Unfortunately, what was already a complex debate on justice and home affairs issues is being made more complex by the Government’s deep-rooted anxieties about all things European. What should be a cool, calm and rational debate about measures designed to help

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the fight against crime risks being overshadowed by the Conservative party’s wider palpitations about the European Union. Nevertheless, today’s debate has been good-humoured, and many serious points have been made. I trust that the Government will respond to them, as they surely must.

Labour Members have made it clear that we do not oppose the principle of opt-outs. That is why we negotiated the power in the first place. The various Select Committee reports have confirmed that some of the original measures are redundant in any event, and that it would make no difference whether we were in some of them or not. My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) listed a number of those measures.

Mr Cash: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on 27 June 2007—the very day on which he handed the reins of power to his successor—the former Prime Minister Mr Tony Blair stated that it was absolutely clear that we had an opt-out from the charter of fundamental rights, and also from justice and home affairs? What he did not mention was the fact that the overall system contained a power to rejoin.

Sadiq Khan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding us all of his excellent memory of historical facts and dates. I am afraid that I cannot comment on that particular remark by Tony Blair, although I can comment on most of his remarks.

There is clearly concern about the way in which the Government have gone about seeking—or rather not seeking—the views of Parliament, and the lack of votes on this matter. Today we heard from three Select Committee Chairs: the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). I shall not repeat the unprecedented criticisms of the Government’s approach by not one but three Select Committees, namely the European Scrutiny Committee, the Home Affairs Committee and the Justice Committee. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) expressed concern about the lack of consultation with the Scottish Government, and a number of other Members in all parts of the House referred to the lack of scrutiny being given to the decisions on which the Government are embarking.

Labour Members will approach the substance of the issues on the basis of what will help us in the fight against crime, rather than what will help us to ensure that our Back Benchers are soothed and reassured, which has been the Government’s approach. I wait to hear what the Justice Secretary has to say on the issues that have been raised today, but I live in hope that, rather than hearing the usual EU-bashing or ECHR-trashing, we shall hear a considered response to the important issues raised by Government Back Benchers and, indeed, by other Members in all parts of the House.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford has already described in detail our views on many of the measures that the Government are proposing to opt back into. Let me now touch briefly on some of the measures that fall into my own

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area of responsibility. They were dealt with in the Justice Committee’s report, and, today, in the excellent speech of its Chair, the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed.

The Government propose to opt back in to five of the six mutual recognition measures, which we welcome. On the financial penalties framework decision, it is right that member states collect financial penalties regardless of which country the offender lives in. There should be no hiding place for offenders just because they live in a different country from where their crime was committed. The measure has been used considerably over the last few years. The Justice Committee confirmed that in just the short period between June 2010 and September 2012 we received penalties collected by other member states of £90,000 and collected for other members £50,000 in penalties.

On the previous convictions framework decision, courts must take account of a defendant’s previous conviction in other member states. Even the Justice Secretary has conceded that this measure was needed and is not part of a Europeanisation of our justice system, but is in fact central to our efforts in fighting crime. This is a key tool in helping us to fight crime and allowing our courts to have access to information from other member states on previous convictions.

Prison transfers are a massive issue, and not only within the European Union. Just last week Jamaica refused to ratify a transfer agreement with the UK which would have seen many of the Jamaicans behind bars in our jails sent back home to serve their sentences. We know it costs around £40,000 a year to keep someone in a UK prison, and with more than 10,000 foreign nationals behind bars—1 in 8 of the whole prison population—that represents a cost of £400 million a year to keep foreign criminals in British jails. If for nothing else, for purely financial reasons we should be doing more to send back to their home countries those foreign nationals who have committed crimes on our soil. The Prime Minister made big and wild promises back in 2010 personally to intervene to send back tens of thousands of criminals, but that is yet another broken promise to add to the long list. Since then, only a handful have been returned to their home countries.

To be fair, I accept that there are difficulties in negotiating prisoner transfer agreements with other countries. The setting up of the EU prisoner transfer framework, signed in November 2008 and brought into force in December 2011, was not a walk in the park, and I sympathise with the problems all Governments have had in negotiating these agreements. However, with about one third of all foreign nationals in our prisons being from the EU, this ought to make a difference to the numbers behind bars. I note that the Justice Committee reports that more needs to be done, and the Justice Secretary might want to tell us about some of the problems he has been having in negotiating these agreements in relation to the opt-in.

It would also be useful if the Justice Secretary were to tell us what else he is doing to make sure other member countries are stepping up to the plate on this issue. To date, too many are not playing a full part in the scheme, meaning that the scheme as originally planned and the agreement that has been signed have not borne the fruit we all would have liked to see.

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The Government also propose to opt back into the judgments in absentia framework decision and the European supervision order, both of which play a key role in stopping criminals evading justice and allowing citizens to be returned to their home country for a period of non-custodial pre-trial supervision. Out of the mutual recognition instruments, the only measure the Government have chosen not to opt back into is the probation measures framework decision, but from reading the explanation given by Ministers it is clear that there is not a principled objection to this framework decision; there is rather a concern about how it might operate in practice. Will the Justice Secretary tell us more about his views on where the concerns may lie in practice rather than in principle?

Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Unfortunately, I did not have time to give notice that I would participate in this debate; we only got notice of it yesterday.

I have a constituent whose father went to the courts in this country under the European arrest warrant and was told that the EAW was not to be enacted here and it was not valid. He thought he was free and he travelled to the Netherlands with his wife, but was arrested on arriving there. He is now in Poland. He is a seriously ill man in hospital, but it would appear that the Government have not put in place measures to allow the courts of this country to make a decision on an EAW and then to make it clear to other countries that they do not believe it to be valid. It gives people in this country the odd feeling that they are not likely to be arrested throughout Europe under an EAW which can then still be enacted elsewhere.

Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend gives one of the many examples of how there can be problems operating the EAW in practice. We hope that during the course of the negotiations on the changes to which the Home Secretary referred, some of the problems that have been shown in real time are addressed.

The Government have chosen not to rejoin all six of the minimum standard measures. They cover corruption involving officials; counterfeiting of the euro—there are two on this; fraud; counterfeiting of non-cash means of payment; and corruption in the private sector. In these cases, the Government argue that UK law is already of a sufficiently high standard to meet or exceed the requirements. My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary went through some of the other areas the Government have chosen not to opt back into, which are redundant because of the progress made over the past few years.

The Chairs of the European Scrutiny Committee, the Home Affairs Committee and the Justice Committee reminded us that for the first time in history three Select Committees have come together with a joint report, all expressing unhappiness with how the Government have approached the process of the opt-out and opt-in. I am not going to rehearse the points they made. They have concerns about the lack of impact assessments, the fact that there is no motion that can be amended let alone voted on, and the fact that colleagues in the House of Commons will not get a chance to debate and vote on the measures the Government decide to opt into or out of until it is too late.

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The hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) made an honest and refreshing speech about the different perspective he has from those who speak on behalf of his party in government. He explained his support for the opt-out and not the opt-in. His speech was followed by the most different speech we could have heard. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire explained his unhappiness about the fact that the Government had not consulted the Scottish Government. He lives in hope that the referendum in September may lead to a different perspective for the people of Scotland, but he also, in a weird part of his speech, sought to argue that we are better together with the EU but that Scotland was not better together with the rest of the UK. That was an interesting argument.

The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) made a very interesting speech, too. She is one of the founders of the Fresh Start group and expressed concern about the lack of democratic accountability and flexibility, and referred to the House of Lords scrutiny Committee. I agreed with her when she said that the status quo with the EU is not an option, however. She made a useful speech.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) was scathing in his critique of the Government, which is nothing less than we would all expect. He talked about his concerns about the priorities and processes by which we got to where we are, and he repeated the question he posed in the Home Secretary’s speech about what Parliament would be allowed to vote on and when. He referred to the options the Government have—primary legislation, a statutory instrument, a treaty or a motion with the ability for it to be amended or not.

I am not sure whether the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary should be worried that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) said he agreed with and supported the approach they were taking. He mentioned his concerns about the impact on Europol in particular if there was any time lag, and also about the benefits of co-operation.

The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) will not thank me for saying this, but I thoroughly enjoyed his speech. He said he was speaking up for the authentic voice of the Eurosceptic Conservative party, and he reminded us of his analysis of whether the opt-in would be a transfer of power and why in his view that demands a referendum. He argued that, because the European Commission and the ECJ were now in play, that should involve a transfer of power. I am sure that the Justice Secretary will respond directly to that point.

I also enjoyed the speech from the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), who used his six years’ experience as a Foreign Office lawyer to explain why he felt that these matters were more about political will than about the advice given by civil servants. He gave examples of some of the real-life cases that had been challenged as a consequence of the European arrest warrant. I hope that we can seek improvement now that we have that empirical evidence. He challenged all of us to provide empirical evidence to persuade the British public of the need for better co-operation with our European partners. That is a challenge that we all need to take up, especially in the light of the Deputy Prime Minister having been trounced by Nigel Farage in their two recent debates. We need to have the facts at our fingertips when we have this debate.

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The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) also made an interesting speech. He reminded us of what I am sure he will not mind me calling the miscarriages of justice in the past few years as a consequence of the European arrest warrant. He was scathing in his attack on the approach to the European Union taken by his friends, the Liberal Democrats. I am sure he will not mind me saying that we expect nothing less from him.

We have had a good debate, which has lasted just over four hours. A lot of questions have been asked, and I look forward to hearing the answers from the Justice Secretary over the next 15 minutes. Let us hope he can finally answer them.

7.31 pm

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling): I should like to start by expressing my thanks to all those who have spoken in the debate today. I shall address some of the points that they have raised, but I should first like to make a couple of observations.

My views on matters European are well known. British justice is the envy of the world, and I will not countenance any attempt to replace it with a pan-European justice system. It would be entirely wrong for Britain to hand over control of Justice and Home Affairs entirely to the European Union or its Court of Justice and, under this Government, that is not going to happen. Those who were here for the debate a couple of weeks ago on the three recent proposals from the Commission will have heard us putting forward this Government’s intentions loud and clear on matters that we all believe would be an unnecessary and unwarranted intrusion on our justice system.

Mark Reckless: The Secretary of State says that he does not want to hand over powers over Justice and Home Affairs to the European Union entirely. Is he happy to hand them over in part?

Chris Grayling: If I may, I shall answer that question by setting out for my hon. Friend where we stand.

The House will be aware that more than 130 justice and home affairs measures were due to come under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in December 2014, as a result of the Lisbon treaty signed by the previous Government. It is important to point out to my hon. Friends that this Government have secured the opt-out. Had we not been able to reach agreement on that, we would have been required under the terms of the treaty to participate in all those 130-plus measures. The opt-out has been a significant step—[Interruption.] I hear chuckles from the Opposition Benches, but I have to say that, although we have heard complaints and criticism from them this afternoon, it was the Labour Government who set up the process. They negotiated the opt-out, but they now appear to be trying to disown what they did, and to claim that the process we are now going through is nothing to do with them. It was they who negotiated the process, and it was they who set out the way in which we would have to address these issues. Their arguments on this are therefore completely bankrupt.

The Lisbon treaty clearly paved the way for the creation of a European justice area, and that system is now beginning to take shape. The European Commission

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is pushing ahead, with the latest justice scorecard just one signal of its intent. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) talked about some of the things that the Commissioner had been doing recently. She was explicit earlier this year when she said:

“We need a true political union. To me this means that we need to build a United States of Europe”.

She has set out her ambition to have a common justice area by 2020. Let me be clear: that is not something I want, it is not something the British people want, and with the Conservatives in government, it is not something this country will ever sign up to. Indeed, I trust that no future Government of any political persuasion would take this country down that route, despite the Opposition’s rather mealy-mouthed answers today on where they stand on these matters.

That is why it was important that the Prime Minister exercised our opt-out in July last year to ensure that Britain did not become part of a common European justice system, and that is why we continue to assert our right to opt out when Brussels brings forward new legislation in this area. This Government are protecting our national interest and standing up for Britain, whereas Labour typically just ran up the white flag over many years.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Lord High Chancellor for giving way, not least because we are relying on him, as the last bastion, to stop this happening. The problem seems to be that we have opted out of 98 things that do not matter, and that some of the 35 things that we are opting back into matter enormously. To call that a repatriation of powers is terminological inexactitude.

Chris Grayling: I set out clearly to the House at the start of this process where I believe we stand. We are absolutely set against the creation of a European justice area and against the Europeanisation of our laws, but we also have a duty to our citizens to fight international crime, and I do not want us to be outside the battle against it. Earlier, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary set out clearly the message that she has received from groups involved in fighting organised crime about the need to take the necessary measures to do so. She has clearly and robustly set out what she believes to be in the UK national interest on that front.

The shadow Justice Secretary, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), talked about the challenge posed by foreign national offenders, and I want us to be part of pan-European arrangements to return foreign national offenders as quickly as possible. He said that he hoped I was not going to give the House what I think he called another rant against the ECHR. I would simply draw the House’s attention to one or two recent Court decisions taken under the European Court of Human Rights framework that have actually prevented us from sending prisoners back to other countries. I hope that that situation will change very soon.

Mr Cash: My right hon. Friend might recall giving evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee in respect of the charter of fundamental rights, which has a significant overlap in relation to the rights of the citizen and which, of course, relates indirectly to the European convention on human rights. This is very special, however,

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because Labour actually wanted to prevent the charter of fundamental rights from applying in the United Kingdom and took what the then Prime Minister described as a clear opt-out. However, my right hon. Friend knows that we now have an Act of Parliament saying one thing and a Court of Justice ruling saying another. What is he going to do about that? Is he going to adopt our proposal to amend the European Communities Act?

Chris Grayling: Let us be clear: what the last Government said about the charter of fundamental rights was simply an untruth. There are many quotes in which they clearly talked about an opt-out from the charter, but that opt-out does not exist. We on the Government Benches have our differences on aspects of human rights law, but there is unity across the coalition on the role and presence of the charter of fundamental rights. None of us wishes to see it become part of UK law, and none of us wishes the ambitions of some in Brussels who talk about it being extended into national law come to pass. We will resist that absolutely. As my hon. Friend knows, we are testing the current legal position in the courts, and I have no doubt that I will be giving further evidence on this subject to his Committee in the near future.

Michael Connarty: I am sure that we will debate the charter of fundamental rights report, which divided the European Scrutiny Committee when it was finally read. To return to a question I asked earlier: why are the Government still in the situation where a UK court can decide that a European arrest warrant is not valid and that the person does not have to return to the country demanding their return—in the case I am interested in, that country is Poland—but when they leave the UK to go on holiday elsewhere in Europe, it appears that the Government have not put in place the ability to have that judgment recognised in other countries. I have a constituent whose father is very ill, and who is now in Poland, having been arrested in the Netherlands—

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. We have got the point. Let us not make these interventions too long.

Chris Grayling: I say to the hon. Gentleman that it would not be right for me to deal with a constituency case at the Dispatch Box. I suggest he write to the Home Secretary about that. I am still confused as to what he wants, however. He appears to be expressing scepticism about the European arrest warrant, but his party’s policy is to rejoin it. I am confused about what the Opposition really want. We have set out a clear view for Parliament, but we still do not know where the Labour party stands on all this.

I am grateful, too, for the excellent work done by the European Scrutiny Committee, the Justice Committee and the Home Affairs Committee, not only through their extremely thorough and thought-provoking reports, but through the contributions their members have made on the Floor of this House. Their work has been and will continue to be important in informing the Government’s view as this process proceeds. May I express my particular thanks to the Chair of the Justice Committee for his analysis of the decisions we took earlier? Extremely important issues are involved and we gave them careful

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thought, and I am glad that his report recognised the process we have gone through and that he felt we had reached the right decisions in that area.

Let me touch briefly on the issue of the amount of time provided to this House, which a lot of right hon. and hon. Members have raised today. Last summer, we gave this House a clear opportunity, which it took, to support the Government’s decision in principle to exercise the opt-out, and I am grateful to the House for giving us that support. We will come back to the House at the conclusion of the negotiations with the Commission and the Council to offer the House the further opportunity to endorse or reject what we are doing. If this House rejects what we are doing, clearly it will not be possible for us to return to the Commission and simply override the view of this House. We will of course give this House an opportunity to vote and decide what should happen, but I do think the House needs to give the Government the opportunity to negotiate unfettered by a fixed mandate, because these are complex issues and we need to reach the right decisions in the interests of this country. That is what we are seeking to do.

Sadiq Khan: The Justice Secretary just said that he would give the House a chance to “endorse or reject”, but will he give it the chance to amend?

Chris Grayling: We will discuss the detail of that motion in due course, but of course we will give the House the opportunity to express a very clear view on the conclusion of the negotiations that we have reached. That is what we said at the start and it is what we will deliver.

We have been through detailed discussions both with the Select Committees and within the Government. We are now going through detailed discussions with the Commission and we will return with the conclusions in due course.

Pete Wishart: There is one group the Justice Secretary has not had any discussions with: the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies. Given that this has such a significant impact on our delivery of devolved services, why has he not listened to the Government in Scotland and the devolved Assemblies in Wales and Northern Ireland?

Chris Grayling: With respect, what the hon. Gentleman says is simply not right. We have had extensive discussions with the devolved Assemblies. The Minister for Security and Immigration has had detailed discussions with the devolved Assemblies, I have been involved in detailed discussions with the devolved Administrations and I believe the Home Secretary has had discussions. We have had extensive discussions and will no doubt continue to do so. We discuss issues with our counterparts in Edinburgh and in Northern Ireland all the time, and we will continue to do so.

Let me deal with the specific issues raised in this debate. The shadow Home Secretary began for the Opposition, and I am still at a loss to know whether Labour supports the list of 35 measures: whether Labour supports what we are putting forward or wants to see a different list. It is absolutely unclear what the Labour party’s view is; we heard a long diatribe from her and a long list of accusations, but no clear policies from the other side. We heard much the same from the shadow Justice Secretary, but I give him credit for picking out

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one or two measures on the Justice side that he did support, although he did not say whether he supported the minimum standards measures decision we had taken. One way or another, at the end of this debate we have little idea what the Opposition stand for.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) made a typically knowledgeable contribution. He talked about the importance of the issue of European Court of Justice jurisdiction and about the charter of fundamental rights, which is doubtless an issue he and I will return to and discuss extensively. We share the aspiration, aim and absolute clear goal that the charter will not become part of national law in this country. We heard from the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, who is no longer in his place. He talked about the timetable as we work towards 1 December. We need to be very clear that a timetable is already set out for us, as envisaged in the treaty signed by the previous Government, and we are working towards that date of 1 December. We need time to complete the negotiations and, on the back of those, formally apply to the Commission to rejoin the measures. That is precisely where we stand; that is the approach we are taking and it is the approach envisaged in the agreement reached by the previous Government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) does not want to opt in to any of these measures. I would simply remind him that we secured agreement to exercise the opt-out in the first place. Were we not in that position, we would now face the situation of opting in to all these measures or remaining in all of them. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) set out his concerns about the issue of discussions with the devolved Assemblies, mentioning them again a few moments ago. He made a strong statement, which I suspect had a little more to do with certain campaigning taking place in Scotland than with this debate. The bit I did not understand was that he was talking about the risks he alleged this Government were taking with our relationships within the European Union, yet he and his party are going down a route whereby it is far from clear that if they are successful—heaven forbid—in September, they will even be a part of the European Union. I do not understand how he possibly squares that circle.

We heard a thoughtful speech from my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), who has done valuable work in the Fresh Start group. I understand her concern about the ability of international courts to extend their jurisprudence. She also made the point about the charter of fundamental rights, and it is very important that we keep a close watch on that issue and resist any attempts to extend its remit. We know that there is a divide in opinions between the Government and the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), and he made an impassioned speech about the need for more and more integration. He set out clear differences between us and him, although he could not tell the difference between Spain and Brazil in his comments. It was a typically robust contribution that highlighted to us why there remain some significant divisions across the Floor of the House on Britain’s future in the European Union.

The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) expressed fears about a gap between the discussion taking place now, what happens after 1 December and

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the continued provision in areas such as the European arrest warrant. I would simply remind him of what Professor Steven Peers said about the issue of the time frame for the next few months in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee on 10 September:

“There certainly ought to be enough time. I would say it would not be the Government’s fault if there is no decision in time by December next year. It would be some kind of political difficulty that the Council and the Commission have dreamed up.”

I am confident, as is the Home Secretary and those involved in the negotiating team, that there is time, will and a desire on the part of other member states to ensure that there is a smooth transition and we can get this done without the gap that the hon. Gentleman is afraid of.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) rightly again highlighted the issue of the ECJ at the centre of the debate, and I suspect that we will have further lively discussions about it as the months go by. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) had examined the issue of justice measures and talked about probation, as did the shadow Justice Secretary. There are genuine issues relating to the drafting of the probation directive which make it difficult for us to consider at this moment the concept that we would release this to the jurisdiction of the European Court. I have no intention of going forward with an opt-in under the current wording, as that could cause all kinds of complications for our rules on deportations, in respect of somebody deported to another country who then had to be repatriated because their probation conditions were breached. At the moment we believe the measure is flawed and we have therefore decided it cannot be in the list of things to opt back in to.

My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton gave a thoughtful contribution in which he talked about the “cold, hard lens” of national interest. That is certainly what has guided us, particularly in respect of the discussions the Home Secretary has had with law enforcement bodies about the need to say that there are things they believe need to be in place in order for us to ensure we can provide proper protection for our citizens. Some strong recommendations have been made by those organisations, which she articulated clearly in her remarks this afternoon. Lastly, my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) was clear about his views about opting in to these measures. I simply remind him that we have opted out already and the decision to exercise the opt-out is a major step forward for the country; otherwise we would have had no option but to end up with 133 different measures.

So, for reasons of policy, principle and pragmatism, the Government have exercised the opt-out in the national interest. We have decided that it is in our national interest to co-operate in measures that help combat cross-border crime and keep our country safe. That is what we are negotiating for in Brussels and it is what we aim to deliver. It is a coherent package that we aim to bring back to Parliament for a vote before the UK formally makes any application to rejoin later this year. It is very much in that national interest that my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton talked about. It has guided us in these discussions and in discussions across the coalition.

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Mr Cash: Will the Secretary of State give us a clear indication as to the extent to which the decisions that are being taken by the Government are being guided, if not directed, by the politics of the coalition?

Chris Grayling: We have had long discussions across Government about how best to shape the right package for the country. Inevitably, we have had those discussions. We now have a package that provides a sensible balance between a number of different factors and different interests, which is why we have brought that package to the House for consideration. It is why we brought it to the House last summer and why we have set it out in our negotiations on the future of our participation in these measures.

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for giving way once again; he is being enormously generous. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that in coalition the issue of collective responsibility has to be treated differently. Accepting that as a new constitutional principle, which I would not normally do, but for these purposes accepting it, will the Lord Chancellor give us his own personal view?

Chris Grayling: Madam Deputy Speaker might deem me to be out of order if I followed too far down that route tonight. No doubt we can have that discussion over a beer some time.

We have a sensible package. We have sought to operate in the national interest and to reflect the views of the law enforcement community about what it needs to fight organised crime. I am clear that I do not want, and will not tolerate, the idea of us becoming part of a Europeanised justice system. I will continue to pursue that in my dealings with the European Union—in our interactions over things such as the justice scorecard. Equally, it is important to understand the task that the Home Office faces in dealing with international crime and in ensuring that it can combat organised crime. I am talking about some of the most abhorrent offences, such as human trafficking, that are a real challenge to all of us across the whole of Europe. We need to have enough protection to enable us to take part in genuine international collaboration on those issues. That is why we have placed this package before the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the UK’s 2014 justice and home affairs opt-out decision.

Business without Debate

Human RIghts

Ordered,

That Rehman Chishti and Sir Richard Shepherd be discharged from the Joint Committee on Human Rights and Sir Edward Garnier and Gareth Johnson be added.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.)

Public Accounts

Ordered,

That Fiona Mactaggart be discharged from the Committee of Public Accounts and Mrs Anne McGuire be added.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.)

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Worksop Magistrates Court

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Gavin Barwell.)

7.53 pm

John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): “British justice is the envy of the world,” said the Government in the previous debate. Elizabeth I, James I, Henry III, Henry VIII, Richard I, Richard II, Richard III, Mary Queen of Scots and many, many more monarchs of this country have rested overnight in Bassetlaw. In 617, King Edwin defeated Aethelfrith of Northumbria in a battle that established some of the initial boundaries across the country that we now call England. During the reign of King Alfred, England was divided into shires and counties and then subdivided into hundreds of wapentakes, one of which was Bassetlaw. It was reinforced and confirmed in the Domesday Book when the modern geographic area of Bassetlaw was granted by William the Conqueror to Roger de Busli, a well known northern baron. Why is that relevant to British justice today? Well, the basis of law—the law that the Government say is the envy of the world—is precisely this geographical, political, social and economic history that has meant that, as an entity, Bassetlaw has existed in the concepts of law in this country for 1,000 years.

The local courts, which determined where residents could graze their lands and the rights of tenants under the dukes who resided there, have gone on for the past 1,000 years. Bassetlaw has been the home of many great dukes, including Norfolk, Newcastle, and Portland who, as landowners, administered justice in disputes on their land. Following the dissolution of the abbeys during the reign of Henry VIII—soon after he had visited the great priory of Worksop—the Earl of Shrewsbury was granted the land in Bassetlaw that used to belong to the great priory abbey. The local records note that Gilbert, the new Earl of Shrewsbury, had to pay a tax of 100 shillings to the court when his father died in what was known as knight’s duties. He became a Privy Counsellor to Elizabeth I and was also made a knight of the garter. He gave to the monarch, on behalf of the manor of Worksop, the gloves that were held in the right hand of the monarch in every coronation for many hundreds of years.

It is important to remember that while common law was only introduced in Bassetlaw during the reign of Henry III, canon law had been administered at the local abbeys by monks who were trained to try cases involving the Church. That is how justice in this country was developed—how it originated. Bassetlaw was there at the beginning of English justice. All the way through—be it through the canons or the dukes—justice has been administered in Bassetlaw, by Bassetlaw, for Bassetlaw. The Social and Economic History of Nottinghamshire says that

“summary justice in Nottingham was mainly administered in these local courts”—

such as in Retford and Worksop—

“to which the tenants almost always made suit. The majority of the lords possessed the rights of the gallows, the pillory, the tumbrel…together with the assize of bread and ale.”

All that history and the basis of justice are now threatened for the first time in 1,000 years by the cutbacks of this Government. It is this Government now, in this year, who are proposing a single site for youth work. They

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are not talking about Bassetlaw, or Retford court, which was closed by the previous cuts of the previous Secretary of State. They are talking about youth work going to Mansfield, with the new single family courts. Worksop is being offered only as an occasional court, “as an overspill”.

New criminal work will never be commenced again in Bassetlaw, shifted to Worksop. There will be no listings of trials at Worksop any more because under this Government and their police cuts the cells at the court room, run by the police, have been mothballed. What does that leave for justice in Bassetlaw in the Government’s consultation document? TV licence offences, while at the same time the coalition Government are consulting on decriminalising TV licence offences. That leaves local taxation enforcement, to quote from the consultation document, “for the time being”.

This is the death of the last remaining court in Bassetlaw—Worksop court—through a thousand cuts. Bit by bit, justice has been stripped away; so have 1,000 years and so has the basis of the law we gave to the rest of the world, which this same Government claim is the envy of the rest of the world—although not for long, if the principle of local justice administered by local people is stripped away from the very place where it was founded.

What are the practical implications? In their document, the Government suggest a small journey—a 30-mile round trip—failing to recognise the geographical size of Bassetlaw. It takes more time, to pick an entirely random comparison, to journey across Bassetlaw by car than it does to journey from this place to Basingstoke. It takes more time to get into Worksop from the villages of Bassetlaw than it does to get from Worksop to Mansfield by public transport. If a person is lucky and buses are available, they could potentially get to Mansfield and the courts in three hours but not in time to turn up for the start of court. Having got there, they would not be able to get back home. That means that magistrates, the basis of local justice, will no longer be able to be recruited from Bassetlaw. Witnesses wishing to appear in court who do not have access to their own transport will not be able practically to make a return journey and, if they do, on the one train they could take from Worksop that gets to Mansfield in time they would be sitting in the same carriages as those they were giving evidence against.

What kind of justice system is that, that we say is the envy of the world, when the Government, through their measly cutbacks, reduce to nothing 1,000 years of justice in Bassetlaw? How will those who are not financially well off, those without access to transport, those who are infirm and those who are unable to drive, either because they no longer have a licence or have not yet acquired one, be able to get the courts and get back? The real hidden cost will be in police officers chasing youths who have failed to turn up in time in court over the 550 square miles of Bassetlaw, an area bigger than the whole of Greater London. Police resources will be wasted on people who have failed to turn up in court when charged with small offences.

Once the Government have cut to ribbons what is left, stripped out criminal trials in Bassetlaw and denuded it of any real opportunity in the field of justice, the last

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little bits will be taken away because the next cut will be the final cut: the closure of Worksop court. What will that mean when that happens, which will be a matter of months if the consultation goes through? The area that helped create British justice and produced MPs such as the Earl of Liverpool, the last Prime Minister and MP before my good self to live in Bassetlaw while representing Bassetlaw, or Gladstone, who was not an MP for Bassetlaw but spent four years living there—that is what is being thrown away, but this is far greater than that.

Where did the Great Reform Act, which eventually led to this country exporting the universal franchise and the current system of democracy to everywhere in the democratic world, come from? It came from Bassetlaw and the great reformer John Cartwright. Because of the rotten borough of Retford, the Great Reform Act, when it was written, was inspired by events in Bassetlaw. Legal brains from Bassetlaw led to the Great Reform Act and created the model of democracy that this country gave the world, but this is about more than that.

The essence of democracy and the fact that there was so much local democracy in Bassetlaw also led to the confidence that meant that the people who became the pilgrim fathers nearly 400 years ago—the anniversary is in 2020—and formed the United States of America could create the ethos behind the constitution of the United States. Those people were brought up, bred, schooled, educated and churched in Bassetlaw. The history of local justice inspired them to be the ones who dared to go out and have the vision that led to the United States. World democracy was exported by this country. British justice, to quote the Government in the previous debate, is the envy of the world. That 1,000-year-old system of local people in the local area administering local justice is now being kiboshed by this Government and their penny pinching cuts.

My demand is that the Minister should tear up the consultation, reject the death by a thousand cuts of the final court in Bassetlaw, Worksop court, and say to the world that British justice will in the future be the envy of the world and that we will have the principle of local justice administered by local people in the local area. If it has been good enough for 1,000 years in Bassetlaw, it is good enough for a number more years to come. I demand that the Government withdraw these proposals and guarantee the future of Worksop court.

8.8 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Shailesh Vara): I congratulate the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on securing this important debate. I am sure that historians in years to come will want to look at his historical analysis of Bassetlaw eagerly, because it certainly was very interesting.

Let me make something absolutely clear at the outset: I want to assure the hon. Gentleman that the consultation is not a consultation on court closure.

I want to make three things clear. First, no decisions have yet been made. The local area is conducting a consultation on the proposal to reduce the number and type of court sessions listed in Worksop and I would not want to prejudge the outcome of that consultation.

Secondly, the consultation relates to proposed changes to the type of work that will be allocated to Worksop magistrates court in light of the facilities available there

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and the overall requirements of the Nottinghamshire local justice area. It is not a proposal to close the court at Worksop. If that were proposed it would be subject to a separate consultation that specifically said it was about possible closure.

Thirdly, the maintenance of appropriate arrangements for the deployment of the judiciary of England and Wales and the allocation of work within courts is the statutory responsibility of the Lord Chief Justice, not the Lord Chancellor. Together with, and supported by, the justices’ clerk through the judicial business group, local judiciary ensure that there is sufficient court time available to meet demand, and that the right facilities are provided for the particular types of cases that come before them. That includes reviewing the sitting programmes of magistrates courts within their area.

I should explain that judicial business groups comprise a magistrates liaison judge nominated by the resident judges in each clerkship, up to two district judges from magistrates courts, up to three bench chairs from benches within the clerkship areas, a justices’ clerk, a representative from the Magistrates Association, and a senior regional official from Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. In line with other areas, Nottinghamshire reviews its performance and sitting programme on a monthly basis to ensure that it is properly aligned with the workload. There has been a steady reduction in criminal workload across Nottinghamshire, which reflects a national trend, and the forecast is for further reduction. By contrast, family court work has increased slightly in the area, and it is right that local arrangements are made to accommodate that at Mansfield, Nottingham and, where necessary, Worksop.

The low volume of criminal cases, particularly in rural areas, means that some courts are not fully occupied, and the steps taken by the judicial business group in Nottinghamshire to consolidate similar types of business are designed to help make the best use of the estate, accommodate a growing family and tribunals workload, and reduce the inconvenience to court users caused by sitting patterns changing at short notice.

The proposals seek fully to utilise judicial sittings and to reduce the amount of judicial time wasted when cases collapse at short notice. The combining of resources in fewer venues will increase flexibility and afford more resilience when listing the criminal, civil and family case load. That in turn will provide the judiciary with more opportunity to use skills acquired and to expand on those that have been little used while sitting in courts where listing has been restricted, as experienced in Worksop.

The proposals are subject to a wide stakeholder consultation in the local area. It closes on 30 April 2014, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will contribute to it. The responses to the consultation will be given thorough consideration and the judicial business group will meet to discuss them. The final decision on how to arrange business within this area will rest with that group. A response to the consultation paper will be published in June.

The consultation has been designed to draw out specific impacts on various groups, and they will be considered carefully by the judicial business group, which will also give proper consideration to the public sector equality duty before implementation. The justices’ clerk for the area and bench chairman have held meetings

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with local defence advocates and a representative of the Legal Aid Agency better to understand their concerns. The judicial business group will consider carefully the impact on magistrates’ rotas. Those considerations will take into account the need to balance travel time and costs against maintaining their competencies and sittings across the range of work.

I understand the concern that some of the changes may result in increased travel for victims and witnesses in the north of the county, which is why the criminal justice system is looking at ways to overcome that, especially by making the most of video technology. That would mean that victims and witnesses may, in some instances, be able to give their evidence from the local police station or local court via a video link. The increased use of video technology in the courts is a key part of the Government’s modernisation plans for the criminal justice system, and I, for one, welcome its use for those purposes.

It is important to remember that the proposals for Worksop magistrates court will serve to benefit all court users while improving performance and service delivery, and creating better value for money. Worksop has the lowest effective trial rate in the area. In 2013, 34.6% of trials that were listed actually went ahead as trials. In the same year, in 20% of trials, the defendant changed their plea to guilty at the court door, causing the trial to collapse. As only one court operates at the site, when a trial collapses, the court has no other work to do. Conversely, if more than one listed trial is ready to proceed, there is no scope for that trial to be heard elsewhere in the building, as there is only one operational court. That happened in 10% of trials listed at Worksop in 2013, and it is the highest instance of ineffective trials in the area. When that happens, the trial has to be adjourned and relisted for another day, leading to further delay. Proposals in the consultation seek to make better use of court time for magistrates and court users while improving performance and service delivery. That will be brought about by combining resources in one building, thus providing increased flexibility to dispose of the work load in a more efficient manner.

Criminal business in magistrates courts has reduced nationally. We have a duty to court users to deliver an efficient and effective service across all parts of our business, and we believe the proposals will help to do both. I reiterate that this is a local initiative, which is being appropriately managed through the consultation paper. Local justice is about visible and continual engagement with communities. It is working with local criminal justice agencies to understand the issues that affect those communities and what can be done to resolve them.

Local justice does not mean providing a courthouse in every town or city that hears every type of business. Quality, speed and efficiency of the service that is provided, and a safe, comfortable environment for court users that commands respect for the justice system, are much more significant to the delivery of effective local justice across communities. The lay magistracy serves as a vital link connecting the criminal justice system to local communities, and it is important to ensure that magistrates continue to play a central role in the system of summary justice.

We will continue to work closely with the judiciary and other key stakeholders as we consider how best to harness the potential of the magistracy through our

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wider reform programme. I hope that that reassures the hon. Gentleman that the Government are serious about working with magistrates and the judiciary to improve the local and regional administration of justice in the county of Nottinghamshire, and nationally. Again, I congratulate him on taking the opportunity to put on

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record in the Chamber his views, and I very much hope that my response has given him some comfort that the consultation is not about closure.

Question put and agreed to.

8.18 pm

House adjourned.