The amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) talks about stating the face value on the ticket. I understand what she is getting at, but this is not a particularly helpful concept to use in legislation because the face value is not clearly defined. A ticket does not necessarily have just one value—there may be delivery and administration charges, and the seller might not know which of those needed to be included in the face value. If the fan selling the ticket got that wrong, the ticket
12 Jan 2015 : Column 661
could end up being cancelled without their knowledge. The value stated on the ticket might not be what the fan paid because of the fan club or early-purchase discounts that have been discussed. People would not want consumers to lose money when they cannot attend an event, and the face value would not always cover what the consumer had actually paid.
There is a more substantive issue of principle. Is it right for Government to tell consumers that they cannot sell items that they have bought second-hand at above the price that they paid for them? If I buy a book for £4.99 and then a very popular film is made of it and a friend offers me £10 for the book, why should the Government get involved and say that it cannot be sold on?
Perhaps unintentionally, the amendment suggests that it is acceptable for an event organiser to cancel tickets that have been sold for above face value. Many hon. Members have addressed the issue of terms and conditions, and some have said that organisations should be able to cancel such tickets, but that would not necessarily always be a fair term. Under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, it would be up to a court to decide on a case-by-case basis, but it may not always be a fair term.
There are problems in the market—as is the case in any market—which is why we have listened and are taking action. We agree on many of the issues relating to consumer information, including consumers not knowing where to go to get redress when they have a problem with a resold ticket. Consumers sometimes raise concerns with event organisers when they should approach the online marketplace where they bought the tickets. Of course, that can be inconvenient and frustrating for both the organiser and the fans.
There is also a problem with bulk selling and the people who have been referred to as bedroom touts. Like the organisers, I am not comfortable that there are people who buy tickets as if they were real fans, but with the sole intention of reselling for a profit. I am, therefore, pleased to announce various actions that we have taken. We have been working closely with the secondary ticket marketplaces and continue to have constructive discussions with them and the event organisers.
The online ticket marketplaces have made a range of commitments, as outlined in the letters that have been placed in the Library of the House and are available from the Vote Office in the Lobby. They have committed to providing further information and transparency, to make sure that consumers have appropriate information. The commitment covers much of the information that Lords amendment 12 would require, but it will not breach EU rules, result in unintended consequences for privacy and fraud, or give event organisers the opportunity to cancel tickets put up for resale.
Secondly, the marketplaces have confirmed their commitment to consumer protection. When consumers have a problem with a ticket they have bought on an online marketplace, they should have access to redress. The marketplaces have set out the guarantees they provide to users and how they work to protect consumers. Thirdly, the marketplaces have committed to ensuring that consumers know where to go to get redress by providing the information prominently on their websites.
12 Jan 2015 : Column 662
Alongside those common commitments, they have committed to a range of different improvements specific to their individual sites. They are all welcome commitments.
In addition to the action taken by industry at a practical level, we want to ensure that the Government address the issues with an evidence-based approach. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has today launched an independent review of the effectiveness of the current law—and, indeed, what can be done to improve it. The review will survey enforcement of the current consumer law as it applies to online marketplaces as facilitators of transactions in tickets, and it will assess the challenges of enforcement of that law. We invite the review to suggest how that enforcement could be improved. That will include looking at how to tackle bulk selling, which has been raised by many Members today, and how to effectively enforce the law against traders impersonating consumers in order to evade consumer law.
I have written to trading standards to gather evidence on what more can be done to enforce consumer law as it applies to buyers and sellers of tickets. That will complement the DCMS review. To respond to the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), I have not yet received a response from trading standards, but I will, of course, keep the House informed.
Given the ongoing commitments to tackle the genuine issues, I urge the House to reject Lords amendment 12 and the amendment to it, and to welcome the package of measures that I have announced.
Mrs Hodgson: We have had a wide-ranging debate. If we were to apply the law of averages to the question of which side of the argument the coin would fall, I think it would fall on the side of the Opposition and the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) who tabled amendment (a). The debate has been strongly in favour of transparency, apart from the contributions of two hon. Gentleman in the back row—the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) —who have been the only Members to put up any argument against that, albeit unconvincingly.
I have listened to what the Minister has had to say and I have seen the lobbying from the four secondary marketing companies. They have obviously spent a fortune on lobbying and I am sad to say that I heard a lot of their arguments in the Minister’s speech. From their point of view, all the money they have spent on lobbying has worked, but the House is not convinced.
There is demonstrable market failure. When the House, the Select Committee and the then Minister looked at the issue 10 years ago, they said we would need to see such failure before requiring legislation. We have now demonstrated that that market failure exists. I know that the Minister has written, very late in the day, to trading standards. I wrote to trading standards years ago and the response I received was that there was no evidence. Transparency would provide the evidence of what is happening.
The four letters from the secondary marketing companies say, at long last, that they will abide by the regulations that the Minister’s colleague, the right hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), announced last year, but they have already had more than six months to abide by those regulations. I wrote
12 Jan 2015 : Column 663
to them to point out that the regulations are now on the statute book, but they have carried on regardless. I have no faith that they will do anything different. That is why we need to legislate. There is cross-party support for that and I hope that Members on both sides of the House will support us in the Lobby. I know that when the Bill goes back to the House of Lords our proposal will have cross-party support, ably led by Lord Moynihan, Lord Clement-Jones and Baroness Grey-Thompson, as well as our own Lord Stevenson. I will push the amendment to the vote.
The House divided:
Ayes 204, Noes 289.
Division No. 127]
[
7.26 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Barclay, Stephen
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Sir Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, rh Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Champion, Sarah
Chapman, Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Evans, Chris
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Gardiner, Barry
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hermon, Lady
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Kane, Mike
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Lammy, rh Mr David
Leslie, Chris
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonald, Andy
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGuire, rh Dame Anne
McInnes, Liz
McKenzie, Mr Iain
Meale, Sir Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Lucy
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reed, Mr Steve
Reynolds, Emma
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Roy, Mr Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Sawford, Andy
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watts, Mr Dave
Weatherley, Mike
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Ayes:
Phil Wilson
and
Bridget Phillipson
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, rh Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, rh Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barker, rh Gregory
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, rh Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, rh Paul
Burt, rh Alistair
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Douglas
Cash, Sir William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, rh Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evans, Mr Nigel
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, rh Damian
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Harvey, Sir Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, rh Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lamb, rh Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Sir Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Sir Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, rh Esther
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Murray, Sheryll
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, rh Sir Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Mike
Penrose, John
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Sir John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robertson, rh Sir Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Sir Richard
Simmonds, rh Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, rh Sir Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, rh John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Webb, rh Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, rh Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Lorely Burt
and
Gavin Barwell
Question accordingly negatived.
12 Jan 2015 : Column 664
12 Jan 2015 : Column 665
12 Jan 2015 : Column 666
Motion made, and Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 12.—(Jo Swinson.)
The House divided:
Ayes 290, Noes 203.
Division No. 128]
[
7.39 pm
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Andrew, Stuart
Arbuthnot, rh Mr James
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, rh Norman
Baker, Steve
Baldry, rh Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Barker, rh Gregory
Bebb, Guto
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Bingham, Andrew
Birtwistle, Gordon
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, rh Annette
Browne, Mr Jeremy
Bruce, Fiona
Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm
Buckland, Mr Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Mr Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burstow, rh Paul
Burt, rh Alistair
Byles, Dan
Cable, rh Vince
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Douglas
Cash, Sir William
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Clappison, Mr James
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crabb, rh Stephen
Crockart, Mike
Davey, rh Mr Edward
Davies, David T. C.
(Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Jonathan
Evans, Mr Nigel
Evennett, Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Farron, Tim
Field, Mark
Foster, rh Mr Don
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, rh Damian
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hague, rh Mr William
Halfon, Robert
Hames, Duncan
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hancock, Mr Mike
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Harvey, Sir Nick
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heath, Mr David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Gordon
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hollingbery, George
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, rh Simon
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Huppert, Dr Julian
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, rh Sajid
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kelly, Chris
Kirby, Simon
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lamb, rh Norman
Lancaster, Mark
Laws, rh Mr David
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Jessica
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Sir Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lloyd, Stephen
Lopresti, Jack
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Sir Peter
Lumley, Karen
Macleod, Mary
Main, Mrs Anne
Maude, rh Mr Francis
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Karl
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McPartland, Stephen
McVey, rh Esther
Menzies, Mark
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Maria
Mills, Nigel
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moore, rh Michael
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Mosley, Stephen
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Murray, Sheryll
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr Brooks
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Ollerenshaw, Eric
Opperman, Guy
Ottaway, rh Sir Richard
Paice, rh Sir James
Parish, Neil
Patel, Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Mike
Penrose, John
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Pickles, rh Mr Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pugh, John
Raab, Mr Dominic
Randall, rh Sir John
Reckless, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr John
Rees-Mogg, Jacob
Reevell, Simon
Reid, Mr Alan
Robertson, rh Sir Hugh
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr David
Russell, Sir Bob
Rutley, David
Sanders, Mr Adrian
Scott, Mr Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Shepherd, Sir Richard
Simmonds, rh Mark
Simpson, Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Sir Robert
Soubry, Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mr Mark
Stanley, rh Sir John
Stephenson, Andrew
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Mr Graham
Stunell, rh Sir Andrew
Sturdy, Julian
Swales, Ian
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Teather, Sarah
Thornton, Mike
Thurso, rh John
Timpson, Mr Edward
Tomlinson, Justin
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, Mr Andrew
Uppal, Paul
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Walter, Mr Robert
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Webb, rh Steve
Wharton, James
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mr Mark
Williams, Stephen
Williamson, Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wright, rh Jeremy
Wright, Simon
Yeo, Mr Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Ayes:
Gavin Barwell
and
Lorely Burt
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bain, Mr William
Barclay, Stephen
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Sir Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Dame Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Blackman-Woods, Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Brown, Mr Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Byrne, rh Mr Liam
Campbell, rh Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Caton, Martin
Champion, Sarah
Chapman, Jenny
Clark, Katy
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Crausby, Mr David
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Cunningham, Sir Tony
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint
De Piero, Gloria
Dobson, rh Frank
Docherty, Thomas
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr Brian H.
Doran, Mr Frank
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Doyle, Gemma
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Engel, Natascha
Evans, Chris
Field, rh Mr Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Gardiner, Barry
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mrs Mary
Goodman, Helen
Greatrex, Tom
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr Peter
Hamilton, Mr David
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harris, Mr Tom
Havard, Mr Dai
Healey, rh John
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hermon, Lady
Heyes, David
Hillier, Meg
Hilling, Julie
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs Siân C.
Jamieson, Cathy
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Kane, Mike
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Lammy, rh Mr David
Leslie, Chris
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn
Lucas, Ian
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr Gordon
McCabe, Steve
McCann, Mr Michael
McCarthy, Kerry
McCartney, Jason
McDonald, Andy
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGuire, rh Dame Anne
McInnes, Liz
McKenzie, Mr Iain
Meale, Sir Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morrice, Graeme
(Livingston)
Morris, Grahame M.
(Easington)
Mudie, Mr George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Paul
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Nash, Pamela
O'Donnell, Fiona
Onwurah, Chi
Owen, Albert
Pearce, Teresa
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Lucy
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raynsford, rh Mr Nick
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reed, Mr Steve
Reynolds, Emma
Riordan, Mrs Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Roy, Mr Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, rh Dame Joan
Sarwar, Anas
Sawford, Andy
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Shuker, Gavin
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Mr Andy
Smith, Angela
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Spellar, rh Mr John
Straw, rh Mr Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Walley, Joan
Watts, Mr Dave
Weatherley, Mike
Weir, Mr Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Williamson, Chris
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Wright, David
Wright, Mr Iain
Tellers for the Noes:
Bridget Phillipson
and
Phil Wilson
Question accordingly agreed to.
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12 Jan 2015 : Column 668
12 Jan 2015 : Column 669
12 Jan 2015 : Column 670
Lords amendment 12 disagreed to.
Contracts covered by this Chapter
Jo Swinson: I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): With this we may take Lords amendments 2 to 11 and 13 to 78.
Jo Swinson: I am delighted that we are bringing the Bill back to the House in such good shape. There was a good debate in the other place and a number of amendments build on and improve the Bill. We listened to concerns in both Houses about consumers being out of pocket if they have to pay to return rejected goods, and as a result we agree that it is sensible to make it clear in the Bill that the trader bears responsibility for the reasonable costs of returning goods that have been rejected by the consumer. That provides clarity and sets a sensible balance between the parties, without causing significant burden to business.
The Bill has always contained a provision that if a consumer exercises the final right to reject, the trader may reduce the refund to take account of the use that the consumer has had of the goods, unless the goods are rejected in the first six months, in which case the general rule is that no deduction may be applied. That is intended to balance the interests of consumers and traders, and for that reason the Bill provides a limited
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exception to the general six-month rule. However, we understand the concern that that exception could be interpreted too broadly, and in response we have narrowed the exception to address specifically the impact on the motor industry.
The particular nature of motor vehicles may affect the balance between traders’ and consumers’ interests because cars are high-cost items that lose value quickly. They are also complex, so it is more likely that a car will develop two faults in the first six months than, for example, a piece of furniture. The option to make a deduction for use in the first six months is therefore particularly significant for traders in motor vehicles.
The amendments include a power to increase the scope of the exception if appropriate in future. We think that is important, as it is not possible to predict the goods and technologies that may develop. We are conscious of the need to reflect the dynamic nature of digital content. Many forms of digital content are not static products and change over time with updates to software and apps. The Bill provides that the digital content must meet the quality rights—satisfactory quality, being fit for a particular purpose and as described—following an update. We listened to concerns raised in the other place that as originally drafted the requirement could prevent traders from improving digital content or offering flexible products. That outcome would not be good for consumers, so we have clarified that the requirement does not prevent traders from adding new features or enhancing existing features, as long as the original description is still met.
We have amended the provision on digital content that causes damage to a consumer’s device or other digital content. That will allow traders to exclude or restrict their liability under the Bill for damage to the consumer’s device or other digital content, to the extent that it would be fair under the unfair terms provisions in part 2 of the Bill. That provision will apply even to free digital content, specifically when it causes damage and the consumer can show that the trader failed to use reasonable care and skill to prevent the damage occurring. We have clarified the maximum fining penalty that the regulator of premium rate services can impose on non-compliant and rogue operators, and we are making clear that where appropriate and proportionate, the regulator can impose the maximum fine for each contravention of the code. That maximum is £250,000, so in the event of a company making two serious contraventions of the code, the regulator could impose a fine of up to £500,000 if that was considered appropriate and proportionate.
We are determined to tackle the minority of rogue letting agents who offer poor service, and in Committee we added provisions to ensure transparency of letting agent fees, to give consumers the information they want while supporting good letting agents. It is important that that requirement comes into effect as soon as possible to ensure that tenants have certainty over the payments that they make, and for that reason we are putting the enforcement details in the Bill. We are also applying the duty on letting agents to publicise fees in Wales as well as England. That was requested by the Welsh Government and has the added advantage of minimising any cross-border enforcement problems.
Existing legislation requires landlords and letting agents acting on their behalf to protect the tenant’s security deposit. That is the most significant money
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likely to be held by an agent, but they might hold other money on their client’s behalf, which is why the Government already encourage agents to join client money protection schemes. Public awareness of that is not as high as we would like, so we are also requiring agents to state whether they are a member of a client money protection scheme.
From 1 October last year all letting agents and property managers must belong to one of our three approved redress schemes that provide tenants with an effective way to address complaints. We will now require letting agents to publicise which redress scheme they have joined. Those changes will level the playing field for agents by raising awareness of what best practice looks like, put downward pressure on fees, and provide consumers with the information they need without introducing significant new costs to the sector.
As set out in our 2011 White Paper on higher education, we are providing all higher education students who receive public support with access to external dispute resolution. That reflects the fact that increasingly, new and different providers are offering higher education, not just the traditional university sector, yet only a handful of alternative providers—seven in total—have so far voluntarily joined the Office of the Independent Adjudicator’s complaints handling scheme. We are making it mandatory for alternative providers whose courses are designated for student support to join.
I convey my grateful thanks to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It published the outcome of its scrutiny on 11 July 2014, and I was delighted to accept its recommendations that the exercise of certain powers in the Bill be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, as reflected in the amendments. We also addressed concerns that current provisions for the appointment of the Competition Appeal Tribunal—or CAT—effectively exclude judges from the Scottish Court of Session or the Northern Ireland High Court. We have now ensured that Lord Chief Justices of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the Lord President of the Court of Session, may nominate any suitably qualified individual who is already a judge sitting in a relevant court to be deployed as a CAT chair.
We have improved provision for private actions in competition law. First, we are allowing the Competition and Markets Authority—the CMA—to approve an outline of a voluntary redress scheme, and for the business to create a full scheme afterwards. That is part of a wider Government initiative to promote alternative dispute resolution, and it allows responsible businesses who wish to make redress to those they have wronged an avenue to do so. The amendment allows the CMA to impose conditions necessary to set up a full scheme. If those conditions are not complied with when the full scheme is set up, the CMA can withdraw approval or consider a revised scheme.
We are enabling provision to be made for claimants to incur costs if they apply to have the representative to the action removed but lose the application. That is in line with the wider “loser pays” principle that exists in domestic law, and should deter vexatious applications. The Government recognise that during collective proceedings, not all damages are claimed. Therefore the Bill makes provision that the CAT may award unclaimed damages from opt-out collective action proceedings to a prescribed charity—currently the Access to Justice
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Foundation. Although the body to receive unclaimed damages may be changed, we are ensuring that it must always be a charity.
The Bill consolidates and simplifies important provisions on investigatory powers of consumer law enforcers, and the Government greatly value the vital work that enforcers such as trading standards do in protecting consumers and legitimate businesses. We now require enforcers to give two days’ written notice for routine inspections, and we have set out clear exemptions to that. We are firmly underlining that provision by putting it beyond doubt that notice need be given only for routine inspections, which is when there is no reason to doubt that the business in question is operating properly without any significant breaches of legislation. We have committed to review the practical effect of the notice requirement within two years of the commencement of the Bill. As a result, we are confident that the powers and safeguards strike the right balance between protecting civil liberties, reducing business burdens, and ensuring effective enforcement, and I invite the House to agree with the amendments.
Stella Creasy: In the short time available let me say that I think we are looking at a form of alternative dispute resolution this evening, so let me first flag up the positive in terms of the customer service feedback we would like to give to the Government on these Lords amendments: we will be supporting all the Lords amendments. In particular, there are three that are worthy of consideration, following the rule about the six in 10 Britons who believe that politicians should do more in the coming years to help them stay out of financial difficulty.
8 pm
On Lords amendment 24, regarding nuisance calls, I pay tribute to the long-standing campaigning work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton). It is perhaps apposite, as we come towards election time, for the House to make progress on tackling nuisance calls. I know that many constituents will be concerned about them. We therefore welcome the Lords amendment 24. It follows some of the rulings we were trying to make on tackling the problems caused by nuisance calls. Automated calls and texts make life a misery for many, with 71% of landline consumers saying they have received a live marketing call and 63% a recorded marketing message. The Opposition tabled amendments in his House to strengthen issues around consent to receive calls for marketing purposes. We therefore welcome the fact that the Government have accepted the Lords amendments on making caller line identification mandatory for marketing calls. Marketing calls must now show the number from which the call is coming, which will allow consumers to screen and block the calls they do not want to take. That follows what has happened in Germany and France. We look forward to working with the Government on this issue. There is more to do on nuisance calls, but we welcome the amendment and the Government’s agreement to it.
On Lords amendment 77, as a London MP, I disagree with the Minister completely when she says that it is a small minority of letting agents who are causing problems. In my community alone, stories come to me daily about
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the problems with letting agent fees and the rip-off charges that consumers face. The impact they have on my local community and on the bank balances of my constituents is heartbreaking. I am not alone in seeing those challenges. Studies from organisations such as Shelter show that some tenants are being charged as much £700 before they even set foot in a property, and that charge can often happen on an annual basis.
We welcome that the Government, under pressure from the Opposition to do something about regulating the private rented sector, introduced proposals on Report. However, they still fall short of what we need to do. In particular, we need to learn the lessons from the hon. Lady’s constituency and from Scotland on the impact of banning fees for tenants. We need to recognise that there is a simple conflict of interest: is the letting agent acting for the tenant or the landlord when it charges both of them for the price of a credit check? An agent cannot act for both parties in the same sale. We have put forward proposals to outlaw this form of conflict of interest. I am disappointed that the Government still oppose those measures and I hope we will make progress in tackling the private rented sector. Nevertheless, it is welcome that the Government have recognised that transparency of fees is a start towards the process of recognising just how much people in the private rented sector are being ripped off by agents, and that this is not a fair market as a result.
On private colleges and their access to alternative dispute resolution, Lords amendment 50 reflects perhaps the biggest Pandora’s box that the Bill has opened: the rights of consumers in the public sector. In debating the Bill, the previous Minister, the right hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott), admitted that the law would apply to all contracts covered in the public and private sector where there are agreements in which
“there is a promise to do something in return for a valuable benefit known as consideration.”––[Official Report, Consumer Rights Public Bill Committee, 6 March 2014; c. 517.]
She highlighted that that would be in terms of paying tuition fees, personal care budgets and possibly a number of other areas. We believe it would proffer a whole range of contracts within the public sector. The Minister at the time was confused about whether students would become consumers. I hope that we have now clarified that matter. Certainly, the Government’s acceptance of the amendments on extending the rights to alternative dispute resolution to those who are students of private colleges is welcome, in that it recognises that students paying tuition fees are consumers. However, it is unclear whether the Government have given any meaningful thought to what extending the consumer rights framework to the public sector will mean. We are deeply concerned as a result. We welcome the Government’s adoption of our amendments—I pay tribute to the work done by Baroness Hayter on extending access to the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for Higher Education—but I put on record that we are deeply concerned about this proposed legislation as it moves forward. We hope that the Government will think again, because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. In our lifetimes, there has not been any other consumer legislation in this way.
On ending conflicts of interest both online and offline, we hope the Minister, in the time she has left in the Department—who knows what will happen after May?—will look again at whether we can do more to protect consumers who are being ripped off.
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The Bill has singularly failed to do anything about the personal debt crisis now facing our country. It could have done so much to tackle the rip-off charges we have seen in the consumer credit industry. There are already 9 million people who are over-indebted. That is before any rise in interest rates, which may well happen this year. The Government refuse to do anything to end logbook loans or the scandal of making people in debt pay for the privilege of being assisted out of it, or the mis-selling of debt management. The Government have done little either on alternative dispute resolution. The Government’s proposals would do little to provide a proper system. I draw the attention of the Minister to the comments from the new retail ombudsman, which show the frustration within the industry on these issues. We have put forward proposals to license ombudsmen to finally give real teeth and meaning to the concept of ombudsman. I hope the Minister will look again at this issue. She was away when the issue was first raised, but I hope she will look again at how we can implement the European legislation.
I hope the Minister will also look at public service complaints. It is right that we give people in the public sector clear rights, but those rights need to be enforced. The lack of advice and information in the public sector, the growing evidence that numbers of people in the public sector, particularly vulnerable people, do not complain because of fear of reprisal, and the uniquely different relationship we have to the public sector as both producers and consumers all call for a far more rigorous process than the Bill has allowed for looking at the impact that will have. We may now see students calling to lecturers to say that they did not receive a lecture in a reasonable time frame at a reasonable standard. They will have the right to complain, but it will be those, I would wager, in the law department who will use these rights—they will not be equally distributed.
The Minister may laugh, but what if this happens with personal care budgets? Some vulnerable people may be able to complain, but others will not. There is a risk that, in introducing the Bill without looking at how we ensure that everybody and not just those with sharp elbows can use this legislation, we will increase inequality. The Opposition are keen to see consumer rights extended, but we do not want to do so at the risk of creating some who are more able than others to access their rights. We are therefore not looking for a repeat performance. We believe that when the public adjudicate—they are the ombudsmen after all—they will decide that the failure to act on these very real issues and the opportunities missed mean that the Bill is a faulty product and that nothing less than a complete replacement in May 2015 will do.
Jo Swinson:
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. She had some well-crafted lines and I disagree with her final remarks, but she raises an important point about
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information for consumers whether in the public or private sector. My view is clear: passing the Bill to enshrine those rights is not in itself sufficient. It is vital that people know how to use these rights in a practical way. That is why the Department has been working with consumer information bodies such as Citizens Advice and Which?, and retailers and other groups, to try to ensure that there will be sound, straightforward and easy to understand information that will be readily available to consumers, whether at the point of sale or where they have a problem, through a variety of different methods, and whether online or through more traditional means. Consumer confidence, which will underline the improvements in the economy, is crucial and will ensure that this landmark legislation, which the hon. Lady rightly highlights as a once-in-a-generation opportunity, will truly deliver much more confident consumers who are able to enforce their rights. That will help to ensure that the economy benefits and is much stronger.
8.8 pm
Three hours having elapsed since the commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords amendments, the debate was interrupted (Programme Order, this day).
The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83F), That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Lords amendment 1 accordingly agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83F).
Lords amendments 2 to 11 and 13 to 78 agreed to, with Commons financial privileges waived in respect of Lords amendments 24, 38, 39 and 77.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendment;
That Stephen Doughty, Matthew Hancock, Toby Perkins, Mel Stride, and Ian Swales be members of the Committee;
That Matthew Hancock be the Chair of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee;
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Mel Stride.)
Committee to withdraw immediately; reason to be reported and communicated to the Lords.
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Consumer Rights Bill (Carry-Over Extension)
8.10 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I beg to move,
That the period on the expiry of which proceedings on the Consumer Rights Bill shall lapse in pursuance of paragraph (13) of Standing Order No. 80A shall be extended by 67 days until 30 March 2015.
We have this afternoon and early evening considered the amendments made to the Bill in the other place, and the result of our deliberations now needs to be considered there. We are mindful of the fact that the Bill was introduced in this House on 23 January 2014. As set out in Standing Order No. 80A, as a carry-over Bill, it will fall if it does not receive Royal Assent within 12 months of its First Reading, and that date is now approaching.
Given the strong support for the important measures contained in the Bill, it is only right for us to safeguard against this. The Bill is the biggest overhaul of consumer rights for a generation. It sets out a simple, modern framework of consumer rights that will promote growth through confident consumers driving innovation and more competitive markets. I therefore trust that hon. Members will support me by agreeing to the motion.
8.11 pm
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I simply rise to agree that this is an important Bill, and we are looking forward to progress being made and the Government finally agreeing with us in the Lords on ticket touting. We look forward to its return to this House for us to approve it.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab) rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I call—[Hon. Members: “John Spellar”.] Oh, yes. I call John Spellar.
8.12 pm
Mr Spellar: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Those days we spent in Washington together were clearly—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr Spellar, this is not the time to tell secrets. My apologies for temporarily not calling you correctly to speak.
Mr Spellar: I understand, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is an age-related thing.
I congratulate the Minister on moving the extension right up to the end of her period in Parliament. We wish her well in her future career. As she and the Opposition spokesperson said, this is an important Bill, in which case one wonders why the Government have taken so long to bring it to fruition on the statute book. What is their problem? It is not as though we are burdened with business. Week after week, the Government are filling time in this Parliament—not just since we came back after the Christmas holiday, but certainly since we came back in September. What have the Government been
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doing and why are they taking so long to pass the Bill? This Parliament has rightly now been described as a zombie Parliament.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that since the introduction of fixed five-year Parliaments, there is no excuse for not knowing when the general election will be, meaning that the proper programming of Bills should be a piece of cake for the Government?
Mr Spellar: My hon. Friend is exactly right; it should be a piece of cake for any properly run Administration. We realise that there are substantial internal tensions in the Government. That is why several private Members’ Bills are held up in the proceedings, and why other important issues, such as one dear to his heart in his role as deputy defence spokesman for the Opposition—the failure to advance the programme on the renewal of the Trident submarine programme—are also held up. On those matters, we understand, although we do not agree, with the delay. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) has several times drawn to the attention of the House and the Prime Minister some of the internal contradictions of the coalition. We understand those problems.
What are the problems with the Bill before us? There might be differences between the Government and the Opposition, as we saw with the Government’s disgraceful support for the ticket touts against the interests of supporters and fans of sport, music and the arts, but there are no internal differences to hold up the progress of the Bill. That brings us to the underlying point: the Government’s programme is in a bit of mess. We have to consider this point, because it is important for the constitutional arrangements of the House. Although there are strong differences of opinion within the Chamber, things really fall down when we have a Government who cannot handle their own business, do not know what they are doing and—equally important, although for some this is a more trivial issue—do not understand the dynamic of Parliament, not just in this House but in the relationship between the two Houses. We are seeing many examples of that.
It might be that the Minister can give us some clues as to where the problem lies. Who is in charge of Government business? Who should be steering the Bill through Parliament, and why have they failed so singularly to do so inside a year—a very long time? Normally, when there is good will in the House—as the Minister rightly said, the Bill has broad approval and is important—Bills can progress at a reasonable pace. Have there been unreasonable obstacles from the Opposition or within the coalition? Or is it that the Government are asleep on the job?
Many Members, including Back-Bench Government Members, have raised concerns about that issue. It is clear that the Prime Minister and the crew at No. 10 are not in charge of Government business. We have seen in the newspapers and heard personally many complaints from Members about his “chillaxed” approach, and we remember the comments about the fish rotting from the head down. He makes a virtue of his “chillaxed” approach to policy and, in particular, to administration and organisation—those dull details that actually ensure that government and Parliament run properly.
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Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech. It seems to me that he is arguing for a business of the House committee, which I would of course support him in.
Mr Spellar: Most certainly not. I am arguing for an effective Government, but the hon. Gentleman makes an interesting observation, because he is really saying that the driver behind his business of the House committee is the failure of his own Government. He has to consider whether that is a failure arising from the particular circumstances and structure of this unholy coalition, or whether it is down to the deficiencies of the individuals concerned. I think it is probably both, but even within this alliance, which I know he is deeply unhappy with and would like to see ended—it was Government Members who voted for the five-year fixed-term parliaments, which has ossified this Parliament—if there were people there who had some grip on the situation, matters would be improved. Either way, it is clear that the Prime Minister and his fairly undistinguished staff at No. 10 have not got a grip on the situation. Within the House, of course, under all Governments, including much better run Governments, the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip have played key roles, so let us deal with them in turn, starting with the Leader of the House.
I say without any sense of irony that the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) was a very good Foreign Secretary. I did not always agree with all his policy, but he was an effective Foreign Secretary who advanced a number of important and noble causes. I pay tribute to him for the redirection and reorientation of the Foreign Office towards using our embassies more to ensure that they sold British goods and services and represented British interests. I am pleased to say, too—I pay tribute again—that he made sure that embassy staff drove British-made cars.
The Leader of the House is also an entertaining speaker. On a day when he is not bored, he is an extremely effective speaker and very fine writer, too. I suspect he will use those talents in the future, and I think it will be a loss both to this House and to the Conservative party when he stands down voluntarily—unlike the Minister, who will be standing down involuntarily—at the next general election.
However, notwithstanding all those qualities, I do not believe that organisation and boring detail are top of the right hon. Gentleman’s agenda, so I do not think that the Leader of the House—in this as in a number of other facets of this zombie Parliament—has got a grip on the pace of the programme of the Government’s legislation.
The Chief Whip is in a slightly different position, along with the deputy Chief Whip, although I see a lack of organisation in what they do. We have seen many examples of them rushing around during votes when they clearly do not have a clue what is going on. They have not been speaking truth unto power, either, when it comes to what can or cannot be done within this House, so they bear some degree of responsibility for what has happened.
We are having to spend some time this evening examining these issues not just because of one Bill. Rather, it is because of a systemic problem in the Government that is, frankly, not helping Parliament, not helping proper
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debate, not helping the progress of legislation and not helping the bringing forward of measures to deal with the problems facing this country. Thus, I am pleased to say, we now have a useful opportunity to examine all that, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham will be able to deal with it in more detail in his contribution.
8.23 pm
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): It is a privilege to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar). I agree with him that this is an important Bill, although, as my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) stated, much should have been in it that is not in it, so it has been a missed opportunity. I give credit to my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) and others who have argued for greater transparency over ticket touts. I cannot for the life of me think why the Government think there are votes to be gained from ticket touts rather than from the mass of the public who buy tickets. My hon. Friend helpfully highlighted cases where people had clearly been ripped off or misled under the present situation.
The motion before us relates to paragraph (13) of Standing Order 80A, which states:
“Proceedings on a bill ordered to be carried over to the next Session of Parliament shall lapse on the expiry of the period of twelve months from the date of its first reading in this House and the bill shall be laid aside unless the House shall order, in pursuance of a motion under paragraph (14), that proceedings on the bill be extended for a specified period.”
This Bill had its First Reading on 21 January 2004, as the Minister mentioned—[Interruption.] I meant 2014.
Very little legislation has gone through Parliament over the past year. Another habit of this Government is trying to push things through the House very quickly, with limited days allotted for the scrutiny of legislation, which means that the other place has more time to examine a Bill at leisure. I have a fundamental objection to that, because this House is the supreme body for framing and scrutinising legislation and for tabling amendments. The rush to get everything through this House as quickly as possible has left us with what has been described in many newspapers as a “zombie Session”. The programme for next week and subsequent weeks shows that very few votes on legislation are going to be provided for. We are waiting on their lordships’ House to return legislation that has speedily been channelled through this House.
I do not believe it right that an amendment such as the one debated today to deal with ticket touts should have been agreed in the other place. It should have been agreed here. The Government should have taken more time to consider it in detail and to ensure that hon. Members understood the implications of what they had done. We have seen legislation—badly drafted legislation—rushed through this House time and again during this Parliament; it has then gone to the other place and been filleted like a fish.
Mr Spellar:
My hon. Friend draws attention to a further aspect that causes difficulty. In the initial enthusiasm of the coalition, a number of ill thought through constitutional changes were brought through—changing the date of the Queen’s Speech and the five-year Parliament,
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for example. However, no consideration was given to the natural rhythm of legislation in this Parliament, either on a sessional or a whole-Parliament basis. In both cases, the coalition has run into considerable difficulties in respect of running through legislation in this place and of the inter-relationship between this place and the other place.
Mr Jones: I agree with my right hon. Friend. After passing the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 for five-year Parliaments, it should have been easier for the Government to programme their business motions through this House. At the time of the last general election, the Prime Minister talked freely about reducing the cost of politics, but since then he has absolutely stuffed the other place with new peers and peeresses. He is obviously trying to ensure that the Conservatives maintain their in-built advantage in the other place.
It is clear that the whipping system in the other place is not working very well, which is laughable. Either Members who have just been ennobled are not turning up or other Members are rebellious, because they are clearly not voting along Government lines on every issue. The amendment on ticket-touting, for example, was tabled by a Conservative peer.
A five-year Parliament ought to ensure that programmes are completed, but motions such as this mean that Bills are stuck in the other place and we must wait for them to come back. That applies to some important Bills, such as the Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill, which would create an armed forces ombudsman and must be keenly awaited by members of our armed forces. It has been argued that there has not been enough time during the current legislative Session, but we should bear in mind the number of Opposition days and Thursdays devoted to business tabled by the Backbench Business Committee. I mean no disrespect to any of those debates, but space could have been made for debates on important Bills.
Moreover, during the current Parliament an unprecedented number of Committee stages have been dealt with on the Floor of the House rather than in Committee Rooms upstairs. That has used up days that could have been devoted to more lengthy consideration of Bills.
Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is making one of his interesting speeches, but surely he is not suggesting that Committee stages of constitutional measures that have been dealt with on the Floor of the House should have been dealt with upstairs.
Mr Jones: No, I am not. I cannot think of an example at the moment, but a number of Committee stages that would previously have been dealt with upstairs have been dealt with on the Floor of the House. That leads us to ask whether the Government are simply trying to fill up time on the Floor of the House—and I think that that is exactly what they have been doing.
As I said at the beginning of my speech, this is an important Bill, and it will clearly be given a great deal more scrutiny and attention in the other place than it will be given here. Given the current logjam in the other place, we shall have a very thin February and March
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as we wait for Bills to return to us. There is also the broader issue of the reputation of the House of Commons. I do not think that headlines about, for instance, zombie Parliaments or MPs coming to the House on only two days a week do our reputation any good. We cannot expect the public to understand the minutiae of parliamentary timetabling, especially given the incompetent way in which the Government are handling it.
Mr Spellar: My hon. Friend may recall press reports about a memorandum sent by the Government Chief Whip to his Members of Parliament, indicating that they were unlikely to be needed on Thursdays and, possibly, Mondays, and therefore, effectively, they had to be here on only two days a week. In fact, this level of inactivity was being “programmed in” by the Chief Whip, partly because of failure to run the business, but also for party political purposes.
Mr Jones: That is an interesting point. I do remember seeing press reports about the letter sent to Conservative Back Benchers. If I thought that the Chief Whip and the Leader of the House were well organised enough, I would say that there was obviously a plot, but I do not think that there was. I think that they have found themselves with time on their hands, and Conservative Back Benchers have been told not to come here on Mondays or Thursdays.
Mr Bone: May I state categorically that I have never received such a letter from the Chief Whip?
Mr Spellar: He does not include the hon. Gentleman.
Mr Bone: He would prefer me to stay away much more often.
Mr Jones: That does not surprise me, given the hon. Gentleman’s record. I should not have thought that he was one of those whom the Chief Whip would hold close to his bosom in terms of communication. I imagine that if there was room for only one more person in a lifeboat, the Chief Whip would not get into it if the hon. Gentleman was there.
The point is that we have ended up with a slack programme, and the progress of Bills, including this Bill, depends on how sedately or otherwise the other place deals with them. Certain important Bills, such as this and the Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill, could be delayed until the wash-up, and could then fall. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, provisions in this Bill that are actually welcome could end up being dealt with in the usual meat-grinder sessions at the end when it is decided what can and cannot be agreed. I do not think that that would be satisfactory from the point of view of those who have worked hard to ensure that the Bill is passed, or when it comes to ensuring that it is scrutinised in a proper and just fashion. I note that there are other carry-over motions on the Order Paper, and I suspect there will be others, because it is within the Government’s remit to introduce them. As I said, under paragraph (13) of the Standing Order that has been invoked, paragraph (14) comes into effect, which states:
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“A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown to extend for a specified period proceedings on a Bill which would otherwise lapse under paragraph (13), and any such motion
(a) may contain provisions amending or supplementing a programme order in respect of the Bill;
(b) may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption”.
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) that this is not about the Government having a procedural or a timetabling Committee of the House for Bills. A competent Government should be able to put forward a legislative programme for a Session that ensures not only that they get their Bills through, but that it is done in a timely fashion and the Bills get proper scrutiny in this place. Clearly, now that they have discovered paragraph (13), it is going to be used far more to extend consideration of Bills.
The time period goes up to 30 March and it will be interesting to see what timetable there will be and whether or not, and when, we will get this Bill back from the other place. On the transparency issue around ticket touting, for example, Lord Moynihan was clear on the radio this morning that he would listen to what this House said, but there is a good chance that the Bill will be voted on again in the other place and come back to us.
The issue is whether the Conservative Whips Office in the House of Lords can get all these new peers whom the Prime Minister has added out of their sleepy slumber and ensure that they attend and vote in support of the Government. Their record so far is not very good. There is even a question as to whether they can be relied on to vote the right way, because there are Cross Benchers and Conservative peers who support the cause of greater transparency for the consumer which my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) has championed for many years. If the Bill comes back, we will get into a ping-pong session, and given that we are now getting a logjam of Bills, what real in-depth discussion will we have of any amendments that are brought back?
That brings us back to my central point about the role of this House as opposed to that of the other place. I could be unfair on the Government and think that all along, with the coalition in place, their plan and the Prime Minister’s plan was to rush everything through this House as quickly as possible, so that it gets to the other place where, because he has appointed so many new Conservative peers, he now has an in-built majority to steamroller through whatever he wants.
We have seen some examples of that. The coalition love-days of the rose garden at No. 10 in 2010 have now clearly gone sour. The coalition was described then as a shotgun marriage, and it has clearly not lasted the course. I know of occasions when internal tensions in the coalition have led to legislation being dropped—the latest example being the issues around surveillance on the internet, where there appears to be a clear divide between the position of the Liberal Democrats and that of the Conservative part of the coalition. It is important that we get legislation through in time, and we cannot second-guess the internal politics of the coalition. Let us remember the rights of this House. There has been a lot of talk about broken politics, and the—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo):
Order. The hon. Gentleman is now drifting a long way from the subject before us. We are not discussing the
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internal politics of the coalition; we are concentrating on the proposal for the carry-over extension of the Bill, and the hon. Gentleman needs to return to that.
Mr Jones: As always, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall heed your advice. The important point, however, is that a very strange dynamic has been created during this Parliament. Bills have been announced and put forward, and the first was the Bill relating to the Boundary Commission, which subsequently fell apart. That also happened to a House of Lords Bill. I use those as an example—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr Jones, it is fascinating to hear your explanation of why you should continue to make the points that I have asked you not to make, but I am now directing you to return to the subject before us. Members might be entertained by your contribution, but it is my job to keep you in order. You are currently out of order, so please return to the subject.
Mr Jones: I am quite aware of that, and I apologise for digressing into areas that are beyond the scope of the Bill.
The central point is that this Government have not been able to programme their Bills properly during this Parliament. Depending on where this Bill gets to in the stack of Bills in the other place, it could end up in the wash-up. If Lord Moynihan presses these matters to a vote again, as he said on the radio this morning that he would, we shall have ping-pong and this Bill and others could end up either being filleted or in a ping-pong session. That could result in important legislation not being put forward. The use of this Standing Order shows that the Government have failed in one of their basic tasks—that of timetabling their legislation in this House. It is an indictment of the incompetent and arrogant way in which they have acted.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Does not this show precisely the reverse? Does not it show the ambition and forthrightness of the Government in having such a busy programme, even at the end of five years, that they need an extra 67 days? That dynamism is something of which the Government should be proud.
Mr Jones: I am glad I have woken the hon. Gentleman from his slumbers. In fact, the opposite is the case. The Government have had a year in which to get the Bill through, yet they have had to argue for an extension to finish the process for this and other legislation. They cannot hide behind the argument that there has not been enough time to consider the Bill; there has been plenty of time. This Government have an inbuilt practice of trying to get Bills through the House as quickly as possible, which is why they have ended up with a logjam in the other place. That is not good for this House, because the Bills do not receive proper scrutiny. This House should be the place in which amendments are tabled and discussed.
During this Parliament, we have seen some very badly drafted Bills. They have not only needed amendment in the other place but come back to this House, at which point the Government themselves have had to table reams and reams of amendments. That is about bad drafting of legislation. It says exactly the opposite to
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what the hon. Gentleman suggests, in that if the Government cannot get it through in a year, that shows either incompetence or, as I said, a strategy whereby they were trying to push everything to the other place so that when they have their in-built majority there they can bang it through as quickly as possible.
That does this House, or how the public see it, no favours. They do not understand the effectiveness of the other place and how it changes Bills. This House should be where amendments are introduced and things are changed. Without that, all we are doing is rubber-stamping the Government’s legislation—that should not be the position. Members should propose amendments and argue against badly drafted legislation and against things they feel strongly about, as on occasion have the hon. Members for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg).
I think that we will be seeing more of these carry-over motions, which is an indictment of how this Government have been managing legislation. The Procedure Committee needs to look at this practice in order to ensure in future that this House is the body that not only drafts legislation, but ensures that it receives proper scrutiny.
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation (Committees)
That the Motions in the name of Sir Tony Baldry relating to the Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction (Amendment) Measure, the Ecclesiastical Property Measure and the Church of England (Pensions) (Amendment) Measure shall be treated as if they related to instruments subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of which notice has been given that the instruments be approved.—(Mr Wallace.)
Delegated Legislation
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Criminal Law
That the draft Youth Justice Board for England and Wales (Amendment of Functions) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 27 November, be approved.—(Mr Wallace.)
Business of the House
That at the sitting on Tuesday 13 January–
(1) notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an Act or on European Union documents), debate on the Motion in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to the Charter for Budget Responsibility may continue for up to three hours, after which the Speaker shall put the Question, if it has not already been disposed of; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply; and
(2) Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Secretary Patrick McLoughlin relating to the National Policy Statement for National Networks.—(Mr Wallace.)
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Corby Fire Services
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Wallace.)
8.47 pm
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I am very pleased to have this opportunity today to lead a special debate on the future of fire services in Corby and east Northamptonshire. My constituents are extremely concerned about plans drawn up by the current administration at Northamptonshire county council to scrap one of Corby’s two fire engines and cut the firefighter team at the station, which serves Corby and much of east Northamptonshire. The county council is planning reductions in the Northamptonshire fire and rescue service operating budget of £1.6 million over three years—that is equivalent to a cut of 7.5% in the current operating budget. That is additional to cuts in excess of £1 million already implemented under this Government, which resulted in a loss of 31 posts. The strategy for delivering these cuts is simple: cut at Corby; cut an engine; and cut the crew
The council has been running a consultation, which closes today, in which it is not considering cuts to services in any other part of the county—the impact is all on Corby. A one-option consultation is not a consultation at all; it is a public relations exercise. The council’s plans will take out a standard fire appliance, and the associated crew, from Corby and replace this with a new Cobra intervention vehicle crewed by only two firefighters. I have discussed this with Martyn Emberson, head of the fire and rescue service in the county, who has confirmed that these changes would not add any new capability to Corby—Cobra-based technology can already be deployed from the Corby station, as I have seen for myself; would significantly deplete manning levels at the station; and would result in a degradation of the response service locally. The key concern about these changes is that if firefighters arrive on the scene of a major fire, they may face a delay of up to 20 minutes before they can enter the building.
The strength of public opinion against the plans is huge. Thousands of people have signed an online petition organised by local firefighters. Over the past few weeks, more than 200 people have responded to my appeal for input into tonight’s speech. I want the Minister to hear from my constituents in their own words. I hope that she will listen to them and agree to meet me, local firefighters and the county council to see whether we can find an alternative to these current plans.
I appreciate that money is tight for local councils, but the county council has not explored other options. Firefighters tell me that there are other ways of making savings, but the county council is not interested in exploring them.
I want to start by saying that my constituents really appreciate the excellent work of the firefighters who cover Corby and east Northamptonshire. Graham Scotney says:
“Our firefighters do an amazing job from the front line, fire fighting and accident rescue through to fire prevention and education.”
Terry Lester says firefighters
“attend many emergency situations such as road traffic accidents, plane crashes, train crashes, building or scaffolding collapse, all aspects of flooding, chemical spills, releasing people trapped in machinery and rescuing animals.”
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“We must protect them as they protect us.”
Of the county council’s proposals, Anne Brown tells me that they are “bloomin’ terrible”. “Disgusting,” say Bryan Robson, Janet Keeney, Liz McCormick, Dave Holt and Robert Nelson. “Uncannily stupid,” says Ian Murrie. Paul Cross calls the plans “insane”. Kenny Keys, Albin Wallace and Lisa Chong say the plans are a “disgrace”. Tim Wadley feels that the proposed cuts are “putting lives at risk”, a view that is shared by Robert Anderson.
David Laws says the proposal is “ludicrous”. As a Corby resident for more than 60 years, he told me that he objects
“strongly to this ridiculous idea”.
Julie Kelly says fire cover is not a “nice to have” but a resource that is there to save lives. “This is just stupidity”, says Michael Gray. Jean Addison and John Ashman both say that the council’s proposals are “short-sighted”. Christine Larkman says it is
“repulsive to put money before lives.”
“Less sometimes really does mean less and that is exactly what’s being offered.”
Ian Foreman is “very troubled” by the plans. Tim Hawkes says that the plans are “incompetent and inept”.
“Ridiculous”, say Tom Cardwell and George Jenkins. Damian Roche agreed, saying:
“It is a ridiculous cut to make that endangers the lives of the residents of Corby and surrounding villages.”
Chris Godbold questions whether the idea has been thought through. I agree with Kim Denham when she says that there has been a “lack of sound judgment”. Shayna Denson said:
“This is crazy. The service should be expanded, not cut.”
“Idiotic”, says Valerie Walker. Keith Jenkinson said:
“It shows a lack of civic responsibility.”
Paul Grey, Niell McAllister and Samantha Timms say the idea is “ludicrous”. Ronald Aston calls it, “scandalous”. Ann Huntington says:
“It's iniquitous, terrible and a travesty.”
It makes no sense, says Robert Burridge. “Terrible”, says Jayne Gardiner. “A crazy idea”, agrees Sally Barlow.
Many commented that the cuts come at a time when Corby is the fastest-growing town in the UK with the highest birth rate in England. Helen Moore mentioned the new development at Priors Hall. Paul Young highlighted the growth of the Oakley Vale area.
Many of my constituents believe that rather than looking to cut Corby’s fire service, we should be talking about how we meet the needs of an expanding population.
Those points are re-enforced by John Walker, Elizabeth Mullen, Madeline Whiteman, Joseph Burlington, Geraldine Oliff, Tony Killem, Kelly Farrar, Irene Hamilton, Jane Parsell, Kirsty Lane, Gail Corby, Anita Few, Ian Duncan and others who contacted me. The others who expressed a view included: Trevor Haynes, James Campbell, Anita Hambly, Simon Neves, Melissa Roberts, Margaret Browning, Linda Bingham, Ann Kieran, Stan Gemmell, Barry Tempest, Sue Clews, David Smith and Wendy Finn. All of them took the time to share their views. Andrew Tyre says that, if anything, we need possibly more cover, not less.
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Corby’s firefighters had a busy time over Christmas, with a large fire in the town’s shopping centre, along with a number of other serious incidents. Fortunately there were no fatalities, but my constituents are worried that cuts to the service will put at risk the safety of the public and the firefighters. Bernadette O'Keefe says:
“People's lives will be put at risk.”
“No amount of money saved would be worth risking people’s lives for.”
“the prospect of the time taken to reach a fire being extended is unacceptable.”
“They waffle about it not endangering lives and the service being maintained... I don’t understand how this can be the case”,
and he is right to be sceptical. Debbie Graham thinks that this will put “people’s lives at risk”.
Mel Munton, the manager of one of Hanover’s sheltered schemes in Corby, said:
“It concerns me very much that because of this decision if ever a major fire emergency happened here at Swan Gardens many of my residents could be put in danger, serious danger, many being wheelchair bound or with poor mobility could lose their lives. The twenty minute wait for another fire tender to arrive could be disastrous”.
Michael May says the plans put “costs before essential services”. Paul Balmer says:
“If we saved money but lost ONE life then we would have saved nothing”.
John Holton says that the reason for maintaining cover is simple—“it saves lives”.
Lives will be particularly at risk when there is a large incident because, as Bob Scott points out, there will be fewer firefighters, or when two or more incidents require a fire service response at the same time. Susan Bird asks what will happen when two fires occur at once, and Jeff May asks:
“What happens if the fire service is called to two incidents in Corby at the same time?”
“fire can take hold and kill in minutes so every second counts”,
and that that “cannot be allowed”.
Danny McAvoy highlights that the plans will leave Corby with only two firefighters to deal with some incidents. Mark Browning raises concerns about the ability of firefighters to respond should more than one fire break out in the town. Sonia Barker says:
“I think it is ridiculous cutting the fire services to just one engine. If there was a very major fire and only one to go out to the call you would have to get more from around the county and that will be losing time and make things even harder”.
This is happening at a time when many of the retained fire engines in nearby towns are frequently not running or not available. Corby’s two engines provide resilience for the whole of north Northamptonshire. Taking that away will put lives and firefighters at risk not only in my constituency, but in neighbouring areas.
The Corby fire service covers many villages surrounding the town. My constituents in rural areas are rightly concerned about the plans. Jacqueline Kay highlights the fact that residents in her village, Gretton, “have not been asked” about how the plans will affect them. Lloyd Caddock asks
“how long will it take to get to villages for serious fires”?
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John Melhuish points out that lots of rural areas depend on the Corby fire service, as do areas right across from the border of Lincolnshire and to the border of Cambridgeshire.
“if they can get rid of a second engine in Corby they can then reduce the fire services in others parts of the county just as easy”.
The truth is that they are not even considering what options there are in the rest of the county; this one-option consultation is all focused on Corby.
Darren Whitaker believes the cuts
“will clearly affect the level of protection that Corby and its surrounding villages require and deserve”.
“Bearing in mind that Corby station provides cover for a vast amount of rural communities in the North East of the county it is not only the people of Corby whose lives are being jeopardised. It’s a disgrace to hoodwink the general public by saying they are replacing an appliance with new high tech fire-fighting equipment”.
Alison Tootle says that this is a
“real problem for Corby and the surrounding villages”,
Many people have commented to me on the impact the plans will have on Corby’s business community. Marian Anderson says:
“A cut in fire service personnel will undermine the attractiveness of Corby as a destination for business and put lives at risk”.
Dave Fox, a resident of east Northamptonshire, highlights the fact that Corby is a highly “commercially productive” sector of the county. Indeed, Corby has been identified as the manufacturing capital of the country, which has to be weighed as a factor in assessing fire risk.
Janice Harper points out that if
“crews are unable to take swift action there is a cost to businesses and in consequence to the community. If businesses are unable to continue it means loss of jobs and damages the local economy”.
William Renwick, who told me that he was responsible for finalising a report about risk in fire services in Northamptonshire in 1985, says that removing
“one pump and replacing it with a questionable vehicle will place the industry and commerce of Corby at risk”.
Robert Thorogood, a business owner in the area, says that
“Corby and district represent a large part of our business infrastructure”,
and that the size of the population and the number of businesses demand its having both pumps.
“As the number of industrial units in the area increases the chance of fires involving chemicals, plastics etc. increases and these need to be tackled as fast as possible so reducing the number of engines available is a very backwards step”.
There have been fires in many of our factories in the area. Les Vargerson makes the point:
“It is not just Fires. Corby is surrounded by Arterial Roads where the Fire Brigade is always in attendance due to the number of…accidents. They cannot be in two places at any time with just one unit.”
Tony Banks believes that the proposals show that the Government want to return Britain to the ’30s, with the decimation of public services. Kevin Morrisey asks
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whether savings could be made elsewhere by the council, which is a good question. Eleanor McEwan sees a different motive. She says that it is
“typical Tory councillors targeting a Labour…town”.
Paul Dickson believes the proposals are
“indicative of the County Council’s treatment of Corby in general. How can they even think this is remotely workable? They are now playing with the lives of Corby residents”.
Ann-Marie Leonard says that this is
“another demonstration of the blind stupidity of the rapidly failing”
Northampton county council. Julie Halliday says:
“I think for a council to even consider this just as a money saving measure shows a lack of care and imagination which the Corby people will fight all the way”.
“Reducing a life or death service to a growing population is the politics of the incompetent”.
“this is another Tory action showing that they care more about profit than the ordinary people”.
“As usual with Northants County Council they are targeting Corby residents and have a complete disregard for life and safety”.
Rob Maguire points out that Northamptonshire county council’s own website presents figures for last year
“indicating that Corby Fire Station has the second highest area coverage and incident attended”
whereas Richard Sharman reinforces the point that
“Corby has had two fire crews for the last 50 years”.
Lucille Giola works in a local pharmacy and has spoken to lots of her customers about the plans. She says that she has
“not heard one person agree with the proposals”.
Roger Kinsey asked a good question, which was whether
“a correct procedural risk assessment survey”
“and past statistics…taken into account”.
I very much doubt it and I have seen no evidence of such.
Kelly Tallan shared her experience with me:
“Having had family and friends involved in house fires in Corby, sadly with fatal consequences, I cannot believe this is even being discussed. Any delays to enter a burning building can and will have dangerous results, not only for the people inside but also the firefighters. This town is growing rapidly and we can’t have our emergency services reduced, please please rethink.”
“The figures being used for the argument to reduce the number of fire engines are already old and with the year on year population increase this data is completely unreliable and there should at the very least be a stay of execution whilst new data is gathered and this time include a factoring for the future growth of Corby.”
I appreciate that the Minister will be unable to respond to all the points from my constituents, but I hope she has taken on board what they think. I am sure that she was in contact with the county council before today, as that is the usual way of preparing for such debates, and I look forward to hearing from her. I hope that she has challenged the council on why it is considering only one option, and I very much hope she has not bought into the spin it is peddling about the proposals.
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Before I finish, I want to share three final comments from Corby firefighters. They have insights and experience that we should listen to, but sadly they do not feel valued by the Government, who have failed to find a resolution to their ongoing pensions dispute—a resolution that has been found in other parts of the UK, but not by this Government. The Minister has a chance to show the firefighters that on this issue she is listening and respects their view.
“As a serving firefighter in the town for some twenty plus years, I can tell you that we have rescued numerous people by the skin of their teeth over the years. Downgrading a full appliance that carries four personnel to a smaller appliance with two personnel will ultimately lead to the new appliance turning up to an incident one day and the two person crew not being able to rapidly deploy to the incident and immediately rescue people.”
“In the skin of the teeth cases the outcome would have been very different if we just had this new proposed appliance there at the time”
rather than a proper fire engine.
“The proposal to reduce the number of fire fighters (2nd Pump) at Corby Fire Station is shocking. I have had to listen to the County councillors responsible for these cuts trying to explain that the Cobra fire fighting system and a robot can some how take the place of operational fighters, this rhetoric is completely misleading and dangerous to both the public and fire fighters alike. We have had Cobra fire fighting equipment on Corby appliances for 5 years! Expert Firefighters save people’s lives from fire and road traffic collisions”,
not robots. Rob Martin says that the plan
“to replace a properly equipped fire appliance with the proposed van is like replacing a properly equipped ambulance with a first aid box”.
In summary, I believe that there are very important reasons for maintaining the current level of capability at the station. The first is the risk profile of Corby and the surrounding area. Corby still has a range of businesses within its local economy that present particular risks arising from the nature of the processes and materials used. Historically, the industry and commerce in Corby are the reason the risk was rated higher traditionally and Corby always had two engines.
The second reason is the recognition that Corby is growing. This is planned to continue, with the population reaching 100,000 by the end of the next decade. Even accepting the progress made in preventing domestic fires, a town of this size needs to be serviced properly by the fire and rescue service because extra demands will be placed on the service by a growing population. Thirdly, the station supports a very large geographical area beyond the town of Corby, stretching across all the villages up to the county’s borders with Leicestershire, Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire. There are well-documented difficulties with, for example, the fire station at Oundle, which is rarely able to get its retained crew to be available to be on the run with the fire engine. Maintaining the Corby station’s capability is critical to providing north-eastern Northamptonshire with the assurance that a responsive and adequately crewed service is available to meet fire and rescue needs in this part of my constituency.
I recognise that councils, including Northamptonshire county council, have faced very significant cuts. When this Government were elected, they told us that their
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cuts would not have an impact on front-line services. We all know that is not true. We have seen the cuts in social care, Sure Start and road maintenance. People have put up with it partly because they were told it was needed to eliminate the deficit, but now they know the truth—the deficit is still there and the debt has gone up because the Government caused our economy to grind to a standstill for four years. The Government have dug a bigger hole and now they are planning cuts that are deeper and ever more dangerous. Taking away Corby’s second engine would become a symbol of this and it would have tragic consequences.
I heard that the Tory parliamentary candidate in Corby is trying to dissociate himself from the fire cuts. He has called on Corby borough council to pick up the tab using the new homes bonus, a cheeky move that conveniently overlooks the fact that Northamptonshire county council receives far more in new homes bonus. More important than that, it has the statutory responsibility to provide a fire service. We do not want a sticking plaster. This is about the security of revenue funding year on year in future years for the second fire engine that we need in Corby to be provided by the county council, with its statutory responsibility.
If the Tories ever want to get anywhere in Corby, they should show local people some respect and stop trying to treat them like fools. People in Corby know where these cuts are coming from, they know exactly who is responsible, and if Tory councillors over at county hall force these fire cuts through, the damaging and potentially fatal consequences will be on their hands. I hope the Minister will do the right thing and use her influence to tell the county council to think again, because there has to be a better way.
9.7 pm
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) on securing this important debate, to which the excellent Minister with responsibility for fire, resilience and emergencies will respond.
As the hon. Gentleman said, east Northamptonshire relies a lot on the fire service in Corby and we share that fire service. There is a consultation going on so the House should not think that the proposed cuts will definitely happen. Listening to the hon. Gentleman’s speech, the House might have got the impression that Corby would go down from two pumps to one pump if the consultation suggestion were implemented. That is not the case. The consultation suggests that the second pump at Corby is replaced by a Cobra two-man intervention vehicle, so there would still be two pumps there.
I declare an interest. Ever since I was elected in 2005 I have shared a close interest in the fire service in north Northamptonshire, one of the reasons being that when I was fighting to be elected for the first time, the Labour-controlled county council was proposing to close a fire station in my constituency. We fought hard against that and after the general election, when I was elected, we managed to save the fire station. Never under the Conservative-controlled county council has a fire station in Northamptonshire been closed.
I pay my tribute to the men and women in our fire service in Northamptonshire. I also pay tribute to the people who run the fire service in Northamptonshire.
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They are leading the world with new technology. The Cobra intervention vehicle is new technology. What it does in certain circumstances is a quicker method of saving lives. It will also prevent flashbacks that kill firefighters. There is a significant role for the intervention vehicle. To the Government’s credit, that has been funded entirely by central Government; there has been no cost to the taxpayer in Northamptonshire. I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman that thousands of new homes are being built in Corby and across east Northamptonshire, and the number of businesses is expanding rapidly. In fact, only today I was with the Transport Secretary at Chowns Mill in my constituency, where we looked at the new roundabout improvements and road improvements that stretch between my constituency and Corby. They are being put in place because of the expansion in the number of houses and businesses. We have also had the Government’s announcement of the Rushden Lakes development—a huge retail and leisure park that will of course result in more fire risk.
The hon. Gentleman was right to read out what his constituents are saying. Since I was first elected, I have run a so-called listening campaign. That is being copied by Tom Pursglove, the excellent Conservative councillor in Corby whom the hon. Gentleman mentioned. The idea of a listening campaign is to go out and listen to what people are saying, as the hon. Gentleman has done, reflect on it, and then campaign on it. People in Corby and east Northamptonshire clearly want more fire cover for our area; I think he said that one of the people he mentioned said so.
That is why earlier this year Tom Pursglove and I launched our More Fire Cover campaign. Everybody in Corby has had a card from Tom about that and I have distributed leaflets in my constituency. We are arguing for more fire cover, not less. I have met the chief fire officer and the firefighters of green watch in my constituency. I have seen the Cobra intervention vehicle in operation and heard the firefighters praise it, but I do not see why it should be a substitute for one of the pumps at Corby. It should be an additional vehicle that can cover Corby and east Northamptonshire. As the hon. Gentleman said, there was recently a very large fire locally, and of course the two pumps from Corby got there quickly, but would it not have been better if we had had three pumps?
The More Fire Cover campaign that Tom and I have launched is getting widespread support. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the local firemen’s petition at Corby fire station. Tom has been to meet the firefighters there and signed the petition. In political terms, there is no difference between the hon. Gentleman and me in that we want things to improve, but he is wrong because just two pumps are not enough—we need three. The question is how we pay for that. The capital cost of the intervention vehicle has already been paid by the Government, so there is no cost to local taxpayers for that—there are only the running costs.
We need this extra vehicle because of all the new homes and businesses that have been built and created in east Northamptonshire and Corby, so the logic is that the funding should be connected with that expansion. That is exactly what the Government provide through the new homes bonus. This year, Corby borough council
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will get £2.6 million to spend on infrastructure measures that support the local community. I cannot think of anything more important than fire cover, and only a fraction of that £2.6 million would be spent in providing, in effect, the cost of an additional two firemen.
I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman pooh-poohed that idea. I think it was because Corby borough council has massively overspent, by £13 million, on a project involving offices and a library complex. In the past 18 months, it has also spent, bizarrely, a third of a million pounds on temporary staff. We hear about the campaign for no zero-hours contracts, but it is all a bit topsy-turvy at the council. If it put its house in order, part of the £2.6 million could be spent on supporting the two extra firefighters we would need to operate the Cobra intervention vehicle as an additional pump. It would be based at Corby—I am quite happy with that—but serve the whole of east Northamptonshire.
After this debate, I would like the hon. Gentleman to join me and Tom Pursglove in supporting a bipartisan approach to more fire cover in our area.
Andy Sawford: The hon. Gentleman proposes that the new homes bonus be used to provide resilience across the area. His claim to participate in this debate is that Corby’s fire station serves some of his own constituents and provides resilience in the north of the county. He will certainly accept that it serves my constituents in Oundle, Irthlingborough and Thrapston. Is he recommending to the leader of East Northamptonshire district council that it should make a proportionate contribution, and has he made a similar recommendation to Kettering and Wellingborough councils? What contribution does he expect Northamptonshire county council to make, because it would, of course, be entirely wrong for Corby to fund his proposal to meet the needs of his constituents?
Mr Bone: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Perhaps he is moving towards my and Tom’s listening campaign. The reason we need this extra resource is the expansion in the number of houses and businesses, mainly in Corby. I think the hon. Gentleman would accept that, without that expansion, we would not be so worried about getting more fire cover.
However, because the issue is being driven by expansion in the borough of Corby, it is right that it should be the borough of Corby that contributes. I say that because the new homes bonus is linked to the number of houses being built. If all those houses were being built in east Northamptonshire, I would argue that east Northamptonshire should contribute, but they are not being built there; as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, they are being built in Corby.
Andy Sawford: The trouble with the hon. Gentleman’s contribution is that he is purporting to speak about his own area when in actual fact he would much rather talk about Corby, which his constituents find perplexing. He would be welcome to stand for Corby in the future—we would send him packing in the same way as we did the last candidate with whom he trooped around my constituency. We will do the same to the next one. If the hon. Gentleman knew anything about my area, he would know that a significant amount of the expansion is in east Northamptonshire district, not Corby.
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Mr Bone: We are just going to have to disagree on that point.
Andy Sawford: It is a factual point.
Mr Bone: All I will say—I do not think the hon. Gentleman will query this—is that a £2.6 million new homes bonus is being given to Corby this year. The great thing about the new homes bonus is that it will increase every year. I think that Northamptonshire county council realises that a new fire station will be needed somewhere in east Northamptonshire in the future, but it is illogical to reduce the fire cover for Corby and east Northamptonshire at this moment in time.
Other ways of saving money are being considered, and this is where I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. For example, the police are moving into Rushden fire station, which the Conservatives fought so hard to keep and Labour wanted to close. It will be a shared facility, which clearly will save money both for the fire service and for the police. It is a little unfair, therefore, to suggest that the fire and rescue service is not looking at other options.
Andy Sawford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Bone: I am always delighted to give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Andy Sawford: I would be stunned if the hon. Gentleman could find in the county council’s medium-term financial plan—it needs to make a saving of £1.6 million over three years, with a 7.5% reduction each year—a saving in his area that is anything other than the cut to the number of Corby’s fire engines. I cannot find such a saving.
Mr Bone: I just gave the specific example of Rushden fire station housing the police. We need to consider doing much more of that sort of thing and look at the whole estate. Coming back to tonight’s topic, the puzzling thing is why the hon. Gentleman, who is usually quite happy to support the expansion of services, does not support the proposal to use just a little of Corby borough council’s new homes bonus money for this purpose.
Andy Sawford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Bone: I will in a moment, but it might help the hon. Gentleman if I finish this point. The reason he does not support the proposal, of course, is that if we have a Labour Government after the next general election, they will abolish the new homes bonus, so Corby will immediately be £2.6 million worse off.
Andy Sawford: The new homes bonus is simply a partial replacement for the grant to Corby borough council and other local authorities that has been cut. It is only right that we once again link the resources that local authorities have with need by returning the funds back into grant. That is our proposal. Corby will not lose out from that because it has substantial need.
The hon. Gentleman has inferred that I am opposed to the expansion of Corby fire station. He presents all sorts of Aunt Sallies and tries to distract people in my
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constituency and treat them like fools. They can see that what is really on the table is the proposal to cut one of the two engines. I am fighting to stop that. He is trying to get my constituents to look away, to distract them and to pretend that that is not happening, but before we know it, that cut will have been implemented. I have at no time opposed the expansion of the service. I would be happy to see it expanded, but right now I am fighting the battle in hand with the Tory county council that he supports, which wants to cut my fire engine.
Mr Bone: It can hardly be suggested that I support the proposal from the county council. I am doing exactly the opposite. Neither can it be suggested that Tom Pursglove is somehow supporting the Tory line, when he has signed the petition for the firefighters and is running a campaign for more fire cover in Corby. I just do not see the logic in the hon. Gentleman’s argument.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): Order. We started with an Adjournment debate about the Corby fire service, which was allocated to the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford). We are moving very wide of the mark. We are referring to people who are not Members of this House and to all sorts of propositions, whereas the Adjournment debate should be addressed to the Minister so that she can give the answer. Mr Sawford and Mr Bone, perhaps we could move back to the central proposition and allow the Minister to answer. You may, by all means, intervene on the Minister for clarity, but I do not think that we are making much progress.
Mr Bone: May I apologise unreservedly, Madam Deputy Speaker? I should not have taken the bait from the intervention of the hon. Member for Corby. Of course, he brought up Tom Pursglove in his opening remarks, so I thought I ought to set the record straight.
Perhaps I may end my speech, before we listen to the excellent fire Minister, on a point of consensus. I would love the hon. Gentleman to stand up and support my campaign for more fire cover.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr Bone, that really is enough. The convention of the House is that this is an Adjournment debate that Mr Sawford is addressing to the Minister. You are perfectly entitled to take part, Mr Bone, but this is not an inquisition of Mr Sawford. I would therefore like you to allow the Minister to respond to the important points that have been made. I think that you had concluded.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Okay, but can we not have this ping-pong across the Chamber and instead return to the conventions of an Adjournment debate?
Mr Bone: I am very grateful that we have a lot more time than we normally have for Adjournment debates because of the collapse of the other business.
Finally, may I say to the Minister that I appreciate all the efforts the Department is making to find solutions to problems, including what she did with the firefighters’ pension scheme? I thought that that was Parliament at its best. Perhaps we can work towards a unified
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approach to solve what is a really important problem in my constituency and the surrounding areas. On that note—I hope it is one of harmony—I will conclude.
9.24 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): I congratulate the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) on securing this important debate, not least because it affords me the opportunity to congratulate Northamptonshire fire and rescue authority on its tremendous success in keeping its local community safe. Since the start of this Parliament, there has been a 34% reduction in all fire incidents in Northamptonshire, and no fire fatalities at all were reported last year. That is good news for people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, and everyone involved in those achievements deserves praise.
However, we cannot afford to be complacent. Fire and rescue authorities must continue to put prevention and protection first in all that they do. We have made a clear commitment to ensuring the ongoing effectiveness of front-line fire and rescue services, despite the need to tackle the deficit inherited from the previous Administration.
It is clear that Northamptonshire fire and rescue service shares that commitment. Its recently published community protection plan reviews the strong progress that it has made towards delivering its strategic targets and objectives, as set out in its 2013 to 2017 integrated risk management plan. It has set out clearly how it has successfully delivered on those original plans, which were to collaborate with other blue light responders and develop the potential for an integrated emergency service across the county, in order to provide better local services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) pointed out, it is a world leader in that work: to keep the public safe through partnerships with other agencies; to continue to work to reduce the cost of false alarms, which has fallen by more than 50% since 2008; and to ensure the ongoing safety of its firefighters through the provision of enhanced training facilities and methods, and the adoption of new capabilities, technology and equipment.
Although there have been reductions in funding over recent years, fire and rescue authorities have been given some important protection across the spending review period. Funding reductions have been back-loaded to give fire authorities more time to make sensible and considered savings without their having an impact on the quality of services offered to communities. As Northamptonshire is a county fire authority, its budget allocation is a matter for Northamptonshire county council. Overall, the county’s spending power was reduced by only 1.6% in this financial year, and the provisional settlement for the next financial year will see its spending power increase. In addition, the county has received £488,000 of funding for the forthcoming financial year for specialist equipment to improve resilience for flooding and other emergencies.
We are supporting fire and rescue authorities to transform the delivery of services by promoting greater efficiency, either independently or in collaboration with other emergency service partners. As I announced in October, 37 fire and rescue authorities have been awarded
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a proportion of the £75 million fire transformation fund for next year, and Northamptonshire is one of those authorities.
The county council has been proactive in planning its spending over the current round, setting out its proposals in a new community protection plan. That document has been subject to full consultation with the local community.
Andy Sawford: The Minister is talking about additional funds. Does she understand why my constituents and I will be perplexed when she suggests that the Government have given Northamptonshire county council and the fire service additional funds, since the chief fire officer and the county council’s cabinet member for finance have come to me to say that they are cutting the engine because they do not have any money and have to make cuts? To me, those two things do not add up. Will the Minister explain?
Penny Mordaunt: I would be very happy to clarify things for the hon. Gentleman, because some of the things that he said in his speech do not add up. I am happy to address the points that his constituents have made, but I also want to set out the facts, because it is incredibly important that whatever decisions people take—I am not taking them—the public are aware of the facts. We do not want to scaremonger and make people concerned about things that will not come to pass. All Members realise how important fire and rescue services are to our communities, so we need to ensure that we deal with the facts of the case.
The county council’s consultation closed today, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman has put in a submission and made his views known. Part of Northamptonshire’s proposed strategy is to move towards a new firefighting system called Cobra.
Andy Sawford: Cobra is incredibly important, but before the Minister turns to that will she clarify whether she is saying that Northamptonshire county council will have more or fewer resources for fire services as a result of the funds and changes she has outlined?
Penny Mordaunt: For the forthcoming financial year the authority’s spending power will increase, and I have mentioned the fund of almost half a million pounds that has been provided for resilience and flooding. The only action I can take, and the only part within my remit as Minister—quite rightly, these are devolved issues—is the fire transformation funding that has funded the vehicles I am about to describe. I am not minded to withdraw that funding. It is close to £2.3 million, and I would rather Corby have that money. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to argue to the contrary—I am sure he will not.
Andy Sawford: Will the Minister give way?
Penny Mordaunt: I will make some progress and then I will be happy to take an intervention.
Cobra is a new technology that utilises high-pressure water and can be used in conjunction with an abrasive compound to cut through materials releasing high-pressure water droplets into a fire compartment—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen that in action, but I understand that Corby already has two of those
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appliances. Northamptonshire fire authority is a proactive user of that technology, which it believes will enable it to develop and deliver a new strategic approach to firefighting. The authority already uses those vehicles. It currently has two, and it wants to increase those to seven. The vehicles have been used in rural areas, covering places where retained duty staff availability is insufficient to allow early intervention at incidents, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and they will move around as necessary.
We fully support a forward-looking strategic approach, and have awarded Northamptonshire £2.3 million, of which £1.5 million is for the purchase of five new Cobra-enabled vehicles. That award was the result of a rigorous, fair and consistent evaluation process, and the bid was assessed against a range of criteria set out in published guidance to meet the fund’s transformation objectives. It was in competition with other fire authorities and the authority was awarded that money because we had confidence in the bid and the difference it would make to the hon. Gentleman’s community.
Andy Sawford: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Penny Mordaunt: I will make some progress. The authority is clear that the new Cobra vehicles will enhance—not compromise, as was suggested—the flexibility of response within Corby and the north of the county. It will maintain the current two-appliance capability, and although it will facilitate a reduction in whole-time staff, those reductions will be met only through natural wastage rather than any redundancies. I can conclude only that the hon. Gentleman does not support the benefits that Cobra will bring and would like me to withdraw the fire transformation fund funding, but I can see no reason to do so.
Andy Sawford: Will the Minister give way?
Penny Mordaunt: I will make a little more progress.
Andy Sawford: That is quite a big claim.
Penny Mordaunt: I will make some progress. Operational matters such as the introduction of the deployment of fire appliances and crews are best assessed and planned at local level. It is not for the Government to interfere with the judgments of fire and rescue authorities, or to micro-manage the services provided from central Government. We expect and trust chief fire officers and elected Members to listen to their communities and make the right operational decisions for them. That local voice is critical, which is why I support fire and rescue authorities and oppose Labour’s plans to abolish them and move everything to the centre.
Whether or not the hon. Gentleman thinks that that is the right approach, it is clear that the proposal is not to reduce cover but is about seeking a quicker response in rural areas where there are problems such as those he mentioned. It should be made clear to his constituents that this issue does not warrant scaremongering.
Andy Sawford:
It is very simple. May I just explain to the Minister the maths of this? There are currently two Cobra facilities at Corby. They sit on two proper pumps. Four firefighters man those pumps. We are talking about going down to one proper pump with four firefighters and a van with this equipment on the back of it. That is
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not—the chief fire officer readily acknowledges this—an enhancement of what is available at Corby. It may be that in some other areas of the county there will be some additional service from the seven vehicles—in other areas. In Corby, however, in my area there is a clear reduction in the service. To suggest otherwise—well, the public will not believe it for a moment and they do not believe the county council.
Penny Mordaunt: The point I am making is that it is not as the hon. Gentleman set out in his speech. There are operational reasons why this has been put forward as a proposal. However, I readily admit that local people may disagree with that. There is a consultation which closed today and clearly Corby is an expanding town. This is not just about what the fire service has to deal with today; this is about planning for, and making provision for, the future.
In those circumstances I can see why Corby might want more from its local fire services. I am very aware of the More Fire Cover campaign, which, although it is content with using new technology and the Cobra vehicles and welcomes that new technology, wishes to retain the second traditional appliance for Corby. The campaign, led by Councillor Pursglove, has put forward a way that that could be funded without the need to increase council tax. I give credit to all residents in Corby and Northamptonshire who have made their views known.
Andy Sawford: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I seek your advice? This is an Adjournment debate. The Minister is now talking to proposals I am not familiar with. They were not part of my speech and are not part of the county council’s proposals. They are not really the matter in hand. I just wonder whether it is in order for the Minister to continue in that way.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): The Minister is responsible for what she says at the Dispatch Box. The normal procedure is to answer the hon. Member, and the points raised by other hon. Members who have participated in the debate, and I am sure the Minister will bear that in mind.
Penny Mordaunt: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Local leaders will make better decisions with the benefit of the ideas and input from the residents of Corby and the wider area. The idea of using the new homes bonus to fund the cost of a third appliance may not have been considered before, but it is encouraging to see sensible, pragmatic ideas being proposed. There may be other options, but the two we have been discussing today are an improvement on the status quo.