“Parking charges can help to pay for maintenance and management services, and prevent these from becoming a drain on healthcare budgets. Therefore, we encourage NHS Trusts and car park operators who manage hospital car parks to sign up to this charter and to abide by its letter and spirit.”
So far, 24 hospital trusts have signed up to the charter.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. This is very worthy, and it is great to acquire this extra knowledge, but it is not really anything to do with carers. The hon. Gentleman has got on to nurses and lighting, and I understand all that, but, worthy as it is, it is not in the spirit of what we are meant to be discussing.
Mr Nuttall: Parking places are finite, Mr Deputy Speaker. If the Bill encouraged more carers to visit hospitals, which is what I think would happen, it would make it easier for them to gain access to car parks, and one consequence of that might be a knock-on effect on the income that would—
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is trying to make, but it has already been well thumbed. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it was covered very thoroughly by Mr Davies, and I do not want him to repeat everything that Mr Davies covered. I think that, in his hour and a half, Mr Davies did not leave a lot of scope, but this is one point that he made sure we were well aware of.
Philip Davies: It is worth repeating.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Only in your opinion.
Mr Nuttall: The problem with selecting a group to exempt from parking charges is the necessity of considering other groups, and deciding which groups it is fair to charge and which groups should be exempt. Is it fair to exempt a particular visitor, albeit a carer, but to charge a clinical support worker who parks at the hospital every day? It could be someone with children or other dependants, working and acting as a carer but not in receipt of carer’s allowance.
Fairfield general hospital in my constituency comes under the Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust. According to figures from the northern commissioning region for the latest available year, I understand it is one of the trusts that charges on average 11p per hour for staff to park. I have to say that the trust sets out very clearly what its charges are for hospital car parking, and it provides a range of concessions. I take note of your stricture, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I will not read them out, but it is fair to say that it has obviously looked at this question and considered the various groups that should be entitled to a concession. For example, it has picked out blue badge holders, patients and visitors
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who need to attend on a frequent or regular basis and those who need to visit because they have suffered the bereavement of a loved one.
Such a scheme would be put in danger, and the trust would have to revisit it, which would undoubtedly have an effect on the viability of that scheme. Is it fair to charge a spouse or partner of a cancer patient who is still working and does not get carer’s allowance if they are too busy to get certified as eligible for hospital parking charge exemption, as required under clause 5 of this Bill? The Bill would require them to be approved in advance, and there will be many other deserving cases not covered by the Bill. The Bill does not seek to exempt people because of their low incomes, which is one a weakness. Some of the carers may well be in straitened circumstances, but there may be others who would be able to pay the charge, whereas some members of other groups would not be in that position.
The conclusion may well be that the fairest answer is not to exempt any groups but to make car parking free for everyone, as has happened in Scotland and Wales. Aligning us with those countries would be a popular idea with many people, but we must not forget that it would mean taking hundreds of millions of pounds out of the healthcare budget. The 2009 impact assessment suggested that the cost then would be between £140 million and £180 million. In six years’ time, it is reasonable to assume that cost would have increased enough to pay for 13,000 band 1 clinical support workers or 9,000 band 5 nurses. We have to ask what we think it is right to spend the healthcare budget on: patient care or free or reduced car parking.
Mr Rees-Mogg: Perhaps my hon. Friend intends to mention it, but he is ignoring the reduction in the availability of spaces that would come about without charges—people would be able to park all day, and there would be much less control. It is not going to make it easier for carers to park if all the spaces are taken and they are blocked.
Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend is right. The fact is that in September 2014 the then Health Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), noted in a debate that 40% of hospitals now do not charge for hospital car parking. They are likely to be in rural areas where there is less demand for parking—where it is easier to provide parking and there is less pressure on it. I suspect the reality is that a hospital with a car park in a central location in a busy town or a major city centre has no choice but to have a car parking charge. That is the reality of life. If it were be free, there would just be chaos; essentially, it would mean that those who really needed to get close to the hospital would not be able to do so. There has to be some system in place to protect the spaces that are close to the hospital for those who need them. Whatever system we have, there is no simple answer to that.
What we do know is that the present system of having local decision making is working. Fairfield hospital allows 30 minutes of free parking for everyone; then it costs just £1 for up to one hour. In the constituency of the hon. Member for Burnley, by contrast, people would pay £1.90 for up to three hours’ parking. There is a huge disparity across the country. We heard earlier—in an intervention from the hon. Member for Streatham
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(Mr Umunna), I think—about the costs in central London, which are understandably very much higher than in the provinces.
While the Bill does explain the generality of what is required, it does not explain how the system would work in practice. In the opening remarks of the hon. Member for Burnley, she mentioned that the system would work by way of having a badge in the car window. I am happy to be corrected if I misheard. That is the first time I had heard that. It would perhaps have helped all of us if that had been in an explanatory note saying this was how the scheme would work. She also mentioned that in some hospitals people have to pay on entry—I think the hon. Lady is nodding. That is all very well, but I am not quite sure how simply having a voucher in the car window would help in that scenario. It must be more complex than that, and some sort of token would be needed in order to get through the barrier.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The question is not how people get into a car park; it is whether there is free concessionary parking for carers. We are dealing with that, not the detail of how we get there. Obviously if the Bill were to go into Committee, these would be the areas that Members would want to cover there. I want to concentrate on where we are now and how we keep to where we want to be within the Bill.
Mr Nuttall: I will move on from that detail. I accept it is a detail, but it is an important detail.
Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I agree, but we have heard about all the different scenarios previously and in detail. That is what worries me. We can get bogged down in repeating details, and I know the hon. Gentleman does not want to do that.
Mr Nuttall: I want to move on to the devolution of healthcare. It was only very briefly touched on earlier, but it is of particular significance to my constituency, because, as Members will be aware, it is proposed to devolve healthcare to Greater Manchester. From April next year, it will be the first English region to get full control of its health spending. The situation in this regard is not at all clear. The Bill states that it will apply to the whole of England, but if healthcare is devolved, will Greater Manchester be exempt on the same basis that Scotland and Wales are exempt? Healthcare spending has been devolved to those countries and they are then excluded from this Bill.
Julian Knight: It is very interesting that my hon. Friend mentions devolution in this context. Should there be devolution from next April in the Greater Manchester area and if this legislation were introduced soon afterwards, could the numbers that devolution has been predicated on no longer be correct? Could we have to go back to the drawing-board in terms of Manchester devolution and how the finances are worked out in respect of hospital parking charges?
Mr Nuttall: I will not go down that road, Mr Deputy Speaker, although my hon. Friend has made a good point. His area could well be affected by any future devolution.
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Philip Davies: I did not get a chance to talk about this earlier. Does my hon. Friend know whether, under the Bill, the Government would reimburse the hospitals for the lost revenue, or whether the hospitals’ balance sheets would have to take a hit?
Mr Nuttall: The Bill is silent on that point. It might well be that, in the mind of the hon. Member for Burnley, some mechanism would be put in place to reimburse the trusts, depending on the number of carers registered with them. Or perhaps she would simply say to them, “Sorry, if you’ve got a lot of carers in your area, you’ll just have to suffer the consequences.” It is not clear what would happen.
I want to turn to a drafting matter that has not been touched on. Clause 1 is entitled “Duty to exempt qualifying carers from hospital car parking charges”, and subsection (1)
“Health Care providing bodies shall make arrangements to exempt qualifying carers engaged in any of the qualifying activities listed in section 2(2) from charges for parking their cars”.
The question that arises is how wide the scope of healthcare facilities actually is. Clause 1(2)(b) states that the duty in that previous subsection is the responsibility of “any private hospital”. I personally believe it would be a step too far if we were to legislate on what private companies were allowed to charge for and to whom they should give exemptions.
Clause 1 provides for “arrangements” to be made for “qualifying carers”, while clause 4 provides for a “scheme” for “eligible carers”. Why does there have to be a difference? Why does one set of carers get arrangements while another get a scheme? It appears that schemes are more complicated than arrangements. Clause 1(4) requires the arrangements for qualifying carers to be in place within 12 months, whereas in the case of eligible carers, 12 months are allowed for a scheme to be submitted to the Secretary of State, and it does not have to be implemented until a year and a half after the Bill becomes law. If the matter is so urgent, why will it take a year and a half for carers to become entitled to the exemption?
It is a pleasure to welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think there has been an error in the printed version of the Bill. In the printed copy that I have, clause 4(1) states:
“Health Care providing bodies shall establish schemes to exempt eligible carers engaged in any of the qualifying activities listed in section 2(1)(b) from hospital car park charges and submit such schemes to the Secretary of State within 12 months of this Act coming into force.”
However, clause 2(1)(b) states:
“A qualifying carer under section 1(1) is a person who…has an underlying entitlement to the Carer’s Allowance.”
The provision in clause 4(1) has been amended online to refer to section 2(2), which is the correct subsection. Section 2(2) is indeed the subsection that sets out what a qualifying activity is. It states:
“A qualifying activity under section 1(1) is transporting, visiting or otherwise accompanying or facilitating”—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing):
Order. As the hon. Gentleman has drawn my attention to a matter concerning the activities of the House—namely, the printing of the Bill—I will for the sake of clarity make it clear that the Bill that I have, and that I assume
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other people have, clearly refers to section 2(2) and not section 2(1). I am happy to clarify that point as the hon. Gentleman made his point directly to me.
Mr Chope: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr Chope: Further to what you have just said, Madam Deputy Speaker. At the top of the Bill of which you and I have a copy, it states:
“This is a corrected copy and is being issued free of charge to all known recipients of the original publication.”
Mr Nuttall: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think we have a solution. It does not say that on my copy. I must have a first edition, and it might be more valuable! It is priced at £3, but now we have discovered that it is a rare first edition, it might be worth a lot more. I am willing to raffle it and donate the proceeds to Carers UK. I am glad that the matter has been corrected, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am sorry if I inadvertently addressed my comments to you personally. I was not trying to suggest that you had had any involvement in the preparation of the Bill.
Madam Deputy Speaker: For clarification, the hon. Gentleman has done nothing wrong. The printing of material such as this is a matter for the House and a matter for the Chair.
Mr Nuttall: I shall bring my comments to a conclusion. Given the real likelihood that the effect of the Bill will be to reduce the income from car parking, it must be a possibility that the legislation would increase the cost of the NHS to the public purse. In the first year of the abolition of parking charges in Scotland, the sum of £1.4 million was given to Scottish health boards by the Scottish Government, so I wonder whether the Bill might require a money resolution in due course, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley has suggested.
It is a worthy aim to try to help carers with their hospital car parking charges. In reality, however, there are a number of problems. Fundamentally, we are faced with this question: what should £200 million be spent on—healthcare or free parking? The answer might be to say that we will exempt only one group, but if we exempt carers, should we not exempt staff, for example, or armed forces personnel? The list soon expands. However well-intentioned the Bill is, we have to look at the problem in the round. No one likes paying parking charges, but the fact is that, alongside general taxation, income from car parking ultimately supports front-line services.
I commend the hon. Member for Burnley for her work on the Bill but, for the reasons I have outlined, I cannot support it today.
12.38 pm
Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab): I should like to declare my support for the Bill, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper) on bringing it to the House today. We have had an interesting debate. It has been enlightening for me; I am not often here on Fridays, and I have been intrigued by the way in which the discussions have gone on.
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My hon. Friend made a good point about the amount of money that carers save the NHS as a result of the unpaid voluntary work they do, attending hospitals, caring for friends, relatives and loved ones and relieving the pressure and stress that our support workers, nurses and doctors are under. When we talk about money resolutions and finance, we need to remember that not everything has a financial cost. We cannot put a price on everything, and the amount that carers save our NHS is priceless. It is not something we can quantify. However, I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that the amount of money that carers save our NHS is far over and above what they might bring in in car parking fees.
I am speaking from the point of view of a former NHS worker. I used to work at North Manchester general hospital, which is now part of Pennine Acute Hospitals Trust to which the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) referred. He spoke about the trust as something of an exemplar in the way that it advertised car parking to patients and visitors. Having worked there for a long time, my experience is that its policies caused a lot of confusion. Frequently, when I turned up to work, visitors asked me whether they should pay, whether I had any change for the parking machines, and whether I could help them with where they were going. Not wanting to be too critical of my ex-employer, I have to say that I do not think that Pennine Acute is a shining light when it comes to dealing with car parking for patients and visitors.
Mr Nuttall: I do not know when the hon. Lady left the employ of that particular trust, but it seems from its website that it has tried to simplify things by having different coloured signs for different groups—green signs for patients, blue signs for blue badge holders and pink signs for staff. It seems that it is making an effort. I am sure that the hon. Lady knows more than me whether its system is working in practice.
Liz McInnes: What the hon. Gentleman said was very telling. He said that he had looked at the website. Not every patient or visitor has access to the website, however. I agree that the system is clear on the website, but it is not clear in reality. When someone turns up with a sick relative or a distressed patient, they do not have time to go through the colour coding. Pennine Acute could improve its signage, but that is not why we are here, or why we are talking about this Bill.
The hon. Gentleman asked how long I had worked at the hospital. I started at North Manchester general in 1987, and I was there when hospital car parking charges were first introduced. I remember the disquiet that was caused to staff, who have always had to pay those charges. Many people do not realise that staff have to pay car parking charges at hospitals.
Liz McInnes:
I appreciate that, but it always comes as a surprise to the wider public to hear that staff have to pay to park at their own place of work. I am sure that there would be an uproar if such charges were introduced for our exclusive car park facilities in this place. I know that the staff’s objections to having to pay to park at their place of work have been ignored. We have been protesting about it for many, many years. However, I am
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not here to talk about staff; I just wanted to make people aware that that practice still goes on. I have always seen it as a tax on coming to work.
We are here to talk about carers. I want to use Pennine Acute as an example. Most recently, it has engaged a private parking company, the income of which comes solely from administering fines to people who have parked incorrectly or who have not paid the right amount of money. The business of this private parking company depends on people contravening parking regulations; it actually wants people to contravene parking regulations, because that is the only way that it gets any income.
When I worked at the hospital, I was a workplace rep for Unite the union. I dealt with a lot of staff who were very, very distressed about the letters they had received from this company, demanding a fine that had to be paid by a certain day, and if they did not pay it by that day, the fine would go up. They were given the opportunity to appeal. If the appeal was not successful, some people found that they had to pay an inflated fine because they had had the temerity to appeal.
With regard to my hon. Friend’s private Member’s Bill, my main concern is about carers. What would happen to them if they were to get one of those bills? At least members of staff, if they are in a trade union, can go to a rep and get some help to deal with the situation. I worry about private parking contractors, because they exist solely to make money out of people. Exempting carers from car parking charges would bring much needed clarity to the matter. It would stop these exploitative companies from making money out of them.
Julian Knight: Could the hon. Lady’s local hospital trust not write such a policy into its contract? It would then have discretion over the fines. It would not need to fine carers in a particular situation. That would give them some flexibility, whereas in this scenario, there is no flexibility at all.
Liz McInnes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I am not clear what his point is. He said that the trust could put it into a contract that carers would not be charged—[Interruption.] He means in the contracts of the parking contractor.
Julian Knight indicated assent.
Liz McInnes: That would bring us to the issue of how we identify carers, which we have already talked about at length. If we introduce this Bill, it would be clear that carers were exempt. They could approach the hospital trust with evidence that they are in receipt of carer’s allowance. Their registration number would be taken and a badge would be produced with that registration number on, so that there would be no possibility of people transferring permits. They would be valid for only one vehicle. It would take a lot of the stress and worry out of parking at hospital for carers. There has been a lot of talk about how difficult it would be to administer the schemes, but actually it would be fairly simple.
Much is wrong with hospital car parking charges. I applaud the Scottish and Welsh health services for removing the charges. The imposition of car parking charges in England means that staff and others are
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being treated as a cash cow. While the rate that those charges are put up every single year is way above inflation, hospital staff are suffering from either a pay freeze, or a 1% below-inflation pay rise, which they get only if the Secretary of State deigns to bestow it on them. We really need to look at the whole situation with car parking charges in English hospitals, but at the moment we are considering parking for carers.
At Pennine Acute, there were informal arrangements, to which the hon. Member for Bury North has already referred. Frequent visitors who were in the know could approach the ward manager or departmental manager to ask for help and an exemption from car parking charges if that was available. People need to know that these exemptions exist; that is the problem. This Bill would not cost the NHS a great deal of money, because those in the know are aware that they can ask for exemptions. This Bill is about clarity, so that the exemptions are available to everybody and nobody is kept in the dark about them. That is why we need this Bill.
I fully support the Bill. Points have been made about hospitals introducing car parking fees, but unless a hospital is near a major shopping centre or bang in the middle of a town centre, people will park at a hospital only to visit, attend as a patient or carer or work there, and people should not be penalised for doing any of those things.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley for introducing this Bill, and I hope that she is successful in removing charges for carers and bringing much needed clarity to what is a very confused situation. Legislation is long overdue. Hopefully, following the introduction of this Bill, we will look at charges for others—patients, visitors and staff. If it is good enough for Scotland and Wales, it is good enough for England. The policy would be very well received in Heywood and Middleton as well as across the country.
12.50 pm
Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): I also congratulate the hon. Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper) on securing the debate and drawing up the Bill. It seems many hours since you spoke, but I remember that you spoke powerfully and are clearly a strong advocate for carers and for your local NHS. I also think that Government Members will be grateful for the fact that you also paid tribute to the actions of—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. I always let Members get away with this mistake once, and sometimes twice, but the hon. Gentleman has used the word “you” three times. “You” refers to the Chair, and the hon. Lady is the hon. Lady. I am having to say this every day and it is a long time since the general election, so people really ought to be able to take it on board by now. The hon. Gentleman is not the only person making this mistake, so he should not feel bad about it.
Julian Knight: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will now address only the Chair using that particular word.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Burnley, but unfortunately I cannot support the Bill. However, like my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies)
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and many other Members who have spoken, I support the fairer hospital parking that she is trying to achieve. I want to share my experience in Solihull as a campaigner for fairer hospital parking, as it has direct relevance to how we approach the issue as a country and to the Bill.
Many hon. Members have mentioned their hospitals and the experience they had when parking charges were introduced. For my constituents in Solihull, parking charges were introduced not only to bring extra revenue into the NHS and front-line services but to ensure that hospital car parks were free for the use for which they are intended. We have had many difficulties in Solihull because the hospital is located near the town centre and, as that is a popular area, people have used the car park all day while they have been shopping. Many people who needed to use the facility at the hospital were therefore unable to do so and might have parked illegally, receiving fines at a later date. Hospital parking charges, although very unpleasant, are in many cases necessary, particularly at sites close to town centres. As we live in a very densely populated country, there are not many hospitals that are so far from town centres that it would be an easy win not to have any charges whatsoever. The car parks might still be misused in the way that I have explained.
Over time, hospital parking charges have grown exponentially. At the moment, in the three hospitals that make up the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust—Solihull, Good Hope and the Heartlands—charges can be up to £5.75, but for just one hour they can be £2.75. Again, people have to guess how long they will stay, which is unfortunate. I have looked at the contracts that our local hospitals have signed and in my view there is an excessive charge on the provider from the private companies involved. I am not happy with many aspects of these contracts.
Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend says that he has looked at these contracts. Has he noticed how long they were for? I am rather concerned that if the Bill is introduced, it would affect the viability of those contracts.
Julian Knight: My hon. Friend makes a good point. There are often penalty charges which would mean unintended consequences if the Bill came into law and a real hit to the bottom line for our hospitals.
I have questioned some of the charges for our local hospital trust. Repairing white lines, barriers and machines is very expensive and I feel that a Bill that changes the parameters on which these contracts are based could have unintended consequences for the foundation of much of our funding in the NHS. The problem is probably to do with historical management issues regarding the signing of particular contracts, and many hon. Members might wish to question their hospital trusts, as I have.
For me, the final straw that led to my campaign, which has now run for 18 months, was the fact that I was told that those receiving cancer treatment had had certain exemptions withdrawn. As many hon. Members will be aware, chemotherapy treatment can often require 20 or 30 visits for the patient, those caring for them and their visiting friends. I thought that withdrawing the exemption went too far and it made me much more interested in campaigning for more fairness.
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Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend not fear that the Bill might make things worse for members of the group?
Julian Knight: My hon. Friend makes a good point. The wording of the Bill and the fact that it covers just one narrow group could mean that charges go up for other groups that are not covered by it. That is an unfortunate and unintended consequence.
I have helped to lead the way with the campaign in Solihull, but it has been about individual engagement with the hospital trust rather than introducing national legislation and a one-size-fits-all policy. As we have explored in our discussions, hospitals have a great deal of discretion in the charges they can put in place. The August 2014 NHS patient, visitor and staff parking principles are much broader than the Bill in allowing people from different groups to have free or reduced hospital parking. As I see it, individual engagement is the way to go.
In Solihull, we have had many achievements through discussion and through highlighting particular issues. For example, earlier in the debate we discussed advertising and websites and it was pointed out that many people did not know what monthly or weekly concessions there are. I have urged my local hospital trust to improve the provision of that information and they have put the concessions up front and centre on their website, so it is now easy to see that information.
Mr Nuttall: The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) made the point that not everybody has access to the internet, particularly many elderly people. Does my hon. Friend agree that we should perhaps consider ensuring that information about car parking charges is included in every letter sent out offering an appointment at a hospital?
Julian Knight: My hon. Friend makes a good point and I have urged my hospital trust to make the information available not only online, which always seems to be the catch-all approach of any organisation, but in the hospital, so that patients and visitors do not have to come into the hospital and take up the time of staff and administration staff to clarify something that could easily be set out in a leaflet, a letter or a small poster by a desk.
In Solihull, a reduction in the price of monthly tickets and concessions was the direct response to the lobbying done by me and local councillors. We have also seen a doubling of the free parking time at Solihull hospital from 15 minutes to 30 minutes. At the hospital it can often take up to 15 minutes just to find a space, so I urged the trust to increase this time, and the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust kindly saw fit to double the time. These are small wins, but they are an example of what can be achieved through individual engagement, by putting our case and understanding that there is not an endless supply of money and that we have to be sensitive to the bottom line—the finances of the NHS—because if we are not careful, we may end up depriving the NHS of vital cash.
My own Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust has a deficit—this is in the public domain—of £29 million for the first five months of the financial year. So seriously is this viewed that the management of the University Hospitals Birmingham has been brought in to help close the black hole in the finances. I welcome that
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move, but it shows that this is no time to destabilise NHS finances or those of individual hospital trusts in our areas.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. Friend has been generous in giving way. I have listened to the arguments and the one problem I have is this: should we be using car parking charges to fund the NHS? Should we not fund the NHS properly? I am slightly uncomfortable with that.
Julian Knight: I understand entirely where my hon. Friend is coming from and in an ideal world I would agree. I would like to see free hospital parking. However, I recognise that there are pressures on our car parks, and that car parking charges at a hospital have to reflect the car parking charges in the local area; otherwise we will have the problem that we encountered in Solihull prior to the introduction of charges, when people were parking at the hospital and then shopping. It is a fine balancing act and it should be dealt with by individual areas on a case-by-case basis.
Mr Chope: Does my hon. Friend not think it reasonable that the costs of hospital car parks should be met by the users of those car parks, rather than by eating into money that would otherwise be available for clinical care?
Julian Knight: My hon. Friend makes a good point. During my election campaign in the course of canvassing and door-knocking, we mentioned the hospital parking campaign and the response was mainly positive. Obviously, as soon as people are asked whether they want free hospital parking, they say, “Yes, absolutely”, but the other question was what this means for nurses and doctors and for the bottom line of our local hospital’s finances.
Dr Huq: Is not the point that the Bill does not propose a free-for-all for everyone, but free hospital parking just for those on carer’s allowance, which is a paltry £62 a week? These are not carers who come through an agency and indirectly through the local authority and who add to the mounting social care bill. These people keep the social care bill down. We pay them carer’s allowance, and if all their money goes on parking charges, they will be deterred from coming into hospital to do the job that they do.
Julian Knight: I agree that we must value carers. However, the Bill is very narrow in its focus, whereas a much greater number of people could be covered by the guidelines and the NHS patient, visitor and staff car parking principles. There are opportunities to engage in our localities with our local hospitals and local hospital trusts in order to encourage them to expand existing provision. There is the possibility of working on a case-by-case basis, rather than by means of a rather blunt instrument. I take the hon. Lady’s point, but we should look at hospital car parking charges in the round, not just as they affect carers. [Interruption.] The Bill is about carers. The subject matter, though, is a much greater variety of people who use hospital car parks, including many vulnerable people, as we know.
I suggest that other hon. Members follow what has been done by my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), the Minister without Portfolio,
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and my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and engage with the local hospital trust, put pressure on the trust and get it to reduce the complexity of charges and to ensure that when it puts charges in place, they reflect the local area. For example, I made a case to my hospital trust that we have three hours’ free parking at council car parks in Solihull, so why do people have to pay £2.75 for just one hour at the local hospital? Why is that not in tune with the local economy and the local environment?
More widely, on the people who are not covered by the Bill, I have mentioned those who may be covered by the NHS patient, visitor and staff car parking principles, but what about people who do not have a car? What about carers who travel by public transport? I was involved in a campaign in Solihull to help save the No. 73 bus service, which was a lifeline to Heartlands hospital. If it had been cancelled, people in Shirley in the west of my constituency would have had to travel by three buses in order to attend hospital appointments. If there is any extra money, surely it would be better for it to be directed at them as they are more likely to be on a lower income and potentially in a more vulnerable position than those driving and using the car park.
In conclusion, I welcome the sentiments of the Bill and I applaud the hon. Member for Burnley for introducing it. We have had a vigorous debate. There is a patchwork of provision and it is up to us as individual Members of Parliament, as well as local councils and bodies such as chambers of commerce, to come together in order to try to get the best possible deal for our area. That, in some instances, may include many more people than are the subject of the Bill.
Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend touches on a key point, which I mentioned briefly—that is, there are competing pressures in different parts of the country, depending on whether a Member represents a rural area or an inner-city area.
Julian Knight: My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. In his speech he also touched on devolution. In my area we have the West Midlands combined authority coming to the fore. Although it does not currently have responsibility for NHS provision, that may come down the track towards us, as in the case of Manchester, which takes charge of its NHS in April 2016. The concern is that although these devolution packages are very tightly costed, if we suddenly add an extra expense in the form of NHS provision and take away a valuable income stream, that may damage the devolution project and other services may end up being cut.
I support the intention of the Bill and the heartfelt efforts of the hon. Member for Burnley, but it does not take account of an approach that I prefer—local engagement and following the guidelines, which are much more wide ranging than those in the Bill.
1.9 pm
Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper) on her important private Member’s Bill from which, thanks to Conservative Members’ contributions, a somewhat epic debate has ensued. I am pleased to
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speak in favour of the Bill. I have broken my usual rule of Fridays in Ealing Action and Bedford Park to be here since 9.30 am. The Bill is an important piece of legislation, which we need. I shall be brief.
It is important to point out that we are talking about carers who are in receipt of carer’s allowance of £62.10 a week. To receive this, they have to do at least 35 hours of caring for an older or disabled person, and they are not allowed any extra income above £110 a week. The state is paying these people in recognition of their caring duties, which take a burden off the health service. If all that is going on car parking fees, then it is a false economy. Waiving their car parking fees alone would pay dividends for the future.
I have elderly parents; in fact, I lost my father a year ago.
Mr Nuttall: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Dr Huq: I need to do a TV interview that I am late for, so I wish to make progress; I will not be giving way.
My parents have had all sorts of ailments. We lost my dad a year ago last September so I have been in and out of Ealing hospital as a visitor, and I have grumbled that it seems to cost no less than £4 for an in-and-out visit. People on carer’s allowance can be there for days on end, or hours on end, and the cost for them can rack up into the hundreds. This is even more punitive given that they are on £62.10 a week and bear a heavy burden as it is.
For these carers, the stress of parking is at best, the last thing they need, as my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley said, and at worst, on a more generous interpretation, bordering on a slap in the face. They are people who negotiate difficult situations. My own mother has dementia, and people with such conditions can fly off the handle and be quite erratic. If someone is negotiating that, or, say, dealing with someone’s incontinence pads, they do not want to be fumbling about for the correct change, as my hon. Friend so graphically described. This is the least we can do, as a decent society, in recognition of the enormous contribution that carers make. They are almost the social glue of the NHS; it would fall apart without them.
Yesterday in this Chamber we discussed benefit changes and how the safety net is tightening. It is important to consider these parking charges, which are sky-high in any case. In 2008, my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) said to the local press that they are a stealth tax on the poor. They are already steep, but disproportionately so for carers. We heard research quoted earlier. Leeds University and Carers UK have estimated that £119 billion a year is saved on the adult social care bill through having these unpaid carers who just receive an allowance.
Conservative Members have said that it is fine to exercise discretion. At Ealing hospital, that amounts to a handful of spaces, and there are quite strict criteria. Often, a situation that would result in an unpaid carer taking the person they care for into hospital would arise from sudden things that cannot be predicted, and the four spaces, or whatever, that some London North West Healthcare NHS Trust hospitals reserve as part of their discretionary allocation may be gone.
Members on both sides of the House are lobbied all the time from powerful groups with identical emails that clog up our in-boxes, but this is about people who
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are the unsung heroes of our system. It should not be those who shout the loudest—the powerful lobby groups—who get their way. According to the figure I got from the House of Commons Library last night, there are 944,000 of these unsung heroes, but I have heard different figures here today. Anyway, on the basis of a cost-benefit analysis, a substantial number of people are saving the NHS money in this way. It is a matter of respect that as a country we should be saying thank you to these carers and we should appreciate their vital contribution. We have the power to change all this today and to deal with the fact that they are being penalised.
We would not want carers to be put off going to hospital because of these charges. That is the logical extension of the 81% rise in NHS West London CCG’s car parking charges. When I lobbied it and said that this is a constant issue in my postbag and my in-box, I was told, “It’s the commercial car parking providers you should take this up with.” Does the House want to be seen to be siding with commercial car parking providers or with carers in our society?
Campaign groups such as Contact a Family, the Alzheimer’s Society and the Multiple Sclerosis Society are all supporting this Bill. Even The Sun, which is not usually a newspaper that supports Labour, is backing the Park the Charges campaign.
Mr Nuttall: It has supported Labour.
Dr Huq: Not in recent times. It has not supported the Labour party in any recent general election. Historically, Rupert Murdoch’s politics are not aligned with ours.
I urge Members in all parts of this House to do the decent thing and support this Bill in the strongest possible terms. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley on leading this extraordinary debate. I suppose I should also congratulate some Conservative Members on the show of stamina to which they have subjected us.
1.15 pm
Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Madam Deputy Speaker.
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq). Like many speakers, she made some good points, but I am not sure that the conclusions she drew from her analysis were the correct ones. We are all full of admiration for the people who do the caring—the carers—across our country, some 6 million of them. If we want to help them more than we already do, we should do it in a general way rather than by supplying free benefits in kind in specific areas, because that inevitably creates a distortion in the marketplace. The hon. Lady says that some carers in her constituency are being put off going to hospital by these charges, and her solution is to provide them with free parking, but what about the carers who do not have cars and go to hospital using other forms of transport? What are we going to do to help them? As soon as one introduces some sort of exemption, it creates a distortion in the marketplace.
In this debate, we have heard, if nothing else, how complex this issue is. One of the great benefits of Friday debates is that we are able to get down to the nitty-gritty of proposals like this, which, on the face of it, seem ever so attractive. I would not wish to criticise The Sun in
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any way, but sometimes it does not get down into enough of the detail and just goes for the broad-brush approach without looking at, in particular, the unintended consequences flowing from this sort of legislation.
The hon. Lady said that there is stress in parking in difficult situations, and so there is, but there is even greater stress if one cannot find anywhere to park at all. Many of my constituents have for years complained of a lack of parking facilities at Royal Bournemouth hospital. The hospital has been trying to increase its parking facilities but has encountered difficulties from the local council, which takes the view that creating more car parking spaces generates more traffic and therefore more congestion on the roads. The trust itself has invested a lot in improved car parking, and if the proposals to consolidate healthcare provision on the Royal Bournemouth site in Dorset go ahead, it will need a heck of a lot more car parking provision. It is by no means clear how that would be affordable unless the hospital itself is able to put in place funding arrangements so that the capital provision can be paid off through the income generated from charges. The hon. Lady’s speech raised some real issues that underline the Bill’s weakness.
I want to pick up on some of the points that have not been addressed. Clause 1 would provide a duty to exempt qualifying carers from hospital car parking charges, and clause 2(2) sets out the qualifying activities, including
“transporting, visiting or otherwise accompanying or facilitating a person to whom the care…is provided and who has been admitted to, or is attending, a health care facility for diagnosis, testing, treatment or other appointment relating to their health.”
It is very difficult to police such things. If somebody who was entitled to an exemption parked in the Royal Bournemouth car park and then, for part of their stay, went over to the Crown court, which is within easy walking distance and has a similar parking problem, how would that be policed? It would be policed only by having more personnel, who cost money, and that, as often happens, could result in confrontational situations. It is incumbent on the Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper), to explain how that will be dealt with.
Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that it would have been helpful if we had been given an explanation of the costs of administering the proposed scheme? We could then have based this debate on some actual figures.
Mr Chope: The costs may vary from one hospital to another, but it is clear from the debate that the hon. Member for Burnley does not have the first clue about what the costs would be. We have established that they would be significant, but we have not established who would pay them. Would they be borne by the taxpayer through subventions to hospitals? The Scottish health boards were given £1.4 million to implement a similar policy.
If the money does not come from the taxpayer, would it come from increasing the charges of those who will continue to pay them? My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) made some really good points about that. According to the Government’s guidance, they believe that concessions should be disbursed more widely than just to carers. The perverse and unintended consequence of the Bill—this would be inevitable, in my
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view—would be that higher charges would be borne by people who are worse-off. To take a topical example, a working family on tax credits may be a lot worse-off financially than a carer affected by this Bill, but they would have to pay higher charges to use the hospital car park. That is an example of the perversity of the Bill.
Barbara Keeley: If I ever get the chance to make my speech I will come to this, but it is not just families who are on tax credits. A lot of working carers on the carer’s allowance will be hit by tax credit cuts, too.
Mr Chope: I hear what the hon. Lady says. I will not go down that route, Madam Deputy Speaker, because we have had enough debate about tax credits and I do not think you want time taken up on them. My point is that many people less well-off than the carers exempted under the Bill will actually pay for the cost of such exemptions. Interestingly, the hon. Lady did not disagree with that point in her intervention, but that is one of the Bill’s perverse consequences.
There is another problem. Clause 1(1) states:
“providing bodies shall make arrangements to exempt…carers engaged in…the qualifying activities…from charges for parking their cars in spaces provided for service users at hospitals”.
It does not state by whom the spaces are provided.
Mr Nuttall: I apologise that I did not cover that point in more detail earlier. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The implication of the clause is surely that other car park providers may be affected, not just NHS hospitals that provide car parks.
Mr Chope: Exactly. Public bodies increasingly decide to delegate non-specialist responsibilities to other specialists; for example, they delegate to car parking companies the supply and building of car parking facilities close to a hospital. It is unclear from the clause to what extent the people providing the spaces—the spaces may not be provided directly by the hospital, but are designed to be used by those visiting it—will be caught by the provision. Their investment and their business plan may therefore be compromised by the Bill. The hon. Member for Burnley did not make that clear.
Perhaps that matter could be dealt with by amendments in Committee. Many other amendments have been suggested in this debate, particularly during the hon. Lady’s speech. She said that such matters could be dealt with by amendments, but a lot of them would not actually be within the scope of the Bill. That problem arises because the Bill is very narrow in scope. It proposes to exempt carers from hospital car parking charges and is for connected purposes, which seem to be centred around facilities similar to hospital car parks. It is very worrying that, even during this debate, the sponsor of the Bill has suggested that it is far from perfect and said that she would like to amend it. In fact, some of the amendments she has in mind would go beyond the Bill’s scope.
Clause 1(2) extends much further than national health service hospitals. There has not been much discussion of the other facilities mentioned in paragraph (a), such as a
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“walk-in centre, GP practice or other health care facility to which patients are admitted, or which they attend, for diagnosis, testing, treatment or other appointment”.
Without exception, GP practices in my constituency provide free car parking for everybody. The last thing a GP practice wants is not to have the flexibility to respond to an increase in demand by introducing charges or restrictions. It is inherent in the clause that a qualifying carer who parks beyond the limit would be exempt. However, at a motorway service area, for example, if people stay for longer than two hours, they can no longer park for free and are subject to a charge. If GP surgeries, walk-in centres or other facilities are subjected to a lot of illegal parking—people taking advantage of their car parks but not using the facilities or using them for only a short time—they might choose to impose charges on people who are there for more than two hours. To what extent would people be exempt from those charges under the Bill? How difficult or easy would it be to enforce against them?
Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend is touching on an important point that has not been covered this morning. We have blithely said that about 40% of hospitals do not charge at all. Given what he has just said, does he agree that the Bill would be likely to result in some of those hospitals being required to introduce charging or some other restriction?
Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That brings home the point that this Bill has not really been thought through. To what extent has it been discussed with GP practices? I doubt whether it has been discussed with them at all.
If one wanted to bring forward a Bill under the private Members’ Bill procedure and give it a good chance of success, I would have thought that one would ensure that it was very narrowly focused, specific and precise. If the hon. Member for Burnley had discussed her Bill with me before she presented it, I would have given her the same advice that I have given to many other hon. Members from both sides of the House who have aspired to make progress with their Bills: it is better to have a small, modest measure that is carefully thought through than something that is general and easily open to different interpretations, which makes it unlikely to make progress.
On that theme, the inclusion in clause 1(2)(b) of private hospitals is completely absurd. Why do we want to drag private hospitals into the issue of whether to impose car parking charges on carers? I am happy to give way to the promoter of the Bill so that she can explain why she wanted to bring private hospitals into the Bill. Most of the discussion has been about NHS provision. Why does she want to interfere in the private sector? In my experience, most private hospitals do not have any charges for parking.
Julie Cooper: To clarify that point, NHS patients have the opportunity to use private hospital services. The carers who transport them there may well still need access to free car parking.
Mr Chope: So the hon. Lady is saying that this provision would apply to private hospitals when they were treating NHS patients and that it would only affect the carers of NHS patients, rather than the carers of private patients.
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Julie Cooper indicated assent.
Mr Chope: Of course, it does not say that in the Bill. That is a point of detail that I am sure was just overlooked in the drafting. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that clearer.
“car parking spaces provided directly or indirectly, including under contract, by or on behalf of a health care provider…for patients and other users to whom car parking charges would otherwise apply.”
Again, my submission is that that goes far too wide because it drags in contractual provisions in the private sector and could impose directly on hospitals that have contracted out by agreement to private providers. They might have said, “Please build this car park and provide spaces for our patients, and in return we will allow you to charge patients,” and a business plan will have been drawn up accordingly. Clause 1(3) would effectively drive a coach and horses through that contractual arrangement. It could result in a compensation bill being payable by the hospital concerned to the private provider because of a breach of contract. That is another example of why clause 1 is far too wide.
On clause 2, which is about qualification for the parking charge exemption, I am indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) for explaining the number of people who have an underlying entitlement to carer’s allowance. In my constituency, where there are a large number of pensioners, a significant number would be subject to the overlapping benefit rule and would therefore be included as carers under the Bill by reason of having an underlying entitlement.
The bigger problem is that the Bill would not help unpaid carers. The vast majority of the 6 million carers in this country do it voluntarily and do not get any help from the state or the taxpayer, yet the Bill would not help them at all. Indeed, it could perversely make them worse off.
Mr Nuttall: One point that we have not covered is that for some reason, under clause 5(1)(b), people who are caring as part of their voluntary work are specifically excluded.
Mr Chope: That is a very good observation by my hon. Friend, who always looks assiduously at the details. Perhaps the hon. Member for Burnley would like to intervene again to explain why those engaged in voluntary work are specifically excluded under clause 5(1). That problem shows that the hon. Lady needs to reconsider the Bill.
As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, the first stab at getting a private Member’s Bill on the statute book often fails, but there is then an iterative process whereby somebody else is successful in the ballot and brings forward a revised Bill for the House to consider. I believe that Lord Steel’s Abortion Bill, which got the House’s approval, was the sixth iteration of that Bill. I wish the hon. Lady luck in improving her Bill, having considered the points that have been made, and perhaps bringing forward one in the next Session that meets the concerns that have been expressed today.
I have always been concerned about new bureaucratic burdens being placed on organisations, so I am particularly concerned about the job that local authorities would
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have to do under clause 5(1) and (2), which provide that there would have to be an assessment of
“whether a carer should be eligible for free hospital car parking.”
No criteria are set out for the basis on which such a decision would be made, and there is nothing about how long that process might take. People often need quick decisions, but there is nothing about that. Would there be an appeals system if an applicant believed that the wrong decision had been taken? That would add to the bureaucracy and administration, and the time taken to deal with cases. It would cut across the discretion that hospitals and other organisations have to decide on their own parking charges.
Let me refer briefly to what happens at a few hospitals in my locality, because it shows that current discretionary arrangements are full of common sense and enable individual hospitals and hospital trusts to meet the needs of their communities by using available local expertise and experience.
In Royal Bournemouth hospital, all blue badge holders pay to park, and the only exemption is for disabled blue badge holders with tax-exempt vehicles. That is in line with neighbouring hospitals and other local authorities, and reflects the fact that the Christchurch and Bournemouth area has a large number of blue badge holders. If they were all able to avoid paying to park, relatively few people would have to pay, but they would have to pay a lot more. Sensibly, the Royal Bournemouth hospital offers exemptions for certain visitors and patients, and can arrange exemption certificates for specific patients and their visitors. Surely that is sensible.
Poole hospital has a similar arrangement, and a seven-day parking permit costs £16—a reasonable charge considering that parking normally costs £9 a day. Hospital governors recognise that if those with a long-term need to use hospital car parks have to pay £40 or £50 a week—those are the sorts of figures we have heard—that is not reasonable. Poole hospital chooses to exercise the discretion available to it, which is sensible.
Southampton General hospital is further away, but it is used by my constituents who have severe heart conditions and need surgery that often involves a long spell in hospital. It has a system of free parking or transport for patients who receive certain benefits, and concessionary parking for patients who are receiving certain treatments. A patient can be eligible for free parking or transport if they receive income support, hold an NHS tax credit exemption card, or an HC2 or HC3 certificate, which is a low-income support scheme that covers prescription, dental and healthcare travel costs.
Such sensible arrangements rely on the principle of localism and the idea that the best people to decide on such matters are the local community. Much hospital provision in this country, and too much of the NHS, is far too centralised, and the Bill would further centralise and remove discretion from individual hospitals and healthcare providers. I know that the Bill sounds good and is superficially attractive, but when one looks below the surface one finds that it does not stand up to detailed scrutiny.
I hope that when he responds the Minister will clarify whether—this is on a par with the issue of free school meals—the Bill, if enacted, would have Barnett consequentials. Barnett consequentials are a cost to the taxpayer. There is already free provision in Scotland,
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and my constituents are already subsidising the Scots to the extent of £1,600 a head, but if my reading of the Barnett consequentials is correct, another hidden cost would be that Scotland would have to be paid more money from the national Exchequer to compensate for the fact that the Bill does not apply to Scotland. That is another example of why proposed legislation can often turn out to be a lot more complex than it might appear on the surface. I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister will be able to help on that point when he responds to the debate.
Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend think the Bill requires a money resolution?
Mr Chope: That is obviously a matter for the House authorities, but the Bill is bound to cost taxpayers money and would therefore need a money resolution to proceed. It is possible to bring forward legislation which, although prima facie makes exemptions that impose costs on the taxpayer, contains compensating provisions to ensure that those costs are borne not by the taxpayer but by somebody else. It may be that the promoter of the Bill thinks we do not need to seek a money resolution because the costs arising from it will actually be borne by a lot of other people who do not yet know they will have to pay that cost.
I am not sure, however, who would meet the costs of the Barnett consequentials. I do not think there is any provision yet in statute to enable Barnett consequentials to be passed on in the form of higher car parking charges for users of hospital car parks. I am sure that that can be addressed in due course. I am sorry there is nobody here from Scotland today. I am a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, which enables me to be briefed on issues relating to Barnett consequentials. I know hon. Members from Scotland are always keen for us to pass legislation in this House that would give them more money through the Barnett consequentials. I imagine that if they were here today and voting on this private Member’s Bill—although it extends only to England—they would be rather enthusiastic about it, because it might deliver some more money for them through the Barnett consequentials.
We all think that carers do a great job, but I am not sure that it is only the paid carers we need to think about. We need to think about the unpaid carers, and the Bill does nothing at all for them. It extends a lot of bureaucracy and interference to our already over-regulated hospitals and healthcare sector. It would inevitably impose additional costs on those who are not exempted under its provisions and add additional bureaucracy and administrative burdens.
In summation, the Bill contains elements that may well make progress in this House, but I would not be keen for it to make progress today. There is so much work that needs to be done on the Bill in its present form that the Committee stage would be far too prolonged. I congratulate the hon. Member for Burnley on introducing the Bill. She is a new Member and I am sure that in the coming years she will be able to perfect the Bill, so we can get something on the statute book that meets some of the concerns she has expressed in this debate.
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1.49 pm
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper) on securing fourth place in the ballot for private Members’ Bills and choosing this important topic. I commend her on her excellent work. She deserves our thanks for raising awareness of this issue. The Bill and this debate enable us to shine a spotlight on the increasing challenges that many unpaid family carers face.
I want to talk specifically about carers and their finances, but first I want to add my perception of an unpaid carer to the comments we have just heard from the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope). Almost everybody in the sector counts carers who receive carer’s allowance, which is only £62 a week, as unpaid carers. I do not think many of us would think of £62 a week as payment. The term “paid carers” tends to refer to care workers. Apart from my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq), we have not touched enough on carers’ finances and how they manage, but it is important that we do so. If a Bill, such as this one, would defray costs for a group, it is essential that we understand whether they need that help, and I will argue that they do need it.
The Bill has the full support of the Labour Opposition, and despite the many negative comments I hope that it receives the backing it deserves from both sides of the House. We have heard some rather curmudgeonly comments about the Bill, but much of it deserves our backing, and I hope it will get it. It would exempt carers who receive carer’s allowance from paying hospital parking charges in England. This is an important issue for those unpaid family carers, many of whom make regular trips to hospital with those they care for. The right hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) carried out research in 2014 and found that people are having to pay anywhere between £11 and £131 a week in hospital parking charges. As I mentioned, these carers get a carer’s allowance of £62, so clearly any week in which they clock up £131 in hospital car parking charges would be a rather frightening time.
One of my constituents, Patricia, tells me:
“My husband is disabled and I am his carer, we can sometimes have two appointments in a day at Salford Royal Hospital that can take up to five hours. The fact that disabled people have to pay car parking charges is disgraceful. Hopefully sometime in the not too distant future the people who have decided on these charges will see the error of their ways.”
When she spends six to eight hours at hospital, she pays £6 to park.
Carers Trust also cites the example of Rachel, who was a carer for her husband, who had Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and type 2 diabetes. The combination of his conditions meant regular trips to hospital so that her husband could receive the healthcare he needed. Owing to his dementia, Rachel stayed with him on the ward to feed and clothe him and calm him when he became anxious, and nurses and doctors were grateful for her support and the insights into her husband’s condition she could provide. Over the final five weeks that her husband was in hospital, she paid out £120 in car parking charges. To Rachel, having to check every day that she had put enough money in the meter seemed like a cruel punishment for providing care for her husband in the NHS.
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Rachel’s experience is not uncommon. As many Members have said, there are over 6 million unpaid carers in the UK, and the thing to focus on is that they take a great deal of pressure off our healthcare services, but despite this great contribution, many carers are now deeply concerned about extra charges for care and about losing the support on which they rely because of Government budget cuts. Caring for someone else can be overwhelming and demanding, and can have a significant impact on the carer’s own health, on their finances and on their work and career. We know that carers can find that their incomes fall dramatically if they have to work fewer hours or leave work to care. According to the Carers UK “State of Caring” survey, almost half of the carers who responded said they were struggling to make ends meet. Of those, four out of 10 said they were cutting back on essentials, such as food and heating; almost four in 10 said they were using up their savings; and one in four said they had to borrow money from family and friends.
We are talking about carers struggling financially and now finding themselves cutting back on food, dipping into their savings or even borrowing money, and then they find they have to pay these hospital parking charges. Charging carers to park at hospitals adds stress to their lives and takes money out of their purses and pockets. It is no way to reward those unpaid family carers for the vital contribution they make to the NHS.
In a speech to the Local Government Association annual conference in July, the Health Secretary talked about the role of carers and about people taking more responsibility for their family members. He talked about developing a new carers strategy that examines what more we can do to support existing carers and the new carers we will need. This measure is one of those things that we could be doing.
If Health Ministers want to increase the number of family carers, which will be essential, they must consider the impact that caring has on a carer’s income and their future financial security. They should be arguing for carers to be exempt from some charges. The 2010 Government report, “A Vision for Adult Social Care” acknowledges that carers are the first line of prevention. Their support often stops problems from escalating to the point where more intensive packages of support become necessary.
Carers need to be properly identified and supported. Indeed, failure to identify and support carers has serious implications both for the NHS and social care services, but there are many indications that cuts to services have caused, and are causing, mounting pressure on carers. The Minister and I have stood across the Dispatch Box from each other only once before today, but he recently told the House in answer to Health questions:
“I do not think that carers’ invaluable contribution to society has ever been better recognised.”—[Official Report, 13 October 2015; Vol. 600, c. 156.]
I was surprised to hear that comment, and I am sure that many carers and many carers organisations were surprised, too. I feel that the reality is very different from the picture the Minister sought to convey. I can tell him that many carers actually feel unsupported, unrecognised and singled out by the Government’s austerity measures. With cuts of over £4.6 billion to local authority budgets, adult social care support has been reduced or removed in many areas, with many people now paying higher charges and depending on unpaid family carers to cover the shortfall in care.
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Financially, unpaid carers have been hit by Government cuts and austerity measures in ways that I feel they should not have been. Around 5,000 carers have been hit by the benefit cap, and at least 60,000 have been hit by the bedroom tax. I brought forward a Bill to exempt carers from the bedroom tax, but the Government and some Conservative Members who are present opposed that sensible proposal.
The hon. Member for Christchurch raised the issue of tax credit cuts. It is becoming clearer that hundreds of thousands of carers in receipt of carer’s allowance and working tax credits could be hit by the Government’s proposed cuts to tax credits, yet many working carers rely on them. Carers UK gives the example of Michelle, who is a lone parent who cares for her son, Jake, who has cerebral palsy. Jake receives disability living allowance and, as his carer, Michelle claims carer’s allowance. She also works three short shifts at a local supermarket each week and is paid just over the national minimum wage. As she works 16 hours and is on a low income, she is also entitled to working tax credit alongside some child tax credit.
Michelle, in common with many carers in her situation—even some Conservative Members seemed concerned about parent carers such as Michelle—finds it very difficult to get the right specialist support for Jake outside school hours, so she cannot increase her hours of work. Jake often has hospital appointments, which also means she cannot take on any more work. If the tax credit changes due in April 2016 were in place now, Michelle’s income would be reduced by over £1,400 per year. As well as losing that £1,400, Michelle would have to continue to pay hospital car parking charges when her son has hospital appointments. That goes to the heart of the point raised by the hon. Member for Christchurch.
Is the Minister content to see a working family carer have her income reduced by £1,400? Carers on carer’s allowance are already caring for 35 hours a week or more, and they cannot be expected to take on more hours to try to make up the loss. I hope the Minister is fighting on behalf of those working family carers and making sure that the Chancellor considers them when he is looking at measures that might mitigate the tax credit cuts. If there is no protection or exemption from charges for carers, they might feel that the Government are turning their backs on them and taking for granted the support they provide and the benefit they bring to the economy.
Age UK’s report, “Briefing: The Health and Care of Older People in England 2015” paints a very clear picture of the current climate in health and social care. Since 2010, 400,000 fewer people are getting the care they need, so the reliance on unpaid family carers will be ever greater. An estimated 1.6 million people currently provide care for 50 hours plus per week, which is an increase of 33% since 2001. Over the next five years, around 10 million people will become carers, so support for carers and help for them to manage their finances will remain big issues.
“The growing cost of providing good quality care and support to an ageing population with more complex care needs means that putting in place the right support for carers is both a way of limiting the rise in care costs and a way of supporting carers to have a good life balance”,
to which legislation states they are entitled. As more of us are living longer, one in five of us will become a carer
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to a family member or a friend in the future, and that care role needs to be supported, financially, socially and in the workplace.
During the long hours I have been sitting here, a number of carers have commented on the debate via social media. One described some of the remarks that have been made today as
“a disgraceful and childish reaction to a very sensible Bill”.
Another said that the remarks were “shameful” and “insulting to carers”. Others said
“I’m glad this is being discussed”,
“such a shame this issue is being degraded”,
and that the debate had brought the House into disrepute.
Carers also made very specific comments about Conservative Members, saying that they are “out of touch” and should be reminded that carer’s allowance is only £3,229 a year. One spoke of spending “a fortune” on parking
“for my son’s medical appointments both routine and emergency”.
Many observed that there seemed to be a suggestion that carers would abuse the free parking, which was deeply resented.
Carers’ lives can be made easier by relatively small changes. Ministers have so far turned down the case to exempt them from the bedroom tax. Exempting them from car parking costs is a simple but effective measure, which would show them that we understand the social, financial and emotional difficulties that are associated with caring. It is a small gesture that would show carers that we value their contribution to society. I commend my hon. Friend’s Bill to the House, and I hope that the Minister and all other Members will give it their support.
2.1 pm
The Minister for Community and Social Care (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure to respond to the debate. I want to make some general comments before I go into the details of the Bill and before time beats us, but let me first congratulate the hon. Member for Burnley (Julie Cooper) on her success in the ballot, and on using it to present this Bill. I am very grateful to her for discussing it with me in advance—we have met twice—and for prompting others to take an interest in it.
I think I have made it clear to the hon. Lady from the outset that the Government cannot support the Bill, for reasons that have been mentioned by my hon. Friends in connection with the discretion that we need to give to hospitals. I shall say more about that shortly. I think that I also made it clear to the hon. Lady—and she was very generous in remarking on this—that we were willing to change our guidance principles, which I shall read out later in order to show where the changes have been made. Those changes are amendments, and as far as I am concerned, they are the “Julie Cooper amendments”, because if the hon. Lady had not presented them to us, we would not have had them. Although I cannot support a change in the legislation, a material change will be made, and I hope that trusts and hospital authorities will take advantage of it when they feel that that is in their interests and also the right thing to do.
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Let me now say a few words about carers. The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) knows a great deal about the subject, having spent considerable time dealing with carers’ issues over the years in her previous role as consultant to the Princess Royal Trust for Carers and on the local council. She understands the carer’s world very well, and I pay tribute to her for that.
Although I will say a little bit about carers, I want to say something about the car parking aspects of the Bill as well. There is no dispute between anyone in this House about the value associated with carers. I felt it was reasonable for me to mention the support I believed carers had from the Government at present. I did that not only because of what we say about valuing what carers do but because of our recognition that the system could not exist without them. However, the system could not exist if it had to compensate carers for every particular cost; that just cannot be done.
The 2011 census identified 5.4 million carers in England. To put that in context, the state spends £16 billion each year on adult social care. The total market is estimated to be worth £22 billion. The Office for National Statistics has valued informal care at about £61.7 billion. Whatever the actual figure may be, it is immense and this could not be done without the voluntary contribution of carers.
Philip Davies: If it is the case, as the shadow Minister seems to be indicating, that the only way one can show recognition towards what carers do is to support this Bill on hospital car parking charges, does the Minister agree that the shadow Minister ought to explain why in 13 years of a Labour Government they never passed legislation to exempt carers from hospital car parking charges?
Alistair Burt: My hon. Friend, who made a strong contribution to this debate, makes a fair point. The difficulties of life are such that, no matter that we have a string of things we would like to do, the finances do not enable us to do them. It is amazing that when we are in opposition we find things we were unable to do when we were in government.
One or two colleagues also made the point about the basic economics of this. It is tempting to add up a cost and say that because the value given by carers to the national economy is as it is, therefore everything can be netted off against it and it is a benefit. The economics just do not work that way. As hospitals would have to find the money to maintain their car parks and everything else, it is not netted off by the benefit to carers. So tempting though it is, and an understandable argument though it may be, it does not actually work. It only works when we do the difficult things that some of my colleagues have pointed out today, which seem to be very tough. After all, who would not give free car parking to carers? Indeed, who would not give free car parking at hospitals to everyone, which the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) went down the road of saying? That ignores the fact that it was not done when her Government had a chance to do it, and it ignores the fact that trying to find something like a quarter of a billion pounds when the NHS is stretched is going to be very difficult. These things are lovely to talk about, but they cannot always be done. It is much better to concentrate on what we can do.
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Barbara Keeley: This is about more than just sending a message. We are increasingly not exempting carers who are on this very low basic income of carer’s allowance—only £3,229 plus whatever extra benefits they might qualify for. They are not exempt from the bedroom tax because the Government have not made them so, they are not exempt from the benefit cap, and now they are not exempt from car parking charges. Some hospitals can do this: Torbay can make concessions, and Scotland and Wales can do it, so clearly it is not impossible.
Alistair Burt: No, it is not impossible, but the whole point of what we are talking about is to provide discretion, and I will come back to one or two of the elements related to carers.
As I have discussed with the hon. Member for Burnley, we are looking at the strategy for carers in the round, and I have got the responsibility of doing that. We will look at all sorts of things for the future. The economics will come into it—I take that point—and I think it is best to look at this as an overall strategy. I have offered to involve the hon. Lady, who has agreed; indeed, I would like one or two Back-Bench colleagues from all parties to assist me when that consideration of strategy gets up and going because of their particular interest in the subject. The overall impact on carers of all sorts of things that are happening at present can be taken into account. There will still be finite financial limits, which I will come to soon, but where life can be made easier, we obviously are looking to do that.
The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South mentioned the bedroom tax. The relevant rules already take account of the needs of carers. For example, non-spouse resident carers plus others who need to stay overnight are allowed an extra bedroom—[Interruption.] Well, if that is not true, perhaps the hon. Lady would like to intervene on me, but that is what the law says. Discretions are also offered by local authorities, and that too provides an opportunity to take account of what carers might need.
Barbara Keeley: The figure of 60,000 carers who are having to pay the bedroom tax comes from the Department for Work and Pensions. There are at least 60,000 of them who have to pay.
Alistair Burt: As I have said, the opportunities for discretion exist, but perhaps the way in which discretion is exercised is something that the carers strategy can look at.
It was this Government who passed the Care Act 2014. For the first time, carers—as well as those they were caring for—were given the right to be assessed by a local authority. We gave an extra £400 million for respite care, to be used by those who needed it during the last Parliament. It is therefore reasonable, given the availability of the carer’s allowance and the other measures I have mentioned, for the Government to indicate that carers are valued in ways that they have not been in the past. There has been an incremental increase in support for and recognition of the carer’s role over the years.
I stand four-square behind what my colleagues have done. The Secretary of State’s determination to devise a new carer strategy, on top of what is already there, is a recognition of the fact that more might well need to be
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done, but it also recognises the value of carers. Nothing we have heard today on either side of the House, including some graphic examples, has suggested that we do not value carers.
Before I respond to the points on car parking charges, I should like to mention the speeches that have been made today. The hon. Member for Burnley set out her case extremely well, and I shall come back to that in a moment. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) is a necessary piece of grit in the oyster of the workings of Parliament. Mrs Thatcher said that every Government needed a Willy, but in addition, every Parliament needs either an Eric Forth or a Philip Davies. They remind us that, at the end of the day, this is not a game. If we pass a piece of legislation, it has consequences and, accordingly, it has to be right. Occasionally, my hon. Friend will say things that people find uncomfortable, but he is just doing his job.
The process of a private Member’s Bill is not easy. Indeed, as I go on talking for a while this afternoon, there will be plenty who say that these processes should be handled differently, but they are not. This is the way in which some things are examined. My hon. Friend made a good speech. Above all, he talked about the problems of economics that I referred to earlier. There are many things that we would all love to do, but often we cannot. We have to make choices. When the Government of the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South were in office, they had to make choices, and so do we.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) made a strong personal plea for the Bill. He mentioned patients on dialysis, and I would like to reassure him that those patients are already covered in our principles as frequent out-patient attenders. The amendment that we have just made to our provisions will ensure that carers of patients on dialysis will be covered by the guidance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North—God bless it!—(Mr Nuttall) went into forensic detail about the Bill. I ask him to convey my good wishes to all at Fairfield hospital, which I remember very well. Both my children were born there, and my wife still has a plaque up on the wall from when she opened a piece of equipment there. My hon. Friend also went into forensic detail when he described the difficulties that would be created by the Bill. He gave it a necessary examination.
The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes), whom we should thank for her services to the NHS over many years, made it clear how passionate she felt about this issue. In a perfect world, everything would be wonderful, and she finished by saying that it would be great if everyone could park for free at hospitals. They cannot do so, however, because the money would have to be found from somewhere. I will come back to that point in a little while.
My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) detailed his own personal campaigning for fairer charges in his constituency. He is a perfect example of how an MP of any party can take up an issue and how, when something is wrong that can be worked through, it can be done in a local capacity. He provided a series of perfect examples of what to do as a local Member.
The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) made a passionate plea for change. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) examined the Bill in depth, especially in relation to clause 1.
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He gave examples of where the present discretionary arrangements could work to people’s advantage, and we will come back to those later. If there was no example anywhere of guidance and of opportunity for discretion being used, then the strictures of the hon. Member for Burnley would be much stronger. The fact is that discretion is used in some areas. Various figures were quoted: some 63% of hospitals do not charge, and some 86% or 87% offer discretion. That allows local areas to take notice of the principles and make their own decisions about what is necessary.
May I just add a word about the phrase “postcode lottery”, which is a favourite of mine? A postcode lottery implies a situation in which there is no chance to do anything about it. Many of the things in modern political life that we term postcode lotteries are not postcode lotteries at all, because they all contain the opportunity for people to make a difference, or to change things. The point of local discretion and of transparency in the delivery of services is precisely that it enables people who represent an area to say, “Why isn’t it as good here as it is next door? What is it they are doing that we are not?” They can then apply pressure locally to get something done. They should not always run to Government to say, “It is your fault. You must standardise everything.” Neither should they throw their hands up in the air and say that there is nothing they can do about it. Therefore, I reject the term postcode lottery on most of the times that it is used. This is an example of where, if discretion is used in some areas, why is it not used in others, and what will people do locally to encourage it? Clearly, it happens in some, but not all, places, and it is not always the responsibility of Government.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said that he longed for the day when Ministers could stand up at the Dispatch Box and say, “It is nothing to do with me.” Actually, local discretion is nothing to do with me. All too often people come running towards Government and demand that something is done, when, actually, the answer lies in their own hands, their own constituents’ hands, their own local decision-makers’ hands and, in this particular case, the hands of those who are making decisions about hospital charges. It is fair that responsibility is very widely spread.
Let me move on and say a little bit about the car parking matter. I will do my best to be quick. Everything that the NHS does is on an epic scale, and that is true even in relation to car parking. At hospitals alone, there are around half a million car parking spaces to finance, manage and maintain, and every day, millions of users need to be seen safely on and off the sites. Parking is an amenity that the NHS has to provide if the service is to function properly—or indeed to function at all. Problems are particularly thorny in large acute hospitals, but they also exist in others. Our aim is always to see that parking provision is sufficient, efficient and fair.
The level of car parking provision required is a reflection of massively increased car ownership. When I was a boy and used to go with my father, a GP, to visit our local hospital, there were no car parking charges and the car park was half empty. I was born and brought up in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s, and life was very different. The more people who use our hospitals, the more car parking spaces we will need. Very recently,
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I went to the Lister hospital, a local hospital used by my constituents, and saw its new car parking facilities, which make a huge difference, but they have to be paid for.
Car parking, like any other service, is provided at a cost. Owning land costs money, so hospitals have to meet finance costs as well as maintenance, lighting, security and so on. Across the NHS, we now see better and better facilities. It is inevitable that some form of charge needs to be levied to cover those very real costs. From this perspective, it is perhaps remarkable that the average cost of parking across the NHS is only £1.15 an hour—and has fallen slightly this year. Once we accept that there is a real and unavoidable cost associated with parking we have to ask ourselves, “If hospital parking costs are not paid for by drivers, who are they paid by?” Again, that was a hard question asked by Members on the Government Benches.
Julie Cooper: I just want to clarify that the Bill is not asking for free car parking for all; it is asking to protect a vulnerable group who suffer great financial hardship from car parking charges. Despite the figure he has just mentioned, I am sure that the Minister will agree that the average car parking cost is £39 a week and significantly higher in some areas. Should the most vulnerable—those on the lowest incomes, who are already providing invaluable support to the NHS—be made to carry that burden?
Alistair Burt: As the hon. Lady knows, we have adjusted our principles to ask trusts to consider carers as a particularly special category. I do not think the Bill will work because of the technical issues that colleagues have mentioned and the difficulty of defining carers. I know how the hon. Lady wants to do it, but others would want to stretch it further. There is also the question of whether it is right to pick out particular groups in legislation and not others, a case that has been made very strongly. I entirely accept that she is not asking for free car parking for everyone, although some are, but the question remains that if this group is advantaged in this way, what might others work towards?
The principle remains the same. I do not think that anyone disagrees that if local hospital authorities can provide carers with free car parking within their budget without affecting any of their other costs, that is good and we would like to see it. However, that is not the view that we believe is held by all and, accordingly, we think that it is a matter for local discretion.
Let me briefly mention a couple of issues relating to the provision of car parking. I said that we had changed the principles. The principles, which my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley also mentioned, are delivered by the Government to the NHS and used to read:
“Concessions, including free or reduced charges or caps, should be available for the following groups…disabled people…frequent outpatient attendees…visitors with relatives who are gravely ill…visitors to relatives who have an extended stay in hospital…staff working shifts that mean public transport cannot be used”.
The “Julie Cooper amendments” mean that the reference to visitors with relatives who are gravely ill will now include the words
“or carers of such people”.
Where the principles refer to visitors who have an extended stay in hospital, the words
“or carers of such people”
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will be added, and a new line has been inserted reading
“carers of people in the above groups where appropriate”.
The word “carers” has been inserted in the principles for the first time, and that is due to the hon. Member for Burnley. I hope that the examples we have heard of where discretion has been exercised might be used by others.
It is reasonable to suggest that if the NHS as a whole had to find costs upwards of £180 million, perhaps even towards £250 million, they would have to come from somewhere. It is therefore reasonable to ask who else would pay for them and whether that would be done through higher charges for others or at the expense of other parts of the NHS. I think that that is a matter for local discretion.
We heard about Scotland and Wales, and the devolved Administrations have decided what works for them. I also understand, however, that their free car parking policy has brought its own problems. Since charges were abolished at Edinburgh’s Western general hospital, the car park has been constantly full and staff have resorted to parking in nearby residential streets. In the first three months of free car parking on the Western general site, 70 complaints were received whereas before there were no complaints at all. In some areas, residents were complaining that people were parked in front of their driveways and Lothian health board has already had to employ wardens to police the overcrowded car park and is now paying for new car parks to be built.
The question of where car parks are sited was also raised, and the majority of hospital car parks where there are charges are in city centres. It is fanciful to believe that if free car parking was available in a city centre near a station or shopping centre, it would not be used by people who were not going to the hospital. There would have to be another method of policing it. Although the free car parking in Scotland and Wales sounds wonderful, it has its problems and we need to be clear about that. It is not an option for many hospitals in city centres.
The Bill was examined in relation to who might be eligible and who might not. Carers and those with underlying access to carer’s allowance include nearly 1 million people, which raises salient questions about where the costs would be diverted to.
I want to talk a little about the availability of car parking and access to it. A sensible, measured approach to car park charges can dramatically increase the availability of spaces. This matters to people who are looking for a car park space in a busy place at a busy time. It is in no one’s interest for a very small number of people to be able to park for free if everyone else, including, potentially, large numbers of carers, are then denied the chance to park at all. Quite reasonably, people who have cars expect to be able to use them to carry out their daily routine, but the available land for parking is limited and we cannot make it grow at the rate we wish. More people driving means more people competing for space, and hospitals have to find a way to make sure that as many people as possible can have access.
Without fair charges, car parks become congested and there is no turnover of spaces. Patients who arrive at 8.30 am may find that they can park, but those whose appointments are for later in the day are likely to be faced with a long and ultimately fruitless search for somewhere to leave their car. This cannot be fair.
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The Government take the view that it is not sensible to impose central requirements in relation to car parking. We cannot possibly know what each local situation requires. In city centres the cost of the land may be too high, if land is available at all. We are all familiar with St Thomas’ just across the bridge. It has 900 beds, yet has only 380 parking spaces. Those spaces have to work hard, and to do that they need to be in constant turnover. The situation is repeated again and again across the country. I am sure there is not one of us in the House who has not heard of a friend, colleague or loved one who has struggled to find a place to park at a city-centre hospital.
Hospitals outside the cities might well have more space for parking, but they have increased demand from people who have no viable alternative to driving. My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull, speaking about the importance of local transport provision, again made an important point which will benefit carers, patients and others alike. Some will never be able to travel by public transport—it will not be suitable—but others will, and the car will not always be the most convenient option. NHS organisations must have the autonomy to make their own decisions.
These challenges are not an excuse to ignore the principles which, as I mentioned to the hon. Member for Burnley, now include her amendments. Patients, carers and visitors deserve to have consistent concessions across the NHS. The charges may vary, but we can all agree on the groups of people who should benefit. As I indicated, we have identified five groups for whom we believe concessions can enhance access. By adding carers to those principles, we will have made a valuable contribution, very much as a result of what the hon. Lady has done.
A further area of concern for me is the way that car parks are managed and charges set. One aspect that concerns me is when patients, carers and visitors report unfair charges when appointments overrun, through no fault of their own. A number of colleagues have mentioned the problem faced by people trying to decide how much time they are going to spend at hospital, and the need to make sure that people are not worried about making that decision when they are under stress. That is why our principles support pay-on-exit schemes where drivers pay only for the time that they have used. Too often, patients are forced to guess how long their appointment will take, with the consequence that some of them put too much money in, just to be on the safe side. Others run back and forth between clinic and car park, adding money as their time runs out. How much more reassuring it would be for them to know that the amount to be paid will exactly reflect the time spent at the hospital. Over half of our hospitals currently have pay-on-exit systems and we expect that to increase.
In the time allowed to me, I have tried to indicate our support for the principle of what the hon. Lady has said. That is why we have changed our principles. However, we consider that a national decision is not right. The reason why I am carrying on speaking is that I am not going to leave it to any of my colleagues to do the procedural business of talking the Bill out; that must fall to me. What we have done by changing the principles is to recognise what the hon. Lady has done. I hope that authorities have listened to the examples given by colleagues, showing what their authorities have been able to do, and I hope we see more.
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I am sure that the shadow Minister will play a keen part and take a great interest as we work through the carers strategy. I am sure that we will find a strategy that recognises some of the other issues that she mentioned. I hope that in doing so we will be able to keep a cross-party, cross-House sense of the importance and value that we associate with carers, while recognising that the hard economics of the world mean that we cannot provide everything and so must provide the things that are of most advantage.
2.30 pm
The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 112(2)).
Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Monday 2 November.
Business without Debate
Local Government Finance (Tenure Information) Bill
Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Bill to be read a Second time on Monday 2 November.
Department of Energy and Climate Change (Abolition) Bill
Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 22 January 2016.
30 Oct 2015 : Column 688
Defence Expenditure (NATO Target) Bill
Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 6 November.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The House will be aware that today Shaker Aamer, the last British resident in Guantanamo Bay, has been released from 13 years’ detention without charge or trial and returned to the UK. I acknowledge the efforts made by his family and supporters, and indeed by Members of this House, not least the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in securing that release. I would welcome your help and guidance on securing a statement from the Government on Shaker’s release so that they can explain how they can help his adjustment to normal life in this country and investigate the reasons for his detention and treatment.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I know that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this is not a point of order for the Chair, but a point about when this important matter can be discussed in some form here in this Chamber. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman, rather than wishing me to comment on a matter of order, simply wishes to draw attention, as he very skilfully has done, to the fact that this event has occurred. I am sure that Members on the Treasury Bench will have heard what he has said, and I have every confidence that in due course there will be an opportunity for the matter to be debated and considered here in this Chamber.
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Child Abuse Allegations (Police Resources)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Guy Opperman.)
2.33 pm
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to bring before the House the important issue of the resourcing of police investigations into historical child sexual abuse.
The extent of child sexual abuse that has taken place over many decades in the UK has shocked our country to the core. The facts that have emerged following the death of Jimmy Savile have been on a horrific scale. They speak of a culture in which children’s voices were not heard or believed, and in which children’s dreadful experiences were not recognised: most significantly, a culture in which fundamental wrongs were occurring on a routine basis in some parts of our society, and in which those who sought to raise the issue were ignored or silenced. It is entirely appropriate that an independent national inquiry has been established under Justice Goddard to investigate the extent to which state and non-state institutions failed in their duty to protect children, to understand exactly what went on, and to enable very deep reflection on how a part of our society was able to depart so radically from anything that we could consider right and proper, and good and true.
We talk about historical abuse in order to distinguish it from abuse that is occurring now, but for survivors there is nothing historical about it. They live every single day with the consequences of the torture inflicted on them by their abusers. They also live with the consequences of psychological abuse, having been told that they do not matter, that they would not be believed and that the consequences of speaking out would be worse than living privately with the pain they carry.
My hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) and I have met the Shirley Oaks Survivors Association. Shirley Oaks was a children’s home run by Lambeth Council. It was the largest children’s home in Europe. It is known that organised child abuse occurred at Shirley Oaks over many years, and there have been three successful prosecutions of abusers who operated there.
The Shirley Oaks Survivors Association has been established over the past 18 months, and it is striking that more than 200 people have come forward in that time to seek support and to bear witness to their experiences in local authority care. I pay tribute to the Shirley Oaks Survivors Association for its courage in speaking out, the support it is providing to a large number of survivors, and the painstaking investigatory work it is doing to uncover what happened at Shirley Oaks. I have listened first hand to some of the testimonies of former Shirley Oaks residents. It is both heartbreaking and sickening that vulnerable children—who were in the care of the state because they had already been let down in a multitude of other ways—were subjected to such devastating and damaging experiences.
The fact that the full and shocking scale of the trauma experienced by many residents of Shirley Oaks and of other children’s homes remained untold for so long is in itself a scandal, but it is clear that the wider acknowledgement of the prevalence of child sexual abuse is giving new confidence to survivors to come forward. It takes courage to disclose and speak out, and
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that process involves additional trauma. Reliving events that took place a long time ago can open the scars and make them raw wounds once again.
When a survivor has the courage to come forward to disclose painful past events and to make an allegation of abuse, it is vital that people have the resources and expertise, as well as the necessary time, to investigate with skill and care. That means giving time to police officers to travel to meet survivors in a place of their choosing. Many people who were abused at Shirley Oaks and at other children’s homes no longer live in the local area. People need the skills to engage sensitively and compassionately with survivors, to give them confidence that they will be listened to and taken seriously and that they will be believed. People also need the skills and the time to investigate historical events, to trawl through records and to investigate suspects rigorously and appropriately.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate, particularly on behalf of the London borough of Lambeth, which we both represent. The police have admitted to me formally that investigations carried out in the past were “of their time”. Does my hon. Friend agree that that indicates that they did not meet the standards we would expect of police investigations today, and that that is why it is all the more important that the investigations carried out now are properly funded?
Helen Hayes: My hon. Friend makes a very important point about the need for police investigations to be resourced properly. The survivor needs proper support and, in cases where the public sector has played a role, local authority resources should be made available so that they can go through archive records to find all the available evidence and, as my hon. Friend suggests, to investigate with modern eyes the wrongs that were perpetrated in the past.
My hon. Friend and I recently met senior police officers who are responsible for Operation Trinity—the investigation into historical abuse in Lambeth—and the wider police investigations on historical abuse. We were particularly concerned to hear about the resources available to the police. Operation Trinity has only a handful of officers working on it in a dedicated way, and there are 200 survivors of Shirley Oaks alone. As a consequence of the Goddard inquiry, tens of thousands of new allegations of abuse are expected across the country. That inquiry is already under way, and the first truth pilot—the inquiry work stream that enables survivors to give their evidence—started last week.
Senior Met officers told me that they are recruiting additional police officers to Operation Trinity. At the time we met, however, the resourcing plan had not been signed off, and it was not clear to me which parts of the Metropolitan police they would be drawn from or what additional specialist training they would receive.
This is at a time when the police are facing unprecedented cuts. Across the country as a whole, 17,000 police officers have been cut since 2010, and it is estimated that between 22,000 and 30,000 more will be cut following the comprehensive spending review. In London, we are set to lose all our police community support officers and between 5,000 and 8,000 police officers. These are not small cuts that can be accommodated through efficiency savings; they will have a fundamental impact
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on policing. I am very concerned that, at a time when the police are facing such significant cuts and a process is under way that will prompt many more survivors to come forward, opening up their pain and trauma as they do so, there is not currently a credible plan for resourcing the police investigations.
A further concern is that, although much of the resource for investigations into abuse that took place in the past has focused on London, it is clearly a national issue. Links have been drawn between abuse in children’s homes in Lambeth and locations in Wales and elsewhere. Understanding these connections also presents resourcing challenges. The police do not currently have fit-for-purpose IT infrastructure to enable them fully to evaluate all the information that is gathered and to join up investigations in different parts of the country.
The abuse of children that took place in the past is a national scandal—a national issue—and it demands a national response. It is not sufficient for the police and councils, both of which are experiencing among the greatest cuts of any part of the public sector, to have to find the resources from their mainstream funding to investigate allegations and support survivors. That is simply not a good enough response. The recent consultation on police funding arrangements made no suggestion that the need to investigate historical incidents should be a factor in considering the basis on which funding is allocated, and nor should it be. The need to investigate historical abuse is unique and extraordinary, and it should be treated as such. I am therefore asking the Home Secretary to recognise historical abuse as an extraordinary national issue that demands proper resources on a national scale so that we can understand what happened in full and provide the compassion, understanding and, ultimately, justice for survivors of this shameful period in our history.
The resource to investigate historical abuse should be a separate line in the comprehensive spending review, over and above the resources for individual police forces and, indeed, local authorities. It should include provision for specialist training, in relation to both survivors and investigating past events. It should provide for the co-ordination of investigations and fit-for-purpose IT facilities so that links can be drawn among the abuses that occurred in different areas of the country. I hope that the Home Secretary and the Minister will agree with me that we owe it to the survivors of child abuse to ensure that the investigation into the dreadful crimes committed against them is properly resourced.
2.43 pm
The Minister for Immigration (James Brokenshire): I thank the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) for securing this debate and for raising this important matter. I appreciate the way in which she highlighted the work of the Shirley Oaks Survivors Association, which is clearly doing very good work in her constituency. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) has also taken a close interest in that issue. I pay tribute to them for what they are doing, as well as for highlighting the work of Operation Trinity.
I want to echo some of the basic themes of the hon. Lady’s speech. It is important to acknowledge, first and foremost, that no case of child sexual abuse is historical
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for the victims and survivors of this abhorrent crime. They must live with the consequences of the abuse they have suffered each and every day of their lives. It is absolutely right that the victims and survivors of abuse, wherever or whenever it took place, should feel able to come forward to report abuse to the police and get the support they need. Let me be clear: tackling child sexual abuse is a priority for the Government. We have stated consistently that when an allegation of child sexual abuse is made, whether it has occurred recently or in the past, it should be thoroughly investigated by the police so that the facts can be established.
As Chief Constable Simon Bailey, the national policing lead for child protection and abuse investigations, has said, we are at a watershed moment in facing up to the scale of child sexual abuse. Victims and survivors of abuse are, more than ever, feeling confident to report their experiences. This is encouraging, but also an immense challenge for the police and other agencies.
Mr Umunna: I completely agree with the Minister about the way in which we describe these things. We may refer to it as historical abuse, but the victims and survivors live with it for ever. Obviously many survivors are watching this debate. He is the Minister for Immigration. In his Department, there is also a Minister for policing, crime and criminal justice and victims and a Minister for preventing abuse and exploitation. If survivors wish to correspond with or contact the Department, which Minister would it be most appropriate for them to deal with? Who has the pen on this issue in the Department?
James Brokenshire: The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), is leading the work on exploitation. She is clearly a key person, but she is working alongside the Minister for Policing, Crime and Criminal Justice because there are policing aspects in which he takes a keen interest. Obviously, the Home Secretary is personally engaged in this issue, has committed her time to it and has given it the priority that it has. She is overseeing all this work and providing leadership within the Department. No doubt we will come on to the Goddard inquiry and the need for engagement with that. Victims and others must feel that they can come forward to the inquiry and share their experiences directly. It is important to underline that.
The central issue that the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood raised related to police resources. There is no question but that the police still have the resources to do their important work. As a recent report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary reinforced, forces are successfully meeting the challenge of balancing their books while protecting the frontline, delivering reductions in crime and maintaining public satisfaction with the police.
The Government are determined that forces should do everything they can to bring perpetrators of child sexual abuse to justice. Child sexual abuse now has the status of a national threat in the strategic policing requirement. That means that forces are empowered to maximise specialist skills and expertise to prevent offending and investigate allegations. Police forces, police and crime commissioners and, in London, the Mayor’s office for policing and crime must have in place the capabilities they need to protect children from sexual abuse. However,
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it is not for Ministers or the Home Office to direct forces on how to deploy their officers and staff to meet that requirement.
As the hon. Lady will be aware, the allocation of resources on day-to-day investigations into cases of abuse, including abuse that took place in the past, is an operational matter for the relevant chief officers and police and crime commissioners, who are much better placed to make local assessments of need and risk. It is then for the PCC or the Mayor’s office for policing and crime, in consultation with the chief officer, to take decisions about deployment. It is absolutely right that those decisions are made by those closest to the situation, rather than by central Government.
Of course, police forces should include in their policing and budget plans reasonable contingencies for unexpected events within their areas. If, as happens from time to time, the police face significant or exceptional events, we stand ready to offer support where we can. There is an established process by which police and crime commissioners can apply for special grant funding to help with those costs.
The Government’s commitment to tackling child sexual abuse extends beyond the work of individual forces. More widely, we have made available £1.7 million to fund Operation Hydrant, which is the national policing response that oversees and co-ordinates the handling of multiple non-recent child sexual abuse investigations. Those investigations specifically concern persons of public prominence or offences that have taken place in institutional settings. Operation Hydrant is overseen by the national policing lead, Simon Bailey, and plays a crucial role in co-ordinating information on police forces’ investigations that fall within the scope of its terms of reference.
That is not all. As I said at the beginning of my speech, it is vital that victims and survivors report the abuse that they have suffered, so that it can be investigated and the truth can be established. The Government are determined that no stone shall be left unturned in pursuit of that aim.
Helen Hayes: Would the Minister not accept that the existence of Operation Hydrant, which co-ordinates the response across all police forces, is recognition of the national scale of the challenge, and that it therefore makes sense to resource the response at national level with a separate line in the comprehensive spending review?
James Brokenshire: I was going to go on to highlight the additional £10 million that has been given to the National Crime Agency for the creation of more specialist teams to tackle this type of abuse. The need for such a response is also why the Home Secretary has established an independent statutory inquiry into child sexual abuse. The inquiry will challenge institutions and individuals without fear or favour, and will get to the truth in determining whether state and non-state institutions in England and Wales, including the police, have taken seriously their duty of care to protect children from sexual abuse. Justice Goddard is leading the inquiry’s important work and grasping this once-in-a-generation opportunity to expose what has gone wrong in the past and learn lessons for the future. The inquiry will, where necessary, refer any specific allegations to the police for consideration for criminal investigation.
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The hon. Lady highlighted the important work on training and the response that can be expected of police officers, as did the hon. Member for Streatham. The College of Policing and the national policing lead have set the requirement for all forces to train all new and existing police staff, including call handlers, police community support officers, police officers, detectives and specialist investigators, to respond to child sexual abuse. The College of Policing has developed, and will keep under review, a comprehensive training programme to raise the standard of the police response to this crime, including by addressing police behaviours and attitudes, support for victims and the importance of partnership working and information sharing. In addition, the setting up of a new national centre of expertise will help with the understanding of national data and evidence, which will draw out factors causing and affecting child sexual exploitation and the front-line practice and integrated working models that work best.
We are taking immediate action to ensure that the mistakes of the past are never repeated. All chief constables have committed to a national policing child sexual exploitation action plan, which is aimed at raising standards in tackling this type of crime so that the police provide a consistently strong approach to protecting vulnerable young people.
Forces are being supported by Government to ensure that they deliver on that national plan. The national policing lead, Simon Bailey, has put in place regional co-ordinators and analysts, paid for by £1.5 million of Government funding in 2015-16, to ensure that forces are tackling child sexual exploitation properly. Through those co-ordinators and analysts we will build a picture of the threat of child sexual exploitation in each region and map out the detail of the police response to the threat. That will ensure that forces are improving their response to this type of crime in line with the national policing action plan.
I should also highlight Professor Jay’s report on the abuse in Rotherham, which, like other reports, made it clear that some forces have previously failed in their duty to safeguard children and, perhaps most shockingly, failed in how they treated victims of the most terrible abuse. The Government have been consistently clear that that culture of denial within forces must end. That is why, as I described, the College of Policing and the national policing lead have set the requirement for all forces to train all new and existing policing staff to respond to child sexual abuse. The College of Policing will keep that under review, which is important in terms of support to victims, as well as the importance of partnership working, information sharing, and police behaviour.
In response to increasing demand for the police to investigate online child sexual exploitation, the Prime Minister announced that an additional £10 million would be given to the National Crime Agency for the creation of more specialist teams to tackle such threats. We must not forget those at the heart of all this work, whose plight has instigated our determination to drive this action forward: the victims and survivors. We are providing an additional £7 million for services supporting survivors of sexual violence this and last financial year, and £2.15 million of that has already been provided as an uplift in funding for 84 existing rape support centres.
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Mr Umunna: Given the trauma that survivors are dealing with and have lived through, does the Minister agree how extraordinary it is that they are carrying out a lot of the work that we would usually expect the police to do? The Shirley Oaks Survivors Association has a huge unit to investigate and collate evidence about what happened there so that people can get redress, and ultimately justice.
James Brokenshire: I congratulate that association on its work. This is about giving people confidence to come forward and about the manner in which that evidence can be collated, but—as I have indicated—we need to do more work. I think there is growing confidence that people can come forward to the police, and I am sure that other organisations, foundations and charities have a role to play, working alongside the police. It is important that people feel able to come forward with a sense that their complaints will be investigated thoroughly and properly, as I have described this afternoon.
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The broad range of activity that I have outlined shows that the Government take all allegations of child sexual abuse extremely seriously, no matter where or when it occurs. Again, I thank the hon. Lady for the way that she brought this matter to the House. Clearly, work is taking place in her borough and constituency to raise awareness, give confidence, and underline the fact that people can come forward and have their allegations properly investigated. We will continue the urgent work of overhauling the way that our police, social services and other agencies work together to protect vulnerable children. I thank the hon. Lady for highlighting this matter, and I assure her of the priority that is given to this issue by the Government. We will continue to keep the House updated.