duty. We want to create a modern and prosperous Wales, and unlike our political opponents
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we have little faith in London Governments of whatever colour achieving that ambition. That is why we want the tools to get on with the job ourselves without delay.
Mr Reid: It is important to set out first of all what the debate is not about. It is not about whether air passenger duty is a sensible tax; it is about whether we should be devolving air passenger duty on long-haul flights to Scotland and Wales. I must admit that I was disappointed by the lack of preparedness of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) for the debate, as he was not able to answer a simple question from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe). It must be remembered that the SNP has the whole Scottish civil service machine to back it up. I am extremely surprised that the hon. Gentleman did not come armed with an impact assessment produced by the Scottish Government to show the benefits of devolving the tax to Scotland. He had no impact assessment whatever.
Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman for or against the devolution of APD to Scotland?
Mr Reid: I am waiting for somebody to advance the case for that. The Scotland Act 2012 contains provisions whereby, if the Scottish Government make the case to the UK Government for any tax to be devolved, that tax can be devolved. I am waiting for the Scottish Government to make the case.
Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is a politician, a Member of Parliament elected to Westminster. Is he unable to advance the case himself to devolve APD to Scotland? That is a shocking state of affairs.
Mr Reid: It is the hon. Gentleman who tabled the new clause and spoke to it today. It is incumbent upon him to make the case. I do not have the benefit of the entire Scottish civil service machine at my beck and call, which the SNP has.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Could the hon. Gentleman please tell the Committee what is the policy of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, the party he represents? What is his party’s policy?
Mr Reid: What we are debating today is a proposal from the SNP and Plaid Cymru to devolve certain aspects of APD relating to long-haul flights from Scotland and Wales. I was expecting an analysis to be presented, but hon. Members could not even tell us the number of flights that would be affected. When the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar moves amendments in future, he should present detailed analysis of the benefits and everything else that would be affected.
To compare the situation of Scotland with that of Northern Ireland is not accurate. As I said in an earlier intervention, the justification for devolving air passenger duty to Northern Ireland was the land border with the Irish Republic, which means that people from Northern Ireland would be attracted to travel to airports in the Irish Republic for long-haul flights to take advantage of
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the lower taxation. That situation clearly does not apply in the case of Scotland and Wales. People would not save money by travelling from Scotland to the Irish Republic in order to take a long-haul flight.
Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman conduct a little thought experiment? Imagine that the Irish Republic had the same level of air passenger duty as the United Kingdom. What would the net effect be? It would be fewer people flying, which would dampen our economic growth. The point of having APD devolved is to enable economic growth. I hope the hon. Gentleman can grasp that fundamental point. I also hope that if the Liberal Democrats have a policy of devolution of APD, it is to devolve it to Scotland. If they do not have a policy, I would be very pleased to provide the SNP’s policy, which they can adopt free of charge.
Mr Reid: As the hon. Gentleman perfectly well knows, the SNP policy is clearly for independence, not for devolving particular taxes. He may put forward a good case for not having APD at all, but that is not what we are debating today. There are perfectly good arguments for abolishing APD or for a lesser rate of APD outside London and a higher rate of APD for the likes of Heathrow. The Heathrow tax was mentioned. Good arguments could be advanced but that is not the debate today. The debate today is on the specific proposal to devolve APD on long-haul flights from Scotland and Wales. I am disappointed that with all the back-up that the SNP has from the full Scottish civil service machine, it was not able to present a proper impact analysis today.
As I was saying, the Scotland Act contains provisions that allow the Scottish Government to request that extra taxes be devolved, so there is a system for doing that. I suggest that the way forward for the SNP is to request that the UK Government, under that Act, consider that. We could then have a proper, detailed debate with all the facts and figures at our disposal.
Mr MacNeil: One of the quotes I gave earlier mentioned the fear of the loss to Scotland of 2.1 million passengers before 2016. Would that information not at least encourage the hon. Gentleman, if he is going to develop a policy, to develop one in favour of the devolution of APD?
Mr Reid: Well, that is something the Scottish Government could put forward to the UK Government as an argument for devolving the tax. I will take an intervention from any SNP Member who can—
Angus Robertson: I will ask the hon. Gentleman my question a second time: what is the policy of the Scottish Liberal Democrats?
Mr Reid: I gave way to the hon. Gentleman on the assumption that he would answer my question, rather than coming up with another one himself. I think that we have exhausted this debate. In conclusion, the SNP and Plaid Cymru have not made the case today, so I will not be following them into the Lobby.
Cathy Jamieson:
It is always entertaining to hear the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who moved new clause 3 on behalf of the SNP. I have
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shared a few flights with him, both short-haul and long-haul, and know how passionately he speaks on these matters. I hope to take a flight to Inverness in the not-too-distant future—
[
Interruption.
]
It is great to hear that SNP Members are so keen for me to get to the Labour conference, along with the other Scottish Labour MPs who will be playing a full part in proceedings.
Angus Robertson: Will the hon. Lady give the Committee a sneak preview and explain to Members on both sides of the Committee whether she will be voting in favour of the Scottish Labour party adopting a policy of devolving APD, and will she be joining the SNP in the Lobby later?
Cathy Jamieson: I will not be joining the SNP in the Lobby, and I will explain why shortly. I will first take this opportunity to remind hon. Members who have chosen to portray in a slightly different way the consultation exercise that the Scottish Labour party conducted that there is going to be a consultation process. I suppose it would be too much to hope that the SNP will contribute constructively to that process. I am sure that we will continue to have interesting debates and discussions.
Let me deal with the arguments relating to new clause 3 and new schedule 1. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who speaks with some authority on these matters, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) have made clear the limitations of the new clause and the new schedule proposed today. They would not address all the issues on APD, which have been well rehearsed in a number of debates on the Floor of the House. In the Back-Bench business debate held in November last year, hon. Members on both sides of the House raised real concerns about how APD was operating. There was a suggestion that the Government should produce a report, a point I will return to later.
Phil Wilson: We should set aside the selfish approach shown today by the SNP, because APD is an issue not just for Scotland and Northern Ireland, but for many UK regions, including the north-east of England. Durham Tees Valley airport, in my constituency, is under capacity. One way to ensure that we fill such airports to capacity is to have a regional variation in APD. Would that approach not satisfy the whole UK and not just Scotland?
5 pm
Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend makes an important and interesting point. In that debate in November, a number of hon. Members from different parts of the UK acknowledged that there were concerns and there needed to be a fresh look at the issue of APD, not only to tackle congestion in the south-east, but to recognise some of the representations made not only by Scottish and Welsh airports, but by those in the north-east—specifically, Newcastle and Manchester airports.
At that stage, the general view of those representations was that the issue did not affect only Scotland and Wales; it affected the wider UK. Air passenger duty puts a significant amount of funding into the Treasury so it is important to consider the issue in the round. A number of airlines as well as airports have made representations and different business and tourism concerns have been raised.
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The issue of the perceived anomalies around the Caribbean destinations was raised as something that ought to be investigated further. The Caribbean Council has raised a number of issues; I believe that it has made direct representations to the Minister, as have some of my Labour colleagues, I understand, in the hope that something could be done.
I am also aware of the “A Fair Tax on Flying” campaign, as part of which more than 200,000 e-mails were sent. Many MPs received hundreds of e-mails during that time from constituents concerned about the issue.
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Obviously, my hon. Friend will know that there were special circumstances for Northern Ireland; the Northern Ireland Committee, of which I am a member, made that clear. Does she not accept that the United Kingdom has the highest air passenger duty of any part of Europe and that we should be moving towards taking the duty completely away? In the meantime, does she not feel that devolving the matter to Wales and Scotland might be a way forward?
Cathy Jamieson: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I know how much of an interest she has taken in the issue. My concern is to look at the matter sensibly in the round. The problem is that, if the amendments were implemented, we would once again have a piecemeal arrangement in which something might happen for Scotland and Wales, but nothing would happen across the wider UK.
As SNP Members reminded us, we are a United Kingdom and we want to ensure that we have the benefits of the United Kingdom and continue to do so. The comments from the SNP suggesting that somehow the 2014 referendum was a done deal and that Scotland would be independent are far from the reality on the ground when we speak to the people of Scotland. Without wishing to open up earlier debates, I should say that I have absolutely no difficulty in arguing for a strong United Kingdom. That does not mean that I would support everything that the Government would do, as some suggested. I am sure that the Minister and others know that that is far from being the case.
Mr Llwyd: How closely has the hon. Lady monitored the views of Welsh Members on this issue? The right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), the former Secretary of State for Wales, said:
“Given the Secretary of State’s admission that this measure could be included in a Finance Bill, it could be in the Finance Bill”—
“in a few months’ time. Then we could get on with it.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 23 January 2013; c. 30.]
The shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), said:
“Why on earth are we waiting and not pressing ahead? The people of Wales need growth in the economy.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 23 January 2013; c. 17.]
Cathy Jamieson:
The right hon. Gentleman asks how closely I have been monitoring the situation. I have not only been doing that; I have had discussions with a number of Members, including those from Wales. My hon. Friends from Wales, and from Scotland, appear to
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be able to distinguish between what has been put on today’s Order Paper as a political fix or stunt in order to grandstand and make some wider arguments, and having a sensible debate about the real issues, which is entirely different.
Jonathan Edwards: On a point of order, Mr Evans. Since when has an amendment agreed by the Clerks of this House been a political stunt? This is what the Labour party is saying in the media. It is a disgrace and it brings dishonour on this Chamber. [Interruption.]
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Everything that is being debated today is in order; otherwise it would not have been selected. It sounds to me like part of the current debate.
Cathy Jamieson: Thank you, Mr Evans.
I have no concern about whether what is on the Order Paper is in order; of course, if the Clerks have accepted it, it is indeed in order. I recall some of the Members who are bickering and heckling from the Back Benches making similar remarks about perfectly legitimate amendments that Labour Members have tabled in the past, and perhaps making similar suggestions. I am criticising not what is on the Order Paper but the fact that hon. Members apparently wish to widen this debate to the whole question of breaking off certain parts of the United Kingdom instead of focusing on the specific issue.
This is a very serious matter, as was highlighted during the Back-Bench debate that we had back in November. At that time, we as a House came to an agreement that the issue should be looked at in more detail. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what action has been taken. Prior to the election, the Conservatives gave a commitment to look at the per-plane duty. The resulting report was not taken forward for very good reasons; certainly, the industry did not support it. Following all the representations that have been made and the Back-Bench debate that took place, is the Minister now in a position to respond to some of the issues that have been raised today and to say whether a further report is necessary?
Pete Wishart: We do not have a clue what the Liberal position on APD is, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) does not have a clue himself. We have the “jam tomorrow” commission looking at this, but what is the view of the hon. Lady and the Labour party on APD?
Cathy Jamieson: Our view is that we will not support the new clause because we do not believe it is the correct way forward. The Labour party’s position, as already outlined by the leader of the Scottish Labour party, is to put forward some points for consultation. That is the right and proper thing to do. It is of course for the Liberal Democrats to answer for themselves rather than for Labour to do it for them.
Mr Reid:
Let me put it on record that I will not support the new clause because, as I said, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) did
18 Apr 2013 : Column 600
not make the case for it. There has been no proper impact assessment. There are mechanisms by which the case could be made, but SNP Members have not done so today.
Cathy Jamieson: I thank the hon. Gentleman. He has put his position firmly on the record in exactly the way I would anticipate, because I know from the work that he has done on the Scottish Affairs Committee and elsewhere that he takes this issue extremely seriously and is not slow to make points that are often not entirely in line with his Government colleagues if he feels that that is the right thing to do. His comments are very important.
I want to finish by probing the Minister further to see where the Government intend to go with this. Although representations have been made, the Government have not committed to anything other than looking at the rates for this year and the year ahead. It is unclear whether they intend to address any anomalies and conduct further work—perhaps building on various independent reports and the work of the Transport Committee—in order to consider the issue in more detail.
Those who tabled the amendments will not be surprised to hear—I suspect they expected me to say this—that we will not support them. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about how we might usefully take this issue forward, not just for the benefit of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which are very important, but for the benefit of the various regions and areas of England where hon. Members are making a case on behalf of their constituents.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in this energetic debate, which has aroused strong passions in some parties.
Clause 183 sets the air passenger duty rates for 2013-14. These rates were first announced at Budget 2012 and took effect from 1 April 2013. The rates have increased by inflation only. Because of rounding, band A has remained the same, so about 80% of passengers have seen no cash-terms increase in the rates they pay.
Clause 184 gives Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs the power to require payments on account in relation to the APD annual accounting scheme, which was introduced to minimise administrative burdens for the extension of APD to business jets and will improve the fairness of the tax overall. The clause also updates the list of territories in band B of APD to include the new nation of South Sudan.
It is important to recognise the need for the aviation sector to make a fair contribution to the public finances. I remind hon. Members that no tax is levied on the fuel used in international and almost all domestic flights. Moreover, no VAT is levied on international flights and, unlike many other countries, the UK does not charge VAT on domestic flights.
It was in recognition of the fact that aviation was under-taxed compared with other sectors of the economy that APD was first introduced in 1994. It was introduced purely as a revenue-raising tax and it remains a vital revenue-raiser today. However, despite the challenge of the budget deficit that we inherited, this Government have limited increases in APD to inflation only in the period since 2010-11. During this period, rates have increased by only £1 for the vast majority of passengers.
18 Apr 2013 : Column 601
Furthermore, recognising the sector’s need to plan ahead, we have provided greater clarity on future rates. Budget 2013 set out that the rates for 2014 and 2015 will rise in line with inflation only. The real burden of APD will remain unchanged for a further year.
Phil Wilson: On the effect of APD on regional airports such as Durham Tees Valley airport in my constituency and Newcastle airport a few miles from the Scottish border, will the Government consider regional APD variations that might incentivise airliners to fly from airports other than Heathrow and Gatwick?
Sajid Javid: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Government have looked at that in the past and have ruled it out thus far, because the evidence shows that it would lead to significant distortions in the UK market. He will also know, however, that we keep all taxes and duties under review to see whether improvements can be made.
Before I move on to the proposed devolution of taxes, I want to touch on the extension of APD to business jets. A new higher rate has been introduced for passengers travelling on planes offering an enhanced level of comfort. APD on these flights is double the prevailing standard rates for business and first class. These changes improve the fairness of the tax overall.
New clause 3 proposes devolving to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly the power to set APD rates on direct long-haul flights from Scotland and Wales. New clause 4 and new schedule 1 also propose cutting the rates for direct long-haul flights from Wales to the short-haul rate in advance of devolution from 1 April 2013. The issue of APD devolution is a complex one. As we have heard, it was considered in the 2011 consultation and has been debated several times since then, including here today.
5.15 pm
One of the questions raised is, “Why have the Government devolved elements of APD to Northern Ireland, but not to Scotland and Wales?” The Finance Act 2012 devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly the power to set rates on direct long-haul flights. The rate on short-haul flights remains the same as for those from the rest of the UK. The decision to devolve direct long-haul rates to Northern Ireland was a reflection of the unique challenges faced there. As we heard from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) and my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK to share a land border with another EU member state with a lower rate of aviation tax. The UK Government are committed to devolving tax powers where it is to the benefit of the UK as a whole. This is evident from the devolution to Scotland of the stamp duty land tax and the landfill tax, which amounts to the biggest transfer of fiscal powers from London to Scotland in 300 years.
Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there is a competitive disadvantage from APD only where there is a land border with another country or member state? Is that the position of the UK Government?
Sajid Javid:
The hon. Gentleman knows the answer, but I shall provide it anyway. As he knows and as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll
18 Apr 2013 : Column 602
and Bute, passengers who might go to Belfast have the opportunity to travel to Dublin by car. Clearly, that opportunity does not exist in Scotland.
We are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to consider options for rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, and we are carefully considering the recommendations of the Silk commission in Wales. Any devolution of APD, however, must take into account the broad range of views on this subject. In response to the 2011 consultation on APD, a substantial number of stakeholders raised concerns about devolution complicating the APD system and creating distortions in the markets for flights. This concern was reinforced in a recent report by HMRC suggesting that the devolution of APD could lead to market distortion as a result of passenger redistributions between UK airports, without substantially increasing demand for aviation overall.
In considering whether to devolve APD, hon. Members will surely agree that we must assess the risk of replicating the same problems that Northern Ireland faced from lower aviation taxes in the Republic of Ireland. There is clearly a concern about an immediate cut in APD rates for direct long-haul flights from Wales. The Government therefore believe that the devolution of APD is a subject that requires continued and careful evaluation, if we are to be confident about its potential effects across the country as a whole. In undertaking this evaluation, we should take note of recent data showing that passenger numbers are growing at Scottish airports. Between 2010 and 2011, numbers grew by 5.5% and continued to grow last year as well. In fact, Glasgow airport achieved growth of 4% in 2012, Aberdeen airport recently achieved 24 months of consecutive growth and Edinburgh airport will provide more choice to passengers in 2013 than ever before.
Hywel Williams: Will the Minister tell the House what happened to passenger numbers from Cardiff airport over the same period?
Sajid Javid: I do not have the numbers to hand for Cardiff airport, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer. If he wants me to find out for him, however, I shall write to him with the numbers, if they are available.
Talking about Wales, we are considering the Silk commission’s recommendations, as I have said, but we must also take note of the concerns of Bristol airport, which has expressed deep concerns to me that devolution to Wales would have a significantly detrimental impact on its business. In presenting his amendments, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) referred to the report by the CBI in Wales. However, I have an extract from—I believe—the same report he referred to, which says that
“high mobility between Wales and the UK…is a reason for the rate to remain consistent between the countries.”
Our analysis needs to be based on a full examination of the evidence. We will not be rushed or pushed into making premature judgments. On that basis, I ask hon. Members not to press their new clauses.
Briefly, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) raised the issue of APD rates to the Caribbean. As she rightly said, I recently met a delegation of hon. Members to discuss that important topic. I am the first to accept the valuable contribution that British
18 Apr 2013 : Column 603
people of Caribbean heritage make to our country. I have promised to reflect on the important points raised by that delegation and many others that have brought up the same issue.
We have a plan to cut the deficit and we have already cut it by a third. Our country’s credibility comes from delivering that plan. APD revenues make an important contribution to the public finances and this year’s inflation-rate increase is necessary. The extension of APD to business jets makes the tax fairer overall. I therefore urge that both clauses in this group stand part of the Bill and ask hon. Members kindly to consider withdrawing their proposed new clauses.
Mr MacNeil: I can tell the Minister straight away that we will not be withdrawing our new clauses; we will be pressing them to a vote.
This has been an enjoyable debate. I certainly enjoyed the contribution from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who is not in his place at the moment. [Interruption.] I am told he is on a plane to Inverness. I wonder. I have found an exchange in Hansard between him and me from March this year, when I pointed out to him in an intervention that the UK’s tax
“is reputed to be the world’s most onerous tax on air travel, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is damaging Scottish airports terribly.”
From everything that he said today, we might be under the impression that a certain answer was given, but no. The answer he gave was:
“I do agree with the hon. Gentleman on this occasion; it is not very often I can say that. The Government are doing absolutely nothing for air passengers, the aviation industry and those who work in it. They continue with this tax, while our competitors throughout the world are laughing at us.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 1332.]
I just wish the hon. Gentleman was here now, to come through the Lobby with us and put some meaning into his words.
The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made a very good speech when, as I see it, he described air passenger duty as a win-win situation. I welcome the fact that air passenger duty was devolved to Northern Ireland and I wish those in Northern Ireland well. I hope it succeeds and I hope the economy there grows from strength to strength. The devolution of air passenger duty to Northern Ireland will benefit us all, whether we live in Scotland, England, the Republic of Ireland or Wales. We have nothing to fear, only fear itself. In years to come, when the Northern Ireland economy—hopefully —develops with that, we will see the wisdom of devolving that power and the folly of not devolving it to other parts.
My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) made a very strong speech—a star speech, in fact. He mentioned the Silk commission and Labour’s immediate need to devolve APD—it was the other week, but of course there is no sign of Welsh Labour in this place today. The word “immediate” has a different meaning for Labour Welsh Members from its meaning for the rest of the English-speaking world. The hon. Gentleman certainly gave us a scary update of the economic situation in Wales, where people face the double whammy of Labour in
18 Apr 2013 : Column 604
Cardiff and the Tories in London, with their wee pals in Westminster, the Liberals, giving them a hand. He reminded my colleagues just how fortunate we are to have the SNP Government in Scotland, led by luminaries such as Michael Russell, Kenny MacAskill, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Neil, John Swinney and, of course, Alex Salmond, the First Minister.
The hon. Gentleman reminded us that the Westminster branch of the Labour party does not want to give powers to the Labour Cardiff branch. Clearly, the Labour brothers in Wales are as happy a band as those in Scotland. We wonder whether they will send an ambassador to Inverness this weekend—I doubt it. They are probably having a punch-up, one with the other, in Cardiff.
Talking of punch-ups, that brings me to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), who offered himself to the Chamber as a punch bag and was taken up on that offer. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) repeatedly asked him what his policy was and he repeatedly failed to answer the question. He was even offered the policy free by the SNP, but he would not adopt it, just in case, such was the level of uncertainty. He is a nice fellow but his politics are sadly lacking. The arms are open—if he wants to cross the Floor and join the SNP, he will be welcome. It is his politics he has to change.
The hon. Gentleman said that the SNP had not made the case. Hang about. Any daft case the Conservatives make and the Liberals happily wander through the Lobbies, be it on tuition fees, the bedroom tax—whatever it is, it is yes, yes, yes from the Liberals. He seems to be unable to make the case himself for APD to be devolved to Scotland—that was sadly lacking. Will he vote tonight for clause 183? Will he come through with us on clause 183? Will he vote against the increase or will he vote for it?
Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman was asked a simple question by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe): how many flights will be affected? In the half hour since then, has he managed to find out?
Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has not said whether he is voting with us in the Lobby or voting for an increase in APD. On the fourth time of asking, he is still unable to tell us what the Liberal Democrat position in Scotland is on devolution of APD.
The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) made me pause and think for a while. He wants to bring in differences in the UK, which I welcome, but sadly he carped at the SNP. I think he took the wrong approach there. I would be happy to see economic growth in the north-east of England. I would not feel diminished in any way if the economy of the north-east of England were to improve, and he should not feel diminished either by Scotland advancing. I suggested to the hon. Member for North Antrim earlier that it is a win-win situation. The view of the hon. Member for Sedgefield is that it is a lose-lose situation. I am pleased to say that that view was not shared by the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), who could see the benefit of devolving APD to Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) certainly understands the need to devolve APD, but then argued against it. She said the proposal was piecemeal, but did not want to make a
18 Apr 2013 : Column 605
start on it anywhere. Cannot she see that with or without independence more growth in Scotland benefits us all, as more growth in the Republic of Ireland and France surely benefits us all? We should be moving with a big heart to ensure that that can happen everywhere and not be stifling growth. The hon. Lady is a sensible woman and in her heart of hearts she knows the wisdom of the proposal. Of course she strayed a little far and upset my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, but I am sure that she will reflect that she possibly went too far.
Labour unfortunately is employing again the Bain principle: no matter what the SNP does, no matter how sensible or wise, Labour will not vote for it. If Labour has one other principle, it is the Kilbrandon principle, which it established in 1970, whereby it prefers a Tory Government to independence for Scotland. We have seen that time after time, particularly through the damaging 1980s.
The Minister mentioned inflation, but the Government have decided increase the duty at the highest level possible. I am glad that he is looking at what is happening to our friends in the Commonwealth and in the Caribbean in particular. Disappointingly, he was unable to say whether the duty caused a competitive disadvantage to the UK compared with other countries that we do not share a land border with. I hope that the finest minds in the Treasury can go and research that and perhaps in years to come we will have an answer. For Wales there were no figures.
The upshot of this is that the UK Government are continuing to hamper Scotland. At first, it was a policy of omission, but we can now see that they are clearly hampering Scotland by commission. That is why we must vote for independence in the autumn of 2014.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Committee divided:
Ayes 10, Noes 237.
Division No. 218]
[
5.29 pm
AYES
Edwards, Jonathan
Hosie, Stewart
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Lucas, Caroline
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Paisley, Ian
Robertson, Angus
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Tellers for the Ayes:
Pete Wishart
and
Hywel Williams
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, rh Greg
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Glyn
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, rh Damian
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harris, Rebecca
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lloyd, Stephen
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Maude, rh Mr Francis
Maynard, Paul
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mordaunt, Penny
Morris, Anne Marie
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pincher, Christopher
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robertson, rh Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Nicky Morgan
and
Mark Hunter
Question accordingly negatived.
18 Apr 2013 : Column 606
18 Apr 2013 : Column 607
Air passenger duty: Wales
‘Schedule (Air Passenger Duty: Wales) has effect’.—(Jonathan Edwards.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
The Committee divided:
Ayes 11, Noes 233.
Division No. 219]
[
5.40 pm
AYES
Edwards, Jonathan
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Paisley, Ian
Robertson, Angus
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr Mark
Wishart, Pete
Tellers for the Ayes:
Stewart Hosie
and
Caroline Lucas
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, rh Greg
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Glyn
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, rh Damian
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harris, Rebecca
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lancaster, Mark
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lloyd, Stephen
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Maude, rh Mr Francis
Maynard, Paul
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mordaunt, Penny
Morris, Anne Marie
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pincher, Christopher
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robertson, rh Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr Robert
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Mark Hunter
and
Nicky Morgan
Question accordingly negatived.
18 Apr 2013 : Column 608
18 Apr 2013 : Column 609
Air passenger duty: rates of duty from 1 April 2013
Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Committee divided:
Ayes 237, Noes 9.
Division No. 220]
[
5.51 pm
AYES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Blackman, Bob
Blunt, Mr Crispin
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brake, rh Tom
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Byles, Dan
Cairns, Alun
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Cash, Mr William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Glyn
de Bois, Nick
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Mr Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mark
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, rh Damian
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Matthew
Hands, Greg
Harris, Rebecca
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Javid, Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Mr Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lansley, rh Mr Andrew
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Leigh, Mr Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Maynard, Paul
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McVey, Esther
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Patrick
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pincher, Christopher
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Mr John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robertson, rh Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Miss Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Syms, Mr Robert
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Truss, Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, Steve
Wharton, James
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mark Lancaster
and
Mark Hunter
NOES
Hosie, Stewart
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Paisley, Ian
Robertson, Angus
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Wishart, Pete
Tellers for the Noes:
Hywel Williams
and
Jonathan Edwards
Question accordingly agreed to.
18 Apr 2013 : Column 610
18 Apr 2013 : Column 611
6.2 pm
More than six hours having elapsed since the commencement of proceedings, the proceedings were interrupted (Programme Order, 15 April).
The Chair put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of business at that time (Standing Order No. 83D).
Clause 184 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill (Clauses 1, 3, 16, 183, 184 and 200 to 212 and Schedules 3 and 41) reported, without amendment (Standing Order No. 83D(6), and ordered to lie on the Table.
18 Apr 2013 : Column 612
Obstetric and Paediatric Services (East Sussex)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.)
6.3 pm
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Let me begin by thanking Mr. Speaker for allowing the debate, and by welcoming the Minister.
Unfortunately, it is an extremely challenging situation for my constituency that brings me here today: the imminent downgrading of the obstetrics and maternity department and the ending of in-patient paediatric services at my local hospital, Eastbourne district general hospital, which is managed by East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust.
ESHT, as I will now call it, attempted to downgrade maternity services once before, in 2007, but East Sussex county council’s health overview and scrutiny committee, or HOSC, had severe reservations and duly referred the plans to the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who referred the proposals to the independent reconfiguration panel, or IRP.
As the Minister will be all too aware, the IRP is the independent expert on NHS service change and advises the Secretary of State for Health on contested reconfiguration proposals in England. In 2008, it finally published its recommendations, which were that consultant-led maternity, special care baby, in-patient gynaecology and related services must be retained on both sites—at Eastbourne district general hospital and Conquest hospital at Hastings.
The IRP felt that the trust did not make a clear case for safer and more sustainable services for the people of East Sussex and specifically that the proposals reduced accessibility compared with current service provision and that the journey from the DGH to the Conquest hospital posed a risk of incidents for women, especially during unexpected transfers.
Despite clear guidance from the IRP on how the hospital trust must remedy the problem, four years later a report from the national clinical advisory team, or NCAT, has deemed maternity services in East Sussex unsafe. That has given ESHT the opportunity to downgrade Eastbourne’s maternity from a consultant-led department to a midwife-led department almost immediately and, because safety is involved, without consultation. The trust managers have achieved exactly what they failed to achieve all those years ago. Is that a coincidence? I think not.
Let me be clear that I do not contest the findings of that report. How can I? I am not a clinician. However, I am extremely angry that we have found ourselves back where we were, with my hospital losing its consultant-led maternity services. We are back to the point at which we fought and won all those years ago, only now it seems it was a pyrrhic victory and that in fact we have lost. Eastbourne is to forgo its consultant-led maternity after all. Frankly, I think that is outrageous—absolutely outrageous.
Eastbourne is the fastest growing town in East Sussex. Our fastest growing demographic is 25 to 45, the age at which most people have children. The road connections
18 Apr 2013 : Column 613
between Eastbourne DGH and the Conquest hospital in Hastings are appalling—that was highlighted by the IRP report five years ago and they are still dreadful.
Where does the responsibility for that grotesque shambles lie? In the opinion of the cross-party “Save the DGH” campaign team, of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker)—I am delighted to welcome his support today and although I know he cannot speak in the debate, I appreciate his presence in the Chamber—and of many tens of thousands of people across Eastbourne and the surrounding area, as well as in my opinion, the responsibility lies squarely with the current leadership of the trust and, specifically, at the feet of the chief executive, Mr Grayson, and the chairman, Mr Welling.
It has been made clear to me by many employees of the trust over a number of years that the trust was determined to push through these downgrades, regardless of the recommendations of the IRP. That was obvious for all to see when the chief executive, Mr Grayson, who, when he was asked about the reconfiguration at a HOSC meeting only last month, stated:
“I think it is fair to say the health and social care system in East Sussex failed women and babies in East Sussex when it failed to deliver a change to services in 2008 which, I feel, would have made them safer…we could have done something safer in 2007/08...we need to keep that at the front of our minds as we move into the next period.”
These words do not sound like a senior manager dedicated to implementing a solution that the IRP said was not only sustainable, had the recommendations been properly followed, but in the best interests of the safety of local mums and babies. Or does the Minister disagree with my proposition?
Let me move to the current proposals. The main incidents that led to the safety issues, according to the NCAT report, were problems related to staffing. For instance, emergency measures were required in September 2012 owing to the vacancies for middle-grade doctors and the absence of two consultants, as well as midwifery absences running at about 13%. However, on drilling down into the data, I discovered that the absence of one of the two consultants was due to retirement, and approximately half the midwifery absences were due to maternity leave, all of which, obviously, would have been known in advance. Importantly, other than that, the turnover of midwives was reported as low. This clearly shows an acute lack of planning and poor senior leadership. Staff pregnancy is not a secret, and retirement tends, in my experience, to have a pretty clear lead-in period.
I have brought up these very concerns and others with the Care Quality Commission, having met one of its directors only this week in Westminster. I can safely say that the CQC will in future pay even closer attention to the trust and in particular to the district general hospital.
It is with regret that I also have to tell the House that I have not been hugely impressed with the Department of Health over the issue of my local hospital. The Department has been slow to reply to my letters on what are, naturally, incredibly important concerns to my constituents. For instance, I wrote to the Secretary of State twice on 15 March when the shock news about consultant-led maternity services being switched to Conquest was announced. That will be five weeks ago tomorrow, and I have yet to receive a reply.
18 Apr 2013 : Column 614
This is not the first time I have taken issue with the Department. Immediately before the maternity and paediatric downgrade, the hospital trust also removed emergency orthopaedics and emergency and highest risk elective general surgery from Eastbourne district general hospital. I and colleagues from the Save the DGH team were eventually able to meet the Secretary of State. We made it clear to him that the proposals to remove orthopaedics and general surgery from Eastbourne DGH did not meet all the Government’s four reconfiguration tests. I showed him the meeting papers which clearly state that our local GP commissioners did not support the move. The Minister then agreed to write to NHS South of England to investigate this further, and I received a reply from the Secretary of State a month later, in which he states:
“NHS South of England . . . is satisfied the proposals to reconfigure health services in East Sussex meet the requirements under the four tests.”
In the view of Eastbourne, Hailsham and Seaford clinical commissioning group, emergency general surgery and emergency orthopaedics should be sited at Eastbourne DGH, so clearly those two views contradict each other. I find that extraordinary.
Added to this, we conducted surveys of local GPs and consultants which showed that more than 90% of DGH consultants and 42 local GPs were opposed to the plans, and more than 36,000 people signed a petition against the proposals in only 18 days, which gives a strong indication of the strength of local feeling.
Alarmingly, the Secretary of State also informed me at our meeting that the issue had not even come on to his radar, despite his office confirming some weeks previously that it had received 5,506 letters in three months from people in Eastbourne and the surrounding area. These were individually enveloped letters, yet the Secretary of State was not made aware of them or of the issue. I find that extraordinary.
That brings me to my next key point. I would like to know who in the management structure of the health service or at the Department, both now and prior to the recent changes, is responsible for ensuring that trusts properly implement IRP recommendations, as it is clear in my view and that of others that the trust never sincerely implemented the series of recommendations made by the IRP, which were to maintain two sustainable and consultant-led maternity units. This obvious lack of commitment properly to implement the IRP recommendations was made crystal clear, as I said earlier in my speech, by the trust’s chief executive, Mr Grayson, when he gave evidence to HOSC only last month.
Consequently, I would like the Minister to arrange for me and the cross-party Save the DGH campaign team, which is ably led by the tenacious campaigner for our local hospital, Liz Walke, to meet his officials because we need to establish clear lines of communication with the Department. The people of Eastbourne are being failed, and to address that we need to ensure co-operation at the highest level.
Let me explain how the people of Eastbourne are being failed and what those failings will mean for local mums and babies. First, the proposed changes mean Eastbourne will be the largest discrete town in the UK without essential core services. Secondly, Eastbourne will have the worst population access factor in the UK. The PAF has been validated as a measure of the access
18 Apr 2013 : Column 615
to nearest facilities according to the size of population—as I am sure the Minister knows, it is the distance in miles multiplied by the population in thousands.
Thirdly, the NCAT report confirmed that 36% of first-time mothers and 20% of mothers having a second or subsequent baby are referred to a doctor during their pregnancy. Although I accept that expectant mothers will be screened and those found to be at increased risk will be directed to have their babies at a consultant-led unit in Hastings or Brighton, the original IRP report concluded that the risk to mothers was unquantifiable, and the very nature of birth means that there will be examples of mothers who have been screened with no problems detected going on to experience complications. With around 2,000 births in Eastbourne last year, that is an awful lot of pregnant mothers having to be shipped, by blue-light services, across to Conquest hospital.
The South East Coast ambulance service, which gives an outstanding service, gave a range of travel times between 23 and 52 minutes. However, the total transfer time from Eastbourne’s freestanding midwifery-led unit to Hastings consultant obstetric unit is over 60 minutes, and one study showed averages of 90 minutes. The Minister will know that the total transfer time is the important one, rather than the blue-light travel time. It is the total time from the decision to transfer from the FMU to arrival in the receiving bed at the obstetrics unit, incorporating the time for the ambulance to arrive, park, load, travel and unload. Most importantly, it is the total “down time” during which a patient with an obstetric problem will not have access to skilled medical obstetric assistance.
Fourthly, even the NHS pregnancy book advises:
“You should also be aware that if something goes seriously wrong during your labour… it could be worse for you and your baby than if you were in hospital with access to specialised care.”
Let me give the Minister a scenario. A mother in her third pregnancy, which has been uncomplicated, arrives at the midwifery-led unit in Eastbourne, where she had planned to deliver. On arrival, she is found to be in early labour, her blood pressure is low and the baby’s heart rate is slow. The patient is transferred urgently by ambulance 20 miles east to the consultant-led unit at Hastings for delivery. We should remember that the average total transfer time from when that decision is taken to arrival is upwards of 90 minutes.
The baby is born in a frail condition and needs to be resuscitated by neonatal paediatric staff and helped to breathe on a ventilator. The baby will then need to be retrieved by the neonatal transfer team to the neonatal intensive care unit in Brighton, which is more than 30 miles to the west, bypassing the DGH. The mother will also require transfer to the post-natal unit in Brighton in order to be with her baby, and what about her family, husband or partner and the other children and grandparents? I look forward to the Minister telling me how that can possibly offer the mother or the baby a better or safer service.
I find this situation absolutely foolhardy and almost beyond belief. Eastbourne is a growing town that pulls together. We have rolled up our sleeves in the teeth of the financial economic downturn and we are bucking the economic trend: unemployment is down from this time last year, our town centre has secured a £70 million
18 Apr 2013 : Column 616
private regeneration investment and we have some of the best performing schools in Sussex. Simply put, Eastbourne is a wonderful place to live and bring up a family, yet—this beggars belief—it seems that our hospital is being salami-sliced, with downgrade after downgrade. It is just plain wrong. I urge the Minister to intervene before it is too late.
It is not only the downgrade of our maternity services that angers me; there is also the decision to close in-patient paediatrics at the DGH. By bundling everything under the “safety” umbrella, the trust has been able to bypass due process on the basis that NCAT recommends that maternity and paediatric services be co-located. In fact, horrifyingly, the NCAT report also states that all core services should be co-located on one site. Will the trust be able to bypass everything in future and downgrade the entire DGH to a cottage hospital at NCAT’s say so? It is absolutely absurd.
Lastly, I have issues about whether staff really can go public with their concerns; frankly, under the current regime they fear for their jobs. I have been contacted by staff from all the different levels in the hospital. All are courageously keeping me informed but, equally, they are profoundly fearful about going public. That puts me, their elected representative, in a very difficult position. I will not breach their confidentiality without permission and they do not give their identities for fear of the consequences, but the trust management is then able to pooh-pooh my concerns and public statements as not being based on fact. In fact, the contract of one of my NHS constituents states:
“If he or she discusses items under consideration by the Trust that he or she becomes aware of with ‘unauthorised persons’, this will result in disciplinary action which may involve dismissal”.
Minister, that not only prevents staff members from bringing their concerns to their democratically elected Member of Parliament, whom the trust determines to be an “unauthorised person”, but they are not even supposed to discuss concerns with their colleagues. Surely to God the Minister agrees that the position is completely unacceptable!
The Secretary of State said recently, and very publicly, that a culture of “openness and transparency” will be at the heart of trying to drive up NHS standards, by encouraging NHS staff to speak up when they have concerns. Well, we do not have a culture of openness and transparency within ESHT and the DGH. That is worrying.
Due to the failings of the local trust and the mismanagement of the situation that has led us to where we are, I, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), whose constituents are also served by the hospital, have called for the resignation of the chief executive, Mr Grayson, and the chair, Mr Welling. Again, and in Parliament, I reiterate that call and ask that they step down in the interests of the people of Eastbourne and the surrounding area, so that they can be replaced with a more capable leadership team. The issue does not affect only Eastbourne, but the surrounding area. Last Saturday there was a march in Seaford, which is in my hon. Friend’s constituency. It was supported, across parties, by many local residents.
I also take this opportunity to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), who cannot be here today as he is elsewhere representing the Prime Minister as his trade envoy. His constituents are equally
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served by the DGH. He contacted me to give his express permission to relay to the House that he, too, wants to know how we reached a situation where these services were deemed to be unsafe. He is also keen for the full range of maternity services to be restored to the DGH as soon as possible.
In wrapping up, I take the opportunity to thank two local mums in particular. Selene Edwards and Amelia West, alongside the Save the DGH campaign group, are working hard to protect local services and in a matter of weeks have both set up Facebook groups with over 8,500 members between them. Such community involvement is bringing the town together to fight the changes.
I shall now conclude. The Minister is, of course, free to address any of the points I have raised, but I am particularly keen for her to address four key points. First, how have maternity services at the DGH been allowed to get to the current “unsafe” position despite the 2008 IRP recommendations being utterly emphatic that consultant-led maternity must remain on both sites? Secondly, were the 2008 IRP recommendations ever properly implemented by ESHT? My constituents and I have lost so much trust as a result of this sorry episode that we would insist, reasonably, that the whole process should be independently audited by medical experts. Was the 2008 IRP-recommended report ever properly implemented?
Thirdly, how do the chief executive and chair of the trust still remain in post when they have presided over this debacle? Finally, I would like to request a meeting with the relevant senior Department of Health officials, so that clear lines of communication can be established with the Department to fix the problem for my local hospital before it is too late.
6.24 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) on securing this debate. Given that no doubt many people in his constituency will, I hope, read all my speech and all the comments I make, it is very important that I make a number of matters very clear. As I am confident that he knows extremely well, this decision does not lie with the Department of Health. When he asks me a series of questions, which of course I am more than happy to answer, he must know, and those reading or listening to this speech must know, that these decisions are local decisions.
The coalition Government have taken the view that it is only right and proper that decisions of this nature regarding the provision of NHS services are made locally. My hon. Friend, quite properly, comes to this place to raise these matters on behalf of his constituents. I make no complaint at all about any Member of this place doing that, because, in many ways, it is our primary job. However, it is also absolutely imperative that when hon. Members, like my hon. Friend, come here and put forward a complaint on their constituents’ behalf, it is made clear where the decision-making process lies and where the responsibility lies—and it lies at a local level. That is why, in replying to his speech, I rely on information provided to me not by my officials in the Department, because they are not party to this decision, but by the various trusts, knowing the processes and understanding that this, as he must know, is a local matter.
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I am told that the trust has been experiencing challenges in recruiting doctors for the specialties associated with obstetric and paediatric services. This has been followed by advice the trust has recently received from local clinicians and the national clinical advisory team. That advice, I am told, indicates that the trust’s current maternity and paediatric services cannot continue as they are. I am told that the current arrangements are unsustainable in terms of delivering a safe service to patients. I am sure that my hon. Friend has at heart a desire to ensure that all his constituents receive safe treatments and the safe delivery of their babies. That must be his, and indeed everybody’s, priority.
I am told that it is because of those factors—the shortage in recruitment and the safety of patients—that the trust has had to take urgent action, primarily on the grounds of patient safety. As my hon. Friend knows, the trust met in March and made a temporary decision—this is not a permanent decision.
Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way?
Anna Soubry: In one moment, if I may, because the clock is against me and it is really important that I place on the record a proper and full response to my hon. Friend’s speech.
I am told that this is a temporary measure whereby the consultant-led obstetric service, neonatal services, including a special care baby unit, and in-patient paediatric and emergency gynaecology services will, in order to make sure that they are safe, be provided by Conquest hospital alone.
Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way on that particular issue?
Stephen Lloyd: I appreciate that. The Minister will be interested to know that I went to an extraordinary general meeting where the chair said that the measure would be temporary. I got a commitment that it would last for 18 months. I then publicised that and three days later I got a clarifying letter saying, “No, Mr Lloyd, we are saying that in 18 months we will consult on whether it is temporary.” I do not believe that it is temporary, and having the Minister support the idea that it will be temporary means that it is more likely to stay as such.
Anna Soubry: I get the point, but it is not a question of me supporting or believing in anything. I have been given information and am placing it before the House to ensure that the good people whom my hon. Friend represents have the full picture. It would be a serious allegation to suggest that the information with which I have been provided is false. I can say only what I have been told, which is that it is a temporary decision.
That is combined with the establishment of a stand-alone, midwifery-led maternity unit, alongside a short-stay paediatric assessment unit at Eastbourne district general hospital. This means that if a paediatric patient requires in-patient admission, they will be transferred to Hastings under the interim change.
As yet, no woman or child has been transferred to Conquest hospital. I understand that the project plans are in place for the delivery of the interim configuration of maternity and paediatric services, providing a single-site service at the Conquest hospital from 7 May.
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My hon. Friend is fully aware that the trust has confirmed, as I have said, that this is a temporary change and, indeed, that a strategic and long-term solution will need to be agreed within 18 months. It is also important to remind hon. Members that I am told that the process will be led by local general practitioners and what we now call local clinical commissioning groups.
I am conscious that the clock is against me, but there is much I wish to say. I press on my hon. Friend that, as I have said, there are no specific proposals at the moment. I am informed that in order to develop a solution, the future of maternity and paediatric services is being considered as part of a separate, countywide programme called Sussex Together, which will bring together doctors, nurses and health professionals, in conjunction with local authority colleagues from across the county, so there is a real opportunity to improve health services and outcomes across organisational boundaries.
I will, of course, write to my hon. Friend to try to answer all his questions. I wish I had been given notice of them, because I could have answered them today, but I am precluded from doing so. At the moment there is no point in my meeting any of his good constituents who are leading the campaign, because there is nothing that we in the Department can do. As I have said, this is a local decision and it is temporary.
Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way on that point?
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Anna Soubry: No, I am afraid that I cannot take any more interventions, because I am keen to place the following on the record. The trust’s latest decision has been taken on urgent safety grounds as a temporary solution, and CCGs—clinicians, doctors and nurses—hope to and will find the long-term solution to the problem. In arriving at that solution, CCGs will want to assess proposals against the four tests that have already been outlined. Adhering to those tests and continuing to focus on the needs of the local population will ensure that proposed changes to services are locally led, not Government-driven or directed by Whitehall.
We hope that everyone will work together, including the local authority’s health and wellbeing board. Moreover, the health overview and scrutiny committee is a very important organisation that can refer proposals to the Secretary of State. It comprises democratically elected members and professionals, all of whom can ensure that the right thing is done.
Stephen Lloyd: Will the Minister give way?
Anna Soubry: No, I only have 10 seconds left. The committee has the power to refer proposals for changes to services to the Secretary of State—
6.33 pm
House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).