Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing):
It is obvious that there are too many people who wish to speak and not enough time left. We have only 40 minutes of Back-Bench time remaining. There is no point in people looking disappointed; there are only 24 hours in
28 Oct 2015 : Column 447
a day and this is how it is. We can debate all sorts of things but there is only so much time. I have to reduce the time limit to three minutes, and I trust that colleagues will be decent and considerate to each other and not take too many interventions. If they do take interventions, could they not take the extra minute that is added on? I call Norman Lamb.
6 pm
Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), who made a thoughtful and valuable speech. As a principle, we must be willing to accept the importance of debating the reform of working arrangements if we believe that there is evidence that current arrangements are undermining the best possible patient care, and I know that junior doctors absolutely accept that view. But I have to say that I am not convinced by the Government’s arguments.
I mentioned earlier that I had talked to hospital leaders, who shared their view that junior doctors’ arrangements are not the problem. It was striking, listening to the Secretary of State, that he referred to a shortage of consultants at weekends. It was notable also that when I talked to hospital leaders, they spoke of a concern that some senior consultants in some specialties make outrageous demands for additional pay for weekend work. There is a problem there, and I would support reform of that situation, but I am not convinced by the case for reform of the sort that the Government are pursuing. The Secretary of State also rightly talked about juniors being clinically exposed at weekends. Again, the issue is a shortage of consultants at weekends, not issues relating to junior doctors.
I met some junior doctors yesterday and found them all to be very passionate and completely dedicated to the NHS. I found them to be not driven and motivated by pay. I have to say to the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), that junior doctors find it frankly insulting to be told that they have been misled by the British Medical Association. They are intelligent enough to make up their own minds, and they have done. The Secretary of State should choose very carefully the arguments that he puts to them. The Government must also recognise a basic reality—the contract will work only if it is attractive to junior doctors. If it is not, they will vote with their feet and do what the daughter of the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) has done and go to Australia—or Scotland or the United States—to work instead of in the NHS.
The reform and extension of plain time gives rise to real concerns about its impact on emergency medicine, on acute medicine, on intensive care and on maternity services—those areas where there is a particular need for substantial evening and weekend working.
Rehman Chishti: I have immense respect for the right hon. Gentleman’s work on mental health. In relation to the shortage of specialists, does he agree with the Royal College of Psychiatrists that psychiatrists should be put in that category?
Norman Lamb: I totally agree, and I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 448
Will the Minister clarify what the Secretary of State said with regard to no loss of pay for individual junior doctors because I fear that those may have been weasel words? He talked about working up to the legal maximum. Is he talking about working up to 48 hours or up to 56 hours? He has given no guarantee that those doctors who may still work 60 to 70 hours in a week will not end up losing their pay. It is very important that the Government are clear on that.
The Government seek to extract too much from a limited pot of money. We all know that £10 billion is not enough to keep the NHS going until 2020. We need to work together. I repeat the Liberal Democrat call for a non-partisan commission to ensure that we achieve a new settlement for the NHS and for care, and to engage with the public and the workforce to ensure that we get this right.
6.4 pm
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Three minutes is never enough, but here I go. First, we have heard a lot about seven-day working and a seven-day NHS. That does not occur only within the hospital. I would like to restate the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) in the Westminster Hall debate on the e-petition that, most important of all, we need to look at how we can reduce in the first place unplanned admissions to hospital from the community. Secondly, I echo what the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) said. We here have a responsibility not to exploit junior doctors and their willingness, sense of vocation and commitment to the NHS.
It is worth looking at some of the deficiencies of the 2003 contract. As I understand it, a doctor working 47 hours can be paid the same as one working 41 hours. That cannot be right. A doctor working daytime can be paid exactly the same as a doctor working only nights and late shifts. A doctor progressing to a post of greater responsibility might not get any extra pay for that. There are multiple flaws in the existing contract that need to be addressed as part of the growing trajectory towards improving terms and conditions each time we reassess the contract.
I recognise that there is a desire on all sides to get back round the table, and I strongly urge all sides to do that. I hope it can be done, but there is no contract that I can see lurking in the Minister’s bottom drawer waiting to be unveiled. In the report from the Doctors and Dentists Review Body three scenarios were set out. There are a further six, I understand, in circulation and in preparation by the NHS Employers organisation. There is so much to discuss, so many alternative scenarios, that it would be a dereliction of duty for all sides not to get back round the table.
We should note that in what has been proposed, by reducing the maximum number of hours to 72, there would be no more of the four nights in a row that some junior doctors have had to work, and no more seven consecutive nights on particular rota shifts. There is much that is positive in the contract, yet I recognise why there are concerns. I urge Dr Malawana who wrote to the Secretary of State to look again at what my right hon. Friend is seeking to achieve. There is clearly a willingness to discuss how to redefine daytime work, how to judge what we pay for Saturdays, how we change
28 Oct 2015 : Column 449
flexible pay premiums. There is so much that can still be discussed that we are missing an historic opportunity here to set in stone for another decade a much better contract and a much better set of criteria for fairer working practices for our very, very hardworking junior doctors.
6.7 pm
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard).
I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), the shadow Secretary of State for Health, to her new position.
I have three puncture marks on my left hand. They come from 2001 when I was admitted to accident and emergency suffering a life-threatening event, an ectopic pregnancy. It took four attempts before a junior doctor successfully inserted a line into my hand. He apologised to me and said, “I’m sorry, I’ve just worked for 24 hours without a break and I just can’t see straight.” I am grateful to that doctor, both for his compassion and for his honesty, and I will always be grateful to the junior doctor who wheeled me up to theatre at midnight and operated on me, saving my life.
Such overwork is what led the Labour Government to change the junior doctors contract. Under that contract, employers face financial penalties if junior doctors work longer than contracted. This Government want to remove these vital safeguards in the new contract and, instead, ask employers to follow the working time regulations. But in medicine, mistakes cost lives. The safeguards need to be much stronger than generic working time regulations, especially as junior doctors work a number of extra hours over and above what they are contracted to work, as we have already heard.
I have further concerns about the proposed changes. Currently, Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust, which manages Pinderfields, Wakefield’s local hospital, carries vacancies in all specialties, like most other large trusts. Vacancies are particularly hard to fill in A&E, obstetrics, paediatrics and medicine.
Junior doctors provide all types of patient care—emergency care to mothers in labour, care for new born babies, specialist elderly medicine, cancer care and surgery. We have heard that almost 3,500 doctors applied for paperwork to leave the UK and work abroad in the first 10 days after the Government announced their threat to impose the new contract.
I have concerns that the contract will discourage junior doctors from gaining clinical experience and contributing to medical research. Currently, pay progression is an annual increment, irrespective of their stage of training. NHS employers want to change that. That will impact on doctors who work part time or who are taking maternity leave, because they will not get an annual increment at their stage of training, so will not get pay progression.
Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mary Creagh: I will not give way.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 450
The Prime Minister said this morning that he was a feminist, but women junior doctors know that his warm words hide the cold reality of direct discrimination. Will the Minister tell us whether an equality impact assessment has been done on the proposals?
Finally, we have discussed the weekend effect, but Fiona Godlee, the editor of the British Medical Journal, has written to the Secretary of State criticising him for misrepresenting the research. He must think again and both sides must negotiate.
6.10 pm
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I rise to support our Secretary of State for Health. Far from the Opposition’s claims, the reforms he proposes will improve patient care and protect junior doctors on their shifts by ensuring that there are higher staffing numbers out of hours.
I am disappointed that the British Medical Association, which should represent the views of junior doctors, has refused to meet the Secretary of State for Health to discuss the proposals. Instead, it has politicised the issue. One calculator on the BMA website—it has been taken down—led junior doctors to believe that their pay would be cut by 30%. That has never been the case and is not part of any proposal. As a trade representative, the BMA should be ashamed that it has been scaremongering on an issue that affects the heart of our NHS and patient care, instead of engaging with the process in a professional way.
Over the past few weeks, I have seen all sorts of rumours circulating about the number of hours that doctors will be asked to work under the new contract, but the maximum number of hours they will be allowed to work will decrease from 91 hours to 72 hours. No junior doctor working full time will be asked to work more than 48 hours a week on average. The proposal does not return doctors to the time before the working time directive, when they slept on hospital floors. That was very unsafe. On the whole, the premise is to ensure that patient care is the safest it can be.
Doctors working too many hours goes against the basic principles of what the NHS should provide: the best care in the world, free of charge. I support the proposal that Saturdays should become part of the working week. They are treated that way in many professions and attract no extra pay. The Government’s proposal is cost-neutral and there are no cuts. No one will lose out. Junior doctors will be better off, because they will have more support on all their shifts. Patients will be better off, because care out of hours will improve.
I urge the BMA to listen carefully to the debate and to reopen talks with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. He is ready and waiting to discuss a package that works for all. Our NHS is fantastic, as are all our junior doctors who work in it. I urge the BMA to allow those young men and women to aspire to even greater heights, and to get around the table for a better NHS for all.
6.13 pm
Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab):
We have a very real problem in recruitment and retention in our national health service. Hospitals and general practices are forced to recruit doctors from overseas and highly expensive locum and agency staff. The British
28 Oct 2015 : Column 451
Medical Association has described the plans as unsafe and unfair. My postbag is full of letters from junior doctors in the past weeks. Many of them feel that they are already overworked and undervalued. The threat of the imposition of the new contract does nothing to make that feeling better and only compounds it.
One of my constituents, Elizabeth, was born in Whiston hospital, which is ranked the best hospital in the country—I am so proud of it. She has lived in St Helens her entire life and is now a junior doctor in the hospital where she was born, training to be a GP. Admirably, she wants to put something back in to her community, but she tells me her plans are at risk because the new proposals financially penalise those on maternity leave. She tells me that she will have an enforced pay cut of approximately 30%—I listened to what the Secretary of State said about that—which would leave her unable to pay her mortgage, which she carefully budgets for.
She would also be unable to pay for the compulsory exams needed to complete her training. Sadly, that means she would be forced to take her skills elsewhere. She went on to tell me that other countries, such as Australia, can offer a better quality of life compared with what the new proposals mean for her. Given the very real prospect that she might default on her mortgage, she would have no choice but to move abroad with her family. Applications for certification to practise abroad are soaring. These proposals will also impact unfairly on female junior doctors, 80% of whom are part-time trainers, as pay progression will be slower for them; we will lose even more doctors as a result.
I do not want to go back to the old days, when a junior doctor told me he fell asleep while with a patient—the patient had to wake him up. Another junior doctor was killed in a car crash on the way home after working for nearly 30 hours without a break. It cannot be proved that his working pattern was responsible, but nothing would convince his colleagues and family that that was not the case.
We cannot afford to lose the doctors we are training. Not one hospital in the north-west would be able to balance the books in the next financial year. The clinical commissioning groups are facing enormous financial challenges. Hospitals can only get the money from the tariff from the Government and the CCGs, and it is not there. We cannot pay consultants seven days a week if there is not the money in the CCGs.
6.16 pm
Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): As a doctor and BMA member, and having been a junior doctor until 2008, I have listened over recent weeks and months to medical colleagues who have articulated loud and clear their fears about what a new contract might bring. Of course, this is a contract for England and I am a Welsh MP, but some of my constituents work in the north-west of England, and we also know that the contract adopted in England is often reflected in the contracts adopted elsewhere in the UK.
I have been concerned by the breakdown in the relationship between junior doctors and the Government, particularly as there is widespread agreement that a new contract is necessary. I have met the Secretary of State and the chair of the BMA’s junior doctors committee, Johann Malawana, and I am grateful to them for conducting sensible and reasonable discussions.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 452
Junior doctors and other NHS staff want to feel valued, because they work extremely hard, have large workloads and, like the rest of the public sector, have been subject to pay restraint. There have been multiple attacks from the media in recent years, and indeed from politicians, which frankly have been unreasonable. Some doctors and NHS staff have been voting with their feet and moving abroad. We cannot afford that.
The Government have a duty to improve safety for patients at weekends and ensure that the NHS is affordable in challenging financial circumstances. It is evident to me that there has been some misinformation and unfounded fears about what is proposed in the new contract. The real difficulty with the current situation is that unless and until talks resume, there are in some respects no precise proposals to discuss, so it is very much a fear of the unknown. I believe that the main issue of concern is the threat to impose a contract. I understand how that threat came about, because two and a half years of negotiations led nowhere. I believe that that threat is now impeding the opportunity to resolve the current impasse.
Let me look at the rationale behind a new contract. It includes: an attempt to increase rostering of doctors at weekend; pay scale flexibility, with premiums to support shortage specialties or geographical areas; a change from time served in annual increments to pay progression based on training grades; a reduction of the total number of hours worked by doctors each week; and better consultant cover at weekends.
Of course, concerns have also been raised by the BMA. They include: the removal of financial penalties for hospitals that allow doctors to work excessive hours; and recognition of unsocial hours as premium time. We now know that no junior doctors are at risk of a pay cut. The BMA acknowledges that, in reality, compromise through discussion is required, but some of its current demands would effectively limit the ability for any new contract to be formed along the lines originally envisaged.
6.19 pm
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Opposition for bringing this very topical issue to the Floor of the House for consideration.
Of course, we cannot be closed-minded about the need to reform large aspects of the state, but when reforms are blatantly of an ideological nature it is essential that the appropriate scrutiny is applied, and I welcome the opportunity to do so.
My party, the Democratic Unionist party, believes strongly that an imposed contract does not represent the best way forward. We remain optimistic that the widespread acknowledgement that the existing contract is not fit for purpose will provide sufficient incentive for all parties to ensure that UK-wide agreement can be achieved. I commend the hon. Members for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) for their very cohesive contributions setting the scene for this sensible, pragmatic and rational route, and I hope that others can join in pushing the House in that direction.
We cannot play politics with the future of such an essential part of our health service, nor with hard-working, aspirational young people who have, in many cases, worked hard their whole lives just to enter the medical
28 Oct 2015 : Column 453
profession. Consequently, we must encourage constructive engagement between Government and junior doctors’ representatives with a view to achieving a positive outcome that underpins safe working practices as well as delivering the highest safety and quality of care for patients.
The current proposals seek to improve something by taking from it. They seek to make improvements that, frankly, cannot be made in a safe manner without increasing investment. It is not just the BMA making noises over these proposed contracts; a tidal wave of stakeholders has weighed in voicing concern. The only way forward is the sensible, rational and pragmatic cross-party debate that my party and others in this Chamber want to see. Such matters are simply beyond politics. Our young people’s futures are at stake, as is the safety of our citizens when treated by the NHS. We all need to come together, work out what is right, and make an agreement.
Although the Department of Health in London is responsible for these negotiations, Department of Health, Social Security and Public Safety officials from Northern Ireland have been engaged in ongoing discussions with local BMA junior doctor representatives to assist in identifying and understanding any issues particular to Northern Ireland. We need to find the middle ground so that, sensibly and positively, we can balance the concerns from the different parties involved and come up with a sustainable long-term solution to this issue. The DUP recognises the vital role played by junior doctors in our health service locally and trusts that an outcome can be achieved that appropriately recognises the important contribution that these dedicated professionals make to society in Northern Ireland and across the rest of the United Kingdom.
6.22 pm
Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I am delighted to be able to take part in this most important of debates.
It is worth saying at the outset that the most important issue we face when talking about changing these contracts is patient safety. We do well to recognise that our No. 1 priority should always be patient safety, and about the service that the NHS delivers to the patients who require its health and assistance at the most important time of their life. In order to deliver the improvements, level of service and safety that we require, we need to have an engaged workforce who are willing and enthused about their work. It is important to recognise the challenges that NHS staff face and the long hours that they have delivered over a number of years, putting themselves at great risk, frankly, in working what would be regarded in any other industry as silly hours. We clearly need to change those working practices to make sure that patient safety is once again brought right to the top of the agenda.
It is important to recognise that these negotiations are not about cash. This is not about saving money or changing the system so that the Government can spread things thinner; it is about delivering an NHS service over seven days of the week to make sure that when someone has that moment when they need the NHS to step in to save their life or to help them, the service is there and able to deliver.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 454
Junior doctors currently receive between four and five incremental pay rises, depending on the time they serve. In most other industries, increments in pay should be about qualifications and the way in which someone has worked through them, not simply about the amount of time they have served.
We must get to a point where we can deliver a seven-day NHS and eradicate the weekend effect. As hon. Members have mentioned, some patients are starting to change the way in which they engage with the NHS because they are concerned that, if they are admitted on a weekend, that will affect the care they receive. It is important to ensure that that does not happen. There will inevitably be changes to work patterns, and current contracts will have to change. At the same time the Government will ensure that there is extra pay for time that doctors work at weekends.
6.25 pm
Sue Hayman (Workington) (Lab): The Scottish Government have said that they will reject this new contract for doctors, and therefore doctors working in Scotland will not be affected by the reforms to pay and conditions. My constituency is in the far north of England, so this issue is of concern to me and my constituents. We already struggle to access decent healthcare in the county—particularly at our acute hospitals and Cumberland infirmary—due in large part to huge problems with the recruitment and retention of doctors.
Many people in my constituency already travel long distances to access the kind of treatment that they ought to be able to get much closer to home. If Scotland opens its doors to junior doctors from England who feel threatened by this new contract, that will have serious implications for my constituency and other constituencies on the Scottish borders. We already know—it has been discussed in this debate—that there is a problem with keeping doctors in the UK and stopping them moving to other countries such as Australia. If a doctor is working in Carlisle at the infirmary, and all they have to do is move to Dumfries, surely that is a lot more attractive and easier than emigrating to Australia.
As MPs we appreciate the sacrifices that come with working long hours, and the stresses of difficult decisions and the impact on our families. Surely, then, we should appreciate the highly skilled work that our doctors do, on top of the kind of work that we have to do, and we should respect and value their huge contribution. It disturbs me that the Government have lost the confidence of so many in the medical professions. While that lack of confidence continues, we will never resolve issues surrounding the recruitment and retention of professionals and junior doctors in our health service, and we will never resolve the problems experienced by my constituents in accessing the quality care to which they are entitled.
If this contract goes ahead, I have a genuine concern that not only will we fail to recruit the junior doctors we need, but we will lose those we have as they go over the border and into Scotland. I urge the Minister to consider that point. Has that impact been taken into account? Have the Government considered the potential loss of doctors to Scotland? I urge the Minister to look at the issue again.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 455
6.28 pm
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con): At the election, the Conservative party promised to deliver a seven-day a week NHS, and my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary is working hard to deliver a package of reforms, including the contractual changes under debate. As a former NHS worker, I know that junior doctors, like all those who work in the NHS, are dedicated to the service of patients. We owe them a great debt, and it is only right that they are rewarded fairly—something that I believe this new contract seeks to achieve.
It is time to dispel some of the mistruths about the updated terms and conditions that have been peddled by the Labour party and its lobbyist allies outside the Chamber. On pay, the facts are now clear. I am delighted that the Secretary of State has made it clear today that no junior doctor will be worse off as a result of the new contracts.
In terms of pay progression, the move away from an automatic rise for years served and towards increases linked to career progression through training grades and levels of responsibility must be welcomed. This will help to bring doctors in line with the industry standards of almost all other professions and see pay increases awarded fairly and on merit, rather than simply on how long a person has been in post.
Some plain time working will increase because of the changes, but there will be a new maximum working week of 72 hours, down from the current maximum of 91 hours. In addition, no junior doctor working full time will be expected to work on average more than 48 hours a week, and new limits on the number of nights and long shifts worked will be introduced. Surely these measures will provide a better work-life balance for our junior doctors and allow them to plan their time off with some certainty.
It is deeply concerning that the BMA has refused to negotiate on contract reform and has instead turned to the threat of strike action. Strikes, especially in vital public services such as health, are never in the public interest and serve only to detract from the valid points made by trade union members. I therefore urge the BMA to suspend the imminent strike ballot, get back around the negotiating table and start making some real progress with the Heath Secretary to secure a fair deal for their members, while securing patient safety.
A Government who take the difficult decisions rather than what is politically popular are, by their very nature, a responsible Government. As a Conservative Government, we are taking those difficult decisions so we can build a stronger and more sustainable NHS for the future.
6.31 pm
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): In order to save paper, I am going to read out an email that comes from a doctor in my constituency. It would be great if those responding to the debate dealt with the concerns that doctors have raised and told us whether they consider their concerns to be right or wrong.
In essence, the junior doctor says the proposed changes will mean that doctors who work shifts of up to 11 hours will be entitled to only a 20-minute break; an NHS trust will no longer face penalties for introducing unsafe working rotas; and there will be a change in description
28 Oct 2015 : Column 456
of what are called sociable working hours. For junior doctors, sociable working hours will now be from 7 am to 7 pm, Monday to Friday, and 7 am to 10 pm on Monday and Saturday. That means that 9 pm on Saturday will be considered to be the same as 9 am on a Tuesday morning. That cannot be right.
The proposals will lead to a decrease in doctors’ salaries. As my junior doctor says, “Contrary to popular belief, we do not earn a lot of money. We start at £22,600 a year after five to six years of hard training and we rack up a debt of £40,000. We work a lot of hours.” The £22,600 figure translates to £10.65 an hour. Junior doctors hold an incredibly responsible job for that amount of money. Changes to pay progression will mean that if they leave the NHS to take up either training or maternity leave, they will not receive the pay rises due to them. In addition, if they change specialism, they will start from the bottom of the pay scale again—all their experience will count for nothing. Patient safety will be compromised and to suggest that that will not happen is plainly wrong.
The junior doctor’s email goes on to state, “We have to move jobs every three to six months. We struggle to settle anywhere and put down roots. We love our jobs and that’s why we sacrifice so much to be doctors, but this new contract is bullying, undermining and undervalues the doctors in our country.” Many doctors may well leave the profession. He says that that is the last thing they want to do, as they love the NHS and they want to serve the NHS.
The suggestion has been made that the information presented by doctors is wrong, or that they are worrying unnecessarily. If that is the case, I would really like an answer to every one of the questions we have raised. We must also be mindful of the fact that many doctors are leaving the United Kingdom. They are going to Australia and to New Zealand, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Sue Hayman) said, they may go to Scotland.
6.34 pm
Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con): It is important to make the point that these reforms are categorically not about saving money—their impact on the pay bill for junior doctors will be cost-neutral—so any suggestion that they represent a pay cut for junior doctors, as The BMJ has claimed, is dishonest. Junior doctors’ basic pay will increase, as will their pension contributions, and they will be awarded pay rises for progression, rather than simply time served, which is in line with most other industries.
NHS employers, who are part of the NHS Confederation, the only body that speaks on behalf of the whole healthcare system, have said in a briefing note that the previous increases, linked to time served, were unfair and did not reflect real progression in terms of increased skills and greater responsibility. The world has changed. People are living longer and have busy lives, and our population is increasing, meaning there are pressures on our health service that were not there 10 years ago. NHS employers have also said that the current contracts are not fit for purpose.
Doctors provide a vital public service, but the NHS must adapt to the needs of the people they serve. This means we need more services available at weekends and
28 Oct 2015 : Column 457
in the evenings, and we need doctors to give people the peace of mind that comes from knowing they can get the help they need when they need it.
Opposition Members claim that the reforms will have a detrimental effect on patient safety, but what is safe about a young trainee medic working the maximum 91 hours per week? The reforms will drastically reduce this to 72 hours in seven consecutive days, meaning we will be working our new doctors less hard, while striving towards the seven-day NHS the Government were elected to deliver.
I would like to turn to some of the concerns raised in the BMA’s briefing document. On page 3, it claims that the reforms will not protect doctors from having to work “dangerously long hours”. As I have said, the reforms will reduce the number of hours junior doctors have to work and introduce new safeguards on work-life balance by ensuring that all work schedules are mutually agreed between doctors and employers. No junior doctor will be expected to work more than a 48-hour week or more than four consecutive night shifts, and thanks to the Government’s reforms to childcare all working parents with three to four-year-old children will have access to 30 hours a week of free childcare. The rise in childcare costs claimed by the BMA are therefore a fallacy.
In conclusion, these reforms will bring doctors’ contracts into line with modern lives and working practices. They are important and right. They will improve outcomes for patients, which is the most important thing, and improve conditions for junior doctors. I welcome the Government’s amendment to the motion, and I implore all colleagues from across the House to follow us into the Lobby this evening.
6.37 pm
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I would like to relay some comments made to me when I participated with other colleagues in a demonstration in Newcastle attended by about 5,000 junior doctors. I had the great honour to be in the company of Dr Rachel King, a dedicated professional from South Tyneside district general named “doctor of the year” for her outstanding contribution in the field of care of the elderly, and some of her colleagues. I was struck by their commitment. They love the service, they want to protect it and they want to see their profession valued, and to that end they asked me to make a few points today.
For them, this debate is not about money, although I take issue with the claim from some Members that the reforms are cost-neutral and that doctors will not lose out. That might be the case overall, but the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) made a really good point: some individuals might lose out. They pointed out that junior doctors, en masse, do not support the reforms. These are clever people—the cream of the crop—and we should listen to them. They know how the service works and how it should be reformed.
They also pointed out that the reforms could increase the danger to patient safety because they might well not solve the problem of junior doctors working longer hours. As colleagues have pointed out, including the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), the protections currently in place are to be removed, yet we have not
28 Oct 2015 : Column 458
had an assurance that something else will be put in their place. As we all know, tired doctors make mistakes. We need to address this issue about discouraging career breaks. Many junior doctors are women who leave to have children. Having spent a great deal of money on training them—the Secretary of State may be able to tell us the figure, but I believe it is in the order of £200,000 or £250,000—we want to encourage them to come back into the profession. There are concerns about not having enough people going into specialist areas.
We need to address the issue about recruitment and retention. Members representing constituencies in the north of England have touched on the issue of how attractive it would be for people to go to Scotland where the new contract does not apply. Over a period of two or three days, about 1,300 GPs made an application for the certification to practise abroad. That should be a real concern when we are having difficulty recruiting and retaining GPs. There is also a knock-on effect in general practice, but I will leave it there, given the shortage of time.
Mr Speaker: We are extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
6.40 pm
Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con): My wife is a junior doctor, an F2 currently working in A&E in one of London’s busiest hospitals. I could therefore start by thanking the Secretary of State for livening up my evenings, some of my afternoons and some of my mornings. Instead, I wish to start by saying that however hard colleagues in this place may think we work, precious few of us, as politicians, will ever really understand what it is like to work 10 hours a day and longer, when there is no time to eat, drink or even use the toilet, all while making decisions that are vital for patients and where a single error is both life-threatening and career-ending. Too many doctors feel that the current health service works despite the existing outdated systems, rather than because of them. That is why I hope all parties agree that reform is vital.
The fact that people are working in such intense conditions goes some way to explaining the intense passion that has surrounded this debate. Doctors not only deserve better than the contract they are currently on, but they deserve better than the negotiating process that has turned serious attempts at reform into a debacle where a vacuum has been filled by knowing misinformation from the BMA. Although it is hugely frustrating that the BMA has told many people, wrongly, that they are in line for a 30% pay cut when many will get a 15% pay rise and that many now think the Government want to impose longer working hours when in fact they will be cut, it is understandable. I have seen precious little attempt at genuine honesty from the BMA, but nobody should forget that the union has stepped into a vacuum, and that is why I hope the BMA will come back to the table and negotiate.
We need as little politics in the NHS as possible. We surely need to accept that doctors, however angry and however misinformed, have a commitment to their patients that transcends their commitment to any one hospital, any union or any political party. The low morale that has persisted in the NHS since last winter has not been helped by a lack of negotiation, and it will not be
28 Oct 2015 : Column 459
helped by the exhausting anger of a strike. I would like to see a contract that entices people into specialties such as A&E and being a GP, in part because the latter will see fewer visiting the former, and which acknowledges that working on a Saturday morning is already the norm for thousands but says that working late on a Saturday night is distinctly antisocial. Above all, I would like to see the mature approach from the Labour party, the BMA and all those concerned that will put the NHS on a sustainable footing. We have acted in good faith and I hope that the Labour party will see that and not seek to undermine the health service to which we are all indebted.
6.44 pm
Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): My constituent Dr Amy Di Marco, specialist registrar in general surgery, says that the term “junior doctors” is pretty misleading. She says
“in fact it applies to all those who are not GPs or Consultants and therefore includes many doctors who, like me, are nearing 40 (or over), with several years of experience and with responsibilities for patients as well as their own families.”
These are not work experience kids making the tea; they are serious professionals. They are highly qualified individuals who need commensurate remuneration and conditions that recognise that fact. In the areas of general practice, nuclear medicine, chemical pathology, emergency medicine, psychiatry, learning disabilities— the list goes on—we have a recruitment and retention crisis in any case, so these changes to contracts are not going to make the situation any better and risk exacerbating it. Junior doctors face the removal of the obligation on hospital trusts to safeguard the hours worked and the hiking up of plain time from 60 to 90 hours a week.
On 5 November there will be the ballot to strike. The BMA states that this is not a decision taken lightly. Indeed, being forced to work at weekends tending to patients on the brink of death after staying up all night cannot be good for anyone. There are also serious concerns that this proposal would disadvantage those on maternity pay or sick leave, employees working reduced hours or those doing research, yet this work pays dividends for the future and pioneering research on incurable diseases might save the NHS. All those people would be disadvantaged because their safeguards are being removed at a stroke.
This summer, we all saw the “#I’m in work, Jeremy” campaign on the promise for a seven-day NHS. It is happening already. I know this; I was born in Queen Charlotte’s hospital on a Sunday in 1972. Bolstered weekend care is obviously a good thing, but not if it means already stretched personnel being spread even more thinly, and not if it is unilaterally steamrollered through without adequate staffing and resources.
My constituent, Dr William Stern, neurology registrar— he has been in the Public Gallery since 4 o’clock—told me that he was not optimistic because of
“the current funding crisis…increasing deficits in most hospitals…targets being missed”
and junior doctors “threatening to strike”—something he does not want to do. I urge the Government to think again and end this stalemate. I urge all MPs to back the motion.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 460
6.46 pm
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): We have had a comprehensive and powerful debate, with 23 speakers and many more Members who would have liked to contribute if we had had more time. I would particularly like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Joan Ryan), my hon. Friends the Members for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer), for Workington (Sue Hayman), for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) and for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq); the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), the right hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon); and the hon. Members for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer), for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies), for Sherwood (Mark Spencer), for Erewash (Maggie Throup), for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) and for Morley and Outwood (Andrea Jenkyns).
Members of all parties have spoken with great passion and praise for our junior doctors, who work tirelessly to deliver good quality services—despite the challenges they face in an NHS that is increasingly under pressure and under strain.
Andrew Gwynne: I do not have time to give way, I am afraid.
I echo those sentiments of sincere thanks, but we have heard of junior doctors who already work weekends, already work nights, already work holidays and give their all for their patients. Despite all this, the junior doctors now face a situation that has left them feeling deflated, demoralised and devalued.
Patient safety has been a key theme of today’s debate. Some Members have valiantly leapt to the Health Secretary’s defence, but those voices have been far outnumbered by Members who are deeply concerned that this contract is unsafe for doctors and unsafe for patients.
Members have argued that the removal of the financial penalties that apply to hospitals that force junior doctors to work unsafe hours risks taking us back to the bad old days of overworked doctors, too exhausted to deliver safe care. The BMA says this safeguard, which is built into the current contract, has played an important role in bringing dangerous working hours down. Removing this financial disincentive to overworked junior doctors is extremely alarming, especially at a time when junior doctors are already coming under an enormous amount of pressure and strain. If the Health Secretary would just listen, he would hear junior doctors shouting loudly and clearly that they cannot give any more.
Many Members highlighted the protests and marches that have taken place throughout the country in recent weeks. We had only to catch a glimpse of the placards that were waved as thousands of junior doctors marched against the contract to understand that those doctors now fear for their own health and well-being. I was
28 Oct 2015 : Column 461
struck by one banner which read, “I could be your doctor tomorrow, or I could be the patient”, and those doctors’ concerns have been echoed by many Members today. How can the Secretary of State possibly say that he is acting in the interests of patient safety if the very people who work in the NHS say he is putting safety at risk?
Another argument that has been advanced today is that the contract is necessary to ensure that our NHS works seven days a week. Not only does that argument do a huge disservice to our NHS staff who already provide care seven days a week and 24 hours a day, and reveal just how out of touch some Conservative Members are with the realities of working on the frontline in our NHS, but it is wholly inaccurate. If this junior doctor contract were imposed in its current form, it would have the opposite effect, as many independent clinical voices have warned.
It is a bitter irony that the problems that the new junior doctor contract was supposed to be trying to address when it was originally proposed back in 2012—the need to introduce better pay and work-life balance—are the very problems that will be made worse should the contract go ahead in its current form. In letters to the Secretary of State, the presidents of a number of royal colleges and faculties have made it very clear that they share those concerns, but he presumably thinks that they too have been misled.
The Secretary of State said that he did not intend to cut the pay of any junior doctor, but his sums simply do not add up, and everyone can see through the spin. No one with a GCSE in maths can believe that no doctor will be worse off as a result of the new contract. Let the right hon. Gentleman come to the Dispatch Box in the minute that I have left, and answer this question. To what percentage of junior doctors currently working within the legal limits will what the Secretary of State has said today apply? Is it 50%? Less than a quarter? What is it?
Andrew Gwynne: In that case, I ask the Secretary of State to explain this. If the pay envelope is not increasing, and if the pay is not being reduced, how can these sums add up? They just do not add up, and I suggest that he go back to night school and learn some basic arithmetic.
We know that the BMA has been conciliatory today: it has offered to speak to the Secretary of State again. I ask him, please, let us take this down a notch. Let us get him talking to junior doctors again. The simple fact is that these are the junior doctors who work in our A & E; these are the junior doctors who work in every department of every hospital on the frontline. They come in early and leave late, they already provide care for seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and they deserve a lot better than this Government.
6.53 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Ben Gummer):
Junior doctors form a critical work force in our national health service. They are critical in the truest sense of the word: they are indispensable to
28 Oct 2015 : Column 462
the care of NHS patients. They work around the clock, and they are crucial to the cure of millions of people every year. That was recognised in the powerful speeches that have been made today, not least the very personal speeches made by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) and the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). It is clear that every Member appreciates the central importance of junior doctors, and the extent of their training was made plain by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford).
The critical importance of junior doctors makes their career unique. Few professions are so rewarding, but few are so challenging. I know from my own experience in hospital and from listening to junior doctors how many strive to provide the very best care, how they devote themselves to advancing their knowledge and level of training, and how they frequently make sacrifices in their private lives that others in comparable professions are not asked to make. That is why I understand why there is such a sense of frustration and anger when junior doctors are told by a trusted source that they will soon be asked to work more hours for less money. I know it will be of small consolation to them, but we on this side of the House are as frustrated because we have always recognised in the contract negotiations that we have initiated with the BMA that no such situation would arise.
The assurances that my right hon. Friend has made in a series of letters over the past few weeks, and the assurance he has given today that no junior doctor working within the legal limits in their current contract will lose money as a result of these changes—
Heidi Alexander: Will the Minister give way?
Ben Gummer: I cannot because I have to conclude.
They are precisely the offers that were made privately both by the Secretary of State and negotiators in their discussions with the BMA. Our frustration is compounded by the fact that right from the beginning of this process, we have sought in the new contract to eradicate the slew of injustices in the current contract which make life unfair, and in some cases unbearable, for junior doctors.
Let me give a few examples raised by hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer). It is unfair that doctors who take time out for valuable medical research receive precisely the same increments as colleagues who might take time out to do something completely unconnected with their training and with service to the NHS, and the same increments as those who take time out altogether from the health service, working only part-time perhaps to develop a career in business or another field. They retain the same increments and basic pay through their career as the doctor who works diligently five, six, sometimes seven days a week, progressing through their training, passing their exams—yet getting exactly the same level of pay as the doctors who do not.
The greatest injustice arises for doctors from the perverse incentives in this contract—for example, hospital management choosing to use the current contract to avoid difficult decisions in rostering staff, paying doctors to work unsafe hours rather than getting to grips with the roster they should be putting in place to ensure safe care for patients.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 463
Let me make it clear to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), who spoke for the Labour party, that the reductions so far since the 2000 contract are a result not of the penalty payments put in place as part of that contract, but of the working time regulations which have made a significant impact on the working hours of doctors, and quite rightly so. Does he not see the logic of his own argument? There are still doctors in the national health service who are working dangerous hours despite the fact that there are penalties in place to stop them doing so. By extension, the only way we can ensure that we have a proper, safe working environment in the NHS is to ensure, once and for all, that in contract and through review, and by exposure to regulatory bodies, junior doctors are not permitted to work unsafe hours. When we are asked whether we back the mis-statements by some of the people involved in this debate, or whether we encourage people to—
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No.36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Main Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.
The House divided:
Ayes 260, Noes 301.
Division No. 101]
[
6.59 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Ahmed-Sheikh, Ms Tasmina
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allen, Mr Graham
Anderson, Mr David
Ashworth, Jonathan
Austin, Ian
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Beckett, rh Margaret
Benn, rh Hilary
Betts, Mr Clive
Black, Mhairi
Blackford, Ian
Blackman, Kirsty
Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Boswell, Philip
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brake, rh Tom
Brennan, Kevin
Brock, Deidre
Brown, Alan
Brown, Lyn
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Richard
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Dawn
Byrne, rh Liam
Cadbury, Ruth
Cameron, Dr Lisa
Campbell, rh Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Champion, Sarah
Chapman, Douglas
Chapman, Jenny
Cherry, Joanna
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cooper, Julie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Coyle, Neil
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cummins, Judith
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Dakin, Nic
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint
Day, Martyn
De Piero, Gloria
Docherty, Martin John
Donaldson, Stuart Blair
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Dowd, Peter
Dromey, Jack
Dugher, Michael
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Edwards, Jonathan
Elliott, Julie
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Esterson, Bill
Evans, Chris
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Fletcher, Colleen
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Fovargue, Yvonne
Foxcroft, Vicky
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gethins, Stephen
Glass, Pat
Glindon, Mary
Godsiff, Mr Roger
Goodman, Helen
Grady, Patrick
Grant, Peter
Gray, Neil
Green, Kate
Greenwood, Lilian
Greenwood, Margaret
Griffith, Nia
Gwynne, Andrew
Haigh, Louise
Hamilton, Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harpham, Harry
Harris, Carolyn
Hayes, Helen
Healey, rh John
Hendrick, Mr Mark
Hendry, Drew
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr George
Hunt, Tristram
Huq, Dr Rupa
Hussain, Imran
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jarvis, Dan
Johnson, Diana
Jones, Gerald
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Susan Elan
Kane, Mike
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Kerevan, George
Kinahan, Danny
Kinnock, Stephen
Kyle, Peter
Lamb, rh Norman
Lammy, rh Mr David
Lavery, Ian
Law, Chris
Leslie, Chris
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
Lewis, Clive
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Long Bailey, Rebecca
Lucas, Caroline
Lucas, Ian C.
Lynch, Holly
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mactaggart, rh Fiona
Madders, Justin
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Malhotra, Seema
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr Gordon
Maskell, Rachael
Matheson, Christian
Mc Nally, John
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonald, Andy
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
McDonald, Stuart C.
McDonnell, John
McGarry, Natalie
McGovern, Alison
McInnes, Liz
McKinnell, Catherine
McLaughlin, Anne
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Monaghan, Carol
Morden, Jessica
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Roger
Nandy, Lisa
Newlands, Gavin
Nicolson, John
O'Hara, Brendan
Onn, Melanie
Onwurah, Chi
Osamor, Kate
Oswald, Kirsten
Owen, Albert
Paterson, Steven
Pearce, Teresa
Pennycook, Matthew
Perkins, Toby
Phillips, Jess
Phillipson, Bridget
Powell, Lucy
Pugh, John
Qureshi, Yasmin
Rayner, Angela
Reed, Mr Jamie
Reed, Mr Steve
Rees, Christina
Reynolds, Emma
Reynolds, Jonathan
Rimmer, Marie
Robertson, rh Angus
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Rotheram, Steve
Ryan, rh Joan
Salmond, rh Alex
Saville Roberts, Liz
Shah, Naz
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Sheerman, Mr Barry
Sheppard, Tommy
Sherriff, Paula
Shuker, Mr Gavin
Siddiq, Tulip
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Andy
Smeeth, Ruth
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Cat
Smith, Jeff
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Smyth, Karin
Starmer, Keir
Stephens, Chris
Stevens, Jo
Streeting, Wes
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, rh Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Thewliss, Alison
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Thomson, Michelle
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turley, Anna
Turner, Karl
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vaz, rh Keith
Vaz, Valerie
Watson, Mr Tom
Weir, Mike
West, Catherine
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Whitford, Dr Philippa
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr Mark
Wilson, Corri
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woodcock, John
Wright, Mr Iain
Zeichner, Daniel
Tellers for the Ayes:
Grahame M. Morris
and
Sue Hayman
NOES
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Allan, Lucy
Allen, Heidi
Amess, Sir David
Andrew, Stuart
Ansell, Caroline
Argar, Edward
Atkins, Victoria
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Mr Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Berry, James
Bingham, Andrew
Blackman, Bob
Blackwood, Nicola
Boles, Nick
Bone, Mr Peter
Borwick, Victoria
Bradley, Karen
Brady, Mr Graham
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, rh James
Bruce, Fiona
Buckland, Robert
Burns, rh Sir Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, rh Alistair
Cairns, Alun
Carmichael, Neil
Cartlidge, James
Cash, Sir William
Caulfield, Maria
Chalk, Alex
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Churchill, Jo
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Cleverly, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Costa, Alberto
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Crouch, Tracey
Davies, Byron
Davies, Chris
Davies, David T. C.
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Mims
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh Mr David
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Donelan, Michelle
Dorries, Nadine
Dowden, Oliver
Drax, Richard
Drummond, Mrs Flick
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evans, Mr Nigel
Evennett, rh Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Fernandes, Suella
Field, rh Mark
Foster, Kevin
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Frazer, Lucy
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Fysh, Marcus
Gale, Sir Roger
Garnier, rh Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Ghani, Nusrat
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glen, John
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Halfon, rh Robert
Hall, Luke
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, rh Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, rh Mr John
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heappey, James
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Heaton-Jones, Peter
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoare, Simon
Hollingbery, George
Hollinrake, Kevin
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Howlett, Ben
Huddleston, Nigel
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Jenkin, Mr Bernard
Jenkyns, Andrea
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Boris
Johnson, Gareth
Johnson, Joseph
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kennedy, Seema
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Sir Greg
Knight, Julian
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lee, Dr Phillip
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leigh, Sir Edward
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, rh Dr Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lumley, Karen
Mackinlay, Craig
Mackintosh, David
Main, Mrs Anne
Mak, Mr Alan
Malthouse, Kit
Mann, Scott
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Johnny
Merriman, Huw
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Milling, Amanda
Mills, Nigel
Mordaunt, Penny
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, James
Morton, Wendy
Mowat, David
Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Parish, Neil
Patel, rh Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penning, rh Mike
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Stephen
Philp, Chris
Pincher, Christopher
Pow, Rebecca
Prentis, Victoria
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pursglove, Tom
Quin, Jeremy
Quince, Will
Raab, Mr Dominic
Redwood, rh John
Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Mary
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, rh Amber
Rutley, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Scully, Paul
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Simpson, rh Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Julian
Smith, Royston
Soames, rh Sir Nicholas
Solloway, Amanda
Soubry, rh Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Stride, Mel
Stuart, Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Sunak, Rishi
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Syms, Mr Robert
Thomas, Derek
Throup, Maggie
Tolhurst, Kelly
Tomlinson, Justin
Tomlinson, Michael
Tracey, Craig
Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Tugendhat, Tom
Turner, Mr Andrew
Tyrie, rh Mr Andrew
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Charles
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Warburton, David
Warman, Matt
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Wharton, James
Whately, Helen
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Craig
Williamson, rh Gavin
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wood, Mike
Wragg, William
Wright, rh Jeremy
Zahawi, Nadhim
Tellers for the Noes:
Jackie Doyle-Price
and
Guy Opperman
Question accordingly negatived.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 464
28 Oct 2015 : Column 465
28 Oct 2015 : Column 466
28 Oct 2015 : Column 467
Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 32(2)), That the proposed words be there added.
The Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)).
That this House welcomes the Government’s commitment to delivering seven-day hospital services and saving lives by combating the weekend effect; notes the British Medical Association’s (BMA) decision to walk away from negotiations to reform a contract which all sides acknowledge is not fit for purpose; further notes the Government’s proposed introduction of new contractual limits which protect staff from working unsafe hours and the commitment that average junior doctors’ pay will not fall; and calls on the BMA to put patient care first, to choose talks over strikes, and to return to negotiations.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 468
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You might recall that on Monday you granted me an urgent question about the arrests of a Chinese dissident, who is now a British citizen, and two Tibetan students following demonstrations against the Chinese President during his visit last week. Can you advise me whether there is any way in which I can record the fact that all charges have been dropped against the two students and the dissident Chinese British citizen?
Mr Speaker: There is, and the hon. Gentleman has found it. On reflection, he will know that he has found it. The matter is on the record forever thanks to the ingenuity of the hon. Gentleman.
Fabian Hamilton: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker: We will leave it there.
Business without Debate
committee of Privileges
That:
(1) Standing Order No. 148A be amended as follows:
(a) line 4, leave out “ten” and insert “seven”
(b) line 5, leave out “five” and insert “three”
(c) line 10, leave out “consisting of no more than seven Members,”
(e) line 30, after “Privileges” insert “and of former Committees of Privileges”;
(2) Standing Order No. 149 be amended as follows:
(b) line 65, after “Privileges” insert “and of former Committees on Standards”;
(3) Kevin Barron, Sir Paul Beresford, Tom Blenkinsop, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr Dominic Grieve, Tommy Sheppard and Jo Stevens be members of the Committee of Privileges.—(Charlie Elphicke.)
Standards
That Mr Geoffrey Cox be discharged from the Committee on Standards and Tom Blenkinsop be added.—(Charlie Elphicke.)
Mr Speaker: I say again what I have often said: will any hon. Member who is unaccountably leaving the Chamber, not wishing to hear the Adjournment debate secured by the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), please do so quickly and quietly, so that those of us who are all agog can hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say?
28 Oct 2015 : Column 469
Corporate Boards (Diversity)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Charlie Elphicke.)
7.15 pm
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I thought I would start by setting in context the reason for initiating this debate. First of all, tomorrow the Labour peer Lord Davies of Abersoch—not just a peer but a leading businessman in our country—will be producing and publishing his final report on gender diversity on corporate boards. Secondly, as you know, Mr Speaker, I led for the Opposition on these issues for the past four years and maintain a very keen interest in them. Before entering this place, I practised as a lawyer advising companies large and small, and one of my big motivations for initiating this debate is that I often found, particularly when advising our large companies—attending board meetings, taking instructions from clients, going to a completion meeting for a transaction—that there were very few women in the room and I was almost always the only person of colour.
I want to make one observation before turning to the progress that has been made. Very often in this House, debate is characterised by sometimes extreme tribalism, which requires your intervention, Mr Speaker. The Minister shakes her head.
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry): I am just shocked.
Mr Umunna: Our debates have been described as “slightly yah-boo”, but the issue of diversity has illustrated that when there is broad agreement across the parties, we can actually achieve great progress and effect change in our society. In the last Parliament we had a Liberal Democrat Business Secretary in a Conservative-led Government, commissioning a Labour peer to carry out a review and then produce a report into how we can improve the way in which our boardrooms in this country operate—what they look like—ensuring that they are more representative. What happened as a result of that approach? In 2010, women made up just 12.5% of FTSE 100 boards. In the FTSE 100 at that point there were 21 all-male boards. Later in 2010, Lord Davies was commissioned to do his work by Sir Vince Cable, the then Business Secretary. In 2011, Lord Davies reported, making a range of different recommendations, and perhaps the one that stood out publicly was the target to ensure that women make up 25% of FTSE 100 boards.
The initial reaction of some businesses and business groups was not necessarily terribly encouraging. We all hear the merit argument: “Why pay attention to somebody’s background? Appoint on merit.” The problem with that argument, as ever, is that if boards have been appointing on merit, the reason that our boards do not look like modern Britain and do not have enough women on them is that there are not sufficient women who merit promotion to the board. That argument does not hold water. It did not hold water in 2010; it certainly does not hold water in 2015.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab):
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I congratulate him on all the marvellous work that he did in opposition
28 Oct 2015 : Column 470
on this subject. His comments on gender equality also apply to ethnic minority representation. Today I attended the funeral of a great British entrepreneur—Gulam Noon, who created a business from absolutely nothing. There are people of talent around now—people such as the late Lord Noon—who could easily serve as executive directors on the board of British Airways or others of that kind. It is not that we wait for legislation; this can be done now, if corporate Britain decides to act.
Mr Umunna: I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend. Lord Noon was a trailblazer, and his passing is a great loss for our country. On behalf of Members in all parts of the House I extend our sympathy and condolences to his family. He was a big man and he made a huge difference.
Effecting change so that we have more Lord Noons and more diversity in the boardroom has required leadership from business groups such as the CBI, the Institute of Directors and the women’s 30% Club. The last Business Secretary also undoubtedly forced change. One of the most important aspects of this debate is the Government ensuring that they keep on the table for business the prospect of more prescriptive action if a business-led approach does not achieve sufficient change. The result of what was done on gender is that in 2015 there are no all-male boards in the FTSE 100, and 26.1% of board members overall are women—a fantastic achievement.
Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on a very important topic. He mentioned that there are no all-male boards in the FTSE 100, but there are 23 all-male boards in the FTSE 250. That is an important point, and I wonder whether he could reflect on the fact that it is not just about boards in the big companies; it is about how we encourage both gender and ethnic minority diversity in middle-sized companies and also in middle management.
Mr Umunna: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; we are talking about the pipeline. He pre-empts my point that, given that we have seen such fantastic progress, there is now a strong instinct to take our foot off the pedal. Yes, the glass ceiling for women is starting to show cracks, but we have yet to smash it. We now need a crusade to ensure that we increase the number of female executive directors. It is a disgrace that in 2015 there are so few women at CEO level in the FTSE 100 and beyond when there is such an abundance of talent out there. That should not detract from our enjoyment of the moment tomorrow when Lord Davies presents his final report and reflects on what has been achieved on gender.
If gender diversity has increased, however, the appalling lack of ethnic diversity in UK boardrooms persists, and progress has gone into reverse in 2015. That is no way for our country to mark the 50th anniversary this year of the first Race Relations Act. The latest annual survey of 10,000 top business leaders by executive recruiter Green Park, which has done fantastic work in this area, shows that the number of visible ethnic minority CEOs is falling, and the number of all-white boards is increasing, at a time when 14% of our population is from a black or minority ethnic background. Today there are just four non-white CEOs in the FTSE 100, following Tidjane Thiam’s move from Prudential to Credit Suisse.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 471
Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) (Con): I, too, commend the hon. Gentleman on the brilliant choice of topic for debate. Is there not a danger of examining the symptoms rather than the cause here, which could mean that we end up with the less competent on boards? Should we not be trying to inspire and encourage a range of people on to boards by targeting education and looking at the beginning of the process, which explains why these people are not succeeding in getting to that higher level?
Mr Umunna: I am afraid that there are simply too many people out there with the talent and ability who are not being appointed. That is the reality of the situation in 2015.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for all that he is saying, and I congratulate him on his engagement, which was announced in the last few days.
Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not special pleading? If we look overseas to America, we see that they have made huge strides with the appointment of African-Americans and Latinos to boards. That increases the diversity of talent, and most pioneering companies understand that to be the case.
Mr Umunna: I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend, and I thank him for his best wishes. On the point that he makes, he and I represent very similar constituencies, and we cannot carry on like this. When my young black constituents ask me what they should consider doing in the future, I want to be able to point to people who look like them in the boardrooms, to inspire them to think that they can do it too. In 2015 there are far too few people who I can point to and give as an example.
Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this Adjournment debate. It is this very subject that led us to create the all-party parliamentary group on governance and inclusive leadership. Members on both sides of the House recognise how important diversity is in business and on boards, and most businesses recognise the business case for diversity. Does my hon. Friend agree?
Mr Umunna: I could not agree more, and I very much welcome the establishment of that all-party parliamentary group. My hon. Friend mentioned the economic benefits. We are not harnessing the huge benefits that our diaspora communities in the UK can bring to the boardroom—their family connections to and cultural understanding of the emerging markets, as we seek to export more and tackle from a trade perspective a current account deficit which is the largest on record.
In response to what I have said, I call on Ministers, first, to set a target for ethnic minority representation on FTSE 100 boards to be met by 2020, so that there are no all-white boards by 2020. That is a sensible target. The 2020 campaign led by Lenny Henry, Trevor Phillips and others has suggested that. I think that is a reasonable suggestion. Secondly, in 2013 the Companies Act 2006 was amended to require companies to include a breakdown of the number of female employees on boards, in senior management positions and in the company as a whole. We should do the same for ethnicity. If businesses do not know the problem in their workplace, they cannot do anything about it. Finally, Lord Davies
28 Oct 2015 : Column 472
has done a fine job on gender diversity. Let us now commission him to carry out a similar review on ethnicity. I praise the Government and the previous Government for their political will to make that happen on gender: get Lord Davies to carry out a similar review into ethnic diversity.
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP): I commend the hon. Gentleman for securing this important debate. Does he agree that the issue in respect of individuals who have a disability also needs to be taken forward, and that it has not been addressed appropriately so far?
Mr Umunna: I agree. As is often said in debates when we are considering equality issues, it is not a case of either/or; it is and. We need to look at all these aspects.
Ultimately, if there is not sufficient progress in a reasonable time frame, Ministers must be clear that they will act. Both carrot and stick are necessary if we are to build that fairer, more equal Britain where all my constituents, regardless of their background, can aspire to achieve, to reach for the stars and lead British business.
7.28 pm
The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry): I am always grateful to my team in the Department because they always write me a speech. Most of the speech that has been provided is not of much relevance because I am in listening mode on this issue. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), whom I congratulate not just on his engagement, but on having secured this debate, makes some extremely interesting and valid points, which I did not realise until he secured the debate. I am pleased to record in Hansard some of the things that have already occurred which are interesting and which are at least the building blocks for tackling what is undoubtedly a real problem, which he properly brings to this place. He properly calls on Government, in effect, to take the same attitude to people of different colour, ethnicity and background as we have taken in the past five years to women. That is what I believe the hon. Gentleman is saying. If he is not, he can tell me.
The 2020 group is chaired by Sir John Parker. He is the chairperson—interestingly, it says “chairman” in my notes—of Anglo American plc. The aim of the group is to help to create the climate and conditions in which UK business leadership can take the maximum advantage of the cultural, religious and ethnic diversity available within the population. We know the figures: 98% of all FTSE 100 chairs are white; 96% of FTSE 100 chief executive officers are white; and 95% of the FTSE 100 chief financial officers are white. As the hon. Gentleman has said, that comes from the Green Park leadership campaign and work.
As a result of the 2020 vision, the Prime Minister said that, in the next five years, we will increase the proportion of apprenticeships started by young people from black and minority ethnic communities by 20%; increase the number of BME students going to university by 20%; and work to ensure that 20,000 start-up loans are awarded to BME applicants by 2020.
That is good and laudable and it resonates with the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), who is no longer in the Chamber.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 473
He and my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) made the point that we must ensure that people from all backgrounds go into business. The point made by the hon. Member for Streatham was that we cannot wait, because we know that people of ability are in businesses and are more than capable of reaching the upper echelons but are not getting there.
There is therefore a problem. I do not know—I am asking the hon. Gentleman to help me—whether there is research on why more perfectly capable and able people who happen not to be white are not making the progress they clearly should make.
Mr Umunna: To answer the Minister’s question, Green Park in the main has produced the research. That is one reason why I think it would be fantastic if the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills asked Lord Davies of Abersoch to do on this what he did on gender. He collated the research, and I am sure the Minister’s civil servants have given her his various reports, which he produces every six months. We need the same kind of evidence-building and research on the reasons why—they may not be purely discriminatory or anything like that—to find out what blockages are stopping such people getting to the top.
Anna Soubry: I absolutely understand that. Lots of people are doing all sorts of research. After the first Opposition day debate this afternoon, I went to an event in the Shard organised by a foundation called the Pink Shoe Club. It is doing a lot of in-depth work with women to see why, for example, women in small businesses are not having the successes that men have. It is complex. One reason is access to money. Another is that, frankly—I can say this as a woman—it would seem that not enough women have enough aspiration. It is not simply the case that there is still discrimination and bias—I am sure there is and there is no debate about that—but there are lots of other factors. Obviously, with the rise of women through the ranks, there will always be that debate on the topic of children and how women fit their children in with that sort of career and advance. Any man can do it—the problem never seems to stop men having children and continuing their career. It is hugely complicated.
Mr Lammy: Does the Minister agree that chairmen and CEOs have to lead and say that the issue is important, and they have to mentor? In that sense, it is no different from politics.
Anna Soubry:
I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman—he is now my right hon. Friend for the purposes of this debate. When I was a Defence Minister, one thing that really struck me was that the people at the very top of the three armed services undoubtedly got it. They understood that it was unacceptable that there were not enough women, gay people or people from ethnic minority backgrounds making their way up through the ranks in the same way that white, straight men were. After the people at the very top got it, we began to see the most astonishing successes. For example, our armed forces have done particularly well in getting rid of the awful discrimination against gay people. Some progress has been made for people from ethnic minority backgrounds. Frankly, we could do a lot more
28 Oct 2015 : Column 474
for women. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it has to come from the top, because that is where the leadership is.
This probably sounds completely obvious to those of us who get it, but it is not about saying, “I want 50% of my board to be women, and I want more people with brown skin on my board, because that’s what we really should be doing.” It is about saying, “We’ve got to have the very best people on our board, so there should be no barriers to them getting there. If there are barriers, how can we be sure that we’re getting the best people?” It is not about saying, “We want more women and more people from ethnic minority backgrounds because that reflects society.” It is about saying, “We want the very best, and that means people with ability have to be able to get on.”
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I am listening carefully to my right hon. Friend, who is making a powerful case. She will no doubt be aware that for the past 16 years more than 50% of graduates coming out of Russell Group universities in this country are women, and that more women get first-class degrees from those leading universities than men, yet only 8% of executive directors in this country are women. She is making a powerful case for people to listen and act, but we are not seeing much action, so how will she change that in an acceptable time frame?
Anna Soubry: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention. She brings huge experience to this debate, given her role in government over the past five years. I think that we have made very good progress, and I think that it is accepted that there are now many more women sitting on FTSE 100 boards, but I accept that we are nowhere near where we should be. I take the point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull that it is not just about the FTSE 100. Indeed, there is always a danger that we forget about all the other companies. However, the FTSE 100 is a symbol, so if we can get it right in the top 100 companies the message will drop all the way down to smaller business.
Dawn Butler: As you are making such good points, may I invite you to attend the all-party group and listen to the Powerlist Foundation and Green Park as we collate all the information and work out how we can fix the problem?
Mr Speaker: I would welcome that privilege, but I think that it will be that of the Minister.
Anna Soubry: I was just thinking that you would love to attend that, Mr Speaker. I would love to attend as well, so we will see whether that can be arranged.
Michelle Donelan: While assessing the solutions, does the Minister agree that quotas are demeaning and do not foster the necessary culture of diversity?
Anna Soubry: I absolutely agree. I do not like quotas or targets, but that does not mean that I do not like ambitions—there is an important subtlety in that word. That is why I had no difficulty with some of the great campaigns to get more women into this place or on to boards. I have no difficulty with a hard drive behind ambition, but I absolutely would not go down the route of having strict legal quotas.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 475
Mr Umunna: With regard to the point that the hon. Member for Chippenham (Michelle Donelan) made about quotas, we looked at that in the previous Parliament, after the European Commission came forward with proposals. I think that the general consensus in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills was not to rule them out completely for the future, but that they are not something people want to move forward with at the moment. We wanted business to lead the charge, and it has done that. I have a practical suggestion for the Minister. The Powerlist Foundation has been mentioned, and she will be aware of the existence of the list of the 100 most powerful black Britons that is produced every year. I suggest that she meet its representatives, because it would be a very valuable resource for her in finding out about research and getting advice on what to do next. I also ask that we change the narrative reporting rules to require large listed companies in the FTSE 100 to produce statistics on the situation in their business so that they know whether there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Anna Soubry: I do not want more regulation. The hon. Gentleman would expect me, as a BIS Minister, to say that. However, he is absolutely right. If people do not look at their own institution, business or whatever to make this analysis—in my chambers, for example, we would look at our stats and our figures—then how do they know when there is a problem and where it might be? It is necessary for businesses to look at this.
The hon. Gentleman made some very powerful points. He had three asks. I hope he will forgive me if this sounds a bit wet, but I would like to not only take this away with me, but, most importantly, to meet him and the key players to look at it and advance it. The Secretary of State is from a particular background, and is no doubt the first person from that background in that role, so he will certainly have an interest in this, especially as he has a business background, as did his family.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con):
In his speech at the Conservative party conference, the Prime Minister gave a very clear direction that he wanted change so that people could overcome issues about their names and so on. I am worried about who we can point to as examples for seven, eight, nine and 10-year-olds, and teenagers, in school in my constituency. That point was made by the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna). I am hearing very positive words from the Minister, but there has to
28 Oct 2015 : Column 476
be a bit more action. The hon. Gentleman said that there has been a mixture of carrot and stick. When the Minister has finished having her conversations and looking at the information, will she at least, short of quotas and regulation, look at what sticks can be used if progress is not made?
Anna Soubry: My hon. Friend has known me for long enough to know that I do not shy away from things. I am more than happy to look at the kinds of sticks that can be put in place to encourage action now. We are not going to wait for those 10-year-olds to get up to these levels; we have to sort it out now. I know, as a woman, that when somebody has “made it” they can become an incredibly powerful force.
Anna Soubry: Yes, as a role model. I am a huge fan of mentoring. I have seen the great work that mentors can do with women, and often people from difficult backgrounds, in inspiring them and giving them a helping hand along their journey. I am a huge fan of that. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we need to get the right role models in place.
I am sorry if this is not one of those speeches whereby I just trot out all the usual lines. However, I absolutely give an undertaking that I will speak to the Secretary of State about this debate and the very powerful speech that the hon. Gentleman made. He mentioned Vince Cable. The article in the Evening Standard was very good and very powerful.
Mr Umunna: I very much welcome the Minister’s invitation to come to her Department to meet her and, I hope, the Secretary of State, and bring a group together to discuss how to move forward. I undertake to do that.
Anna Soubry: That is excellent. I undertake to see whether Lord Davies’s remit can be extended, now that he has done such great work, in the way that we want. I hope that this gives us a real basis now to do some really good, positive work.
7.44 pm.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 477
Deferred Division
Human Rights (Joint Committee): Nomination of Committee
That Fiona Bruce, Ms Karen Buck, Ms Harriet Harman, Jeremy Lefroy, Mark Pritchard and Amanda Solloway be members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights.
The House divided:
Ayes 485, Noes 61.
Division No. 99]
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Abrahams, Debbie
Adams, Nigel
Afriyie, Adam
Aldous, Peter
Alexander, Heidi
Ali, Rushanara
Allan, Lucy
Allen, Mr Graham
Allen, Heidi
Amess, Sir David
Anderson, Mr David
Andrew, Stuart
Ansell, Caroline
Argar, Edward
Atkins, Victoria
Austin, Ian
Bacon, Mr Richard
Bailey, Mr Adrian
Baker, Mr Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barclay, Stephen
Baron, Mr John
Barwell, Gavin
Bebb, Guto
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bellingham, Mr Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Jake
Berry, James
Betts, Mr Clive
Bingham, Andrew
Blackman, Bob
Blackman-Woods, Dr Roberta
Blenkinsop, Tom
Blomfield, Paul
Bone, Mr Peter
Borwick, Victoria
Bottomley, Sir Peter
Bradley, Karen
Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben
Brady, Mr Graham
Brazier, Mr Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Bridgen, Andrew
Brine, Steve
Brokenshire, rh James
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr Nicholas
Bruce, Fiona
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Buckland, Robert
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Richard
Burns, rh Sir Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Burt, rh Alistair
Butler, Dawn
Byrne, rh Liam
Cadbury, Ruth
Cairns, Alun
Cameron, rh Mr David
Campbell, rh Mr Alan
Campbell, Mr Gregory
Campbell, Mr Ronnie
Carmichael, Neil
Cartlidge, James
Cash, Sir William
Caulfield, Maria
Chalk, Alex
Champion, Sarah
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Churchill, Jo
Clark, rh Greg
Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth
Cleverly, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Colvile, Oliver
Cooper, Julie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cox, Jo
Coyle, Neil
Crabb, rh Stephen
Crausby, Mr David
Creagh, Mary
Creasy, Stella
Crouch, Tracey
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John
Cummins, Judith
Cunningham, Alex
Cunningham, Mr Jim
Dakin, Nic
David, Wayne
Davies, Byron
Davies, Chris
Davies, David T. C.
Davies, Geraint
Davies, Glyn
Davies, Dr James
Davies, Mims
De Piero, Gloria
Dinenage, Caroline
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Donelan, Michelle
Dorries, Nadine
Doughty, Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Dowd, Peter
Dowden, Oliver
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Dromey, Jack
Drummond, Mrs Flick
Duddridge, James
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Dunne, Mr Philip
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eagle, Maria
Elliott, Julie
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Elphicke, Charlie
Esterson, Bill
Eustice, George
Evans, Chris
Evans, Graham
Evans, Mr Nigel
Evennett, rh Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, rh Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Farron, Tim
Fernandes, Suella
Field, rh Frank
Field, rh Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Robert
Fletcher, Colleen
Flint, rh Caroline
Foster, Kevin
Fovargue, Yvonne
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Foxcroft, Vicky
Frazer, Lucy
Freer, Mike
Fuller, Richard
Fysh, Marcus
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Garnier, rh Sir Edward
Garnier, Mark
Gauke, Mr David
Ghani, Nusrat
Gibb, Mr Nick
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl
Glass, Pat
Glen, John
Glindon, Mary
Goldsmith, Zac
Goodman, Helen
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gove, rh Michael
Graham, Richard
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Grayling, rh Chris
Green, Chris
Green, rh Damian
Green, Kate
Greening, rh Justine
Greenwood, Lilian
Greenwood, Margaret
Grieve, rh Mr Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Gwynne, Andrew
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Haigh, Louise
Halfon, rh Robert
Hall, Luke
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, rh Matthew
Hands, rh Greg
Hanson, rh Mr David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harper, rh Mr Mark
Harrington, Richard
Harris, Carolyn
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan
Hayes, Helen
Hayes, rh Mr John
Hayman, Sue
Heald, Sir Oliver
Healey, rh John
Heaton-Harris, Chris
Heaton-Jones, Peter
Henderson, Gordon
Hendrick, Mr Mark
Hepburn, Mr Stephen
Herbert, rh Nick
Hermon, Lady
Hillier, Meg
Hinds, Damian
Hoare, Simon
Hodgson, Mrs Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollern, Kate
Hollingbery, George
Hollinrake, Kevin
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Holloway, Mr Adam
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hopkins, Kris
Howarth, rh Mr George
Howarth, Sir Gerald
Howell, John
Howlett, Ben
Huddleston, Nigel
Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy
Hunt, Tristram
Huq, Dr Rupa
Hurd, Mr Nick
Jackson, Mr Stewart
James, Margot
Jarvis, Dan
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Jenkyns, Andrea
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Boris
Johnson, Diana
Johnson, Gareth
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Gerald
Jones, Graham
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr Kevan
Jones, Mr Marcus
Jones, Susan Elan
Kane, Mike
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeley, Barbara
Kendall, Liz
Kennedy, Seema
Kirby, Simon
Knight, rh Sir Greg
Knight, Julian
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Kyle, Peter
Lancaster, Mark
Latham, Pauline
Lavery, Ian
Leadsom, Andrea
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leslie, Charlotte
Leslie, Chris
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma
Lewis, Brandon
Lewis, Mr Ivan
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Long Bailey, Rebecca
Lopresti, Jack
Lord, Jonathan
Loughton, Tim
Lucas, Ian C.
Lumley, Karen
Lynch, Holly
Mackinlay, Craig
Mackintosh, David
Mactaggart, rh Fiona
Madders, Justin
Mahmood, Mr Khalid
Mahmood, Shabana
Main, Mrs Anne
Mak, Mr Alan
Malhotra, Seema
Malthouse, Kit
Mann, John
Mann, Scott
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr Gordon
Maskell, Rachael
Matheson, Christian
Mathias, Dr Tania
May, rh Mrs Theresa
Maynard, Paul
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCartney, Jason
McCartney, Karl
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonald, Andy
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr Pat
McGovern, Alison
McInnes, Liz
McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick
McPartland, Stephen
Meale, Sir Alan
Mearns, Ian
Menzies, Mark
Mercer, Johnny
Merriman, Huw
Metcalfe, Stephen
Miller, rh Mrs Maria
Milling, Amanda
Mills, Nigel
Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew
Mordaunt, Penny
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, rh Nicky
Morris, Anne Marie
Morris, David
Morris, Grahame M.
Morris, James
Morton, Wendy
Mowat, David
Mulholland, Greg
Murray, Ian
Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Nandy, Lisa
Neill, Robert
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Norman, Jesse
Nuttall, Mr David
Onn, Melanie
Onwurah, Chi
Opperman, Guy
Osamor, Kate
Osborne, rh Mr George
Owen, Albert
Paisley, Ian
Patel, rh Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Pawsey, Mark
Penrose, John
Percy, Andrew
Perkins, Toby
Perry, Claire
Phillips, Jess
Phillips, Stephen
Phillipson, Bridget
Philp, Chris
Pincher, Christopher
Pound, Stephen
Pow, Rebecca
Powell, Lucy
Prentis, Victoria
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, John
Pursglove, Tom
Quin, Jeremy
Quince, Will
Qureshi, Yasmin
Raab, Mr Dominic
Rayner, Angela
Reed, Mr Steve
Rees, Christina
Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob
Reynolds, Emma
Rimmer, Marie
Robertson, Mr Laurence
Robinson, Gavin
Robinson, Mr Geoffrey
Robinson, Mary
Rosindell, Andrew
Rotheram, Steve
Rudd, rh Amber
Rutley, David
Ryan, rh Joan
Sandbach, Antoinette
Scully, Paul
Selous, Andrew
Shannon, Jim
Shapps, rh Grant
Sharma, Alok
Sharma, Mr Virendra
Shelbrooke, Alec
Sherriff, Paula
Shuker, Mr Gavin
Simpson, David
Simpson, rh Mr Keith
Skidmore, Chris
Skinner, Mr Dennis
Slaughter, Andy
Smeeth, Ruth
Smith, rh Mr Andrew
Smith, Angela
Smith, Cat
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Jeff
Smith, Julian
Smith, Nick
Smith, Owen
Smith, Royston
Smyth, Karin
Soames, rh Sir Nicholas
Solloway, Amanda
Soubry, rh Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mark
Starmer, Keir
Stephenson, Andrew
Stevens, Jo
Stevenson, John
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Streeter, Mr Gary
Streeting, Wes
Stride, Mel
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, rh Ms Gisela
Stuart, Graham
Sturdy, Julian
Sunak, Rishi
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Tami, Mark
Thomas, Derek
Thomas, Mr Gareth
Thomas-Symonds, Nick
Throup, Maggie
Timms, rh Stephen
Tolhurst, Kelly
Tomlinson, Justin
Tomlinson, Michael
Tracey, Craig
Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Tugendhat, Tom
Turner, Mr Andrew
Twigg, Derek
Umunna, Mr Chuka
Vara, Mr Shailesh
Vaz, Valerie
Vickers, Martin
Walker, Mr Robin
Warburton, David
Warman, Matt
Watkinson, Dame Angela
Watson, Mr Tom
Wharton, James
Whately, Helen
Wheeler, Heather
White, Chris
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Craig
Williamson, rh Gavin
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wollaston, Dr Sarah
Wood, Mike
Woodcock, John
Wragg, William
Wright, Mr Iain
Wright, rh Jeremy
Zahawi, Nadhim
Zeichner, Daniel
NOES
Ahmed-Sheikh, Ms Tasmina
Arkless, Richard
Bardell, Hannah
Black, Mhairi
Blackford, Ian
Blackman, Kirsty
Boswell, Philip
Brock, Deidre
Brown, Alan
Cameron, Dr Lisa
Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair
Chapman, Douglas
Cherry, Joanna
Crawley, Angela
Day, Martyn
Donaldson, Stuart Blair
Durkan, Mark
Edwards, Jonathan
Fellows, Marion
Ferrier, Margaret
Flynn, Paul
Gethins, Stephen
Grady, Patrick
Grant, Peter
Gray, Neil
Hendry, Drew
Hosie, Stewart
Kerevan, George
Kerr, Calum
Lamb, rh Norman
Law, Chris
Lucas, Caroline
MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan
Mc Nally, John
McCaig, Callum
McDonald, Stewart Malcolm
McDonald, Stuart C.
McLaughlin, Anne
Monaghan, Carol
Monaghan, Dr Paul
Mullin, Roger
Newlands, Gavin
Nicolson, John
O'Hara, Brendan
Oswald, Kirsten
Paterson, Steven
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robertson, rh Angus
Salmond, rh Alex
Saville Roberts, Liz
Sheppard, Tommy
Stephens, Chris
Thewliss, Alison
Thompson, Owen
Thomson, Michelle
Weir, Mike
Whiteford, Dr Eilidh
Whitford, Dr Philippa
Williams, Hywel
Wilson, Corri
Wishart, Pete
Question accordingly agreed to.
28 Oct 2015 : Column 478
28 Oct 2015 : Column 479
28 Oct 2015 : Column 480
28 Oct 2015 : Column 481
28 Oct 2015 : Column 482