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House of Commons

Wednesday 24 April 2013

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock


[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

business before questions

Humber Bridge Bill

Bill, as amended, considered.

Oral Answers to Questions

Scotland Office

The Secretary of State was asked—

David Livingstone: Anniversary

1. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): What steps his Department has taken to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the birth of David Livingstone. [150798]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): The Scotland Office is working closely with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and the David Livingstone 200 partnership on the programme of celebrations to mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of Dr David Livingstone. On 19 March, the Scotland Office hosted a reception at Dover House following the commemorative service at Westminster Abbey in the presence of President Joyce Banda of Malawi.

Mrs Laing: I am sure the whole House will be pleased to hear what the Scotland Office is doing. It is fitting, especially to those of us who well remember childhood trips to Blantyre, the birthplace of David Livingstone, that tribute should be paid to him here in Parliament. Does my right hon. Friend agree that although a minority of Scots want to put artificial barriers around Scotland, the vast majority of Scots believe in the pioneering, enterprising spirit of David Livingstone, and want Scotland to play its full part in the United Kingdom, and indeed in the world in general?

David Mundell: I could not agree more. David Livingstone was both a great Scot and a great Briton, who had an outward, progressive-looking attitude to the world, which exemplifies why Scotland and Britain are better together.

Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): I place on record my thanks to the Scotland Office and the Foreign Office for ensuring that President Joyce Banda was able to visit Scotland, particularly Blantyre in my constituency, to mark the start of the celebrations. May I draw the attention of the Minister and the House to the wide range of events happening through the year, and encourage as many

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people as possible to come to Blantyre in my constituency and visit the centre there and take part in the celebrations?

David Mundell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for noting the work the UK Government, and indeed the Scottish Government, have done on the matter. He, too, is to be commended for the part he has played in promoting the David Livingstone bicentenary. He is correct: there are a number of continuing events, and all those who wish to do so should take the opportunity to take part in them.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I very much welcome the various celebrations that the Minister has announced today. Does he agree that there could be no finer commemoration of that magnificent missionary, scientist, statesman and explorer than his gravestone in Westminster Abbey? It does not list any honours, or even his dates of birth and death or his parenthood; on a piece of Scottish granite, it simply says the magnificent words “David Livingstone.”

David Mundell: Indeed, that is a poignant memorial to Dr Livingstone. It was particularly memorable to see members of his family laying a wreath on the gravestone, along with President Banda, at the commemorative service.

Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I presume that Dr Livingstone was a great educationalist, who believed in education. What has the Minister’s right hon. Friend the Secretary of State done to set up the school-industry liaison committees that he promised me some months ago?

Mr Speaker: Order. That is very tangentially related to the 200th anniversary of the birth of David Livingstone. The hon. Gentleman should not speculate about what Dr Livingstone would have said, because the fact is that he did not—he was not in a position to do so and he cannot do so now. I think we had better move on. I call Iain Stewart.

Caledonian Sleeper Train

2. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the future of the Caledonian sleeper train. [150799]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): The UK Government provided £50 million to safeguard and improve the Caledonian sleeper service in 2011. Responsibility for taking the project forward is now with the Scottish Government. We look forward finally to seeing some progress.

Iain Stewart: I am pleased that the Government have invested in the future of the Caledonian sleeper, which is a vital transport link for business and tourism alike, but does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment that the Scottish Government have not shown the same urgency on upgrading that vital link?

David Mundell: I agree with my hon. Friend. He might be aware that, since the spending review, the Scottish Government have received over £1 billion in additional funding for what they said were shovel-ready projects, but the only shovelling of which they seem capable is digging the sort of hole that we saw yesterday regarding the currency.

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Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): The Scottish National party Government have in fact invested £130 million in the sleeper service—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) wants to be quiet, he can be. The SNP Government understand the importance of linking mega-regions, which has been identified by Professor Richard Florida as a win-win for all concerned. In Spain, the linking of Seville to Madrid has benefited not only Seville as intended, but Madrid far more. With the sleeper service maintained to Inverness and Fort William, when will the UK Government ensure that there are high-speed links and landing slots at Heathrow to maintain full connectivity between mega-regions, because we want England, in particular, to keep pace with Scottish prosperity post independence?

David Mundell: The Government are committed to ensuring that there is connectivity within the United Kingdom, just as they are committed to ensuring that we stay a United Kingdom.

Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Has my right hon. Friend considered that the sleeper service might be better served if there were electrification of the east coast main line between Edinburgh and Aberdeen? Coincidentally, that passes through my constituency, and the project would provide a better service for the stations of Ladybank, Cupar and Leuchars.

David Mundell: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is rightly always keen to promote his constituency interests, but he will be aware that that was one of the many projects that the Scottish National party said in opposition it would deliver—yet it does not seem to be on the agenda any more.

Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): Does the Minister accept that the Caledonian sleeper is a vital link between the Ministry of Defence in London and the shipyards on the Clyde? Does he accept that trade on the Caledonian sleeper will drastically reduce in the event that we have separation and the Clyde shipyards close?

David Mundell: What I accept is that if we were to have separation, there would be a great deal of uncertainty, and not just for the operators of the Caledonian sleeper service. As we saw yesterday, for example, those promoting independence have no idea what currency would be used in an independent Scotland, which will be a significant factor in creating additional uncertainty.

Ryder Cup

3. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the organisers of the Ryder cup in Scotland regarding their voluntary charging policy. [150800]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): I am very pleased that the Ryder cup is coming to Scotland in 2014. We will work with the Scottish Government and the organisers to make it a success.

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Jim Sheridan: I thank the Minister for that response. Does he agree that having to pay to volunteer is a contradiction in terms, and that that debars many people from participating in a sport such as golf? Will he make further representations to the Ryder cup’s organisers that they should follow the lead of Glasgow city council by creating genuine volunteers?

David Mundell: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, which I will take forward with EventScotland and Shona Robison, the Scottish Government Minister with responsibility for the Ryder cup.

Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): The Ryder cup is a unique golf tournament, because the competitors compete not for cash prizes but for the pride of representing their country or continent, so it is perverse that volunteers will be asked to pay to deliver their services. Will the Minister add that point to his representations when he meets the event’s organisers?

David Mundell: I will certainly be happy to add the hon. Gentleman’s concerns to those expressed by the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan).

Welfare Reform

4. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the Government's welfare benefit reforms in Scotland. [150801]

5. Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): When he last met the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to discuss the effects of welfare reform in Scotland. [150802]

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I are in regular contact with ministerial colleagues in the Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions on matters relating to welfare reform in Scotland.

Pete Wishart: We now know that more than 100,000 Scots will be affected by the Government’s bedroom tax, which is opposed by over 90% of Scottish MPs and has appalled civic Scotland. It is opposed in every locality in Scotland and there have been protests in Glasgow. Does the Secretary of State agree that the bedroom tax is quickly becoming his Government’s poll tax?

Michael Moore: No, I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman, as he will not be surprised to hear. My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I have been going around Scotland talking to councils and groups that have an interest in the matter and are concerned about different aspects of implementation, and we will continue to do that. However, people are clear that we want to keep together within the United Kingdom the universal and shared values that created the welfare state and the NHS, rather than for Scotland to become an independent country.

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Fiona O'Donnell: A family in my constituency with children aged two, three, four and five who have been hit by the bedroom tax were yesterday advised by those on the Government Benches in the Finance Bill Committee to take in a lodger. Does the Secretary of State think that was good advice?

Michael Moore: I obviously cannot comment on the constituency details that the hon. Lady has brought to the Floor of the House today or on the full extent of the exchange yesterday. As I said to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) a few moments ago, we need to look carefully at how the measure is implemented. I would be happy to hear further details from the hon. Lady on that case.

13. [150811] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be aware that by far the largest single part of the welfare budget goes on pensions, including the state pension, pension credit and related pensioner benefits. What discussions has he had with the Scottish Government about how pensions would work in a separate Scotland?

Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman raises a hugely important issue which will be one of the big questions that we ask in Scotland as we build up to the referendum next year. The security and the scale of the United Kingdom allows us the solidarity of common provision across the United Kingdom, and we have the means to pay for that, even in difficult economic times, as we have had recently. We have not seen or heard anything from the Scottish National party or their supporters about how they would do that in an independent Scotland.

Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): There is a link between welfare and the use of food banks, and I have raised the topic of food banks a number of times in this place through questions and petitions and directly with the Prime Minister, which have all seemed to go unanswered. The Secretary of State will have seen today’s report from the Trussell Trust revealing that the number of people using food banks in Scotland has increased from fewer than 5,000 last year to more than 14,000 this year. Can he tell the House why he is letting this happen?

Michael Moore: My right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I have met people at food banks, and recently I met the executive chairman of the Trussell Trust. As the chief executive would point out, as I am sure he has to the hon. Gentleman, there is a range of complex reasons going back many years for why people need access to food banks. We continue to look at this very carefully. I do not want people to have to go to food banks to get support. I am happy to continue that dialogue with the hon. Gentleman.

Budget 2013

6. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effect of Budget 2013 on Scotland. [150803]

7. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op): What assessment he has made of the effect of Budget 2013 on Scotland. [150804]

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The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): The Budget will support businesses, create jobs and help households in Scotland. Against a challenging international economic backdrop, the Budget has set out a range of measures to build a stronger economy and a fairer society.

Ann McKechin: Ministers will be aware of a report published today by the Fawcett Society showing that three times as many women as men have suffered long-term unemployment in the past two and a half years. That is hardly surprising given the Budget decisions from which women have suffered the most. Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is tolerable for women to continue to bear the brunt of his Government’s failed economic policies?

Michael Moore: I obviously do not accept the hon. Lady’s analysis, but I commend her for campaigning long and hard on that issue, at which we need to continue to look very hard. In the Budget we have introduced proposals on child care which take us much further than we have gone before. We are focusing on helping low-income families in Scotland by taking more than 200,000 Scots out of tax altogether and reducing the income tax bill for 2 million people in Scotland. We will continue to take a range of measures to make sure that we recover from the awful inheritance of her Government.

Cathy Jamieson: The unemployment figures in Scotland have not been helped by the devastating news of the closure of a number of open-cast coal sites in the area covered by my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne). As 348 people have lost their jobs in our area, I am sure the Minister will want to do everything possible to ensure that a potential buyer is able to come in. In that context and in the context of discussions following the Budget, will he make representations about the track access charges and the increase due to come into effect in 2016, which might put Scottish companies in the coal sector at a disadvantage?

Michael Moore: First, I join the hon. Lady in her concern about the future for the families affected by that hugely significant administration of Scottish Resources Group. She and others has been working tirelessly on the issue, and we will work with her and the Scottish Government to see what we can do to support the families and communities affected. She raises the issue of track access, which I will be happy to discuss with her further.

Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate the Government on cancelling Labour’s planned fuel duty increase and introducing an island fuel duty discount in the Budget, which means that fuel duty on the mainland will be 13p a litre cheaper than it would be under Labour and 18p a litre cheaper on the islands. A Labour Government would have destroyed the Argyll and Bute economy. I congratulate the Government on supporting the rural economy, unlike the Labour party, which did not care and wanted to increase fuel duty by 18p a litre. [Interruption.]

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Michael Moore: Just in case Labour Members did not hear that, I repeat that the measures taken by our Government have saved remote island communities, such as those in my hon. Friend’s constituency, 18p a litre, and they have saved those on the mainland 13p a litre. That is a huge help to hard-pressed families the length and breadth of the country.

Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): Many jobs in Scotland, especially in north-east Scotland, depend on investment in the oil and gas industry. Does the Secretary of State recognise the important role that the Budget has played in delivering tax certainty on decommissioning to unlock that vital investment?

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend always makes a powerful case for the oil and gas industry, as does my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce). It is important to recognise their input in the decisions about decommissioning, which give certainty and good news for investment, not only now but for decades to come.

Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The International Monetary Fund has cut the UK growth forecast and questioned the Government’s austerity programme, and the UK’s credit rating has been downgraded yet again. Why should anyone believe a word that the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury say on the Budget, the currency, or for that matter anything else?

Michael Moore: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that nobody will be listening to him or his party when it comes to currency. I think that everybody recognises that the best deal for Scotland is to stay part of the United Kingdom and to continue to share the currency, unlike his party, which keeps changing its mind about what might be the best option for Scotland. We know already what is best for Scotland: staying part of the UK.

Angus Robertson: Everybody watching will have noted that the Secretary of State did not answer the question. The UK is the fourth most unequal country in the developed world, and today we learnt that the number of people using food banks has doubled. Citizens Advice Scotland has said that that increase illustrates “the devastating impact” of his Government’s policy. Why should people in Scotland put up with a Government they did not elect making those damaging decisions?

Michael Moore: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s analysis, which of course assumes that everything would be rosy in an independent Scotland, despite the hard realities we keep confronting him with. We are absolutely determined to get the economy on a strong footing, invest in our future and support hard-pressed families. That is what the Budget was all about.

Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): This Government promised that they would get people back to work. By how much has long-term unemployment in Scotland been reduced on the Secretary of State’s watch?

Michael Moore: I am interested to hear that the hon. Lady did not welcome the reduction in unemployment announced last week. The number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Scotland is below 200,000 and

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the unemployment rate is 7.3%, which is below the rate for the UK as a whole. We have some very long-term, deep-seated problems that we inherited from her Government that we continue to tackle. We have credible plans; where are hers?

Margaret Curran: Shockingly, the number of people in Scotland who have been out of work for two years has increased by 517% during the Secretary of State’s time in office, which is far worse than across the UK as a whole. Is there anything specific he can offer those people out of work long term in Scotland, or is he just content to be a Tory puppet repeating their lines on the Budget?

Michael Moore: The hon. Lady knows, because she and I visited the Shettleston jobcentre in her constituency, that we are working hard to ensure that we provide support for people in very difficult circumstances in Scotland. She picks just one statistic, which is important, and ignores all the rest. Some 70,000 more people are in employment in Scotland over the past three years. We are determined to ensure that we get the economy back from the brink, where her party left it three years ago. We continue to work hard to do that.

Scotland Referendum

8. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on how many non-UK EU nationals will be eligible to participate in the Scottish independence referendum in 2014. [150806]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): On 15 October 2012, the UK and Scottish Governments signed an agreement to ensure that a legal, fair and decisive referendum on Scotland’s future can take place. It is for the Scottish Parliament to determine the franchise for the referendum.

Mr Hollobone: Would it not be completely outrageous were the Scottish Parliament to decide to use the local election franchise and therefore allow the possibility of the future constitutional make-up of the United Kingdom to be decided by some several hundred thousand non-UK EU nationals?

David Mundell: It will be for the Scottish Parliament to determine the franchise, but my hon. Friend is incorrect: the number of EU nationals able to vote on the Scottish Parliament franchise is less than 2% of the total.

Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Those who defend our country should be allowed to take part in deciding its future. What steps will the Minister take to make sure that armed forces personnel serving abroad will be able to cast their votes in the referendum?

David Mundell: This is an important matter. A service declaration is already in place which allows armed forces personnel with a link to Scotland to register at an address in Scotland. It will be for the Scottish Parliament, if it so chooses, to put additional measures in place.

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Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Does the Minister agree that another difficulty with regard to the people who will be able to vote in this election is the issue of 16 and 17-year-olds? Has he had any discussions with the Scottish Government to see whether they have found a solution to the severe problems that that will cause, including putting 14 and 15-year-olds on the register?

David Mundell: The Scottish Parliament will have the ability to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum. A draft Bill has been introduced for debate in the Scottish Parliament, which is the appropriate place for those issues to be considered.


9. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): What plans he has to visit Corby. [150807]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): I would be very happy to visit Corby, where, as a Scot, I understand I would feel very much at home, with plentiful supplies of the Daily Record, Irn-Bru and my favourite Scotch pies.

Andy Sawford: I thank the Minister for his reply and will take him up on his offer. Corby people are very proud of their Scottish connections, but they are worried that, if the break up of the Union goes through, they will no longer be able to move or trade freely or even to use the same currency. Will the Minister ensure that my constituents’ voices are heard?

David Mundell: Corby is a great example of the British family of nations and we should celebrate it. I urge the hon. Gentleman’s constituents to tell their friends and families in Scotland to vote no in the referendum.

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab) rose—

Mr Speaker: I trust the hon. Gentleman is inquiring about visits to Corby.

Ian Murray: When the Minister visits Corby, will he get the train to Peterborough on the east coast main line? What discussions is the Secretary of State having with his Cabinet colleagues to keep that line in public ownership?

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is aware that the east coast main line is going to return to the franchise arrangements.

Common Agricultural Policy

10. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What discussions he has had on the effects of common agricultural policy reform in Scotland. [150808]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions on CAP reform with a range of industry stakeholders in Scotland. On 27 March, we facilitated a meeting between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment,

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Food and Rural Affairs and the National Farmers Union Scotland on CAP reform-related issues. The UK Government are pressing hard for a new CAP that takes account of the range of interests across the UK, including in Scotland.

Miss McIntosh: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Has he considered the impact of greening the CAP and, in particular, is he confident that there will be match funding from the Treasury?

David Mundell: This is one of the many issues that have been discussed. I and the Secretary of State for Scotland continue to argue for Scotland’s interests in these matters.

Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Does the Minister support the efforts of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to end direct payments out of pillar 1 of CAP? What effect does he think that would have on Scottish farming?

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting the situation. Scotland will have flexibility to determine its own arrangements in relation to CAP reform.

Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): With rising food prices and food poverty, has the Minister made any representations to colleagues about the need to grow more food in Scotland?

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman will know that in his constituency, as in my own constituency, there is a strong view that we should grow more of our own food. I encourage local farmers to do so.

Mr Speaker: What a timely reply from the Minister that was.

Prime Minister

The Prime Minister was asked—


Q1. [150813] Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 24 April.

The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Before I list my engagements, I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to Lance Corporal Jamie Jonathan Webb of 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment, who died in Afghanistan on Tuesday 26 March. He was described as

“an outstanding professional; bright, engaging and hugely talented.”

We must pay tribute to his heroic service to our country.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

Mr McCann: The whole House will wish to associate itself with the Prime Minister’s tribute to Lance Corporal Jamie Webb. We pass on our deepest condolences to his family and friends.

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Labour market statistics show that, even after the tax changes, real earnings have dropped by £1,700 since the last general election. Knowing that hard-working families across our country are being hit hard in their pockets, does the Prime Minister want to show any remorse, or indeed apologise, for giving millionaires, including himself, a tax cut?

The Prime Minister: The people who should be apologising are those in the party that created the mess in the first place. We will ask the richest in our country to pay more in every year of this Parliament than they paid in any year of the last Parliament. That is the truth.

Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): My mother, Maud, was very sad about the death of Baroness Thatcher, but she was delighted that my right hon. Friend committed our party to a referendum on our relationship with the European Union. Given that my mother will be 101 next Thursday, she wondered whether the referendum could be brought forward.

The Prime Minister: I send my fond regards to my hon. Friend’s mum and wish her a long, happy and healthy life. I remind her that if she votes Conservative in 2015, she will have the in/out referendum that the country deserves.

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): First, I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Lance Corporal Jamie Jonathan Webb of 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment. He showed the utmost courage and bravery, and the thoughts of the whole House are with his family and friends.

People are hearing today about patients waiting on trolleys in A and E, in some cases for more than 12 hours. We have even heard of one hospital pitching a treatment tent outside its premises. What does the Prime Minister have to say to those patients who are waiting hour upon hour in A and E?

The Prime Minister: First of all, this Government believe in our NHS and are expanding funding in our NHS. We will not take the advice of the Labour party, which thought that the increases in spending on the NHS were irresponsible. That is its view. We will go on investing in our NHS. With 1 million extra patients visiting A and E every year, we need to continue hitting the important targets that we have so that people are treated promptly.

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister obviously does not realise that he is singularly failing to meet the targets that he has set himself. The number of people waiting more than four hours in A and E is nearly three times higher than when he came to office. First he downgraded the A and E target. Now he is not even hitting it. As he approaches his third anniversary as Prime Minister, he needs to explain why an A and E crisis is happening on his watch.

The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman the figures. For the whole of last year, we met the target for A and E attendance. That is the fact. The number of

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occasions on which it was breached in the last year— 15 times—is lower than the 23 times that it was breached when he was in power in 2008. Those are the facts.

The other point that I would make to the right hon. Gentleman is that there is one part of the country where Labour has been in charge of the NHS for the past three years. That is in Wales, where no A and E target has been hit since 2009. Perhaps he will apologise for that.

Edward Miliband: Let me give the Prime Minister the figures. In 2009-10, 340,000 people waited longer than four hours in A and E. Last year, it was 888,000 people. If he wants to talk about records, the Labour Government left office with higher patient satisfaction than ever before in the NHS, lower waiting lists than ever before in the NHS and more doctors and nurses than ever before in the NHS.

Part of the problem is that the Prime Minister’s replacement for the NHS Direct service is in total chaos. He now has a patchwork, fragmented service in which, over Easter, 40% of calls were abandoned because they were not answered. What is he going to do about it?

The Prime Minister: If anyone wants a reminder of Labour’s record on the NHS, they only have to read the report into the Stafford hospital.

The right hon. Gentleman mentions the number of people waiting a long time for NHS operations. That number has come down since this Government came to office. The fact that he cannot ignore is that since this Government came to office, there are 1 million more people walking into A and E and half a million more people having in-patient treatments. The fact is that waiting times are stable or down, waiting lists are down and the NHS is performing better under this Government than it ever did under Labour.

Edward Miliband: Let me just say that what happened at Stafford was terrible, and both of us talked about that on the day, but what a disgraceful slur on the transformation of the NHS that took place after 1997 and the doctors and nurses who made that happen.

The main reason why the Prime Minister is failing to meet his A and E target month after month is that he decided to take £3 billion away from the front line in a top-down reorganisation that nobody wanted and nobody voted for. As a result, there are 4,500 fewer nurses than when he came to power. Can he explain how it is helping care in the NHS to be giving nurses their P45s?

The Prime Minister: First of all, the right hon. Gentleman is clearly in complete denial about what happened to the NHS under Labour. Let me just remind him what his spending plans are. His shadow Health Secretary was asked,

“does he stand by his comment that it is irresponsible to increase NHS spending?”—[Official Report, 12 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 332.]

He said, “Yes, I do.” That is Labour’s official policy—to cut spending on the NHS, just like it is cutting spending on the NHS in Wales, where waiting times are up, waiting lists are up and quality is down. That is what is happening in the NHS under Labour.

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The Leader of the Opposition also mentions what we have done in terms of reorganisation. That reorganisation will see £4.5 billion extra put into the front line compared with the cuts from Labour.

Edward Miliband: Let me just say to the Prime Minister that he is the guy who cut NHS spending when he came into office and was told off by the head of the UK Statistics Authority for not being straight with people about it.

A and E is the barometer of the NHS, and this Prime Minister might be totally out of touch, but that barometer is telling us that it is a system in distress. According to the Care Quality Commission, one in 10 hospitals do not have adequate staffing levels, and during the winter every hospital was at some point operating beyond the recommended safe level of bed occupancy. Hospitals are full to bursting. He is the Prime Minister. What is he going to do about it?

The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman’s answer is to cut NHS spending, whereas we are investing in it. Let me give him some simple facts about what has happened to the NHS under this Government: 6,000 more doctors; 7,000 fewer managers; 1 million more treated in A and E; half a million more day cases; mixed-sex wards, commonplace under Labour, virtually abolished; infection rates in our NHS at record low levels; and, as I said, waiting times for in-patients down and waiting times for out-patients stable—all of that happening under this coalition Government, a far better record than he could boast.

Edward Miliband: People up and down the country will have heard that this is a Prime Minister with no answer for the crisis in our A and E services across the country. There is a crisis in A and E, and it is no surprise: he has cut the number of nurses; his NHS helpline is in crisis; and he is wasting billions of pounds on a top-down reorganisation that he promised would not happen. The facts speak for themselves: the NHS is not safe in his hands.

The Prime Minister: Let us examine the NHS in Labour’s hands in Wales. Here are the figures. Is the NHS budget being increased? No, it is being cut by 8% by Labour. The last time the urgent cancer care treatment target was met in Wales was 2008. The last time A and E targets were met was 2009. The Welsh ambulance service has missed its call-out target for the last 10 months. And, of course, there is no cancer drugs fund. That is what you get under Labour: cuts to our NHS and longer waiting lists—and all the problems we saw at the Stafford hospital will be repeated over again.

Q2. [150814] James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): Yesterday, figures showed that this Government had reduced the deficit by a third. Does the Prime Minister agree that to borrow and spend more, which the shadow Chancellor has confirmed will be Labour’s policy in 2015, would risk squandering that progress?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are operating in very tough times, but we have got the deficit down by a third, there are 1.25 million extra private sector jobs, and we have seen a record creation of new businesses in our country. The differences

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between the two parties is that we believe in cutting our deficit, whereas it is their official policy to put it up. If they did that, there would be higher interest rates, more businesses going bust and harder times for home owners. That is what Labour offers.

Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Government are absolutely right to prioritise the combating of sexual violence in conflict in their chairmanship of the G8, but the Prime Minister would have more credibility on the subject if he did not accept hundreds of thousands of pounds from, and have private dinners at Downing street with, Mr Ian Taylor. Mr Taylor’s company, Vitol, has admitted having dealings with the notorious Serb war criminal Arkan, who was indicted for

“wilfully causing great suffering, cruel treatment, murder, wilful killing, rape, other inhumane acts.”

Will the Prime Minister stop hosting Mr Taylor at Downing street and give the money back?

The Prime Minister: First, let me thank the hon. Gentleman for what he says about my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary’s very commendable efforts to make sure that rape and sexual violence are no longer used as weapons of war and conflict. The Government are putting a huge impetus behind that through the G8. However, I have to say that I think it is totally regrettable that the hon. Gentleman tries to play some sort of political card in the rest of what he said.

Q3. [150815] Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Does the Prime Minister agree that helping people who want to work hard is the right thing to do, that taking them out of tax altogether is the right thing to do, and that making work pay is the right thing to do—instead of insulting them, as some politicians have done by calling them trash?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is this Government who are on the side of hard-working families: we have kept interest rates low; we have frozen the council tax; we have cut income tax for 24 million people; we have taken more than 2 million people out of income tax altogether; and our welfare reforms—sadly, not supported by the Opposition—are making sure that work always pays.

Q4. [150816] Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab): Today’s Daily Telegraph reports that 1 million people have been declared fit for work by the Department for Work and Pensions. Does that include people like my constituent, Michael Moore, who, despite multiple illnesses and disability, was declared fit for work in July 2011? Mr Speaker, Michael died in February this year, aged just 56.

The Prime Minister: Obviously, I am very sorry, on behalf of the whole House, about the loss of the hon. Lady’s constituent, but I am sure that she—and, indeed, I would have thought everyone in this House—would accept that it is necessary to have a system to check who is available for work, and who is able to work and who is not. The whole point of the employment and support allowance programme is that we can judge those people who can work but who need extra help and those who cannot work, who should always be looked after. I find

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it extraordinary that heads are shaking among Labour Members; I thought it was the Labour party, not the welfare party.

Q5. [150817] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): It is essential that this Government continue with much-needed welfare reform because, coupled with the tremendous increase in private sector jobs of 1.25 million, it is having a real effect in Hastings and Rye, with unemployment falling from 7.4% to 6.8%. Could I urge the Prime Minister to stay on this track and make the difficult decisions when he has to for the good of this country, and not to listen to the voices opposite, which have only one thing to suggest: borrow, borrow, borrow?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The fact is that since the election, the number of people on out-of-work benefits has fallen by 270,000. It is essential that we continue with programmes to boost enterprise, but also to make work pay. We should not listen to the Opposition on issues such as the benefit cap, when the shadow Chancellor was on the radio last week saying that £26,000 was an unfair cap. People across this country will be incredulous that that is the Labour position, but it is.

Q6. [150818] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): Bankers’ bonuses at £15 billion; executive boardroom pay up by 27%; tax cuts for millionaires; tax cuts for wealthy corporations—and the ordinary members of the public have got to pay for it. When is the Prime Minister going to represent all the people in the country and not just his privileged chums?

The Prime Minister: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what this Government have done. We have taken 2 million of the lowest-paid people out of income tax altogether. We have delivered a tax cut for 24 million people. We have frozen the fuel duty. We are freezing the council tax up and down the country, and if people want to make an impact, they should vote Conservative on 2 May to make sure they keep their council tax down.

Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): May I congratulate the Prime Minister on his support for the exhibition on modern slavery in the Upper Waiting Hall? Two hundred years after it was abolished, slavery—modern slavery—continues throughout the United Kingdom. It is about the buying and selling of people, and it is the second most lucrative crime in the world. Can he confirm that his Government will continue to engage with this issue?

The Prime Minister: I am very grateful for what my hon. Friend says. This is an immensely serious issue and I pay tribute to the all-party group in the House of Commons and the House of Lords. I also pay tribute to Anthony Steen, who has campaigned long and hard on this issue. Anyone who thinks that slavery was effectively abolished in 1807 has got another think coming. I would urge Members, if they have not seen this excellent exhibition in that chamber in the House of Commons, to go and see it, and see all the different ways that people can be trapped into slavery. It is notable that it is not just people who are being trafficked from eastern Europe or elsewhere. There are examples of slavery

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involving British citizens in this country being put into forced labour. It is an excellent exhibition and there is more for the Government to do.

Q7. [150819] Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I wonder whether the Prime Minister would be kind enough to tell the House how much he will benefit personally from the scrapping of the 50p tax rate?

The Prime Minister: As I have said before, I will pay every appropriate tax, but like everybody else, every single taxpayer in this country is benefiting from the rise in the personal allowance that we have put in place. Everyone can benefit from a freeze in the council tax. Everyone can benefit from what we have done on fuel duty—and everyone would pay the price of another Labour Government.

Q8. [150820] James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con): The Government’s cap on benefits has already incentivised 8,000 people back into work. Does this not demonstrate how important welfare reform is, getting people back to work and making work pay—a policy opposed by the Opposition?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The measures on welfare reform we are taking, such as the benefit cap, the 1% increase, making sure that people are available for work and making sure that people cannot get jobseeker’s allowance unless they take proper steps to find a job, are all about fairness in our country and making work pay. What is interesting is that every single one of those welfare changes—even the proposal to stop paying housing benefit of, sometimes, up to £100,000 to a single family—has one thing in common: it has been opposed by the Labour party.

Q9. [150821] Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): On the subject of jobs, last week 21 Tory MEPs voted against the EU emissions trading scheme, meaning that British industry will face much higher energy prices than its European competitors, threatening jobs and investment. When will the Prime Minister get a grip of his party and stand up for British business?

The Prime Minister: I thought the hon. Gentleman might start by thanking the Chancellor for the move taken in the Budget to help very important businesses in his constituency with excessive energy costs, but clearly the milk of human kindness is running a bit thinly with him. I have to say, if we are going to get into lectures about MEPs, perhaps he could get his to stop voting against the British rebate.

Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): The Prime Minister will be aware that last week, three people in Cumbria were arrested for apparently blowing the whistle in the public interest over the actions of the police commissioner. Does he agree that that is a threat to freedom of speech and an outrage in a democratic society, and will he intervene to ensure there is an independent investigation?

The Prime Minister: I will look carefully at that case. In general we should support whistleblowers and what they do to help improve the provision of public services, and I will have a look at this case and get back to the hon. Gentleman.

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Q10. [150822] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The wilful neglect of residents in their care homes is a crime, but too often the victims and their families do not get justice. Time and again we have seen injury, abuse and sometimes death. Given that this is the Prime Minister’s third anniversary, when will we have a law that is fit for purpose?

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that issue. Over the past few years we have seen some shocking examples, not just of malpractice but—let us be frank—of crime taking place in our care homes, and a number of investigations are under way. One of the most important things we can do is ensure that the Care Quality Commission is up to the task of investigating those homes properly and has robust structures in place. That was not what we found when we came to office. In terms of ensuring that criminal law is available, it is already available and when there are bad examples, the police and prosecuting authorities can intervene and they should do so.

Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con): Sixty-two people have died using DNP, a highly toxic herbicide that is banned for use as a slimming drug but easily available online alongside other dubious slimming products. What commitment can my right hon. Friend give that he will work across Government to ensure that that trade is stopped, and in so doing, help to prevent the deaths of more young people?

The Prime Minister: Like many people, this morning I read about the tragic case of the girl who died from taking this substance, and one can only think of the heartache that her family, and other families, go through when such things happen. I will look carefully at what my hon. Friend says. This is not an easy issue because the substance is banned as a slimming drug but, as I understand it, is legal as a herbicide. As she says, we must look carefully across Government at what more we can do to warn people about these things.

Q11. [150823] Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Was the Prime Minister consulted on the decision to reject the appointment of Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson to the chair of Sport England?

The Prime Minister: These decisions are, quite rightly, made by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and I think she has reached a very good decision.

Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The Government’s commitment to the armed forces covenant is something that Conservative Members are immensely proud of. The Prime Minister will also be aware of the community covenant, launched by the British Legion, to which 300 local authorities have signed up, although sadly not Enfield council in my constituency or another 132 authorities. Will the Prime Minister join me in urging those councils to sign the covenant locally and help support work across the constituency, particularly before Armed Forces day?

The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. My local authority in Oxfordshire was one of the first to sign up to the community covenant, with all the responsibilities that we feel we

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have for those stationed around RAF Brize Norton, the biggest airbase in the country. I urge all local authorities to look at this issue. The armed forces covenant is a real breakthrough for our country and a way in which we can all show respect for what our armed forces and their families do. I also commend the fact that the Government are using the LIBOR fines to help fund some powerful elements of the armed forces covenant. It means that those people who behaved badly in our economy—some of the banks—are paying for some of those who behave the best.

Q12. [150824] Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Will the Prime Minister explain the eleventh-hour postponement of universal credit pilots, and is it the beginning of the unravelling of his unworkable and unfair welfare reform proposals?

The Prime Minister: I hate to correct the hon. Lady, but the pilots are going ahead, starting in parts of north-west England. I think it is important to have proper pilots and proper evaluation of pilots. We want to learn the lesson of some of the failures of the tax credit system, which was brought in with a big bang but ended up with big disaster. It is right that we are piloting, and as the Secretary of State said, the programme is on target and on budget.

Q13. [150825] Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Council tax payers in Essex paid £5,000 for the then leader of the county council and his cronies to attend the Conservative party conference. That was one of hundreds of dodgy transactions using council credit cards spread over eight years, totalling around £500,000 at an average of more than £1,000 a week, which include 60-plus overseas visits to Australia and Vietnam, among other places. Does the Prime Minister agree that such extravagant misuse of public money should be the subject of an independent inquiry?

The Prime Minister: It is obviously important that all such issues are properly looked into, but I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend. We are frequently in agreement, but on this issue, I believe that, if people in Essex want good value for money, it is important that they back the Conservatives.

Q14. [150826] Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): The Prime Minister believes that food banks are a good example of the big society. Last year, 7,400 people across Stoke-on-Trent, including 2,600 children, needed food banks just to stop them from starving. From this week, owing to his welfare changes, food banks have been forced to restrict food to families with children and people over the age of 65. Is it not true that the Prime Minister has failed Britain, and that his big society is overwhelmed?

The Prime Minister: I am disappointed in what the hon. Gentleman says, because in 2003, the previous Government gave the Trussell Trust, the organisation behind Britain’s food banks, a golden jubilee award for voluntary service. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), whom I am glad to see in his place, said that the Trussell Trust’s

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“outstanding voluntary activity has enhanced and improved the quality of life and opportunity for others in the community.”—[Official Report, 4 June 2003; Vol. 406, c. 10WS.]

Of course, these are difficult times—food bank use went up 10 times under Labour—but I think we should praise people who play a role in our society rather than sneer at them.

15. [150827] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): The chief executive of Cumbria county council is to leave the authority with an agreed package. I believe that the package will be substantial, and that it will run into hundreds of thousands of pounds. Does the Prime Minister agree that that and similar arrangements are difficult for the public to accept, and that they are certainly not a good use of taxpayers’ money?

The Prime Minister: I agree with what my hon. Friend says. We now require councils to publish their pay policies, and councils should vote on those deals so that they can vote against excessive ones. That change has happened under this Government, but I urge all councils, of whatever political persuasion, to look at what they can do to share chief executives and finance directors, and to combine their back-office costs. Everybody knows that public spending reductions would have to be made whoever is in Government. Let us make them by taking it out of the back office rather than the front line.

Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Is the Prime Minister aware that Scottish Coal went into liquidation last weekend, and that 600 hard-working people in Scotland have lost their jobs, the majority of which are in my constituency? The Tories closed the deep mines during the 1980s. Will the Prime Minister stand behind the open cast industry today, or will it just be the same old Tories?

The Prime Minister: I am happy to look at what the hon. Lady says. We want to support all our industries in Britain, including the coal industry, whether in Scotland or in England. Obviously, since the election, the number of people in work in Scotland has gone up, but we need to see that go further and faster. I am happy to look at the particular industrial example she gives.

Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): On Monday, my right hon. Friend came to Derbyshire to support our council candidates for the next election, but at the same time, he visited a manufacturing company. Does he agree that getting manufacturing companies such as the ones in my constituency to continue to export and to expand their exports is our best way out of recession?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Duresta, the furniture manufacturer that I visited, has seen its sales increase by almost 20% over the past year. It is going into new export markets, investing in apprenticeships and doing all of the things the Government are backing and supporting. We want to back many more firms to do exactly that. Her wider point is also right: people in Derbyshire who want another year of a council tax freeze need to vote very carefully on 2 May.

Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Will the Prime Minister give careful consideration to the recommendations of the Environmental Audit Committee

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report on bees, other pollinators and pesticides? On Monday next week, will he give his Government’s backing to the European Commission’s proposed moratorium on the use of three neonicotinoids?

The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at what the hon. Lady says. I am the life patron of the Oxfordshire Beekeepers’ Association. I think I have been neglecting my duties in not being able to give her a better answer today, but I know how important this issue is. If we do not look after our bee populations, very serious consequences will follow.

Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Today sees the publication of the all-party cycling group’s report “Get Britain Cycling”, which calls for leadership from the very top on this issue. Will the Prime Minister look at the report, make sure that he produces a cross-departmental action plan and give his personal commitment and leadership to get Britain cycling? [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. Members on both sides are very discourteous to the good doctor. I cannot for the life of me fathom why there are groans whenever I call the good doctor, but it is very unsatisfactory.

The Prime Minister: I do not always agree with what the hon. Gentleman says, but on this occasion he is absolutely right and the House should heed what he says: we should be doing much more to encourage cycling. The report has many good points. I commend what the Mayor of London has done in London to promote cycling, and I hope local authorities can follow his lead in making sure that we do more.

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Can the Prime Minister tell the House whether the deep shade of red he turned when asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) whether he had been consulted on the appointment of Tanni Grey-Thompson was actually in place of the answer “Yes”?

The Prime Minister: We have an excellent new head of both Sport England and UK Sport—that is what matters. These are decisions for the Secretary of State, and it is absolutely right that she takes them.

Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): Does the Prime Minister agree that one does not solve a debt crisis by borrowing more, and that for the Opposition to have any credibility they need to acknowledge the mess they made, apologise to my constituents, and just say sorry?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On the Government Benches, we know we have to get borrowing down. Frankly, in the past week what we have seen is the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) in his true colours: too weak to stand up to the shadow Chancellor on the deficit, too weak to stand up to his Back Benchers on welfare, and too weak to stand up to the trade unions on just about anything. It was a week in which he said goodbye to David Miliband and hello to George Galloway. No wonder Tony Blair said that they are fellow travellers, not leaders. He was absolutely right.

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Abu Qatada

Mr Speaker: I call Secretary Theresa May. The right hon. Lady has wisely waited for calm. I hope that that is what we now have.

12.32 pm

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on the case of Abu Qatada.

As the whole House will know, successive Governments have sought the deportation of this dangerous man since 2001. The prospect of his deportation now depends on one very narrow issue: the question of whether evidence obtained through the mistreatment of others might be used against him in his home country of Jordan. In January last year, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that there was indeed such a risk, and therefore blocked his deportation. Following that ruling, the British Government sought from the Jordanian Government further information and assurances not just in relation to the treatment of Qatada himself, but about the quality of the legal processes that would be followed throughout his trial.

Although the Special Immigration Appeals Commission noted that the Jordanian Government

“will do everything within their power to ensure that a retrial is fair”,

in November last year it ruled that there was still a risk that a trial in Jordan would breach Qatada’s rights under article 6 of the European convention. Since then, the Government have pursued a twin strategy: first, to appeal SIAC’s decision; and secondly to work with the Jordanian Government to seek further assurances to convince the courts that Qatada would indeed receive a fair trial. I want to take each of those approaches in turn.

First, I shall deal with the Government’s appeal. On 27 March, the Court of Appeal confirmed SIAC’s interpretation of the law and ruled that we could not deport Abu Qatada to Jordan under present conditions. Yesterday, the Court of Appeal refused the Government’s application to appeal that decision to the Supreme Court. The Government disagree with that ruling, and I can tell the House that we will now seek permission to appeal from the Supreme Court itself.

Secondly, I can tell the House that I have signed a comprehensive mutual legal assistance agreement with Jordan. This agreement is fully reciprocal, offers considerable advantages to both countries and reflects our joint commitment to tackling international crime. It covers assistance in obtaining evidence for the investigation and prosecution of crimes in either country and provides a framework for assistance in the restraint and confiscation of the proceeds of crime. It also includes a number of fair trial guarantees that would apply to anyone being deported from either country. I believe that these guarantees will provide the courts with the assurance that Qatada will not face evidence that might have been obtained by torture in a re-trial in Jordan.

Before the agreement can come into force and become a formal treaty, it must be ratified by both countries, and the Jordanian Government will be laying the draft treaty before its Parliament shortly. In the United Kingdom,

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the agreement does not require any changes to our domestic law, but it must be placed before both Houses for 21 sitting days before it is ratified. So I can confirm that the text of the treaty has been laid before both Houses today, and, depending on the date of Parliament’s prorogation, we expect the 21 days to be completed before the end of June. Under Jordanian law, once ratified the provisions of the treaty will take primacy over existing Jordanian law in cases such as Qatada’s. We therefore believe that the treaty will deliver the protections required by SIAC to secure Qatada’s deportation.

I believe that the treaty we have agreed with Jordan, once ratified by both Parliaments, will finally make possible the deportation of Abu Qatada, but as I have warned the House before, even when the treaty is fully ratified, it will not mean that Qatada will be on a plane to Jordan within days. We will be able to issue a new deportation decision, but Qatada will still have legal appeals available to him, and it will therefore be up to the courts to make the final decision. That legal process may well still take many months, but in the meantime I believe that Qatada should remain behind bars.

Lastly, I would like to say this: as any sane observer of this case will conclude, it is absurd for the deportation of a suspected foreign terrorist to take so many years and cost the taxpayer so much money. That is why we need to make sense of our human rights laws and remove the many layers of appeals available to foreign nationals we want to deport. In the meantime, however, the Government are doing everything they can to deport Abu Qatada to Jordan. I believe that this treaty gives us every chance of succeeding in that aim, so I commend this statement to the House.

12.38 pm

Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): I thank the Home Secretary for advance sight of her statement.

The Home Secretary and the courts have agreed that Abu Qatada is a dangerous man who puts security in this country at risk, and the House is united in wanting him deported to stand fair trial in Jordan so that justice can be done and in wanting him to remain in prison in the meantime. I welcome the work that she continues to do to get Abu Qatada deported and the further assurances that she has sought from Jordan, although she will know that the history of Home Office problems in this area means that serious questions remain.

The Home Secretary referred to the European Court judgment of January 2012, which she has previously said she strongly disagrees with. Once that passed, she had two choices: to appeal against its conclusions about the level of proof that the British Government needed to provide before Abu Qatada could be deported or to provide enough evidence from Jordan that she could meet that level of proof. So far, the Home Office has not managed to do either. I welcome this further work with Jordan, but the question for the House and the Court will be whether it meets the specific test that the Court has set.

The Special Immigration Appeals Commission ruled six months ago:

“Until and unless a change is made to the…Code of Criminal Procedure and/or authoritative rulings are made by the Court of Cassation or Constitutional Court which establish that statements

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made to a public prosecutor by accomplices who are no longer subject to criminal proceedings cannot be admitted probatively against a returning fugitive and/or that it is for the prosecutor to prove to a high standard that the statements were not procured by torture, that real risk will remain.”

Will the Home Secretary tell us more about how the new mutual legal assistance agreement will meet those tests? The treaty refers to the obligation on the prosecution, but will she explain whether and how this will be an equivalent of a change to the code of criminal procedure, and whether it will supersede any ruling made by the court of cassation or the constitutional court? We wish the Home Secretary well with the mutual legal assistance treaty, and we hope that it will work. We will support it in the House, and suggest that we hold a debate and a vote in the Commons to demonstrate the strength of support that exists across the House.

Let me ask the Home Secretary more about her approach to the European Court. Everyone agrees that the European Courts have taken way too long over this, as did the British courts—that has rightly been seen as a source of frustration for Home Secretaries—but will she tell us again why she chose, in January 2012, not to appeal against the judgment that she said she disagreed with? I ask her again to show shadow Ministers and the relevant Select Committee Chairs, on Privy Council terms, the legal advice on why she did not appeal. Until she does so, doubts will remain about her legal strategy and about the credibility of her criticism of the European Court.

Will the Home Secretary also tell us whether she is planning to withdraw temporarily from the European convention on human rights, as has been suggested in briefings from No. 10 to the media, and how she would justify such a decision when she has chosen not to appeal against the European Court’s decisions?

The Home Secretary must forgive us for being cautious about her claims and assurances today when some of her previous promises on this matter have been overblown. Twelve months ago, we remember the media being invited to Abu Qatada’s arrest as she told the House that

“today Qatada has been arrested and the deportation is under way”.—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 173.]

However, within 24 hours, the process had stalled. We also remember her saying last year:

“The Government are clear that Qatada has no right to refer the case to the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights, since the three-month deadline to do so lapsed at midnight on Monday.”—[Official Report, 19 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 507.]

However, the European Court said that the request had been submitted within the three-month time limit. And 12 months ago, she also told us:

“I believe that the assurances and the information that we have gathered will mean that we can soon put Qatada on a plane and get him out of our country for good.”—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 175.]

Today, however, we are back to a legal square one again, going through the deportation process.

We want to work with the Home Secretary to make the process work, so that Abu Qatada can be deported as soon as possible. In the past, however, she has

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overstated the evidence, overstated her legal position, and overstated her legal strategy, which has not worked. None of us wants that to happen again.

Mrs May: May I say in response to the shadow Home Secretary’s first question that she should perhaps listen to what she herself said in her statement? She said that SIAC had suggested that there should be a change to a number of aspects of Jordanian law and/or a change to the obligations on the prosecutor. It is such a change to the obligations on the prosecutor that is in the mutual legal assistance agreement that I have signed with Jordan and that has been laid before both Houses of Parliament, and that will therefore deal with that particular issue.

The right hon. Lady asked about the failure to appeal to the European Court. She has raised that issue before and I have answered her before. She seems to think that I should have appealed to the Grand Chamber of the European Court, but that would have jeopardised the Government’s wider deportation with assurances programme and risked the blockage of many other deportation cases. She should also look at what she has previously said on this issue. What she is saying today is not what she was saying last year. In this House, on 17 April last year, she said of me:

“I welcome the assurances that she has obtained from Jordan. Previous agreements were in place, but she was right to pursue further assurances.”

If she thought we should have appealed to the Grand Chamber, why did she think that we needed to pursue those assurances? If that is not clear, she should also remember what else she said:

“We understand, too, that the Home Secretary believes it is too risky to appeal to the Grand Chamber. I understand she would have had legal advice on that, and I do not want her to pursue an unwise and risky process”.

The right hon. Lady asked about the relationship with the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. The House will know that it is my clear view that we need to fix that relationship and that all options, including leaving the convention altogether, should be on the table. The Prime Minister is looking at all options, and that is the only sensible thing to do.

There are a number of questions for the right hon. Lady. She talked about why this did not happen sooner, and we have heard all sorts of claims from the shadow Home Secretary and the shadow Immigration Minister about what I have said. A year ago, I said in this House:

“hon. Members must be aware that”

what I was announcing at that time

“does not necessarily mean that he”—

Abu Qatada—

“will be on a plane to Jordan within days. There is still a potential avenue of appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission court, and beyond. That appeal process could take many months”.—[Official Report, 17 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 175-6.]

I have to tell the right hon. Lady that simply repeating something and wanting it to be true does not make it true; she should look at what was actually said here.

Finally, the right hon. Lady herself has to answer some questions. Does she support what the Government have done? [Interruption.] The right hon. Lady says she wants a vote. I am asking her very clearly whether she believes that the Government have taken the right course

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of action in what we have done. Beyond that, will the Opposition support what we want to do, which is to strip out appeal rights for foreign nationals, or not? Will we have a cross-party agreement that we need to deal with the issue of the length of time deportations take? We could do that by taking out layers of appeal. Perhaps even more significantly, will the Opposition agree with us that we need to sort out our human rights laws, which were passed by their Government?

This mutual legal assistance agreement with Jordan has clauses within it that, as I say, address the issue raised by the SIAC court and the European Court about Abu Qatada. I hope that the right hon. Lady will support the Government—not just on this case, but in sorting out our human rights laws and our processes of deportation.

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Given the way in which successive British Governments have been made to look impotent by the European convention and regime, when will my right hon. Friend bring proposals before this House to ensure that the will of Parliament and of the overwhelming majority of the British people can be upheld, common sense applied and justice delivered in these difficult cases?

Mrs May: My right hon. Friend will have to wait and see what we intend and are able to bring to this House. I have already indicated that I intend to address some of these issues in a new immigration Bill if parliamentary time allows for it.

Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab): Abu Qatada’s legal team have used the Human Rights Act 1998 to suggest that if extradition took place, evidence gained through torture would be used in a trial against him. Surely his team would have more success if it changed tack and argued that Abu Qatada might commit suicide, in which case they would have the support of the Home Secretary.

Mrs May: I do not think that that intervention was worthy of the right hon. Gentleman.

Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): I support the Home Secretary’s attempts to deport Abu Qatada and her respect for the courts, even though Governments sometimes clearly disagree with their decisions. Given that agreement with Jordan could be a game changer—in this case and in others—is there an intention to seek similar agreements with other countries where these issues arise? Will she update us on her intention to look again at prosecuting Abu Qatada in this country, which I know she was investigating at the end of last year?

Mrs May: On the first issue, we have a number of deportation with assurances agreements that we have signed with other countries, and deportations have been possible under them. Mutual legal assistance agreements also exist with a number of other countries. A very particular point has been raised by the courts in respect of one case, but we will obviously look at the wider implications.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s second point, as he will know, we have always made it clear that we will continue to consider whether there is any prospect of

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our prosecuting Abu Qatada here in the United Kingdom. The Metropolitan police are investigating the issue of the breach of bail conditions, and the right hon. Gentleman would not expect me to comment on an ongoing police investigation.

Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The Home Secretary has rightly said that Abu Qatada is a dangerous man who should remain behind bars. How confident is she that the bail conditions can be sustained for a lengthy period, given that the appeals will no doubt continue for many months? If she is not able to sustain them—because they will be challenged by Abu Qatada’s team—does she intend to impose a terrorism prevention and investigation measure on him, involving the maximum restrictions, so that we can ensure that he is not free to walk the streets of this country?

Mrs May: Given her experience, the right hon. Lady will know that we do not comment publicly on whether or not we intend to impose TPIMs on individuals. If an application for bail is made, the Home Office will vigorously defend its belief, and my belief, that Abu Qatada should remain behind bars.

Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): What is the worst thing that could happen to us if we did just put Abu Qatada on a plane? If it is a fine or incurring the displeasure of the European Court of Human Rights, would it not be best for us to withdraw temporarily, put him on a plane, and then rejoin?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend and others have been raising for some time the possibility of our simply defying our international legal obligations and putting Abu Qatada on a plane. My answer to her today is the same as the answer that I have given to others in the past: I believe that the UK Government should abide by the rule of law.

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): This has turned into a political and judicial farce. The Home Secretary has spent a huge amount of time on the issue, and she must feel very let down by the Home Office silks who kept telling her that there was enough evidence to remove Abu Qatada. While of course I welcome the treaty that she has signed, it does seem extraordinary that we have conducted a treaty with a foreign Government just to remove one individual. Is she satisfied that that will be enough, or does she think that it will be necessary for her to go to Jordan to deal with any other outstanding points? Can she also assure us that if the Court wants to hear from the Jordanian Government as an amicus curiae, the Jordanian Government will be able to put representations directly to it?

Mrs May: I have made it clear at every stage that we should continue to talk to the Jordanian Government, and should do our utmost to ensure that we can achieve what is wanted by every Member in the Chamber, and, I believe, by all members of the public, namely the deportation of Abu Qatada. We have been clear about our twin-track approach, and we continue that approach.

I must challenge the right hon. Gentleman on one point. As I said, we have signed a wide-ranging mutual legal assurance agreement with the Jordanian Government, which will affect the deportations of individuals in both

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directions regardless of whether or not they are Abu Qatada. It so happens that within that agreement are fair trial guarantees that could be applied in the case of Abu Qatada, but the agreement itself is a wider document, which has been signed by the two Governments and which, following full ratification in both the Jordanian Parliament and our Parliament, will take the status of a treaty.

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): All that my constituents see are judges who are ignoring the will of Parliament, ignoring the cost to the taxpayer, and ignoring the victims of terrorism. Is it not time for us to change the law and extricate ourselves from all the human rights legislation, so that this sort of thing never happens again?

Mrs May: As I have made clear both in the Chamber and outside it, I believe that we need to think about our relationship with the European convention on human rights and European Court of Human Rights. I believe that while we are members of the convention and subject to the Court, we should abide by the rule of law—that is what people would expect the Government to do—but I also believe that we need to change the relationship, and that everything should be on the table in that regard.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the Home Secretary recognise that the influence of the European convention on human rights over many years has been beneficial in outlawing questioning under torture and protecting the human rights of many people throughout Europe, including people in this country? Does she also recognise that persuading Jordan to accept a non-torture clause in the putative treaty that she has presented to the House was a product of the values of the European convention? Is it not the case that we should be talking not about leaving it, but about extending the values contained in it to the rest of the world if we can possibly do so?

Mrs May: The European convention was signed for a particular purpose. Over the years, the European Court has itself interpreted the convention in particular ways, and I believe that when it raised the issue of Abu Qatada and article 6, it moved the goalposts.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned torture in connection with Jordan and the agreement that has been signed. I remind him that the Jordanian Government themselves changed their constitution to outlaw torture. The case of Abu Qatada went before SIAC, and SIAC reached the judgment that it did, because the case law had not been tested at that stage. The Jordanian Government themselves took the step of outlawing torture, and I think that we should congratulate them on the changes that they have already made in their legal system.

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): The Home Secretary has to convince the Supreme Court that her case raises an arguable point of law of general public importance. Should she not therefore put the key constitutional question: is Strasbourg entitled to move the goalposts, or does our Supreme Court have the last word?

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Mrs May: My hon. Friend and I have had a number of discussions and question-and-answer sessions relating to this issue, not least in the Home Affairs Committee last week. At the heart of the point that he has raised today is the issue of the relationship between Britain and the European Court of Human Rights.

As I have already said in answer to other questions, I believe that we should consider all the options, and that that should include leaving the jurisdiction of the Court altogether. However, we are currently signatories to the convention and must abide by its rulings, and I believe that Governments must abide by the law. Even if we were to ignore the Court and put Abu Qatada on a plane regardless of its ruling—and I do not believe that we would be able to do so in practice—we would risk being ordered by the Court to bring him back to Britain and pay him compensation. Worse than that, as soon as we started to ignore our obligations under international law, we would not be able to rely on other countries’ obligations to us under international law. I think that that would jeopardise our national security and, indeed, jeopardise many other deportation cases.

I fully understand the frustration felt by my hon. Friend and others who share his views, but our options involve operating within the law, and I believe that we should operate within the law or change the law. Dare I describe urging the Government to break the law as a rather reckless step?

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): The Home Secretary has now discovered how difficult it is to put this man on a plane to Jordan. Given the possibility that her latest efforts will be thwarted, has she considered trying to negotiate a fair trial on neutral territory in order to overcome objections, using a model similar to the one that was used to bring the Libyan bomber to justice?

Mrs May: The suggestion that we have suddenly discovered how difficult it is to deport Abu Qatada is wide of the mark. That has been absolutely clear from the beginning. What I myself have made clear from the beginning is that we need to follow the processes of law. It has taken time and it will continue to take time, but I believe that it is the right thing to do, and that it will mean that we can eventually deport him.

Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on seeking a solution to this vexing situation. Do the fair trial guarantees in the comprehensive mutual legal assistance agreement with Jordan match the standards for fair trial under the English court system? If so, does that not constitute a huge improvement for those who face trial as British subjects in Jordan?

Mrs May: Obviously, the mutual legal assistance agreement, which when ratified will become a treaty, provides for people other than Abu Qatada. It is a general agreement on fair trial arrangements, the exchange of information and other issues. It provides that in all cases, whether for somebody being deported to Jordan from the UK who is not Abu Qatada or for deportations the other way round.

Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is it not obvious that this saga will continue for some time and that all the Home Secretary’s efforts have so far failed miserably to get this preacher of hatred out of Britain?

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Following on from an earlier question and some of the questions I have asked previously, why cannot the appropriate authorities look at prosecution in this country not just for breach of bail conditions but for some of the remarks he is alleged to have made that clearly incite race hatred? Like me, many people must find it difficult to understand why no attempt is being made to prosecute him in the United Kingdom.

Mrs May: I have made it clear on a number of occasions that prosecution has always been alongside the other activities that the Government are undertaking. It is looked at. At the moment, we have an active police investigation, on which it is not appropriate for me to comment. It is not the case, as the hon. Gentleman’s question seems to imply, that prosecution has never previously been considered. I remind him that, as he well knows, prosecution is not a matter for the Home Secretary; it is a matter for the Crown Prosecution Service.

Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does the Home Secretary realise that she has massive support from the British people for the work she has been doing to get rid of an odious man from this country? She has that support because people recognise the frustrations involved in the processes, thanks to the Labour Government’s human rights legislation. I congratulate her on the mutual legal assistance arrangements with Jordan, and I recommend that she continues on her course; eventually it will succeed and we will rid this country of a dangerous and odious man.

Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. He is absolutely right: everybody wants to see Abu Qatada deported to Jordan. It is frustrating that it has taken so long. As I said in my statement, the process started in 2001, so it is not something that has suddenly come up for this Government. We have been taking steps and we have progressed, in that the Special Immigration Appeals Commission accepted the assurances from the Jordanian Government in a number of areas in relation to a retrial. We still have the single point to deal with, and I believe that the mutual legal assistance agreement will provide widely for deportations between both countries and will also deal with the point about Abu Qatada.

Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): The Secretary of State rightly emphasised that, under present conditions, the SIAC ruling prevents her from deporting Qatada. Presumably, the comprehensive treaty with Jordan is designed to meet the circumstances to which SIAC refers. I assume that we cannot go back to SIAC for a revision of the ruling, although perhaps she will confirm that point, but perhaps we can use at the Supreme Court the arguments she has made today. If we cannot, this saga will run on and on, and will become an increasing farce, to the embarrassment of the whole House and to her in particular.

Mrs May: I remind the hon. Gentleman that as I said in my statement, we continue to adopt a twin-track approach. He referred to the Supreme Court. Obviously, we are seeking leave to appeal direct to the Supreme Court. If the appeal is accepted, the case will be on points of law in relation to the earlier SIAC judgment,

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and on only those points of law. Assuming that the treaty is ratified in both the Jordanian Parliament and this Parliament, it will enable me to make a fresh deportation decision about Abu Qatada.

Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): As I understand it, this is the first time that a deportation order has been blocked on fair trial grounds under article 6. What assessment, if any, has the Home Office made of the number of claims likely to follow the judicial review, and will my right hon. Friend commit to a Bill in the Queen’s Speech that unequivocally deals in primary legislation with article 6 and article 8 grounds for frustrating deportation orders?

Mrs May: As I said previously, parliamentary time allowing, I intend to bring forward an immigration Bill to deal with the matters that can be dealt with. As my hon. Friend rightly says, although we are focusing on article 6 today, there is also an article 8 issue. Despite the fact that last year the House unanimously approved changes to immigration rules in relation to article 8, Members will know that unfortunately one of the judges in the lower tribunal indicated that it was only a weak parliamentary debate, which is why I intend and expect to bring primary legislation to the House.

Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): It is remarkable that the Home Secretary has had to confirm to the House that she does not intend to break the law. Can she confirm whether she is considering temporary withdrawal from the European convention to deal with the case of one man? What would that do to our international reputation?

Mrs May: I note the comment the hon. Gentleman made at the beginning of his remarks. I think it is important that a Home Secretary is willing to stand in the House and say that the Government should abide by the rule of law. There is an issue about the relationship between the Government and the European Court, but it is wider than this particular case. I believe that in dealing with that issue, all potential aspects should be on the table and should be considered.

Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The framers of the European convention on human rights never intended that it should usurp the autonomy of UK jurisdiction or the sovereignty of Parliament. The Home Secretary needs to be bold and look at the example of other countries with regard to the efficacy of suspension from the European Court of Human Rights. Apart from the wilder shores of the Liberal Democrats and the Labour left, there is clearly settled consensus on that. My constituents and those of other hon. Members are fed up with waiting; we want proposals at the earliest opportunity.

Mrs May: My hon. Friend raises points and puts a view as he has done in the past. He has been consistent. We too are consistent in accepting that we need to change the relationship with the European Court and that we need to look again at the Human Rights Act. Conservative Members came into the House at the last election with a commitment to repeal the Act and I have every confidence that we will go into the next election with that commitment.

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Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): This farce makes the Government look incompetent as well as impotent. Can the Home Secretary tell me whether previously loyal Conservatives will have to vote for the UK Independence party before she pays attention to them?

Mrs May: I am really not sure what relevance that has to the signing of a mutual legal assistance agreement with the Jordanian Government. Over the last three years, the Government have taken every step at every stage to ensure that we reach the end point we all want, which is the deportation of Abu Qatada.

Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her determination to remove that man, and on her commitment to do so within the law. She will be aware that many people believe that other countries that are signatories to the European convention act differently and can get rid of people who are a clear danger to their society. Does she think that the proposals she has outlined, including the removal of the layers of appeal available to foreign criminals, will reassure the public who hold that view?

Mrs May: While it is a view widely propounded that other countries find it easier to deport people, that view is not always based on as much fact as those who put it forward would like us to believe. It is important for us to shorten the deportation process. The steps we are looking at in relation to removing layers of appeal will both ensure that people have access to justice, which is important, and that we shorten the process so that we can deport people who are a danger to us rather more quickly than we have been able to do so far.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Home Secretary for her statement. Her frustration is shared by all in the Chamber. In legal circles and in some of today’s press, it is stated that it may be necessary to suspend human rights legislation for six months to enable the deportation to happen. Can she confirm that that strategy is being considered as an option to ensure that the deportation of Abu Qatada can be completed?

Mrs May: In relation to the deportation of Abu Qatada, we are pursuing the twin track that I set out to the House. As I said, an important step has been taken with the signing of the wider-ranging mutual legal assistance agreement, but we retain the intention to appeal directly to the Supreme Court, and we are seeking leave to do so. We are developing that twin track. The relationship between the Human Rights Act, the European Court and the European convention and the views of the UK and the Government is a wider issue and it is right that we look at all the options.

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I thank the Home Secretary for yet again coming to the House to keep us informed. Further to the question of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), surely the Secretary of State should be following a third way by giving notice to the Council of Europe that we intend to come out of the convention in six months’ time, meaning that we would be able to withdraw and act legally by deporting Abu Qatada. We would then have six months to see

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whether the other process that she outlined will work. Does she not think that it would be a good idea to give that notice to the Council of Europe today?

Mrs May: I think it is right that the Government pursue the twin-track path that I have set out. I never thought that I would see the day when my hon. Friend would stand in the House of Commons proposing that we adopt a middle way.

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Is it not the case that there would be no human rights in Europe were it not for this country and its empire standing alone in 1940 against the forces of tyranny that threatened our continent, and that we need not be lectured about human rights by anyone else? Given the dysfunctionality of the discredited European convention, it is time for us to leave—and to leave now—and to establish our own Bill of Rights so that we can decide these things for ourselves.

Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right to remind us of the valiant stance that this country took against tyranny. He is also right to comment on the fact that we need to examine the relationship between this country and the European Court of Human Rights, which is of course part of the issue of the convention. I say to him, as I have said to everyone else, that all options are on the table, which include removing ourselves from the Court and the convention.

Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): How much has this cost so far, and how much is it likely to cost in the future?

Mrs May: I am not in a position to give my hon. Friend a figure for the costs at this stage, although certain legal aid costs have been published. I undertook to inform the Home Affairs Committee of the position as best I can, because I was asked such a question at its sitting last week.

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I thank the Home Secretary for her statement; her evident exasperation will be widely reflected in my constituency. Even if the Supreme Court agrees to hear the appeal against the Court of Appeal’s ruling, what grounds are there to believe that the Supreme Court will overturn that decision, given that the Court of Appeal’s judgment stated that the contention that SIAC had erred in law was “particularly difficult to sustain”?

Mrs May: We will continue to argue on a point of law that we believe is arguable before the courts, notwithstanding the view taken by the Court of Appeal, but I cannot prejudge the decision that the Supreme Court will take. It is right that the Government continue to ask for leave to appeal directly to the Supreme Court so that, if the appeal is accepted, the case can be tested in the very highest court in the land.

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): May I congratulate the Secretary of State on the way in which she has dealt with terrorists and suspected terrorists, because in the past three years, she has rescinded the British nationality of 16 individuals due to acts linked

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to terrorism that make it not conducive for them to be in this country, which is far more than any previous Secretary of State?

Mrs May: I note my hon. Friend’s comments. When we came into government, we were clear that we needed to ensure that we could act against extremists, including violent extremists, and we have been pursuing that in the way that he sets out, as well as though our policy of exclusions.

Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): May I warmly thank my right hon. Friend for all the work that she has done? She has already managed to remove one extremist, Abu Hamza—he has slung his hook off to America—and I have every faith that her work will continue. However, my constituents are frustrated not only because it is so difficult to unpick Labour’s Human Rights Act, but because of reports of the benefits that Abu Qatada might well be receiving in this country. Has my right hon. Friend spoken to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to ensure that Abu Qatada is not getting anything to which he is not entitled?

Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his opening remarks, but may I say that an awful lot of work and effort is also being put in by Home Office officials and the Security Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire)? On the last point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), I simply say that he should not believe everything he reads in the papers about such matters.

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): My right hon. Friend will be well aware of the widespread anger throughout the country about the amount of time it is taking to deal with this, but is she also aware that there is widespread understanding throughout the country, if not among all Members of the House, that there is an obligation on the Home Secretary and the Government to obey the law and abide by the decision of the courts, so we appreciate that she has no choice in the matter? Will she confirm that the Government’s position is made more difficult by the human rights legislation that the previous Labour Government passed in this House, although Labour Members take no responsibility whatsoever for the mess that we are in?

Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for her comments. She is absolutely right to remind us that the previous Labour Government passed the Human Rights Act. Several Labour Members have spoken about dealing with human rights, but they brought the European convention into British legislation, and we will have to deal with that legislation if we are to sort out the wider issue of our relationship with the European Court.

Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): I welcome the arrangements that the Home Secretary is negotiating with Jordan. Does she agree that it is all very well for Opposition Members to carp and criticise in a typical fit of political opportunism, but that they should reflect on the massive contribution that they made to the mess in which we find ourselves? Indeed, what we would like from them is an apology.

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Mrs May: One thing that we never seem to get from the Opposition, in any aspect of their policies, is an apology for what we had to inherit. The deportation of Abu Qatada has been considered by successive Governments since 2001. We have taken several steps that I believe have put us a position in which we will be able to achieve that end. I have been absolutely clear that rights of appeal will be available to Abu Qatada if a new deportation decision is issued, so the process could take many months—it will not be over quickly—but the Government have been absolutely right to take such action. We have reduced the issues that must be dealt with to this single point that we believe the agreement will address.

Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): It is a farce that it has taken so long—it will clearly take a while longer yet—to remove this individual, who we all agree is a danger. That farce damages faith in politics, plays into the hands of extremists and, tragically, undermines my constituents’ support for human rights legislation. In that context, may I warmly welcome what the Home Secretary says about changing the law so that we no longer find ourselves in the ridiculous position whereby the rights of one terror suspect seem to trump our constituents’ rights to live freely and safely?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right. We should be able to balance the rights of the individual against the wider rights of society. I understand his point about his constituents’ attitude to human rights. Those who propounded the changes that took place need to understand the risk that the concept of human rights becomes discredited if people see it as being used consistently to stop us from deporting those who are a danger to this country.

Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): My right hon. Friend has extradited several terrorist suspects from Britain, including Abu Hamza, so it is right that she maintains the same strong resolve to see Abu Qatada deported. Does she recall the number of years that the Labour party had in which to remove these dangerous individuals from our country and how it singularly failed to do so?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right. As I said, Abu Qatada’s case started back in 2001 and we are attempting to achieve what the previous Government could not achieve. I believe we are closer to doing that as a result of the agreement that we have signed.

Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): My constituents consistently ask, “Why don’t we just stick this man on a plane and have done with it, regardless of what the European convention on human rights says?” Will my right hon. Friend confirm, however, that as much as we all want rid of this dreadful, odious little man, we all have greater benefit from living under a Government who stick to their own laws as they are in place at present?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend is right. Many people say, “Why don’t you just put this individual on a plane?”, but that would not, I believe, be practically possible in relation to the action that the courts would take. Also, it is important—my hon. Friend says there are wider benefits—that the Government are willing to say that we abide not just by our rule of law, but by our international legal obligations.

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Point of Order

1.20 pm

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I do not consider that I received a proper reply from the Home Secretary to the question whether the Supreme Court should decide the key constitutional matter, as she descended to what some might describe as personal abuse. May I ask your advice as to whether this is an appropriate matter that I might seek to raise on the Adjournment?

Mr Speaker: Nothing unparliamentary has occurred. The hon. Gentleman must make up his own mind. It is entirely open to him to apply for an Adjournment debate which realistically, if it were granted, would be in the next Session. I know that he is dextrous in his use of parliamentary opportunities.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Ambidextrous.

Mr Speaker: I did not say he was ambidextrous. I said he was dextrous, but I am always grateful for the sedentary chuntering of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant).

24 Apr 2013 : Column 902

Planning Permission (Financial Penalties)

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

1.21 pm

Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable local planning authorities to impose a mandatory financial penalty where planning permission has been deliberately breached; and for connected purposes.

I recall, as a newly elected councillor in Newcastle-under-Lyme, being astonished to see a walled mansion being built in a particularly pleasant spot and being told by the ward member that, although it clearly contravened the planning permission that had been given, nothing could be done. Ever since then, I have been concerned about a lack of fairness in the planning system, or at least in its administration, which seems to impose considerable burdens on the vast majority of ordinary citizens who play by the rules, while the small minority who do not do so get away with the planning equivalent of murder.

Judging by the fact that I have seen examples of this in all three planning authorities with which I have had a close connection—Newcastle under Lyme borough council, Stafford borough council and South Staffordshire district council—I believe this to be a widespread problem and not peculiar to a few areas. Indeed, I have been contacted by one council which highlighted some serious deliberate abuses of planning. Although the council welcomed the amendments through the Localism Act to the scale of fines that can be levied, it believes that these do not go far enough to act as a deterrent.

The national planning policy framework states:

“Effective enforcement is important as a means of maintaining public confidence in the planning system.”

It also states:

“Enforcement action is discretionary, and local planning authorities should act proportionately in responding to suspected breaches of planning control. Local planning authorities should consider publishing a local enforcement plan to manage enforcement proactively, in a way that is appropriate to their area. This should set out how they will monitor the implementation of planning permissions, investigate alleged cases of unauthorised development and take action where it is appropriate to do so.”

The Bill which I am asking leave to introduce would require local authorities to impose substantial and proportionate fines on those who deliberately and clearly breached planning consent in such cases or who built without consent at all.

The authority would clearly have discretion to determine whether the breach of consent was deliberate and clear, but it seems to me, as I am sure it does to most who have been involved in such matters, that it is not difficult to distinguish between an inadvertent and minor breach and one which is deliberate and clear.

The Bill would also make it clear that a proportionate fine would remove all actual and potential financial gain made by the developer as a result of the deliberate breach of consent, and permit a penalty to be imposed in addition. Under my Bill, councils would be required to use the proceeds of fines to the benefit of the community in which the breach occurred, helping to restore public confidence in the planning system and delivering clear results from enforcement action.

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I am not seeking to impose new bureaucratic burdens on planning. No law-abiding citizen or development company would be caught by these provisions, nor would fines be imposed for slight, unintentional infringements of planning permission. Indeed, law-abiding citizens are likely to welcome proper fines being imposed on those who decide to break the law by breaching planning permission. Everyone who goes through the planning process knows that it can be time-consuming and expensive, but they also know, or should know, that they are being required to do what everyone else must do in order either to preserve the character of the built environment in which they live or as part of developments in their community which have been agreed upon through the democratic process. If people see wilful breaches of planning permission, or development with no permission at all and no sanction imposed, they understandably feel aggrieved. The result is that the planning system comes into disrepute and there is a strong sense of injustice.

Clearly, I also want to see a more efficient planning system with fewer delays and unnecessary costs, and it is the responsibility of local planning authorities to achieve this. There must be a carrot as well as a stick. A letter to Planning in January 2009 under the headline “Process drives developers to eschew approvals route” reads:

“The planning process has become so lengthy, complicated and bureaucratic that unscrupulous developers have found a more efficient, profitable and quicker method of obtaining permissions. They simply ignore the system.”

But as they improve their systems, planning authorities must have the ability to deal properly with those unscrupulous developers.

One argument which might be advanced against my Bill is that there are already sufficient sanctions available to planning authorities. It is true that they are able to order the demolition of the offending development and have been known to do so. But more often than not, demolition is considered a disproportionate penalty, and the result is that the illegal development is sanctioned in retrospect.

Fines can also be levied. For instance, there is a maximum fine for the unauthorised display of an advertisement of £2,500. For unauthorised works, there are fines of up to £20,000 upon conviction in the magistrates court and an unlimited fine if convicted by the Crown court. But these cases rarely go to court and the fines are almost never imposed. Certainly, that has not happened in any of the cases which I have seen locally and believe merited such penalties.

What is needed is an automatic sanction which falls short of demolition, unless that is clearly the answer, but which means that the developer not only gains no financial reward from their illegal activity, but incurs a penalty. I think of a recent case in my constituency in which homes were constructed of a size that was considerably larger than that for which permission had been given. I would have wished to see a fine imposed which was equivalent to the difference in value between the type of house actually built and that which had been permitted, with a penalty on top. Such a fine, which the developer would have known about in advance, would make it less likely that he would have gone ahead and flouted planning permission to the distress and disadvantage of several local residents.

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My Bill would particularly support places such as the City of Westminster, which contacted me over this issue. It has been a serious matter for that council, not least because of the high land values and the potential financial gains which can be made though breaches of consent. One specific example the council shared involved major international businesses displaying large scaffold advertising banners during London 2012 Olympics. This case was subject to enforcement and the deputy chief magistrate who heard the case stated in her summation that the scale of fines was not high enough and needed to be reviewed. This deliberate abuse of the planning system purely for financial gain resulted in a fine in one case of just £2,000—far less than the advantage gained.

The City of Westminster also pointed out the impact of unauthorised short-term lets which skew the rental market and squeeze out genuine long-term renters. Ensuring that such breaches resulted in fines which removed any financial gain would encourage renters to follow the law.

My Bill serves to strengthen the hand of local authorities in a proportionate manner to deter those who wish to use for their own gain the ineffectiveness of the current application of sanctions on unauthorised development. It is, I believe, a necessary part of a more efficient and fair planning system.

Question put and agreed to.


That Jeremy Lefroy, Fiona Bruce, Gavin Williamson, Paul Farrelly, Andrea Leadsom, Mr Michael McCann, Steve Brine, Andrew Griffiths, Jim Shannon, Peter Luff, Mr Robin Walker and Mr Gary Streeter present the Bill.

Jeremy Lefroy accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 26 April and to be printed (Bill 166).

Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During Scottish questions earlier today, the Secretary of State agreed to group Questions 6 and 7. I am puzzled as to why my question, Question 12, which was exactly the same, was not also grouped. As you know, I stood up at the time to try to ask my question but was unsuccessful. That is not a complaint; I just wonder how questions are grouped and who decided how they are grouped.

Mr Speaker: The short answer to the question in the hon. Gentleman’s point of order is that responsibility for the grouping or non-grouping of questions lies entirely with the Government. Ordinarily, the Government make a calculation of the likely point that will be reached in Question Time, based on previous experience, and judge accordingly whether or not they think it appropriate to group Questions. It is not a matter for the Chair. I am genuinely sorry if the hon. Gentleman was disappointed not to be able to participate in the exchanges on—if memory serves me correctly—the effect of the Budget upon Scotland, but I know that he is a dedicated and assiduous contributor to our proceedings and am sure that he will seek to catch the eye of the Chair in future. In the meantime, his dissatisfaction has been registered with the Chair, the House and the Government Whip sitting on the Treasury Bench.