I am painting some of the positive stories, and it is correct to do so. We appreciate that some things have not worked as well as they might have done, but we have been on a journey together. As I said, this is the biggest ever programme of its kind, and it has taken time, effort and energy. We have used the whole notion of transparency, and decided to have a black-box approach, because that would give flexibility to providers, particularly at the start of their journey, so that they could better understand people’s needs and see what they could do with the money. However, there are measurements, processes and monitoring within the system, and because we need

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to reach out to those who are hardest to help, there is also a payment structure so that the most difficult to support get the appropriate amount of money. All that is being developed at the moment.

We therefore take it fairly and squarely on the chin when we are asked whether the Work programme is working, and whether we are working with the hardest-to-reach people. We are now asking people and key providers to get back to us on which issues they found the most difficult, and to tell us what support we need to give them. Yes, a lot is being done, but there is still a lot to do.

The Work programme is not perfect, but it is a major step forward in supporting some of those who are hardest to help. I want to make sure that the programme reaches its full potential, and I am committed to fixing the bits that do not work. Many questions to me today have been about whether we are committed to doing that, and we certainly are. Another question raised was about culture and leadership. Transparency is key, as is bold ambition, hard work and determination to reach out to those who most need our help, and I give a commitment to those things today.

4.28 pm

Dame Anne Begg: This has been an excellent debate. We had extra time through starting early, but we needed that time, and might have used even more.

There has been quite a lot of agreement across the party political divide. Much of what the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) said reflected comments from members of the Select Committee. He waxed lyrical about the youth contract, which is not of course part of the Work programme, but helps to illustrate that there is a need for specialist help, including for more specialist help to be directed to certain people. Both he and my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) said that there is a real problem with the rigidity of Work programme rules, meaning that access to training can be quite difficult, even when it is available. The Committee was certainly clear that such access is needed.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy mentioned that some people should have early referrals, but that would of course require a proper classification system, which was one of our main recommendations, while another recommendation was to extend referrals for some clients. Both the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth mentioned the failure of the work capability assessment. That and the differential pricing structure are simply making life very difficult for prime contractors, which is why it is so hard to deliver on the most difficult-to-reach group.

The Minister suggested that we are saying that the Work programme does not work for anyone, but nobody is saying that. It does work for many people. The examples she gave could have been given at any time in the past 15 years; the real test of the Work programme is not how it works for the easy to reach, but how it works for the most difficult.

4.30 pm

Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 10(13)).