House of Commons Hansard Debates for 08 Nov 2013 (pt 0001)

8 Nov 2013 : Column 533

House of Commons

Friday 8 November 2013

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I beg to move, That the House sit in private.

Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163).

The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

The House having divided:

Ayes 0, Noes 290.

Division No. 120]

[

9.34

AYES

Tellers for the Ayes:

Philip Davies

and

Mr David Nuttall

NOES

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Alexander, rh Mr Douglas

Andrew, Stuart

Arbuthnot, rh Mr James

Bacon, Mr Richard

Bain, Mr William

Baker, Steve

Baldry, Sir Tony

Baldwin, Harriett

Barker, rh Gregory

Baron, Mr John

Bebb, Guto

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berger, Luciana

Berry, Jake

Bingham, Andrew

Binley, Mr Brian

Blackwood, Nicola

Blenkinsop, Tom

Boles, Nick

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Bray, Angie

Brazier, Mr Julian

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Brokenshire, James

Bruce, Fiona

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burley, Mr Aidan

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burt, rh Alistair

Byles, Dan

Cairns, Alun

Cameron, rh Mr David

Carmichael, Neil

Cash, Mr William

Chishti, Rehman

Chope, Mr Christopher

Clappison, Mr James

Clark, rh Greg

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Crabb, Stephen

Crouch, Tracey

Davis, rh Mr David

de Bois, Nick

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Docherty, Thomas

Dowd, Jim

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Duncan, rh Mr Alan

Dunne, Mr Philip

Efford, Clive

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Jonathan

Evans, Mr Nigel

Evennett, Mr David

Fabricant, Michael

Fallon, rh Michael

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Fox, rh Dr Liam

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Freer, Mike

Fullbrook, Lorraine

Fuller, Richard

Gale, Sir Roger

Gapes, Mike

Garnier, Sir Edward

Garnier, Mark

Gauke, Mr David

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goldsmith, Zac

Goodman, Helen

Goodwill, Mr Robert

Gove, rh Michael

Graham, Richard

Gray, Mr James

Grayling, rh Chris

Green, rh Damian

Greening, rh Justine

Grieve, rh Mr Dominic

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Hague, rh Mr William

Hain, rh Mr Peter

Halfon, Robert

Hammond, rh Mr Philip

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, Matthew

Hands, Greg

Harper, Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, rh Mr John

Heald, Oliver

Heaton-Harris, Chris

Hemming, John

Hendry, Charles

Herbert, rh Nick

Hillier, Meg

Hilling, Julie

Hinds, Damian

Hoban, Mr Mark

Hoey, Kate

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Hopkins, Kelvin

Hopkins, Kris

Horwood, Martin

Howarth, Sir Gerald

Howell, John

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Hurd, Mr Nick

Irranca-Davies, Huw

James, Margot

Javid, Sajid

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, Graham

Jones, Helen

Jones, Mr Kevan

Jones, Mr Marcus

Jones, Susan Elan

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kelly, Chris

Kirby, Simon

Knight, rh Sir Greg

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Lancaster, Mark

Lansley, rh Mr Andrew

Latham, Pauline

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Jessica

Lee, Dr Phillip

Lefroy, Jeremy

Leigh, Sir Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Letwin, rh Mr Oliver

Lewis, Brandon

Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lilley, rh Mr Peter

Lopresti, Jack

Loughton, Tim

Lucas, Ian

Luff, Peter

Lumley, Karen

Macleod, Mary

Main, Mrs Anne

Malhotra, Seema

May, rh Mrs Theresa

Maynard, Paul

McCabe, Steve

McCartney, Jason

McCartney, Karl

McIntosh, Miss Anne

McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick

McVey, Esther

Menzies, Mark

Metcalfe, Stephen

Miller, rh Maria

Mills, Nigel

Milton, Anne

Mordaunt, Penny

Morgan, Nicky

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Morris, James

Mosley, Stephen

Mowat, David

Mundell, rh David

Murray, Ian

Murray, Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Neill, Robert

Newmark, Mr Brooks

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

O'Brien, rh Mr Stephen

Offord, Dr Matthew

Ollerenshaw, Eric

Opperman, Guy

Osborne, rh Mr George

Ottaway, rh Richard

Parish, Neil

Patel, Priti

Paterson, rh Mr Owen

Pawsey, Mark

Penning, Mike

Penrose, John

Perry, Claire

Phillips, Stephen

Pickles, rh Mr Eric

Pincher, Christopher

Poulter, Dr Daniel

Prisk, Mr Mark

Raab, Mr Dominic

Randall, rh Sir John

Reckless, Mark

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Reevell, Simon

Reynolds, Emma

Reynolds, Jonathan

Robertson, rh Hugh

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Rosindell, Andrew

Ruffley, Mr David

Rutley, David

Sandys, Laura

Scott, Mr Lee

Selous, Andrew

Shapps, rh Grant

Sharma, Alok

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Simmonds, Mark

Simpson, Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Smith, Nick

Soames, rh Nicholas

Soubry, Anna

Spellar, rh Mr John

Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline

Spencer, Mr Mark

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Bob

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Stride, Mel

Stringer, Graham

Stuart, Mr Graham

Sturdy, Julian

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Syms, Mr Robert

Tapsell, rh Sir Peter

Thomas, Mr Gareth

Timms, rh Stephen

Timpson, Mr Edward

Tomlinson, Justin

Truss, Elizabeth

Turner, Mr Andrew

Tyrie, Mr Andrew

Uppal, Paul

Vaizey, Mr Edward

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vaz, rh Keith

Vickers, Martin

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa

Walker, Mr Charles

Walker, Mr Robin

Walter, Mr Robert

Watkinson, Dame Angela

Weatherley, Mike

Wharton, James

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Wiggin, Bill

Willetts, rh Mr David

Williamson, Chris

Williamson, Gavin

Wilson, Phil

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Wollaston, Dr Sarah

Wright, Jeremy

Yeo, Mr Tim

Young, rh Sir George

Zahawi, Nadhim

Tellers for the Noes:

Gavin Barwell

and

Amber Rudd

Question accordingly negatived.

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European Union (Referendum) Bill

Consideration of Bill, not amended in the Public Bill Committee

9.52 am

Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con) rose—

Mr Speaker: We shall shortly begin with new clause 1, but not before I have heard the point of order from Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is stated clearly in “Erskine May” that the vote must go with the voice. Many hon. Members shouted Aye; none voted in favour. Will you investigate the question of whether any Members who shouted Aye then voted No?

Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order and I respect the spirit in which he has raised it. My understanding of the situation is that a Member who shouts Aye must not then vote in the contrary direction, or vice versa. I do not think, although I entirely respect the spirit of the hon. Gentleman’s point, that it reflects in this case because a Member is not obliged to vote simply because he or she has shouted. What he or she must not do is shout one way and vote the other. But the point that the hon. Gentleman has raised is an important one, and I thank him for raising it.

Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would be grateful for your guidance on whether there is a modern-day precedent for the use of imperial legislation, as outlined in new clause 1, which looks more like an attempt to prevent stories from appearing about more divisions in the Conservative party over Europe and about the date of referendum being before the general election.

Mr Speaker: I cannot say I am very grateful for that point of order, for the simple reason that, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, that is a point that he could and should, if he is so minded, raise in the debate, rather than detaining the House with a bogus point of order now.

Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I hope it is a genuine one.

Martin Horwood: Mr Speaker, your selection of amendments is obviously correct and beyond reproach, but perhaps you could shed some light on the non-selection of my amendment—

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. He has been in the House long enough to know that the Chair is never required to explain or, as he puts it, shed light on the selection of amendments. The hon. Gentleman will have to rest content with the selection. If I were inclined to put it bluntly, I would say that he can like it or lump it.

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New Clause 1

Gibraltar

‘(1) An order under section 3(2) or (3) which extends to Gibraltar may—

(a) provide for conduct to constitute a criminal offence under the law of Gibraltar;

(b) extend and apply to Gibraltar, with or without modification, the provisions of any enactment relating to referendums or elections;

(d) modify or apply or incorporate, with or without modification, the provisions of any legislation in force in Gibraltar relating to elections, or referendums.

(2) The capacity of the Gibraltar legislature to make law in relation to any matter in relation to which provision may be made under section 3 is not affected by the existence of the power conferred by that section.

(3) Subsection (2) is not to be regarded as restricting the operation in relation to law made by the Gibraltar legislature of the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 (under which colonial laws are void if repugnant to provision made under an Act of Parliament).

(4) “Enactment”, and “modification” have the same meaning as in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (see section 160(1) of that Act).’.—(Andrew Rosindell.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 41, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, leave out ‘and’.

Amendment 43, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) persons who have right of abode in the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 45, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) persons who would be entitled to vote as electors in a European Parliament election.’.

Amendment 46, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) all persons who are legally entitled to vote as electors at a local government election.’.

Amendment 47, in clause 2, page 1, line 18, at end insert—

‘(aa) all British citizens resident in any of the member states of the European Union.’.

Amendment 48, in clause 2, page 1, line 19, after ‘peers’, insert ‘or prisoners’.

Amendment 8, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end add—

‘(c) British citizens, regardless of where they are resident, who have registered to vote with a British Embassy or High Commission or with the local authority where they last lived in the United Kingdom not less than six months before the date of the referendum, and the statutory provisions relating to overseas voters shall be disapplied for the purposes of this section.’.

Amendment 44, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

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‘(2) Persons aged 16 or 17 on the date of the referendum shall be entitled to vote if they would, save for their age, be otherwise entitled to vote under any of the categories set out in subsection (1) above.’.

Amendment 49, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(c) citizens of the Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta resident in the United Kingdom shall not be entitled to vote.’.

Amendment 50, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(c) residents of all Crown Dependencies.’.

Amendment 51, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert—

‘(c) residents of all British Overseas Territories.’.

Amendment 63, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end add—

‘(2) Provision will be made for all electors included in the Gibraltar register as defined in Schedule 1 to the Government of Gibraltar’s European Parliamentary Elections Act 2004 to vote in Gibraltar in person or by post.’.

Amendment 69, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end add—

‘(c) persons who are citizens of British Overseas Territories.’.

Amendment 80, in clause 2, page 1, line 20, at end insert ‘and

‘( ) Commonwealth citizens who, on the date of the referendum, would be entitled to vote in Gibraltar as electors at a European Parliamentary election in the combined electoral region in which Gibraltar is comprised.’.

Amendment 81, in clause 5, page 2, line 21, at beginning insert—

‘( ) This Act extends to—

(a) England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; and

(b) Gibraltar.’.

Amendment 82, in line 1 after ‘Kingdom’, insert ‘and Gibraltar’.

Andrew Rosindell: I am proud to move new clause 1, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) and myself.

On 1 January 1973, the people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland joined the then Common Market, the European Economic Community, as it was known at that stage, but it was not just the people of the United Kingdom who joined what is now the European Union at that point. It was also the people of the then British Crown colony of Gibraltar, now known as a British overseas territory.

As all Members of the House know, the people of the Rock of Gibraltar are deeply proud of the fact that they are one of Her Majesty’s British overseas territories. They are proud of being British and proud of being part of the British family of nations and territories, but they are also part of the European Union.

Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Is it the hon. Gentleman’s opinion that the people living in Gibraltar today are also pleased that they have the right to vote in European parliamentary elections and would therefore wish to take a role in the future of the European Union?

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Andrew Rosindell: I was about to come to that very point. It was only a few years ago, in June 2004, that after a very long battle the people of Gibraltar were rightly granted the ability to vote in European elections. It was wholly wrong that part of the European Union was excluded from those elections. The people of Gibraltar, as members of the European Union, are now entitled to vote in those elections, so it is consistent with that argument that the people of the Rock should also be granted the right to vote in any future referendum regarding the European Union.

Of course it is right that we should ensure that the provisions of the Bill before the House today are extended to the people of Gibraltar as loyal subjects of the Crown and as British citizens, to ensure that all 20,000 inhabitants of the Rock are given the right to vote in any forthcoming referendum. As in our own nation, there are divided views about the European Union, but of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South has pointed out many times, today’s debate is not about our future in the European Union. It is about the right of the people to decide and to choose their own destiny. If it is right for the people of the United Kingdom to have that right, it is surely correct that the people of Gibraltar should be extended that same right of self-determination within the European Union.

The people of Gibraltar have a right to vote in this referendum. That is why my hon. Friend and I have tabled the new clause. It is only correct that all the people affected by the European Union are given the right to choose, so why should the people of Gibraltar be excluded from that decision?

10 am

Whenever the referendum is held, the people of Gibraltar will vote enthusiastically for or against their membership of the European Union. We can see from the results of European elections in Gibraltar that the vast majority of people—

Martin Horwood rose—

Andrew Rosindell: I will not be giving way.

The vast majority of people in Gibraltar, unlike people in the United Kingdom, choose to use their votes. In fact, the most recent European elections saw a 57% turnout—far higher than the turnout in the south-west region of which Gibraltar is a part. It is therefore right that they be given this opportunity. We know that they want the right to make the decision, along with the people of the United Kingdom.

The national anthem of Gibraltar says:

“Gibraltar, Gibraltar,

The Rock on which I stand,

May you be forever free,

Gibraltar, my own land.”

If the people of Gibraltar are to be free, if they are to choose their own destiny, and if it is to be their own land, they too must be given the right to vote in this referendum and in all elections. I commend the amendment to the House.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I served on the Committee, and during our proceedings we looked very closely at this matter. I remind the

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House that at that time the Government were unaware of, or had forgotten, the fact that the people of Gibraltar were a very special case because, as a European election constituency, they are part of the west of England seat and, as such, should have been included from the very start when this Bill was dreamt up.

Of course, we know that this is very much not a normal private Member’s Bill. I have never, in my experience in the House of Commons, seen a private Member’s Bill where Government Members are on a three-line Whip.

Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that that demonstrates the importance that Government Members attach to giving the British people a say in an EU referendum?

Mr Sheerman: No, I am sorry, but I do not. I think the whole question of a referendum is a very important one that this House should look at, but it is a major constitutional issue that should have been introduced with a Green Paper and had a pre-legislative inquiry. It should have been taken seriously because it would totally change the nature of Europe and our role in Europe. It is unseemly and furtive, and not at the level of great parliamentary democracy, to try to use a private Member’s Bill to bring this forward.

Until we discussed this issue in Committee, the Government seemed unaware that Gibraltar had this special status and had a vote in the European elections. Often when we take part in a Bill Committee, we realise that we do not do a lot that changes anything, but in this case we made the Government aware of the special status of Gibraltar, and that is why this is a common-sense new clause.

Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend rightly says that Ministers and, indeed, the Bill’s promoter, completely forgot about Gibraltarians in this context. He will remember from his time in Committee that they refused to accept our amendment that would have given Gibraltarians the right to vote in any referendum. Does he have any intelligence as to why there has been this U-turn on the part of the Bill’s promoter?

Mr Sheerman: I have been in this House long enough to be grateful for small mercies, and we did, after all, get a change. As I said, it is very unusual to do something in a Bill Committee that one can remember as being quite creative.

It was an unusual Committee, Mr Speaker. I was in full flow at one stage, and when I turned to look at the Public Gallery, the Prime Minister was sitting in on the proceedings. This is a very special Bill—

Mr Speaker: Order. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there is anything unusual either about his being in full flow or about his expectation that the Prime Minister will be listening to him.

Mr Sheerman: I am grateful for that, Mr Speaker.

I will conclude my remarks and hope to be called later in the debate. I am in favour of the new clause, which fits in with the whole tone of the discussion that we had in Committee. The Opposition acted very positively

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in relation to this Bill in trying to refine it and to be supportive. All of us, as a team, tried to work together. We disagreed, but we disagreed in a rather pleasant way.

John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I rise to support new clause 1. The absurd proposal in this group is obviously amendment 43, which seems to suggest that everyone across Europe will vote on this issue, whatever their nationality.

As somebody who supports a referendum on our membership of the EU but would probably vote in favour, I think it very important that UK citizens who live abroad should be entitled to vote. Obviously that is allowed, but people who live in Gibraltar also need to vote. We will eventually need to consider the wider issue of what representation the Crown dependencies have, but that is for another day.

Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): I am most grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for calling me to speak in this debate.

As I am sure the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) will recall, I intervened on him to raise the issue of Gibraltar when we first gathered here on a Friday to discuss this Bill. I think I am accurate in saying that he was rather dismissive of my concerns about the people of Gibraltar and accused me of merely trying to wreck the Bill. I very much welcome the fact that he has had a conversion along the way from here to the Whips Office to get his instructions and back again, and now supports giving the people of Gibraltar the right to take part in this referendum.

We heard an excellent speech from the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), who is one of the leading experts on the overseas territories. I was slightly disappointed, however, that he did not explain the precise reason why it is vital for Gibraltar to have its voice in the referendum. The reason is that under the treaty of Utrecht, which—he may correct me—took place in 1713, the United Kingdom has ownership of Gibraltar for as long as we and the people of Gibraltar should wish it, but should we ever renounce our ownership of the Rock, ownership automatically passes back to Madrid. Therefore, under the treaty, the people of Gibraltar have no ability to seek their own independence. If they were not given their chance to have a say in the referendum, if the United Kingdom chose to leave the EU, they would be placed in the ridiculous situation of having to choose whether they wished to remain part of the European Union or to become Spanish.

That is why I very much welcome the fact that eventually, after six months, the hon. Member for Stockton South and his colleagues have accepted the argument that I tried to make back in July. I look forward to his explaining why it has taken him so long to come to the conclusion that was obvious to us at such an early stage.

Mr Thomas: As regards new clause 1, does my hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful if the Bill’s promoter gave us a little more information about why the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 needs to be referenced in the Bill?

Thomas Docherty: I fully agree. You will recall, Mr Speaker, that on Wednesday evening we had a debate about the use of explanatory statements. As I think the

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House knows, I was a little sceptical about the mandatory nature of that proposal. However, I must confess—as I said, I am not as much of an expert as the hon. Member for Romford—that it would have been helpful in this case, because yesterday there was some genuine confusion about the amendments, with several hon. Members seeking guidance from the Clerks, the Library and elsewhere. I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman did not explain why that particular line was included in the new clause. Does he wish to provide an explanation?

Andrew Rosindell indicated dissent.

Thomas Docherty: No? I am sorry about that, because it has been puzzling me.

I am keen on giving the people of Gibraltar an opportunity to take part in a referendum that will directly affect them. I regret that it has taken us so long to persuade the hon. Member for Stockton South to accept that obvious point about a flaw that has been in his Bill from the very beginning.

Martin Horwood: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), who is right to say that this omission—this flaw in the Bill—was pointed out at a very early stage and that the anomaly of the situation of the people of Gibraltar could have been rectified much earlier. That reflects the nature of the Bill, which in many respects—I am sure we will come on to them—is not very well thought out. It was, in effect, a public relations exercise to cover up the deep division in the Conservative party over the question of whether or not to remain in Europe.

That has been highlighted clearly in today’s edition of The Economist, the front cover of which has a road map that goes onwards and upwards to Great Britain, with a little cul-de-sac off to the right marked “Little England”, accompanied by an image of the European Union symbol with a cross through it. I think that the risk of the little Englander is the real issue behind much of the Bill.

The subject of new clause 1 is Gibraltar. It raises the obvious question of what would happen if Gibraltar exercised an expression of its destiny, as the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) eloquently put it, and voted to remain in the European Union but the UK voted to leave, perhaps with the votes of people in Scotland, which may by then have voted, in theory, to leave the United Kingdom. I am not clear where that would leave Gibraltar. It is included in the European Union only by virtue of the UK’s membership of the EU. It is represented in the European Parliament, not in its own right, but only by virtue of being a British Crown dependency.

Thomas Docherty: If I may briefly correct the hon. Gentleman on two points, he just referred to Gibraltar as a Crown dependency, but I am sure he meant to say that it is an overseas territory. I am sure he also misspoke when he said that it is represented by the United Kingdom when, of course, it has votes in the South West and Gibraltar constituency of the European Parliament.

Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I was talking about representation and was about to point out that Gibraltar is part of the South West

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England and Gibraltar constituency, which also includes my constituency of Cheltenham and is ably represented by Sir Graham Watson. The point is that Gibraltar does not have separate representation in its own right in the European Parliament. The hon. Gentleman is right to correct me on calling it a Crown dependency; it is, of course, an overseas territory. It has many of the same special arrangements as various other territories but, uniquely, it is part of the European Union while other overseas territories and Crown dependencies are not formally part of it.

Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): The hon. Gentleman has said he is not clear where this would leave Gibraltar. Is it not obvious that it would leave it between a Rock and a hard place?

Martin Horwood: That will probably get the hon. Gentleman “quote of the day” in somebody’s column, but I am not sure how well it will go down in Gibraltar. I do not think we should make light of the serious issue of Gibraltar’s future in the European Union, but I value the hon. Gentleman’s humorous contribution.

We could end up in a bizarre situation whereby Gibraltar votes to remain in the EU and the rest of the UK votes to leave it. We face the prospect of going to the effort of accepting this new clause and giving Gibraltarians their say and the ability to express their own view on their own destiny, but then expelling them from the EU against their wishes. I am not clear how that gives Gibraltarians a real say over their destiny.

Andrew Rosindell: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is getting this completely back to front. The people of Gibraltar would vote in a referendum, just like anybody else in the United Kingdom. If the people of Essex chose to stay in the European Union—I am not sure that is going to happen—it would make no difference: we are treated as one country in terms of the EU. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the people of Gibraltar will want to stay with Britain.

Martin Horwood: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is wrong. Gibraltar is not equivalent to Essex in any respect. It is a separate territory and it has self-government. It is not represented in this Parliament. That is a fundamental principle of our relationship with Gibraltar. It is more analogous to Denmark’s relationship with Greenland, which voted in its own right to leave the European Union despite remaining a Danish territory. Greenlanders were given their right to have control over their own destiny, but the Bill does not explain how Gibraltarians would be given that same right should their conclusion in a referendum differ from that of the people of the United Kingdom. The Bill leaves a huge unanswered question, in that it appears, on the face of it, to offer a clear scenario whereby the voters of the United Kingdom could, in effect, expel Gibraltarians from the European Union against their wishes.

10.15 am

Thomas Docherty: I am listening attentively to the hon. Gentleman and, as a Scot, I do not quite follow his logic. Under the new clause, which seems to have cross-party

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support, the people of Gibraltar will get a say in the referendum. If Scotland chooses to stay part of the EU, it would still be bound by the collective result and the same is true of Gibraltar, unless it chooses to cease being part of the United Kingdom. I am struggling to understand why the hon. Gentleman does not see it in that way. Perhaps he could explain further.

Martin Horwood: I will explain. The situation is different from that in Scotland, because Scotland, for the time being at least, remains part of the territory of the United Kingdom, has representation in this Parliament and is represented in Europe by virtue of being part of the UK, not of being a territory of the UK. Gibraltar has self-government and that is a cardinal principle of our relationship with it. Should it at any point decide to join the kingdom of Spain, it could take that step without having to leave the United Kingdom. In effect, we are saying that we would expel Gibraltar from the EU even if it voted to remain in it.

Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman must have misspoken. I think he just said—perhaps I heard him wrong—that Gibraltar could join the kingdom of Spain without leaving the United Kingdom.

Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Yes, he did.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for endorsing me. I do not think the hon. Gentleman meant to say that. He said that Gibraltar is self-governing. It has self-government on many issues, but not all. We still provide its international relations, Home Office functions and defence functions. I think the hon. Gentleman is misspeaking.

Martin Horwood: No, on this occasion I do not think the hon. Gentleman is right. Gibraltar is a UK territory but, like other overseas territories and Crown dependencies, it is not actually part of the United Kingdom. The test is whether there is direct representation in this Chamber.

Thomas Docherty: I really am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman has not had an opportunity to talk to the many Members throughout the House who have a close interest in overseas territories. Overseas territories have a great deal of self-governance, but they still rely on the UK for many of their functions, including defence and foreign affairs. It is not mutually exclusive to say that they have self-governance but that the UK provides many of their functions.

Would the hon. Gentleman also like to take the opportunity to correct the record? It has been endorsed by my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) that he said that Gibraltar could choose to join the kingdom of Spain without leaving the United Kingdom.

Martin Horwood: The reason why Gibraltar could decide to join the kingdom of Spain should it ever want to—obviously, there is no prospect of that in the near future—without leaving the United Kingdom is that it is not formally part of the UK at the moment. We would respect the wishes of Gibraltarians if they ever expressed that desire. They would not have to leave, because they are not formally part of the territory of the United Kingdom itself. They are an overseas territory.

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Thomas Docherty: That’s semantics.

Martin Horwood: It is a rather semantic point. I feel that we are leading the House down something of an angels-dancing-on-a-pinhead diversion, so we should probably move on to more substantial issues. The substantial point that I was trying to make before being entertainingly diverted by the hon. Gentleman was that we could end up in a situation in which the people of Gibraltar voted to remain in the European Union, but were effectively expelled from it by virtue of a United Kingdom referendum. We can leave the debate about the precise nature of Gibraltar’s detachment from the United Kingdom for another time.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Martin Horwood: I am reluctant to take another intervention on this point, because the Members behind me will be getting frustrated, but I will give way.

Huw Irranca-Davies: My intervention is on a different point. Is not a more powerful argument in support of the new clause that there is a strong argument to make to Gibraltarians that their interests are very well served within the EU, particularly because of the importance of the EU to international global treaties on maritime issues, fisheries issues and so on? That is the strong argument that we should make if the new clause is to be passed.

Martin Horwood: That was a much more constructive intervention and it was typically well made by the hon. Gentleman. He is absolutely right that there is a strong case for Gibraltar to remain within the European Union, as there is for the United Kingdom to remain within it, not only because of the issues that he mentioned, but because of the fight against cross-border crime and terrorism and a range of other issues.

Thomas Docherty: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Martin Horwood: All right—one last time.

Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman has not mentioned the most important benefit of the European Union. We have a bully in Spain that has been trying to force its will upon the people of Gibraltar. One of the huge advantages of the European Union, as the people of Gibraltar know, is that it allows them, following the representations of the Minister for Europe and others, to stand up with the United Kingdom to that bully. That would not be happening if they were outside the European Union.

Martin Horwood: I will not rise to that point. It takes us away from the core subject matter of the new clause.

I want to make it clear to Members on both sides of the House that I support the new clause because it aims to correct the anomaly. There are some reassuring parts to it. It is great to know that subsection (2)

“is not to be regarded as restricting the operation in relation to law made by the Gibraltar legislature of the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 (under which colonial laws are void if repugnant to the provision made under an Act of Parliament).”

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I am sure that that will be a massive reassurance to the people of Gibraltar. It is a serious point that it will reassure them that the overall constitutional framework is being respected and not changed by the fact that we are passing legislation in this Chamber that relates to the constitutional position of Gibraltar.

I am happy to support the new clause, although I would be interested to hear what the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) thinks the position would be for Gibraltarians in the event of their voting yes and the United Kingdom voting no. Where would that leave them constitutionally? Would they be able to renegotiate their own separate membership of the European Union? If so, would their membership carry on automatically or would they be in the position that it has been suggested Scotland might be in if it voted for independence, whereby it would leave the European Union automatically and have to reapply as an independent country?

I will not go through the raft of amendments that we are considering in this group one by one. I am sure that that is to the relief of Members behind me. However, some of the amendments, although addressing issues that are critical to the future of the UK and its position within the European Union, run the risk of looking a wee bit frivolous. It is important for those of us who are in favour of a debate on Europe and in favour of European Union membership to retain some credibility.

Mike Gapes: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to refer to amendments that you have selected as valid for this debate as “frivolous”?

Mr Speaker: The substance of the amendments is a matter for debate. I sincerely hope that the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), who has erred rather seriously once already, is not suggesting that it was inappropriate for the Chair to select the amendments. If he thinks that their content is not up to his high standards of intellectual argument, that is a matter for debate. That they were proper amendments to be selected is not a matter for debate, because I selected them. That is the end of it.

Martin Horwood: Heaven forfend that I should question the selection of amendments once again, having been appropriately chastised at the beginning of the debate.

I apologise to the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) if I suggested that he was being frivolous. I am sure that that is not true. I am sure that he was well-meaning in tabling the amendments. What I was highlighting was that those of us who are on the pro-European side of the debate and who want to move on from arcane discussions about the minutiae of referendums to the real issue, which is whether Britain should be in or out, do ourselves no favours if we run the risk of being seen as putting forward anything that might be interpreted as frivolous. If I may put it in those guarded terms, I hope that he will respect my slight warning that we are getting close to dangerous territory.

The one amendment that I will single out is amendment 44, which raises the issue of the voting age. We debated that matter in Committee, but it was not fully resolved. I want to put on the record the long-standing Liberal Democrat commitment to extend democratic voting rights to those of 16 or above. It is important to young people and to the future of our democracy that people who are younger than 18 are given the vote and

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are engaged in political debate, if possible while still at school. Yesterday, I was at Balcarras school, which is an outstanding comprehensive school in Cheltenham. I had a long, gruelling debate with the sixth-formers, who were really engaged in the issues. It must be a frustration to such well-informed observers of the political scene that they cannot vote. We should take every available opportunity to advance the arguments for votes at 16 and this is a good opportunity to do so.

Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman as perplexed as I am that the Government can justify reducing the voting age for a referendum in Scotland on the basis that the young people there will be determining the long-term future of their country in deciding whether it should be in or out of the UK, but will deny them that privilege in a referendum that will determine the long-term future of the entire UK in deciding whether we should be in or out of Europe? Where is the logic and consistency in that?

Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman is drawing me into commenting on the Scottish referendum, which is rather dangerous territory, so I will leave it at saying that I think that votes should be extended to 16-year-olds.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Amendment 44 does not say that we should extend the vote to 16 to18-year-olds in order that they can vote for staying in the European Union. It would give them the franchise. The jury is out on whether they would vote in or out, but it is important that they have a say in the future because it is their future.

Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman again makes a good point. It is the future of those young people that we are debating. This issue is even more important in respect of this referendum than in respect of the wider franchise. In elections, people can change their mind after five years and kick out the Government. This decision will last a generation. The more young people we can involve in the decision, the better.

I will draw my remarks to a close. Important issues are finally being tackled in the amendments that relate to Gibraltar, but they do leave questions unanswered.

Mr Thomas: The hon. Gentleman has understandably focused the majority of his remarks on Gibraltar on the entitlement of its people to vote. May I bring him back to new clause 1 and the intention of the Bill’s promoter to refer to the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 in the Bill? Does he think it would be helpful if the Minister explained to the House why it is necessary to have a piece of outdated, colonial legislation in the Bill?

Martin Horwood: I have already invited the Minister to comment on the new clause in general. In fact, I should really call him the right hon. Member for Aylesbury in this context, not the Minister, since he is not speaking on behalf of the Government. We should be mindful of the issues raised by including such colonial legislation in the Bill, although the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) is probably technically incorrect in calling it outdated, as I believe it is still valid legislation. As I said earlier—

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10.30 am

Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it not the case that anyone speaking from the Dispatch Box on the Government side of the Chamber is speaking on behalf of the Government?

Mr Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. That is the situation—a Minister who speaks from the Treasury Bench is speaking for the Government.

Martin Horwood: That raises an interesting issue that perhaps the Government—both sides of the coalition—should reflect on. I stand corrected for the second time in the space of an hour or so, and I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) for that point of order.

I was drawing my remarks to a conclusion. The key issue is not whether the new clause is right, because I believe it has wide support throughout the House, but the anomalous position in which Gibraltar could be left if it voted to remain in the European Union, but then faced involuntary expulsion from it as a result of the vote of the rest of the United Kingdom—or of the United Kingdom, depending on whether we regard Gibraltar as technically being part of the UK. I should like to hear the Minister’s opinion about that.

Mike Gapes: First, I thank you, Mr Speaker, for selecting a large number of amendments that I tabled and for your ruling that they are entirely valid and not frivolous.

It is important that this parliamentary democracy asserts the primacy of Parliament and its democratic processes. I have received a large number of tweets over the past few days from people who seem to believe that we should move to a plebiscitary form of decision making in this country.

I do not want to diverge from the substance of the debate, so I will concentrate on the new clause and amendments in the group. It is important to understand why there are so many amendments on the franchise to be used in a referendum: because this short Bill is woefully inadequate. It would create a referendum held on the basis of the franchise for parliamentary elections, not European elections, even though it would have enormous implications for the 1.4 million British people living in other European Union countries. It would also affect British people who live elsewhere in the world, perhaps working for companies based in the UK, with families still living in the UK. Their prosperity depends on our membership of the EU.

There would also be enormous implications for the 14 British overseas territories and their populations. New clause 1 rightly addresses the question of Gibraltar, and I am pleased that the Government have clarified their position on that in recent weeks. However, it is not sufficient, because people in other overseas territories, such as the Falkland Islands, would be affected. Our relationship with the EU also has implications for the future of people such as the Chagossians who were expelled from Diego Garcia.

Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill also excludes citizens of other EU countries who may have been resident in this country for many years and have made a huge contribution to its economy?

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Mike Gapes: That is absolutely correct, and I will address that point as I talk in detail about each of my amendments.

Thomas Docherty: I do not fully follow my hon. Friend’s logic; I hope that he will explain it better. We do not allow the people of the Falkland Islands to vote in a Westminster general election even though, as he rightly says, it has a big implication for their future. Will he explain in a little more detail why he thinks they should have a vote in the referendum when they do not participate in a Westminster general election?

Mike Gapes: I will talk about overseas territories’ relationship with the European Union later. Along with the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), I served on European Committee B when we discussed at great length a series of documents about the new relationship between the overseas territories and the EU—I have them with me and may well quote from them. Some overseas territories have become what is called in the jargon “outer areas” of the European Union. For example, the French have overseas territories that not only have the right to be represented in the French Senate, but are defined as territories of the EU. However, the British overseas territories, apart from Gibraltar, are not.

Thomas Docherty: I wrote to the overseas territories a few months ago to inquire about that point, and I know that the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and others have been making a case about it in the Foreign Affairs Committee for some time. There is no great appetite for the UK overseas territories to have representation in the UK Parliament. Will my hon. Friend give us his thoughts on why that is the case?

Mike Gapes: I am a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. In the previous Parliament, we carried out a major inquiry on the overseas territories. They are all different. Some of them are completely depopulated, some have few people, such as the Pitcairn Islands, which I think have 56 or 57 people, and others, such as the Falkland Islands, have a long-standing British population. The people of the Falkland Islands have expressed their self-determination in a vote, but they still suffer serious threats from Argentina.

Gibraltar still has a problem with regard to Spain, which is why new clause 1 is important. The point made by the hon. Member for Cheltenham is valid, because if the United Kingdom were to leave the EU, what would happen to the efforts of the British Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary to get the European Commission President to intervene when Spain puts pressure on Gibraltar? If we were on an exit path or had already left the EU, presumably the Commission would not try to help the citizens of Gibraltar when they were suffering blockades, huge queues and all the other problems that have arisen in recent months. I have not yet mentioned the dispute that has arisen over territorial waters, concrete blocks and fishing access.

Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank my hon. Friend for setting out his lucid argument. Although I support new clause 1 and many of the amendments in the group, we must consider territories that rely not only on the UK’s voice but, in a diverse and asymmetric way, on the EU’s

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voice. I am thinking of my area of expertise, which is fisheries, maritime issues and so on. Those territories’ voices will not be heard, and none of the amendments will enable that to happen. We must consider how their voice can be heard in any future vote to leave the EU.

Mike Gapes: I agree, which was why I tabled a series of amendments relating to the overseas territories. We must also consider Crown dependencies such as Guernsey and Jersey.

Steve McCabe: I am curious about what would happen if the people of Gibraltar voted to remain part of the EU, but the rest of the UK voted to opt out. If Gibraltar then found itself in conflict with Spain, where would we appeal for international support for Gibraltar? What would be the EU’s position?

Mike Gapes: My guess is that if we had left the EU, the rest of the EU would not necessarily regard us as a country to which it owed any favours, to put it mildly. Presumably we could appeal to the United Nations, but given the problems we have had in the so-called Special Committee on Decolonisation in the UN over the years, and the way in which countries such as Argentina have behaved with regard to other British overseas territories, we would be in a difficult position. The people of Gibraltar would be in a very difficult position, because if they wished to stay in the European Union, they would presumably have to find some way of getting Spain to sponsor their membership of the EU. Britain would have deserted and betrayed them.

Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): My hon. Friend makes an excellent point that applies to other British overseas territories that have associate status with the EU and that benefit from trade, sustainable development and regional co-operation. Is he aware, for example, that the Falkland Islands receives, €4 million a year directly through such arrangements? How will their people’s wishes or intentions be considered in this process if they are not included in the franchise?

Mr Kevan Jones: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that we are considering a private Member’s Bill, but is it in order for its promoter, the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), to be taking advice from Foreign Office civil servants in the Box?

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): I say to the hon. Gentleman that it is normal for Ministers to approach the Box, and only Ministers. I did not see anyone approach the Box.

Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): He’s there!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I know where the hon. Gentleman is now thank you, Ms McCarthy, but I am saying that I did not see him approach the Box and I am sure he will not do that. It is supposed to be for Ministers. Having eyes in the back of my head is not a skill I have yet developed, but I am sure the protocol will be observed.

Mr Jones rose—

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Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. There cannot be anything further to that point of order. I have said that Ministers may approach the Box and nobody else should. I am sure that from now on nobody else will, apart from Ministers or their Parliamentary Private Secretaries. Where were we?

Mike Gapes: I was halfway through giving way, Madam Deputy Speaker. Has my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) concluded his intervention?

Mr Bain indicated assent.

Mike Gapes: My hon. Friend has concluded. As an aside, perhaps the solution for the Government would be to appoint the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) as a PPS for today so that such difficulties could be avoided. Perhaps that could be conveyed rapidly to the powers that be.

Steve McCabe: I want to return one last time to the point that my hon. Friend raised about Gibraltar and the situation involving Spain. He said that if the people of Gibraltar wanted to be in the EU but the rest of Britain did not, we might have to appeal to Spain, with whom we would also have some difficulties. He suggested that we would be driven into the arms of Spain. Has he had an opportunity to talk about that to the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), who moved new clause 1, because he has clearly not foreseen that as one of the consequences of his proposal?

10.45 am

Mike Gapes: The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and I have had many discussions, and we were both at the United Nations in Washington last week with the Foreign Affairs Committee. He is my near neighbour; my constituency, like his, is in Greater London and in Essex. I am afraid that we have not discussed the details, but no doubt we will at some point over the next few days or weeks.

Let me return to the reasons behind the many amendments that I have tabled. There is a major problem with the Bill. For example, because the choice has been made to have a franchise based on parliamentary elections, people who would be able to vote in a European election in this country will not be able to participate in the referendum. That means we are in the absurd situation whereby the citizens of some European Union countries will be able to vote in our referendum, but others will not.

For example, a French person living in the UK who is married to a British person and has children at school, growing up, or at university in this country, will not be able to vote in the referendum. Someone from the Republic of Ireland, Malta or Cyprus will be able to vote, however, because Malta and Cyprus are in the Commonwealth, and Commonwealth citizens, along with British citizens, are able to vote in parliamentary elections. Because of our long-standing arrangements with the Irish Republic, even though it is not in the Commonwealth, citizens of the Republic of Ireland are able to vote in parliamentary elections and to stand for Parliament in this country. The measures in the Bill mean that we will exclude people who are settled with families in the UK, and who have a long-standing

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relationship with this country, from voting on whether to wrench apart the UK from their European country, yet we will be allowing other people who are not British to vote in our referendum.

Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman’s interesting point raises an intriguing prospect. If the referendum were to be as finely balanced as other referendums around the world have been, it might be the votes of Irish citizens, Scots who may have voted to leave the United Kingdom, Commonwealth citizens and others that actually change the result.

Mike Gapes: Absolutely. A large number of my constituents come from many parts of the world. There are British Pakistanis, British Indians, British Bangladeshis, British Somalis—all kinds of people. When they get British citizenship they can, of course, vote in our elections, but some choose to retain citizenship of another state. I have a close friend who is a local councillor in my constituency. He has a British passport, but his wife has kept an Indian passport, even though they have sons who are in their 30s and they have been living in this country for decades. Because his wife is an Indian citizen, that facilitates them when they go back to India, rather than meaning that there are problems with visas. She is able to vote in British elections and, as a Commonwealth citizen, she will be able to vote in this referendum. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that a constituent is married to someone from a non-Commonwealth country, such as Somalia or the United States. They are not allowed to vote in our parliamentary elections, so they will not be able to vote in the referendum. The Government are increasing the number of anomalies. European Union rules allow citizens of any EU country to vote in European elections; indeed, they allow people to stand for the European Parliament in any EU state, whatever their nationality.

Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution and referring to matters that relate specifically to my family, given that my husband has dual citizenship, as does my mother-in-law. Does he agree that the right of European citizens living in the UK to participate in the referendum is a particular issue for those of us with London constituencies that are home to huge numbers of French, German and Spanish citizens, who perhaps know best about the importance of relationships between countries in the European Union?

Mike Gapes: I might be wrong, but I understand that London is the fifth largest French city. We live in a globalised world. People come to London to give to our country and contribute to our prosperity. One reason for the dynamism and growth in the London economy is that we have attracted the brightest and best people from many European countries, and yet we will not allow them to vote on the future of the place where they have their families and connections, and to which they have made a contribution.

Mr Kevan Jones: It is not just London. An individual in Durham who is an American citizen has lived here for 34 years. He runs a very successful business and his

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wife is English. Clearly, the Bill will affect his business, but he will not be allowed to have a say on whether the UK is part of the EU.

Mike Gapes: I agree with my hon. Friend. There are huge implications for the economy and our people should we leave the EU. However, the debate is on the Bill and not the wider issues, so I will not be drawn down that path.

Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend tickled me when he described London as the fifth largest French city—he must not forget the London Welsh contingent. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) has turned around from the Front Bench to express sympathy. On a serious point, the forensic analysis that my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) applies and the anomalies he exposes make me wonder whether introducing a referendum in the shape of a private Member’s Bill—hon. Members have proposed right-minded amendments—has given the Electoral Commission sufficient time to look at the Bill in detail and raise similar concerns.

Mike Gapes: We will discuss the Electoral Commission’s report on the wording of the question when we speak to another group of amendments. The commission clearly takes a different view from the Government on the question, but that issue is not for this group of amendments. I do not know about the commission’s detailed views on the issues I am discussing, so I will not comment on them.

Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend misspoke very slightly earlier when he referred to the general election franchise, but that is not quite true, because Members of the other place would have a vote. On a more substantive point, in the referendum that we in Scotland have next year on whether we should leave the EU, European Union citizens will be granted the vote. I did not support that, but given that the Government supported EU citizens having the right to vote on that precedent on that occasion, should they not be given the right to vote on whether the whole of the UK leaves the EU?

Mike Gapes: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and that is why I have tabled amendments that would apply either the local government franchise or the European Parliament franchise. That would meet his point about Scotland.

I was going to come to the question of prisoners later—not prisoners, Members of the House of Lords. [Interruption.] I said prisoners because, under our present law, Members of the House of Lords, lunatics and prisoners are excluded from voting in elections to the House of Commons. The Government propose to modify that to allow peers to vote in the referendum, but not lunatics or prisoners. I have tabled an amendment on prisoners—I was unable to get an amendment on lunatics on the amendment paper. My point is that the Government are making a constitutional change in the relationship between the Houses of Parliament and in the role of Members in the other place. Are the Government proposing that Members of the other place should vote in the referendum? I referred to the Government—I must apologise; I meant the part of the Government that is

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putting forward the proposal. They need to clarify why they think that it is appropriate to change that long-standing relationship.

Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): My hon. Friend is expertly disentangling all the anomalies and contradictions in the Bill and the franchise, but does he agree that in respect of Gibraltar there is another one which has wider implications? A quarter of a million or so British citizens live in Spain. Some may have served this country with distinction fighting in our armed forces; others may have been in receipt of an honour from Her Majesty the Queen; and others may be working for Britain in companies in countries such as Spain. A quarter of a million people living just across the water from Gibraltar will not have a vote, but Gibraltarians will have one. What is the logic of that?

Mike Gapes: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is no logic to the proposal; it is absurd. As I said in my introductory remarks, 1.4 million British citizens live elsewhere in the EU. Only those who have registered as overseas voters may vote in the referendum. The law says that one must have been away from the UK for no more than 15 years and specifically register as an overseas voter. The figures I have seen show that there were fewer than 20,000 registered overseas voters in December 2012. The future of the 1.4 million British people living elsewhere in the EU could be seriously and adversely affected by the consequences of a referendum that leads to withdrawal, but they will not be given a say.

Some might register, but many may have been living abroad for longer than 15 years. Since I tabled my proposal, I received, on 5 November, an e-mail from Mr Brian Cave, who lives in France. He states:

“I, myself, have lived in France for over 15 years and thereby am disenfranchised. That of course is wrong. To further not be permitted to vote in any IN/OUT referendum is an appalling double insult for any British Citizen in Europe. We, who would be most closely affected, must have a vote in this.”

Millions of people could be damaged. More than 1 million British citizens live elsewhere in the EU—in Spain, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) has said, in Portugal, in France or elsewhere. Many are pensioners, but some live in France and work in London. Some have their families in France but contribute regularly to British companies and businesses. It is rumoured—I do not know whether this is true—that even Members of this House sometimes live in France. It is therefore important that we understand that the Government are not allowing a large number of British citizens to have a vote in the referendum. One of my amendments would make it possible for British people living in all EU countries to have a vote in it.

Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that many people will have sold their houses here and retired to Spain, for example? I am sure a lot of people from Romford have retired to Spain to a better life and winter sunshine. Disfranchising those people is anomalous in the sense that they are the ones who will be directly affected if we withdraw from the EU.

Mike Gapes: That is absolutely true. The Government—[Interruption.] I am sorry; I meant to say the Minister. Given the earlier ruling, I assume he will speak for the Government. He will need to clarify why we are not

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allowing those British citizens to vote in the referendum. After all, the devolution referendums held by the previous Government in 1999 were conducted under the local government franchise, which allowed EU citizens to vote. My proposal would widen that so that British citizens everywhere could vote.

11 am

Steve McCabe: May I take my hon. Friend back to the point he made about the Members of the other place having the right to vote? That raises the concern that several of us have had from the outset about the wisdom of addressing such a constitutionally far-reaching measure in a private Member’s Bill. In particular, has he sought any advice on the implications of the Bill’s consideration in the other place? Will Members there have to declare an interest or say how they intend to vote in such a referendum? Will they have to disbar themselves from taking part in the debate? As far as I can see, this is new constitutional territory.

Mike Gapes: It is difficult enough for me to contemplate the implications of rulings from the Chair in this Chamber without tying myself in knots over how the Lord Speaker would deal with such issues should they be raised with her in the other place. It would be best to put that issue on the agenda for the other place if it comes to consider this Bill. It will have to deal with that issue at that point. I do not have a view on or any detailed knowledge of how it would be dealt with at that time.

I want to be clear about the important differences between the amendments I have tabled. Amendment 43 would allow people with the right of abode in the United Kingdom to vote in this referendum, because it would affect them. Would they be expelled from the European Union? Would they no longer have the right to travel freely to the 27 other member states?

As I have already said, amendment 45 concerns those who are entitled to vote as electors in a European Parliament election, such as all the residents of the UK who are citizens of Austria, Latvia, Estonia, Italy, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, the Czech Republic or Slovakia—I will not list all the other 27 member states, but there are a lot of them. Some of those people gain the full benefit of our education system and contribute to our society in many ways, just as British people living in other European countries benefit from their systems. We have seen recent reports that say that more British people are on welfare benefits in other EU countries than people from other EU countries living in the UK on benefits. If we were to leave the European Union, what would happen to those British people’s right to reside in those other European countries and benefit from the facilities, social security systems and other amenities of those countries? These are issues of great importance, but British people living in other countries would not be allowed to vote in the referendum, and nor would European Union citizens living in this country. That would be wrong, because the decision would have profound, long-term implications for them. That is why we need proper parliamentary scrutiny of it, which we are beginning here today. I hope that we will be able to continue it over the coming weeks and months.

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Amendment 46 relates to the local government franchise, which is the basis for the Scottish referendum. In my opinion, there are no strong arguments against that. I have already covered amendment 47, which addresses the issue of those British citizens resident in any of the member states of the European Union.

Amendment 48 refers to the rights of prisoners to vote. Interesting statements have been made recently by the Government’s senior law officers, but the position is confused on whether some—if not all—prisoners will be given the right to vote. The Bill is silent on that issue, but if the Government’s position changes in the next few months—despite the clear vote of this House against giving votes to prisoners—we would need to discuss it in some detail. There would be implications if the European Court maintains its judgment that some prisoners should be given the right to vote, not just for parliamentary elections but for the franchise for any referendum on leaving the European Union. That is why I have tabled the amendment.

Amendment 8 would clarify the basis on which people would be able to vote. At present, overseas voters can register under the 15-year rule using the address of the local authority area in which they had lived previously. The amendment would allow people to register to vote at a British embassy or high commission. It is deplorable that only 20,000 people living elsewhere in the European Union have the entitlement to vote under the 15-year rule. Some 1.4 million British people live in other European Union countries and we should be trying to find ways to encourage them to register. To reduce the bureaucratic hurdles, the easiest way to do that would be to allow people in Spain, say, to contact the British embassy in Madrid; people in Portugal to go to Lisbon; people in France to go to Paris; and so on. Similarly, if we were to change the franchise to allow British citizens living anywhere in the world to take part in the referendum, we should allow them to go to the British high commissions in Delhi or other countries of the Commonwealth.

I have touched on amendment 44 and I know that other hon. Members will wish to speak on it. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) mentioned the age at which people can vote in the Scottish separatist referendum, and the UK referendum should be held on the same basis. Young people have a great interest in the future of the European Union. I would hope, therefore, that they would be able to take part.

Thomas Docherty: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mike Gapes: No, I am afraid I want to conclude my remarks, because other Members wish to speak.

The Crown dependencies, including their very important financial institutions, would also be affected, so should be allowed to vote. We have discussed British overseas territories, so I will not spend any longer on that point, and we have also talked about Gibraltar at length. The important point is this: my amendments expose the Bill’s inadequacy and need for proper consideration and scrutiny. I hope the House will provide that and support at least some of my amendments.

The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): In response to the point from my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), I wish to make it

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clear that, in respect of this Bill, as has been the case with at least one or two other Bills since the 2010 general election, the two governing parties have agreed to differ in their approaches to a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU.

I want to address the various points made about Gibraltar.

Martin Horwood: Given the point of order raised by the sage and right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), will the Minister clarify in what capacity he is now speaking?

Mr Lidington: I am speaking as a Minister at the Foreign Office and, as always, as a member of the Conservative party to make clear my view of the amendments and, in particular, to respond to the points made in Committee by Members representing different political parties about extending the franchise to the people of Gibraltar.

Mr Kevan Jones: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Lidington: I have taken advice on this matter, including legal advice, so that I can be confident of giving the House an accurate commentary on the effects of the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton).

Mr Jones: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Lidington: In Committee, I undertook to review this question, in response to points made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), who I do not think is in his place any longer, and by other Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members who argued that Gibraltarians should receive the franchise, in view of the fact that Gibraltar was perhaps uniquely affected among our overseas territories by the question of Britain’s membership, or otherwise, of the EU.

Mr Jones: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Lidington: Now, the United Kingdom—

Mr Jones: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): It had better be a point of order, Mr Jones.

Mr Jones: The convention in the House is that if Members seek to intervene, the speaker usually acknowledges them and either says no or yes. I would like some guidance, because the Minister has been completely ignoring those trying to get in.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Mr Jones, you know full well that that is not a point of order. It is entirely up to the Minister or the Member who has the Floor to decide to whom they give way, but perhaps the Minister could indicate to the House whether he wishes to make some progress.

Mr Lidington: Members from all three main parties have made some serious points about Gibraltar.

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Mr Jones: Will the Minister give way?

Mr Lidington: I intend to continue with my remarks and respond to the points made about new clause 1 and then to respond briefly to the points made by the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), so I do not intend to give way to those who are seeking to intervene at the moment.

Under the 2006 constitution of Gibraltar, the United Kingdom is responsible for Gibraltar’s external relations, including its membership of international organisations. For example, the United Kingdom would be at risk of infraction proceedings if the Government of Gibraltar failed to implement EU legislation. Gibraltar’s association with the EU is itself founded on the UK’s membership and the terms of Gibraltar’s association are set out in declaration 55 attached to the treaties of the European Union. To those hon. Members who have asked, “What would happen if in 2017 the UK voted to leave the EU?”, the answer is that in subsequent negotiations about the UK’s future relationship with the EU, the future relationship of Gibraltar with the EU and the acquis would have to form one aspect of those considerations.

11.15 am

Gibraltar is not a party to the whole of the EU acquis. For example, it is not part of the single European market for the free transit of goods. As I promised in Committee, I have consulted the Chief Minister of Gibraltar about his Government’s wishes, and he has advised me that they wish the franchise for this proposed referendum to be extended to the citizens of Gibraltar. Having taken advice, I am confident that the wording of my hon. Friend’s new clause would give proper effect to that wish by enfranchising Gibraltarians.

Hon. Members have asked about subsections (2) and (3) of new clause 1. To some extent, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham answered this point by saying that they were designed to make it clear that the underlying constitutional order, expressed in the 2006 Gibraltar constitution, remained untouched. Under current arrangements, the franchise for European parliamentary elections in Gibraltar is determined by an Act of the Gibraltarian Parliament and Government, rather than by this House. In this case, however, the new clause proposes that the UK Parliament set the terms of a franchise that, for the purposes of this referendum, would include Gibraltar. For that reason, subsections (2) and (3) make it clear that despite this particular instance, that underlying constitutional relationship—the 2006 constitution gives far-reaching internal powers of self-government to the elected Administration in Gibraltar—remains undisturbed.

Mr Thomas: I am following very clearly the Minister’s attempted explanation for why subsections (2) and (3) should be written into the Bill. Essentially, I am struggling to understand why he thinks there might be some problem with Gibraltan law preventing the smooth running of a referendum in Gibraltar. Is not the reference to the Colonial Laws Validity Act 1865 a bit of overkill?

Mr Lidington: No, it is not overkill. This is a sensible piece of legislative drafting designed to put it beyond the risk of any misunderstanding or misinterpretation

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that the underlying constitutional relationship would remain undisturbed, despite the specific and exceptional provisions of the Bill. I would say gently to the hon. Gentleman that if he looks back at the Committee proceedings, he will find that his predecessor as shadow Europe Minister, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), was among those arguing and tabling amendments to extend the franchise to people in Gibraltar through the vehicle of this Bill.