6.17 pm
Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): I want to spend the short time I have focusing on the disproportionate effect these tax credit cuts will have on the black and minority ethnic communities. Some 88% of these communities are based in the poorest boroughs in the country. They tend to have larger families and these families are often sustained by people who have part-time jobs. Fresh from my Royal Statistical Society training this morning, let me give some statistics that are staggering. A recent survey found that 5% of white men had part-time jobs, as opposed to 12% of black African men and 35% of men of Bangladeshi origin. When this lifeline is taken away from these communities, racial inequality in our society will widen. When the Government talk about looking after families, they are not talking about looking after families from the BME communities.
We must also look at these cuts in context. We cannot view them in isolation. Hampstead and Kilburn has a housing bubble and rents are soaring higher than ever. If we couple that with taking away tax credits from people who are working, we have to ask how people will survive. Six out of 10 of my constituents are paying £288 a week for a studio flat. Are we allowing the ethnic cleansing of London? Don’t take these credits away. Join us in voting against these cuts; whether it is the Mayor of London, “ConservativeHome”, or The Sun, we must oppose these draconian measures.
6.18 pm
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab):
I rise to speak on behalf of the 12,800 working families and the 26,000 children across Ilford who will be affected by these cuts, and I issue the following challenge to Conservative Members. This evening’s vote is crucial for a simple reason: their Whips are busy in the other place telling peers they are railing against the democratic will of this House of Commons, but when we listen to the fantastic and courageous speech of the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) and see the nods of many of her colleagues, we know that the majority of Members in this House do not support these changes. Peers are absolutely within their rights to put a stop to them in the House of Lords, and we expect nothing less. What a terrible indictment it is of this Chamber that it is the unelected House that is standing
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up for the interests of ordinary working families up and down this country! What happened to the party of the workers? What happened to the Tories’ failed modernisation project? It is already dead in the water. This is a Prime Minister who speaks from the centre but is a prisoner of the right.
When we have a grand coalition ranging from The Sun newspaper to my good friend the cycling socialist Owen Jones telling us that this is a work penalty that will hit the people who work hard, who get up early and who strive to earn every penny they can, we know there is a problem. This is not a benefit; it is a well-targeted tax rebate. It works better than what the Government are doing with the tax threshold, because that benefits the wealthiest. Tax credits target support effectively to the people who are doing exactly what we ask them to do: they are willing to work hard for low pay and they play by the rules. The least we can do is support them.
This is a terrible measure. It is a shameful measure, and Conservative Members know it. I ask them to show the courage that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) showed, not only on the Floor of the House but in the voting Lobby this evening, because it is crucial that Members of the unelected House know that they have a majority of elected Members on their side and on the side of low-paid working people in Britain.
6.20 pm
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting). Once again, we have a Budget from this Chancellor that was very shiny on the day he presented it but that is unravelling under closer inspection. The Treasury Select Committee took evidence on a number of the issues that people have raised today, and I want to tell colleagues on both sides of the House what we found. First, on work incentives, which Conservative Members have made much of in the debate, the taper has moved from 41p to 48p, but the effective marginal tax rate for a lone parent will increase to 93%. That means that for every extra pound she earns, she will take home only 7p. Compare that with the banker who will take home 60p in every pound.
The second problem relates to the interaction between the tax credits and the minimum wage. Many hon. Members have spoken about the sequencing. The national minimum wage gains will not, in the main, go to the tax credit losers. Half the cash gains from the national minimum wage will go to people in the top half of the income distribution. Sir Stephen Nickell from the independent Office for Budget Responsibility told the Select Committee:
“It has been known for ages that the proportion of people in receipt of minimum wage who live in poor households is very small. It used to be 14%...In other words, minimum wage as a method of relieving poverty is completely hopeless because most people on the minimum wage do not live in poor households.”
I urge Conservative Members to look at the evidence and to think again.
6.22 pm
Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) on her excellent maiden speech.
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Prices have risen faster than wages during the vast majority of this Government’s time in office. Working people in Grimsby have seen their earnings fall by more than £2,700 since 2010. Today, one in three of my constituents earn less than the real living wage of £7.85 an hour. Grimsby desperately needs a pay rise, but what this Government are doing instead is cutting people’s incomes by at least another £1,300 a year. People simply cannot cope with a further reduction in their incomes.
The Government say that people simply need to work harder for a few more hours a week in order not to lose out, but for many, that is completely unrealistic. Many people in my constituency do not have that option; some are already working two or three jobs just to make up the hours. Conservative Members were given a mandate by their constituents based on their party’s manifesto and on what the Prime Minister said during the election campaign. They do not have a mandate to cut tax credits; in fact, they have a mandate not to cut them. What does it say about the regard in which Conservative Members hold the voters of this country if, just five months later, they walk through the Lobby and do precisely the opposite of what the Prime Minister promised?
The irony is that I agree with what Ministers have been saying: we do need a higher-wage economy, with less being paid out in welfare as a result. We need to support and help to grow the industries of the future, but the Government are doing the opposite. Three of the UK’s solar energy companies have entered administration in the past two weeks, the green deal has been scrapped and investor confidence in the wind energy sector is drying up. The Government have failed to make any real attempt to save the thousands of jobs being lost in the steel industry. That shows what is actually developing under the Conservatives: an economy in which more and more jobs pay less than the real living wage.
6.24 pm
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): As has been pointed out, this measure is very much part of the overall narrative of this Government. They have enthusiastically embraced both austerity measures that harm the poorest and the most vulnerable households in our constituencies while giving tax breaks to the better-off, and a series of ideological measures that can only increase inequality.
Scottish National party Members believe in progressive taxation, but these changes are not progressive. They are regressive, taking proportionately more from lower-income households than from rich ones. These changes will significantly reduce the incomes of more than 200,000 households in Scotland—that is 200,000 households where choices have to be made between eating and heating, and where families have to decide whether they will have to go to the food bank again this week. If the Government want to make cuts, I suggest they are made to the £100 billion being spent on Trident. If the Government want to make cuts, I suggest they do not increase tax breaks in respect of inheritance tax thresholds.
As the youngest of eight children to a widowed mother, I grew up in deep poverty—I know what it is like. I know what it does to aspiration and to motivation, and I know how corrosive it can be to every area of life. I suspect that if more Government Members had lived the life that I have lived, they would not be supporting
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this measure tonight. I do not want any child in Scotland to grow up in more poverty than they are already in. I do not want any child in the UK growing up in poverty. Far from the mantra of “making work pay”, this measure punishes the working poor. I ask the Government to consider the impact of this measure on our poorest families; they should consider the impact on our households and on our most vulnerable children. Anyone who truly believes in a fairer society must reject this measure. Anyone who supports this measure tonight should hang their head in shame.
6.26 pm
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): This measure is not just a penalty against work; it is also a penalty against parenthood. Clearly there is a divergence of view in this House. Conservative Members have a view about how policy should support family and children that is at complete variance with mine. We heard from the Chancellor on the day of the Budget that
“we on the Conservative Benches know that the wish to pass something on to your children is about the most basic, human and natural aspiration there is.”—[Official Report, 8 July 2015; Vol. 598, c. 330.]
Feeding children is an even more basic aspiration than that, as is nurturing children and giving them warmth when they need it. We are talking about somebody being able to aspire to work to bring home food to their children and support to their family. These are the people who are going to be hit by the measures the Conservatives are introducing, because it is the people working very hard and trying to do the best by their children and for their neighbours who will be betrayed by this measure.
I do not accept the nonsense we heard from Conservative Members, with some exceptions, who were more or less trying to tell us that low-paid workers should now be the acceptable casualties of a dogmatic imperative of austerity —they should not. Nor do I accept the somewhere-over-the-rainbow nonsense that some Conservative Members were giving us that, “It is all going to work out well. It will go so swimmingly and people are going to be so much better off when they see what they are going to get.” Clearly the way these measures have been brought forward will mean that people are going to suffer in the meantime. People will also lose jobs as well as lose income, because some of us are hearing from employers in some sectors that they will not be able to give the pay increases without doing damage to the payroll that they currently have.
Conservative Members need to realise that labels they put on this and all the clichés they come up with are not going to give buying power to the money they are leaving people with. Clichés will not be hard currency to support families who are being driven into poverty.
6.29 pm
Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab):
It has been astonishing to hear Conservative Members stick to their desperate defence of their indefensible policy of slashing tax credits for millions of families when they know that they are neither economically justifiable, nor socially defensible. These cuts are just one more example of the Government’s policy of moving public debt, which originated in the financial sector, off their books
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and on to the lowest-paid and middle earners, who simply cannot afford it. Rather than moving away from an economy based on debt, which the Chancellor said that he wanted to do, he has in fact created one.
Unlike this Government, I believe that economic common sense and social solidarity not only go hand in hand, but are the bedrock of a healthy and functioning society. We cannot have a healthy functioning economy if our fiscal policy is to transfer debt from the public purse on to the unemployed, the lowest paid and middle income individuals and families, and if secured debt becomes unsecured and unaffordable. The Chancellor should know where that leads because the Governor of the Bank of England has spelled it out for him.
Over the summer, Mark Carney warned that household debt was one reason why the recession was deep and the recovery so grudging. If enough people are highly indebted, that can have big macroeconomic impacts, so that lending standards become irresponsible to reckless. Those are some of the same risk factors that led to the global credit crunch in 2007. The structural flaws remain, but we now have one very clear difference. We have a Chancellor who is exacerbating the structural flaws by heaping public debt on to the low paid, and who acts without regard to the personal economic nightmare he is visiting on the homes of working families. That is why the Labour party is so fundamentally opposed to these measures.
An inclusive and healthy economy cannot be built while we are hurting working people. It can only be built by investing in them and supporting them. Our party believes in that to our soul, so while the Tory party spends millions on branding itself as the party of working people, those working people who have been let down by the Prime Minister will know that the Labour party is working for them.
6.31 pm
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): In my constituency, there are around 8,000 families with children claiming tax credits, 5,000 working families, and almost 10,000 children. We know from the Library briefing that they will lose more than £100 a month, but some families will lose more. One of my constituents, a mother with a disabled child, has worked out that her family will lose £200 a month from the tax credit cuts. Instead of just sitting there, perhaps Government Members can tell me how, if they back these changes, such families will manage? I do not think that they will manage. Another constituent, a single mother, told me that she uses tax credits to pay for school uniform, food and travel expenses. Those are the things that will suffer.
Earlier, I mentioned the impact that these tax credit cuts will have on the incomes of many thousands of unpaid carers who juggle care and work, particularly those who claim carer’s allowance and working tax credits. Carers UK told me that all carers who are claiming carer’s allowance and working tax credits will lose under the current proposals, even taking into account the introduction of the so-called national living wage.
Tax credit cuts will make it more difficult for working carers to balance work and care and that will hit their standard of living. They do not deserve that. Last week the Minister for Community and Social Care told me
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that he did not think that carers’ invaluable contribution to society had ever been better recognised. Is that hit to the income and living standard of working carers what he means by recognition? I hope the Minister will tell us when he responds what consideration the Government will now give to protecting working carers on low incomes from these unfair, savage tax credit cuts. Those cuts will hit families with disabled children. They will hit carers and millions of working people. I urge Government Members, the few who have managed to stay for this debate, to rethink this deeply unfair policy change.
6.32 pm
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): When tax credits were first brought in, people were often overpaid. They would then receive a demand for an end-of-year repayment. I fought many of those cases, but Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs would engineer the perfect excuse. Deep in its standard letter demanding repayments was this astonishing sentence:
“Even though we told you that your assessment was correct, it was not reasonable for you to believe it.”
That is how I view the Chancellor’s proposals—even though he tells me that there will not be any problems, it is not reasonable for me to believe him.
I have no problem in principle with removing low wage subsidies so long as we ensure a decent living wage; family support to make up for the variation in income when people have families of different sizes; proper affordable childcare provision available universally, particularly in deprived and rural areas, which are currently very poorly served; and support for small businesses to enable them to earn and to pay a living wage.
When tax credits were introduced, I asked the then Labour Treasury Minister what pilots had been carried out. Essentially, she said that none had been carried out. I fear that we are in that same position with these proposals. We know what happened then: chaos, over- payments, underpayments, misery to families and the damage to the Government’s reputation. The impact of these changes has not been thoroughly assessed, and I fear that we will all regret that at our leisure.
6.34 pm
Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): I know that this Government and this Chancellor in particular are fond of political cross-dressing, but robbing 6,500 children in 3,500 hard-working families in my constituency of £1,300 a year makes a mockery of all that—and that is in an affluent west London suburban constituency where the average property price is over £500,000. The Prime Minister pledged during the election campaign not to cut tax credits, but the fact that he is doing this only months after the election is not just a concern to the Opposition; it brings politics into disrepute.
We have heard about the so-called compensation that will come from the national living wage. It is not a living wage, and it is compensation for only 26% of people. Politicians like to go on about hard choices, but this is about whether to penalise people who are doing right and playing by the rules, or to give a tax cut to the 60,000 wealthiest estates at the expense of 200,000 working families. Some 6,500 families in Ealing Central and Acton are a chunk of 3 million families across the country.
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The fact that the notices informing them of the changes will arrive just before Christmas is deeply immoral. It shows the Scrooge-like attitude of this Government.
I have had dozens of emails about the cuts, both around the time of the emergency, that is the crisis, budget and now. I urge Members in suburban London seats like mine—the Comptroller of Her Majesty's Household, the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell), the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), whom I can see, and the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr Mathias), constituencies where those affected by the change outweigh the majority that those Members have—to join us in the Lobby tonight.
6.36 pm
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab): The 2015 Conservative manifesto promised to improve the lives of the millions
“who work hard, raise their families, care for those who need help, who do the right thing”.
The tax credit changes will do exactly the opposite and instead penalise them heavily. There is no hiding from that. This is not the right thing. Why do the Government not accuse all people on tax credits of being feckless? That is what they really think. They do not bother even to make an artificial distinction between the deserving and undeserving poor. They do not care. If people are poor, deserving or otherwise, they do not care.
From what I can see, that is what those on the Government Benches think. They want urgent action to tackle the burden of tax credit expenditure, but take a mañana approach to tackling the issue of low pay. Some Conservative Members have expressed concern, but that is as far as it goes. Hand wringing, tutting, head shaking—conscience salved. But Conservative Members will be reminded time and again of their support for these proposals. It might get a bit tedious, but so be it.
The Chancellor says the changes are fair, so let me give a few facts. Facts can be stubborn. First, during this Parliament cumulative income loss will be between £6,000 and £9,500. Secondly, 3.2 million hard-working families will be hit. Thirdly, the changes will mean less pay, with some low income families keeping just 3p of every extra pound. Fourthly, child poverty will increase. Fifthly, the cuts are not compensated by other changes and have not been impact assessed. This is dreadful and the Government should think again.
6.38 pm
Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab): Hon. Members should be aware that it is a disgraceful, shameful example of very poor governance when a Government attempt to cut £4.4 billion from the poorest people in society by a statutory instrument. It has taken the Opposition to call for this debate and to ask for the reversal of this decision.
Areas of my constituency have been recorded as suffering from the highest levels of employment deprivation and the sixth highest income deprivation affecting children in England. My constituency has some 7,900 families with children claiming tax credits, and many are unemployed. Some 5,800 working families claim tax credits. Many of those are on the minimum wage, with two parents working and two children. They are set to lose more than £1,800 next year and £7,700 over the life of this Parliament.
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Other families with one earner will lose more than £1,500 a year, or more than £7,000 over the life of this Parliament. Some 4,800 working families with children in my constituency claim tax credits, and 8,300 children in those working families benefit as a result. Many of the schools in my constituency have been forced to introduce free breakfast provision, with hundreds of children taking it up. They have done so to improve levels of concentration and learning. If our children are to get out of poverty, they need to be educated, but first they need full stomachs.
I call on Conservative Members to examine their consciences and not to involve themselves in this further attack on the poorest people in society.
6.40 pm
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP): I have some basic points to make, because so much has already been said in this debate. Constituents of mine have urged me to speak today because of the poverty they are now experiencing. They are having to go to food banks in order to feed their children, and they feel ashamed about that. They are working extremely hard to make ends meet every day, working for every penny, yet they feel that they are being punished by this Government.
I urge Conservative Members please to consider the impact that these changes will have on hard-working families, those that the Government say they are responsive to and care about. That is absolutely imperative, not just for my constituents but for people across the UK. These tax credit cuts are unfair to hard-working families in Scotland and across the UK. I urge Conservative Members to listen to everybody’s views tonight, take account of their constituents, who I am sure are hurting just as much as ours, and pay attention when we speak about these crucial issues that our constituents are informing us about.
We really must take account of those who are trying their hardest to get on that first rung of life and to protect their families and those nearest and dearest. I therefore urge the Government to vote against this measure by supporting the motion and ensure that the most vulnerable in our society, including the disabled, are protected.
6.42 pm
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): We have heard from more than 50 Members in this extraordinary debate, which I think is a measure of how vital it has been, and how much we need to understand properly the full impact of the changes that the Government are proposing. Running through so many of the speeches has been the message that politics is always about choices: what are we going to prioritise; who are we going to stand up for; and what, as the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) said in her brave and heartfelt speech, do we stand for? This debate has laid bare those fundamental choices.
The simple question that the Government must face tonight, and the simple question that will be asked right across Britain, is this: is the Conservative party what it says it is? Is it a party for the workers, with the interests of the workers at its heart, or is it a party that has its own self-interest at its heart and that is set tonight to dock the pay of workers across Britain? It cannot be
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both—even this most Janus-faced of Governments cannot turn both ways at once. It cannot be the party of workers while cutting workers’ pay. Each Conservative Member will need to answer for how they vote this evening, because there is no plausible defence for a policy that will take, on average, £1,300 from the pockets of working families, and with 70% of the losses falling on working mothers. It is a Tory tax on workers, and a Tory tax on working mums.
How do the Government justify that? As we have heard from successive speakers today, they say that the tax credits bill has gone up and that it has to be cut. Well, it has gone up on the Tories’ watch. They say that the minimum wage increase will compensate, but let us have none of this nonsense about a bogus living wage.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Hands): Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that under the previous Labour Government the tax credit bill went up from £10 billion to some £30 billion and is now down to £25 billion, so I am afraid that it has not gone up on our watch. [Interruption.]
Owen Smith: I have heard this several times over the past few weeks—[Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I presume that Conservative Members would want to hear their own Front Bencher, and I am sure that the rest of us would like to hear the Labour Front Bencher now.
Owen Smith: I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I have heard this nonsense from the Government several times; I heard it from the Exchequer Secretary earlier today. The truth is that when this variation of tax and child credits came in in 2003-04, the original bill was £19 billion. It went up to about £23 billion under Labour, and then in 2009, after the crash, it went up to £29 billion. Under the Chief Secretary’s Government, it has been £30 billion each year, so the largest bill we have paid for tax credits has been under the Tories. Why is that? It is because the low-welfare, low-tax, high-wage economy that he talks about is a myth—the Tories have failed to deliver it. Instead, we have a tax credit system that is a vital lifeline for working people on low and middle incomes who have relied on it to make ends meet over the past few years and still rely on it. The Tories will be pulling the rug out from under those people if they persist with this policy tonight. They know that none of the measures they have talked about—the personal income tax rise or the childcare provision—will offset the vast losses we have seen. It is an absolute con, just as it was a con from the Prime Minister when he told the country that he was not going to cut any tax credits.
I would like to be able to point to a Government impact assessment that would tell us the truth of this, but it is so thin it is barely worth mentioning. It is about as useful and reliable as a Volkswagen engine test. However, we have not needed an assessment because we have had one from the Chief Secretary’s own Back Benchers. Successive Back Benchers have stood up today and offered their view—their impact assessment—of what this Government are going to do to our constituents,
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and to Conservative constituents, across this country. I referred earlier to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen), who made a scintillating speech. I will quote a few words for the delectation of the Chief Secretary. She said that these measures were “betraying who we are”—that is, who the Conservatives are. She said that they would lead to working people having to choose between heating and eating.
The hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer) gave another excellent speech in which he said that his blue-collar city opposes these reforms. He pleaded with his Front Benchers, as a compassionate Conservative, to think again. The hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) talked about the impact we would see on carers and on people on low incomes. The hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) said that as a one-nation Conservative he could not support these reforms without significant mitigation. We heard interventions from the hon. Members for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). Those are just some of the Conservative Members who are opposed to these measures.
Greg Hands: The hon. Gentleman has not mentioned the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), the Chairman of the Select Committee, who called on his own hon. Friends to take more action on the £4.4 billion savings gap that has arisen as a result of Labour deciding that it is against these reforms.
Owen Smith: Let me start with that number of 4.4 billion, because about 4.4 thousand of the Chief Secretary’s constituents will be hit by these changes. The real question he should be answering is what he says to his constituents about the cut they are going to have. He mentions my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), who of course spoke with great eloquence and knowledge. The crucial thing he said was, “Think again. Mitigate these measures. Understand that your mitigation measures are not going to work or offset the losses.”
Frank Field: What I said in my speech was that I hoped we would soon be able to debate a motion of the House, and that is what will happen when we have a full day’s debate on Thursday week. I also said that that is when we should make proposals for how to pay for it. I did not say we should do that in today’s debate.
Owen Smith: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his eloquent intervention. He reports accurately his own words, even if the Chief Secretary did not.
Let me be clear: tonight’s vote may not be a binding vote, but it does allow Members on both sides of the House to send a message to Conservative Front Benchers. These measures are a tax on working people.
The Government say that the national minimum wage increase, welcome though it is, will offset the changes, but it will not for a cleaner who is on £13,500, who will lose £7,000 over the term of this Parliament, or for a secretary with two children who is on £22,000, who will lose £9,500. Those are not small sums of money; for those people on low and middle incomes, they are enormous sums of money. It ill becomes the Government to dismiss, with the stroke of a pen, the concerns not only of their own Back Benchers, but of this country’s ordinary working people.
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Too many Labour Members—far too many for me to list them all—have spoken today with great passion and conviction about their knowledge of their constituencies, the contents of their postbags and how the proposal will affect their people. The Government should read their speeches and listen carefully to the views of Members.
It is not just the Opposition who oppose the proposal. The Mayor of London—the hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson)—and the bloke who is going to fail to succeed him on behalf of the Tories are both opposed to it. For heaven’s sake, even the Bow Group—I thought it had disappeared in 1980, before the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) was Chancellor of the Exchequer—says that the proposal represents a crisis for entrepreneurial Britain and that it will hit the self-employed. The Adam Smith Institute, the Murdoch press and, from what I have seen, most Tory Back Benchers are also opposed to it.
I urge the Government to think again; to look to their conscience and understand the damage they are going to do to the working people of this country; and to please vote with us tonight and offer some solutions in the forthcoming autumn statement.
6.52 pm
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Hands): We have had a heated debate, with a great deal of misinformation from Opposition Members. Time is very short.
There are two principal reasons for reforming tax credits. First, they no longer meet the objectives for which they were originally designed. Secondly, they are unaffordable at their present level.
Greg Hands: I will not be giving way for a while.
Tax credits were introduced to help those on the very lowest incomes—a noble aim and one that we support—but the system spiralled out of control. Spending on tax credits more than trebled in real terms under Labour. By 2010, nine in 10 families with children, including MPs, were eligible for tax credits. Even now, the figure is six in 10, and the latest reforms will bring it down to five in 10.
It is not even as if Labour’s spending worked: following the introduction of tax credits, in-work poverty rose by some 20%. Members need not take just my word for that; I am going to quote in detail Alistair Darling, who has been referred to this evening and who was one of my predecessors as Chief Secretary at a time when the modern tax credit system was being planned. He was interviewed this summer for an article in The Spectator entitled, “Alistair Darling: why I changed my mind on tax credits”. Crucially, it appeared after the summer Budget introduced by the Chancellor. The Spectator asked him:
“So your tax credits had the unintended consequence of keeping low wages down?”
“Undoubtedly,” replied Darling. The last Labour Chancellor said:
“Well, undoubtedly… I think it was a good policy when it was introduced”.
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“As Keynes famously said: when the facts change, you change your mind.”
Owen Smith: I am really enjoying the Chief Secretary reading excerpts from The Spectator, but will he answer the fundamental question? Will he confirm that 3 million people in this country will be £1,300 on average worse off as a result of these changes? Let us not hear about the past; he should tell us about the future.
Greg Hands: I can confirm that we have got down the cost per household of the budget deficit from about £6,000 per household per annum to about £3,500 per household per annum. Those sort of figures show what reforms we are introducing.
Jess Phillips: Will the Minister give way?
Greg Hands: I will not give way at the moment.
“One of the unintended consequences is that we are now subsidising lower wages in a way that was never intended.”
Like us, he was not calling for the end of tax credits. He made it clear:
“That is not an argument for scrapping tax credits, it is an argument for making sure that you adjust the system. And it’s also an argument for making sure that we do our level best to drive up those levels of wages”.
The second reason is that the deficit the Government inherited in 2010 was equivalent to about £6,000 for every household in the country. That was being added to the national debt every year. It is now down to £3,300 per annum. Then, we were borrowing £1 for every £4 we spent. We have got that down to £1 for every £10. The world was beginning to doubt our ability to pay our way.
Ian Blackford: Will the Minister give way?
Greg Hands: I will not give way.
This Government’s mandate is to get our spending down, run a surplus and get our national debt down, and these reforms are a crucial part of that. That is what we were elected to do, and that is what the House agreed just last week. In particular, our general election mandate is to make reforms to reduce the welfare bill by £12 billion.
Owen Smith: Will the Chief Secretary give way?
Greg Hands: I am not giving way further. [Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am struggling to hear the Minister. I wish to hear what the Minister has to say. Has the Minister given way?
Greg Hands: No, I am not giving way. I have just said I was not giving way. [Interruption.] I gave way to the hon. Gentleman as well.
Our reforms to tax credits will account for £4.4 billion in the next financial year. This is the key question for the Opposition, which they have ducked during the last
20 Oct 2015 : Column 923
five hours of debate: if they do not want to reform tax credits, where will that money come from? Will they borrow more and saddle our children with still higher debt, or will they cut other services, such as schools or the NHS? I ask the Opposition: what would they do?
Clive Efford: Will the Minister give way?
Greg Hands: I am not going to give way. I thank my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who told us:
“This is the time to do it”.
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Mr Deputy Speaker: I will hear that later.
Greg Hands: I thank my colleagues from across the country for their thoughtful speeches.
In conclusion, the reforms must be considered as part of a package—the tax credit reforms, the big rise in the personal allowance and a £9 an hour national living wage by the end of this Parliament. The changes we are putting in place will deliver a new settlement for working people, one where they keep more of the money they have earned, where work pays and where employers pay decent wages without requiring them to be topped up by the state. Under Labour, tax credit spending doubled; we are bringing it back to the spending levels of 2007-08.
These reforms are necessary and fair, and will deliver a lasting settlement. I urge Members to vote—
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Main Question accordingly put.
The House divided:
Ayes 295, Noes 317.
Division No. 80]
[
6.59 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ahmed-Sheikh, Ms Tasmina
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Arkless, Richard
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Bardell, Hannah
Barron, rh Kevin
Beckett, rh Margaret
Benn, rh Hilary
Berger, Luciana
Betts, Mr Clive
Black, Mhairi
Blackford, Ian
Blackman, Kirsty
Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brake, rh Tom
Brennan, Kevin
Brock, Deidre
Brown, Alan
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Dawn
Byrne, rh Liam
Cadbury, Ruth
Cameron, Dr Lisa
Campbell, rh Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Gregory
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Champion, Sarah
Chapman, Douglas
Chapman, Jenny
Cherry, Joanna
Clegg, rh Mr Nick
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cooper, Julie
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cowan, Ronnie
Cox, Jo
Coyle, Neil
Crausby, Mr David
Crawley, Angela
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Dakin, Nic
Danczuk, Simon
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint
Day, Martyn
De Piero, Gloria
Docherty, Martin John
Dodds, rh Mr Nigel
Donaldson, Stuart Blair
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Dowd, Peter
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Efford, Clive
Elliott, Julie
Elliott, Tom
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Fellows, Marion
Ferrier, Margaret
Field, rh Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Fletcher, Colleen
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Foxcroft, Vicky
Gardiner, Barry
Gethins, Stephen
Gibson, Patricia
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goodman, Helen
Grady, Patrick
Grant, Peter
Gray, Neil
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Margaret
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Haigh, Louise
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Carolyn
Hayes, Helen
Hayman, Sue
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr Mark
Hendry, Drew
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hermon, Lady
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Dame Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollern, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Huq, Dr Rupa
Hussain, Imran
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, rh Alan
Jones, Gerald
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Kane, Mike
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Kerevan, George
Kerr, Calum
Khan, rh Sadiq
Kinnock, Stephen
Kyle, Peter
Lamb, rh Norman
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Law, Chris
Leslie, Chris
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
Lewis, Clive
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Long Bailey, Rebecca
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian C.
Lynch, Holly
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, rh Fiona
Madders, Justin
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr Gordon
Maskell, Rachael
Matheson, Christian
Mc Nally, John
McCabe, Steve
McCaig, Callum
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonald, Andy
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
McDonald, Stuart C.
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGarry, Natalie
McGinn, Conor
McGovern, Alison
McInnes, Liz
McKinnell, Catherine
McLaughlin, Anne
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Miliband, rh Edward
Monaghan, Carol
Monaghan, Dr Paul
Moon, Mrs Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morris, Grahame M.
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Roger
Murray, Ian
Nandy, Lisa
Newlands, Gavin
Nicolson, John
O'Hara, Brendan
Onn, Melanie
Onwurah, Chi
Osamor, Kate
Oswald, Kirsten
Owen, Albert
Paterson, Steven
Pearce, Teresa
Pennycook, Matthew
Perkins, Toby
Phillips, Jess
Phillipson, Bridget
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Lucy
Pugh, John
Qureshi, Yasmin
Rayner, Angela
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reed, Mr Steve
Rees, Christina
Reeves, Rachel
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Rimmer, Marie
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, rh Angus
Robinson, Gavin
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Salmond, rh Alex
Saville Roberts, Liz
Shah, Naz
Shannon, Jim
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheppard, Tommy
Sherriff, Paula
Shuker, Mr Gavin
Siddiq, Tulip
Simpson, David
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Andy
Smeeth, Ruth
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Cat
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Smyth, Karin
Spellar, rh Mr John
Starmer, Keir
Stephens, Chris
Stevens, Jo
Streeting, Wes
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, rh Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Thewliss, Alison
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Thompson, Owen
Thomson, Michelle
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turley, Anna
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Twigg, Stephen
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Weir, Mike
West, Catherine
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Whitford, Dr Philippa
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr Mark
Wilson, Corri
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woodcock, John
Wright, Mr Iain
Zeichner, Daniel
Tellers for the Ayes:
Jeff Smith
and
Judith Cummins
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Allan, Lucy
Allen, Heidi
Amess, Sir David
Andrew, Stuart
Ansell, Caroline
Argar, Edward
Atkins, Victoria
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Mr Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Berry, James
Bingham, Andrew
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Blunt, Crispin
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Borwick, Victoria
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, rh James
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Robert
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Sir Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, rh Alistair
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Carmichael, Neil
Carswell, Mr Douglas
Cartlidge, James
Cash, Sir William
Caulfield, Maria
Chalk, Alex
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Churchill, Jo
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Cleverly, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Costa, Alberto
Crabb, rh Stephen
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Byron
Davies, Chris
Davies, David T. C.
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Dr James
Davies, Mims
Davies, Philip
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Donelan, Michelle
Double, Steve
Dowden, Oliver
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Drummond, Mrs Flick
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evennett, rh Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Fernandes, Suella
Field, rh Mark
Foster, Kevin
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Frazer, Lucy
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Fysh, Marcus
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, rh Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Ghani, Nusrat
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, rh Robert
Hall, Luke
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, rh Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heappey, James
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Heaton-Jones, Peter
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoare, Simon
Hollingbery, George
Hollinrake, Kevin
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Howlett, Ben
Huddleston, Nigel
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Javid, rh Sajid
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenkyns, Andrea
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Boris
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kennedy, Seema
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Sir Greg
Knight, Julian
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Leigh, Sir Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Mackinlay, Craig
Mackintosh, David
Main, Mrs Anne
Mak, Mr Alan
Malthouse, Kit
Mann, Scott
Mathias, Dr Tania
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Johnny
Merriman, Huw
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Milling, Amanda
Mills, Nigel
Milton, rh Anne
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Morton, Wendy
Mowat, David
Mundell, rh David
Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Opperman, Guy
Osborne, rh Mr George
Parish, Neil
Patel, rh Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Philp, Chris
Pickles, rh Sir Eric
Pincher, Christopher
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Pow, Rebecca
Prentis, Victoria
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pursglove, Tom
Quin, Jeremy
Quince, Will
Raab, Mr Dominic
Redwood, rh John
Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Mary
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, rh Amber
Rutley, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Scully, Paul
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, rh Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Royston
Soames, rh Sir Nicholas
Solloway, Amanda
Soubry, rh Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stuart, Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Sunak, Rishi
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Thomas, Derek
Throup, Maggie
Timpson, Edward
Tolhurst, Kelly
Tomlinson, Justin
Tomlinson, Michael
Tracey, Craig
Tredinnick, David
Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Tugendhat, Tom
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, rh Mr Andrew
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Warburton, David
Warman, Matt
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Wharton, James
Whately, Helen
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Craig
Williamson, rh Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wood, Mike
Wragg, William
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Mel Stride
and
Sarah Newton
Question accordingly negatived.
20 Oct 2015 : Column 924
20 Oct 2015 : Column 925
20 Oct 2015 : Column 926
20 Oct 2015 : Column 927
20 Oct 2015 : Column 928
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was wondering whether it was disorderly or simply discourteous that in his winding-up speech the Chief Secretary to the Treasury neglected to congratulate the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Heidi Allen) on her maiden speech.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): If that was the case, I am sure it was not deliberate. No hon. Member would miss out a maiden speech.
Business without Debate
Delegated Legislation
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 3 and 4 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Modern Slavery
That the draft Modern Slavery Act 2015 (Transparency in Supply Chains) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 7 September, be approved.
International Development
That the draft Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (Initial Capital Contribution) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 7 September, be approved.—(Margot James.)
Business of the House
That, at the sitting on Thursday 22 October, the Speaker shall put the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion in the name of Chris Grayling relating to Standing Orders (Public business) not later than 4.00pm; such questions shall include the questions on any amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; proceedings may continue, though opposed, after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Margot James.)
Mr Deputy Speaker: We now come to the Adjournment debate. May we please have fewer conversations, and will Members quickly clear the Chamber?
20 Oct 2015 : Column 929
Cosmetic Surgery
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Margot James.)
7.15 pm
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I would like to raise the case of my constituent, Mrs Dawn Knight, who lives in Kip Hill in my constituency. Mrs Knight is one of the 45,000 people in the UK who undergo cosmetic surgery each year. In 2012, she underwent a cosmetic procedure on her eyes. The operation was arranged by a company called The Hospital Group and the surgery was done by an Italian doctor called Arnaldo Paganelli. During the surgery, he removed too much skin from her lower eye lids, and as a result, the inner parts of her eyes, usually covered, are now exposed to the air. Following this botched surgery, she must now apply artificial teardrops into her eyes every two hours to minimise the pain. On the advice of specialists at the Royal Victoria infirmary in Newcastle, she must also tape her left eye closed every night when she goes to sleep to avoid further damage. While she sleeps, she must apply a thick ointment in both eyes, leaving her unable to see until it is washed out in the morning. Doctors have warned her that this serious condition might result in loss of sight altogether.
This incompetent procedure has left Mrs Knight with serious health problems and a life-changing condition, but her troubles did not cease there. A fight to get the mistake corrected and compensation for her distress have thrown up major questions about the operation of The Hospital Group and the regulation of cosmetic surgery in the UK. The Hospital Group’s website claims to run the world’s largest plastic surgery facility at its private hospital in Birmingham. It also claims to have General Medical Council-registered surgeons. Anyone looking at its adverts or website will conclude that it is running a hospital similar to a local NHS hospital, but it is not. As Mrs Knight found when she complained, she had entered into a contract not with The Hospital Group but directly with Dr Paganelli.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Last Wednesday in Parliament, there was a public meeting at which constituents from across the UK registered their concerns about cosmetic surgery, particularly eye operations. Many people have found themselves in a similar position to Mrs Knight. Last year, 100,000 cosmetic surgery operations were performed in the UK. Is it not time for full and robust regulation to monitor and reflect the risk attached to all cosmetic surgery?
Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. This is not just about Mrs Knight; it is about many more such cases, and I will be talking later about exactly the need for more regulation and information in this area.
Although The Hospital Group tries to give the impression it is a hospital, it is, in effect, a facilities, management and brokerage company for individuals wishing to undergo cosmetic procedures. The Hospital Group is very good at self-promotion. It even has celebrity endorsements from individuals such as Kerry Katona. I think the celebrities who appear on the website need to examine their consciences about being associated with this
20 Oct 2015 : Column 930
organisation. Clearly, their endorsements are encouraging young people to undergo these procedures, forcing people into the hands of a company that I think is, frankly, completely irresponsible. The sale of after-care packages is emphasised. In Mrs Knight’s case, hers cost £3,500, but she found that this means nothing when things go wrong. It would appear that once The Hospital Group has people’s money, it is not much interested if things go wrong.
Having tried to pursue a case against The Hospital Group, Mrs Knight then tried to pursue Dr Paganelli for redress, only to find that he is bankrupt, lives in Italy and flies into the UK to operate on behalf of The Hospital Group. What astounds me is that he is still doing this today, working in hospitals or clinics that are run by The Hospital Group, as we speak. The Hospital Group’s response is that it is nothing to do with them. Dr Paganelli was uninsured and The Hospital Group says that it is the patient’s responsibility to check whether the surgeon is General Medical Council-registered and holds insurance. If we look on the website today, however, we find the words:
“Book a free consultation today, with our GMC registered surgeons!”,
giving the impression that all the surgeons have been vetted by this organisation when that is clearly not the case. Despite this, Dr Paganelli remains licensed by the GMC, meaning that he is deemed fit and suitable to continue to operate in this country, even though he holds no insurance and if things go wrong, patients have no redress against him.
Having examined this case and the others to which the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred, it would appear that a plumber who comes to fix someone’s kitchen sink is more heavily regulated than someone who is allowed to operate on your body. The current law allows any qualified doctor—not just surgeons—to perform cosmetic surgery, without having additional training or qualifications. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) has raised many issues about GPs who have undertaken cosmetic surgery without any formal training. Clearly, there needs to be more robust regulation of these private companies, which stand to make a fortune out of the misery experienced by people such as my constituent Mrs Knight.
The Royal College of Surgeons believes that the GMC needs to be given new legal powers formally to recognise additional qualifications or credentials, and I fully support that call. These should be displayed publicly so that people know that the doctors are properly registered and have gone through the necessary training. Will this solve malpractice and eradicate the problem of cosmetic surgery overnight? No, it will not, but it will at least ensure that some type of regulation is in place. It would be an important and significant start, and it would allow patients and employers such as The Hospital Group to tell competent cosmetic surgeons from cowboys, or indeed from anyone who has limited or no recognised experience in cosmetic procedures.
There has not been inaction in this area. Legislation was drafted by the Law Commission at the request of the Department of Health in 2014, following Sir Bruce Keogh’s recommendations in the wake of the PIP scandal. The coalition Government failed to find the parliamentary time to take it forward in 2014. You will remember, Mr Deputy Speaker, that at that time the Order Paper
20 Oct 2015 : Column 931
was not exactly overflowing with legislation, so we need to answer the question why this was not brought forward. Both the RCS and the GMC are keen to bring in these changes. Again, the Government have failed to include such legislation in the Queen’s Speech. I ask the Minister to explain why that is the case, and when the Government intend to introduce such legislation. As I have said, it would have the support of both the Royal College of Surgeons and the General Medical Council, but it would also have cross-party support in the House.
May I also ask the Minister about the cost to the NHS? In Mrs Knight’s case, the cost of putting right the mistakes made by Dr Paganelli will have to be picked up by the NHS. As the hon. Member for Strangford said, this affects a large number of people, and the NHS is having to treat them at great expense because of the actions of organisations such as The Hospital Group and individuals such as Dr Paganelli. Is it right for the taxpayer to pick up the bill while those organisations and individuals are making absolute fortunes out of people’s misery? I do not think it is. We need to look into how the NHS can recover the cost of the treatment that Mrs Knight and others are undergoing at the taxpayer’s expense.
Jim Shannon: Some of the people who were at the meeting on Wednesday told horrifying stories about the ways in which in which the surgery had affected them. Some of them had partially lost their eyesight. There was the depression, there was the trauma, and there were all the other side effects of what had happened to them. Despite all that, however, some of the people who carried out those operations continue to perform this surgery. People are experiencing life-changing medical conditions. Something must be done, and perhaps the Minister needs to tell us that tonight.
Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman has made a very good point. It is not just a question of the initial cost. Some people will need lifelong treatment, which will be very expensive for the taxpayer. I think that there should be a mechanism enabling the taxpayer to recover some of the cost from private companies and individuals when things go wrong.
I am also concerned about the issue of regulation. These organisations produce a great many glossy brochures, set up websites and have celebrity endorsements, but it is clear that some of the people who undergo cosmetic surgery need counselling beforehand, and there is no legal or other requirement to ensure that they receive it. Surgery that may be seen as life-changing—and, in some cases, is, for the wrong reasons—may also not be appropriate for some of those involved. They are mainly women, but, according to various reports that I have read, an increasing number of men are undergoing these procedures. They are not right for everyone, and I think that counselling and advice should be a key part of the process before anyone is convinced about going under the knife. The companies involved clearly exert a great deal of pressure to ensure that a steady flow of people enables them to make the money that they do make.
Let me finally ask the Minister about The Hospital Group itself. It gives the impression that it is a hospital group providing healthcare services, but it is clear that it
20 Oct 2015 : Column 932
is actually a facilities management company brokering details between patient and surgeon. Its material is very misleading. For instance, its website deliberately states that its surgeons are GMC-registered. It even refers to the Care Quality Commission as though that gave it the stamp of approval, and provided some type of guarantee. A misleading impression is being given.
I ask the Minister to examine the way in which The Hospital Group in particular, but other groups as well, uses terminology. I think that the average man or woman in the street may get the wrong impression from the CQC symbol or the reference to the GMC registration. The fact that when things go wrong they find that The Hospital Group wants nothing to do with it, and it is up to them to decide what to do, is another matter. That is not the impression given by the misleading publicity—deliberately so, I think—that is put out.
My constituent’s case is one of many that have highlighted the need for regulation. The legislation is there and we should press forward as a matter of urgency because if we do not more people will suffer. If there is one thing that my constituent, Mrs Knight, wants, it is that other people should avoid the awful experiences that she has gone through because of the negligence and greed for profit of both The Hospital Group and Dr Paganelli.
7.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer): I thank the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)for securing this debate on what is clearly an extremely distressing case for his constituent and an unfortunate one more generally. I want to pick up on the specific issues he raised to do with his constituent’s case before talking about the generality of the regulation of cosmetic surgery.
The hon. Gentleman pointed out the failure of his constituent’s doctor to have insurance and he will be pleased to know that, as of July 2014, new legislation required all surgeons providing cosmetic interventions to provide insurance and proper cover. A failure to do so would render them liable to undergo the fitness to practise tests conducted by the GMC. Those doctors operating outside the UK but in the EU who would have a temporary ability to operate in this country under the directive on mutual recognition of professional qualifications would still, under GMC regulations, be required to provide evidence of insurance cover. That legislation was brought into effect in August, which was clearly too late in the case of his constituent.
Mr Kevan Jones: Will the Minister look specifically into the case of Dr Paganelli, as I understand that he is still practising in this country?
Ben Gummer: I will certainly look into that case, as it does not sound right. I cannot trespass on the realms of the GMC, but I will inquire into the specific case outlined by the hon. Gentleman.
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point about the cost to the NHS and this is not the only area in which we have considered and continue to consider cost recovery for the NHS. It can be difficult as sometimes the cost of legal action outweighs the cost of recovery and it is not something that the service is used to doing. I am keen to
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explore it further, but in the context of the action we are taking, which I shall come on to, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will understand the need to take this bit by bit so that we get the process right. In principle, I certainly agree that if organisations cause a cost to fall on the NHS, as in this case, there is a good argument for seeing whether that cost can be recovered.
That takes me on to another part of the hon. Gentleman’s speech that was particularly striking, about the celebrity endorsements in this case. It is not for me to make policy announcements in an Adjournment debate, nor would I want to in the case of celebrity endorsements, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that people should think carefully about how they endorse cosmetic surgery. It is a serious intervention and if anyone seeks to glamorise something to which careful thought should be given, people and the organisations using those endorsements should treat them with extreme care.
I would point the organisation that the hon. Gentleman is dealing with and everyone else towards the code of conduct in advertising, the Committee of Advertising Practice and the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice, which drew up guidance in October 2013, especially on protecting children and young people. I think it would be appropriate to make sure the organisation of which he speaks is complying with the spirit as well as the letter of that guidance, and if not I will certainly help him to ask whether anything more can be done on that.
The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of counselling. Any reputable organisation should seek to ensure that people undertake procedures only when they need to do so and have been properly counselled on the consequences of their actions so that they can make an informed decision. The Government believe that that should happen in every case for cosmetic surgery. There should be an informed decision, taken with serious thought.
Finally, on the issues to do with The Hospital Group the hon. Gentleman raised, I cannot speak without further advice, but there clearly seem to be questions about trading standards, which he raised. I hope that I and my officials will be able to meet him to look carefully at this case, to make sure if The Hospital Group is misrepresenting its position apropos its surgeons and those it seeks to represent, it is not besmirching an industry which more widely does take its duties and the way it represents itself seriously.
Jim Shannon: The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has raised a topical issue of which we are all aware. Many people have had botched operations. Has the Minister’s Department been able to quantify how many? Optimax was one of the groups involved with a lot of the operations for laser surgery. People thought that was safe, but it was obviously not safe for all. Has the Department been able to quantify the numbers and therefore take action?
Ben Gummer: I am afraid I do not have an answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, but I will make sure we write to him if such figures exist, although I suspect they may not. Let me inquire, and then I shall reply to his question.
Let me turn to the broader policy issues to which the hon. Member for North Durham referred. He referred to Sir Bruce Keogh’s review. It began in January 2012
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after the PIP breast implant scandal. It covered the rapidly growing non-surgical cosmetic market. He published that review in 2013 and it highlighted the rapid growth of cosmetic interventions, and suggested safeguards among 40 recommendations to protect patients. The aim of those was to improve how surgical and non-surgical interventions were done, to set standards for training practitioners and surgeons and for how supervision from regulated healthcare professionals can support self-regulation of the industry, and to improve the quality of the information clients have to ensure they are able to make informed decisions about their treatment. The Government published their response in 2014.
By the time of the publication the Government had already started work on a number of the recommendations. To address the issue of proper training for cosmetic practitioners, the Royal College of Surgeons set up an inter- specialty committee with representation from the relevant specialty associations and professional organisations including plastic surgery, ear nose and throat, oral and maxillofacial surgery, breast surgery, urology, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Ophthalmologists, the General Medical Council and the Care Quality Commission. The committee also includes patient and provider representation, and representatives from the devolved Administrations are invited as observers.
The committee established three sub-groups which are taking forward the work to implement the recommendations. They cover standards for training and certification, clinical quality and outcomes, and patient information. The committee is also in the process of developing an overarching framework for certification to improve the safety and delivery of cosmetic surgery. Individuals performing cosmetic surgery will be expected to practise within their field of specialty training. The framework for certification takes into account equivalence for non-UK-based surgeons.
Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): I thank the Minister for giving way, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for bringing this important debate to the Chamber. PIP has been mentioned, along with the regulations that are in place in this country. I want to ask how we need to work with our European neighbours to ensure that we get the regulation right. We have heard about doctors coming from Italy to practise in this country, for example, and we know how PIP, which started in France, has impacted on patients in the UK. What work is the Minister doing to ensure that we co-operate across Europe to close any loopholes in this area?
Ben Gummer: The hon. Lady has touched on a complicated and diverse subject. I will happily talk to her when we have more time about what the Department is doing and what we are doing within the European Union to ensure the transferability of qualifications. A considerable amount of work is being done, and the GMC has tightened up a whole number of areas to ensure that we allow only the highest quality of practice in this country, while allowing people to travel through the European Union to practise using their qualifications.
I want to turn now to training for non-surgical interventions. We asked Health Education England to develop a new qualification framework for providers of
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non-surgical cosmetic interventions, and for those required to be responsible prescribers, that could apply to all practitioners regardless of previous training and professional background. Health Education England has now completed its review of the qualification requirements and will publish its recommendations shortly.
The issue of breast implants initiated the review by Sir Bruce Keogh. The review placed particular importance on systems that can precisely identify the complete cohort of patients in which a specific implant has been used. It recognised that being able to monitor the device implementation and performance for clinical outcomes and tracing of patients at risk of device failure was an important safety issue. There has been a range of responses, involving the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, the Health and Social Care Information Centre, the Committee of Advertising Practice and the Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice, and a whole series of recommendations has been enacted following the review.
Turning to legislation, we know that there are examples of high-quality surgical and non-surgical intervention, as I am sure the hon. Member for North Durham would agree, and it is those standards that we must make universal. I am aware of the arguments in favour of legislation as a way of reaching those standards—for example, through the statutory regulation of the non-surgical sector or new powers for the GMC. However, it does not follow that we must depend on legislation alone to meet the fundamental objectives of the Keogh review. Much has been achieved already and there is much more to do.
I know that the hon. Gentleman understands the pressure of competing priorities on parliamentary time. The calendar for legislation is full at the moment, as he knows, but we now have an opportunity to review and monitor the impact of non-legislative action before
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confirming whether new legislation would add significant value to safeguards for people choosing cosmetic procedures. We will continue to be advised on that by Sir Bruce and others as the safeguarding framework continues to develop. I can give the hon. Gentleman a personal assurance that I will ensure that the review of the non-legislative remedies is thorough, and that if it is found wanting, we will immediately look again at the subject with a view to taking further action.
We are grateful for the support of the Royal College of Surgeons and its partners and for the extremely thorough work that they have done so far. We are also grateful to the General Medical Council and the Care Quality Commission. In the light of the continuing work that I have outlined, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that we are in a far better position now than we were before Sir Bruce’s review to help to protect the public and ensure proper training and oversight of non-surgical as well as surgical cosmetic interventions.
On the specific questions that the hon. Gentleman raised about his constituent, I commit to returning to him with an answer on the doctor he mentioned and the insurance that he will be required to have. I will also give him a specific answer on the cost to the NHS and any work that we might do on cost recovery, and on the specific guidance on the advertising of surgical procedures. I hope also to be able to get to the bottom of the nature of the sales techniques and the claims made by the hospital that he has mentioned, to ensure that it is practising in accordance with the standards that would be expected of a decent, reasonable organisation doing what it purports to do. I thank the hon. Gentleman very much for bringing this case to the Government’s attention.
7.45 pm
House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).