24 Jun 2013 : Column 42
Department of Energy and Climate Change (Abolition) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies and Mr Douglas Carswell, presented a Bill to make provision for the abolition of the Department of Energy and Climate Change and for its functions to be absorbed into the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 1 November; and to be printed (Bill 49.)
Married Couples (Tax Allowance) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Graham Brady, Dr Julian Lewis and Martin Vickers, presented a Bill to make provision for a tax allowance for married couples.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 1 November; and to be printed (Bill 50.)
Foreign Aid Ring-Fencing (Abolition) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Dr Julian Lewis and Martin Vickers, presented a Bill to make provision for foreign aid and development not to be linked to a specific percentage of Gross National Income, but to be set yearly, by Parliament, in relation to need.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November; and to be printed (Bill 51.)
Charitable Status for Religious Institutions Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Graham Brady, Martin Vickers and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to make provision for a presumption that religious institutions meet the public benefit test for charitable status.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 1 November; and to be printed (Bill 52.)
Same Sex Marriage (Referendum) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies and Martin Vickers, presented a Bill to make provision for a referendum on whether same sex marriage should be allowed.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November; and to be printed (Bill 53.)
Wind Farm Subsidies (Abolition) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Conor Burns, Richard Drax and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to make provision for the cessation of subsidies for the development of wind farms.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November; and to be printed (Bill 54.)
24 Jun 2013 : Column 43
Withdrawal from the European Convention on Human Rights and Removal of Alleged Terrorists Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Dr Julian Lewis, Martin Vickers and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to make provision for an application to the Council of Europe to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights and to deport alleged terrorists subject to approval by the British courts.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 13 September; and to be printed (Bill 55.)
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): That is my wedding anniversary.
Romanian and Bulgarian Accession (Labour Restriction) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Dr Julian Lewis, Martin Vickers and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to make provision for restrictions on the residence in the UK of Bulgarian and Romanian nationals to continue.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 13 September; and to be printed (Bill 56.)
BBC Privatisation Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies and Mr Douglas Carswell, presented a Bill to make provision for the privatisation of the British Broadcasting Corporation by providing shares in the Corporation to all licence fee payers.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November; and to be printed (Bill 57.)
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Abolition) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Graham Brad, Dr Julian Lewis and Adam Afriyie, presented a Bill to make provision for the abolition of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, and its responsibilities to be allocated to other Departments of State.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 13 September; and to be printed (Bill 58.)
Prime Minister (Replacement) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Graham Brady, Dr Julian Lewis and Adam Afriyie, presented a Bill to make provision for the appointment of a Prime Minister in the event that a Prime Minister is temporarily or permanently incapacitated.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 29 November; and to be printed (Bill 59.)
24 Jun 2013 : Column 44
United Kingdom (Withdrawal from the European Union) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Dr Julian Lewis, Martin Vickers and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to make provision for the Government to give notice under Article 50 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 October; and to be printed (Bill 60.)
Asylum (Time Limit) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Adam Afriyie and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to require that asylum claims in the United Kingdom be lodged within three months of the claimant’s arrival in the United Kingdom; and that persons who have already entered the United Kingdom and wish to make an asylum claim must do so within three months of the passing of this Act.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 October; and to be printed (Bill 61.)
Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Dr Julian Lewis, Adam Afriyie and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to make provision to restrict the entitlement of non-UK citizens from the European Union and the European Economic Area to taxpayer-funded benefits.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 62.)
Illegal Immigrants (Criminal Sanctions) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell and Mr Graham Brady, presented a Bill to make provision for criminal sanctions against those who have entered the UK illegally or who have remained in the UK without legal authority.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 63.)
Sexual Impropriety in Employment Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies and Mr Douglas Carswell, presented a Bill to require that claims by employees alleging sexual impropriety be limited to cases where the alleged misconduct is contrary to the criminal law and has been reported to the police.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 12 July; and to be printed (Bill 64.)
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Collection of Nationality Data Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Mr Douglas Carswell and Dr Julian Lewis, presented a Bill to require the collection and publication of information relating to the nationality of those in receipt of benefits and of those to whom national insurance numbers are issued.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 65.)
Foreign Nationals (Access to Public Services) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Graham Brady and Adam Afriyie, presented a Bill to restrict access by foreign nationals to United Kingdom public services for which no charge is made.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 18 October; and to be printed (Bill 66.)
House of Lords (Maximum Membership) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr Douglas Carswell, Mr Graham Brady and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to provide for a maximum limit on the number of Peers entitled to vote in the House of Lords, and to provide for a moratorium on new appointments.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 12 July; and to be printed (Bill 67.)
Control of Offshore Wind Turbines Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell, Dr Julian Lewis, Conor Burns and Richard Drax, presented a Bill to restrict the height, number, location and subsidies of wind turbines situated offshore within 20 miles of the coast.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 68.)
Employment Opportunities Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies and Mr Douglas Carswell, presented a Bill to introduce more freedom, flexibility and opportunity for those seeking employment in the public and private sectors; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 17 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 69.)
EU Membership (Audit of Costs and Benefits) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Peter Bone, on behalf of Mr Christopher Chope, supported by Mr Philip Hollobone, Mr Peter Bone, Mr David Nuttall, Philip Davies, Mr Douglas Carswell,
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Mr Graham Brady, Dr Julian Lewis, Martin Vickers, Adam Afriyie and Mr Stewart Jackson, presented a Bill to require an independent audit of the benefits and costs of UK membership of the European Union.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 5 July; and to be printed (Bill 70.)
Armed Forces (Prevention of Discrimination) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Thomas Docherty presented a Bill to provide that certain offences committed towards members of the armed forces shall be treated as aggravated; to prohibit discrimination against individuals in terms of provision of goods and services on the grounds that they are members of the armed forces; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 71.)
Train Companies (Minimum Fares) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Thomas Docherty presented a Bill to require train companies to offer customers the cheapest available fare as a first option; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 72.)
Lobbyists (Registration of Code of Conduct) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Thomas Docherty presented a Bill to establish a public register of organisations and individuals that carry out lobbying of Parliament, the Government and local authorities for financial gain; to introduce a code of conduct for those on the register; to introduce sanctions for non-registration and non-compliance with the code of conduct; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 73.)
International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Thomas Docherty presented a Bill to make provision about the meeting by the United Kingdom of the target for official development assistance (ODA) to constitute 0.7 per cent of gross national income; to make provision for independent verification that ODA is spent efficiently and effectively; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 74.)
Jobs Guarantee Scheme (Research) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Thomas Docherty presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to undertake a programme of research into a scheme designed to provide guaranteed employment for those aged 18 to 24 and those aged 25 and over who have been in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance for one year or for two years; to require the Secretary of State to report the results of the research to the House of Commons within six months of completion; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 75.)
24 Jun 2013 : Column 47
Specialist Printing Equipment and Materials (Offences) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Charlie Elphicke presented a Bill to make provision for an offence in respect of supplies of specialist printing equipment and related materials; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 5 July; and to be printed (Bill 76) with explanatory notes (Bill 76-EN).
Local Government (Review of Decisions) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Charlie Elphicke presented a Bill to make provision about the procedure for conducting investigations under Part 3 of the Local Government Act 1974; and to make provision for cases where an authority to which that Part applies takes a decision that affects the holding of an event for a reason relating to health or safety.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 6 September; and to be printed (Bill 77) with explanatory notes (Bill 77-EN).
Gangmasters Licensing Authority (Extension of Powers) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Andy Sawford presented a Bill to extend the powers of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority to enable it to regulate employment agencies in all sectors of the economy; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 78.)
Zero Hours Contracts Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Andy Sawford presented a Bill to prohibit the use of zero hours employment contracts.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2014; and to be printed (Bill 79.)
Football Governance Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Damian Collins, supported by Mr Gerry Sutcliffe, Mr John Whittingdale, Penny Mordaunt, Jim Sheridan, Mr Adrian Sanders and Philip Davies, presented a Bill to reform the governance of football in England to increase transparency and accountability; to ensure fair financial dealings between professional football clubs and their supporters; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 1 November; and to be printed (Bill 80.)
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Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill
[Relevant documents: The Second Report of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, Session 2012-13, Draft Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, HC 1003, and the Government response, Cm 8621.]
4.31 pm
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Unlike every other Northern Ireland Bill of recent years, the legislation before the House this afternoon is not being rushed through to resolve a crisis, to deal with security matters or to revive collapsed institutions. Today, we are considering a new kind of Bill for Northern Ireland: a Bill for more normal times—times in which Northern Ireland’s position as part of the United Kingdom is settled on the basis of consent; we have a stable and inclusive devolved Government at Stormont; and the focus is now very much on the politics of delivery.
Many of the measures in the Bill—in contrast to previous legislation—have been prepared in the light of public consultation, followed by pre-legislative scrutiny by the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs. I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and his Committee for the seriousness and diligence with which they approached their task of scrutinising this legislation. Several aspects of the Bill have been improved in response to their recommendations.
So the context for this Bill is much more stable than that for previous Northern Ireland-related legislation. Devolved government is well established and the Northern Ireland institutions have been running continuously since 2007. In May, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister published an ambitious programme to address sectarian divisions, including dismantling all peace walls within 10 years. Just 10 days ago, they, I and the Prime Minister signed a substantial economic pact to help Northern Ireland compete in the global race for jobs and investment. The agreement reflects the maturing relationship between the Government and the Executive, and it will see the two Administrations working more closely together than ever before on crucial issues such as business access to finance, improving infrastructure, and supporting research and development.
Of course, last week Northern Ireland also played host to the highly successful G8 summit—something that would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. The Prime Minister’s decision to bring the G8 to County Fermanagh could not have been more fully vindicated. Lough Erne provided a spectacular backdrop for the meeting of eight of the most powerful people in the world. The summit was a great opportunity to showcase the best of the new Northern Ireland, which is a great place to invest and a great place to visit. A highly effective policing operation delivered the most peaceful G8 that anyone can remember. Let me take this opportunity to thank the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partner agencies, including the Garda Siochana, for all their work in making that possible and for their continuing vigilance against the terrorist threat that remains so severe in Northern Ireland.
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The Bill makes a number of institutional changes. The measures do not reopen the political settlement enshrined in the Belfast agreement or its successors, but I believe they will improve the way that politics works in Northern Ireland in a number of significant ways. For example, the Bill will open the way for more transparency about political donations, it will modernise the way that elections are run and it will see an end to dual mandates in the Assembly and the House of Commons.
Let me take the points about transparency first. As the House may well be aware, Northern Ireland is subject to different transparency rules on political donation from the rest of the UK. The concern has always been that the publication of donor names could deter people from making political donations because of fear of violent reprisal. Let me be clear that the Government’s ultimate goal is full transparency, with the rules in Northern Ireland being brought into line with the rest of the UK but, having considered the matter carefully, we have concluded that the security situation has not improved sufficiently to enable us to do that and that it is not yet right to start publishing donor names.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking an intervention so early in her speech. The Secretary of State began with words with which no one could disagree. She said that the Bill is happening in more normal times in Northern Ireland; I could not agree more. She proceeded to talk about the G8 summit, which has been a huge success, and I thank her for expressing appreciation of the PSNI and the Garda Siochana. Will she take into account the fact that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want the anonymity of political donations to be removed and want transparency? What justification is there for keeping that anonymity in more normal times for Northern Ireland?
Mrs Villiers: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. I share the goal of those who want to see the extension of the GB regime to Northern Ireland, but, as I have said, I feel that the time is not right for that because the security situation has not improved enough since the rules were first devised. It is a pity, but the Bill will enable us to make progress towards the ultimate goal, which the hon. Lady and I both support.
Clauses 1 and 2 will enable us to make progress towards exactly the sort of normalisation that the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) wants to see. They will give the Government the power to use secondary legislation to increase transparency gradually, stage by stage. As a first stage, in response to the recommendations of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, we propose to move as swiftly as possible to the publication of draft secondary legislation, if the Bill passes all its parliamentary stages.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On the question of people being in support or not in support of greater transparency—we certainly support greater transparency—will the Secretary of State acknowledge that the Electoral Commission, as well as the Social Democratic and Labour party, preferred option 3 in the Government’s option paper? It said that there were
“concerns…about the risk of intimidation of donors which justified withholding identities”.
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This is not just a party political point; the independent Electoral Commission reached that conclusion, which is in line with the Government’s proposals.
Mrs Villiers: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for pointing that out. Indeed, the Electoral Commission has expressed support for a number of the provisions in the Bill. We have listened carefully to the commission in preparing the Bill, given the impact that the commission has on the running of elections and the mechanics of politics in Northern Ireland.
If the Bill passes all its stages, we envisage that secondary legislation will cover matters such as the number and amount of donations, the type of donor—that is, whether they are individual or business donors—the date of the donation and whether it came from an Irish source.
Clauses 3 to 5 are a key part of the Bill and will ban the holding of dual mandates in the Assembly and the House of Commons. That has been a matter of concern in Northern Ireland for some years and the committee formed prior to the 2006 St Andrews talks agreed that dual mandates should be phased out. Further concern was expressed during the MPs’ expenses crisis, including by the Committee on Standards in Public Life. Most important of all, an end to double-jobbing was an important commitment made in the 2010 Conservative manifesto for Northern Ireland. Clauses 3 and 5 will enable us to keep the promises we made to the electorate in 2010.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I fully support clause 3, but will the Secretary of State explain why she is making arrangements for Members of the House of Commons to be disqualified from membership of the Assembly, but not making similar arrangements for Members of the House of Lords? I know from personal experience that many Members of the House of Lords from Northern Ireland do an excellent job; the question is whether they can do that job and be Members of the Assembly. The Government have decided that Members of the House of Commons should not be Assembly Members; why is it okay for Members of the House of Lords?
Mrs Villiers: The right hon. Gentleman asks a fair question, and his position is supported by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. My hon. Friend the Minister of State and I reflected carefully on the matter and, in the end, we decided not to go down that route because we feel that the issues are simply not as strong in relation to the House of Lords. It has always been a different type of Chamber, where people are involved in alternative jobs and careers; there is not the same degree of public concern about dual mandates with the House of Lords; and the lack of a constituency and responsibilities for Members of the House of Lords also provides a reason to distinguish them from Members of the House of Commons. We will listen to the debates in this House and in the other place with an open mind, and if the Lords themselves wish us to act on this, of course we will consider their views carefully, but we believe that the focus of the legislation should be the key cause of concern in Northern Ireland, and that is dual mandates in the Assembly and the House of Commons.
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David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Surely there is a degree of hypocrisy when we have Members from one party who claim all the expenses they can get their hands on but who do not even attend this House?
Mrs Villiers: The Democratic Unionist party has strong views on these matters—[Hon. Members: “So did your party in your manifesto.”]—but they are not relevant to the Bill. No doubt hon. Members will have the opportunity to raise those concerns as the debate continues, and I am sure that, on a future occasion, the whole House will have the opportunity to express a view on the status quo regarding parliamentary allowances and what changes should be made.
Lady Hermon: Will the Secretary of State clarify, for the benefit of the whole House, whether Members of the Scottish Parliament and Members of the Welsh Assembly can also sit in the House of Lords? Is there a precedent that the Secretary of State is following, or are we just making it up as we go along for Northern Ireland?
Mrs Villiers: There is no legislative ban on Members of the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament being Members of the House of Lords. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales is seeking to introduce legislation on dual mandates in the Welsh Assembly and the House of Commons. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has not taken that step. We believe that there is a case for looking specifically at Northern Ireland, where this has arisen as a problem. The Committee on Standards in Public Life commented that the issue was particularly entrenched in relation to Northern Ireland; that is why it was the subject of the manifesto commitment relating to the Northern Ireland Assembly, but not other Assemblies.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): In her elaboration on the Bill’s provisions on dual mandates, the Secretary of State has not mentioned, alluded to or expanded on the cost implications of proceeding with ending dual mandates.
Mrs Villiers: No, I have not expounded on the cost implications, but I certainly do not believe that a ban on dual mandates in the Assembly and the House of Commons would add significantly to the cost of politics in Northern Ireland.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): The Secretary of State described dual mandates as a problem, but during the difficult years of the peace process it was absolutely essential that Members of the House who were in leadership positions took seats in the Assembly to help it through those initial years. It is therefore regrettable that she described it as a problem: it was part of the solution, in terms of moving Northern Ireland politics forward. Thankfully, we have moved on, but let us not look back and say that it was a bad thing.
Mrs Villiers:
I would certainly agree that there are a number of reasons why there were more dual mandates in relation to Northern Ireland than for other parts of the United Kingdom. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there may have been justified reasons for that at
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the time. However, things have moved on, and it is a greater sign of normalisation that, arguably, what might have been a need or justification in the past is no longer relevant today.
In response to a recommendation on double-jobbing from the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, the Bill bans double-jobbing in the Assembly and the lower House of the Irish Parliament to maintain parity. I am grateful to the Committee for highlighting that issue.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Will the Secretary of State comment on double-jobbing between the Northern Ireland Assembly and the House of Lords, and double-jobbing in the Northern Ireland Assembly and Seanad Eireann, the upper House to the Dail?
Mrs Villiers: As I have said, we do not see the same pressing issues applying in relation to double-jobbing with the House of Lords, and that applies equally to the upper House of the Irish Parliament.
Clause 6 will enable the Assembly to reduce the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly, subject to consent from Westminster. There is widespread acceptance that Northern Ireland has high numbers of elected representatives. Scotland, with a population of just over 5 million elects 129 MSPs, but Northern Ireland elects 108 MLAs to represent just 1.8 million people. While there were perhaps good reasons for that when the institutions were set up, we feel that the case has now been made for change.
As yet, there is no cross-party agreement on the appropriate size of the reduction in the number of MLAs, and I certainly hope that Northern Ireland’s political leadership can reach a settled view on this as soon as possible. In the meantime, the Bill moves things forward by enabling such a reduction to take place without further primary legislation. The Bill also contains a number of provisions allowing us to update the rules on electoral administration.
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Electoral registration rates in Northern Ireland are at something like 70%—the lowest they have ever been, and the lowest rate anywhere in the UK—after 10 years of individual electoral registration. Will the Secretary of State use the Bill to redress that imbalance, and what is her view of the fact that if 30% of the public are not on the electoral register, people do not have a functioning democracy?
Mrs Villiers: We have taken action outside the scope of the Bill to do the necessary work to update the content of the electoral register. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it needs to be updated, and we have set aside funding to enable that to take place over the coming months.
The Bill deals with issues such as performance standards for electoral registration officers; residence requirements for voting; the canvass form; and declarations by overseas voters. Clause 7 introduces five-year fixed terms for the Assembly from now on, and moves the date of the next Assembly election to 2016. When the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill was debated in 2010, concern was expressed that a general election in May 2015 would overshadow polls for the UK’s devolved Assemblies scheduled for the same day and cause voter confusion. The decision was taken to extend the terms of the
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Scottish Parliament and of the Welsh Assembly. Lord Wallace, speaking on behalf of the Government, indicated in the debate in the other House that the Government would consider a similar extension for the Northern Ireland Executive after consideration of the triple poll of May 2011. The Bill now brings the Northern Ireland institutions into line with the approach adopted for Scotland and Wales, avoiding the clash with the 2015 general election and making future clashes much less likely.
Clauses 8 and 9 give the Northern Ireland Justice Minister the same security of tenure as other Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive. This reflects cross-party negotiations that led to the agreement in the Assembly on the method for selecting a Justice Minister and that were part of the historic agreement on the devolution of policing and justice powers.
Clauses 10 to 12 would permit the devolution of certain arm’s length bodies without further primary legislation. These include the Human Rights Commission, the civil service commissioners and the district electoral areas commissioner. Before devolution could take place, though, there would need to be full consideration, a vote in the Assembly, and confirmation via secondary legislation approved by Parliament.
As well as consideration of these and other measures in the Bill, I am sure our debates will give us the opportunity to reflect on what the next steps for institutional change in Northern Ireland should be. The Government do not rule out more far-reaching changes to the institutions in the future, but any future reforms would have to be consistent with the principles of power sharing and inclusivity at the heart of the Belfast agreement, and they could go ahead only if they had cross-party and cross-communal agreement.
The perennial question for all institutions of government is how to improve delivery. A growing number of people think this could come about by facilitating the emergence of a formal Opposition within the Northern Ireland Assembly. Although MLAs of course provide regular and careful scrutiny of the Executive, the Government have been clear that they would like to see a more normal system emerge, which accommodates a Government and a formal Opposition. As yet the consensus that we would need in order to legislate has not been achieved, but I believe that the consultation that my predecessor ran last year on this has pushed the issue forward.
I welcome the fact that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee are now looking at steps that the Assembly itself might take in this field. I certainly encourage the larger parties to be generous towards parties that might consider that they could best serve the electorate by choosing to be in opposition, or that do not have sufficient strength in the Assembly for a seat at the Executive table. As parliamentarians we recognise the democratic value of challenge to our views, even where that can be uncomfortable. Innovation often comes from those who are prepared to take on the prevailing consensus.
In conclusion, it is a good thing that the Bill is not surrounded by the drama or the breakneck urgency of Northern Ireland Bills of the past. It offers an important set of changes, none the less. In pressing ahead with targeted improvements to the way politics works, I hope the Bill will play its part in helping to address the challenges faced by today’s Northern Ireland and its
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political leadership. Despite some welcome signs that the economy is beginning to heal, the economic climate remains difficult. As President Obama reminded us in his memorable address at the Waterfront hall in Belfast last week, there are many miles to go before Northern Ireland has the shared society we all want to see.
The President was introduced in Belfast by 16-year-old Hannah Nelson from Methodist college, Belfast. With great composure, she told the packed hall and the global media that
“we should not let the past pull us apart and stop us from moving forward…We need to listen to each other and we need to compromise. Most importantly, we need to clearly value each other. Peace is not easy and it takes a lot of work to make it happen.”
Her message is one that has resonated across Northern Ireland. Sectarian division carries great risks to progress on the economy, to security, and to the general well-being of Northern Ireland’s people. It profoundly influences how the world sees Northern Ireland, not least when the tensions that it causes on flags and parading spill out on to the streets. This debate and the Bill provide us with an opportunity in this House once again to pledge our support to the people of Northern Ireland and their political leadership in their continuing efforts to build a prosperous and united community of which all of us can be proud. I commend the Bill to the House.
4.54 pm
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): This is a remarkable time for Northern Ireland and a good time for the House to discuss the Bill. The coverage of President Obama’s visit to Belfast last week and the sight of world leaders attending the G8 summit in Fermanagh were powerful, moving and hugely uplifting. Some 2,000 young people from schools across Northern Ireland were reminded that the future belongs to them and that it is their attitude and decisions that will take us forward. The President’s words will serve to inspire those in the Waterfront hall and far beyond to make rhetoric a reality and to deliver progress for the next generation.
From a Northern Ireland perspective, the G8 summit was everything we had all hoped it would be. I again congratulate the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister on their work and their foresight in deciding to hold such a prestigious international event in County Fermanagh. Indeed, the Prime Minister told us last week that each of the world leaders commented on how incredible it was that such a summit could take place in Northern Ireland, and in the most tranquil and beautiful surroundings of Lough Erne.
Thanks to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, their colleagues from other police forces in the UK, and An Garda Siochana, the G8 met safely and securely and the accompanying protests took place peacefully and respectfully. The people of Northern Ireland and their representatives in this House and in Stormont can rightly be proud of what that showed the world last week. I know that everyone in this House and right across the United Kingdom and Ireland share that pride and that sense of success and achievement. It is in that context that we are discussing the Bill today and not, as was so often the case before, in a time of crisis.
Of course, as the Secretary of State suggested, and as Members know, there is more to come. We are halfway through Derry/Londonderry’s year as UK city of culture. I spent a great weekend there at the start of this month,
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visiting the newly developed Tower museum, which charts the city’s incredible history, the London street art gallery, which showcases the work of emerging artists, a moving exhibition showing images of Derry during the troubles and the new Shirt Factory art project. I also attended my first Ulster championship Gaelic football match, between Down and Derry, although my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will remind me that I did not bring the home team much luck.
Ms Ritchie: My hon. Friend’s visit brought greater luck to me, as MP for South Down, because Down won that day, but unfortunately they did not win yesterday against Donegal. I look forward to the day when they will do better through the back-door mechanism.
Vernon Coaker: I hesitate to get involved in discussions about Gaelic football fixtures, but my next remark was going to be that the result will have pleased my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie).
Everyone knows that challenges remain and that there remains much work to be done. The threat from dissident republican groups remains high, and those who seek to destroy the peace and progress are still intent on carrying out their murderous activities. It is only the bravery, dedication and skill of the police, army technical officers and the security services that have prevented the terrorists from succeeding. The loyalist flag protests have shown that there is still work to be done, so we cannot be complacent. I join the First and Deputy First Ministers, the Justice Minister and the Chief Constable in calling for a calm and peaceful summer.
It is in that context that we are considering the Bill today. Let me say something I have said many times before: the Opposition are committed to working with the Government in a bipartisan way where possible. When we believe that the Government are acting in the best interests of Northern Ireland, we will support them. When we disagree, we have a duty to challenge them and hold them to account.
I must say that in some respects I am disappointed with the Bill, not so much because of what is in it, but because of what is not. “Miscellaneous” suggests that all that is needed is some tidying up by Westminster and that it is a case of putting forward some minor amendments and small adjustments. Indeed, most of the Bill’s provisions have been discussed with the Northern Ireland parties and command general, if not universal, support. In principle, we support the ending of dual mandates, the extension of the Assembly’s term—temporarily and then permanently—giving security of tenure to the Justice Minister and devolving power on the size of the Assembly. We want to move to full transparency and accountability in political donations. Clearly, we will look at the detail of all the proposals in Committee, but by and large they make sense.
However, the Secretary of State will know that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee at Stormont is looking at the size of the Assembly, the number of Executive Departments, designation, the composition of the Executive, and provision for opposition. These are difficult and sensitive issues. The principles of power
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sharing and inclusivity are fundamental, but there is an acceptance that the system could be improved and there are demands for more accountability and more rigorous scrutiny of the Executive.
As a precursor to the Bill, the previous Secretary of State last year launched a review of the operation of the Assembly during a speech in which he criticised the Assembly and the Executive. I said at the time that that criticism was largely unwarranted and unnecessary and suggested that the Government work in partnership with the Executive and the Assembly to look at how they and the Northern Ireland Office could work more effectively, individually and collectively. To be fair to the current Secretary of State, she has taken an approach more in line with that thinking. However, I worry that in some respects she has gone too far the other way and has not engaged with some of the issues.
I have said before that devolution should not mean disengagement. The Bill gives the House a chance to put its views appropriately and constructively and I hope that, as the debate goes through the House, the Government will reflect on how they could take that opportunity.
In replying to the debate, will the Minister of State tell us what discussions he has had on the progress of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee’s work? Have the Government had any requests from that body or the Executive for the inclusion of measures that have not been included in the Bill? These are difficult and challenging areas and it will be hard to find agreement, but I sense from everywhere that there is an increasing desire to make progress a little more quickly—something, as I have said, that will undoubtedly be discussed in Committee in more detail.
Many other issues affect people in Northern Ireland, of course, and there is demand for politicians here and in Stormont to concentrate on building jobs and growth, tackling youth unemployment and creating opportunity. Of course, there are also the continuing challenges in health, education and welfare. Many of the decisions are devolved, but there is a role for the House to play in supporting the Executive as they seek to build peace, progress and prosperity.
The Government should also remember that they have a huge responsibility for economic and welfare decisions that affect people in Northern Ireland just as much as they do people in Gedling, Chipping Barnet or Hemel Hempstead. Is there nothing that the Bill could have contained that looked at the impact of Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Government’s economic and welfare policies on Northern Ireland, given the particular circumstances of a society emerging from conflict?
We know also that great strides have been taken to encourage business, tourism and economic progress. Indeed, later this week, alongside the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) in his capacity as Finance Minister, I am meeting a range of business organisations, including the Federation of Small Businesses, the Northern Ireland chambers of commerce, the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association and others, to take forward plans for a small business Saturday. We need to do all we can to help business and build prosperity in communities where there is a high level of economic inactivity and a lack of opportunities, which create such a sense of despair and hopelessness.
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Mrs Villiers: Perhaps I can provide the shadow Secretary of State with some reassurance. The proposals agreed in the economic package between the Executive and the Government are meant to complement the institutional changes in the Bill. We will work hard to deliver on those, including with a major G8-themed inward investment conference in October and, hopefully, the prompt extension of start-up loans to Northern Ireland, on which my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is making an announcement today.
Vernon Coaker: Obviously, we all hope that those measures are successful. As I have said, I thought the package announced by the Government a few days ago was a step in the right direction. However, I am talking about the sense of urgency needed to accelerate progress and saying that the Government here in London should recognise the huge impact that Treasury decisions have on Northern Ireland, which has particular circumstances as it emerges from conflict. The Secretary of State will know, from hon. Members here and representatives she meets in Northern Ireland, of the real concern about the impact in many communities of joblessness as well as the Government’s welfare changes, the impact of which the Government need to reflect carefully on.
Huge progress has been made on policing and justice. I welcome the changes made to ensure security of tenure for the Justice Minister. I encouraged the Government to legislate on that more than a year ago, and I am glad that the relevant measures are included in the Bill. David Ford, the current incumbent, does a good job in tough circumstances, and I pay tribute to him. Further to policing and justice, I will continue to raise the very serious issue of the National Crime Agency’s inability to operate in Northern Ireland.
Paul Goggins: I am pleased that my hon. Friend has raised that point. He said that the Bill contains measures that will clearly have broad support in all parts of the House. He is right, however, to argue with some urgency about the need to return to provisions in the Crime and Courts Act 2013 that are still not in operation, and have no likelihood of being so, in Northern Ireland. That is very good news for criminals and very bad news for the people of Northern Ireland.
Vernon Coaker: The fact that the National Crime Agency cannot operate in Northern Ireland as it does in the rest of the UK is a source of great regret to us all. I hope that as we go through the Bill we can look at ways in which we may continue to support the Secretary of State in putting pressure on the Home Secretary to work with the Northern Ireland Executive to get the legislative consent necessary for the agency’s remit to extend to Northern Ireland.
The Executive’s publication of their strategy on community sharing and integration is to be welcomed. However, that does not mean that there is no longer a role for Westminster and the Government to play in helping to build a shared future across Northern Ireland, with no community left behind. I would have liked the Bill to include a measure to consolidate the work of the Executive and, most importantly, of the thousands of individuals and organisations doing hugely important work to bring people together in friendship, understanding and co-operation.
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Some weeks ago I spoke to a group of students from Queen’s university and the university of Ulster. I was struck by their confidence, ability and experience. Let us be clear: these young people, aged 18, 19 and 20, were not untouched by sectarianism. I was genuinely surprised to hear from one very bright and articulate student that the first time she had, in any real sense, met someone from the other side was when she went to university. We have a duty to ensure that in future 18, 19 and 20-year-olds do not have to leave home to meet their neighbours.
The Bill contains provisions relating to arm’s length bodies such as the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which does important and valuable work. It would be helpful if the Secretary of State outlined what role she sees for it in future and shared her views on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.
On the electoral registration provisions, I add a note of caution. We need to get the balance right between ensuring that as many people as possible who are entitled to do so engage in our democratic process while protecting against the kind of electoral fraud that is an affront to that process.
In this Second Reading debate, the main point that I want to make to the Government is that they should reflect on whether anything more could be included in the Bill that would help to build peace, progress and prosperity in Northern Ireland. I am always glad, and often surprised, to learn how keen people in Northern Ireland are for us to visit to hear their stories and share in some of their experiences. Nowhere has this been more evident than in engaging with victims and survivors. It is always an incredibly humbling and emotional experience to speak with those who have lost loved ones. The heartbreaking stories that I have heard have moved and affected me greatly, as I am sure they have many others.
I have met dozens of victims and survivors, some with organisations, some individually, right across Northern Ireland. Some months ago I spent time with a woman whose two brothers had joined the Royal Ulster Constabulary together on the same day—a very proud one for her family. One of them was killed in a car bomb just a few months later, and just as she was beginning to recover from that, the other was killed in a mortar attack on a police station, 15 years after his brother. It devastated her and her family. I also met the mother of a young girl aged 12 who died in her father’s arms just yards from her home after being shot by a soldier. There was no explanation of or justification for either of those events.
These are very difficult and painful things to speak about, but we have had many difficult and painful conversations in Northern Ireland, and we need to have this one. Is there nothing we can propose in the Bill that would help this process and take it forward? The Government say that there is no consensus on the way forward and therefore no possibility of agreement. In essence, that it is to do with them. I fundamentally disagree, as Members will know. Dealing with the past—the legacy of the troubles—is expressly a responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office. It cannot act alone, of course, and I have consistently said that we need a comprehensive and inclusive process with victims and survivors at the centre. The last time we debated Northern Ireland on the Floor of the House, the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) asked me what I meant by that. I repeat today that the Government, in partnership
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with the Irish Government, have a duty to lead, but not to prescribe. They must create a vehicle through which these issues can be discussed and resolved. Of course, that will take time and it will not be easy, but the prize will be worth it. Victims and survivors are not afraid to talk about the past; the Governments should not be either.
Just last week, I went to St Ethelburga’s church, which was blown up by the IRA in the Bishopsgate bombing in 1993, where I saw the Theatre of Witness production, “From the Rubble”. It was an incredibly powerful performance that bore witness to the wounds of the past, which are still visible to many in Northern Ireland. The performers were not acting, but telling their own real stories. One said that we need to have an eye on the future, as well as an eye on the past. We cannot ignore the past, but we must not be trapped by it either.
That is why I am saddened that the Government cannot find a way in the Bill to allow the issues of the past to be discussed and addressed, so that consensus may emerge. The legacy of the past has to be dealt with and the Government must consider the impact that it has on the victims, the survivors and everyone in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Donaldson: I thank the Opposition spokesman for his moving words, for his genuine concern for the victims of the terrorist campaigns in Northern Ireland and for the time he has taken to meet many of the victims. He speaks of the British and Irish Governments taking the lead. Does he accept that it is not just a matter of taking the lead? We have heard a lot from our Government by way of apology and inquiry, but precious little from the Irish Government, despite the evidence that Irish Ministers were involved in arming the IRA at the beginning of the troubles and the growing evidence of collusion between Irish state forces and paramilitary organisations. If the Irish Government are to take a lead, they need to accept that they too have a responsibility to acknowledge the wrongdoing of the past.
Vernon Coaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks about me. I appreciate them when we are discussing such a sensitive matter. I say to him that everyone needs to be involved in the process of coming to an understanding of what happened and of how we can move forward.
Westminster still matters to Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland must matter to Westminster. The Bill gives the House of Commons the chance to demonstrate that through our deliberations. The UK Government should work ever closer with the devolved Administration to do the best that they can for Northern Ireland and its people. The key message from the peace process that we should share with the world is that an end to conflict is only the start of the peace. Along with the Irish Government, and with the support of the European Union and the United States Administration, we must continue to provide support and encouragement as Northern Ireland continues to move forward. That is our responsibility, that is our role and that is how we will build peace, progress and prosperity in every community in Northern Ireland.
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5.13 pm
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I thank the Government for putting the Bill out to pre-legislative scrutiny. Analysing it was an interesting task for the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. I thank the Secretary of State and Minister of State for taking on board a number of our recommendations and for considering the other points that we made. I thank all members of the Committee, many of whom are present in the Chamber, for their hard work and for the benefit of their experience, particularly of those who are from Northern Ireland.
I do not want to single out one political party that gave evidence to the Committee, but it demonstrates the considerable extent to which things have moved on in Northern Ireland that the formal evidence session that we held in Belfast with Sinn Fein was, as I understand it, the first time that that political party had given public evidence to a Committee of the House of Commons. I think that is a significant step forward. I thank all the witnesses who gave evidence to the Committee in Belfast and in Westminster. As those on the Front Benches have said, things in Northern Ireland have moved on enormously.
Mr Gregory Campbell: The hon. Gentleman rightly alludes to progress, with members of Sinn Fein giving evidence to the Committee. Does he agree that that is a good and significant step forward, and certainly beats impeding police officers in the course of their duty in Belfast at the weekend during an Orange Order parade?
Mr Robertson: I agree entirely. It is sometimes a case of two steps forward and one step back. I was in Belfast this morning and the newspapers were full of that incident in which a person was injured. Two weeks ago, members of the Committee visited Washington and spoke to a number of people. There was an overwhelming feeling that much had been sorted out in Northern Ireland, but the incident at the weekend, flag protests and the murder of Mr David Black last November do nothing to attract investment. They deter investment, and that is a tragedy. I hope we can move forward more smoothly.
We made a great deal of progress in attracting Sinn Fein to give evidence to the Committee. I would go further and say, as we did at the time, that it is time that members of that party took their seats in this Parliament so that they can come and make their case here. They claim they do the job anyway, but they do not. They do a job, but they do not do the job of parliamentarians, even though they accept the expenses and allowances that go with it. We ought to be able to move forward a little more in that respect.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am sure the hon. Gentleman shares the concern of many of us on these Benches and in the Province that the onus is on elected representatives not only to obey the law, but to do so in public. What we saw at the weekend was a travesty of the law: two elected representatives, one of whom sits on the policing board, clearly flouted the law. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that there is an onus on elected representatives from Sinn Fein to be more observant of the law?
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Mr Robertson: Everybody has to observe the law. The law cannot be applied differently to different people, regardless of who they purport to represent, so I do not disagree with a word the hon. Gentleman has said.
We are in a better place than we were. As the Secretary of State said, it is a welcome change to be considering legislation relating to Northern Ireland that is not a desperately urgent response to a terrible incident. On at least a couple of occasions while I have been a Member, the House has been recalled during the recess to consider such a matter urgently. It is right to move things forward in a more measured way if possible. The Committee looked at the Bill in great detail and supports much of what it proposes. I will discuss three or four issues in my speech, which will be fairly brief.
On donations, the Committee welcomes the move towards normalisation. The objective has to be to move Northern Ireland towards being a normal society and a normal democracy. We have some way to go, but we are slowly getting there. We felt that we ought to move quickly from October 2014 to full publication of who has made donations. We understand that there is a security issue. A number of witnesses and members of the Committee said that there is a risk for people who stand for Parliament, Assembly or council; for those who support them by delivering leaflets, canvassing or putting up posters; and for those who sign nomination papers. The question was whether donating money constitutes a different risk. We were not persuaded that it does, so we want to see greater progress on the publication of donations.
We said, though, that those decisions had to be taken in the light of the security situation. We wanted the Bill to state that the Secretary of State should consult the respective security services before taking such a decision, but she has decided not to include that. I mention that because although we recognise that there are problems, in principle we want to move towards a more normal politics in Northern Ireland in which there is less suspicion, and if everything is out in the open, surely that is a better way forward than the way we have been going so far. We also insisted, however, that anyone or any organisation that made donations prior to the change or notification that those donations would become public should remain anonymous, because when they gave those donations, they depended on that anonymity.
We support the ending of dual mandates. In fact, we would go further, as has been alluded to already. We think that Members of the Assembly should not also be Members of the House of Lords, the European Parliament or the Senate in the Republic of Ireland. I understand fully the points made by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson), who has left the Chamber momentarily, about how important it was at the time for experienced politicians to take the peace process forward in Northern Ireland—that was certainly essential —but we have moved on. Before the Assembly was restarted, many decisions about Northern Ireland were taken upstairs in Committee by statutory instrument, which was a very unsatisfactory way of governing Northern Ireland.
As Conservative Front-Bench spokesperson, I attended many of those sessions. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) was often the Minister. Because many Northern Ireland Members had the additional burden of advancing the peace process in their constituencies, many were the times when, through
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no fault of their own, not a single one of them could attend, and these were Committees deciding very important things for Northern Ireland. It was very unsatisfactory, but we have moved on, and people cannot be in two places at once. There is also the potential for a conflict of interest if somebody sits on two legislative bodies. We would have gone further than the Government, and we would also apply the same rules to Scotland and Wales, although I think that Wales is moving in that direction anyway.
The Select Committee welcomed the changes to the appointment and tenure of the Justice Minister—we feel that the Ministry should be more secure—and the fact that taking the position will count against the number of Ministries a party can hold, but we are a little concerned about what will happen if agreement cannot be reached. We urge the Government to seek a way forward when that happens. Could the Justice Minister be appointed another way without bringing everything down? The appointment of the Justice Minister under a d’Hondt system might be possible, although I understand the sensitivities around that. Nevertheless, we identified that as a potential problem; it has not happened, and I hope it never will, but there is a potential problem.
We disagreed with the Government over delaying the next Assembly elections to 2016. We think that people in Northern Ireland are perfectly capable of voting in two or even three elections, where necessary, and who is to say that the general election will be held in May 2015? We have legislated for it—although I voted against it—but who is to say that the coalition will last that long? It might do, but who is to say that elections will come in neat five-year terms after that? It might be the case, but it might not, so we did not see the need to change that arrangement, although we accepted that it was not necessarily the main part of the Bill.
We held many discussions about government and opposition, and a number of witnesses said that they wanted to see an opposition developing in Northern Ireland. I think I am representing the Committee’s views accurately here, but it is certainly my own view that we have to allow the politicians and the people of Northern Ireland to come forward with their own proposals and solutions to the situation. The Assembly was created in the way it was for a reason, and we all know what that reason was. We must bear in mind the Good Friday agreement requirements for a shared future, and it is difficult to come up with a solution to the problem. We recognise that there is an issue, but we feel that the solution ought to be home grown and brought to this House in the form of a proposal.
We hold a similar view on the size of the Assembly. This is not so much about the fact that 108 Assembly Members represent 1.8 million people; it is more about the fact that there are six Members of the Assembly for every Westminster constituency. Again, we know why that was done—it made the maths easier at the time—but things can move on. We should not throw away the principles of the Belfast agreement, but I do not see why we cannot, with consent, move forward on certain aspects of it.
That is a collection of some of the Select Committee’s thoughts. I should like to thank all the members of the Committee for their work and for their proposals, and to thank the Government for listening to what we have had to say. I wish the Bill well.
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5.26 pm
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I join others in welcoming the Bill. It has had a long gestation period, and the previous Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who is now the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, heralded it as a normalisation Bill. We heard about the Bill in many meetings with him and others at the Northern Ireland Office, and we were led to believe that it would contain all sorts of wonderful, amazing things for Northern Ireland. Yes, it represents progress, but it is certainly not as far-reaching as was originally envisaged. It is certainly not as ambitious as the then Secretary of State suggested when he became the holder of that office.
The then Secretary of State said many other things, too, and I shall deal with those in a moment. One such matter was allowances for Sinn Fein Members. We have talked about dual mandates, but the issues of non-representation and the non-fulfilment of mandates are equally important. The right hon. Gentleman promised that not a single Conservative Member in this new Parliament would dream of sustaining the position whereby Members who did not take their seats could claim money and expenses. I hope that the House will shortly have an opportunity to consider that matter further.
I welcome the fact that we are debating the Bill at a time when there is no crisis in Northern Ireland relating to the Assembly or the Executive. On many occasions, we have had to debate all the stages of a Bill in one day to deal with the suspension of the Assembly, with some other crisis, or with its reinstatement. Thankfully, those days have gone and we now have relative stability. Indeed, we take that stability for granted. The very fact that we are debating an extension of the current Assembly’s term for another year, and fixed terms of five years thereafter, is in indication of the progress that has been made. Who would have previously imagined that we would be discussing these proposals here today? People would have said that we were living in fantasy land if they had been suggested before. Previous Assemblies did not have this kind of stability, and even the current one that was set up under the 1998 legislation did not have it until 2007. So we have a lot to be grateful for, and we should reflect on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, but we should not take it for granted. We must remember that there is still work to be done to ensure that that stability continues.
The Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State have mentioned that we are debating these matters against the background of a propitious event. The hosting of the G8 summit by Northern Ireland was enormously successful, and tribute has rightly been paid to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the security forces in the Irish Republic and to the help given by other British police and security services. We have had great news, too, in recent days with announcements of significant numbers of fantastic, good-quality, high-value jobs for Northern Ireland. All those announcements are highly significant. As has also been pointed out, however, major challenges remain despite the progress that has been made. The challenge posed by dissident terrorists and other republican groups is significant. The police and security services deserve all our gratitude and our support—given in material ways—to make sure that they are ready, able and fit to combat that threat.
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It is also crucial that the political parties in Northern Ireland’s civic society continue to give their full support to policing, the courts and the rule of law. One deeply disturbing issue already alluded to in this debate is the selective approach to policing that we have seen in recent months from Sinn Fein. We have seen its members picketing outside police headquarters when certain people are arrested, protesting against certain investigations and now we have seen the incident mentioned by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chairman of the Select Committee, and others, in which a Sinn Fein Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive and a Sinn Fein member of the Policing Board, Gerry Kelly, were both seen openly obstructing police and clambering on police vehicles at a peaceful parade held in my Belfast North constituency last Friday.
Clearly, there is outrage at this loutish and hooligan behaviour. It is not the job of Assembly Members, elected representatives or members of the Policing Board to interfere in that way in the conduct of police operational matters. Holding the police to account is not, as Gerry Kelly seems to think, a question of clambering on a police vehicle and trying to stop an arrest. It is about doing the job of being a member of the Policing Board by asking questions or coming to this House, if elected to it, and asking questions; it is not about vandalism or the loutish behaviour and hooliganism that we have seen. I have written to the Chief Constable today to ask what action he is going to take to investigate fully and ensure that action is taken against those who engage in this kind of provocative behaviour, which could have resulted in serious trouble. As we saw on the night, these actions led to others getting involved in attacking the police vehicle. There are challenges that we in Northern Ireland face.
Let me move on to the details of the Bill. It does not go as far as was first envisaged, but significant progress has been made on donations, dual mandates, the removal of some powers from the excepted category to the reserved category, and justice powers. I shall deal with each of those briefly in turn.
The issue of political donations and loans falls into three main areas: transparency of donors, the timetable for moving to full transparency and—this is an issue that the Secretary of State only glanced over—an anomaly that will remain, despite the Bill, in that donations will still be able to be made to Northern Ireland parties from individuals and bodies outside the United Kingdom.
This party supports in principle having as much transparency as possible when it comes to donations. There have obviously been good reasons in Northern Ireland for granting exceptions to the rules that apply to parties in the rest of the United Kingdom. Evidence about the security situation presented to the Select Committee in its investigation of this Bill cannot be set to one side. That evidence has come from not just the Unionist side, but the nationalist side and, as I mentioned in my intervention on the Secretary of State, the independent Electoral Commission. It shows that many brave individuals and businesses stepped forward during the darkest of days to make donations. They took great personal and corporate risks coming forward with donations, and their main concern was rightly—there is evidence that when the donations were discovered, these things did happen—that they would suffer personal loss, a downturn in trade and, in some cases, even physical attack. The
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intimidation was a real threat and was certainly a clear attempt to silence people and prevent them from participating in the democratic process.
As we in Northern Ireland move forward and put the violence of the past behind us, it is right and proper that we move towards a system of donations and loans that is similar to that used in the rest of the United Kingdom. That should apply not only to transparency issues, but to all aspects of donations, such as who can donate. From 2014 onwards, why should there be any exceptions at all?
We support the commitment in the Bill not to publish retrospectively the names of past donors. Any future reform must safeguard the trust that people in the past have placed in the system, to protect them, their families and their businesses from disclosure.
Lady Hermon: On transparency of political donations, I agree that donors to any political party were under real and significant threat in the past, but in the present changed circumstances in Northern Ireland that we enjoy by and large—thank goodness—will the right hon. Gentleman say, without disclosing their identities and breaching confidentiality, whether it is tens, dozens or one or two donors to the Democratic Unionist party who currently feel threatened by violence?
Mr Dodds: I can do no better than to quote the leader of my party and First Minister of Northern Ireland, who, as stated in the House of Commons Library research paper, shared the concerns of other parties, including the Ulster Unionists, in saying in evidence to the Select Committee:
“In the past, businesses and businesses were attacked because of their association either with security forces or with one section of the community. You cannot be cavalier about these issues because they are real. Even if it did not happen, there would certainly be the perception among those who might be willing to donate that it could.”
I will go even further and quote the leader of the SDLP, the hon. Member for South Down—[Hon. Members: “South Belfast.”] I apologise to both the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), the leader of the SDLP, who said in evidence to the Select Committee—I know he is more than capable of speaking for himself—that
“we feel that we were particularly vulnerable…in that some of our donors felt vulnerable and threatened…Sometimes the threat is not even direct, but people are put under pressure and told, ‘You gave the SDLP £1,000 this week; we think that we are entitled to £2,000 this week’. The threat is at that level. In a situation in which there are still a handful of people moving about with guns, that threat is there.”
I agree with the leader of the SDLP, with the leader of my party and with the Government, who have got this issue right. The Electoral Commission—an independent, not party political, body—also expressed such concerns.
I also fully endorse the recommendation of the Select Committee that the clause should be amended so as to provide that the Electoral Commission in future—from 2014 onwards, not going backwards—can disclose donor identity only where there is express consent from the donor; under the Bill as currently worded, such information can be published where there are “reasonable grounds” to believe that there was consent.
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On the timetable for moving to transparency, I listened to what the Secretary of State has said: the Bill does not implement any provision, but simply gives the power to the Secretary of State to bring forward legislation in future for achieving greater transparency. At that point, a strong degree of caution and common sense will still need to be exercised because of the continued dissident threat to which we have referred.
The Bill states that the Electoral Commission must be consulted, but—with due respect to the commission—I think that there should also be consultation with the security forces and with the police in particular, and also with the political parties in Northern Ireland. I would be grateful for the Secretary of State’s assurance that this will not simply involve the thoughts and minds of the Electoral Commission, and that there will be a much wider consultation.
Mrs Villiers: I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. Of course it would be very important to consult the Police Service of Northern Ireland and others with knowledge of the security situation, but when proceeding with any transparency arrangements, we would want to consult widely with others, including the political parties.
Mr Dodds: I am grateful for that undertaking. In Committee, we may return to the question of how the Bill might reflect it more clearly.
Let me now turn to the issue of donations made by individuals and bodies outside the United Kingdom. The Select Committee made the welcome recommendation that the loophole represented by an anomaly, or special provision, should be closed. We will, of course, examine the issue in more detail during the Bill’s Committee stage.
Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, political parties registered in Great Britain are permitted to accept donations only from UK residents and bodies. The Act extends to parties in Northern Ireland, but parties registered there may accept donations from citizens and bodies in the Irish Republic. Why was the Act brought into being? It was brought into being so that the public—the people who send us to this place—could have some degree of certainty that those who gave money to political parties had a stake in this country, and in affairs of state here. They did not want political parties to be flooded with money from people in the United States, Europe and elsewhere who had interests in the making of certain decisions, but who did not vote here, represent anyone here, or have any stake in this country other than, for instance, a commercial stake. The Act was introduced for very good reasons, yet an exception was made in the case of Northern Ireland.
Individuals and bodies in the Republic of Ireland can donate to parties in Northern Ireland in a way that contravenes the law of that country. Worse still, however, owing to our inability to regulate donations of this kind, those individuals and bodies can be used as a front for donations from other foreign or overseas countries. The Select Committee’s recognition of that problem led it rightly to recommend that the anomaly be removed.
Here we all are, saying that Northern Ireland should be subject to the same level of transparency in respect of donations and identity as every other part of the
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United Kingdom. We ask “Why should Northern Ireland be any different?” But why should Northern Ireland be any different when it comes to who can donate to political parties? There is no reason at all why it should. I hope that, as we consider the Bill further in the House and in Committee, Members and, in particular, the Government will look afresh at the issue. If the Government fail to close this loophole, they may rightly stand accused of giving preferential treatment to certain political parties for political reasons.
Whatever the causes for the arguments of the past, those reasons certainly do not exist today. There should be a level playing field for all political parties in Northern Ireland. There should be the same rules for all of them, and there should be the same benefits, if possible, in terms of donations for all political parties. This anomaly was introduced for one reason: to allow Sinn Fein, and other nationalists, to get money from America, channelled into Northern Ireland via the Irish Republic. That is why this was implemented. That is the reason it was allowed, and if it is allowed to continue, that will be an indictment of this House, particularly at a time when people are so concerned about the funding of political parties.
We support the provision to extend the term of the Assembly to 2016. We disagree with the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), on that point, but not because we think people in Northern Ireland will not be able to understand voting in different elections on the same day. Northern Ireland’s citizens have a long and admirable track record of being able not only to vote in different elections on the same day, but to use different electoral systems, and to do so very successfully. The terrible outcome in Scotland recently, when there was a dual election that led to thousands of spoiled ballot papers, has never happened to the same degree in Northern Ireland.
We wanted the extension of the Northern Ireland Assembly term because it has been extended in Scotland and in Wales. In both those jurisdictions, there is now a five-year fixed term. I welcome the fact that today, in this Bill, Northern Ireland, as part of the United Kingdom, is being treated like Scotland, Wales and the other parts of the United Kingdom—and quite right too, as there is no logic whatever in saying we should be treated differently. It means that, as the Secretary of State has said, when there is an Assembly election, Assembly issues will be to the fore, and when there is a Westminster election, the issues affecting this House and Westminster representation will be debated, and there will be no confusion of the two sets of issues. That is very important.
Mr Laurence Robertson: There are, of course, two issues here: one is whether this particular Assembly term should be extended, and then whether we should move to five-year terms. The right hon. Gentleman puts a logical case for having five-year terms, but surely the Assembly did not need to be extended in this term. I think that was probably the more important point we were making.
Mr Dodds:
Actually, the reason for that is the fact that, given the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2012, we will have a clash in May 2015. That is what makes it
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imperative that action is taken in this Parliament. The dates of the Scottish parliamentary and Welsh Assembly elections were moved for precisely that reason. If we do not take action, in two years’ time there will be elections on the same day for Parliament and in Northern Ireland. That is why this measure has been brought forward.
Lady Hermon: May I preface my remarks by saying it is wonderful to see the right hon. Gentleman back on great form? I might not agree with half of what he is saying, but I am delighted to see him, as a great parliamentarian, back and on great form.
May I make an imaginary journey forward to 2016, when we will—unfortunately, from my perspective—have an Assembly election? The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues will be well aware of the fact that the Easter of 2016 will be celebrated, and that could be very divisive, as that Easter marks the centenary of a significant event. Does the right hon. Gentleman have concerns—and I do just mean concerns—about that being exploited by a particular party in Northern Ireland to its advantage?
Mr Dodds: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her very kind remarks. It is great to be back, and there is no better occasion to be back for than this debate on the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. It is a great Bill and reminds me why I entered politics in the first place.
I understand where the hon. Lady is coming from, but I cannot agree with her. The Easter rising centenary will be commemorated in 2016, but the Unionist perspective will be, “100 years on and still no united Ireland”. One hundred years on from the Easter rising and Ulster—Northern Ireland—is more firmly part of the United Kingdom than it has ever been.
Lady Hermon: Aren’t you glad I asked that?
Mr Dodds: I am absolutely delighted that the hon. Lady asked that question. I look forward to her, like me, celebrating in 2016 and also commemorating another significant historic event in Northern Ireland—the anniversary of the Somme—on 1 July, as so many Ulster men gave their lives on the first day of that enormous battle. There will be many commemorations, centenaries and anniversaries affecting Northern Ireland in 2016 and the coming years, so I understand what she is saying. Although I do not agree with her on that point, I am sure she will respect my view on the issue.
Let me deal briefly with the change in the size of the Northern Ireland Assembly. As the Secretary of State has said, the powers will change from being in an excepted category to being in the reserved category. The Northern Ireland Assembly will, thus, be able to legislate, with the consent of the Westminster Parliament, and that is right and proper. We believe that there should be more such provisions, making it easier for the Northern Ireland Assembly to legislate in other areas, such as its working, the make-up of the Executive and how they are formed. Of course, this should be done on a cross-community basis and as a result of negotiation, agreement and a cross-community vote, but it would send a strong signal that more of those powers are for the people and parties in Northern Ireland to agree.
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Of course, Northern Ireland is over-represented, but we have 108 Members because the parties that supported the Belfast agreement in 1998 wanted the Assembly to be that big. We opposed that, for the reasons of over-representation that many Members are now talking about. The choice of six Members per constituency was a blatant attempt, once again, to get smaller parties that were, at that stage, in favour of the Belfast agreement into the Assembly at the expense of others. It did not work out that way because the Northern Ireland electorate had much greater common sense, voting for parties that would fight for change and reform, and for a better way forward. We achieved that, which is why we have the stability we have had since 2007.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I wish to add a little information and insight. When strand 1 was negotiated, the agreement between the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Ulster Unionist party on that holy Thursday night or early hours of Good Friday was for a 90-Member Assembly based on five-seat constituencies. What we disagreed on was whether there should also be a top-up, in either the first Assembly or, possibly, the first and second Assemblies, of an additional 10 Members that could account for smaller parties that might be under-represented because of the spread of the vote. That idea was not agreed by the UUP and, in the absence of agreement between us, Tony Blair stipulated it had to be six-Member constituencies—108 Members. None of the Northern Ireland parties proposed that.
Mr Dodds: I think I am grateful for that explanation. Two things come out of it that are clear. First, the SDLP and the UUP still wanted a significantly larger Assembly, with more than 100 Members, no matter the form of the electoral process. [Interruption.] Certainly, initially—
Mr Dodds: Ninety, plus, as I understand it, a further top-up, which would bring the figure to 100. So they wanted a significantly larger Assembly than the one we want to see nowadays. The second thing we learned from the hon. Gentleman’s contribution was, once again, how much in debt we are to Tony Blair for so much in the political process, both here and in Northern Ireland! Whoever speaks for Labour will doubtless want to defend what Tony Blair did in that regard.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): Does the right hon. Gentleman also feel that John Major played a significant part in the whole process, kicking it off in the first place?
Mr Dodds: I was not getting into the issue of credit for the peace process as a whole; I was only making reference to Tony Blair’s contribution to having a bloated Assembly in Northern Ireland. I do not think that John Major would want to be associated with that. I gladly pay tribute to John Major and others on both sides who have played a significant role in the peace process. I am glad to put that on the record.
With no difference between the views of the political parties in Northern Ireland, most of its parties are on the record as supporting a reduction in the size of the Assembly. The DUP, the Alliance party, the UUP, the
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SDLP and many independent Members are in favour, but Sinn Fein is not. Let us be clear that the reason we are not getting this reduction is not because the Assembly Members all want to keep their positions and the parties all want to keep the same numbers; it is because one party, Sinn Fein, refuses to accept that, in this day and age so many years on from the 1998 agreement and St Andrews, there is no need to have 108 Members any more. Let us put the focus squarely where it belongs, just as we need to do with the “blame”, if I may put it like that, for the national security issues. Again, they are the result of one or two parties in Northern Ireland taking a particular stand.
On the issue of dual mandates, our position is clear: they are being phased out. The Bill does not bring an end to dual mandates; the political parties in Northern Ireland are bringing an end to them. We in the DUP are certainly doing that. We made a commitment that by 2015 they would be phased out, in line with the recommendations made by the independent body—I cannot remember its name, because we had so many of these bodies at one time. That was what was said should be done, we committed to it and it is what we are doing. The Bill’s provisions outlawing dual mandates should apply to Scotland and Wales as well. I am glad to hear that the Welsh First Minister is introducing such proposals, but they should also apply to Scotland—Northern Ireland should not be unique in this regard.
The issue of non-representation also needs to be addressed. I alluded to it at the start of my remarks and I will close with it. Although it is not a matter for legislation, it is a matter for the resolution of this House—it is a House of Commons issue. It is a scandal that there are Members elected to this House who do not do their jobs and do not carry out parliamentary activity but get expenses, allowances and money, and not just to carry out their constituency duties—through representative money they get money to campaign. The rest of us are bound by the rules of this House and are rightly accountable for our expenditure for parliamentary purposes, but these people can spend this money for party political purposes and not a word is asked about it.
That special provision was brought in, again, under Tony Blair’s premiership. The then Secretary of State, John Reid, brought it in. It was opposed by the then Conservative Opposition, as it had been by the previous Speaker, Betty Boothroyd, and others. Sinn Fein had challenged all the way to the courts—European Courts—and had been defeated, but it was introduced as a special concession because it was argued at that time that it was necessary to bring Sinn Fein into the political process. If anyone can argue today that Sinn Fein is not in the political process, I would find it staggering. The time has now come for the House to address this issue. If we are concerned about dual mandates and about people being in two places at once, we cannot ignore the glaring issue about non-representation and a special status given to Members who do not attend. Their arrangement is actually advantageous and better than the position given to Members who do take their seats.
Mark Durkan:
It is not often that I stand up to defend the former Secretary of State John Reid from criticism about his time in Northern Ireland but the measure on Opposition party money and the special
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terms given to Sinn Fein was actually introduced by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) when he was Secretary of State. He said that it was a necessary measure for the peace process. He refused to answer when asked what promise or threat made it so necessary, but confirmed that Sinn Fein could use the money for entirely different purposes from anybody else.
Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to point out the glaring discrepancy in accountability arrangements for this money. That is not tolerable, because all the political parties that take their seats in this House are at a disadvantage compared with Members who do not take their seats and who can use the representative money for whatever they like.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is ironic that somebody like me, as the sole Member from a party, has no access to such money whereas multiple Members of another party who never turn up to this place to do the work they are elected to do have access to it for policy support and development?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has been making his comeback with an amazing tour de force and has been very generous in giving way, but I gently point out that he has now been speaking for 34 minutes and quite a few of his colleagues wish to speak as well. As much as we are enjoying his speech, I am sure that he is going to give us his final words about his views on the Bill.
Mr Dodds: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I have had so many weeks to ponder and consider the contents of the Bill in relative peace and quiet that I have become carried away. I agree with the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). Following your injunction, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will not go into detail on the various issues to do with the changes to the rules of court, sharing biometric data, equality and so on—not that I had very much to say about them.
The Bill is relatively modest, but it is significant in the context in which it has been introduced. It is significant in that it moves things forward in Northern Ireland, which is important because when all else is stripped away, the most important thing for those of us who represent the Province here in this House of Commons is to keep Northern Ireland moving forward.
6.2 pm
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Just this morning, pupils from All Saints’ Church of England primary school in Trysull visited me and asked me what I was doing this afternoon, and I explained that I hoped to speak on the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) will be shocked to hear that they had not heard of it, but I informed them of the detail. I should say how well behaved they were and what a pleasure it was to have them visit Parliament.
I had the great privilege of serving as Parliamentary Private Secretary to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire) when he was in the Northern
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Ireland Office, and I remember how often the Bill, what it would contain and what it would deliver would be mentioned in our discussions. It is satisfying to see so much of what was discussed in the Bill and to see progress being made. Opposition Members have said that they would have liked to see more, but it is heartening to see how much can be welcomed by Members on both sides of the House.
It was 10 years ago that I started travelling regularly to Northern Ireland to work. Even in those 10 years, one saw an enormous difference in politics, economics and stability in Northern Ireland. I must confess that the Ulster fries were as good then as they are today—
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): There is not much sign of that!
Gavin Williamson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and will draw Mrs Williamson’s attention to them. I hope she appreciates that.
What has happened in the past 10 years—stability, progress—is remarkable, but what has happened in the past 20 years is even more remarkable. As has been mentioned, the Bill is about the progress that has been made and about supporting future progress.
The G8 was held in County Fermanagh. I remember visiting Lough Erne many times and seeing the beauty of it, and the whole world saw the beauty of Lough Erne. I am sure that that will be an enormous boost to tourism in Northern Ireland. Derry/Londonderry was city of culture last year. So much is happening and there is so much of which to feel proud.
We have touched on the issue of political donations, and most of my constituents, if they did not understand the context of what Northern Ireland had been through, would find it odd if political donations were not declared. The proposals made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State are sensible; they show a clear understanding of the problems we have had in Northern Ireland but take a gradualist approach that will ensure that we are open and transparent. The Electoral Commission’s polling has shown that 62% of people support more transparency and only 7% are happy with the status quo. We should welcome the fact that people feel that transparency about political donations is acceptable and that Northern Ireland is ready to see a greater level of it.
The right hon. Member for Belfast North made an important point about foreign donations from the Republic of Ireland. As we have discovered over the past few months, every multinational company has a base in the Republic of Ireland. In fact, nowadays it is more unusual for a multinational company not to have a base there. I hope that that can be considered, but the progress and the direction of travel are to be welcomed. They are what we need to see and they will build greater confidence in the political process and the political parties of Northern Ireland among all those who take part.
The Whip will have to make a note of this, but I am tempted to vote against the idea of ending double-jobbing. It is saddening to see that so many wonderful characters—great parliamentarians—might no longer be with us, but despite our sad loss if they decide to stay in Stormont I recognise that we need to deliver that proposal. We promised to deliver it in our manifesto and, as we have already heard from Northern Ireland Members, it is
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something on which they are ready to see progress. They are already delivering it in their political parties. Having such a provision in the Bill is an important element of building the confidence of people in Northern Ireland in the political process. I welcome it, and I am sure that all Members of this House will, too.
The idea of reducing the number of representatives in the Legislative Assembly should also be welcomed as there is massive over-representation. I accept that Staffordshire has a slightly smaller population than Northern Ireland, by 0.6 million—we have a population of only 1.1 million—but I find it hard to justify such over-representation in the Northern Ireland Assembly, with 108 Members, to my electorate. I am sure that a sensible number can be reached, to which all parties can agree. We should perhaps be willing to accept that some cages should be rattled if all parties cannot buy into the idea of bringing the number of Members down to a more sustainable level, whether that is 90 or 70—I will leave that to people who are far more knowledgeable about the matter than I am. Such a reduction will be progress. It will not only reduce the cost of politics but make those democratic representatives more relevant. I cannot think of a more horrendous idea than having six members of another assembly sitting below me in my constituency—I imagine it makes local politics a little more interesting. I am not saying that all Northern Ireland Members would be in favour of reducing the number, but it will make politics simpler and easier to understand. It will also make those who are elected to the Legislative Assembly more accountable to their electorate.
We have heard differing views on whether the election date should be changed, but I think it would be good if all the devolved Assemblies held all their elections on the same day. That would make the date more significant, not only for the devolved Assemblies but for the whole United Kingdom. If elections are held on different days and in different years, there is not so much of a national story or a local story. We must not underestimate the importance of a devolved Assembly to the lives of the whole United Kingdom. As one who believes in a united kingdom, the success of the devolved Assemblies is as important to me as it is to those who live in Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland. So often, the BBC and our national press ignore stories in the devolved Assemblies; I hope that holding all the elections together will make a more significant news story for the whole of the United Kingdom.
We have been waiting for this Bill. I remember the previous Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), talking about it excitedly, and now it has arrived. It is a good Bill, I welcome it and I am happy to support it.
6.11 pm
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I welcome the fact that, through this Bill, the House is paying some attention to Northern Ireland today, but we should not lull ourselves into a false sense of security that everything in the garden is rosy and just a few tweaks here and there will make everything perfect. Attention to Northern Ireland from this House is needed. I believe it was the shadow Secretary of State who said that devolution cannot mean disengagement, but there has been some degree of disengagement.
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Although I will comment on the Bill, I feel there is a need, before I do so, to set it in context. The context is that, yes, progress has been made—I agree with others on that—but there is a lot more to do. The Bill is concerned with some details of the interior decoration of a structure whose purpose and future are still being debated. Fifteen years ago, we had the Good Friday or Belfast agreement, and legislation followed in this House to put much of that agenda into law. This country—indeed, the world—thought that we had achieved the impossible and that lasting peace was copper-fastened. Sadly, that is not quite true.
It was wonderful to have an end to the violence and to hear almost all the guns and almost all the bombs fall silent. Hope gushed eternal from the people who had been oppressed, smothered, injured and damaged by violence, and they dared to dream of a life and a future, but an end to violence was not peace in any meaningful sense. Really, it was just what it said on the tin: it was an end to violence. Peace does not happen; it has to be built, and when it has been built, it has to be sustained, and it can be sustained only by people’s hope for a better life and a better future. There is no doubt in my mind that in 1998 the people of Ireland, north and south, were voting not just for peace, but for a better life that the peace would make possible.
We need our people to make a long-term personal investment in that peace, and we must show them what return they will get on that personal investment. In other words, the peace process can be sustained only if it is followed up by a prosperity process. Unfortunately, the financial boost required to pump-prime a prosperity process has never quite been delivered. We have heard much talk about rebalancing our economy towards wealth creation and away from over-reliance on public spending, but we have seen little action other than cuts in welfare. We have had a great debate about cutting corporation tax to put us on a level playing field with the rest of the island of Ireland to attract serious foreign investment, but the Treasury did not want a cut and priced it right out of the ballpark. The economy in Northern Ireland is fragile and the private sector small and extremely fragile. To date, too few of our people have seen any prosperity or, indeed, any economic benefit arrive on the back of the peace process. That is unfortunate, because they were entitled to some economic advance.
As a result, many people—those on the economic margins of our society—are looking backward, not forward, whether they be former provos peddling themselves as dissidents, or loyalist paramilitaries creating havoc under the guise of a flag protest. Incidentally, that protest wiped out most of our Christmas and hospitality season and left many of our hotels, restaurants and retailers bankrupt. Whatever the source or the excuse for disruption, Northern Ireland has quite a way to go before we can say that we have true peace. I am anxious that the Bill should not be taken as some sort of a final touch on the whole process. We will not have true peace until we have attended to all the factors that undermine peace, including economic factors, and we will not have it unless the sovereign Government recognise the responsibilities they undertook back in 1998. Devolution has been used by Government as an excuse for walking away. I repeat what the shadow Secretary of State said: devolution should not be an excuse for disengagement.
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It needs to be remembered that devolution in Northern Ireland is based on an international agreement between two sovereign Governments from which neither can walk away. The British Government have an obligation to see the Good Friday agreement through to completion. Unfortunately, it is still not complete. There is an obligation to act, in co-operation with the Irish Government, to ensure that devolution is not an excuse for stagnation. I regret to tell the House that, in terms of the special objectives, devolution in Northern Ireland has stalled to some extent. The two main parties have pushed the other three parties, including mine, to the margins—they have pushed us aside and are carving up the cake in their own self-interest, rather than the public interest. The Prime Minister and this Government cannot turn a blind eye any longer: they must recognise that the two-party stranglehold within a structure that was designed to be inclusive is now preventing that structure from achieving its objectives.
After 15 years, where is the progress on reconciliation and where is there any reference to reconciliation in the Bill? Where is the progress on cohesion, sharing and integration, or any reference to them? Where is there any progress on the victims’ situation, or on dealing with the past or with divisions? I am distressed and concerned that the Bill is silent on those matters. I would prefer that we were here today to discuss how progress on those issues could be advanced and included in a Bill.
Mr Donaldson: Would the hon. Gentleman care to tell the House how he feels it is a contribution to reconciliation for his party’s councillors to support the naming of a children’s play park after a convicted, dead IRA terrorist, who was caught in possession of the weapon involved in the murder of 10 innocent Protestants at Kingsmill in south Armagh?
Dr McDonnell: The issue the right hon. Gentleman refers to is not relevant to this Bill. It is quite simply an example of the DUP—
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): You wanted to talk about victims.
Dr McDonnell: Yes. The DUP are bigots and sectarian and they want to drive a wedge through our society.
Mr Donaldson: Mr Deputy Speaker!
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): “Bigots” is a very strong word. I am sure that hon. Members never judge each other like that.
Dr McDonnell: There are issues here, and these people come to apologise for the failures that they have created in Stormont.
This Bill should deal with serious difficulties in Northern Ireland and offer more remedies; if it does not, it will be inadequate and less than fit for purpose. I will now discuss some of the details of the Bill—first, the clause that deals with donations and the measures that will impact on the functioning of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I was deeply concerned to hear that there
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could be restrictions on Irish citizens making donations to political parties in the north. Many of the greatest friends and supporters of the peace process are in the south, and without their support we would not be where we are today. Indeed, those people supported all the parties across the north, not just one or two. I would be deeply concerned about any perceived restrictions on donations from Irish citizens, because something has to be realised in these debates: we are not talking about Surrey, Sussex, Essex or, indeed, Yorkshire. Northern Ireland is different: many of us are Irish and many of us see ourselves as Irish. There is an ambiguity around the settlement that we had, which has created ambiguity. Thank God for that, because it has allowed peace to flourish. We have to build prosperity on that peace.
We want to move towards a more open and accountable system of donations in Northern Ireland, and we are happy to do so when that is possible. However, those who make donations on a certain understanding of anonymity should be protected from retrospective action unless they give authorisation. That authorisation should be specific, rather than assumed. I do not want to take up any more time, but I think I was quoted earlier, and I would endorse that. I have seen a number of people who have been intimidated, and who are frightened and worried. We have to protect them.
Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman said that many people saw themselves as Irish in Northern Ireland. That may be the case, but does he acknowledge that the national opinion poll last year showed that only 21% of nationalists were in favour of a united Ireland? This year, only 19% of Irish nationalists want a united Ireland. Things are changing. Is he part of that change, or is he just one of the old boys who do not want to change at all?
Dr McDonnell: I am not sure what answer I am supposed to give, or what answer is expected. I do not think that any of us pay much attention to opinion polls yet, at the same time, we can quote selectively from them when it suits.
Mr Dodds: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. A moment ago, the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) was challenged about his party’s support for the naming of a playground after an IRA terrorist. Rather than answering the point, he used the term “bigots” to refer to hon. Members in a somewhat childish reaction, instead of responding to the substantive point. Can you give a ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker, on the use of the term “bigot” as parliamentary language to refer to hon. Members?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is why I interrupted the debate. This is about having a temperate debate. It is about using moderate language. We do not want to inflame the debate. That is why I interrupted in the way that I did. I do not think that it was an appropriate use of the word, but I made that point at the time. We have moved on, and it is about making sure that it is a debate in which people have respect for one another. We are in danger of losing that respect with the use of inflammatory language.
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Dr McDonnell: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. For the record, I did not accuse any hon. Member. I referred to a group of—[Interruption.]
Mr Dodds: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Before we get too far with further points of order, I know that reference was not made to an individual Member, but the Members to whom the hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) referred were sitting behind him. In a sense, it was a collective use of the word. I do not want to prolong this. I have given my view and I want to hear more of the hon. Gentleman’s speech.
Dr McDonnell: I want to put on the record my deep concern that there are considerations to take into account about placing restrictions on Irish citizens who make donations to Irish political parties in the north. I do not wish to back that proposal, and I do not support that part of the Bill. As for transparency on donations, we want to move towards the open and accountable system to which I have referred.
We are comfortable, even though the Secretary of State has some grudge against the hon. Members for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) and for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and me, with the phasing out of the dual mandate in due course, and we have gone most of the way towards doing so. However, that should allow for some flexibility where appropriate, and clear lines of communication between the House of Commons and the devolved Assembly are essential. The way in which those lines of communication will be maintained should be explained in the Bill. It should be noted that there is no corresponding legislation covering the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. I am concerned that a rush to legislate on this could have unknown, and perhaps unwanted and unexpected, consequences.
Furthermore, our party would point out that the provisions do not deal with a dual mandate between the Assembly and the House of Lords. We do not agree that, somehow or other, the House of Lords is different. If there is an exclusion or ruling out of the dual mandate, it should be ruled out for all. If the Secretary of State is determined to ban the practice, why can that not be done for the upper House? Those issues need to be explored further as the Bill proceeds through Parliament.
Briefly, the reduction in the size of the Assembly should be approached with caution. Yes, we agreed to a small reduction in the context of the reduction of the number of Westminster seats—that is on the record at Stormont, where the discussions took place—but the Assembly should be as inclusive as possible, and should involve as many people as possible until a sustainable peace and good politics are well established there. We believe that until that happens there are risks.
The extension of the term of the Assembly is wrong. It is totally inappropriate for any Member given a mandate for four years to have their term extended to five years without clear justification. The election has been postponed so that it can be held at a time of possible tension, wedged between the 100th anniversary, as has been said, of the Easter rising and the 100th anniversary of the battle of the Somme. While hon. Members might not be involved in raising tension—indeed, we will do all that we can to reduce it—the anniversary of the
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battle of the Somme will increase tensions, as will the Easter rising anniversary, and it is inappropriate to hold an election between those two anniversaries.
Electoral registration in Northern Ireland is defective and while we can dot some of the i’s and cross some of the t’s in the Bill, there are some areas in which 20% to 25% of people—the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) suggested that it was 30%—are not on the register. There is a duty on someone, somewhere to ensure that that registration gap is covered and repaired.
I do not wish to say the matters in the Bill are not important—they are—but on their own they are not enough to bring progress and achieve better electoral registration. Any honest observer will say that there has been little progress overall in Northern Ireland. I urge the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and the Government to get a grip on the stagnant situation in Northern Ireland, as we face serious problems.
Jim Shannon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr McDonnell: Sorry, no: I want to make progress.
Months of illegality during the flags protests do not bode well for the marching season, which has started badly, as we have heard. We are now much further away from dealing with flags, marches and illegal bonfires than we were five years ago.
I want to put on the record the fact that profits from illegal fuel laundering in Ireland generally—we can split it north and south; it used to be a northern problem, but it has migrated south, and regrettably it has moved into parts of southern Scotland and northern England—amounting to £60 million to £70 million a year are swelling the coffers of the provo organisation. Much of that has now been set up as a privatised business.
David Simpson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dr McDonnell: I am trying to make progress, but the hon. Gentleman has an interest in this, so I shall do so.
David Simpson: I am grateful. The hon. Gentleman referred to illicit fuel laundering across the whole of Northern Ireland, right across the whole of the United Kingdom and into the Republic of Ireland. If his party agreed to the implementation of the National Crime Agency that would go a long way towards trying to resolve the problem.
Dr McDonnell: Issues relating to the National Crime Agency have to be resolved. We are keen that responsibility for dealing with crime and keeping the law is retained in Northern Ireland with the PSNI.
Beyond fuel laundering, tobacco smuggling creates about £100 million-worth of benefit to a wide cross-section of people. Some of them are provos, some are dissidents, many are loyalists and many are non-aligned criminals. The Bill works to convey the impression—perhaps with some justification—that we have a normal society. Yes, we are moving towards a normal society, but our society did not suddenly become normal when organised violence ended. There were generations of industrial decline, then decades of violence, which left our economy drastically skewed towards public spending. It will take at least a generation to fix it, as the Prime Minister recognised before the election.
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The people who brought us the decades of violence are still there, doing rather nicely out of organised crime, which is in danger of becoming normalised. Millions of litres of laundered fuel have been seized, but not one person has gone to jail. We have a deeply divided society, with little prospect of divisions being tackled seriously if the current two-party stranglehold is allowed to determine the rate of progress. Let us be blunt and recognise just how deep the divisions are that we have and the divisions that we are asked to tackle.
We have a major challenge to tackle. The Bill should tackle the reconciliation issue, the victims issue, dealing with the past, and cohesion, sharing and integration. All these things are vital and should be included in some shape or form in the Bill, and there should be some movement on that.
6.31 pm
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for inviting me to speak in the debate. I will not pretend that I knew Northern Ireland particularly well before I was elected to this place, but sitting on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee with my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who does such a brilliant job of chairing it and keeping us all in order, I have learned quite a bit about Northern Ireland, and also from being a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.
Last night I was listening to Michael Portillo’s programme on BBC Radio 4 about 1913, which happens to be the year before my father was born. Michael Portillo talked about how it was that Ireland became involved in the domestic policy of Britain and how important that was. That had kicked off in 1848, with the Irish potato famine. Today I was reminded by one of my hon. Friends that when Churchill introduced the Bill to establish the Irish free state in 1922 he famously remarked that despite the cataclysm of the first world war which had swept the world, the “integrity of the quarrel” between the people of Fermanagh was one of the few institutions that had been unaltered. Today that situation has been transformed by peace in a way that was barely imaginable 20 years ago, let alone in the 1920s. This month Fermanagh was not at the heart of a quarrel, but was the home of the world’s leaders at the G8 conference at Lough Erne. This year we are celebrating the city of culture in Londonderry, and this very week last year we saw the Irish open taking place at Royal Portrush, which I was delighted to be able to go to. Progress is being made.
Today is an historic occasion. We are not talking about the troubles. We are talking about the constitution of Northern Ireland. I want to use this opportunity to congratulate and to thank the former Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and also Sir John Major for all their hard work and effort in bringing about the Good Friday agreement. I thank the Americans as well and President Clinton for the effort that he invested.
I welcome the Bill. There are one or two issues about which I have concerns, such as the dual mandate, which allows people to sit in the House of Lords and the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is very good indeed that we are talking about how we can create greater transparency in Northern Ireland. In the main, I agree with the Bill.