To return to the science briefly, we can argue about it. Professor Rowland’s report was peer-reviewed and was accepted by the New Zealand Government of the time; the Minister should not skirt over that too lightly. The point that I am suggesting to her is that, compared with other countries that have test veterans, we are near the bottom of the table in terms of how we treat them.
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Surely, there is a moral obligation to consider where Britain fits in. In many other countries, veterans do not have to establish a causal link between being at the tests and ill health. Compensation comes automatically, although I stress once again that I am not arguing for compensation in this case; I am asking for recognition, as highlighted.
Anna Soubry: I am interested by that intervention. My hon. Friend now seems to be saying that we should put the science to one side, because it perhaps does not suit his argument, but the science is absolutely clear. However, I am more than happy to turn now to the comparison of international provisions for nuclear test veterans.
Mr Baron: Will the Minister give way?
Anna Soubry: I will deal with this first, and then I will be more than happy to give way. I hope that I can set the record absolutely straight.
Comparisons of provisions in the United Kingdom and other countries can be very misleading. We are not at the bottom, and I do not want these good people, who have served our country so well, to feel that they are in some way being short-changed and that an advantage is being given to test veterans from other countries. I will go through some of the other schemes.
Let us talk about America. The compensation scheme offered by the United States Department of Veterans Affairs must be seen in the context of the United States health care system, which, as we know, is not free. Access to veterans’ health care is for those with service-connected disability of a certain level, and it is means-tested for all veterans, including atomic veterans. I would therefore argue that is not as good as the scheme in our country.
Mr Baron: Will the Minister give way?
Anna Soubry: No. I am so sorry. I will be happy to give way at the end, but I want to go through all these other countries to put the record straight.
Let us look at the compensation scheme run by the Canadian Government. It was run for just one year—from 2008 until 2009—and it was principally designed for approximately 900 personnel involved in the clean-up of the Chalk River radiation leak, without reference to any illness or injury. If I may say so, therefore, its relevance to our nuclear test veterans is, at best, peripheral.
In France, nuclear test veterans have been eligible for compensation only since 2009, and they were not consulted on the design of the scheme now in existence. As a result, although it may appear more generous than the UK’s war pensions scheme, which I will describe later, the scheme in France demands a greater burden of proof of a link to service. If I may say so, it would do, because it was introduced only in 2009. As a result, we believe only one award has been made in France, which speaks volumes about that scheme.
It is a similar story in Australia, where the compensation scheme operates in part on the basis of a reasonable hypothesis. Again, that may appear, at first blush, to be more generous than the terms of our war pensions scheme, which demands only that a reasonable doubt of
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a link to service is raised on the basis of reliable evidence. However, in fact, nuclear test veterans in Australia face a tougher test, which is set out in the legislation. For example, for cancer of the bladder, veterans must have received a cumulative dose of at least 100 mSv of ionising radiation a number of years before clinical onset, while there is no such requirement in the UK scheme.
My hon. Friend mentioned the Isle of Man scheme. The Isle of Man decided to award £8,000 to nuclear test veterans, with no proof of medical causation required. That is, of course, a matter for the Manx Parliament. The UK Government rightly have an evidence-based policy. They also strive to provide value for money for the taxpayer, which the Isle of Man has less need to be concerned with, because it has made only two payments.
Mr Baron: Our central argument is not to put the science to one side, as the Minister suggested. We can argue about the science, and both sides will be able to draw justification for their particular line. The Rowland report was certainly peer reviewed and accepted by the New Zealand Government of the day, so it cannot be easily discarded by the Minister.
Let me return, however, to what I call the international table of decency. The Minister needs to check what happens with regard to US veterans, because those who turn up at a veterans’ hospital have access to free health care. In addition, there does not have to be a causal link between being at the tests and one of a series of illnesses—mostly cancer, but other illnesses, too.
The Minister also mentioned Canada; again, no causal link is required, but it is clear that the payment is there to be made. Likewise, the Minister is slightly incorrect, or disingenuous at least, to suggest that we can simply discard the example of the Isle of Man. She says that only two payments have been made, but she also needs to check that figure, because my evidence suggests that 17 have been made to date.
Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the Minister, may I repeat the obvious point that interventions should be brief?
Anna Soubry: That is what I am told. If my hon. Friend is saying that it is not true, we will get it sorted out and we will find out. My information is that there have been two payments. He misses the point about the American system, which is that it is means-tested, while ours is not. I have made my point about Canada, where the scheme applied to 900 personnel involved in a clean-up after a radiation leak. I would therefore suggest that there is no comparison to be made in relation to nuclear test veterans.
On the science, my hon. Friend relies on one report, and I have made my comments about it. I rely on three reports, which have been done over many years, and I know of no one who challenges their findings.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab):
I apologise for not being here earlier, but I was in another meeting. Does the Minister agree that the issue with the Rowland study, which I have read on several occasions, is that although it found radiation could, in some cases, cause
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chromosome abnormality, it did not—this is the important next step—show that those chromosomal changes led to cancer?
Anna Soubry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for providing that information. That is another compelling argument in relation to the science.
I want to make it absolutely clear that it gives no one any pleasure to stand up and to have to talk about these things, because it sounds as if no one cares. On the contrary, those of us who do not agree with my hon. Friend and the £25 million fund that he advances do so not because we do not care, but because we know what the science says and because—I certainly take this view—we have to set this issue in the context of all our veterans, so that we do justice by everyone. We must always be careful not to be seen in any way to single out one group and put it above another.
I really take issue with the idea that we are somehow being shameful, or that we are in any way wrong, in our attitude to our nuclear test veterans. That is not the case. The existing scheme is good, fair and, arguably, generous, and it is one we should be proud of. Of course one could always argue that anyone in receipt of any form of compensation or benefit should have more, but what we have at the moment is fair and generous.
Let me come on to our scheme, because it is important to put on the record that any veteran who believes they have suffered ill health due to service has the right to apply for no-fault compensation. We therefore have a no-fault compensation scheme under the war pensions scheme. Where there is reliable evidence that disablement is due to service, a war pension is awarded, with the benefit of reasonable doubt always given to the claimant. Nuclear test veterans are no different, and war pensions are paid to claimants for disorders accepted in principle as being caused by radiation, where the evidence raises a reasonable doubt of service-related radiation exposure. In addition, awards are made automatically to nuclear test veterans who developed certain leukaemias within 25 years of participating in the tests. For some, therefore, there is an automatic entitlement, which is absolutely right. Again, that begins to move us up that so-called league table, if, as some would argue, such a table exists.
It should be noted, however, that in May this year the first-tier tribunal, the war pensions and armed forces compensation chamber, delivered a decision in a group action of 14 nuclear test veterans’ war pension appeals. The majority of the appeals were rejected. The tribunal found material exposure where appellants undertook work in forward areas or otherwise came into contact with radiation, but not in relation to the majority of the bystander appellants. The decisions of the tribunal support the MOD’s current policy relating to claims for a war pension made by nuclear test veterans.
Mr Baron: The veterans have made it clear that they find the war pensions process time-consuming and arduous, even when they are successful. We talk about success rates, but 90% of the veterans membership have failed to get a war pension.
As for the international table, the compensation payments in the USA, Canada and so on—although I am focusing on recognition, not compensation—are made in addition to war pensions that are already given to veterans. We should not paint this country’s war pensions as doing
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anything special, when those are very much automatic in other countries, and there is compensation on top of that.
Anna Soubry: I have made my comments about the so-called league table, and have relied on the information I have been supplied with, but I do not believe that our nuclear test veterans are at the bottom of any league table. I certainly do not believe that our record is shameful.
The Government’s second reason for remaining unable to support a benevolent fund concerns the comparison that my hon. Friend has made with compensation packages provided abroad. I hope that I have dealt with all that. My hon. Friend mentioned the sum—it is actually £20 million—given by the UK Government as compensation to the Australian Government in the 1990s. We should be clear about why that money was made over. The £20 million was ex gratia and was given to the Australian Government to contribute to the total cost of rehabilitating the test sites in Australia. Payments were made in instalments, the last being made in 1998. I do not want it to be suggested that the Government somehow advantaged veterans or other people who served in the forces in Australia.
The Government hold the view that to create a benevolent fund would be tacitly to accept liability for which no legal grounds exist. That was demonstrated in the atomic veterans group litigation for damages against the MOD in 2006. In 2009, 10 lead cases were allowed to proceed to a full trial on causation, at the judge’s discretion, under the Limitation Act 1980; normally, there is a three-year statute of limitations on personal injury claims. The MOD appealed, and in 2010 the Court of Appeal overturned the High Court ruling in all respects, except for one case. In arriving at its judgment, the court also considered the merits of the claims in terms of causation and concluded that their general merits were extremely weak.
Mr Baron: The Minister has been generous in giving way, which is appreciated in a debate of this sort. Payment to a benevolent fund would not necessarily be an admission of liability. An ex gratia payment makes no admission of liability or guilt. We need to make that clear. The Government have made ex gratia payments to other countries, as the Minister readily admits.
Anna Soubry: I must throw that back to my hon. Friend and ask him for what purpose he wants a benevolent fund. Is he saying that the nuclear test veterans’ need is greater than that of other groups of veterans? What would the payment redress?
Mr Baron: I am pleased that we are clarifying this. To repeat what I said earlier, the payments would be dispensed on the basis of need, to help with care and treatment, not on the basis of entitlement. Not all veterans would receive it, but it would be recognition of the fact that their service was in many respects unique, that the science was at the time unknown and that the risk was unquantifiable. Let us not forget that those servicemen were doing national service; that is an important factor. In many respects their service was unique, and we should recognise that.
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Anna Soubry: I do not think that that is the strongest of cases. We know what the science tells us. If the view is advanced that the group of veterans in question—and I pay tribute to their service—should have the money just because they did that work on the country’s behalf, I can hear that being advanced by all manner of other veterans groups with equal force.
Mr Kevan Jones: When I was a Minister, I authorised a settlement proposal, because in my opinion large amounts of public money should not be wasted on lawyers when the case could be settled without the question of liability. Unfortunately, the settlement that I authorised was rejected by the lawyers involved. I am sorry, but I think that it was the individual veterans’ best chance of getting a large amount of compensation. The figure stretched to several million pounds.
Anna Soubry: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend—there is no harm in my calling him that—who raises an important point, which has already been explored, quite properly. I was shocked by it. I do not know the details, but I have experience as a criminal barrister and know that every lawyer is under a duty to consult the client first. No lawyer ever makes the decision—although, apparently, in the case in question, very unusually, that was what happened. The client provides the instructions and makes the decision. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman and I should talk about those events after the debate. I should like to know more.
I was talking about a case that went to the Court of Appeal, where the general merits of the claims were found to be extremely weak. On appeal, the Supreme Court ruled in March 2012, on a majority decision, in favour of the MOD. Significantly, all the justices, even those dissenting, recognised that the veterans would face extreme difficulties proving causation. That brings us back to the science.
The MOD continues to recognise the concerns of nuclear test veterans—I am always prepared to listen and like to think that I have an open mind, although I have spoken frankly this afternoon. However, there is no medical or legal evidence to support calls for compensation of the veterans as a group—and I hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay says about seeking a benevolent fund, not a compensation fund. Any veteran who believes that service has had an impact on their health can submit a war pension claim. Where the evidence supports their claim, we will provide financial compensation. However, recent legal cases have shown that the incidence of that is far lower than many veterans organisations claim.
The argument for a £25 million benevolent fund to compensate veterans and family members affected by ionising radiation is flawed. The UK’s existing health, social and welfare support for its citizens and the specific support for all veterans make it unnecessary. Indeed, when we consider the public investment in the NHS and in the social and welfare fields, it can be argued that the financial value of that support far exceeds the monetary value of any compensation payment that the Government would pay.
3.29 pm
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Flood Defences (Thurnham, Lancashire)
3.56 pm
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): It is a pleasure, Mr Streeter, to serve under your chairmanship and to welcome the Minister to his post. I congratulate him on his appointment; I am sure his response at the end of this debate will show him to be a wise and listening Minister.
Thurnham is a small part of the parish of Glasson Dock, on the edge of Morecambe bay. The sea defences are situated in the Cockerham and Thurnham areas of north-west Lancashire, running approximately 7.7 km from Cocker Bridge on the A558 in the south to Janson Pool in the north, south-west of the port of Glasson. They form an integral part of the west Lancashire coastal defences, providing protection against tidal inundation from what is essentially the estuary of the river Lune as it goes into Morecambe bay.
The area has been subject to flooding damage through overtopping and breaching of the existing defences in the past. The most recent floods occurred in 1977, when approximately 540 hectares of land were affected, and in 1983 and 1990, when approximately 50 hectares were flooded. As one can tell from the description, it is mainly a lowland mixed farming area, with sheep and some dairy. There are also important tourist facilities in the form of caravan parks, scattered residential housing and one listed monument in the remains of Cockersands abbey.
In 1999, Jacobs Engineering completed a business case for Cockersands sea defences, which proposed a “hold the line” option. In January 2004, a reappraisal of the economic business case to refurbish the existing defences was undertaken by Jacobs. It concluded that no capital scheme could be promoted, although it recommended that further options, including managed realignment or continued maintenance, could provide a better business case.
In November 2004, a further study was undertaken to consider the recommendations of the economic reappraisal, and that determined that a managed retreat scheme could be the right economic method, even when all the land and buildings were written off from tidal inundation and purchased at their market value. In arriving at the conclusions, Jacobs recommended that a physically based model to simulate onshore tidal inundation and onshore wave inundation for different return periods was undertaken as its conclusions were limited by the quality of the available flood spread information.
Consequently, maintenance activities continued, in line with the original recommendations from the shoreline management plan. In January 2008, Jacobs completed a technical report, investigating the effects of tidal flooding should the existing defences be removed, as well as the several managed realignment options identified in the 2004 studies. In 2009-10, the shoreline management plan was updated by Halcrow and recommended that a “hold the line” policy should be adopted for years nought to 20, followed by managed realignment for years 20 to 100. The shoreline management plan updated the economic appraisal in line with the latest guidance.
I have raised this debate because I am trying to establish something. Since 2010, there has been a series of meetings between Environment Agency officers on
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the ground and the Cockersands Forum steering group, which was established by the parish council. All those meetings have been open and transparent, and shared information has gone backwards and forwards, but we are now getting to the point where certain fundamental policy decisions need to be made by Ministers if we are to make any kind of progress.
The Cockersands Forum steering group, which is formed of residents, considered that the flood defence rebuild costs that were put in by the Environment Agency were inflated, and that the reports of the overtopping events from past flooding were inconsistent with their own knowledge of the history of what had happened. Interestingly, I understand that in the middle of the discussions between the agency and the local residents, through the forum, when the sea defences were looked at properly and people walked them, the agency was prepared to admit that the defences were in a better state of repair than was perhaps first apparent.
The discussions have got to the point where the Environment Agency has been prepared to say that it will hold the line for 30 years. That was something better. Clearly, however, the fact that the defences will be maintained for only that amount of time will have a significant impact on the value of residential homes and businesses. How can people in this area now sell or invest for the future, knowing that there is possibly a 30-year time limit, after which the defences will not be manned? The issue for them is this: how can any Government simply let good farming land, good housing and good businesses be slowly ruined, based on assumptions about possible sea levels in 30 years’ time?
It seems ridiculous that lives can be ruined on such speculation when there is no exact science, yet the plans in place already mean that there is blight in the specific area and particular residents are unable to sell their properties, despite wanting to move on because of age or family circumstances. In a sense, it is a death knell to Thurnham and the surrounding area that there can be no movement in and no movement out.
The residents are practical people; as you and the Minister well know, Mr Streeter, we are all practical people in Lancashire. So the residents took the matter further and looked at all the past evidence they had, in the form of photographs and written evidence, about the 1977 flood. They came up with an extremely sophisticated diagram of what had happened in that year. What they proved to the Environment Agency—to be fair, the agency accepted it—was that it was possible to see in some of the historical detail that the flooding covered a much wider area than was set out in the original Environment Agency plan. That, at least, is my understanding.
Now we are in a strange position. My understanding is that the Environment Agency has accepted that local residents, through their knowledge of history and what they have produced, have demonstrated that if the defences go down, a much wider area will be flooded than was set out in its original statement. However, strangely enough, that does not affect any of the agency’s cost-benefit analysis between its original assumptions and its present-day assumptions. It still wishes to stick to a policy of “hold the line” for 30 years and after that to manage retreat, leaving the area, as I have said, to the
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depredations of the sea and whatever we can predict about the sea and rivers in 30 years’ time. So the strange position is that although residents, to my knowledge and that of the Environment Agency, have demonstrated that a bigger area will be flooded in the future, that will not affect the cost-benefit analysis.
One of the key determinants appears to be the cost-benefit figure that the Treasury established in respect of losing farming land in particular. I understand that this is a long-established Treasury figure, which takes no account of rising population, both here and across the world, or of the increased concern that we all have—in whatever country we live—about food security.
I wish to ask a particular question of the Minister. If my assumptions are correct about this cost-benefit analysis, are his Department or the Treasury, or both, doing any work to look again at revising the old cost-benefit of farming land, given the national situation in terms of population growth and the political concerns among all parties about food security?
Secondly, let us take the boundaries of my constituency and that particular part of the west coast of Lancashire. At the end of my constituency is the town of Fleetwood, where the Government have just agreed—I am grateful for it—that £65 million is to be used to improve flood defences. The Rossall sea wall needs to be demolished so that a new wall can be put in. It will protect 12,000 homes.
However, from the outside it looks as if the Lancashire coast is being dealt with in separate sections. Fleetwood, quite rightly, gets £65 million; the sea wall there needs attending to. If anyone sees that sea wall, they will know that it is like the Berlin wall. The poor residents need something that might look better and might do a better job. However, just along the coast, there is another village called Pilling, where I have regular meetings. Again, that is a lowland area, next to Thurnham, where there are also concerns about flooding and land drainage. Yet at the Pilling meetings, there is no mention of what is happening next door in Thurnham. That might be because Thurnham comes under Lancaster district council and Pilling comes under Wyre district council. Nevertheless, it seems a bit odd, because my understanding of water is that when it comes through the dykes or over or through the sea defences, it does not worry whether it is flooding Pilling or Thurnham, which are next to each other.
One question that I have for the Minister has already been asked by people in local parishes—what happened to the old land drainage boards, which used to cover wider areas? Also, is there a bureaucratic impasse because of different council boundaries? Do we need to consider a better structure in the long term? That might not be the land drainage structure of the old days, which I understand was somewhat bureaucratic—but at least it involved local landowners, on a wider scale, in the nature of drainage and flooding of their areas.
Will the Minister consider looking at a different vehicle, which could involve, yes, the parishes, villages and local residents in some form or fashion and enable them to cut across the district councils and look at land drainage areas as they are—that is, as geographical drainage areas that do not respect council boundaries? Perhaps we could deal with some kind of operation in those terms.
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My understanding is that there has been some discussion on the east coast of this country about such schemes, and that there are still some leftover remnants of the old land drainage boards around the place. They might give us some pilot schemes to see whether the boards could be revamped in the ways I have outlined.
What the people of my constituency, in my part of Lancashire, are looking for is a wider look at what the Government’s plans are for the future. How can a Government spend so much money—quite rightly, in the case of Fleetwood—to protect one part of the coast, and then leave another part to the vagaries of what the science presumes will happen in 30 years’ time: sea levels will be somewhat higher and farming land will not be as valuable as it could be? Farming land is not as valuable as people’s lives, of course; I accept that. Somehow we do not seem to see what the wider plan for the area is. If my residents were able to see and understand that wider plan, they might have a better way of grasping what the Environment Agency’s and the Government’s policies are.
I am particularly interested in learning what the new Minister—the new broom, as they say—might want to do to offer some succour to people across my constituency, whatever district council they belong to. Some have suggested that there is a deliberate attempt to carve off one village against another. I would never support such conspiracy theories; I simply think that it is good old bureaucracy again.
The third thing that I want to raise is a little blue-sky thinking; although we are practical in Lancashire, we can think outside the box. If the Environment Agency is going to hold the line and if the Government are going to supply the money to keep the sea defences going for 30 years and then make a decision—we have not discussed this with the parish council, although it has been talked about in the area generally—could there be a special levy in the area as part of the parish rate, which could go into a fund to be invested for 30 years? We wanted to describe it as a sinking fund, but since we are talking about flooding, let us talk about a floating fund.
If the levy was £25 a year, let us say, with 500 residents paying it, in 30 years there would be more than £300,000 before interest. Any parish or group of residents would be in a very strong position, whoever the Government were in 30 years’ time. If they had a body of money to contribute, it would make it much more difficult for the Government of the time to say, “We are still going to abandon the defences.”
I have discussed the levy with the district council. If there were such a charge, and if somebody wanted to buy a property, would it appear in the land charges office? If it did appear, would the fact that it was offering another stage of protection help to maintain the values? This is anecdotal evidence, but various estate agents in Lancaster feel that it would help to maintain values and keep that exchange of property and businesses going on, because there would be further protection building up over time.
Interestingly, the council said there was nothing in law that would allow it to specify such a measure on a land charge. However, that might not be needed. It might
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simply need a parish rate and a parish flood defence rate. I do not know. I assume that when searches are made, the council charge and parish charge come up, so perhaps we could come up with a flood defence charge.
As I said, this is blue-sky thinking. The residents have jobs to do, and we are all trying to find a practical way to assist Government and the Environment Agency. It would be really helpful if some of the experts, who I know exist in the Department, could look at the idea. It might mean talking to the Department for Communities and Local Government.
The residents of Thurnham are trying to find a way in which they can be seen to be helping themselves, but, for 30 years—perhaps even longer—they need Government support to protect the land that they have bought, where they have built their businesses, or have retired to, or where they run their farms.
I did not secure this debate because of any angst with the Environment Agency. I can see an officer here from the Environment Agency; we have met on several occasions. The agency has dealt with the matter absolutely transparently in an up-front way and with a great deal of sensitivity and understanding. We are talking about people’s lives, businesses and properties, and I pay due credit to it. However, we have now hit an impasse and we need Ministers to start looking at the policy implications.
If the problem exists in Thurnham, which is a small part of Lancashire—obviously dear to me as part of my constituency, and even more dear to the people who have built their lives and businesses there—it must exist across the piece. It cannot be right for any Government to take a 30 or 50-year view that somehow, because it is mainly agricultural land, it will be worth less than it is today. If people are willing to try to find a vehicle to help themselves and to join with the Government in maintaining the sea defences, it cannot be impossible to find the time, effort and brains to provide them with a little extra help.
I will be delighted to hear the Minister’s comments about those three points. I understand that he cannot say yes, but if he could stand up and say that Thurnham will be protected for the next 100 years, I would be more than grateful. I understand his position. He might need to take the issues away, but Thurnham in Lancashire is willing to help and to offer ideas. It desperately wants to keep the livelihoods of people who have farmed there for generations. Generations of family life have gone into that particular area, and they simply want a future for themselves, their children and the people of Lancashire, and to keep a beautiful part of Lancashire safe from the sea.
4.15 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson):
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I want to thank the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) for giving us the opportunity to explore the issues. I also thank him for the way in which he has approached the subject. It would be too easy for a constituency MP to come here and say, “There’s a problem. What are you doing about it, Government?” He is doing that to a certain extent, but
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he is also saying that the people in the communities that he represents are very open to being a part of the solution and to working in partnership with the Government and the Environment Agency to achieve that. I welcome the role that he has played in bringing the sides together and ensuring that we have a helpful way forward, and I really mean that.
As a Member of Parliament representing a coastal constituency, I know exactly what the hon. Gentleman is talking about in terms of discussions on managing the coastline for the future. I represent, among many other communities, the village of Boscastle, where, as the hon. Gentleman might remember, there was a horrendous flood in 2004, which also affected communities in Crackington Haven and Canworthy Water. The issues of flooding are foremost in my mind both as a constituency MP and as a Minister with new responsibilities, which I am trying to carry out to the best of my ability.
The hon. Gentleman will be aware—in fact, he pointed to this—of the national scale of the challenge that we face on flood management. In England, one in six properties is at risk of flooding. By area, 11% of the country benefits from flood defences, including some of our most important commercial and economic centres. This includes 1.3 million hectares of agricultural land—a point that the hon. Gentleman made. The majority of the most versatile and productive farmland in England is in flood risk areas. The soil is often productive because it is in a river catchment, and it is very fertile, but it is intrinsically vulnerable to flooding.
Flood management supports the Government’s primary objective to deliver economic growth and build a stronger economy, and it remains a top priority for the Department. The Secretary of State and my predecessor have both been very clear about that commitment. Proof of our commitment to flood management can be seen in the announcement this summer on long-term capital settlement to improve flood management infrastructure. This announcement set out a record level of capital investment of more than £2.3 billion in the six years to 2021.
However, we are not only increasing capital expenditure; we are providing an above-inflation increase of £5 million for the Environment Agency’s flood maintenance work in 2015-16. That is very important for schemes such as the hon. Gentleman’s, which have been there for some time, and we need to maintain them for the next few decades. As he has outlined, there is a potential plan, but we cannot guarantee that beyond 30 years. That is not to say that we will walk away after 30 years, but we will come back to such issues as I continue my speech. Although we have made significant commitments, I know that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the need to contain public expenditure. Central Government funding is simply not sufficient to pay for everything that would be worth while to some degree in flood management. As a result, there will continue to be stiff competition for Government funding, and we must ensure that we get the best value for money for the taxpayers’ investment.
The Environment Agency’s capital programme currently provides an average of at least £8 of benefits in damages avoided for every pound invested in construction of defences. However, the benefits realised are in fact even greater. Once the capital has been spent on construction, the routine maintenance of those defences can provide
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an even higher rate of return. The agency estimates an average benefit-cost ratio of 14 to 1 for its asset maintenance programme.
It is no longer the case that the Government fund only the cream of projects with the very best benefit-cost ratios, while leaving other worthwhile projects with nothing. In 2011, we introduced partnership funding to ensure that a fair portion of DEFRA funding can be made available for any worthwhile improvement scheme. That inevitably means that not all Government-funded schemes are fully funded. The new approach ensures that investment in flood management is not constrained by what the Government alone can afford, thereby increasing certainty and transparency on the level of DEFRA funding for projects, leveraging further investment towards worthwhile projects, allowing greater local ownership and choice, and encouraging more cost-effective solutions. That is just the approach that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents are keen to see.
So far, partnership funding has brought forward up to £148 million in external funding over the four years to 2015, compared with £13 million during the previous three years. That huge increase in match funding is helping those projects, which were perhaps slightly less attractive initially, into development.
Early indications suggest that up to 25% more schemes will go ahead in the coming years than if project costs were met by central Government alone. That is relevant to the hon. Gentleman’s case because a partnership approach is clearly needed to manage the flood risk in such areas. The work of the Environment Agency and other risk-management authorities in the shoreline management plan has highlighted that issue. Further hydraulic modelling and more detailed economic appraisal commissioned by the agency has clarified the fact that the most effective option is not managed realignment but maintaining the existing line of defences for as long as it is feasible to do so. We are then back to the cost of doing that beyond the 30-year period.
The defences will eventually need to be rebuilt. They can be patched for only so long, and it seems unlikely that central Government funding will be able to meet the full cost of those projects. The Environment Agency has told me that it estimates that the defences will need to be rebuilt at the end of that period. In the meantime, I understand that the agency’s recommended policy is to continue to maintain the defences, subject to the availability of funding.
I have already explained the priority the Government place on flood management and the resources they have secured to demonstrate that commitment. However, I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman what the funding situation will be in 30 years’ time. I have highlighted the competition that already exists for that funding. The geography of the area means that, although the maintenance and renewal of the defences is economic, the case for investment to improve the defences may not be so great as in some other areas, including areas elsewhere in his constituency that, as he points out, are about to receive significant investment. In such situations, the community cannot assume that the taxpayer will guarantee the full cost of maintaining and improving the defences, so there will need to be a partnership. Any local arrangements that reduce the cost of maintaining and improving the defences, or raise contributions from other sources, will help to deliver that.
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The Environment Agency is undertaking local discussions on how best to manage flood risk, including the residual risks if flooding does occur. I ask only that the hon. Gentleman encourages all interests to work together, as he is clearly doing.
The hon. Gentleman has highlighted a number of solutions suggested by the community. His first question was on why areas are considered separately. Bluntly, it is because there are different risks in different areas. Some flood risks are linked to river catchments, and some are connected to topography and its interaction with the sea, so there are a number of solutions for different areas. Cost-benefit ratios have to be considered in relation to the number of families and homes at risk. All of those things are considered alongside each other, so they are not held entirely in isolation. We have to consider individual schemes. In Thurnham, of course, there is an existing defence, which highlights the fact that we are looking at a particular catchment in relative isolation.
There are still many internal drainage boards doing great work across the country. They are established and have set procedures and set ways of bringing in the revenue they need to carry out the work that they want to do. We are very supportive of projects and innovation, so we have allowed seven pilots to proceed in which the maintenance of watercourses will be considered. The internal drainage boards and farmers are keen on that, and we will look at how those pilots go.
The hon. Gentleman’s constituency has a coastal situation. There may be a solution that we can move towards, although we will have to consider how that model might work in his case. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has previously said that he is happy for there to be new internal drainage boards if needed, so long as we are sure that they fit the circumstances that the hon. Gentleman describes.
On the “floating fund” that the hon. Gentleman excellently outlines, it would be positive to see the community taking steps to prepare for what might happen in 30 years’ time. He has asked me to contact colleagues in the Department for Communities and
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Local Government to consider what might be the best mechanism to achieve that, and I am happy to do so because we want to overcome any barriers to the local community starting that fund so that the contributions can begin to be built up ready for such an eventuality.
I will continue to ensure that flood management remains a priority and that Government resources are used to the best possible effect. We will continue to bear down on costs and to press the Environment Agency and other risk management authorities to look for better ways of working within available budgets. That will, however, need to be in partnership with local communities, such as those that the hon. Gentleman so ably represents today.
DEFRA is working to remove unnecessary burdens that might discourage farmers and landowners who want to undertake their own maintenance, and there may well be other approaches, too. On 14 October we launched seven watercourse maintenance pilots, and we will consider whether they achieve the outcomes hoped for by the IDBs in those areas. One of those pilots is in the Alt Crossens area of Lancashire, which is particularly relevant to the hon. Gentleman. He may wish to look at what is happening there.
Nationally, the Environment Agency is working with the National Farmers Union and other partners to improve communications and guidance for farmers who wish to undertake their own maintenance. Although I am focusing on those challenges, I do not underplay what is being achieved now and what could be achieved in future both in rural and urban areas. The agency is currently maintaining more than 97% of flood defence assets in high-risk areas in the required condition. Those defences help to protect more than 1.6 million properties and the vast majority of the most productive and versatile agricultural land.
Capital projects in the DEFRA-funded national programme completed in the past two years have provided improved flood protection to more than 150,000 hectares of farmland, as well as improving protection for more than 100,000 households. Protecting households and farmland from the risk of flooding underpins the Government’s priorities of delivering economic growth and building a stronger economy, and I am happy to work with the hon. Gentleman to deliver that.
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North Liverpool Community Justice Centre
4.27 pm
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter.
When the North Liverpool community justice centre was opened in 2005, it was designed to be an innovative court and community resource, learning from the Red Hook community justice centre in New York. The centre serves the deprived area of north Liverpool, including Kirkdale, Anfield, Everton and County. The area has strong communities that face severe challenges, and there are many vulnerable people. Half the children in Kirkdale live in poverty. Male life expectancy is 72, which is 13 years less than in Kensington and Chelsea; women’s life expectancy is 76, which is 14 years less than in Kensington and Chelsea.
North Liverpool community justice centre has pioneered new approaches to offending. Restorative justice, conditional cautions and judicial oversight are distinguishing features of the centre’s work. They enable the court to consider individual circumstances, to relate crimes to those who have suffered from them and to consider the impact on the community. Key criminal justice agencies, including the police, probation, Crown Prosecution Service and youth offending teams, are co-located in the centre.
4.28 pm
Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House.
4.55 pm
Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): We will gently get under way again. We were very much enjoying Mrs Louise Ellman’s speech.
Mrs Ellman: Thank you, Mr Streeter. The co-location of key criminal justice agencies in the centre—the police, probation, Crown Prosecution Service and youth offending teams—is an important part of its approach, but there is more. Crucial support services—dealing with, for example, drugs, debt, financial problems generally, victim and witness support and antisocial behaviour—all working together are critical, as is vital family support. It is a uniquely holistic service.
The centre has been privileged to be served by two outstanding judges with their colleagues—his honour Judge Fletcher, and from December 2012, Judge Clancy. The writing has been on the wall for some time, before the Government’s hasty consultation on closure, which took place in six rushed weeks over the summer recess. The answer to my parliamentary question about the issue on 9 September showed that the centre’s fate was sealed, and the Government have now announced that it is to close.
The reasoning on which the closure is based fails in two fundamental respects. The Government’s key argument is that the cost of the centre does not justify its continuation. First, the Government’s claim that it has failed to
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address crime successfully is deeply flawed. Crime rates in north Liverpool, which is the area covered by the centre, fell by 7.2% between 2005 and 2010—much more than elsewhere in Liverpool, and much more than elsewhere across the country. It must be remembered that the centre hears a high proportion of serious crimes. Some 88.1% of cases involve violence against the person, while the national average for cases of that sort is 47.8%. That makes its success even more notable. Its important work in addressing antisocial behaviour—a demand of the local community to address that—is simply ignored in the assessment. That work is vital to the community, yet it does not feature in the judgment on the centre’s future.
Secondly, and inexplicably, there has been no assessment of the centre’s key aim of conducting preventive work and supporting the community through its inter-agency approach. That failure is incomprehensible, as prevention of crime and supporting the community was a major objective of the centre from the very beginning. Its outstanding work on victim and witness support has resulted in, for example, a 90% to 100% successful conviction rate in cases of domestic violence. However, that outstanding work has been ignored, and I understand that with the centre’s closure, the person who has been doing that work—someone who has received national awards for their success—will cease doing it.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): As we would normally expect, my hon. Friend is making a very powerful argument on her constituents’ behalf. However, the justice centre also serves constituents in my constituency, and the closure proves the point that the Government understand the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. The Merseyside police and crime commissioner, Jane Kennedy, has described the proposals as “unnecessary vandalism”, and she has suggested that such a cut would make the job of our police force
“more difficult as the reforming work with prolific offenders will lose its focus”.
Does my hon. Friend agree that we will see reoffending rates rising because of the decision?
Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend. He makes very important points, and his comments have also been made by the mayor of Liverpool, Joe Anderson.
The centre conducts excellent work with young people in schools—it has been involved with 18 schools in the local area—and it works with colleges such as Rotunda college, helping to build the confidence of young people, yet that work is disregarded. Innovative links with mental health services make it a specialist centre, yet that work is simply cast aside. Many offenders suffer mental health problems that need to be addressed. The centre has been doing valuable work in that regard, yet even that is not worthy of assessment. Excellent rehabilitation projects such as the Turnaround project, supporting women, are considered to be unimportant. When I visited that project, I realised how important it was and how much those participating in the project valued it.
The crucial work of the citizens advice bureau, giving vital practical support to vulnerable adults and the community as a whole, is not considered worthy of consideration. The CAB is situated in the centre, and I
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understand that it will close when the work of the centre comes to an end. That will be a grave loss for the whole community; yet again, it has not been considered.
The failure to assess a key part of the centre’s remit is unacceptable. The Government even have the gall to criticise the centre for reducing its community involvement. That is hardly surprising when the Government themselves have cut funding so much that the community engagement team have been disbanded. The manager left last year and has not been replaced; the deputy is on long-term sick leave; and in the past three months the centre manager and district manager have gone.
What is to happen to these vital services? What assurance can the Minister give me? The North Liverpool community justice centre provides an important facility for the people of north Liverpool. It has a dedicated staff, committed to the local community. Its budget was cut dramatically, from £1.8 million a year in 2005 to £1.3 million a year in 2012, and a further £300,000 reduction was planned.
According to the people I represent, the centre has made a real difference to their lives. Yes, the centre is primarily about the court and reducing offending and it has achieved that, but it is also about working with the local community in this very deprived area, building links and developing community strengths, and people in the community value that. However, the assessment on which the decision to close is based ignores that vital preventive community work and dismisses the significant reduction in crime in the area.
Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): A short intervention from Steve Rotheram.
Steve Rotheram: Once again, my hon. Friend hits the nail on the head, and she is very generous about giving way. Does she agree with me that the decision to make the announcement on the cusp of the parliamentary recess has meant that the ability to scrutinise the decision fully has not been afforded to local agencies and people who want to keep the centre open?
Mrs Ellman: I fully agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. The consultation was carried out during the parliamentary recess. It was rushed. Many people did not have the opportunity to make a response, and many people did not realise that it was in fact taking place. It seems a very curious time in which to carry out a consultation on something as serious as this.
I am convinced that the decision is based on financial considerations, taking advantage of the break in the centre’s lease. We are told that the work will transfer to another court. Will that indeed be the case? What will fill the gap in terms of reducing crime, undertaking vital preventive work and supporting this resilient but deprived community? I hope that the Minister today can provide the answers.
Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Before the Minister responds, it might be helpful to know that the sitting must end by 5.27 pm.
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5.4 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara): It is a pleasure that for my first speech in the Palace of Westminster as a newly appointed Justice Minister, I am serving under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) on securing this very important debate on the North Liverpool community justice centre. In her speech, she made a number of comments, and I hope that by the time I have finished my speech, I will have allayed some of the concerns that she and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) have expressed.
The decision to close the centre was an important one, based on the hard truth that the local drop in work load and the high cost of running what is a single courtroom centre have made it untenable. Following the public consultation on the centre’s future, I announced in a written ministerial statement last week the decision to close the centre. Currently, it is planned that the last sitting day will be Friday 28 March 2014. To keep the centre running would cost almost £1 million a year, and there is no evidence that that would be money well spent in terms of the results that it achieves compared with other courts.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did not take the decision to close the centre lightly. He did so after a detailed analysis of the centre’s work and of all the points raised in the consultation responses. The consultation did not identify any single operational or efficiency reason why the centre should not close.
I stress that we are committed to continuing to provide court users in north Liverpool with effective access to justice, while seeking ways to do so at a lower cost and alongside our efforts to improve the efficiency of the justice system as a whole. In transferring the majority of the centre’s work load to Sefton magistrates court, we have been clear that the principles of the centre will be maintained and at a court that has modern facilities and a reputation for innovation.
The North Liverpool community justice centre was established in 2005 as a court and community resource, with criminal justice agencies co-located with other third sector services in a dedicated building. The centre serves an area with a population of about 60,000 people in the north end of the city of Liverpool. The original intention was to provide an intensive approach to the crimes affecting the community at a very local level for both adult and youth cases. When it was launched in 2005, the centre’s objectives included the provision of community justice in a deprived area of Merseyside and, through that, a material reduction in reoffending levels through the adoption of innovative approaches to the handling of offenders and very close cross-agency working with both public and third sector organisations.
There is no doubt that the centre rapidly built a good reputation, both locally and internationally, for developing a new approach to court-based problem solving for offenders. However, following an evaluation published in 2012, it is equally clear that the success of the centre in terms of results was at best mixed. There was no empirical evidence to show that the centre was any more successful at reducing reoffending levels than a mainstream magistrates court.
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As a result, and given the financial climate, the then ministerial team questioned the value for taxpayers’ money that the centre provided and concluded that it should continue as a court for up to two years, but with a view to increasing its work load and remit. That was vital when the centre’s own catchment area work load was falling significantly, in line with that of other magistrates courts. The increase in work load has been achieved only to a limited extent, with the transfer of mental health cases from a wider catchment area to the centre. As a result, the number of cases heard at the centre has increased during the past six months. For the 12-month period to March of this year, the centre’s courtroom utilisation rate stood at 55%. Between April and July of this year, that increased to an average of 71% through the hearing of mental health cases. However, despite that increase, the actual work load in volume terms remains relatively low.
Steve Rotheram: According to “Doing justice locally: the North Liverpool Community Justice Centre”, a report published by the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies, on page 97:
“As a result of these innovations”—
“our assessment is that criminal justice is speedier, fairer, more efficient, more community oriented, more holistic than the traditional court model”.
Mr Vara: As I shall come on to say, Sefton magistrates court offers a number of the services that are provided at the centre. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside referred to various co-located agencies, and I assure her that Sefton magistrates court has probation services, a citizens advice bureau and victim and witness support services, among others. The services that are being provided are to be relocated 1.8 miles away to another centre, which will provide the same level of service. I will refer later to the extent that any difference is required.
As I was saying, despite the increase in utilisation, the work load in volume terms remains relatively low and would continue to be so as a single courtroom site. For example, since April the centre has dealt with an average of 168 cases a month, which compares unfavourably with Sefton magistrates court, where the majority of cases will go. Over the same period, Sefton dealt with 467 cases a month. Due to the limited cell capacity at the centre, it is not feasible to transfer in any more custody work to increase utilisation.
A key driver in the decision to close the centre was the fact that there are real limitations to the volume of cases it can deal with as a single courtroom site, and it is three times more expensive than other courts. Furthermore, it is not more successful at reducing reoffending than cheaper courts, so it simply cannot be seen to represent good value for money.
Steve Rotheram:
The Minister claims that the centre is not more successful, but that is not the information that has been provided to us—I will get the report and dig the relevant section out. The Deputy Prime Minister, who talked about prisons being “colleges of crime”, and the Prime Minister, who talked about a “rehabilitation revolution”, should have been looking at the centre as a model to take to other areas. What will it cost the
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Exchequer to send the prolific reoffenders that the centre deals with properly back to prison, because they will no longer be benefiting from the innovative approaches of the North Liverpool justice centre?
Mr Vara: The hon. Gentleman wants hypothetical answers for the future, but I am not delving into the realms of the future. I will, however, look at the facts as they are—as we have them—and if he disagrees with them, I am happy to give him the sources of my information. I repeat that the services provided at the centre will not be affected in any way—they will only be at a different location, some two miles away, nothing more.
Mrs Ellman: Will the Minister give way?
Mr Vara: I would like to make a little progress, but I am happy to give way to the hon. Lady a little later.
The outcome of the consultation is to proceed with plans for closure of the centre, but the consultation response identified two areas in which the original proposals should be revised: youth and educational welfare cases. We have listened to those views and revised the proposal accordingly. Youth and education welfare cases will now be dealt with by the Liverpool youth court and the Liverpool and Knowsley magistrates court, respectively. Again, they are around two miles away—no more.
The points about work load and courtroom utilisation, plus the high running costs of the centre, were set out in the initial consultation document and in the consultation response document published last week. Moreover, the criminal justice agencies have reduced the number of people based at the centre, in line with the decrease in work and to meet their changing operational needs. For example, the Crown Prosecution Service has reduced its presence significantly and is now supporting the centre’s cases in the same way as it would in a mainstream court, as opposed to providing dedicated prosecutors and service levels, as it did previously.
As announced last week, the proposal to transfer the work from the centre to the nearby Sefton magistrates court will now proceed. Sefton has excellent modern facilities and good transport links. It has earned its own reputation for innovation, including a dedicated problem-solving court, and because of its efficient processes it was the first model court—subsequently, beacon office—in what was then known as Her Majesty’s Courts Service. Indeed, Sefton magistrates court’s problem-solving approach is built on the principles of the North Liverpool community justice centre, but is achieved at much lower cost. The principles and ethos of the centre will not be lost; they will be carried on at Sefton.
We have much for which to thank the centre. It pioneered a scheme to improve case management—to the centre’s credit, that scheme is now in place in all magistrates courts in England and Wales, reducing waiting times considerably, with the majority of cases completed within four weeks. The spirit of the North Liverpool community justice centre will move to Sefton, while allowing us to deliver cost savings of £630,000 per year.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab):
The Minister is being generous with his first speech here; I wish it were on a happier subject. Four weeks is an impressive
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turnaround time. What assurances will he give that it will be maintained when those cases are transferred to a much larger court?
Mr Vara: There is plenty of capacity at Sefton. It has five courts at the moment, and on any given day, two or three are being used. To the extent that more staff and the like are needed, provision for that has been taken on board. I am confident that the rate of processing cases will continue.
The Government published our consultation response on 22 October 2013. There were 18 responses. Five supported the proposal fully, three were neutral and 10 were opposed in some way to the closure of the centre, the choice of Sefton as the court to receive the centre’s work, or both.
The main issues recognised in support of closure were the financial benefit and the fact that the centre had moved away from its original community-focused role. Those opposed to closure focused on what they perceived as an adverse impact on the provision of justice within the north Liverpool community and raised concerns about youth and mental health cases at Sefton magistrates court. As I have said, we listened to those concerns and have acted accordingly.
Closure of the North Liverpool community justice centre will result in savings of £630,000 a year, whereas maintaining its operation would mean a continuation of costs of £930,000 a year, based on this year’s budget. The proposed savings outweigh any perceived benefits from continuing to operate the centre. That is particularly so given that I have been assured that the ethos and principles developed at the centre will live on at Sefton
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magistrates court, which itself has a reputation for innovative work, but will provide far greater value for money.
Mrs Ellman: Can the Minister give me an absolute assurance that the level of community support, particularly witness and victim support and the critical advice offered by the citizens advice bureau, and the centre’s holistic inter-agency approach will be continued in precisely the same way in those specific areas of north Liverpool?
Mr Vara: The hon. Lady asks a good question, but she must be mindful of the fact that even at the north Liverpool centre, some of the other agencies were decreasing the support that they were giving. That is not to say that that may continue at Sefton, but I assure her that as we speak, other co-located agencies are present there, which I hope will continue to deliver services. However, it would be wrong for me to give a promise based on the declining number of people at the original centre.
As set out fully in the consultation response document published last week, it seems clear to me that the case for change is made and the decision taken is the right one. In conclusion—
Steve Rotheram: Will the Minister give way?
Mr Vara: No, I have concluded. I am aware that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside has visited Sefton magistrates court, but I understand it was not recently. I suggest that she and her colleagues visit as soon as possible. I like to think that the concerns that they have expressed today will be eased when they see what is actually on offer.