Serious Crime Bill [Lords]

The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairs: Katy Clark  , †Philip Davies 

Baker, Norman (Lewes) (LD) 

† Beresford, Sir Paul (Mole Valley) (Con) 

† Bradley, Karen (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department)  

† Buckland, Mr Robert (Solicitor-General)  

† Champion, Sarah (Rotherham) (Lab) 

† Coffey, Ann (Stockport) (Lab) 

† Dromey, Jack (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) 

† Hinds, Damian (East Hampshire) (Con) 

† Latham, Pauline (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) 

† Llwyd, Mr Elfyn (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) 

† McDonald, Andy (Middlesbrough) (Lab) 

† Malhotra, Seema (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op) 

† Miller, Maria (Basingstoke) (Con) 

† Pincher, Christopher (Tamworth) (Con) 

† Reed, Mr Steve (Croydon North) (Lab) 

† Simpson, Mr Keith (Broadland) (Con) 

Stunell, Sir Andrew (Hazel Grove) (LD) 

† Wheeler, Heather (South Derbyshire) (Con) 

† Wilson, Phil (Sedgefield) (Lab) 

Fergus Reid, Oliver Coddington, Committee Clerk s

† attended the Committee

Public Bill Committee 

Thursday 22 January 2015  

[Philip Davies in the Chair] 

Serious Crime Bill [Lords]

11.30 am 

Clause 74 ordered to stand part of the Bill.  

Schedule 4 

Minor and consequential amendments 

Amendments made: 16, in schedule 4, page 105, line 33, at end insert— 

“16A In section 6 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (making of order) at the end of subsection (5) insert—

“Paragraph (b) applies only if, or to the extent that, it would not be disproportionate to require the defendant to pay the recoverable amount.””

This amendment and amendments 17 and 18 amend provisions of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 relating to confiscation orders in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so that the court’s duty to make a confiscation order for the recoverable amount applies only to the extent that it would be proportionate to do so.

Amendment 17, in schedule 4, page 108, line 3, at end insert— 

“31A In section 92 of that Act (making of order), at the end of subsection (6) insert—

“Paragraph (b) applies only if, or to the extent that, it would not be disproportionate to require the accused to pay the recoverable amount.””

Amendment 18, in schedule 4, page 110, line 21, at end insert— 

“41A In section 156 of that Act (making of order), at the end of subsection (5) insert—

“Paragraph (b) applies only if, or to the extent that, it would not be disproportionate to require the defendant to pay the recoverable amount.””.—(Karen Bradley.)

Amendment s made: 19, in schedule 4, page 112, line 1, at end insert— 

“In section 78 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (meaning of “sexual”), for “except section 71” substitute “except sections 15A and 71”.”

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]. It provides that the definition of “sexual” in section 78 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 does not apply to new section 15A of that Act as inserted by the new clause.

Amendment 20, in schedule 4, page 112, line 1, at end insert— 

“In Schedule 2 to that Act (sexual offences to which provisions about extra-territorial application apply), in paragraph 1(a), for “sections 5 to 19” substitute “sections 5 to 15, 16 to 19”.”

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]. Its effect is that the provisions of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 which provide for offences committed outside the United Kingdom to be prosecuted in England and Wales in some circumstances do not apply to the new offence.

Amendment 21, in schedule 4, page 112, line 3, at end insert— 

“( ) After paragraph 24 insert—

“24A An offence under section 15A of this Act (sexual communication with a child).””

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]. It provides that a conviction for the new offence of sexual communication with a child automatically triggers the notification requirements for sex offenders provided by Part 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

Amendment 22, in schedule 4, page 112, line 18, at end insert— 

“In Schedule 15 to that Act (specified offences for purposes of Chapter 5 of Part 12), after paragraph 116 insert—

“116A An offence under section 15A of that Act (sexual communication with a child).””

This amendment adds the new offence of sexual communication with a child (see New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]) to the offences specified for the purposes of Chapter 5 of Part 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which makes provision for extended determinate sentences for dangerous offenders.

Amendment 23, in schedule 4, page 112, line 18, at end insert— 

“( ) Schedule 34A to that Act (child sex offences for purposes of section 327A) is amended as follows.

( ) In paragraph 7(b), for “15” substitute “15A”.

( ) After paragraph 13A insert—

“13B An offence under section 66 of the Serious Crime Act 2015 (possession of paedophile manual).”.” —(The Solicitor-General .)

This amendment brings the new offence of sexual communication with a child (see New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]), and the new offence of possession of a paedophile manual (see clause 66), within the disclosure provisions set out in section 327A of the Criminal Justice Act 2003.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley):  I beg to move amendment 24, in schedule 4, page 114, line 18, at beginning insert “Part 1 of”. 

This is a drafting amendment to make it clear that the amendments made by paragraph 73 of Schedule 4 to the Bill are to Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012.

The Chair:  With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 25 and 26. 

Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op):  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Davies. I have a question, of which I have given notice to the Minister. I simply ask for a point of clarification on Government amendment 26 on the provision of legal aid, which we welcome. Will the legal aid proposals cover advocacy as well civil legal services—that is, will they include both solicitor and barrister services if need be, depending on the case? 

Karen Bradley:  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, albeit I hope quite briefly this morning. I will respond to the shadow Minister’s question directly. Part 3 of schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 provides that the civil legal services listed in part 1 of schedule 1 to that Act do not generally include advocacy, subject to exceptions. Advocacy in the relevant civil courts, including the family court, is already caught by those exceptions, but amendment 26 ensures that advocacy in proceedings to vary or discharge female genital mutilation protection orders in the Crown court and magistrates court is also included in the exceptions. Legal aid for

advocacy will therefore be available in such cases. Given that reassurance, I hope the hon. Lady will be happy to accept the amendment. 

Seema Malhotra:  I thank the Minister for her response and very much appreciate what she has told the Committee. On that basis we will support the amendments. 

Amendment 24 agreed to.  

Amendments made: 25, in schedule 4, page 114, line 19, at end insert— 

‘( ) After paragraph 15 insert—

“Female genital mutilation protection orders

15A (1) Civil legal services provided in relation to female genital mutilation protection orders under paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003.

Exclusions

(2) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to the exclusions in Parts 2 and 3 of this Schedule.””

This amendment and amendment 26 amend Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 to provide for civil legal aid to be made available for civil legal services provided in relation to female genital mutilation protection orders (as provided for in clause 70 of the Bill).

Amendment 26, in schedule 4, page 114, line 23, at end insert— 

“( ) Part 3 of that Schedule (advocacy: exclusion and exceptions) is amended as follows.

( ) In paragraph 6—

(a) omit “and” at the end of paragraph (a);

(b) at the end insert “, and

(c) proceedings for the variation or discharge of an order under paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003.”

( ) In paragraph 8—

(a) omit “and” at the end of paragraph (c);

(b) at the end insert “, and

(e) proceedings for the variation or discharge of an order under paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003.””—(Karen Bradley.)

Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.  

Clause 75 

Transitional and saving provisions 

Amendments made: 2, in clause 75, page 79, line 26, at end insert— 

“() in the Sexual Offences Act 2003, subsection (3)(a) of the section 15A inserted by section (Sexual communication with a child) above;”

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]. It makes transitional provision so that the maximum penalty on summary conviction for the new offence is six months’ imprisonment, rather than 12 months’, pending the coming into force of section 154(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003.

Amendment 3, in clause 75, page 79, line 32, at end insert— 

“() section (Controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship)(11)(b).”

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC9) [Controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship]. It makes transitional provision so that the maximum penalty on summary conviction for the new offence is six months’ imprisonment, rather than 12 months’, pending the coming into force of section 154(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003.

Amendment 4, in clause 75, page 79, line 32, at end insert— 

‘( ) In relation to an offence committed before section 85(1) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 comes into force—

(a) a reference to a fine in the following provisions is to be read as a reference to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum—

(i) section 60(3)(a);

(ii) in the Sexual Offences Act 2003, subsection (3)(a) of the section 15A inserted by section (Sexual communication with a child) above;

(iii) in the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003, paragraph (b) of the subsection (2) inserted in section 5 by section 69(4)(b) above;

(iv) paragraph 4(5)(b) of the Schedule inserted in that Act by section 70(2) above;

(v) section (Controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship)(11)(b) above;

(vi) in the Prison Act 1952, subsection (4)(b) of the section 40CA inserted by section 71 above;

(b) the reference to a fine in paragraph 2(2)(a) of the Schedule to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003, inserted in that Act by section 68(2) above, is to be read as a reference to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.” —(The Solicitor-General .)

This amendment provides for a transitional provision in respect of the maximum fine that may be imposed on summary conviction in respect of new offences created by the Bill. Pending the coming into force of section 85(1) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, the maximum fine in such cases would be the current statutory maximum (£5,000) rather than an unlimited amount.

Clause 75, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.  

Clause 76 

Extent 

Amendments made: 5, in clause 76, page 79, line 45, at end insert— 

“() section (Sexual communication with a child);”

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC8) [Sexual communication with a child]. It provides that the new clause extends to England and Wales only.

Amendment 6, in clause 76, page 79, line 45, at end insert— 

“() sections (Controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship) and (Guidance);”

This amendment is consequential on New Clauses (NC9) [Controlling or coercive behaviour in an intimate or family relationship] and (10) [Guidance]. It provides that the new clauses extend to England and Wales only.

Amendment 7, in clause 76, page 80, line 1, at beginning insert— 

‘( ) Section (Prevention or restriction of use of communication devices by prisoners etc) extends to England and Wales and Scotland (but not Northern Ireland).” —(The Solicitor-General .)

This amendment is consequential on New Clause (NC11) [Prevention or restriction of use of communication devices by prisoners etc]. It provides that the new clause extends to England and Wales and Scotland.

Clause 76 , as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.  

Clause 77 

Commencement 

Amendments made: 8, in clause 77, page 80, line 26, leave out “32” and insert “31A” 

This amendment and amendment 9 provide for new paragraphs 31A and 41A of Schedule 4, inserted by amendments 17 and 18, to be brought into force by the Scottish Ministers and the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland (following consultation with the Home Secretary) respectively.

Amendment 9, in clause 77, page 80, line 32, leave out “42” and insert “41A” 

Amendment 10, in clause 77, page 80, line 34, leave out “The following provisions” and insert “Sections 67 to 69” 

This amendment and amendments 11 and 13 provide that clause 72 of the Bill (which is about extra-territorial jurisdiction in respect of certain terrorism-related offences), and a related consequential amendment in Schedule 4, come into force on the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent rather than two months after Royal Assent as clause 77 currently provides.

Amendment 11, in clause 77, page 80, line 36, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) 

Amendment 12, in clause 77, page 80, line 40, at end insert— 

“() section (Prevention or restriction of use of communication devices by prisoners etc);”

The effect of this amendment is that New Clause (NC11) [Prevention or restriction of use of communication devices by prisoners etc] comes into force on the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent.

Amendment 13, in clause 77, page 80, line 40, at end insert— 

“() section 72 and paragraph 60 of Schedule 4 (and section 74(1) so far as relating to that paragraph);”

Amendment 14, in clause 77, page 81, line 17, at end insert— 

‘( ) Consultation for the purposes of subsection (2), (3), (6) or (7) may be, or include, consultation before the day on which this Act is passed.” —(The Solicitor-General .)

This amendment provides that the obligation on the Secretary of State to consult the Scottish Ministers and Northern Ireland Department of Justice, and vice versa, before bringing into force certain provisions of the Bill, as required by clause 77, may be complied with before the Bill receives Royal Assent.

Clause 77 , as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.  

Clause 78 

Short title 

Amendment made: 15, in clause 78, page 81, line 26, leave out subsection (2) —(The Solicitor-General .)  

Subsection (2) of clause 78 was inserted by the Lords to avoid questions of privilege. Its removal by this amendment would be purely procedural.

Clause 7 8 , as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.  

Title 

Amendments made: 27, in title, line 8, after “children;” insert 

“to create an offence of communicating sexually with a child;” 

Amendment 28, in title, line 8, after “children;” insert 

“to create an offence in relation to controlling or coercive behaviour in intimate or family relationships;” 

Amendment 29, in title, line 9, after “prison;” insert 

“to make provision for the prevention or restriction of the use of communication devices by persons detained in custodial institutions;”—(The Solicitor-General .)  

The Chair:  Before we move to the important question of reporting the Bill, as amended, to the House, I am prepared to entertain brief, pithy and witty points of order from either side thanking all and sundry for the work that has been put in from all quarters to make this process effective. 

Karen Bradley:  On a point of order, Mr Davies. I will endeavour to be as brief as we have been in our deliberations today. 

As we reach the end of our deliberations on the Bill, I would like to say a few words to mark the occasion. The Bill has had the benefit of a broad measure of cross-party support, but the Committee has none the less ensured that its provisions have received proper scrutiny. 

I am grateful, as indeed is my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, for the courteous and constructive way in which the hon. Members for Birmingham, Erdington, for Croydon North and for Feltham and Heston have approached their task on the Opposition Front Bench. 

I am also grateful to the Whips, my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire and the hon. Member for Sedgefield, for the way they ensured that the Committee kept to good time. 

I must also record my thanks to you, Mr Davies, and your co-Chair, Ms Clark, for the way you have not only ensured that our deliberations have been conducted in an orderly manner, but kept us from straying too widely from the issues at hand. 

I also extend my thanks, and I am sure the whole Committee will join me in this, to the Clerks, the Hansard writers and the doorkeepers. 

Finally, on behalf of my hon. and learned Friend, the Solicitor-General, and myself, I extend my thanks to all the officials and lawyers from the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice and the Solicitor-General’s office who have supported us in Committee. 

Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab):  Thank you, Chair; it is a pleasure to have served under your chairmanship. 

Brevity is not normally my greatest strength. I remember being told, when I was about to address a conference, “You’ve got five minutes.” I said, “Five minutes? Normally, it takes me five minutes to introduce myself.”—[ Laughter. ]  

This is an important Bill, ranging from—on the one hand—tackling the obscenity of child sex exploitation to—on the other hand—the grotesque and growing threat to our country of terrorism. 

On dealing with the proceeds of crime, welcome progress has been made; the law has been strengthened. We also welcome the fact that a very important barrier, by way of a disincentive to the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute, has been removed. In the future, Rolls-Royce lawyers may be hired but the costs will be capped at legal aid costs. 

On computer misuse, we rightly argued for much greater responsibility to be placed on internet service providers. The Internet Watch Foundation is right when

it says that there is a high degree of co-operation with providers in this country, but there are still big question marks about some providers, for example some of those based in the United States of America. Therefore, we regret that further progress was not made. Nevertheless, there was progress. 

On organised, serious and gang-related crime, the hon. Member for Croydon North, using his considerable experience as leader of Lambeth borough council, rightly argued for a much greater emphasis on prevention, including the notion of dissuasion panels. 

Part 4 of the Bill, which is about drug-cutting agents, strengthens the law, and rightly so; crucially, it is now about enforcement of the law. Part 5 of the Bill is about child protection and female genital mutilation. Understandably, consideration of this part of the Bill dominated the Committee’s time. There were important gaps in the law relating to child protection that were addressed; for example, the child cruelty offence was updated and the possession of a paedophile manual was criminalised. The progress that has been made is indeed welcome, and the same is true of the strengthening of the law on FGM. Important progress was made on that issue, sending unmistakable messages, including on extraterritorial liability. We regret that the Government would not go that one step further in relation to criminalising positive encouragement of FGM. Nevertheless, progress was made. 

Finally, in the section relating to knives and mobile phones, but also terrorism, there was a high degree of consensus, and rightly so, because whatever differences there may be between political parties, there is an obligation on us all in this House to stand as one in opposition to the growing and grotesque threat of terrorism. 

In conclusion, I thank both the Ministers who have led on behalf of the Government. We have agreed to disagree on occasion, but the open-mindedness of approach and flexibility of response have been welcome. We will continue to push them to go further, but the debate in Committee has been conducted in a manner that reflects well on this House. 

I also thank my colleagues, the shadow Ministers; this is the first Bill they have considered as shadow Ministers. I am a veteran of the Localism Act 2011, which I will never forget—all 20 sittings. I thank them for their excellent contributions; both of them gave a tour de force. 

I thank all our staff. We do not have the same battery of resources available to the Government. However, we are, as I think Private Eye once described it, “small but perfectly formed.” I thank all members of their Committee for their contributions. Again, there was a high degree of consensus across the Committee on some of the key issues that we were considering. I thank our Whips for their characteristic efficiency in taking us through a very important Bill in effectively seven sittings. They have done an excellent job. I thank the staff—those in

the back room—without whom Parliament could not function and, in particular, the Clerks: Fergus, Oliver and Kate. Their work is deeply appreciated. 

11.45 am 

In conclusion, Mr Davies, I thank you and Ms Clark for chairing the Committee. I stress that we are disappointed that further progress was not made in some areas. However, a number of welcome changes have been made to strengthen the law without hesitation and we will continue to debate that further, including on Report. 

Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC):  Further to that point of order, Mr Davies, I am grateful to you and Ms Clark for chairing the Committee so ably. The proceedings have been an example of Parliament at its best. We may have disagreed in several areas but the arguments were sensible, and based on fact and research; it has been an excellent Committee to be part of. I thought, when the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington rose, that we were going to have a reference to Joe and Josephine Soap from the Dog and Duck—[ Laughter. ] Evidently, they are elsewhere being dried out at the moment. We did not quite get there. 

There are a number of important facets to the Bill, which I shall not go through because the hon. Gentleman listed them. It is an important Bill in many ways and I am delighted that it was the vehicle for my coercive control change to the law, which I have been worrying about for some time. I pay tribute to the Solicitor-General because he was involved in the early days of that campaign. Perhaps it is going too far to say it was a pleasure, but it has been a privilege to serve on the Committee. It will be my last before I stand down. 

Jack Dromey:  On that point, it is right that we record that there are many champions on the Committee. For example, on the Opposition side sit my hon. Friends the Members for Stockport and for Rotherham, who have done great work, often in difficult circumstances, on the issue of child exploitation and abuse. However, one of the finest champions that the House has seen in a long time, of the causes that he has espoused and the progress made in the Bill, is the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] 

Mr Llwyd:  On that note, what can I say? It is time to saddle the horse. 

The Chair:  It has been a pleasure to chair the Committee. I thank everybody for making it so agreeable, and the Clerks for making me look mildly competent because without them I would not. I particularly thank my co-Chair, Katy Clark, who did all the hard work. 

Bill, as amended, to be reported.  

11.48 am 

Committee rose.  

Written evidence reported to the House

SC 08 British Medical Association 

SC 09 The City of London Police 

SC 10 Mothers’ Union 

SC 11  LGA and Dexter Dias QC 

SC 12 Ms Vanessa Bettinson 

SC 13 Live Nation 

SC 14 International Fund for Animal Welfare