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Mr Deputy Speaker: We are getting into areas that are not a matter for the Chair. This is agreed business of the Government. That answers that.

Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a member of a Select Committee who has been involved in a serious leak and a possible breach of privilege in this House then to raise that, as happened today at Prime Minister’s questions in a question from the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), thus exacerbating the situation the Committee has found itself in? I would be grateful for your advice.

Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Other members of the Health Committee are also affected. The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) has openly leaked the private considerations of the Committee. What action can be taken immediately?

Mr Deputy Speaker: May I just say that we are raising a matter where a Member is being discussed? I presume that they are aware that this matter was going to be raised as a point of order.

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Like my hon. Friends, I think that we, as members of the Health Committee, need the advice of your good self as to how we can address the distorted report of events at the private sitting of the Committee without falling foul of the very convention that prevents this. Conservative members of the Health Committee have previously been referred to the Liaison Committee by a vote in the Committee, and here we have it again. How do we defend ourselves?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Does anyone else want to speak on this matter?

Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do think it is an absolute outrage that the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) did not give us notice that she was raising the matter. She is subject to a referral. Other Select Committees have chosen not to publish reports.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I am sure that you are aware that Mr Speaker has sent a letter to the Chair of the Select Committee. I can also inform you that it is not a matter for the Chair; it is a matter for the Committee. In the new Parliament, there will also be a new Committee that can look into it. Unfortunately, as I say, it is not a matter for the Chair.

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Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

7.16 pm

The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Brokenshire): I beg to move,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 23 March, be approved.

The threat level in the UK, which is set by the independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, remains at “severe”. This means that a terrorist attack in our country is highly likely and could occur without warning. We can never entirely eliminate the threat from terrorism, but we are determined to do all we can to minimise the threat to the UK and to our interests abroad. It is also important that we demonstrate our support for other members of the international community in their efforts to tackle terrorism wherever it occurs. Proscription is an important part of the Government’s strategy to disrupt terrorist activities.

The two groups we propose to add to the list of terrorist organisations, amending schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000, are Jamaat ul-Ahrar and the Haqqani network. This is the 18th proscription order under the Act. Under section 3, the Home Secretary has the power to proscribe an organisation if she believes it is currently concerned in terrorism. The effect of proscription is that a listed organisation is outlawed and is unable to operate in the UK. It is a criminal offence for a person to belong to, support or arrange a meeting in support of a proscribed organisation, or to wear clothing or carry articles in public that arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation.

Having carefully considered all the evidence, the Home Secretary believes that JUA and the Haqqani network are both currently concerned in terrorism. Hon. Members will understand that I am unable to comment on specific intelligence, but I can provide a summary of each group’s activities in turn.

Jamaat ul-Ahrar is a militant Islamist group that split away from Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan in August 2014. JUA aims to establish an Islamic caliphate in Pakistan and aspires to extend global jihad into the Indian subcontinent. The group has claimed responsibility for a number of recent attacks. In September 2014, JUA’s spokesman released a statement criticising the British Government for arresting suspected Al Muhajiroun associates and made a threat, stating that

“your future security depends upon how nicely you treat the Muslims in Britain”.

Additionally, the group has claimed responsibility for the fatal attacks on Christian sites in Lahore earlier this month.

The Haqqani network is an Islamist nationalist group seeking to establish sharia law and to control territory in Afghanistan. It is ideologically aligned with the Taliban. It has links with a number of terrorist groups in the region, including proscribed central Asian group Islamic Jihad Union, and long-established links with al-Qaeda.

The Haqqani network continues to play an active and influential role in the Afghan insurgency in the east of the country, and is seeking to expand its influence into other areas of Afghanistan. Given the Taliban practice

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of claiming attacks on behalf of the insurgency as a whole, it can be difficult to identify the Haqqani network’s specific responsibility for attacks, but the group is believed to have been responsible for the attack against the British embassy vehicle in November 2014 that killed six people, including a UK national and an Afghan member of UK embassy staff, and that injured more than 30 people. It is likely that the Haqqani network will continue to view Kabul as a key target location due to the concentration of UK and western interests in the capital.

In conclusion, it is absolutely right that we add JUA and the Haqqani network to the list of proscribed organisations in schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act, subject to the agreement of the House and the other place. The order will come into force on Friday 27 March.

7.21 pm

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I thank the Minister for his statement. There is a long tradition of cross-party co-operation on national security. The Opposition will support the Government motion. We are satisfied that the groups included meet the test of terrorism under section 3 of the 2000 Act.

This is the last time we will discuss a proscription order during this Parliament. I believe it is the eighth time I have responded for the Opposition on a proscription order, and the sixth time in the past two years. The increasing rate of proscription orders reflects the increasing terror threat in recent years and the emergence of terror groups across the world.

During this Parliament, we have proscribed groups such as Boko Haram from Nigeria, and Imarat Kavkaz from the Caucasus. Less than two years ago, we were proscribing the Islamic State in the Levant, which is now the world’s largest, best-funded and most powerful terrorist organisation ever. The two groups we are discussing are, in some ways, a break with the trend of the past five years. They are established and well-publicised groups relating to long-standing terror groups including al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

The Opposition, as always, have not had access to the same information about the groups as the Minister. However, given that the two groups are already well established and high profile, and are linked to a series of shocking and violent terrorist acts, we are happy to support the Government motion.

As the Minister laid out in his statement, JUA is an Islamic extremist group that is seeking to establish a so-called Islamic caliphate in Pakistan, and to commit a global jihad across the Indian subcontinent and beyond. As he explained, the group is linked to several high-profile attacks from last year, and has spoken out to support UK-based hate preacher Anjem Choudary.

The Haqqani network appears to be an even larger group, hailing from Afghanistan and aiming to establish sharia law and take control of territory. As the Minister said, the group is aligned with both the Taliban and al-Qaeda, as well as with other known terror groups such as Islamic Jihad Union. Taken together, the groups provide a substantial force with a reach across central Asia. The Opposition are particularly concerned about the apparent involvement of the Haqqani network in attacks on the British embassy, and so absolutely support its proscription.

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I agree with the Minister that proscription is a vital tool against terrorism, and that it enables us to tackle and disrupt terror groups co-operating around the world, but as we come to the end of a Parliament during which there has been an exceptional number of proscription orders, we need to consider whether the proscription powers we currently use are having the results we require. The effect of a proscription order is to make it illegal to join, support or even wear a uniform associated with a terrorist group, but it seems that proscription orders are not having the effect of reducing a group’s presence on social media. I am sure the Minister is acutely aware of the findings of the Intelligence and Security Committee that social media sites were a “safe haven” for terrorist groups.

The last proscription order we passed in the House related to a group that had Arabic and English official Twitter accounts, and an official YouTube channel. They seem to be unaffected by the proscription order. Various Twitter accounts associate themselves with the Haqqani network and an associated group that has posted numerous YouTube videos.

Does the Minister agree that we need to reconsider the situation whereby legislation says it is illegal to wear a uniform, but there is no problem hosting extremist videos or distributing hate messages to millions of people? Why was there nothing in Monday’s counter-terrorism strategy announcement to deal with social media?

I want to press the Minister on the issue of prosecutions of members, supporters and facilitators of proscribed organisations. The ISC report on Lee Rigby’s murder, which was published last year, highlighted the low number of prosecutions and the difficulties the police face in obtaining the necessary evidence. Have the Government had a chance to respond to that particular aspect of the report?

7.25 pm

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I do not want to detain the House for longer than is necessary. I welcome the Minister’s commitment to the changes. The attack on the church in Lahore was carried out by people who move from organisation to organisation. Some of those involved have also been involved in other attacks, but they go under a different name each time. Is it possible for us to take a different approach? Rather than having to come back here every time a new organisation claims responsibility for something that involves people who have been involved in other attacks, is there any way that we could circumvent this process?

On social media, last night I attended a talk on women and terrorism that underlined very clearly the threat of social media and how it is used to influence people. Is there anything more we can do to address the issue of social media?

7.26 pm

James Brokenshire: On social media, I underline the work of the counter-terrorism internet referral unit, which since February 2010 has secured the removal of more than 80,000 pieces of unlawful terrorist-related content that encourages or glorifies acts of terrorism. In the context of today’s debate, CTIRU has identified

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and secured the removal of nine Twitter accounts and one Facebook account relating to Jamaat-ul-Ahrar. The Haqqani network has no formal social media presence at present, but the CTIRU continues to monitor the situation.

The industry must ensure that the internet does not become a safe haven for terrorists and extremists. Communications service providers have a responsibility to prevent their networks from being used to recruit vulnerable people and plot attacks. That is why the Home Secretary attended the recent countering violent extremism summit in the United States—it was attended by representatives from more than 70 countries and large communications service providers—to emphasise the importance of the work we are doing and the fact that more needs to be done. That is precisely what this Government are committed to doing.

On enforcement, between 2001 and the end of March 2014, 33 people were charged with proscription offences as a primary offence in Great Britain and 16 have been convicted. Obviously, the ability exists to make arrests, and arrests are being made in relation to alleged proscription offences. That may lead to other charges relating to terrorism, and it is important that that is understood.

I welcome the House’s support for the proscription order under discussion. It is important that we are vigilant. The threat we face from terrorism is real and pervasive and it will continue. We have a generational struggle against ISIL and the ideology that underpins it. That is why this Government are committed to our continued security.

In my last speech of this Parliament, I know this House will want to join me in commending and sending a big thank you to the police, the security services and our intelligence agencies for their tireless work in keeping us safe and ensuring that that continues into the future.

Question put and agreed to.

Business without Debate

European Union Documents

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, 24 March and Standing Order No. 119(11)),

Investment Plan for Europe

That this House takes note of European Union Documents No.16115/14, a Commission Communication: An investment plan for Europe, No. 5112/15 and Addendum, a draft Regulation on the European Fund for Strategic Investments and amending Regulations (EU) No. 1291/2013 and (EU) No. 1316/2013, and No. 5317/15, Draft Amending Budget No. 1 to the General Budget 2015 accompanying the draft Regulation on the European Fund for Strategic Investments and amending Regulations (EU) No.1291/2013 and (EU) No. 1316/2013; agrees with the Government that at a time of ongoing economic fragility in Europe and tight constraints on domestic public spending, a focus on jobs and growth to facilitate the economic recovery of Europe should be welcomed; notes that the Draft Amending Budget is budget neutral and is funded from reallocations from within the ceiling for the 2014–20 Multiannual Financial Framework, which was secured by the Prime Minister in 2013 and which delivers an unprecedented real-terms reduction compared with the 2007–13 period; notes that the proposed structure respects the integrity of the European Investment Bank and does not duplicate or pre-empt the existing governance structures of the institution; and supports the Government's objective of ensuring that the proposed mechanism contributes to growth and investment in the UK.—(Mr Wallace.)

Question agreed to.

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Delegated Legislation

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 5 to 10 together.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, 24 March and Standing Order No. 118(6)),


That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of the Advisory Committees on Pesticides) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 15 December 2014, be approved.

Social Services

That the draft Care Act 2014 and Children and Families Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.

Statistics Board

That the draft Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 (Disclosure of Revenue Information) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 5 February, be approved.


That the draft Community Radio (Amendment) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 26 February, be approved.

Local Government

That the draft Local Authorities (Prohibition of Charging Residents to Deposit Household Waste) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 25 February, be approved.

That the draft Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Powers of Entry: Safeguards) (England) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(Mr Wallace.)

Question agreed to.


Radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital, Stevenage

7.31 pm

Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I would like to present a petition from my constituents in Hitchin and Harpenden, who are concerned about the tiring and lengthy journey to London that many cancer patients requiring radiotherapy have to make, sometimes daily. They call for a satellite radiotherapy centre to be established at the Lister hospital. The petition is similar to one presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) and has 1,602 signatures.

The petition states:

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage NHS England to provide a radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital in Stevenage in order to make the journey for radiotherapy treatment much easier for patients who live in the Hitchin and Harpenden constituency.

Following is the full text of the petition:

[The Petition of residents of the constituency of Hitchin and Harpenden,

Declares that patients who are residents of Hitchin, Harpenden, Redbourn, Sandridge, Wheathampstead and the surrounding villages have to travel to Mount Vernon Hospital in Hillingdon to receive radiotherapy treatment and that this journey is long and exacting and often has to be made on consecutive days.

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The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage NHS England to provide a radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital in Stevenage in order to make the journey for radiotherapy treatment much easier for patients who live in the Hitchin and Harpenden constituency.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.]


Remediation of contaminated land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo

Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): My petition concerns the remediation of contaminated land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of the UK,

Declares that land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo is contaminated as a result of pollution from lead smelting on the site over 200 years ago...further that residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo are calling for the Government to step in in the same way that they did in Blanefield, Scotland where part of the cost of removing lead and arsenic contamination was met by the Government; and further that a petition from residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo has been signed by 1555 individuals.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to provide funding for the remediation of contaminated land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo.

Following is the full text of the petition:

[The Petition of residents of the UK,

Declares that land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo is contaminated as a result of pollution from lead smelting on the site over 200 years ago; further that the local council has informed residents that they must pay a proportion of the remediation which, in some cases, could cost up to £10,000; further that residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo are calling for the Government to step in in the same way that they did in Blanefield, Scotland where part of the cost of removing lead and arsenic contamination was met by the Government; and further that a petition from residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo has been signed by 1555 individuals.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to provide funding for the remediation of contaminated land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.]


Heavy Goods Vehicles on the A519 (Staffordshire)

Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): The petition is from many hundreds of residents in my constituency.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of the constituency of Stone in Staffordshire,

Declares that residents of Eccleshall and Woodseaves object to the use of the A519 (running through Eccleshall and Woodseaves) by HGVs; further that the Petitioners object to the application for a new access road to serve the Raleigh Hall Industrial Estate, which would increase HGV use of the A519; further that the new access point would be more dangerous because large HGVs would be turning to join a 60mph road; further that the number of these vehicles using the A519 route has become completely unacceptable, with hundreds passing through a day; further that the increased HGV traffic poses a serious danger to pedestrians; further that the risk of a crash is high, and could cause considerable damage to property and loss of life; further that the subsequent volume of HGVs using Stafford Street and Castle Street in

25 Mar 2015 : Column 1543

Eccleshall means they are damaging the road surface; further that this situation has led to problems in Eccleshall because HGVs have difficulty passing each other on the Stafford Road outside the Claremont Garage, putting pedestrians at risk; further that the pavements in Woodseaves are very narrow, and HGVs are mounting them to pass one another; further that the A519 is not a primary route and there is no intention of it becoming a primary route and that Satellite Navigation companies should be advised of this matter; further that planning permission has been provided for haulage companies to set up in the Eccleshall area with a focus on the A519; further that Woodseaves residents in particular have been forced to abandon their front gardens because of noise and pollution, they are unable to sleep at night because of the noise, and their homes are being damaged by the weight of HGV traffic on the road; and further that approximately 3 HGVs pass through Woodseaves per minute.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Department of Transport to impose a speed restriction and weight limit on HGVs using the A519, to object to the proposed application for a new access road off the A519 that will serve the Raleigh Hall Industrial Estate and to advise Satellite Navigation companies that the A519 is not a primary route.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.


Parking outside Fairmore Medical Practice in Nelson

Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The petition states:

The Petition of residents of Nelson,

Declares that the Petitioners believe patients of Fairmore Medical Practice of 211-213 Leeds Road, Nelson are having difficulty finding suitable parking places near the practice, and that the Petitioners believe there is a vacant site on Leeds Road, Nelson near the practice that could be used as a car park facility.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to support the Fairmore Medical Practice Patient Participation Group in securing additional parking spaces and to encourage NHS England to reconsider their funding request to support extending car parking facilities at Leeds Road.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.


Urgent care centre at Chippenham Hospital

Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I wish to present a petition on behalf of my constituents calling on the Government to fund an urgent care centre at Chippenham community hospital. The proposals come from Chippenham’s doctors. The town’s three GP practices came together to draw up the plans, which would bring urgent services together in one place—accessible 24 hours a day, seven days a week—relieving pressure on accident and emergency departments at nearby hospitals in Bath and Swindon. The petition is signed by several hundred local residents on paper and online.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of the Chippenham constituency,

Declares that an urgent care centre at Chippenham Hospital is needed to improve access to urgent health services and to relieve pressure on nearby Accident and Emergency departments.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to fund an Urgent care centre at Chippenham Hospital as proposed by Chippenham’s GPs.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.


25 Mar 2015 : Column 1544

Housing development on Midmar Paddock, Edinburgh

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I wish to present a petition on behalf of my constituents to prevent housing development on Midmar Paddock in Edinburgh.

The petitioners declare that Midmar Paddock in Edinburgh is used by hundreds of people every week for open-air exercise with children, families and dogs, as a green lung in the city; further that it is green-belt land, a special landscape area, designated open space and a local nature reserve, where planning developments have been resisted for decades; further that it is under imminent threat following its sale with development potential for housing development, and a planning application is expected shortly; and further that a local petition on this matter was signed by 330 individuals in the local area, supported by the wonderful Friends of the Hermitage of Braid, and the Morningside community council, especially Mr Goff Cantley.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Scotland to encourage the Scottish Government and the City of Edinburgh council to intervene to stop housing development on Midmar Paddock.

Following is the full text of the petition:

[The Petition of residents of the UK,

Declares that Midmar Paddock in Edinburgh is used by hundreds of people every week for open air exercise with children and dogs; further that it is green belt land, a special landscape area, designated open space and a local nature conservation site; further that it is under imminent threat of housing development and a planning application is expected shortly; and further that a local Petition on this matter was signed by 330 individuals.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Scotland to encourage the Scottish Government to intervene to stop housing development on Midmar Paddock.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.]


Changes to Budgets for GPs

Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I should like to present a petition on behalf of my constituents about the Government’s proposed changes to GP budgets in Wakefield. It is supported by many of our local GPs, local councillors such as Councillor Rory Bickerton, and Ryan Case, who is a local resident.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of the Wakefield constituency,

Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about the proposed £3.8 million cuts from budgets for GPs; further that these cuts could result in small practices closing, 38 full time doctors or 95 full time nurses being lost and patients waiting longer to be seen by a GP; and further that a local petition on this matter has been signed by 850 individuals.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to reconsider the proposal to make cuts to budgets for GPs in the Wakefield area.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.


25 Mar 2015 : Column 1545

Development on Greenbelt Land in Edinburgh

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I wish to present a petition on development on green-belt land in Edinburgh.

The petition states:

The Petition of residents of the UK,

Declares that the Local Development Plan 2015–2020 has proposed a number of sites on the south side of Edinburgh for development; further that local residents want the sites at Broomhills, Old Station Road, Burdiehouse, The Drum, Ellen’s Glen and Moredun to be exempt from the new plan; further that local residents, community groups and the local community councils—

especially the Gilmerton Inch community council and the Liberton and District community council—

are concerned by the likely impact on local amenities if these plans are approved; further that the Petitioners call for the plan to be scrapped and a proper process to be put in place to determine the future development of the city which works in conjunction with local communities and not against them; and further that a local petition on this matter was signed by 130 individuals.

It was also signed by the Liberton and District community council and the Gilmerton Inch community council.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Secretary of State for Scotland to encourage the Scottish Government to remove the sites on the south side of Edinburgh (Broomhills, Old Station Road, Burdiehouse, The Drum, Ellen’s Glen and Moredun) from the Local Development Plan’s proposals for development and to put a process in place to determine future development of Edinburgh which works in conjunction with local communities.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.


Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I had intended to present a petition to the House tomorrow in relation to my constituents wanting three ships—HMS Cressy, HMS Hogue and HMS Aboukir—to be protected under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. However, I have been advised that as tomorrow is the last sitting day, there will be no Adjournment debate, and on that basis no Member can present a petition to the House. Can you advise me? If I bag the petition today will it still be regarded as having been formally presented to the House?

Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The hon. Gentleman asks a good question, and he has done well in drawing to the attention of the House, Members on the Treasury Bench and undoubtedly the relevant Minister the point that he quite rightly wishes to make on behalf of his constituents. I can assure him that if he produces the petition today, it may go in the bag, and it will be treated as a presented petition. The House has heard what he has had to say.

25 Mar 2015 : Column 1546

Social Care and Military Compensation

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Foster.)

7.44 pm

Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): As has now been confirmed several times, this is the last occasion to raise such issues in this Session, and I wish to speak about the unfair treatment of some veterans owing to the disparity in the way that different armed forces compensation schemes are treated when social care costs are calculated. I pay tribute to Poppyscotland and the Royal British Legion, which highlighted that issue with their Insult to Injury campaign. In the past, I have been pleased to work closely with the Royal British Legion, both nationally and locally in Blackpool, and together we delivered a petition with 3,000 signatures calling for stronger punishment for those who vandalise war memorials. I was also pleased to support the Blackpool armed forces covenant and veterans charter in 2011. I wish to touch on that veterans charter and covenant, praying in aid the arguments I will present tonight.

As chair of the all-party group on veterans, which deals with a number of issues, including welfare, I was fortunate to initiate a meeting in Parliament with the Forces in Mind Trust. Its latest report is about support for veterans’ families, and we will hear tonight about veterans who are losing the means to support their families when compensation payments are removed. Fundraising year-on-year by the Royal British Legion and other ex-service organisations, including Poppyscotland, provides extra support for veterans. Locally and nationally, our veterans should not be left by the state in financial circumstances that are unfair. The state must do its bit, particularly when there are unequal Government regulations.

Tonight I will focus on the disparity between the way that the two different compensation schemes operate. Those injured before April 2005 received compensation for particular injuries through the war pension scheme, which provides regular payments based on the severity of injury. Those injured from April 2005 onwards receive support for any disablement through the armed forces compensation scheme—AFCS. That comes in two parts: a lump sum and, in a similar fashion to the war pension, a regular payment for the most severely disabled veterans and ex-servicemen. Those two schemes seek to compensate for the pain and challenge of particular injuries that some veterans receive when serving bravely in our armed forces, but when it comes to how they are processed through the social care system, they are treated very differently.

As of 2012, any veteran supported by the newer AFCS scheme has all that income disregarded while they are means-tested for social care. Although their other forms of income are rightly considered so that they make the same contribution as any civilian to their social care, they will still have left over the income they receive to compensate for the injuries they received in the military. Those on the older war pension scheme, which could cover awards from the second world war up to 2005, receive far less support. Only £10 of their war pension is automatically disregarded, and the rest can be clawed back by local authorities into paying for their standard social care. The full value of the war

25 Mar 2015 : Column 1547

pension—which of course reflects the level of disablement suffered by that veteran—is on average £80 a week and can be as much as several hundred pounds a week for the most severely injured.

Does the Minister agree that it does not show enormous respect to veterans on the war pension scheme, who have fought in conflicts from the second world war to Korea, the Falklands and in some cases as recently as Afghanistan, if we suggest that the pain of those disabling injuries is worth only £10 a week? What compounds that regrettable diminishment of the veterans’ sacrifice is the apparent injustice and inconsistency in the way the two schemes are treated in social care and the way different arms of Government look at the problem.

Almost all local authorities use their discretion fully to exempt the income from both compensation schemes when council tax or housing benefit is calculated, and central Government have recognised that both types of compensation should be left untouched when the new universal credit is calculated for recipients who have served in the forces. Yet protecting that income for council tax and housing benefit will be in vain if the great majority of it is then lost to pay for social care. As I have said, Government guidelines only disregard £10 of the war pension, and in present circumstances local authorities have not been able to go much further, with only 12% of councils using discretionary funding fully to exempt those on the older scheme. That is completely inconsistent with the way that civilian personal injury compensation is treated in social care means-testing. When saved in a trust fund, that income is fully disregarded by local authorities as they calculate care costs. What is left appears to be a social care system that, however worthy its objectives, fails to meet two criteria of the armed forces covenant that Members from both sides of the House were proud to support.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is appropriate that the last Adjournment debate of this Parliament concerns our veterans and our soldiers, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing it. Many Members have a particular interest in the armed forces. In the years that I have been a Member of Parliament, we have had the chance to speak on behalf of our veterans. I know many veterans who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and their number, after Iraq and Afghanistan, has increased significantly in the past few years. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the onus is on the Ministry of Defence, the Department of Health and local government to work together to address this issue? The Minister represents the Department of Health. Other Departments, which are not represented here tonight, need to work alongside her.

Mr Marsden: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, who is assiduous in covering veterans’ issues in this House. I pay tribute to the military from Northern Ireland for the sacrifices they have suffered over the years. He is absolutely right. We are pleased that the Minister is here tonight, but the issue can only be solved out of Government silos.

The covenant enshrines the principles of no disadvantage and special treatment. These, in turn, dictate that a person should experience no disadvantage as a result of military

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service and that it is appropriate in some cases for special treatment to be applied to those who are serving or have served. We have already seen that as a result of failing to disregard the war pension, Ministers are not providing any special treatment for veterans. More fundamentally, however, they end up failing the rule of no disadvantage, too, as the injuries incurred purely as a result of action in the armed forces receive little compensation when income such as the war pension is diverted into providing standard civilian social care.

I am pleased, therefore, that my colleagues in the Labour Front Bench team have pledged, under a future Labour Government, to review the compensation schemes to see where they might be improved. In particular, the focus should be to take a laser-like focus to existing and new rules that affect veterans through the prism of the armed forces covenant. We want to ensure that the principles of no disadvantage and special treatment are met by all arms of government.

All Members have, at one time or another, drawn attention to the strong feelings of many veterans and others about insufficient engagement with the concerns raised in relation to social care and military compensation. I welcome the reports from the Government, the Royal British Legion and Poppyscotland that talks are ongoing about how the two schemes might be aligned, but we need to see results. After all, every year, as more elderly veterans pass away, the group of people who could benefit from a change in the rules diminishes by 5%. Half that group are aged 70 or over. We are running out of time to offer these people the chance to navigate social care in far greater comfort, with access to the full deserts of their military compensation. With a change in the rules, we can put this right, but it needs real Government commitment. I have to say, however, that when we look at the Government’s stated objections so far, they seem to give the impression of delaying progress rather than accelerating it.

Ministers have claimed that some of those on the old war pension scheme also receive top-ups to their pension, which are designed to help to pay for care costs. Only 6% of war pensioners actually receive such care top-ups. More to the point, it is surely not beyond the wit of the Government to devise guidelines that will include those care top-ups in the payment for social care, but not include that part of their income that relates to the pain suffered through injuries received in the field of conflict. This is a position that the Royal British Legion accepts would be perfectly reasonable.

Ministers have also suggested that military compensation could be placed in a trust fund to protect it from social care means-testing. However, given how war pension works, only a small amount is provided as a lump sum. For the most severely injured veterans, most compensation is provided through regular payments that cannot be placed in a trust. It has also been suggested that the war pensions scheme was established before the modern understanding of personal injury compensation, yet it is clearly understood that way, as is evident, as much as anywhere, from the words of the veterans Minister, who said:

“The War Pensions Scheme provides no fault compensation to Service personnel disabled as a result of their service in HM Forces.”

In the discussion of all these disregards, different schemes and allowances, the human effects of these rules and their perceived injustices can too often be

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forgotten. In my area, the Royal British Legion estimates that 600 veterans in the pre-2005 group could see their war pension eaten up by care costs, and Members across the country will have service constituents who have told emotive tales of the effects of losing their compensation.

Keith Clarke, who is 43 years old, was left paraplegic while attempting to put out a fire on his submarine. He receives a large war pension for the most severe injuries, but £100 is lost every week to meet the cost of his care worker, who visits daily to help him dress and look after his two children, one of whom is also disabled. His only other benefit comes from statutory benefits. He told The Daily Telegraph:

“I feel angry and frustrated. It’s…an injustice to be treated as a second-class citizen.”

Fred Cannon, who fought on the Gold beach at Normandy on D-day when he was 19 years old, was the only survivor of the company to come home, but a severe bullet wound left him with one leg shorter than the other. Now in his 90s, like too many others, he is left with only £10 a week compensation. Then there is the 50-year-old Lancashire veteran who was diagnosed with osteoporosis from his time in the Army. He said:

“Unless the system changes, I’m concerned that I will lose a lot of my pension, which isn’t fair. People who receive AFCS don’t pay for their social care—and rightly so—but why should we pay just because we were injured before April 2005? It doesn’t make sense.”

Of the two principles of the armed forces covenant, it is ultimately not special treatment that veterans want; all they want is not to be put at a disadvantage: to have the injuries they suffered in the armed forces compensated for in their own right and then to make a contribution from their other income towards social care, just as any civilian would rightly do. They want fair treatment for all and a system that does not discriminate on the basis of an arbitrary date; they want to be treated the same in the different means tests that central and local government operate; and they want to be treated in the same way as civilians who receive compensation for personal injury.

Whatever the historical context of the creation of the war pension scheme or the complexities of its operation today, it is surely possible to design a system that will meet the requirements of the proper 21st century fairness that the veterans are asking for. The time has come to go beyond discussions and look for concrete solutions to the disparity between the two different military compensation schemes, rather than focusing on the obstacles to a more just system. I am pleased to note that Labour would review the fairness of military compensation in the light of the armed forces covenant, and I call on Ministers to show a similar political will and commitment.

Many Members will have the date of 7 May on their minds tonight, but many other people will have a possibly more important date—the next day—on their minds. That will be the 70th anniversary of VE-day. I feel honoured that both my late parents served in that conflict, and I am mindful of the debt we owe to those of that generation who remain with us. At this time, we must surely refocus our energies to ensure that we provide all the support that the brave men and women who have served in conflicts spanning the last 70 years deserve, particularly as they make their way through challenging periods of their lives in the social care system.

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7.59 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) for bringing this important issue before the House. It provides me with an opportunity to clarify our current position. I hope the hon. Gentleman will allow me first to place the issue in the broader context, particularly the context of reforms in social care.

To make some sense of that broader context, at the turn of this century there were 25 times as many people aged 85 and over than there were at the turn of the last century. Although this is something to be celebrated, it also means there are more people needing care and support, and three quarters of us can expect to need long-term care.

Care and support is an issue that has, I think, been ignored for far too long, and I am proud to say that this Government have taken steps to put that right. The Care Act 2014 is a bold and historic piece of legislation that for the first time places adult care and support law in a single clear statute. The Act puts people at the heart of the system by enshrining the principle of individual well-being at its core. It will ensure that people themselves will be able to shape their care and support, focusing on what they want to achieve and the outcomes that matter to them, and it will support them to maintain their well-being and independence for longer.

The Care Act focuses on acting early to prevent people from reaching crisis points, and will ensure that everyone can access information and advice to help them understand the new system and what it means for them. This means services for the broader community—not just those with assessed needs—further supporting our aim to help people to stay independent for as long as possible. When we do need care, the Act provides for a single threshold for eligibility to care and support in England, ensuring transparency and consistency, irrespective of where we live. I am pleased that this historic legislation will come into force exactly one week from today.

We do not intend to stop there. How we pay for health care and support is just as important as the care we receive. Most people do not realise that care and support has never been free, unlike health, and we have always been asked to contribute what we can afford. Those who have the greatest needs and the longest care journeys risk losing nearly everything simply to meet that cost.

For all the other areas of life where we face such risks, we are protected by the welfare state or we can protect ourselves through insurance. When it comes to care, however, successive Governments have taken a different view. We are often left alone at the point when we are most vulnerable. That is clearly not good enough, and I am proud that we will be introducing the biggest reforms of how we pay for care in over 65 years. We do so through the cap on care costs, which will put an end to the risk of catastrophic costs, and we will provide greater financial help for those who need it most.

The detailed proposals of how the new system will work are currently out for consultation. With just under a week still to go, I am pleased that we have already had over 700 responses and have engaged with over 1,000 people

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through a series of events helping to ensure that we take account of a wide range of views. The new cap system will play a critical role in helping people to plan and prepare for the risk of needing care and support, and create the right conditions for the financial sector to create new products that could cover these costs.

When it comes to those who have served their country and have made a great sacrifice in the line of duty, this Government have given a very clear commitment to support members of the armed forces community, both serving personnel and veterans. The hon. Member for Blackpool South has illustrated exactly why that is the right thing to do. We have enshrined that commitment in legislation through the armed forces covenant.

As the hon. Gentleman outlined, for those who have been injured in the line of duty there are currently two different schemes that provide compensation, based on when the injury occurred. For those who were injured before the 6 April 2005, there is the war pension scheme; for those injured afterwards, there is the armed forces compensation scheme. While both schemes have the same goals—to offer financial support to those injured in the line of duty—they are ultimately both a product of their time and the social context in which they were developed. Under both schemes, personal injury compensation lump sums are disregarded when deciding how much someone can pay for care, provided the payments are placed in a trust—I noted the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about regular payments—but other sorts of payments may be taken into account.

The war pension scheme was created after the first world war in response to the large numbers whose lives had been irrevocably changed as a result of their service to their country. In 1918, however, there was no welfare state, no NHS and no benefits system. Most people did not have access to private pensions, meaning that for those needing care but without family or friends to support them, the outlook was often bleak. The scheme therefore provided for that. It provides a basic war disablement pension and a variety of supplementary allowances that would be equivalent to the modern benefits system, and it reflects the fact that people needed to pay for both health and care costs.

By contrast, the armed forces compensation scheme introduced in 2005 reflects the fact that we have an advanced welfare state. It therefore looks to the NHS and the benefits system to provide support, just as it would to anyone, ensuring the principle of “no disadvantage” enshrined in the armed forces covenant.

The scheme introduced a modern, fair and simple system that provides a strong basis for the future, but this is a difficult and complex issue. I note the hon. Gentleman’s frustration—as he said, there has been much discussion—but, as I have said, the issue is complex. Depending on the extent of their injuries, veterans can receive a number of different allowances under the war pension scheme, such as constant attendance allowance, an unemployability supplement, comforts allowance, age allowance, treatment allowance, mobility supplement, and medical expenses.

The Royal British Legion broadly accepts that the treatment of war pension scheme payments is complex. I am grateful to it for highlighting its concerns, and for continuing to working with departmental officials to

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help us to understand the issue better. It is vital for us to understand it fully before considering what is to be done next. We must understand how the two schemes work, and the implications of considering any changes, to ensure that there are no unintended consequences, and we must also understand any cost implications of change. I note what the hon. Gentleman said about the commitment of his party colleagues to reviewing the scheme, but that commitment to a review suggests that they too are cautious, and feel the same need to understand the possible implications.

Mr Marsden: I do not wish to intrude on the Minister’s time, and I agree that the process is complex. I recall Churchill’s observation that it was not the end or even the beginning of the end, but it might be the end of the beginning. Will the Minister tell us how far down the line we might be expected to be at this point, and what stage the Government think has been reached?

Jane Ellison: I will come to that, and will try to give the hon. Gentleman a bit of reassurance about the advanced and ongoing work that is taking place.

Social care is a priority for the Government, and, in the context of difficult spending decisions, we have taken steps to protect care and support services. For example, we have allocated extra funds for those services during the current Parliament. We have created a better care fund, which, next month, will introduce a £5.3 billion pooled budget for health and care that will provide much needed funding for care and support, and will break new ground in driving closer integration of services.

Although spending on care and support is ultimately a decision for local government, we must be mindful of the overall fiscal position. I think that Members on both sides of the House agree on that. We must ensure that if we change the charging rules nationally, the cost will be met. To that end, my officials are continuing to work with their counterparts at the Ministry of Defence—I hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman some sense of momentum, and deals with his concern about “silo” working—and with the Royal British Legion, with a view to considering the issue during the spending review that will take place after the election.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman—and, indeed, all hon. Members—will welcome the historic reforms that will come into force in just one week’s time. They are very significant in the context of the broader issue of care. This Government have been the first to prioritise care and support. I hope that Members in all parts of the House will feel able to welcome the clear plans that I have set out for the future. As for the specific issue that the hon. Gentleman has raised, I hope he recognises that this is ongoing work which is taken very seriously. His securing of what has turned out to be the last Adjournment debate of this Parliament has underlined the importance of the issue that he has raised. I think that, throughout the purdah period and beyond, the debate will give added momentum to the work that is being done.

Given that this has been the last Adjournment debate of the current Parliament, Madam Deputy Speaker—and you and I have shared a number Adjournment debates—let me take this opportunity to thank you and, through you, Mr Speaker and the other Deputy Speakers. I also thank all the staff of the House, and, in particular,

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those who have sat through some of our late-night health debates, of which there have been many. However, I especially thank the Chair, and all those who have supported the Chair during these important Adjournment debates, which give us a chance—as tonight’s debate has—to explore important issues in some detail, outside the heated atmosphere that the Chamber attracts on other occasions. I also thank Members in all parts of the House, some of whom are very regular attenders at these debates, for their attendance tonight, and for the interest that they have taken in these important matters.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I thank the hon. Lady for the gracious way she has thanked

25 Mar 2015 : Column 1554

Officers of the House in respect of Adjournment debates. These debates are extremely important and she has taken part in many of them, as have I and the other Deputy Speakers and Mr Speaker, and we all appreciate how important they are. I also thank the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) for introducing the final Adjournment debate of this Parliament.

Question put and agreed to.

8.10 pm

House adjourned.

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Deferred Division

Infrastructure Planning

That the draft Infrastructure Planning (Radioactive Waste Geological Disposal Facilities) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 12 January, be approved.

The House divided:

Ayes 277, Noes 33.

Division No. 183]


Adams, Nigel

Afriyie, Adam

Aldous, Peter

Alexander, rh Danny

Amess, Sir David

Andrew, Stuart

Arbuthnot, rh Mr James

Baker, Steve

Baldry, rh Sir Tony

Baldwin, Harriett

Barclay, Stephen

Barker, rh Gregory

Baron, Mr John

Barwell, Gavin

Bebb, Guto

Bellingham, Mr Henry

Beresford, Sir Paul

Berry, Jake

Bingham, Andrew

Birtwistle, Gordon

Blackman, Bob

Blackwood, Nicola

Boles, Nick

Bone, Mr Peter

Bottomley, Sir Peter

Bradley, Karen

Brady, Mr Graham

Brake, rh Tom

Bray, Angie

Brazier, Mr Julian

Bridgen, Andrew

Brine, Steve

Brokenshire, James

Browne, Mr Jeremy

Bruce, Fiona

Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm

Buckland, Mr Robert

Burns, Conor

Burns, rh Mr Simon

Burrowes, Mr David

Burstow, rh Paul

Burt, rh Alistair

Byles, Dan

Cairns, Alun

Cameron, rh Mr David

Campbell, Mr Gregory

Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair

Carmichael, Neil

Chishti, Rehman

Clark, rh Greg

Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey

Coffey, Dr Thérèse

Collins, Damian

Colvile, Oliver

Crabb, rh Stephen

Crouch, Tracey

Davey, rh Mr Edward

Davies, David T. C.


Davies, Glyn

Davies, Philip

de Bois, Nick

Dinenage, Caroline

Djanogly, Mr Jonathan

Dodds, rh Mr Nigel

Doyle-Price, Jackie

Drax, Richard

Duddridge, James

Duncan, rh Sir Alan

Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain

Dunne, Mr Philip

Ellis, Michael

Ellison, Jane

Ellwood, Mr Tobias

Elphicke, Charlie

Eustice, George

Evans, Graham

Evans, Jonathan

Evans, Mr Nigel

Evennett, rh Mr David

Fabricant, Michael

Fallon, rh Michael

Field, rh Mark

Foster, rh Mr Don

Francois, rh Mr Mark

Freer, Mike

Fuller, Richard

Gale, Sir Roger

Gauke, Mr David

Gibb, Mr Nick

Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl

Glen, John

Goodwill, Mr Robert

Gove, rh Michael

Grant, Mrs Helen

Grayling, rh Chris

Green, rh Damian

Greening, rh Justine

Grieve, rh Mr Dominic

Griffiths, Andrew

Gyimah, Mr Sam

Hague, rh Mr William

Hammond, rh Mr Philip

Hammond, Stephen

Hancock, rh Matthew

Hancock, Mr Mike

Hands, rh Greg

Harper, Mr Mark

Harrington, Richard

Harris, Rebecca

Hart, Simon

Harvey, Sir Nick

Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan

Hayes, rh Mr John

Heald, Sir Oliver

Hemming, John

Henderson, Gordon

Hendry, rh Charles

Herbert, rh Nick

Hinds, Damian

Hoban, Mr Mark

Hollingbery, George

Hollobone, Mr Philip

Hopkins, Kris

Howarth, Sir Gerald

Howell, John

Hughes, rh Simon

Hunter, Mark

Huppert, Dr Julian

Hurd, Mr Nick

James, Margot

Javid, rh Sajid

Jenkin, Mr Bernard

Johnson, Gareth

Johnson, Joseph

Jones, Andrew

Jones, rh Mr David

Jones, Mr Marcus

Kelly, Chris

Kirby, Simon

Knight, rh Sir Greg

Kwarteng, Kwasi

Lancaster, Mark

Lansley, rh Mr Andrew

Latham, Pauline

Laws, rh Mr David

Leadsom, Andrea

Lee, Dr Phillip

Lefroy, Jeremy

Leigh, Sir Edward

Leslie, Charlotte

Lewis, Brandon

Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian

Lidington, rh Mr David

Lilley, rh Mr Peter

Lopresti, Jack

Loughton, Tim

Luff, Sir Peter

Macleod, Mary

May, rh Mrs Theresa

Maynard, Paul

McCartney, Karl

McPartland, Stephen

Menzies, Mark

Metcalfe, Stephen

Miller, rh Maria

Mills, Nigel

Milton, rh Anne

Moore, rh Michael

Morgan, rh Nicky

Morris, Anne Marie

Morris, James

Mosley, Stephen

Mowat, David

Mundell, rh David

Murray, Sheryll

Murrison, Dr Andrew

Newmark, Mr Brooks

Newton, Sarah

Nokes, Caroline

Norman, Jesse

Nuttall, Mr David

O'Brien, rh Mr Stephen

Offord, Dr Matthew

Ollerenshaw, Eric

Opperman, Guy

Osborne, rh Mr George

Ottaway, rh Sir Richard

Paice, rh Sir James

Patel, Priti

Pawsey, Mark

Penrose, John

Perry, Claire

Pickles, rh Mr Eric

Prisk, Mr Mark

Pritchard, Mark

Pugh, John

Raab, Mr Dominic

Randall, rh Sir John

Reckless, Mark

Redwood, rh Mr John

Rees-Mogg, Jacob

Reevell, Simon

Robertson, Mr Laurence

Rogerson, Dan

Rosindell, Andrew

Rudd, Amber

Ruffley, Mr David

Russell, Sir Bob

Rutley, David

Sandys, Laura

Scott, Mr Lee

Selous, Andrew

Shannon, Jim

Sharma, Alok

Sheerman, Mr Barry

Shelbrooke, Alec

Shepherd, Sir Richard

Simpson, rh Mr Keith

Skidmore, Chris

Smith, Chloe

Smith, Henry

Smith, Julian

Smith, Sir Robert

Soames, rh Sir Nicholas

Soubry, Anna

Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline

Spencer, Mr Mark

Stanley, rh Sir John

Stephenson, Andrew

Stevenson, John

Stewart, Bob

Stewart, Iain

Stewart, Rory

Streeter, Mr Gary

Stride, Mel

Stuart, Mr Graham

Stunell, rh Sir Andrew

Sturdy, Julian

Swales, Ian

Swayne, rh Mr Desmond

Swinson, Jo

Swire, rh Mr Hugo

Syms, Mr Robert

Tapsell, rh Sir Peter

Teather, Sarah

Thurso, rh John

Tomlinson, Justin

Truss, rh Elizabeth

Turner, Mr Andrew

Tyrie, Mr Andrew

Uppal, Paul

Vara, Mr Shailesh

Vickers, Martin

Walker, Mr Charles

Walker, Mr Robin

Wallace, Mr Ben

Ward, Mr David

Watkinson, Dame Angela

Weatherley, Mike

Webb, rh Steve

Wharton, James

Wheeler, Heather

White, Chris

Whittaker, Craig

Whittingdale, Mr John

Wiggin, Bill

Willetts, rh Mr David

Williams, Roger

Williamson, Gavin

Willott, rh Jenny

Wilson, Mr Rob

Wright, rh Jeremy

Wright, Simon

Yeo, Mr Tim

Young, rh Sir George

Zahawi, Nadhim


Anderson, Mr David

Beith, rh Sir Alan

Brooke, rh Annette

Brown, Mr Russell

Caton, Martin

Clark, Katy

Corbyn, Jeremy

Davis, rh Mr David

Durkan, Mark

Edwards, Jonathan

Flynn, Paul

Galloway, George

Garnier, Mark

George, Andrew

Goldsmith, Zac

Hames, Duncan

Heath, rh Mr David

Hopkins, Kelvin

Horwood, Martin

Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn

Lucas, Caroline

McCartney, Jason

McDonnell, Dr Alasdair

McDonnell, John

Morris, Grahame M.


Munt, Tessa

Percy, Andrew

Reed, Mr Jamie

Ritchie, Ms Margaret

Sanders, Mr Adrian

Skinner, Mr Dennis

Weir, Mr Mike

Williams, Hywel

Question accordingly agreed to.

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