I do not intend to press amendments 2, 3, 4 or 6 to a vote. However, because we believe that clause 3—in its intent, if not in its execution—is a harmful, misleading

20 Oct 2014 : Column 699

and rather spiteful little clause designed to further attack provisions for health and safety at work, we will press amendment 5 to a vote. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw amendment 2.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: 5, page 1, line 9, leave out Clause 3.—(Mr Slaughter.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The House divided:

Ayes 145, Noes 260.

Division No. 59]

[

4.41 pm

AYES

Abrahams, Debbie

Ali, Rushanara

Allen, Mr Graham

Bailey, Mr Adrian

Bain, Mr William

Begg, Dame Anne

Benn, rh Hilary

Berger, Luciana

Betts, Mr Clive

Blackman-Woods, Roberta

Blenkinsop, Tom

Blomfield, Paul

Blunkett, rh Mr David

Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben

Brennan, Kevin

Brown, Lyn

Brown, rh Mr Nicholas

Brown, Mr Russell

Bryant, Chris

Buck, Ms Karen

Byrne, rh Mr Liam

Campbell, rh Mr Alan

Campbell, Mr Ronnie

Chapman, Jenny

Clarke, rh Mr Tom

Coaker, Vernon

Crausby, Mr David

Creagh, Mary

Cryer, John

Cunningham, Alex

Cunningham, Mr Jim

Cunningham, Sir Tony

Dakin, Nic

Danczuk, Simon

David, Wayne

Docherty, Thomas

Donohoe, Mr Brian H.

Doran, Mr Frank

Doughty, Stephen

Dowd, Jim

Doyle, Gemma

Dromey, Jack

Efford, Clive

Ellman, Mrs Louise

Engel, Natascha

Field, rh Mr Frank

Fitzpatrick, Jim

Flello, Robert

Flint, rh Caroline

Fovargue, Yvonne

Francis, Dr Hywel

Gardiner, Barry

Goodman, Helen

Green, Kate

Greenwood, Lilian

Griffith, Nia

Gwynne, Andrew

Hain, rh Mr Peter

Hamilton, Mr David

Hanson, rh Mr David

Harman, rh Ms Harriet

Hermon, Lady

Hillier, Meg

Hilling, Julie

Hodge, rh Margaret

Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

Hopkins, Kelvin

Hunt, Tristram

Irranca-Davies, Huw

Jamieson, Cathy

Johnson, Diana

Jones, Graham

Jones, Mr Kevan

Keeley, Barbara

Khan, rh Sadiq

Leslie, Chris

Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma

Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn

Love, Mr Andrew

Lucas, Ian

Mactaggart, Fiona

Mahmood, Mr Khalid

Mahmood, Shabana

Malhotra, Seema

Marsden, Mr Gordon

McCabe, Steve

McCann, Mr Michael

McCarthy, Kerry

McClymont, Gregg

McDonald, Andy

McFadden, rh Mr Pat

McGuire, rh Mrs Anne

McInnes, Liz

McKinnell, Catherine

Mearns, Ian

Miller, Andrew

Mitchell, Austin

Morden, Jessica

Morrice, Graeme

(Livingston)

Munn, Meg

Murray, Ian

Nandy, Lisa

Nash, Pamela

O'Donnell, Fiona

Onwurah, Chi

Pearce, Teresa

Perkins, Toby

Phillipson, Bridget

Pound, Stephen

Powell, Lucy

Raynsford, rh Mr Nick

Reed, Mr Steve

Reynolds, Emma

Reynolds, Jonathan

Riordan, Mrs Linda

Robertson, John

Robinson, Mr Geoffrey

Ruddock, rh Dame Joan

Sawford, Andy

Seabeck, Alison

Sharma, Mr Virendra

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Slaughter, Mr Andy

Smith, Nick

Smith, Owen

Spellar, rh Mr John

Stringer, Graham

Stuart, Ms Gisela

Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry

Timms, rh Stephen

Turner, Karl

Twigg, Stephen

Umunna, Mr Chuka

Vaz, rh Keith

Vaz, Valerie

Walley, Joan

Watts, Mr Dave

Williamson, Chris

Wilson, Phil

Winnick, Mr David

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie

Woodcock, John

Wright, David

Wright, Mr Iain

Tellers for the Ayes:

Heidi Alexander

and

Susan Elan Jones

NOES

Adams, Nigel

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Alexander, rh Danny

Amess, Mr David

Arbuthnot, rh Mr James

Bacon, Mr Richard

Baker, rh Norman

Baker, Steve

Baldry, rh Sir Tony

Baldwin, Harriett

Barclay, Stephen

Barker, rh Gregory

Barwell, Gavin

Beith, rh Sir Alan

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Bingham, Andrew

Blackman, Bob

Boles, Nick

Bone, Mr Peter

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brake, rh Tom

Bray, Angie

Brazier, Mr Julian

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Brokenshire, James

Brooke, rh Annette

Browne, Mr Jeremy

Bruce, Fiona

Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burley, Mr Aidan

Burrowes, Mr David

Burt, rh Alistair

Burt, Lorely

Cable, rh Vince

Cairns, Alun

Campbell, rh Sir Menzies

Carmichael, Neil

Carswell, Douglas

Cash, Sir William

Chishti, Rehman

Clappison, Mr James

Clark, rh Greg

Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth

Clegg, rh Mr Nick

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Cox, Mr Geoffrey

Davey, rh Mr Edward

Davies, Glyn

Davies, Philip

Davis, rh Mr David

de Bois, Nick

Dinenage, Caroline

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Duncan, rh Sir Alan

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Jonathan

Evans, Mr Nigel

Evennett, Mr David

Fabricant, Michael

Farron, Tim

Field, Mark

Foster, rh Mr Don

Fox, rh Dr Liam

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Freeman, George

Freer, Mike

Fuller, Richard

Gale, Sir Roger

Garnier, Mark

Gauke, Mr David

George, Andrew

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gilbert, Stephen

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goldsmith, Zac

Graham, Richard

Grant, Mrs Helen

Gray, Mr James

Grayling, rh Chris

Green, rh Damian

Greening, rh Justine

Griffiths, Andrew

Gummer, Ben

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Halfon, Robert

Hames, Duncan

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, rh Matthew

Hands, rh Greg

Harper, Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Harvey, Sir Nick

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Heald, Sir Oliver

Heath, Mr David

Heaton-Harris, Chris

Hemming, John

Henderson, Gordon

Hendry, Charles

Hoban, Mr Mark

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Hopkins, Kris

Howell, John

Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy

Hunter, Mark

Huppert, Dr Julian

Jackson, Mr Stewart

James, Margot

Javid, rh Sajid

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Jenrick, Robert

Jones, Andrew

Jones, rh Mr David

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kawczynski, Daniel

Kelly, Chris

Kirby, Simon

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Lamb, rh Norman

Lansley, rh Mr Andrew

Laws, rh Mr David

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Jessica

Lee, Dr Phillip

Leech, Mr John

Lefroy, Jeremy

Lewis, Brandon

Lewis, Dr Julian

Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lloyd, Stephen

Lopresti, Jack

Macleod, Mary

Main, Mrs Anne

Maude, rh Mr Francis

Maynard, Paul

McCartney, Karl

McPartland, Stephen

Menzies, Mark

Metcalfe, Stephen

Miller, rh Maria

Mills, Nigel

Milton, Anne

Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew

Moore, rh Michael

Mordaunt, Penny

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, David

Morris, James

Mosley, Stephen

Mulholland, Greg

Mundell, rh David

Munt, Tessa

Murray, Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Neill, Robert

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

O'Brien, rh Mr Stephen

Offord, Dr Matthew

Ollerenshaw, Eric

Opperman, Guy

Paice, rh Sir James

Parish, Neil

Patel, Priti

Paterson, rh Mr Owen

Pawsey, Mark

Penning, rh Mike

Penrose, John

Phillips, Stephen

Pincher, Christopher

Poulter, Dr Daniel

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pugh, John

Raab, Mr Dominic

Randall, rh Sir John

Redwood, rh Mr John

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Reevell, Simon

Reid, Mr Alan

Robathan, rh Mr Andrew

Rogerson, Dan

Rudd, Amber

Ruffley, Mr David

Russell, Sir Bob

Rutley, David

Sandys, Laura

Scott, Mr Lee

Selous, Andrew

Shelbrooke, Alec

Simmonds, Mark

Simpson, Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Soames, rh Sir Nicholas

Soubry, Anna

Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline

Spencer, Mr Mark

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Bob

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Streeter, Mr Gary

Stride, Mel

Stuart, Mr Graham

Stunell, rh Sir Andrew

Swales, Ian

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Swinson, Jo

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Syms, Mr Robert

Tapsell, rh Sir Peter

Teather, Sarah

Thornton, Mike

Thurso, rh John

Tomlinson, Justin

Truss, rh Elizabeth

Tyrie, Mr Andrew

Vaizey, Mr Edward

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vickers, Martin

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa

Walker, Mr Charles

Wallace, Mr Ben

Watkinson, Dame Angela

Webb, rh Steve

Wharton, James

Wheeler, Heather

Whittaker, Craig

Whittingdale, Mr John

Wiggin, Bill

Willetts, rh Mr David

Williamson, Gavin

Wilson, Mr Rob

Wollaston, Dr Sarah

Wright, rh Jeremy

Wright, Simon

Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Damian Hinds

and

Jenny Willott

Question accordingly negatived.

20 Oct 2014 : Column 700

20 Oct 2014 : Column 701

20 Oct 2014 : Column 702

Third Reading

4.55 pm

Mr Vara: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I thank all hon. Members who served in Committee, and those who have spoken on Report. It has been an interesting and lively debate, although there has been disagreement at times. I also say a big thank you to members of the Bill team and to the Clerks for their advice and support throughout, which have been much appreciated.

Although this is a short Bill, its three substantive clauses are nevertheless important. As I said earlier, the responsibility clause will reassure ordinary hard-working people who have adopted a generally responsible approach towards the safety of others during the course of an activity that the courts will always consider the context of their actions in the event that something goes wrong and they are sued.

We do not want people who try to do the right thing to worry constantly that somebody will take them to court. My right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary has been clear from the outset that he wants to reassure owners of small businesses and other employers who live in fear that an opportunistic or disgruntled member of staff may bring an unfounded negligence claim at the drop of a hat. In such circumstances, we hope that the Bill will give responsible employers greater confidence that there is no need to worry about defending themselves in court.

This is not just about protecting employers from negligence claims brought by employees, and in Committee we heard worrying examples of how the compensation culture can affect other organisations. As I mentioned on Report, the Cheshire fire and rescue service talked about members of the public bringing claims after they had tripped over fire-hoses in broad daylight, ignoring the flashing lights and liveried firefighters who were attending the scene of an emergency. It cannot be right that unjustified claims are brought against members of our emergency services who are doing their best in difficult conditions to save the lives of others. The Campaign for Adventure also warned that a litigious climate can produce a culture of fear that inhibits innovation, exploration, learning and altruism. We are committed to defeating that culture of fear.

The Bill will help all those hard-working individuals, organisations and small businesses who do the right thing and adopt a responsible approach towards the safety of others in the course of an activity by ensuring that that is taken into account by the court in the event of a claim. It will help to discourage speculative and opportunistic claims, and give confidence to responsible employers—and others—to resist them.

20 Oct 2014 : Column 703

The social action clause will help to foster an environment of civic-mindedness and promote volunteering by reassuring those who make a positive contribution to society that the law will be on their side in the unlikely event that they are sued. Members of the House might recall that the coalition agreement included a commitment to

“take a range of measures to encourage volunteering and involvement in social action.”

That is precisely what we have been doing through the many initiatives that we have backed to increase participation in civil society, and I am glad that the proportion of people volunteering is steadily rising. The Bill will build on the progress we have already made by tackling the perception of the compensation culture, which can influence the willingness of people to volunteer. We know that worries about liability remain a real issue for some would-be volunteers. In his evidence to the Bill Committee, Dr Justin Davis Smith of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations confirmed that the fear of being sued prevents

“a significant proportion of people getting involved”.––[Official Report, Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Public Bill Committee, 4 September 2014; c. 11, Q14.]

We hope that the social action clause will go some way to allaying the fears of people who are deterred from getting involved. Parliament has a significant role to play in highlighting what is valued in society. The Bill seeks to deliver a positive message. It is a message that social action is desirable, a message that responsible behaviour will be recognised, and a message that the law is on the side of those who undertake socially beneficial activities.

The final limb of the Bill, on heroism, addresses another key area of concern. Unfortunately, often people are unwilling to intervene in emergencies because they are worried they might be sued and ordered to pay damages if they try to help. At previous stages of the Bill we heard examples of such behaviour, both from Members and from those giving evidence to the Bill Committee. The Bill therefore seeks to address such concerns by reassuring the public that if they act heroically by selflessly intervening to provide assistance in an emergency, that will be taken into account by the courts should a claim of negligence be brought against them.

As the examples I have given demonstrate, the Bill applies to a wide range of situations and emphasises that the actions of those who seek to serve their communities are valued by the law. It will be relevant to those who act for the benefit of society by engaging in organised voluntary activities, or to those who perform acts of kindness for individual members of the community, such as assisting an elderly neighbour with day-to-day tasks. It will be relevant to those who demonstrate a generally responsible approach to the safety of others, whether in the work environment or in other contexts, and to those who selflessly assist others in emergencies. All of those people will be able to rest assured that full account will be taken of the context of their actions, should something go wrong and they are sued.

I emphasise again that the Bill does not confer immunity from civil liability for those whose actions fall within the scope of the Bill. Those who are injured by negligence will continue to have access to legal redress, and the Bill will not remove the court’s ability to do justice in an individual case. Courts will continue to be able to

20 Oct 2014 : Column 704

consider all the facts of an individual case, and nothing in the Bill will prevent a person from being found negligent if the circumstances of the case warrant it.

There has been some criticism of the Bill, particularly from members of the legal profession. I want to make it absolutely clear that this is not a Bill aimed at pleasing lawyers. It is a Bill that gives support and reassurance to ordinary people who act responsibly and for the benefit of society. The Bill adopts a fair and sensible approach that allays the fears of those who wish to undertake socially beneficial action, reassures organisations and individuals that a responsible approach to safety is recognised, and encourages a culture of altruism, not one of compensation. I commend the Bill to the House.

5.3 pm

Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I, too, thank all those involved in the passage of the Bill through this House. I will keep my comments, like the Bill, short. Of course we all want to see even more people volunteering. We all want even more social action. We all want even more heroism from the great British public. The Bill, however, will not be the reason for any of that happening.

The Bill received great fanfare from the Justice Secretary. When it was first unveiled, he trumpeted to the press how he would slay “the ’ealth and safety culture”—his dropped “h”, not mine. The media were fed grand promises that the Bill would rid us of the compensation culture, but the reality set in almost straight away. It soon became obvious that the Bill would do none of the things the Justice Secretary claimed it would do. It was soon plain for all to see that it was simply a big public relations stunt. This was squarely in the “spin first, think through the details later” category of legislation.

Those who knew their stuff were quick to round on the Bill. For many, including some of the Government’s own advisers, there is simply no evidence of a health and safety or compensation culture. The Justice Secretary is developing a habit of ignoring, or not even seeking, legal advice on his pet projects, and sometimes he even shoots the messenger. The former Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), advised that the Bill was “utter tosh”—another reason, no doubt, why he was sacked at the last reshuffle.

The Justice Secretary needs to know that any expert—solicitor, barrister or anybody else—worth their salt would have told him that his Bill would have little if any impact on the health and safety or compensation culture. That is precisely what happened when the Bill had its Second Reading, when the Government could not muster a single Member to make a speech in favour of it. The only Government Member who did speak was the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), the former Solicitor-General, who is in his place. He said:

“I have a horrible suspicion that if the Bill becomes an Act as it is currently drafted, it will be the subject of derision and confusion, or that even if that does not happen, it will fall into disuse.”—[Official Report, 21 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1204.]

Today, I think he called it a silly piece of legislation, and I am sure he will be speaking shortly. In Committee, the expert witnesses whom the Government invited to give evidence in support of the Bill saw no benefit in attending, and some even made it clear why there was no point: the Bill would make no difference.

20 Oct 2014 : Column 705

The Bill will change little, but we will not oppose it today. We tried in Committee to make something of it, and it will now fall to the other place to attempt to give it purpose, but with prisons in crisis, probation in meltdown and access to justice under threat, it was always the wrong priority for a Government devoid of ideas. It exposes the Justice Secretary’s skewed priorities: he got his favourable media hit, and the rest is irrelevant. This treats the House with utter disrespect. Precious legislative time that could have gone on meaningful measures to change people’s lives for the better has been wasted. Nevertheless, he will receive one major accolade: his Bill will join that select club of the most useless pieces of legislation ever—not an honour of which to be proud.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

20 Oct 2014 : Column 706

Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure

[Relevant document: The 233rd Report from the Ecclesiastical Committee, Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure, HC 622.]

5.7 pm

The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry): I beg to move,

That the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure (HC 621), passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to Her Majesty for her Royal Assent in the form in which it was laid before Parliament.

It is now nearly a century since Parliament recognised that it should no longer be the body that initiated legislation concerning the running of the Church of England. However, Church legislation becomes part of the law of England, so it requires parliamentary approval and Royal Assent. A Measure such as the one before us has to have been passed by the General Synod of the Church of England. Most Measures require simple majorities in the Synod, but this one falls in that special category of particularly important instruments that need to have achieved at least two-thirds majorities in each of the Houses of Bishops, Clergy and Laity.

A Measure passed by General Synod then comes to Parliament to be considered by the Ecclesiastical Committee, a statutory Committee comprising 15 Members of each House, and if after consideration the Committee thinks it expedient to approve the Measure, it then has to be considered and approved separately by each House. The Measure was passed by General Synod in July and considered and approved by the Ecclesiastical Committee on the last day Parliament sat before the summer recess. The House of Lords considered and approved the Measure last week, on the first sitting day after the recess, and for it to proceed to Royal Assent, it now simply remains for this House to give its approval.

The purpose of the Measure is to enable the Church of England, for the first time, to open all three orders of ministry—deacons, priests and bishops—without reference to gender. The process was begun by legislation to enable women to become deacons in the 1980s and to become priests in the 1990s. That process will at last be completed by this legislation, which will enable women to become bishops—and indeed archbishops, as they are not separate orders of ministry in the Church of England.

Women priests now make up over a quarter of parish clergy and around half of priests in training. There are already 23 women archdeacons and six women deans. As a debate last year in Westminster Hall testified, over the past 20 years many women have given outstanding leadership to the Church of England and to our communities as vicars, archdeacons and cathedral deans. Now every type of post will be open to them. It is right to acknowledge the immense patience among many women in the Church who have waited for this day. We acknowledge, as we need to, the pain and hurt that there has often been as a consequence of the delay in arriving at where we are at today.

Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): As well as recognising the consequences of delay, will the right hon. Gentleman sound a note of joy, in that the Church

20 Oct 2014 : Column 707

will now be able to choose from the other half of the population for its most senior positions, which, all things being equal, must strengthen our hand?

Sir Tony Baldry: I hope this whole debate will be joyful, because this is a very joyful day for the Church of England and society as a whole.

The conundrum has been: how to try to maintain the theological breadth and diversity of the Church of England while securing a solution that avoids any appearance of equivocation over the Church of England’s commitment to equality between men and women. Or, as I said in a speech to General Synod in 2010, shortly after I was appointed Second Church Estates Commissioner, the Church of England could have women bishops or not have women bishops, but one thing Parliament would not tolerate was any suggestion of second-class women bishops. As the House will recall, in November 2012, the earlier Measure failed at General Synod. That resulted in my having to answer an urgent question in the House, which indicated the depth and breadth of concern across the House. There was subsequently a half-day’s debate.

I think everyone in the Church of England felt chastened by the failure to reach agreement, and the Archbishop of Canterbury set in place a process of facilitated listening and discussions between all the various groups in the Church to seek a way forward. That process of facilitated listening and discussion led to a much simpler Measure, which is before the House today.

Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I am not a believer, as I have said on previous occasions. This Measure requires parliamentary approval, and we are all Members of Parliament, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, having voted 20 or so years ago for women to become priests, it was very difficult—certainly for me, as well as many others in the House, I am sure—to understand why there should be a glass ceiling? I am pleased that the decision has been reached to have no second-class category in the Church of England as far as women are concerned.

Sir Tony Baldry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those comments, and I hope that view is shared by everyone and all Members of the House.

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will my right hon. Friend note that the enthusiasm for tonight’s decision is shared in the non-conformist Churches, many of which, like the Methodist Church and the United Reformed Church, are accustomed to having women as their leaders, as moderator or president?

Sir Tony Baldry: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for making the point—it was made in the other place and I will comment on it later—that this is a measure that has been welcomed by many other faith groups as well. I am also grateful for his kind welcome for the Measure.

At General Synod, the Measure enjoyed overwhelming majorities at final approval in the three Houses of Synod, with 95% in the House of Bishops, 87% in the House of Clergy and 77% in the House of Laity—majorities that I suspect any party or combination of parties in this House would give their eye-teeth for. At the heart

20 Oct 2014 : Column 708

of the work and discussions on the new Measure was the ambition to do everything possible to maintain unity in the Church of England. This Measure, along with its accompanying instruments and documents, seeks to give expression to that hope of unity in various ways. It is acknowledged in the five guiding principles in the House of Bishops’ declaration that we live in a wider Christian world, where this development—having women bishops—is not accepted by everyone, and we have committed ourselves to maintain a place, without limited time, for those who are of the traditional viewpoint. These commitments are important because they are at the core of what the Church of England is about and how it sees itself within our national life. In the House of Lords debate last week, the Archbishop of Canterbury observed:

“One of the most moving parts of this process has been listening to those who have been willing to go along with something that they feel passionately and deeply is not the right thing for the church to do…I say again that the Church of England is deeply committed to the flourishing of all those who are part of its life in the grace of God. It is not our intention that any particular group should wither on the vine.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 187.]

Indeed, I think we would all hope that every part of the Church of England can now flourish and thrive.

In the same debate last week, the House of Lords was particularly moved by the speech of the noble Lord Cormack, who many will know was for many years a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee and who describes himself as a traditional Anglican. Lord Cormack said that he could

“say with all certainty that had I been present in York this year I would have approved of the Measure before us this evening. There has been a real attempt to understand the sincerely held peculiarities of those of us who call ourselves traditional Anglicans.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 175.]

As the Archbishop of Canterbury observed a little while ago on “Newsnight”,

“the biggest change in the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other and the way we are learning to treat people we disagree with.”

This Measures thus comes before us this evening with the overwhelming endorsement of every diocese in England and the overwhelming endorsement of every part of General Synod following a process of listening and reconciliation.

Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): My right hon. Friend was kind enough to refer to the noble Lord Cormack. Would he accept that part of the reconciliation has been the generous approach adopted by those of us who would associate ourselves as being within the Catholic tradition, and will he welcome the observations made by Forward in Faith, which represents many of those parishes, and the generous approach by the Roman Catholic Church in England? Will he assure us all that this will in no way undermine the work on greater understanding and dialogue with our Catholic and Orthodox brethren, which is part of the wider scope of Christian understanding that we are seeking to achieve?

Sir Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend makes a good point. In fairness, the Measure has come about because throughout every part of the Church of England, and

20 Oct 2014 : Column 709

in tandem with other Churches—as evidenced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and others—generosity has been shown.

The declaration of the House of Bishops, which accompanies the Measure, sets out five principles of non-discrimination, acceptance of diversity and recognition of difference across the universal and Catholic Church, which is enormously important. When the Measure was considered last week in the House of Lords, it was notable that it attracted support from all quarters, irrespective of whether they were members of the Church of England. As the Labour peer Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall observed, she supported the Measure as

“a representative of the many, many people in this country who are not members of the Church of England, or indeed of any church, but who are none the less, in some curious way, deeply attached to the Church of England. We are people who have grown up in a world in which the ministry of the Church of England has been very important to the social and, indeed, the political fabric of this country.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 177.]

Another Labour peer, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port observed—in a spirit similar to that expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed—that

“as a member and former president of the Methodist Conference, I am determined that it should not simply be Anglican voices that give expression to their delight in this debate; Methodists across the land will rejoice at it.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 171.]

In a short and very moving speech, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, a Cross Bencher, explained that he had been brought up in the Catholic Church, but that what really mattered was love:

“what is important is the degree of love… I enormously welcome women bishops…It is correct that we should also show great love to those who find this difficult.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 October 2014; Vol. 756, c. 181.]

If we pass the Measure today, it will enable the Church to proceed to finalise matters at the General Synod next month. That potentially means that from 17 November, each diocesan bishop vacancy considered by the Crown Nominations Commission and each suffragan bishop vacancy considered by the relevant diocesan bishop will be open to women as to men.

One consequence of the Measure is that it will be possible for women to become Lords Spiritual and to sit in the House of Lords. At present, diocesan bishops are appointed to the House of Lords on the basis of seniority, so getting women bishops into the House of Lords could take some time if the normal system of seniority were simply left to take its course. However, I am glad to be able to report to the House that there has been consultation with all the main parties on the possibility of introducing a short, simple Government Bill to accelerate the arrival of the first woman bishop in the House of Lords, and I hope that such a Bill will be able to be taken through during this Session.

I am also glad to report that, in my experience, there has been solid cross-party support for such a Bill. It will have to be approved by Parliament because it goes to the question of who is summoned to attend Parliament. I should like to thank the First Secretary of State and Leader of the House of Commons and the noble Baroness Stowell, the Leader of the House of Lords, for their

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help and support with this matter. We all recognise the pressures on parliamentary time, particularly so late in the Parliament, but I very much hope that the Government will be able to find a legislative slot very shortly.

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I want to put in an early bid. The Bishop of Hull is leaving his post and moving on, and, as Hull is a pioneering city—remember William Wilberforce and Amy Johnson—I believe that the bishopric of Hull would be an ideal starting place for the first woman bishop in the House of Lords.

Sir Tony Baldry: I will make sure that the Crown Nominations Commission takes on board the hon. Lady’s bid. I suspect that there might be some competition from around the country, however. The Bishop of Oxford is retiring shortly. There are many excellent women in senior posts in the Church, and I have absolutely no doubt that the first women bishops—and, indeed, all those women who are made bishops—will be excellent candidates. This measure is long overdue. The ability of the Church of England to consecrate women bishops is long overdue. The arrival of women bishops in the House of Lords is long overdue. I commend the Measure to the House.

5.21 pm

Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): It is my very great pleasure, on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, to support the Measure to enable the Church of England to consecrate women as bishops. I congratulate all those who have brought us to this place: the Synod, which voted for the change; Archbishop Justin and his staff, who reinvigorated the process; the women in the Church who have ministered and campaigned for change; and those who did not wish to see women consecrated but who have accepted the overriding need for reconciliation.

To some of us, this decision seemed a long time coming. When we are waiting for something and uncertain of the outcome, it feels like an eternity, but when it is done, it feels as though it happened in the twinkling of an eye. I am not sure whether the story began in 1976 when the Movement for the Ordination of Women was set up, or in the 1550s with the Elizabethan settlement for the Church of England. Perhaps it began with those women we read about in the New Testament: Phoebe, the deacon; Priscilla, the teacher; and Lydia, whose house became a home for the Church. Perhaps it began with the Genesis story, which is open to different interpretations.

My mother once stood up in church to give the address, only to be blessed by a priest who prayed to God that women be forgiven, as sin was brought into the world by a woman. I am never quite sure where prejudice ends and firm conviction begins. I prefer to focus on these words:

“So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them…God saw everything that he had made and indeed it was very good.”

The right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who has fulfilled his role as Second Church Estates Commissioner excellently and whom we will all miss when he leaves the House in May, has laid out with admirable clarity the contents of the Measure. I will not repeat all that he has said, although I do have some questions. Obviously, it is not for Parliament or politicians,

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or even the Government, to lay down the theological grounding of any faith or religion in this country. We understand that. However, as the established Church, the Church of England has certain privileges and certain responsibilities. Uniquely, it ministers throughout the country; uniquely, it is guaranteed places in this Parliament. In that context, the Opposition believe that it is right for the canons of the Church to reflect the views and values of the vast majority of members of the Church and of wider society in upholding gender equality. I am delighted that the Synod made the decision that it made in July. I believe that by doing so it avoided what might have been a substantial crunch in the next Parliament.

Let me now deal with the details of the Measure. Clause 2 makes it clear that bishops are not public office holders under the Equality Act 2010. It is a necessary provision, enabling the Church to provide for those who, as a result of theological conviction, do not wish to receive episcopal oversight from a woman.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The hon. Lady says that the clause is necessary, but I do not think that it is necessary at all. It is the one element of the Measure that I think is unfortunate: I think it unfortunate that, at a time when we are advancing equality, we have to amend the Equality Act to carve out a chunk of the Church of England.

Helen Goodman: I am, of course, sympathetic to my hon. Friend’s perspective on this issue, but I think that had the clause not been included, it is extremely unlikely that we would be in this place today. I think it extremely unlikely that the Synod would have agreed to the package.

Mr Frank Field: While the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is valid, is it not a great truth that out there in the real world no one will understand that difference? When the Measure is passed and women are consecrated bishops, people will see women as bishops, and the small type on the face of the record, which might excite some people who think that it is a terrible injustice, will be lost once the first women are consecrated.

Helen Goodman: I hope very much that what my right hon. Friend says is correct, but I think that some questions arise about the way in which the Church is intending to handle the situation. I hope that the Second Church Estates Commissioner will be able to answer those questions, some of which were also raised during the discussion in the Ecclesiastical Committee in July.

First, will parochial church councils be obliged to inform all members of the Church who are on the electoral roll in a parish that discussions are about to take place regarding resolutions to restrict the ministry of women, so that hole-in-corner decisions are not made? Secondly, can a parish request oversight from a non-discriminating bishop? The rules allow parishes to request a discriminating bishop. Can they also request a non-discriminating bishop, and can such parishes apply to the new independent reviewer? Thirdly, will the new conservative evangelical headship bishop minister beyond the parishes that specifically request his ministry? Fourthly, will the Second Church Estates Commissioner confirm that clause 2 will not validate any further discriminatory practices?

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There is a fifth, and very important, question, which relates not to the Church but to the Government. I am not sure whether the Minister or the Second Church Estates Commissioner will answer it. As the Second Church Estates Commissioner said, bishops are currently appointed to the other place on the basis of seniority. I understand that to change that we shall need primary legislation, because otherwise the advent of women in the other place will come about at some far distant time, and none of us wants that. The Second Church Estates Commissioner said that the Government had not yet found time for that legislation, but why is that? The Clerks inform me that only eight Bills are before Parliament at the moment, whereas in a year we normally have 22 Bills going through the House, so there seems to be lots of time available.

Sir Tony Baldry: Clearly, I did not express myself with my usual clarity. The situation is more that the Government are in the process of finding this time. The hon. Lady and I have been here long enough to know what it means when at business questions the Leader of the House gives the impression that time might be found eventually, in the distant future. This is much more about when, not if, the Government find time within the legislation programme. That is very much the impression I have got from my discussions with the Leader of the House and his equivalent in the other place.

Helen Goodman: I am glad to hear that, because I am confident that such legislation would receive a fair wind from Members on both sides of the House, so it is not as though it will take up a huge amount of time; it is a purely practical thing.

Mr Frank Field: I promise not to intervene again. The business is going to collapse three and a half hours early tonight, so if the Government had been prepared, we could have dealt with that measure tonight.

Helen Goodman: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right about that. I had thought we were going to do the primary legislation when we came back in September, but it was not to be. I hope the Minister will give us a firm commitment on this tonight.

I urge all hon. Members to support the Measure for the consecration of women bishops. It has widespread support in the Church, in the House and in the country. I am proud to have been able to speak in this debate. The time of crying is past; the time of singing has come.

5.31 pm

Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I do not wish to detain the House, but I join the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) in praising my right hon. Friend the Second Church Estates Commissioner. I have served on the Ecclesiastical Committee for a short time and it is an honour to work alongside him. With great thought and care he undertakes his role and has expedited this Measure so well through the House over the past three months. I say a heartfelt thank you on behalf of all those who will not have the opportunity to speak in tonight’s debate.

I am proud to represent the diocese of Truro—indeed, the cathedral is in my constituency—particularly as I was confirmed there and I have the great privilege of

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worshipping there regularly. I was delighted that in May the diocesan synod voted overwhelmingly in favour of the consecration of women bishops, and I want to share with the House the marvellous way in which that debate was conducted. The discussion was heartfelt but measured and considered. I echo the words of the Second Church Estates Commissioner about the great progress that has been made within the Church of England on the way in which people talk to and engage each other. During the debate many people were swayed by the citing of a number of female Cornish saints and the great contribution they made to the early development of Christianity. That was a timely reminder of the significant role that women have played in the Church over many centuries. There was a reflection on the great contribution that ordained women priests have made in the diocese of Truro in the past 20 years, and a recognition of the broad views held in the community for this very positive Measure.

Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): My hon. Friend has made a number of good points and she is right in all she says about the work of the Second Church Estates Commissioner. Does she agree that there is a fantastic opportunity for a woman to become a bishop very soon in my constituency, as our current bishop, Bishop Michael, retires in only a month’s time, after 10 years’ outstanding service? Does she agree that that great opportunity should not be missed?

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We have seven speakers to come. I hope that it will work out that they have about seven minutes each.

Sarah Newton: I thoroughly agree with that bid from my hon. Friend and I can think of an excellent candidate who is sitting with us this evening and whom all of us would thoroughly recommend to be one of the earliest adopted new bishops.

Passing this motion this evening is the right thing to do not only for all the reasons that have already been expressed but because it will help the Church of England reach out and continue in its vital mission of engaging with a whole new generation of people. That will only strengthen the Church so that it continues to contribute to the national life of people of Christian faith and people of none.

5.35 pm

Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): It was an extraordinary Synod of the English Church, taking place as it did on a site of two religious communities—one of men and the other of women—both of which were headed by a female abbess. I am talking not about last summer’s General Synod of the Church of England or even any English Church Synod over the past 1,000 years, but about the 7th century and Abbess Hilda of Whitby.

As we have this debate today, we have to reflect on the leadership of women—some ordained and some lay—in our parishes around England, Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom. Today also provides us with a moment to reflect on those who have served in ministries in many different capacities, but whose undoubted vocation was never recognised through the institutional structures

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of the Church. I think it was the French philosopher Pascal who once said that God made man in his own image, and man returned the compliment. That has been true in the ecclesiastical structures in this country.

You will know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I am not English, and I am also not much of a sports watcher. But in the words of a 1990s football song, what we are seeing is the English Church coming home, and we are all the richer for it.

I think it was in 1989 when the first female bishops in the Anglican communion were consecrated in New Zealand. We have had a bit of a wait in this country. The Church in Wales decided to support women bishops last year. Interestingly, as we have the debate about alternative episcopal oversight, it is worth looking at the model that the Church in Wales has taken, which does not go down the flying bishop route. However, such an issue requires a much wider discussion.

I was really heartened by what our Second Church Estates Commissioner said on the subject of the Lords Spiritual and how the process is likely to be accelerated. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) has made the point many times that if the change does not come down the route of the Church, then it is only right that it comes down a different route, and I hope that that will happen.

The one thing that separates the Church of England from the Church in Wales is the fact that the Church of England is an established church. Most of us laboured under the misapprehension that the Church in Wales was disestablished, but when we had the debate on equal marriage we discovered that what we thought had happened in 1920 had not really happened. Perhaps we can finish off the job before it reaches its centenary.

As long as we have people who are not elected in the second Chamber, I can accept that representatives of the established church should probably be there, but what I cannot accept is an all-male Bench of bishops. I am heartened by what has been said this evening, and I very much hope it happens. Let us see today as that great moment of celebration—of women celebrating their vocation and making our lives all the richer for it.

5.38 pm

Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): May I briefly say that in my 39 years in Parliament I have shared in part the pain of many good women who could have made the Church even better if they had been able to be ordained as priests and not just as deacons, and if they had been ordained as bishops long before the present time? Too often we have walked in sympathy with the parishes and the people who have found that difficult, and I deeply regret that the whole matter has been so one-sided. If Graham Leonard were here now, I would quote back to him what he said to me: that he was not in favour of the ordination of women as priests because he thought it had not happened before. He was in favour of the ordination of women as deacons because it had happened before. That is the historical negative. If Jesus brought anything into our world, it is justice and righteousness. We should have picked that up, and should have forced this change through far earlier.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has given great leadership, and many others have co-operated; I am glad of that. If, as the archbishop said in another place,

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the bishops are a focus of unity, I ask all bishops, whether flying bishops or not, to ask every parish that went for resolution A and B to reconsider. In my constituency, there is a parish that, sadly, is to close. When people asked me whether I would campaign to help it remain a parish, I said, “You do realise that the first time I saw your church, it had a sign outside saying, ‘Be reassured: no woman will offer you Communion here’?” A parishioner said that she did not know that, but people should ask, and if for some reason, 20 years ago, that is what the parish went for, parishioners should ask it to review that decision, whatever the pain or difficulty, to revise it, and to come to the unity that the Archbishop of Canterbury has asked for.

Tribute was rightly paid in the other place to Women and the Church, or WATCH, with which I am associated. I was outside Church House when the ordination of women as priests was agreed. Some of those singing most heartily were Roman Catholic nuns, who said, “For us, it is a matter of when, rather than whether.” We are obviously way behind the Methodists, but we ought to get on, and try to help our brethren and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church to have the same kind of opportunities as us.

Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): The Church is well behind the Baptists, too, if I may say so. I joined the Church of England a long time ago, but these days, as a Baptist, I wonder what all the fuss is about, and I share my hon. Friend’s resolve. Does he agree that there is scope in religion for people to tolerate genuine differences and to go their own way in peace?

Sir Peter Bottomley: I agree with that; it is one of the reasons why people are concerned that excluding the Church of England from the Equality Act 2010 may make it possible for the Church to go in for more discrimination on the grounds of sexuality or with regard to the remarriage of divorced people. That works both ways.

I want to end this speech, which is briefer than I wanted, with the words of a woman who wrote to me: “We love the Church of England, and want it to be the best it can.” With this Measure, it can be better.

5.42 pm

Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Anybody looking in on this debate from outside would be rather surprised at how low key and sober it has been, given the momentousness of what we are debating and hopefully approving. I suspect that it is because most people will be rather surprised that this was not done some time ago. They probably thought it had been. Still, that should not detract from the importance and the historic nature of this evening’s debate, or of the approval for this Measure.

I hope that the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who speaks on behalf of the Church of England, will answer the technical questions raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), and by Lady Howe in the other place. However, I do not want to spend my few minutes focusing on technicalities. There have been few moments in the House of Commons that have given me this much pleasure. I joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women as a teenager; some may think that rather sad.

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Apologies to my Labour colleagues, but I joined the movement several years before I joined the Labour party.

We should pay tribute to all the campaigners over the years who spent a lot of their time getting us to where we are, and who took a lot of stick. I also pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Banbury, because—without sparing his blushes—he has been the most fantastic Second Church Estates Commissioner. He has shown leadership on the issue; after the previous Synod debate, which took us all by surprise and shocked the nation as well as the Church of England, he went back to the Synod, the bishops and the Archbishop of Canterbury and made it absolutely clear to them that Parliament would not put up with the situation.

We sometimes underestimate the role that we can play in this place, but the fact that we spoke with one voice, and such a strong voice, in response to that terrible vote two years ago in Synod really made a difference. I was involved in some of the meetings and discussions with the bishops and the archbishop. They were sobered by the vote, and were certainly unnerved by some of the discussions that we had in this place, saying, “If you can’t sort this out yourselves, we will sort it out for you through legislation. You had better watch the Church of England’s established status if you carry on like this.” That did concentrate minds, and it was largely to do with the right hon. Gentleman’s tireless work. I shall miss him in this place, not just because of the role he plays in the Church, but as one of the few sane Tory voices on Europe. I am sorry to lose that from the House as well.

I also pay tribute to the Archbishop of Canterbury. I always said that I thought that it would take somebody coming from his tradition within the Church of England to drag it into the modern age, and I am in danger of being proved right. He has shown real leadership and determination as well as organisational skills, and political skills with a small p, which are essential in that job to get anything done. The majority that was achieved in the Synod last time took my breath away given what had happened the time before.

The hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), who is no longer in his place expressed some concern that what we are doing here tonight might damage our relationships with the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. There are many in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches who wish they were in the same position that we are now moving to in the Church of England. Pope Francis, bless him, had his own difficulties this week in Rome with his own bishops in his attempts to drag the Roman Catholic Church a little further into our century. I urge him to take comfort from the experience of the Church of England during the last two or three years: if at first you do not succeed, just try again. I am sure he will have more success next year in his final Synod. Perhaps they could look at our experience and take some comfort from it.

I also want to thank all colleagues on both sides of the House who have worked very hard on the issue and have made sure that Parliament’s voice has been heard. In particular, I refer to those tireless campaigners, such as Margaret Webster, the widow of the former Dean of Norwich, who, when I was a teenager and she was one of the founding members of the Movement for the

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Ordination of Women, nobbled me to join that organisation. It was really my first experience of political activism. I do not know how many other Members’ first experience of political activism was on such an issue, but it taught me about the importance of perseverance, of campaigning, of not giving up, and of making and winning the arguments. Heavens, it has taken us a long time, but it gives me fantastic delight and pleasure that we are getting here tonight. There will be a lot of people out there in the country, not just women themselves, but millions of ordinary Anglicans, who will be celebrating this evening.

5.47 pm

Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I very much welcome the Measure before the House. I have had more than my fair share of difficult conversations with the Church of England during recent months, but I have always found that it listens closely, and when it comes to women bishops, it has acted swiftly. I certainly pay tribute to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, my right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), for his work in bringing this about. I also echo the comments of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) in support of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has shown tremendous leadership.

Perhaps it is the extraordinary simplicity of the Measure that has made it succeed where others have not. Many of us will remember sitting in this Chamber back in November 2012 with feelings of anger and disappointment at what had happened. It is very good news indeed and a moment for celebration that, as a result of today, women bishops can be appointed. That is very much a point of celebration. In too many areas women are still under-represented in British society. In the Church of England, the stained glass ceiling, as the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) has termed it, was enshrined in law. Today we have the opportunity to ensure that that is no longer the case.

My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) noted the contribution of women in our communities through the Church, and my community is the same as hers. We are much the richer for the work of people such as the Rev. Cannon Jo Stoker in St Michael’s church, and in my parish, in Mapledurwell, the Rev. Jane Leese, who does an incredible job in leading our community.

I will end my remarks with two simple points. First, during the discussions in the summer, the Archbishop of Canterbury made the important point that women bishops, and, indeed, women in the Church of England, would now be on an equal footing with men, and that in no sense would that not be the case.

Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the most important thing about that statement of equality is that other young women contemplating coming into the Church will be looking closely to see that that equality goes the whole way through to representation in the Lords?

Maria Miller: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. If we are to get the brightest and best wanting to go into the Church, that has to be the case. We have to respect

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all views, of course, but it is important that we send a clear message, today and in future, that women will have that equal status and equal footing in the Church.

Secondly, perhaps the Church can look at this place and take away some positive and not so positive messages. We are still working very hard to get more women in Parliament and public life. Despite very good measures introduced by both the Labour and Conservative parties to encourage more women, only by having the pathway of encouragement can we get women to achieve their potential at all levels. I gently encourage the Church to consider what pathways it will put in place. It is very encouraging to hear about the work being done with regard to the Lords Spiritual, but one swallow does not make a summer. We must ensure that it is more than simply one or two individuals who go forward and that women in the Church are supported to achieve their potential at every level.

5.51 pm

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I have just been reading that it was in 1988 that the first female bishops were elected in the US and New Zealand—the Right Rev. Barbara Harris and the Right Rev. Penny Jamieson. I am very pleased that we are about to agree to this Measure, hopefully unanimously. I feel far happier now than I did when I rose to speak on 21 November 2012, when for the first time the Church of England was called to the Chamber to answer an urgent question in response to the vote in the General Synod that had taken so many right hon. and hon. Members aback.

I want to make a few short comments. First, I want to pay tribute to all the women and men who over many years have campaigned on this issue: to bring the full extent of women’s ministry into the Church of England so that they can rightly take their places as deacons, priests and now bishops, and hopefully as archbishops. When I went to university—many years ago now—I had the great privilege of being a student at St Benet’s chaplaincy at Queen Mary university, which was where the Movement for the Ordination of Women had its headquarters. In fact, the chaplain got into a lot of trouble by allowing a communion to take place with a women priest, and unfortunately had to leave the Church and go elsewhere as a result. I was very struck then, as a young student, by the inequity of these very good women being denied the opportunity to become priests in the Church of England. When the ordination of women as priests took place over 20 years ago, I naively thought that we were all reconciled to the fact that women would now go on to become bishops, so it was a great shock when the vote went against us two years ago.

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): As a fellow Yorkshire MP, my hon. Friend will know that last Friday we were privileged to have two new bishops made in York Minster—the Archbishop of York presided and the sermon was given by the Archbishop of Canterbury. That was the day we got a Bishop for Huddersfield, so it was very historic. Is she, like me, looking forward to getting a woman bishop in the Church of England soon?

Diana Johnson: I do not think my hon. Friend was in his place earlier when I made a bid for the position of Bishop of Hull—the current one is moving on to a new

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role—to be considered for one of the first woman bishops. However, there is a queue, because this has already been raised in Oxford and other parts of England.

We should particularly recognise the contribution made by Women and the Church, or WATCH, whose members, including Sally Barnes and Hilary Cotton, have campaigned on these issues for many years. Because of their perseverance—they have kept on going and kept on arguing—we are finally having this debate today.

I want to hear what the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) has to say about the technical questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I am very concerned about clause 2 and would prefer it not to be there. We are talking about the established Church of England, and it is very wrong that we are allowing it through legislation to opt out of the Equality Act 2010.

Will the right hon. Member for Banbury also comment on whether any time limit should be considered regarding the special provision to deal with people who struggle with this issue? Surely we must get to a point where it is clear that the Church has made a decision, and perhaps after a certain length of time that provision should be set aside.

I am delighted that we are finally here today—it has taken a very, very long time. I hope that Ministers will be able to give some indication of when legislation will be brought before this House so that matters can be expedited to ensure that we have a woman bishop in the House of Lords as soon as possible.

5.56 pm

Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): Two themes have emerged in this debate. First, we pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) for bringing this Measure forward and really pressing the issue via all aspects of Parliament; and, secondly, we all feel a lot happier than we did when we last discussed the matter in December 2012. It gives me great pleasure to see this debate taking place.

This is a historic moment that we should note, because it gives the Church a real chance to look more like the society that it seeks to serve. A Church with women in office at the highest levels of authority will better reflect British society today. As the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) said, we want women to contribute at all levels and across all fields, and we think that society at large is better for it. That relates to the Church as well. In the debate in 2012, we were all hoping that the Church would expedite matters in seeking to revisit its decision, and we should pay tribute to it for doing so. I am particularly pleased that the Church itself has come to the decision to have women bishops.

This is a particularly important matter for my constituency because we have a strong Anglican communion around Durham cathedral, with lots of very strong women who have campaigned for this Measure over the years. I thank them for the fantastic work they have done on this, and for not giving up but carrying on and keeping the issue alive, which was often not very easy for them. We have a training college, Cranmer hall, attached to St John’s college, that trains priests. The young women training to be priests there are very pleased that this issue is now being resolved, because they did not want

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to feel that they were going into a vocation where they were treated like second-class citizens, and now they know they can go on to the very highest levels in the Church. On Saturday morning, I spoke to a young woman vicar in my constituency, Miranda Holmes, who told me just how much this Measure means to her and to other women in the Church. She asked whether I was going to come to this debate and I said that I would because I really support this Measure.

Like hon. Members on both sides of the House, I think that some issues remain to be resolved and assurances need to be given on them. The bishops’ declaration allows for parishes to request a male bishop, but there seems to be no comparable provision for non-discriminating parishes finding themselves under a bishop who declines to ordain women priests who request a woman or, indeed, a male bishop who is supportive of women.

Fast-tracking is also an issue. As I am sure hon. Members are aware, women could not be ordained priests before 1994, so the length of their priestly service has historically been restricted. As such, there is an urgent and important need for selection criteria to reflect the full range of women’s experience. Finally, I agree with colleagues that we will need to push for a change to clause 2, which declares that the office of bishop is “not a public office”.

Unlike other hon. Members, I am not going to make an immediate bid for a woman bishop in Durham, because we have been through considerable change over the past few years and probably need a period of stability. In future, however, I am sure we would really welcome a woman bishop in Durham.

6.1 pm

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): God, this has been a long time coming, hasn’t it? Sometimes, hymns suddenly seem relevant. A couple of weeks ago I sang the hymn “God is working his purpose out as year succeeds to year”, but in this case it seems to have been “decade succeeds to decade” or even “century succeeds to century”. Finally, however, God is working her purpose out.

I, too, pay tribute to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who has done a fabulous job. He has led on our behalf and I think he has done so admirably, as has the Archbishop of Canterbury. Given that Rochester is in the news at the moment—we are all taking a keen interest in it—I think we should also pay tribute to the Bishop of Rochester, who has played a really important role in driving forward the process.

But so many bruised hearts there have been. The former Bishop of London, Graham Leonard, has been mentioned. He once said that a woman was no more ordainable than a potato, yet he managed to rise to one of the highest offices in the Church—undoubtedly because of his tact, diplomacy and care for others. Seriously, though, we need to remember the bruised hearts of so many people.

I think I am the only Member of the House who has had a bishop lay hands on them to ordain them. When I went to theological college in Cuddesdon in the 1980s, it was the first year that more than one woman was in training there. The women could no longer be treated as honorary chaps, but the vitriol to which they were regularly subjected—I have to say that it was nearly always by gay men—was beyond the pale of Christianity.

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Mr Bradshaw: They were in the closet.

Chris Bryant: Those gay men were all in the closet. The situation caused those women pain and many of them cried themselves to sleep on many nights during their ordination period. They believed that some people believed that they had no vocation and those people were prepared to use every means in the book to ram that home.

It is particularly ironic that, as one gay man walked in to be ordained bishop, he wore a mitre with the first word of the first Latin hymn on it—“Gloria”—because that had been his nickname at theological college, but he was not prepared to support the ordination of women priests or women bishops. That really rankled with me, because the battle for decency and the rights of all within the Church is a seamless garment—it does not distinguish between the rights of gay men and those of women in the Church.

So much time in so many ministries has been wasted when we could have had wonderful women ministers working in our churches. Did Teresa of Avila have no spiritual insight? Did Josephine Butler have no leadership or political acumen in the 19th century? Did Julian of Norwich have no felicity with language or theology? Of course these women had something phenomenal to offer, and it is extraordinary that people might think that those three aspects—spiritual insight, political leadership and theological insight, which are the foundation of the episcopacy—should not be recognised in women.

How bizarre it is that that should not be recognised in England. England had mitred abbesses sitting in Parliament in the 13th century. It of course had a succession of women monarchs, who were heads of the Church and who appointed bishops. For that matter, it has had a woman Prime Minister who also appointed bishops. It is a country in which women could be elected as a sexton or a church warden long before they could be elected to Parliament, yet we still thought that women could not be bishops. That flies in face of Galatians 3:28:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

I resigned my orders in 1996 to be able to stand for Parliament. For that matter, I resigned as a Parliamentary Private Secretary to Lord Falconer—Charlie Falconer—because I wanted to advance the cause of women bishops, but was told that that was part of his area of responsibility and that I therefore could not introduce such a Measure in the House. I pay tribute to all Members of the House who have taken part in the debate. It is almost inevitable that my hon. Friends the Members for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) and for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) should do so; they have a semi-episcopal role, given there are Prince Bishops of Durham.

Anyone who ever doubts the Church’s ability to change should remember Cardinal Martini, a very senior Roman Catholic cardinal, who when asked in 1999 whether his Church would ever have women priests, said, “Not this millennium.” I am certain that it will happen in the Roman Catholic Church, just as it has happened in the Anglican Church. I want to end—

Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give way?

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Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend has heard the word “end”, I suppose. Yes, of course I will.

Sir Tony Cunningham: I remember a Catholic priest telling me that he was opposed to Anglicans turning away from their Church to become Catholics because of women priests, saying, “I wonder where they’ll go when there are Catholic women priests.”

Chris Bryant: Indeed. I want to end with two quotes from Dame Julian of Norwich, a 14th-century anchoress who played a very important part in the establishment of the Anglican spiritual tradition. She wrote:

“Our Saviour is our true Mother in whom we are endlessly born”.

We should never forget the spiritual insight of the feminine aspect of God, which runs all the way through the Old Testament and the New Testament. Secondly, in words that she could have said in the debate today, she wrote:

“But for I am a woman should I therefore live that I should not tell you the goodness of God?”

Of course she had the right to do so then, and of course women have the right to be bishops in the Church of England.

6.8 pm

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): This is a very short piece of legislation, but it has been a very long time in coming: 21 years on from the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure 1993, the Church of England has finally come of age by admitting women for consecration as bishops. Those 21 years of delay have occasioned enormous pain—they have impaired the mission of the Church in the world by rejecting the leadership of half our population—and that is now to be put right. Given that this is without doubt the shortest speech I have ever made in this House, I suspect all my colleagues will find it doubly within their hearts to say, “Hallelujah”.

6.9 pm

Sir Tony Baldry: With the leave of the House, I will respond to a number of the points that have been made.

I endorse some of the comments of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), because one of the important things that has come out of this process for the Church of England is a much better way of disagreeing. The difficulty with Churches is that people have very set views about things. For a long time, all that happened was that people reflected sometimes rather entrenched positions. One of the early contributions of the Archbishop of Canterbury was to encourage a culture in which people could disagree better and then reconcile. I hope that that will be reflected in other areas.

A certain amount has been said about clause 2. I want to help the House on this issue, because I do not want there to be any misunderstandings. This evening, the House is considering a Measure to enable there to be women bishops. Within the context of providing for women bishops, the purpose of clause 2 is to enable the House of Bishops’ declaration and the five guiding principles to work without the risk of litigation.

There will be occasions when bishops—men as well as women—have to ask another bishop to exercise some of their functions in relation to a particular parish.

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However, if episcopal posts were public offices, as defined in the Equality Act 2010, appointing to them in the expectation that the person concerned would observe that self-denying ordinance would constitute discrimination in the terms in which the appointment was offered. We do not believe that episcopal offices currently fall within the definition of a public office. Interestingly, it came out in the House of Lords debate last week that membership of the House of Lords does not fall within the definition of a public office in the Equality Act either. However, it is unclear what view the courts would take if the matter were ever tested. Clause 2 therefore puts the matter beyond doubt.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) asked whether parochial church councils will be required to consult their congregations and wider parishes before they pass a resolution. The answer is absolutely yes. The arrangements by which PCCs will pass resolutions is set out in paragraphs 16 to 22 of the House of Bishops’ declaration. The importance of the decision is respected by the fact that at least four weeks’ notice has to be given of the time and place of the meeting, and of the motion to be considered. In addition, the motion will pass only if it achieves an absolute majority of all members of the PCC or a majority of those present at a meeting of at least two thirds of the members of the PCC who are entitled to attend.

On non-discriminating bishops, we must all recognise that in future every diocese will have a bishop who ordains women and who will be a champion for their ministry. There should be no part of England where it is not possible to have a bishop who ordains women. A headship evangelical bishop will be a bishop in the Church of England and a bishop in the Church of God, not just a bishop in a particular constituency, so he will be a bishop for the whole diocese.

The Bill to enable women to become Lords Spiritual will be introduced in due course and will be very short. We could probably have taken it through in the time that was available this evening. It will be a two-clause Bill. I will continue to do my best, through the usual channels, to ensure that we find time for it.

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Sir Peter Bottomley: One question that has not been raised this evening, but was raised in the House of Lords, where the Archbishop of Canterbury’s answer was delphic, is whether the archbishops will consecrate other bishops when they are physically able to do so or whether they will opt out.

Sir Tony Baldry: The Archbishop’s answer was very clear; it was not delphic at all. I commend Lords Hansard to colleagues. He set out the circumstances very clearly. He made it clear that, in the normal course of events, archbishops will consecrate all bishops, but that there will be circumstances when an archbishop is ill or overseas. His point was that there is no great issue about that, and none intended.

In response to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), I hope that in one, two or three years’ time, we will all wonder what the fuss was about. We will see women bishops in the Church of England in the same light as we now see women vicars, archdeacons and deans doing fantastic work as part of the normal course of ministry.

I thank all hon. Members who have said nice things about my role. It has been a privilege to serve as the Second Church Estates Commissioner, and to serve the Church and this House, and I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,,

That the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure (HC 621), passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to Her Majesty for her Royal Assent in the form in which it was laid before Parliament.

Business without Debate

science and technology

Ordered,

That Hywel Williams be discharged from the Science and Technology Committee.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.)

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West Cumberland Hospital

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mark Lancaster.)

6.16 pm

Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): West Cumberland hospital is used by thousands of my constituents who rely on the services it provides on a daily basis. The future of the hospital is an issue close to my heart and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), whose constituency is next to mine. The hospital is based in his constituency, and with the prior agreement of the Minister, whom I thank, and of Mr Speaker, it is right for him to contribute to the debate.

Based in Whitehaven but relied on by people throughout west Cumbria, including tens of thousands of my constituents, the hospital is one of two sites that make up North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust. The trust currently remains in special measures and in limbo over a delayed acquisition by Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust. Reports by Sir Bruce Keogh, the Care Quality Commission and others have revealed serious problems with the trust, from a shortage of staff to governance and management issues. Through the hard work and commitment of clinical and non-clinical staff, improvements are being made—although slowly—and I add my personal and genuine thanks to all the staff who work so incredibly hard at West Cumberland hospital. However, the trust is still in special measures after more than a year.

I pay tribute to the fantastic work done by the We Need West Cumberland Hospital group to raise public awareness. It organised a meeting recently to discuss services at the hospital, which was held in a sports stadium because no indoor facility was big enough to cater for the 4,000 local residents from Allerdale and Copeland who turned up to show support for their hospital.

My hon. Friend and I have worked closely with the group and will continue to do so. Its work has clearly shown the strength of feeling throughout west Cumbria, and the willingness of our communities to engage with the decision-making process when it comes to services at our local hospital. The crux of the issue is that the unwillingness of the hospital trust to engage with communities and local people has meant that all trust has broken down. People want a say in what their local health services do and should look like, yet the door is being shut—slammed in their faces. Because of that lack of openness from the trust, feelings of distrust have grown.

My hon. Friend has repeatedly said that the issues highlighted by Sir Bruce Keogh and the Care Quality Commission must not be used as an excuse to strip services away from west Cumbria, and particularly West Cumberland hospital. However, when decisions are made behind closed doors, that is exactly what the community, my hon. Friend and I fear is happening. Representatives of the trust were present at the recent public meeting, but they did not reassure the local people who attended one iota. Engagement has increased recently, but it feels a bit like reluctant engagement. That cannot, and must not, continue.

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The nearest other hospital is more than 40 miles away from the West Cumberland hospital. The Cumberland infirmary in Carlisle faces many of the same problems, but stripping services from the hospital in Whitehaven to relocate them to Carlisle is in my view, and in the view of my hon. Friend, a recipe for absolute disaster. Taking ambulances out of service to transport patients in need of care more than 40 miles, a journey that takes at least one hour, creates unnecessary and unacceptable risks to patients. Brand-new facilities are about to open in Whitehaven at the West Cumberland hospital which will provide our constituents with a first-class hospital. Surely hospital services should be delivered in the hospital that has been purpose-built to provide them. I will repeat that so that there is no misunderstanding: surely hospital services should be delivered in the hospital that has been purpose-built to provide them.

The high degree of uncertainty surrounding services has been fostered by the lack of engagement from the trust. There seems to be uncertainty about particular services, especially consultant-led maternity services. The atmosphere in which any engagement has been conducted to date has led local residents to believe that the trust is hiding its intentions. If the services at the West Cumberland hospital are not under threat, why has the trust not made that clear? The fact that it has not suggests that the services could indeed be under threat. We cannot, and must not, allow a situation to develop where the lives of mothers and their unborn children are put in danger in the back of an ambulance on the long journey to Carlisle. It is difficult to do a caesarean section in the back of an ambulance.

I understand that members of staff from the trust were not allowed to attend the recent public meeting. That is also totally unacceptable. The trust needs to promote meaningful engagement, rather than shutting down reasonable debate. It is clear that many medical professionals within the trust have concerns about the how the trust is acting. This must change. There is deep concern within the medical community, and their views must be heard.

There is a great strength of feeling within our communities. People who use these services on a day-to-day basis, people who rely on these services when they get ill and the people who will use these services in the future deserve a say in how these services are provided. There is a willingness to engage by the people of west Cumbria. People want to see their services improved and strengthened, and they want to be part of that process. The trust’s lack of engagement cannot continue. It must be willing to engage with all the people of west Cumbria, staff and local residents alike, and the Government must ensure that this happens.

I have two final points for consideration. We keep being told that one reason for change is to create specialisms. For example, if a patient in west Cumbria has heart problems—perhaps they need a triple heart bypass—they may well need to go to a specialist unit such as the one in Middlesbrough. I, and the community, understand that, but perhaps the Minister could tell me what specialism is being planned for the new refurbished West Cumberland hospital, because it needs one.

Finally, my hon. Friend and I are to hold a meeting of interested bodies soon, including some not in the process, such as the university of Central Lancashire and Allerdale borough council, whose leader Alan Smith spoke to me

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this morning. Will the Minister encourage the relevant bodies to attend such a meeting so that we can provide the hospital that the people of west Cumbria deserve?

6.23 pm

Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): I would like to thank your office, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the office of Mr Speaker, for the advice with which they have provided me in the lead-up to today’s debate. That a Member of Parliament could have been prevented from speaking on an issue that relates directly to his constituency and constituents owing to the decision of an individual Minister, is too absurd to contemplate. That would have made a mockery of our democratic process at a time when there is a growing dislocation between the public and Parliament. This Chamber exists precisely for the purpose of holding power to account and if any Minister in any Government believes they can be exempted from that then they are badly wrong. That said, I am exceptionally grateful to the Minister for granting me permission to speak. I would also like to extend my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Sir Tony Cunningham) for securing this debate and congratulate him on his richly deserved knighthood over 12 months ago now—this is the first chance I have had to do so in public.

My hon. Friend and I have campaigned consistently on behalf of West Cumberland hospital in a fight that will continue for as long as it is necessary. The Government must not try to shut down the debate, especially given that patients, the public and medical professionals across west Cumbria require clear and open discussion and genuine public engagement regarding the future of our hospital—the first new hospital built after the establishment of the national health service.

We need the support of the Government in ensuring that such engagement takes place. The Government’s health reforms, of which I am a long-standing critic, were billed as devolving decisions about local health services to the communities relying on them, but in Cumbria, which the previous Health Secretary said should be the template for the whole of the country—consider that for a minute—engagement could not be any worse. In my constituency and that of my hon. Friend, the Minister will find tens of thousands of people willing to engage with the Government—and with the trust, for that matter—on the future of their services, but their voices are being deliberately ignored.

Before I continue, I must declare my interest in this topic. I was born at West Cumberland hospital; my four children were born there; my wife was born there; and over the past few years, it has saved my life not once, but twice—which I appreciate sounds careless. I am indebted to its staff for all they have done for me and countless others from my part of the world. The hospital has been one of the main focuses of my efforts since I was elected to this place, and it will remain so for as long as I am here.

I do not wish to repeat what my hon. Friend said, but I want to echo my support for the We Need West Cumberland Hospital campaign group. These are local people exercised by what is happening to their national health service. They have created a group with passion and purpose, and it is time for decision makers to sit up and take notice of them—that means the Government

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as well as the trusts in question. The group exists only because the local health economy is in turmoil and because its members, like everyone else, are being purposely shut out of decisions relating to their hospital, as service decisions are made and increasingly removed by stealth.

As my hon. Friend pointed out, just a few weeks ago this group of concerned people organised a public meeting to discuss the future of services at West Cumberland hospital. About 4,000 people attended on a dark Monday evening at the recreation ground in Whitehaven. Had we held it on a summer weekend, only a few weeks earlier, more than 10,000 people—easily—would have attended.

My constituents are deeply concerned. The lack of engagement from the North Cumbria trust and other decision makers has fostered a feeling of toxic distrust. This simply is not conducive to establishing faith or trust, or to building the local services my constituents, the people of west Cumbria and the whole of the Cumbrian health economy need. I implore the Minister to intervene to stop this behaviour and ensure that an effective framework of meaningful public engagement is put in place before it is too late. I hope he can write to the North Cumbria trust to ensure this takes place.

Consultation is one thing, but meaningful engagement is another thing altogether. Rather than simply being consulted on a plan designed by the trust behind closed doors, it would be much more beneficial to have public involvement in what the plan should look like before it is consulted on. Surely that would make for a much easier, expedited consultation and a much easier, effective implementation. We did that locally prior to 2010 and we should do so again. I hope the Minister will address that point directly.

I want to address the concerns expressed about the services provided by West Cumberland hospital. The vacuum left by the lack of engagement from the trust means that local people are understandably worried about what their services will look like in the coming years, and the ability of the trust to engage with local people has been clearly and demonstrably worsened by the recent reorganisation of the NHS. However, the acquisition of North Cumbria by the Northumbria trust is also proving to be a significant problem. I hope the Minister will pay careful attention to this point. The acquisition cannot proceed unless both Monitor and the Care Quality Commission are satisfied that the trust is both financially and clinically sustainable.

The acquisition was meant to provide certainty and stability, yet years later the process has provided neither. In fact, the uncertainty is only worsening matters. There are justifiable fears that financial sustainability will be achieved by reducing, and only by reducing, the amount of services provided at the West Cumberland hospital, under the guise of “clinical sustainability”. Will the Minister agree today to stop any further progress of the acquisition of North Cumbria by Northumbria unless a comprehensive public consultation on the future of services provided by the West Cumberland hospital is undertaken prior to an acquisition? The people of west and north Cumbria need the Government’s help with that, which is the least the Government could do.

We have already seen some services move from the West Cumberland hospital to the Cumberland infirmary at Carlisle, itself a hospital in serious difficulty. People are

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worried that more services will follow and they are especially worried about consultant-led maternity services being transferred from West Cumberland to Carlisle.

Sir Tony Cunningham: The journey between West Cumberland and Carlisle is 40 miles, but some people have to go to Newcastle—for example, for chemotherapy. Just think of the anguish when children have to have chemotherapy as far away as Newcastle, which is almost 100 miles away.

Mr Reed: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely pivotal point. This is about not just the effectiveness and efficacy of the clinical solutions provided by the NHS; it is about the patient experience and the best outcomes for patients, and not just those 40 miles from Carlisle and further afield. The 40-mile point is Whitehaven, but it is actually much further south than that: it is Egremont, Cleator Moor, Seascale, Wasdale, Eskdale and so on. It is the people there who, perhaps more than others, are disadvantaged by these moves.

Childbirth is one of the biggest moments in any parent’s life, but the elation and happiness that surrounds a new family at this time can all too often turn to stress, worry and fear. Any complications can have a catastrophic effect—I have seen this recently with close friends. If there are complications during a labour, it is just not feasible for an expectant mother—particularly one in difficulty—to be transferred 40 miles from Whitehaven and further afield south, on a journey that, as my hon. Friend said, takes well over an hour at the best of times and considerably longer in heavy traffic. On occasion, the roads will become impassable in bad weather. In fact, only this year, after a visit to my constituency, a Minister wrote to one of his colleagues, a Minister in the Department for Transport, pointing out the inadequacy of the A595, bemoaning the state of the road infrastructure. If the roads are not good enough for visiting Ministers, they are certainly not good enough to be transporting patients at the time of their greatest need.

The truth is that a one-hour journey for a mother in labour means more than 90 minutes, bed to bed. That is indefensible. Also, studies have shown that an increase in straight-line ambulance journey distances is associated with an increased risk of death and that an increase of 10 km in straight-line distance is associated with an absolute increase of around 1% in mortality. Consider that for a moment. The centralisation of some services from the West Cumberland hospital in Whitehaven to Carlisle will increase the mortality risk for west Cumbrians much further afield than Whitehaven.

Between 2007 and 2008, the local primary care trust, as it then was, undertook a consultation on local services, to which it received 140,000 responses. As a result, the people of west Cumbria were told that they would receive a new hospital, built on the site of the West Cumberland hospital. The new hospital would retain services, including consultant-led maternity services, and also develop specialisms not catered for at Carlisle. The deal struck was also set to provide newly built cottage hospitals in Millom, Keswick and Maryport, to complement the existing new one built in my hon. Friend’s constituency in Workington.

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When the Government took office in 2010, they scrapped the funding for the new hospital, as they did for all other existing new build hospital projects. It is only through perseverance, hard work and a lot of lobbying by me, my hon. Friend and others that the Prime Minister acquiesced and returned some of the money, for which we are very grateful indeed. However, the full funding was not returned and funds had to be found elsewhere. The Minister will know that to this day I am still consistently making the case—through the trust development authority, NHS England and other bodies—for extra funding. Now that the new hospital site is almost completed, it is only right that the other promises that were made are honoured.

Consultant-led maternity services cannot be removed from the West Cumberland hospital, and the Government must surely intervene to ensure that this does not happen. Before the election, the then Leader of the Opposition and now Prime Minister promised a “bare-knuckle fight” to stop maternity services moving, yet that fight has never appeared. Around the country, people wonder whether it will ever appear. However, can the Minister confirm that there is set to be a nationwide maternity services review? Will he explain when that will begin and end?

I believe that the local CCG in Cumbria wants to commission the consultant-led maternity services at the West Cumberland hospital, but that the North Cumbria trust does not wish to do so. I have submitted a series of freedom of information requests to the trust, seeking its internal proposals for removing consultant-led services; to date, I have received no response. Can the Minister help in that regard? Can he impress on the trust the urgency of the matter and the need for full candour? I hope he will be able to do so in writing.

Report after report by Sir Bruce Keogh and by the Care Quality Commission has shown that there are real issues, as my hon. Friend said, that need to be addressed not only in north Cumbria, but right across the Cumbrian health economy. Staff shortages are having a major impact on the services—not just the type but the quality—that can be delivered. Will the Minister commit himself today to investigate the recruitment practices of the North Cumbria trust? Will he commit himself to assist with recruitment, with financial incentives for potential new staff? This is critical. I am inundated with complaints from staff about the poor quality of recruitment advertising, cancelled interviews for applicants and much more. As a result, we have one of the highest locum spends in the whole country. The Minister will be only too aware of the effect on the trust’s ability to provide, in some cases, even the most basic front-line services.

In the people of west Cumbria, this Government—any Government—the trust and the regulators will find a willing partner for constructive discussions about what services should and could look like. They have been through these issues year after year; they are well versed in them and up to speed with the realities of modern clinical practice—and commissioning decision making, too.

More than that, however, with the brand new hospital being built, we should be able to develop a new model of health care for health economies such as Cumbria’s that is exciting, attractive and sustainable. We should be able to attract top-class medical professionals to our hospitals, and we should be able to support them. As Bruce Keogh

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points out, there is excellence at the North Cumbria trust. These issues are genuinely—we can say this without exaggeration—matters of life and death.

I have asked the Minister a series of questions. There will doubtless be many more, and if he cannot answer them today—I again express my gratitude for being allowed to speak in this debate—I hope he will answer them in writing. In addition, I hope he will agree to meet a delegation of hospital campaigners—from my constituency and that of my hon. Friend—in the Department of Health as soon as possible. Most of all, I hope he will listen to the clear voice of the people of west Cumbria. We need the West Cumberland hospital and the services it provides, and we will fight to the finish to secure the hospital services we deserve and the hospital we were promised. Future generations of west Cumbrians deserve nothing less.

6.37 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter): I congratulate the hon. Member for Workington (Sir Tony Cunningham) on securing this evening’s debate, and I commend him for his interest in local health matters affecting his constituents, and for his clear advocacy of the needs of local patients.

We all understand that the configuration of local health services is an important issue for many Members—and for many of our constituents—particularly those who represent the more rural parts of the country such as Cumbria. We all agree that patients should receive high-quality care, regardless of where they live.

These are challenging times for the West Cumberland hospital. There have been difficult decisions to face up to, following the Keogh review, and the hospital has been put on special measures, following concerns about some aspects of patient care. I will say a little more later about that and about the importance of patient and public engagement in all decisions affecting the reconfiguration of local health care services.

First, I want to provide hon. Members with some reassurance about the future of local health services. It is important to note that for the first time in more than 50 years significant investment is being made under this Government in health care facilities in west Cumbria. The West Cumberland hospital is being redeveloped at a cost of £95 million, with this Government providing £70 million of that funding. The improved hospital will offer high-quality services and facilities fit for the 21st century, including significant local elective surgical services for the benefit of local patients.

The local doctors in the Cumbria clinical commissioning group are committed to keeping West Cumberland hospital clinically and financially viable, with the majority of Whitehaven patients continuing to access services, including A and E, at that hospital. I would also like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that it is the local doctors and nurses who run the clinical commissioning group—not me or anyone in Whitehall—who will make the decisions about health care in Whitehaven and Cumbria.

Before I move on to the specifics of the issues raised by the hon. Gentleman, it is worth noting the long-running issues at North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust and the progress that has been made towards addressing them. Because of a history of high mortality rates—which means that more people were dying at the

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trust than should have been the case—the trust was placed into special measures in July 2013 as a result of Sir Bruce Keogh’s review. The trust is now working towards a merger with Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust, which will further ensure that it can offer safe, high quality and sustainable patient services.

The trust has continued to work hard to tackle its long-running problems with recruitment of medical staff. It has recently implemented a nurse practitioner work force model to replace trainee doctors, who are currently not being placed at the trust due to long-standing difficulties in ensuring the necessary levels of senior medical training support. A recent positive development is that the trust has increased its consultant medical staff by 17%, as well as introducing a new nursing structure, which is helping to ensure safe nurse staffing levels on every ward.

Sir Tony Cunningham: Why does the Minister think there is such a shortage of doctors?

Dr Poulter: This has been a long-standing shortage; the trust has not been an attractive place for junior doctors to work for many years—probably for the past decade. However, the trust is now looking at ways in which it can better incentivise doctors to work there. That is an important step forward. If we want junior doctors to return to the trust—given that they have been removed from it because they were not getting the high-quality training they needed in order to become consultants—we must ensure that we incentivise the recruitment of more senior doctors to the trust. The hospital is now looking much more seriously at that than it has done in the past.

As I just outlined, recent measures have resulted in the consultant medical staff being increased by 17%, which is a positive step forward. Measures are also being put in place to ensure that nurse practitioners will be better used, where appropriate, to treat patients. The trust can be proud and pleased with the progress that it is making in that respect. An important aspect of looking after patients is to ensure that there is a full rota of junior doctors on site, and I am sure that if the progress in increasing the amount of consultant cover is maintained, that will become available again in the future.

On performance, the trust has put in place a recovery plan to meet waiting time targets from the end of 2014. It is currently working to reduce its backlog of patients who have been waiting for more than 18 weeks from referral to treatment, and it has received additional funding to support that. As hon. Members have pointed out, however, the trust has been financially challenged for some time. Last year, it reported a deficit of £27.1 million. The Department of Health provided significant financial support to the trust in 2013-14, as it has in previous years. The trust received £11.5 million from the Department, alongside support from the trust development authority and the clinical commissioning group, and £6.3 million in private finance initiative funding support. As we have discussed, however, that position is not sustainable in the long term. That is why further discussions about foundation trust status are being held.

Other critical challenges remain. Most significantly, some services at West Cumberland hospital remain fragile due to difficulties recruiting specialists and consultants

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and to the current heavy reliance on locums. However, I hope that that issue will be addressed in the near future if the trust can continue to recruit more consultants.

The Care Quality Commission inspection report published in July 2014 rated the safety of acute medical and outpatients services at the West Cumberland hospital “inadequate”. That reflects the difficulties that the hospital has faced for many years, and continues to face, in recruiting adequate staff to run some of its services safely and effectively. However, the trust has made significant progress in addressing the many challenges it faces. The CQC inspection acknowledged that, giving it an overall rating of “good” for providing a caring service to patients.

Another CQC inspection is expected to take place in early 2015, and I understand that the trust is working hard to make improvements ahead of that. For example, the outpatients service has greatly improved the availability of patient notes, an issue highlighted at the previous inspection. As I understand it, patients’ notes were not available when they came for an appointment. That is not helpful in providing an understanding of their previous history, which disadvantages the staff who are looking after the patient and trying to provide the best possible care. The trust has taken that issue on board and I understand that it is making good progress to address it.

The trust has made significant progress in other respects, most notably, and perhaps most importantly, in reducing high mortality rates. That means that patients in Cumbria who would have died had these changes not been introduced are alive today. Having been one of the highest in the country, the trust’s mortality rates are now within national confidence limits, and the trust and its staff must be commended for that turnaround. Further progress has also been made in, for instance, the meeting of the four-hour A and E standard, the implementation of a new patient experience programme, and a reduction in clostridium difficile infection rates. However, changes must continue to be made to secure a sustainable future, and to enable the trust to keep building on the good progress that it has made so far. It is important for the local NHS to be supported in that work to secure safe, high-quality patient care.

Mr Reed: Will the Minister explain why mortality rates increased sharply immediately after the summer of 2010?

Dr Poulter: I do not have the local knowledge that would enable me to understand why that happened, but what is important is the need for action to be taken in cases in which there is a history of higher than expected standardised mortality rates—cases in which patients have died when they should not have died. That is why the Government asked Sir Bruce Keogh to investigate this trust, and, indeed, many other trusts, as a result of which some were put into special measures.

Although a number of challenges remain, and the trust must address them, it appears to be making good progress in terms of standardised mortality rates, which means that—as I said earlier—patients who might have died in the past are now surviving. That is testimony to the hard work of the trust’s front-line staff. I know that Members will be pleased, and that, more importantly, local patients and their families will be very grateful.

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The subject of reconfiguration was raised. The issues affecting west Cumbria were discussed during a debate secured in 2012 by the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), and I know that the future of services at the hospital is a matter of continuing concern to both him and the hon. Member for Workington. As I said earlier, the local NHS is committed to ensuring that West Cumberland hospital has a viable and successful future, and that west Cumbrian patients continue to receive treatment there. That is why £95 million—£70 million of it from the Government—is being made available to improve its facilities. The money will allow it to offer 21st-century facilities, including seven new operating theatres, four of which will have full laminar flow, which will make them suitable for use in any operation. That will allow the hospital to offer a wide range of surgical services, and to become a centre of excellence for elective surgical procedures.

The hon. Member for Workington asked what excellence would be provided at the hospital. I can tell him that the investment in new facilities will allow patients to receive elective surgical procedures of a much higher quality, which will hugely benefit the local population. That investment is supported by additional investment in other local health care facilities, including, not far away, the new £11 million Cockermouth community hospital—which was officially opened in August 2014—and the new health centre at Cleator Moor.

Alongside the financial investment in the hospital, there are continuing efforts to attract and recruit new clinicians to North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust. International recruitment campaigns have already taken place, and financial incentives are now available to support recruitment to the posts that are the most difficult to fill. That point arose earlier in the debate. Hospitals often have the flexibility to offer incentives in the event of recruitment challenges and difficulties, and I am pleased that the local trust is taking advantage of the opportunity to offer such incentives to attract new consultants and permanent staff.

To build on the progress that is already being made, clinicians are working towards changes that offer the best opportunities for better outcomes to be given to patients suffering from the most serious illnesses. No changes will take place unless there is clear clinical evidence that they will result in better outcomes.

Understandably, people have concerns when any change to local health care services is being discussed, but it is important that such concerns are not exploited for any political or other purpose, and that all changes that take place are in the best interests of local patients. The five-year plan for the local health service being developed by local doctors and clinical commissioners is looking at how services can be delivered safely and sustainably in the future. In developing the plan, I expect the local NHS to give important consideration to the distance patients need to travel to access services, particularly emergency services. As we have discussed, rural areas are very different from urban areas, and the distance patients may have to travel to access services is an important factor in determining what is safe for patients. Local commissioners need to take note of that.

Mr Reed: The Minister represents a rural constituency. Notwithstanding his medical expertise and knowledge, would he be happy for constituents of his who were in labour and showing complications to have to travel for more than 90 minutes, bed to bed?

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Dr Poulter: That actually may have to happen in my constituency, for example, in cases where my local hospital does not have the right support for a very premature baby in utero once it is born. Neonatal services are not always as well developed at every hospital, and some areas tend to have a regional centre of excellence for neonatal care. As the hon. Gentleman said, there may be a regional centre of excellence for cardiovascular services, heart surgery or other specialist services. We want to ensure that bread and butter, day-to-day medical services are always provided by local hospitals—that is particularly important in rural areas—but we have to ensure when taking these decisions that where there is a clinical case for better patient care to be delivered at a centre of excellence, that case is made and communicated effectively. So, for example, although I would want to ensure, as I have done, that in Suffolk patients are able to receive the best possible care from the local NHS, if they needed super-specialist services and other services that are better provided at a specialist centre, they receive that care from those centres. I have always advocated that important case on clinical grounds.

This is about seeking to provide high-quality day-to-day services, while recognising that some services have to be provided at specialist locations. So when dealing with the potential birth of a very premature baby, it is important that the right support after birth is available, and that is provided by more specialist neonatal intensive care units—for example, Brighton is a regional centre for the south of England for some of those services. It is also important that, where possible, an intrauterine transfer takes place to make sure that the right care is available upon birth and after delivery.

It is also important to stress that in designing and working through what the right patient services are, and in putting together the local five-year plan in Cumbria, certain guarantees and reassurances have been made to the local population. I spoke just now about important day-to-day medical services, and a commitment has been given that there will continue to be an accident and emergency department at West Cumberland hospital. That is part of what I was just speaking about: high-quality, immediate services available for patients in more rural and remote areas. An independent review is looking at maternity services across Cumbria and will feed into work locally to find the best possible solution to providing safe and sustainable maternity care in the future.

While the five-year plan outlines the direction of travel for the local health service, no definite proposals have yet been put forward, and work remains at an early stage. In developing its proposals, I expect the local NHS to ensure that patient safety is a key focus, and that any movement or change of services is based on clear clinical evidence of better outcomes for patients.

I wish to make some important points about public engagement, which was raised by both hon. Gentlemen. It is important that people who use NHS services get a say in any changes to those services. We are very clearly committed to that as a Government, and it is important that local clinical commissioning groups, and the doctors and nurses who run them, properly engage with the public when they are making the case for the future shape of local health care services. I encourage local patients to continue to engage with the NHS as plans for west Cumbria are developed.

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I understand that Cumbria CCG has met local MPs and the local campaign group to discuss their concerns and is happy to maintain that dialogue and continue to meet to discuss issues of concern in the weeks and months ahead.

The local NHS held a period of engagement to inform the development of the five-year plan. Both the CCG and the trust are committed to undertaking more engagement and communication with local people in the coming months.

Any proposals put forward for significant changes to local health services will be subject to a full public consultation in which patient and public views can be fully engaged in helping to shape future health care services. That is an important reassurance to give Members. No decisions will be made without that full public consultation if and when any changes to services are proposed.

In conclusion, I know that local people care deeply about the future of West Cumberland hospital—that has come across clearly from the contributions this evening. The provision of health care services affects all members of the community. We have only to look at the example of 10-year-old Maddy Snell who last week received a reply from the Prime Minister to her letter about potential changes to local health care services to see how the whole community in west Cumbria wants to be involved in the future of its hospital.

Patients should keep up that engagement with the local NHS and make their opinions known to those developing proposals for the future of local health care services. I also want to encourage the people of Whitehaven to listen to the reasoning behind any proposals that their local doctors bring forward for improvements in the way in which people are cared for in the local area.

I should like to reiterate that local health services in west Cumbria have a strong future. There is a commitment from the local CCG, led by doctors and nurses, for a continuing accident and emergency service, and the Government support a £95 million investment in health care facilities at West Cumberland hospital.

Mr Reed: The Keogh report makes it very clear that meaningful engagement with the staff both at the Cumberland infirmary, Carlisle, and the West Cumberland hospital is nothing like it should be. That is one of the key reasons the trust entered special measures. All of us from all parts of the House want to see the hospital trust emerge from special measures as quickly as possible. However, latterly, that engagement internally has demonstrably worsened. How can we get out of special measures if these behaviours persist?

Dr Poulter: Part of the challenge may well be challenging some of the existing work practices at the hospital. I accept what the hon. Gentleman has said about the quality and commitment of local NHS staff. In my experience, I have never found a member of the NHS who has been engaged in health care with anything but the best intentions and the wish to help people. That is why I am a doctor and why many people go into health care; they want to provide compassionate care for people and to improve the human condition. I know that that is what drives local staff in Cumbria. Sometimes when profound issues have to be faced, such as higher than expected local mortality rates, challenging conversations

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have to take place. Such issues are the result of not a lack of commitment or dedication from the staff, but the fact that some working practices need to be improved. Additional training and support may need to be put in place to improve those working practices. It is important that that is done in a way that brings staff along in a collaborative working environment.

When things go wrong in health care, it is rare that there is one single causal factor, although sometimes there is; sometimes it is the negligent act of one person. Often, however, it is the system in a hospital that has let someone fall through the gaps. This is about challenging working practices, and as far as possible, that has to be done collaboratively. Clearly, there have been huge improvements in the way health care is delivered locally. Mortality rates have fallen, and patients are being looked after in the way we would all expect. That is down to the hard work of the staff who are facing up to some of the challenges, and making sure that they put right what may have been wrong.

It is important that when there are discussions about reconfiguring, changing or developing health care services, local clinical commissioners engage effectively with the hospital and properly with hospital staff. Part of the

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broader consultation and engagement exercise needs to be focused on proper engagement between the clinical commissioning group and the clinicians and other dedicated staff who work at the trust. From what hon. Members are saying, there may be more work to do in that area. I urge the clinical commissioning group to put right any issues, because it is important that everybody signs up to dealing with future challenges.

As I have said, I am confident in the local clinical commissioning group’s commitment to supporting a viable A and E at the hospital. The Government have provided investment to develop facilities further, particularly facilities for surgical procedures, in the hospital and the local area. With that investment, there is a strong future for local hospital services. It is important that local clinical commissioners continue to engage with staff at the trust, and particularly with local patients. After all, if we want a health service that is fit for purpose in Cumbria and elsewhere, it has to be based on the needs of local patients. It is to them, more than anybody else, that local commissioners need to listen.

Question put and agreed to.

7.2 pm

House adjourned.