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Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 62(2)), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The House divided:
Ayes 276, Noes 10.
Division No. 113]
[
10.12 pm
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Amess, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Baker, rh Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, rh Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Barker, rh Gregory
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Binley, Mr Brian
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Bray, Angie
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burley, Mr Aidan
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burt, rh Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Chishti, Rehman
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crockart, Mike
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Philip
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, rh Lynne
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Francois, rh Mr Mark
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fullbrook, Lorraine
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gilbert, Stephen
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Harvey, Sir Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoban, Mr Mark
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Sir Greg
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lamb, rh Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leech, Mr John
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Sir Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Maude, rh Mr Francis
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, rh Esther
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Munt, Tessa
Murray, Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
O'Brien, rh Mr Stephen
Offord, Dr Matthew
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, rh Sir Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pugh, John
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robathan, rh Mr Andrew
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, Amber
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Sandys, Laura
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, rh Sir Nicholas
Soubry, Anna
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stunell, rh Sir Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, rh John
Tomlinson, Justin
Tredinnick, David
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Weatherley, Mike
Webb, rh Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, rh Mr David
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Roger
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, rh Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tom Brake
and
Gavin Barwell
NOES
Durkan, Mark
Hermon, Lady
Hosie, Stewart
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Lucas, Caroline
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Shannon, Jim
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Tellers for the Noes:
Pete Wishart
and
Jonathan Edwards
Question accordingly agreed to.
8 Dec 2014 : Column 747
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Infrastructure Bill [Lords] (Programme)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Infrastructure Bill [Lords]:
Committal
(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 15 January 2015.
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(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
Consideration and Third Reading
(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.
Other proceedings
(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any message from the Lords) may be programmed.—(John Penrose.)
Infrastructure Bill [Lords] (Money)
Queen’s recommendation signified.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Infrastructure Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:
(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by a Minister of the Crown, a person holding office under Her Majesty or a government department, and
(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(John Penrose.)
Infrastructure Bill [Lords] (Ways and Means)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Infrastructure Bill [Lords], it is expedient to authorise–
(a) the making of provision about income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, stamp duty land tax and stamp duty reserve tax,
(b) the charging of fees by the Chief Land Registrar for services relating to local land charges,
(c) the charging of fees in connection with a register of certificates which provide evidence of compliance with building regulations, and
(d) the imposition of a levy on holders of licences relating to the petroleum industry or to the storage of carbon dioxide.—(John Penrose.)
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Electricity
That the draft Electricity Capacity (Supplier Payment etc.) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 10 November, be approved.—(John Penrose.)
8 Dec 2014 : Column 750
Administration
That Mr Robert Syms be discharged from the Administration Committee and Mr Nigel Evans be added.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.)
Public Accounts
That Jackie Doyle-Price be discharged from the Committee of Public Accounts and Stephen Hammond be added.—(Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.)
petitions
Free school transport (Fishburn)
10.24 pm
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): This petition is on behalf of 426 people of Fishburn in my constituency who are opposed to children from the village paying for school transport to their feeder school, Sedgefield community college. I thank the Fishburn mums, Councillor Rachel Lumsdon, Michelle Barker, Sharon Graham, Cheryl Richardson, Claire Gibson, Tracey Cullen and Kim Wright for organising the petition.
The Petition of residents of Fishburn,
Declares that there are plans for the free school transport from Fishburn to Sedgefield Community College to be withdrawn; further that Sedgefield Community College is the only catchment school for Fishburn; further that the withdrawal of free school transport will cost working families £285 per year, per child; and further that the Petitioners are opposed to the implementation of a charge for the school bus from Fishburn to Sedgefield Community College.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage Sedgefield Community College to reconsider the school’s plans to withdraw free school transport from Fishburn.
And your Petitioners remain, etc.
Penkridge Library (Staffordshire)
10.26 pm
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I have great pleasure in presenting this petition from the Friends of Penkridge Library, calling on Staffordshire county council to reconsider its proposed changes to Penkridge library and keep it as a full service library, staffed by trained librarians and offering a range of services for all users. The petition, along with another local petition on similar terms, has been signed by more than 3,200 members of the community in Penkridge and the surrounding area. I pay tribute to the Friends of Penkridge Library, in particular Claire Geoghegan, Sue Roberts, Robert Mottram Jones, Bevan Craddock, Mike Smith and Anne Simms, for all their efforts in setting up and obtaining signatures for this petition.
The Petition of members of the community in Penkridge and the surrounding area,
Declares that the Petitioners fully support Penkridge Library; further that the Petitioners recognise the important role that the library plays for all members of the local community; and further that a local Petition urging for the proposed changes to the library
8 Dec 2014 : Column 751
to be reconsidered was signed by over 3,000 individuals. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage Staffordshire County Council to reconsider proposed changes to the library, and to keep Penkridge as a full-service library, staffed by trained librarians, offering a range of services, workshops and groups for all users.
And your Petitioners remain, etc.
8 Dec 2014 : Column 752
Free Cash Withdrawals
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(John Penrose.)
10.27 pm
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I am grateful for the opportunity to bring this subject to the House. Most of us are lucky enough to take for granted that when we need cash, we can go to the nearest hole in the wall and access our money for nothing without being forced to pay for the privilege. However, many of us do not know how lucky we are. In almost 300 areas of the UK in the bottom quartile of deprivation measures, approximately 300,000 residents are more than a kilometre from an ATM where they can access their money for free.
Thanks to action from LINK, the ATM network, and the work of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), the situation has been getting better over time. Back in 2006 there were more than 2,000 areas without a free ATM. However, the fact that in 300 of some of our poorest areas people still have to pay through the nose to access their own cash is nothing short of a disgrace. One of those areas is in the ward of Lockleaze in my constituency.
LINK produces a financial inclusion map of the UK, showing distances from the nearest free-to-use ATM. Lockleaze can be found by locating the great gaping hole over Bristol. That is Lockleaze, one of the 300 official “outstanding financial inclusion areas”. In plain English, that means people there simply cannot access free cash withdrawals.
Lockleaze is an amazing, warm and vibrant community. It is where I go to church—a shout-out to St James’s—followed by a proper Sunday roast, tea and the Sunday papers at Cookies Cafe on Gainsborough square. But if a customer needs cash for their roast chicken and spuds at Cookies, or indeed for anything else in Lockleaze, the only ATM within a kilometre charges £1.85 for the privilege of accessing their own cash. That would make anyone angry, but for those on jobseeker’s allowance, struggling and able to afford to withdraw only small amounts at a time, it is simply a massive and unaffordable hit. Do not forget that over 7 million people, often our poorest, rely on cash for their regular payments for gas and electricity meters.
The grim irony is that so many of the communities without access to a free ATM are, like Lockleaze, some of the most deprived in our country. The Lockleaze community is warm, strong and vibrant despite the fact that it is among the top 10% poorest areas nationally. Many in Lockleaze simply cannot travel the distances to access cash for free, so they are literally trapped. To put that in context, in another ward in my constituency, Westbury-on-Trym, which is not financially struggling, there are at least six free ATMs just around the war memorial roundabout. It is simply wrong that our least well-off should have to pay the most to access their money.
It is not good enough just to talk about these things for a few months, maybe set up a Facebook page, get a few “likes”, drop a few leaflets, have a bit of a whinge and then move on; it needs to change, and it needs to be sorted. And it can be. In just a few weeks of working on this, I am delighted to report that LINK is coming to do
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a reccy of Lockleaze next week, when we will discuss potential providers and look at the venues that have come forward. We have already found a willing potential venue in The Hub community centre, and we are already talking with interested potential providers of a free ATM.
Many of the problems we hear about in this place seem insoluble, but this is one that we can demonstrate is not. It shows what can be achieved if the issue is properly highlighted, sleeves are rolled up and real work is put in. This is not an insoluble problem. If we can sort this out in Lockleaze, it is not only individual residents who will benefit, but the whole community.
Lockleaze is seeing welcome investment and development in the area. It already boasts, as I have mentioned, an amazing community café called Cookies, run by the amazing Lou and her family, as well as a pharmacy, a newsagents and a smoothie and vegetable bar, and there is more to come. However, if people have to go elsewhere to access their cash, those who can will, and they will spend their cash elsewhere. That will leave the people who cannot travel to access their cash trapped, and it means that all this new welcome investment and the new businesses moving into the area will wither on the vine.
What can be done? The Minister will be relieved to hear that I know that the Government cannot simply sprinkle magic dust cash machines around the country. However, I wonder whether the Government could work more with the industry to identify quickly these free cash deserts, make the data more widely available and prioritise ways in which organisations such as LINK can help bring free ATMs to these free cash deserts. I am a reluctant user of regulation, but perhaps the Government could consider whether it might be possible to introduce banking regulation to mandate the provision of free cash machines by population area.
Finally, we must look at the incentives in place for shops, in particular, to act as free ATM venues and providers. I urge the Government to review the application of business rates to ATMs, and the shops that provide them, to see whether that is deterring provision. I urge local authorities to consider greater use of discretionary relief to exempt shops with free ATMs. I urge my fellow MPs—it is a pleasure to see colleagues here this evening—to look at LINK’s financial inclusion and exclusion map, which is a very interesting document, and ask themselves whether some of those 300,000 people without access to free cash withdrawal are their constituents. These actions can all be taken at a national level to help to eradicate this appalling silent ball and chain around some of our most challenged communities—but Lockleaze needs action now.
To LINK, which is coming to Lockleaze in the next few days to help find a solution, I would say, “Thank you—there is no more deserving community.” To The Hub, which is considering accommodating the ATM and has been so practical and helpful, I say, “Thank you—tell me what else you need.” To the interested free ATM providers who have been in touch, I say, “Welcome. Lockleaze is brilliant. It’s an amazing, vibrant community. It’s going places—get in there before your competitors do.” Finally, to the people of Lockleaze, I say, “We need more than words—more than moribund Facebook groups and forlorn little leaflets.”
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We have similar problems in my constituency, where ATMs are not as available as they should be. I am sure that the Minister will be able to address the issue of how we can encourage banks and building societies to put in ATMs. Perhaps she can also consider raising the awareness of those who use credit cards for withdrawals and should be using debit cards instead. If some of these issues were addressed at this level, that would greatly assist in enabling people to get better access to cash withdrawals without charges.
Charlotte Leslie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He makes an absolutely superb point about financial education and information, which could perhaps empower people to kick up a bit more of a stink about the fact that they are having to pay £1.85 to access their own cash. Often people are just getting on with it—life is pretty tough and they do not want to complain and kick up a fuss. Those people should not be having to pay this money. We should empower them to say “No, this isn’t right and we shouldn’t have to put up with it”. I hope that the Minister will address these points.
A lot of words are said in this place, but we need more than words. It is encouraging that action can be taken when Members raise matters and sleeves are rolled up, but I never promise anything before it is done. However, I do promise my constituents—this might be a slight beacon of hope for other people across the country who cannot access free ATMs when they should be able to—that I will do everything I possibly can to end the scandal of lack of access to their own cash in Lockleaze. I have every faith that the Government will do everything they can as well.
10.37 pm
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Leadsom): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this debate on an incredibly important matter. She has presented her case very eloquently.
I assure the House that this Government are committed to helping ensure the most vulnerable people in society have access to the banking services they need. That is why we took action to tackle payday loans, placing a duty on the Financial Conduct Authority to impose a cost cap. The Treasury, as widely reported, has been in discussions with the banks on improving the minimum standards for basic bank accounts. Only a few weeks ago, I hosted a round-table meeting with senior executives from the UK’s major banks. As part of that discussion, I set industry the challenge of coming up with new and innovative ways in which ATMs can be used to offer a wider range of banking services to consumers. I look forward to hearing back from the banks later this month. One of the most fundamental banking services—the subject that my hon. Friend has raised—is the ability of customers to be able to withdraw their own money conveniently, and free, at ATMs.
Forty-four years ago, the Enfield town branch of Barclays bank opened the first ever automated cash machine in the world—another first for the British retail banking industry. Since then, the ATM sector in the UK has been in a state of constant progress. The number of cash machines has grown from 36,000 in 2001 to over 67,000 this year, making cash far more
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accessible to customers. The number of free-to-use ATMs is at an all-time high, and over 97% of all ATM cash withdrawals by UK cardholders are made free of charge. Pay-to-use machines now account for only 3% of the total volume of transactions.
It is important to recognise that, in areas with greater need for free-to-use ATMs, LINK—the network that connects the UK’s ATM machines—provides subsidies to ATM providers to allow them to offer services under its financial inclusion programme. The LINK scheme is unique in Europe: it allows banks and building societies to give their customers access to cash from any ATM across the UK, no matter which bank they hold an account with. That gives customers universal access to their cash without the need to walk into a bank. Across much of the rest of Europe, pay-to-use machines are the norm and the cost of withdrawing cash is not transparent. By contrast, as I have said, the vast majority of machines in the UK are free to use, and those that are not must be very transparent with their pricing, as per LINK rules, so ATM customers typically get a good deal in the UK.
As my hon. Friend has pointed out, however, some cash machines do charge customers for the withdrawal of cash. These machines are typically operated by independent, non-bank providers, which install ATMs in areas with a low footfall and that tend to be in rural or less well-off communities where banks feel it is not commercially viable to operate a free-to-use machine. The fees they charge need to be completely transparent prior to the customer withdrawing cash, and ensuring that the service is commercially viable is the reason for independent ATM machines charging those fees. If independent ATMs could not charge, they might withdraw entirely from these sites, which would risk leaving the rural and more vulnerable communities with reduced access to cash.
I completely understand, however, the concerns of my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) regarding pay-to-use machines in less well-off communities. I am well aware that it is precisely in those disadvantaged communities that people most need affordable cash machines nearby without having to take public transport several miles to use one. Many hon. Members have made compelling cases for areas in their own constituencies. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) has made representations to me in the past.
I am pleased to inform hon. Members that a programme of work is under way to address exactly that issue. LINK has developed the financial inclusion programme, which sets up free-to-use ATM machines in areas where they are most needed. The programme provides subsidies of £1 million per annum to ATM operators to allow them to operate commercially viable free-to-use ATMs. The cost of this subsidy is shared out among LINK members. Through the programme, 1,400 target areas, mainly in rural and less well-off places, have access to
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an industry-subsidised ATM. In the remaining difficult locations, such as areas with low population or those with a lack of suitable installation sites, LINK has launched specific, individual projects to address that and reports regularly to the Government on progress.
Jim Shannon: ATMs could be set up in post offices, because there are lots of them. There have been some discussions about this issue with the banks in Northern Ireland. Has the Minister given any consideration to setting up ATMs in post offices, where they would be accessible for people in rural communities?
Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that very good point. In fact, precisely one of the challenges I gave to the banks during my recent round table with them was to look at what more they could do to put ATMs in easy to access sites such as post offices and supermarkets.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West is quite right to question the fairness of pay-to-use machines in less well-off areas. However, where customers feel that an area lacks a free-to-use ATM, LINK has made a commitment to assess that location for the suitability of establishing one. As the number of target sites reduces, LINK also has a programme of identifying new segments of consumers for whom there may be access issues. LINK is working with Age UK and Toynbee Hall on specific projects, such as the “Older old” and “Deprived inner-city housing estates” projects, which aim further to improve access to cash for those more vulnerable members of society.
My hon. Friend’s mentioned that Lockleaze in Bristol North West has just one pay-to-use cash machine for 10,000 people. I have looked into the case, and I agree that it is absolutely unacceptable. My officials have contacted LINK, and I am pleased to say that, as she pointed out, it has committed to bringing the area into the scope of its financial inclusion programme. LINK has offered to visit the area to understand any further issues that her constituents are facing in accessing cash and locating free-to-use ATMs in the area.
In conclusion, I believe that the ATM sector is currently working well for consumers. The number of pay-to-use machines is low—only 3% of transactions are made from those ATMs—and the availability of free-to-use machines continues to rise. LINK membership rules offer consumer protection, particularly with regard to transparency of fees. The industry is taking action. For communities that have a greater need for free-to-use machines, LINK is setting them up in many places, and it is looking at how it can help segments of society that currently have difficulties.
I again thank my hon. Friend for raising this important issue and for bringing it to the attention of the House. I assure her that the Government and I will stay closely involved in this issue.