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(b) may appoint, in consultation with the Lord Chief Justice for Northern Ireland, a Pledge Adjudicator to duly consider and examine any complaint of a breach of the Pledge of Office and report relevant findings or recommendations to the Commissioner.”
This amendment makes provision for the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints to receive any complaints regarding breaches of the Pledge of Office by Ministers and to take any action (s)he deems fit in regard to the complaint. The Commissioner may also, after consultation with the Lord Chief Justice for Northern Ireland, appoint a Pledge Adjudicator to examine any given complaint and report on relevant findings or recommendations.
Amendment 13, in clause 8, page 4, line 37, at end insert
“including agreed support measures for those who are evidently making the transition away from paramilitarism;”
This amendment seeks to prevent a possible tension between two parts of the Undertaking, which may be interpreted divergently.
Amendment 16, in clause 8, page 4, line 40, after “with” insert “others, including”
Amendment 14, in clause 8, page 5, line 1, leave out
“to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism;”
See Member’s explanatory statement to amendment 13.
Amendment 6, in clause 8, page 5, line 11, at end insert—
“(5) Standing orders must provide for a process for investigating any alleged breach of the undertaking by any member of the Assembly and for determining whether the undertaking has been breached.
(5A) Standing orders must provide for sanctions that shall apply to any member of the Assembly who has been found to breach the terms of the undertaking.”
This amendment requires the Northern Ireland Assembly to have an enforcement process, comprising investigation, determination and penalty, in order to ensure compliance with the terms of the statutory undertaking by members of the Assembly.
Amendment 15, in clause 8, page 5, line 16, at end insert—
“(2) In Northern Ireland, the precepts and commitments of the Undertaking by Members shall be deemed to be additional to, and having the same status as, the Nolan principles (or such successor principles as may be adopted).
(3) ‘The Nolan principles’ means the seven general principles of public life set out in the First Report of the Committee on Standards in Public Life (Cm 2850).”
This amendment seeks to make provision for embedding the terms and spirit of the Undertaking by Members within the standards in public life in Northern Ireland and thus applicable to councillors, MPs and non-elected public offices.
Amendment 17, in clause 8, page 5, line 16, at end insert—
“( ) The Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards—
(a) will receive any complaints of any breach of the undertaking by members, and may take whatever action in regard to that complaint deemed appropriate, which may include investigating, resolving or publishing conclusions on the outcome of any complaint.
(b) may engage the services of a Pledge Adjudicator, as appointed by the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints, to duly consider and examine any complaint of a breach of the Undertaking by members and to report any relevant findings or recommendations to the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards.”
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This amendment makes provision for the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards to receive complaints regarding breaches of the Undertaking by Members and to take any action he deems fit.
That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill.
Government amendments 4 and 5.
That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.
Mr Wallace: I will speak to clauses 6, 7 and 8 and the related schedules, which extend the time available for the formation of the Executive after an election and provide for important commitments by Ministers and Members of the Legislative Assembly on tackling paramilitarism. I will also make a few remarks about the amendments in this group and I look forward to hearing the statements of the hon. Members who have proposed them.
Clause 6(1) amends the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to allow 14 rather than seven days for the allocation of ministerial positions in the Executive after the first meeting of the Assembly following an election. The proposed extension will allow the parties more time to agree a programme for government on a cross-party basis prior to the allocation of ministerial positions. That commitment first appeared in the 2014 Stormont House agreement and was reaffirmed in the recent “Fresh Start” agreement.
Schedule 1 makes transitional provision for the upcoming Assembly elections in May. Ordinarily, Assembly Standing Orders would require that ministerial posts are filled within seven days of the creation of a new Department. Schedule 1 makes it clear that where the event coincides with the period following the forthcoming election before the allocation of Ministers to Executive positions, the 14-day time limit for the formation of the Executive takes precedence. That will ensure that the period for the appointment of ministerial offices following the next Assembly election will not be inadvertently shortened as a result of changes flowing from the Assembly’s Departments Bill. I hope that the extension in time for ministerial appointments will provide helpful flexibility to all political parties in Northern Ireland involved in the formation of the Executive on the basis of a shared programme for Government following the upcoming elections and all future elections.
Clause 7, in line with the “Fresh Start” agreement, amends the pledge of office that all Northern Ireland Executive Ministers are required to affirm before taking up ministerial office. The clause inserts seven new commitments into the pledge. These were set out in the “Fresh Start” agreement, and the wording for the pledge faithfully reflects the agreement. The commitments build on existing principles of support for the rule of law and reflect a collective political determination to achieve a society free of paramilitarism. In the “Fresh Start” agreement, the parties agreed not simply to a passive acceptance of the values set out in the amendment to the pledge, but to an active fulfilment of them. The clause enshrines these political commitments in the pledge of office for Northern Ireland Executive Ministers through an amendment to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
I now turn to amendments 8 and 9. My remarks apply equally to amendments 13 and 14, which seek to make the same changes to clause 8 on the new undertakings
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for MLAs. I will say more about them shortly. The pledge as drafted faithfully reflects the wording of the “Fresh Start” agreement. I understand there is some concern about a perceived contradiction in the wording of the pledge and the undertaking as drafted. I hope to assure hon. Members that that is not the case. I do not think the wording needs to be changed. I agree that there can be no excuse for supporting paramilitary activity, but a transition away from paramilitarism can be achieved only with effective political engagement in communities. I do not believe there is any contradiction between taking a firm stance against paramilitary activity and supporting groups transitioning away from that activity. To encourage such a move is consistent with the other commitments required from Ministers and MLAs under clauses 6 to 8, such as the commitment to challenge paramilitary attempts to control communities and associated criminality.
Politicians need, as ever, to ensure that their engagements are in line with the responsibilities of their office, and those engagements must be in keeping with the commitments contained in the agreement and in the Bill. Furthermore, the “Fresh Start” agreement represents a collective political agreement by the Northern Ireland Executive and the UK and Irish Governments. The wording that was agreed was carefully constructed, and it demonstrates an important and symbolic political commitment to ending the influence of paramilitarism in Northern Ireland. Changing the structure and substance of the commitments, as proposed in these amendments, would unpick that political agreement.
I understand from the explanatory statement that amendment 10 is intended to refer to paragraph (f), rather than paragraph (e), of the existing pledge of office in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998:
“to support, and act in accordance with, all decisions of the Executive Committee and Assembly”.
I do not agree—nor do the Government—that there is any need to caveat one part of the pledge with another. The pledge will be read as a whole and, taken as a whole, the pledge represents a binding commitment by Executive Ministers to operate within the structures of the Executive Committee and the Assembly, and to accept no outside influence on their political activities. In any event, changing the substance of these commitments, as proposed in the amendment, would unpick the carefully constructed political agreement reached through the “Fresh Start” agreement.
On amendment 11, the arrangements for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to affirm the terms of the pledge within specified time limits are set out in the Standing Orders of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Bill, as drafted, makes no change to those arrangements. I agree that the pledge of office is of great importance, particularly for the Ministers who will lead the Executive, but I do not agree that there is any need to require the pledge to be read out orally in full in front of the Assembly. The Belfast agreement commits that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister will affirm the terms of the pledge of office, and that is exactly what the existing provision in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 requires. The changes to the ministerial pledge of office introduced by clause 7 flow directly from the “Fresh Start” agreement, but the proposed amendment would amend the process by which the terms of the pledge are affirmed by the First Minster
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and Deputy First Minister. In the talks that led to the “Fresh Start” agreement, there was no political consensus on making any additional changes to the existing process for affirming the terms of the pledge.
On amendment 12, the commitments in the pledge reflect the firm resolution of the Northern Ireland parties in the “Fresh Start” agreement to end the influence of paramilitarism in Northern Ireland. I am confident that Northern Ireland Ministers will uphold the terms of the enhanced pledge as they work collectively to achieve a society free of paramilitarism. There are already mechanisms in place that allow the Assembly to deal with breaches of the ministerial pledge by censuring a Minister, reducing their salary or even removing them from office. In addition, Ministers can be held accountable by judicial review in the courts for an alleged breach of the pledge of office. The Bill makes no changes to those existing measures.
The intended effect of amendment 12 was not dealt with under the “Fresh Start” agreement, and these are not therefore matters to be settled under this Bill. Should the Assembly wish to bring matters about alleged breaches of the pledge within the remit of the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints, the Northern Ireland Assembly could do so, but that could clearly be done only on the basis of cross-community consensus on such a measure. Furthermore, it would be very unusual to make a change of the kind proposed in the amendment without cross-community consensus in Northern Ireland, and there is no such consensus at present.
Clause 8 and schedule 2, in line with the “Fresh Start” agreement, make provision for a new undertaking to be given by all Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The undertaking for MLAs is based on the same seven commitments on tackling paramilitarism that have been added to the pledge of office for Ministers. For the first time, Members will have to give the undertaking before they can participate in Assembly proceedings or receive any of the rights or privileges enjoyed by Members who have taken their seat. The Northern Ireland Act prohibits the Assembly from requiring its Members to make an oath or declaration as a condition of office. It would not be possible for the Assembly to implement this “Fresh Start” commitment without Westminster legislation to introduce the undertaking. Schedule 2 makes transitional provision for the procedure for giving the undertaking after the Assembly election in May 2016 only. After that, the procedure will be set out in the Assembly’s Standing Orders.
There are two minor Government amendments to schedule 2—amendments 4 and 5. Under existing law, the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly remains in office after its dissolution and may chair the first meeting of the new Assembly, even if they are not a Member of it. The amendments ensure that an outgoing Speaker who has not been re-elected to the Assembly can determine the transitional procedure for the new undertaking for MLAs while chairing the first meeting of the new Assembly.
Amendments 6 and 17 propose changes to the way that the Assembly holds its Members to account for adherence to the new undertaking. Amendment 6 would require the Assembly to introduce a sanctions mechanism, and amendment 17 proposes that oversight should fall to the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner
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for Standards. The Assembly already has the power to introduce sanctions for breach of the undertaking by Members, should it consider that such sanctions are warranted. There are established mechanisms for holding MLAs to account for their adherence to the Assembly code of conduct through the Assembly’s Committee on Standards and Privileges and the independent Commissioner for Standards. There is considerable value in the Assembly, not this House, determining how MLAs should be held to account for any breaches of the new undertaking, in line with the present arrangements for the scrutiny of MLAs. Any changes would of course need to be built on cross-community support in the Assembly. I believe it is right that Assembly Members should be subject to scrutiny for their conduct, and I encourage the Assembly to consider carefully how that might be achieved.
On amendment 15, there was no commitment under the “Fresh Start” agreement for the pledge and the undertaking to bind any persons other than Ministers and MLAs respectively. While there may be merit in encouraging all those holding public office to follow the example set by Northern Ireland’s Assembly Members and abide by the spirit of the undertaking, any move to make a binding requirement on a wider group of public officials would require political and cross-community consensus. There is currently no such consensus.
Members of this House will be interested to note that local councillors in Northern Ireland are already required under law to make a declaration against terrorism before they can validly stand for election locally. They are also required to make a further declaration regarding the standards of conduct they will be guided by in office before they can so act.
On amendment 16, the undertaking as drafted in clause 8 faithfully reflects the wording in the “Fresh Start” agreement in a way that is sufficiently certain for the purposes of this legislation. On Second Reading, hon. Members pointed to the need for MLAs to work with a wide range of people, in addition to other Assembly Members, to achieve the disbandment of paramilitary organisations. I agree that this important task will require MLAs, and indeed political parties as a whole, to work with stakeholders as well as their Assembly colleagues, but the commitment as drafted does not limit the ability of MLAs to do so. The other commitments support an holistic approach to this task—for example, the commitment to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism is likely, in practice, to require MLAs to work with other stakeholders. I understand the sentiment behind the amendment, but I do not believe that any amendment is necessary to achieve it. I believe it makes sense for an undertaking by MLAs, made as they are taking their Assembly seats, to refer to working with their Assembly colleagues.
I look forward to hearing hon. Members’ contributions on the issues. For the reasons I have set out, I urge them not to press their amendments.
Nigel Mills:
May I ask the Minister a slightly complicated drafting question? I cannot see how the pledge and the undertaking in clauses 7 and 8 are restricted only to paramilitarism in relation to Northern Ireland. It may be a bit of an onerous duty to expect people to challenge all paramilitary activity anywhere in the world. If a
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Member of the Assembly expressed support for the peshmerga or the Free Syrian Army, which are probably paramilitaries under any natural definition, they would face some kind of sanction. Can the Minister point to where it states in the Bill or in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 that the restrictions apply only to activity related to Northern Ireland?
Mr Wallace: I think the best solution is for me to write to my hon. Friend on that technical question. I do not think that anyone in the United Kingdom, or in any democracy, would propose supporting paramilitaries, be they here or abroad.
2 pm
Lady Hermon: It is good to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward, while we discuss this important Bill, and I will say now that unless the Minister gives me a satisfactory reply, I am minded to divide the Committee on amendment 6.
Amendment 6 strives radically to improve clause 8, and I cannot believe that the Minister does not think that that is necessary—the clause certainly needs to be radically improved. We have just spent at least an hour in a useful debate on the establishment of yet another commission in Northern Ireland, namely the independent reporting commission. I am delighted that under clause 2, the primary objective of that commission will be to
“promote progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland.”
It is long overdue for the people of Northern Ireland to be rid of the scourge of paramilitary activity. They will be delighted with that commission when it is established, and will have confidence in it doing a good job.
On Second Reading, the Secretary of State said something important about the Stormont House agreement, which the Minister has cited regularly in his opening remarks. She stated that that agreement
“places fresh obligations on Northern Ireland’s political representatives to work together with determination to rid society of paramilitary activity and groups.—[Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 70.]
As the Minister rightly explained, clause 8 introduces an undertaking that all MLAs must give before they can participate in any of the Assembly’s proceedings, and as drafted, it goes to great lengths to set out the terms of that undertaking. Among other things, it means that before an MLA can participate in any Assembly proceedings, they must pledge to support the rule of law and to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality. Those are two of the detailed provisions in that new undertaking.
Having gone to such extraordinary lengths to draft that new undertaking to comply with the Stormont House agreement, the glaring omission—we cannot possibly allow this to get through the Committee unamended—is that no provisions refer to Standing Orders that will investigate alleged breaches of that undertaking, and no Standing Orders will impose sanctions on MLAs who are found to be guilty of such a breach. Let us hope that no MLA would ever stoop so low as to breach their own undertaking, but if such an allegation is made it must be investigated, and if the MLA is found to be guilty, there must be sanctions.
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The current drafting of clause 8(1)(2) is interesting, because we are already quite happy that:
“Standing Orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”
We are a sovereign Parliament—how often have I heard in recent weeks that sovereignty belongs to this Parliament—and the beauty of my amendment is that it simply adds to what we already have. Standing Orders will be introduced by the Assembly to investigate alleged breaches of the undertaking by MLAs, and to impose sanctions on MLAs who are in breach of that undertaking.
When I made that suggestion on Second Reading, the Secretary of State said in response to an intervention about sanctions:
“In terms of internal matters of discipline within the Assembly, that really is a matter for the Assembly itself to determine.”—[Official Report, 22 February 2016; Vol. 606, c. 72.]
Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Lady accept that the only sanction in the Bill is that those who do not give the undertaking in the first place cannot participate in the Assembly? There is not even a limit on how much time can pass before they can be expelled. In the light of some of the comments recently made by Sinn Féin, which said that republicans could use violence at another time, it is important that MLAs make that undertaking in the Stormont House agreement and are kept to it. If they make subsequent statements, there should be a process for investigating that and deciding what punishment should be imposed.
Lady Hermon: That is absolutely correct. The glaring omission—I am repeating myself, but it is worth repetition—is that although we have introduced a new undertaking for MLAs, that is not the same as the Minister’s pledge of office. That has been extended, and the Minister rightly read out the sanctions for Ministers who breach their pledge. This undertaking is completely new for all MLAs, and it is the duty of this Committee to ensure that when the Bill leaves this place, it is fit for purpose. The Bill has been introduced to get rid of paramilitary activity and associated criminality, which has been the scourge of Northern Ireland for years and years. For goodness’ sake, let us do it right!
The beauty of my amendment is that it does not interfere with the domestic arrangements and internal workings of the Assembly. It simply ensures that Standing Orders will be introduced by the Assembly, and that there will be a process of investigation and sanctions for a breach of the undertaking. That is not interfering with the Assembly’s internal discipline. That is my amendment, and if the Minister is unable to give me a satisfactory reassurance on that issue at the end of the debate, I will push the amendment to a vote.
Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Lady accept that there could be general frustration, because the Bill requires MLAs to give an undertaking, but if they breach that undertaking and there are no sanctions, people will say, “What is the point of MLAs giving those undertakings?” If anything, it will generate more anger, rather than assuring people that those who are elected and serve in the Assembly are supporting democratic means.
Lady Hermon:
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that. In introducing this group, the Minister referred to the fact that we currently do not have
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cross-community support for various Standing Orders. It is therefore the duty of this House today to make sure that when this legislation leaves this place, it is fit for purpose, and so it must include a requirement that Standing Orders are introduced to address both sanctions and the investigation of alleged—
Tom Elliott: I support the hon. Lady’s amendment and her thought process on this matter. Does she agree that it seems to have been a gap in the “Fresh Start” agreement that none of this was dealt with in that process?
Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. One has to ask why any references to sanctions were left out of the “Fresh Start” agreement. The fact that sanctions were not mentioned in that may well suit a political party—Sinn Féin. I am so weary of having spent my entire life having to deal with paramilitary activity. He made reference at the beginning of his contribution on the earlier group to Lisa Dorrian, the young lady in my constituency who was murdered and disappeared by those with loyalist paramilitary connections. Both loyalist and republican paramilitaries are a scourge for the rest of the community. I am very pleased that he is supporting me on my amendments this afternoon, because as an independent, I am totally reliant on other colleagues to provide an additional Teller at the vote and I may be calling on him later.
Jim Shannon: Lisa Dorrian disappeared from Ballyhalbert in my constituency. Searches took place in Comber, also in my constituency, but unfortunately nothing as to where she might have been buried was found. But there are people in society who are very aware of where she is, and some of those people have been named in the press. May I encourage the hon. Lady to make this statement, which I will also be making: there are people who have information about this, so let them come to the police, tell them where the body is and give Lisa Dorrian’s family the peace of mind that they need?
Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, as he is right in everything he has said. Lisa Dorrian, a young lady in her early 20s, was disappeared and murdered 11 years ago, and her family have never had the peace of mind that comes with a Christian burial. Her remains have never been found, despite the valiant efforts of the PSNI—and I put that on the record. There are others who were disappeared by the IRA, such as Columba McVeigh, a young man from Donaghmore whose remains have never been found. There is pain and grief on all sides. As I say, paramilitarism has been a dreadful scourge across the face of Northern Ireland for far, far too long. I have the highest regard for this Minister, so when he gets up I do not want to hear the Stormont House agreement cited as a reason why we cannot put into this Bill this afternoon a requirement that Standing Orders are introduced by the Assembly. No detail is being provided about the sanctions or about the investigative procedure in respect of a breach of the undertaking. The very least we can do for the people of Northern Ireland, including the grieving parents of Lisa Dorrian and Columba McVeigh, although his mother passed away some time ago—
Mr Wallace: Will the hon. Lady give way?
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Lady Hermon: Is the Minister about to concede? That is excellent and I will give way.
Mr Wallace: I wouldn’t hold your breath. I hear what the hon. Lady is saying, and I am not going to refer to the “Fresh Start” agreement, but I must ask why she feels it is appropriate for this House to impose on a devolved institution and prescribe to it Standing Orders within that institution? We would not be doing that for Holyrood or for Cardiff, so why does she think it would be appropriate in this case for Westminster to impose that on the Assembly, given that under Standing Order 69B it could make provision to deal with all of this?
2.15 pm
Lady Hermon: May I just ask the Minister to pick up the Bill and turn to page 5? As I have mentioned, the Bill already sets the precedent here, as in clause 8 it clearly states:
“Standing orders shall provide for the procedure for giving the undertaking.”
The Bill has therefore set the precedent; we are quite prepared to oblige the Assembly to introduce Standing Orders to provide for a procedure for this undertaking. That is why my amendments are so persuasive and why I am hopeful that Her Majesty’s Opposition—I am looking to them—will be supporting me this afternoon. I know that other colleagues are going to support me on this. The precedent has already been set, it is in black and white in the Bill and my amendments simply add further Standing Orders, without any detail about the sanctions or about the investigatory procedure.
Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Lady accept that the Bill states not only that Standing Orders “shall” do some things, but that they shall not do some things, as they
“may not specify a day or period of time after which members are prohibited from giving the undertaking”?
This House is already telling the Assembly what it can and cannot put in Standing Orders, so why not include something about sanctions?
Lady Hermon: I am grateful for that helpful intervention, as ever, from the hon. Gentleman. I am sure the Minister and the Government would not like to be accused of being inconsistent. We have to be consistent here. A consistent approach has to be taken to the eradication, once and for all, of paramilitary activity and all its criminality in Northern Ireland. The Minister will have read this Bill many times and when he carefully reads it again, he will know that the precedent has already been set. We in this House are the sovereign Parliament, thank goodness, and just as a show of sovereignty the Standing Orders are already provided for in several clauses. My amendments simply extend further Standing Orders, without any detail about the sanctions or the investigatory procedure.
On that, I will bring my remarks to a close, having warned the Minister that I will push my amendment to a vote at the end, with the help of volunteers to be Tellers.
Ms Ritchie:
A number of Members, including the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who raises this issue again through her amendment, have asked questions about the content and policing of the
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pledge and undertaking. That was done on Second Reading by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), as well as by the hon. Lady, who has enunciated her views on the principle again today.
I shall speak to my party’s amendments. Amendment 10 refers to paragraph (e) in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and clarifies that Ministers are already subject to a requirement to act in accordance with all decisions made by the Executive and the Assembly. Amendment 16 deals with clause 8, inserting the words “others, including” in the reference to MLAs. The provision might seem small, but it is central to the whole-community approach that will be needed to tackle paramilitary activity. It would compel Members of the Assembly to work with civic society in Northern Ireland, reflecting our approach during the Stormont House agreement of having that community approach to ridding Northern Ireland of paramilitarism.
I agree with the hon. Lady that paramilitarism has been a scourge and a cancer in our society, right across the community, and we want rid of it, but we also believe that there must be adherence the best democratic principles within our elected institutions. Our reference in amendment 15 to the Nolan principles would ensure that this progress and political action on paramilitarism extends to MPs, councillors and all in public office. Having the First Ministers make their pledge orally at a sitting of the Assembly would publicise a cross-executive commitment to a society free from the blight of paramilitarism. In our papers for the Stormont House talks, we advocated a community approach, stating:
“Political parties ought to be showing coherent and consistent shared standards which recognise and repudiate nefarious paramilitary interests and involvements. This should reflect a shared approach which is about rooting out paramilitarism and its trace activities, not just singling out particular groups or given parties.”
Our amendments would clarify the terms of the pledge and undertaking and avoid further misinterpretation or a tension between different parts of the pledge and undertaking. As I have said previously, the duty in the Bill to
“support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”
is vague and could be misinterpreted as supporting someone or a group that is determined to someday move away from paramilitarism. The SDLP is in favour of support for transition away from paramilitarism, but wants to ensure that that cannot be used to cover tolerance for paramilitary activity, for which there should be no tolerance. Combining what are currently two distinct precepts of the pledge and undertaking into one would reduce that risk.
I have direct experience of this issue. As a former Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, on Tuesday 16 October 2007—I remember the date exactly—I cut off funding to the conflict transformation initiative following advice from the then Chief Constable, deputy Chief Constable and others that the Ulster Defence Association was engaging in criminality. Maintaining that funding would have been construed as supporting paramilitarism, not transition, however determined the UDA was to do that someday.
Like the hon. Member for North Down, we have concerns about the policing of the pledge and undertaking. Any progress on tackling paramilitary activity is undermined
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by any suggestion that there are no consequences for non-compliance. I note that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) was making soundings in our direction. I hope he will see fit to support our amendments on sanctions in relation to the pledge and undertaking.
We envisage that the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Northern Ireland Assembly Commissioner for Standards would receive any complaints relating to breaches of the pledge and undertaking. Both could avail themselves of the services of a pledge adjudicator on a case-by-case basis, if that was felt to be appropriate. The whole purpose of our amendments is to ensure best compliance and conformity with good democratic principles, and that we have a total move away from the scourge of paramilitarism that has been in Northern Ireland society for far too long.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson: We support amendment 6, which was tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). There is much merit in what she says. When we ask Members of a legislature to give an undertaking that they will behave in a certain way and abide by certain principles, surely there should be some sanction when they breach those principles and their undertaking. We are not asking hon. Members—neither is the hon. Lady—to prescribe what the sanctions should be. We merely want to ensure, as is our duty as the sovereign Parliament, that the Standing Orders of the Northern Ireland Assembly reflect the need for such sanctions. It is our duty to legislate for this element of the Stormont agreement, and we believe that what the hon. Lady has proposed is sensible and prudent. This is a question of not just the politics of all this, but public confidence in the Northern Ireland Assembly, its operation and those who are elected to it.
We talk about a fresh start. We have Assembly elections on 5 May. The Members who will be elected to the Assembly for the first time after that election will be required to make this undertaking. I think that that is the appropriate moment when the Assembly should be saying that we can have no more of a situation in which some people may have been ambivalent in their attitude towards paramilitarism in the past. Everyone has to be very clear about where they stand and it is important to have the undertaking. It is also important, for public confidence and for the accountability of our public representatives, to have a sanction. It is for the Assembly to prescribe that sanction, but it is for this House to ensure that the requirement for that is in Standing Orders. We will support the hon. Lady’s amendment.
Mark Durkan: As my hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) said, the SDLP has tabled several amendments in this issue. I take on board what the Minister said in an attempt to give a “prebuttal” of our amendments, and I will come on to amendment 6, which was tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), when I speak to clause 8.
We have tabled amendments 8 to 12 to clause 7. The Minister tried to say there would be no tension in interpretation between different parts of the proposed pledge of office. Proposed new sub-paragraphs (cf) and (cg) of schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998—
“to work collectively with the other members of the Executive Committee to achieve a society free of paramilitarism”
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“to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality”—
could well find themselves in tension with another Minister’s understanding of proposed new sub-paragraph (cj), which is to
“support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism.”
My hon. Friend the Member for South Down described the situation in which she found herself. She tried, as stated in proposed sub-paragraph (cf), to
“work collectively with other members of the Executive…to achieve a society free of paramilitarism”,
and she was told at that time, “No, it’s in your Department. You do your own thing. You make that decision.” She then acted on the basis of, as in proposed sub-paragraph (cg), challenging
“all paramilitary activity and associated criminality”
only to find herself undermined by other members of the Executive, who said that they were actually discharging the requirement of proposed sub-paragraph (cj) as supporting
“those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism”.
That issue ended up in the courts, so there is already proven experience of exactly the contradictions and tensions that can exist between these things when they are different bullet points that can be quoted separately. This is a recipe for confusion, nonsense and obfuscation.
We also need to recognise that people will interpret various parts of the pledge differently. Will the Minister tell us whether denying something as paramilitary activity breaches the line in the pledge to
“challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality”?
When someone turns around and says, “Oh no, so and so is not engaged in paramilitary activity or associated criminality; they are a good republican,” does that mean they are in breach of proposed sub-paragraph (cg)? Is that a failure to challenge? Is denial a failure to challenge, or can denial exist alongside the commitment to challenge all paramilitary activity, because someone can say that as paramilitary activity and associated criminality is not defined by anybody else, it is what anybody wants to define it to be? This touches on a point made earlier by the hon. Member for South Antrim (Danny Kinahan) on the earlier group.
Clause 7 is wide open for misinterpretation and misapplication, which will lead to people being scandalised. It will not avoid us being in exactly the sort of crisis situation we had last year. In the aftermath of a horrible crime and comments that the Chief Constable could not avoid making, we then had political difficulties. The terms of the pledge of office and the undertaking are meant to avoid our being back in that situation, but they will clearly fail to do so. That is why we have tabled our amendments.
2.30 pm
Amendment 8 would ensure better reconciliation between paragraphs (cf) and (cj) so that the pledge would read:
“to work collectively with the other members of the Executive Committee to achieve a society free of paramilitarism…including agreed support measures for those who are evidently making the transition away from paramilitarism”.
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That recognises that the agreed support mechanisms would be those agreed by the Executive. It would not be people making up their own minds about what they were doing or how they were to interpret the words. The amendment seems solid and cogent.
The Minister pointed out an error in our printed amendment 10, in that it refers to “paragraph (e)”, but that is because we went back to the original 1998 Act, which of course was changed, including by the St Andrew’s agreement legislation. The aim of the amendment was to ensure that the commitment in the pledge of office, taken by Ministers, to act in accordance with all decisions of the Executive Committee and the Assembly was not trumped or qualified by paragraph (ck), which reads:
“to accept no authority, direction or control on my political activities other than my democratic mandate alongside my own personal and party judgment”.
Anyone could easily say that, in defying or failing to abide by a decision of the Executive, they were acting, in good conscience, in accordance with paragraph (ck). Why leave ourselves with such a difficulty? Our amendment would simply qualify paragraph (ck) so that it could not be read in absence of the overall commitment to respect the decisions of the Executive Committee and Assembly. I cannot see where the Minister gets his argument against that.
Our amendments to clause 8 seek to make good issues similar to those addressed in our amendments to clause 7 on the pledge. There is no provision for how an alleged breach would be investigated, just as, currently, there is no clear mechanism for dealing with alleged breaches of the ministerial code, or any other breaches of the pledge of office. As the person who drafted the first terms of the pledge of office when we were negotiating the Good Friday agreement, I recognise that that has been a consistent dereliction ever since.
It has been recognised several times since by various First Ministers and Deputy First Ministers that something needs to be done to make good that gap, but we keep tripping over issues and concerns that only re-open the gap, so we never actually fill it. Our amendments might not be the perfect filler, but Members should not pretend that a serious gap does not exist. What does adding these fine but confusing, inconsistent and arguable words achieve, given that there is no mechanism to investigate or to recommend that action be taken as a result of an investigation?
Our amendment 12 tries to make that good by providing that the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints—more frequently known as the Ombudsman—would receive any complaints and by giving them the power to appoint a pledge adjudicator. It might well be that some of the breaches need somebody with more legal competence or experience, so the amendment would provide for the commissioner to make such an appointment, in consultation with the Lord Chief Justice for Northern Ireland.
In respect of the pledge, we see the gap that the hon. Member for North Down talked about in respect of the undertaking in clause 8, and it was clear that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) agreed with that logic. If we recognise the gap in the undertaking, we should also recognise the serious gap in the pledge. There are people who have their own version of what constitutes paramilitary activity. Hon. Members have referred to past murders, such as those of Robert McCartney and Paul Quinn.
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There were people who ended up as Ministers or senior MLAs after the Executive was restored who tried to tell us that the IRA had no involvement in Robert McCartney’s murder and that it was an unfortunate example of knife culture. They were in complete denial. We also had the denial of the IRA’s involvement in Paul Quinn’s murder, as well as all the other denials. Let us recognise that there are issues. We hope that such issues and concerns do not arise again, but we cannot pretend that they will not; otherwise, why would we be passing the Bill in the first place? Why would we be having these pledges and undertakings if we thought the issues had disappeared?
Our amendment 11 to clause 7 would require the pledge of office to be taken orally in front of the Assembly by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, as was the original intention when we negotiated and wrote the agreement. It was intended that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, who were then to be elected jointly by the Assembly, would take the pledge of office together. That was why some parties supported the concept of the pledge of office—they liked what might be called the constitutional liturgy of their taking a joint pledge of office that referred unambiguously to serving all the people of Northern Ireland equally, along with the other principles.
It was for some other convenience—more a bureaucratic or procedural convenience—that a version was drawn up with words that allowed the First Minister and Deputy First Minister simply to affirm the terms of the pledge of office, as in the 1998 Act. I see no reason why there should not be a wider commitment. It would be more helpful, particularly given that we keep adding terms to the pledge of office. It would do no harm if they were actually vocalised. If that happened, people might remember and register them more and have more input.
The amendments to clause 8 take up parallel issues to those raised in our amendments to clause 7. They address and try to resolve the inconsistencies between the wording of different parts of the undertaking, not least between the sixth part and some of the other parts. Consistent with the whole community approach, we have tried to extend the wording so that the under- taking applies not just to working together with other Assembly Members but to working with others. Assembly Members need to work with councillors, MPs and other representatives in the community if we are serious about confronting paramilitarism, working together and supporting those making a transition. The idea that that falls to Assembly Members alone is nonsense. Again, our amendments are consistent with what we have said.
It is a bit much for the Minister to say, “We cannot have any amendments, because there was a consensus in the Fresh Start negotiations”. There was not a consensus for what we have ended up with in the “Fresh Start” agreement. He tells us that something on which there was no consensus was agreed as though there was a consensus. We are trying to fill in gaps that even DUP Members, who support the “Fresh Start” agreement, now see in the Bill. Perhaps the Bill does need to be improved. There is a consensus on these Benches that remedial work is needed, but still the Minister waves his hands and says, “No, there is no consensus for it”, while ignoring the consensus emerging on at least some of these points.
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Our amendment 17 would provide for the Assembly Commissioner for Standards to be the point of reference for complaints about the undertaking and allow the commissioner, if they want, to appoint somebody with particular experience to deal with complaints and to use the facility of the pledge adjudicator, as appointed by the Commissioner for Complaints. If there were complaints about the undertaking or the pledge, there would probably be parallel or rival complaints, and this facility would allow that to be taken care of and avoid separate and rival investigations into issues deemed to be relevant or paired.
That would help us to go forward. It is about making good the gap that the hon. Member for East Antrim talked about when he intervened on the hon. Member for North Down. There is no way of ensuring a standard of adherence to the undertaking, no way of investigating breaches, nowhere to take a complaint or anything else. That is where I have some difficulty with the proposal made by the hon. Member for North Down that the answer lies in Standing Orders. If there is a Division, I will support her proposal purely to show the deficiency of the Bill and the clause, but I do not believe that the answer lies in Standing Orders.
Standing Orders are about the conduct of business and proceedings in the House. They are not normally about investigating things that have happened outside the House or allegations of various activities or consorting with people engaged in various activities. I am not sure that dealing with investigations and sanctions is normally the stuff of Standing Orders, so I do not think that the proposal best answers the issue. That is why we have tried to answer it differently in our amendments.
Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, where Standing Orders set standards, the Assembly commissioner has something to work on, so if a complaint is made about whether someone has breached the pledge, there is at least a basis on which an investigation can take place?
Mark Durkan: Yes, I fully accept that, and the clause says that Standing Orders will lay down provision on how the undertaking is made. That is why it was nonsensical of the Minister to argue that we should not set things down in the Assembly’s Standing Orders, when that is precisely what the clause will do. The hon. Member for East Antrim seems to assume that the Assembly Commissioner for Standards would deal with the complaint, so perhaps he sees merit in our amendment that would ensure that someone could receive, consider and assess a complaint. Certainly, the more that those standards are explicit either in the Bill or in Standing Orders, the better; that is fine.
Of course the Assembly Commissioner for Standards does, among other things, address standards of public life. That is one reason why we have tabled amendment 15, to make it clear that the precepts and commitments in the undertaking would in effect be read alongside the Nolan principles, as part of the general standards of public life in Northern Ireland, so that MPs and councillors would be held to that standard. Let us remember that the commissioner deals with those issues separately and that we do not want to create inconsistencies where parties face allegations that their members said one thing at a council meeting and did something else as
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MLAs and MPs. We would then get into all sorts of confusion about who is amenable to what standards. Let us create consistency and clarity of standards.
In previous debates, Members have raised issues about what councillors from my party have done in different instances, and we have raised instances about what other people have said or done, or who they have consorted with in other situations. This is about trying to get us all beyond that and trying to ensure that everyone in all parties knows what standards are required of them and then adheres to those standards. That is why we have tabled that series of amendments to make good serious deficiencies.
The other rich argument that came from the Minister was that he said that there should be no question of our trying to deal with breaches either of the undertaking or the pledge. In one instance, he said that, after all, the Assembly has the power to censure Ministers; but of course any attempt to censure Ministers on any grounds in the Assembly so far has ended up being vetoed under the petition of concern. He therefore points us to an alternative that is something of a dead end.
If we are serious about trying to resolve these issues and about trying to ensure that no untoward incident triggers the sort of crisis that had the institutions teetering on the brink, as they were in the later part of last year, we need to do better than the Bill, and the Minister needs to do better than come up with humbug, shallow arguments about the degree of consensus about the “Fresh Start” agreement, when it is already clear, even from what has been said from these Benches, that everyone knows that that is very limited.
Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP): I will try to be as quick as possible because we are trying to get through a lot. As a party, we fully support trying to move the Stormont House agreement forward and we support the principles in the Bill, and we totally abhor the paramilitaries, so we know where we are trying to go; but although we want to get there as quickly as possible, we have rushed this too quickly. We have two major problems that run through the amendment. The one that we have discussed at great length is the lack of sanctions, and the other is the lack of a definition of “paramilitaries”.
To answer the question that the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) asked about other paramilitaries worldwide, when we go to the Falls Road, look at a wall there and see Basque and Colombian terrorists, Palestinians and others all being feted, we realise that this is larger than the sovereignty of this Parliament, and that this Parliament needs to use its sovereignty to do its best. We need to look at those matters.
2.45 pm
On sanctions, we fully support the very good amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). We really do need sanctions, and that is absolutely the right way to deal with the issue. I have notes—I will not go into them—on some five breaches by Ministers in Stormont and another four by MLAs breaking the regulations. Although they were deemed to be breaches, there were no sanctions. We need sanctions in place in time. Therefore, if we pass the Bill today, how do we get the Standing Orders written in time,
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so that someone taking the pledge knows what the Standing Orders say? We need to be very quick; otherwise, this seems slightly pointless.
We sympathise with most of the amendments on paramilitaries. We would like to see those amendments made, because there are other tensions, most of which I went through when I spoke on Second Reading, about how to define a paramilitary. We want our MLAs to be able to work and have influence on paramilitaries, without being seen as supporting them or being challenged from either side. Of course, within that are the flag issues and all sorts of other things, so I am very concerned about where we are going on that.
I shall move on to an amendment that no one seems to have spoken about: the Government amendment that will get the Speaker to carry on in position. I find that slightly rich. We have a system where the Father of the House is normally the person who carries out that role and can do it perfectly well. The Government are arguing that we are sovereign but we must not impose things on the Assembly, but they are doing exactly that in trying to put the Speaker in charge. I would like to know more about why we are going down that route.
We want to see the Bill work. We want to see things get better in Northern Ireland, and I think that hon. Members have probably heard enough from me.
Nigel Mills: I will make a couple of brief remarks. I think the whole Committee wholeheartedly supports any effort to tackle paramilitarism. I think we would all agree that anyone who engages in or supports paramilitarism has no place in a democratic assembly, making and enforcing laws. I absolutely agree that all the sentiments in the oaths make sense.
Where I get a little concerned is when we start talking about investigating and sanctioning breaches. We must be careful about exactly what some of these words could involve. What we have in these undertakings are not entirely pledges not to do things. They are pledges to do things, so we get phrases such as,
“to challenge all paramilitary activity and associated criminality”.
I could be accused of breaching that undertaking because I have not sufficiently challenged something. What does challenge mean? Does it mean that I should verbally dispute the validity of something? Should I say that paramilitary activity is heinous and I have therefore met that pledge, or should I be out on the streets of Belfast, physically challenging that activity where I see it?
“to challenge paramilitary attempts to control communities”
“to work collectively with other members of the Assembly”.
I am not sure how we can have a sensible situation where someone is investigated because they have not quite worked collectively enough with other Members on something. Would that happen because they had been working independently, not collectively, and therefore that would not count, or because they had been working a bit collectively but not collectively enough? I am not sure how we go from an oath that sets out undertakings and beliefs to something that we could try to investigate and enforce.
The Oath we take in this place is to be loyal to Her Majesty the Queen and her successors, but I do not think that Members get taken to the standards board
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because we have not quite been loyal enough to the Queen, or because something we have said has not been entirely consistent with the Oath. There is a separate code of conduct that we have to follow where the investigation of standards applies. We would not try to follow that from an oath. I am just not sure how the Members proposing the amendments could make the investigations and sanctions link to positive activities.
Sammy Wilson: First, we accept that if a pledge is made, there must be some way of measuring whether or not it has been lived up to. If it has not, there must be some way, by definition, of sanctioning someone for not doing so. Examples have been provided here today of how it is quite easy to work out whether or not someone has lived up to their pledge. If, for example, they make excuses for paramilitary activity or make excuses for people who have engaged in acts of violence, they are clearly not keeping to the pledge of office.
Nigel Mills: I entirely agree. Where someone says or does something that clearly contravenes the undertakings they have given, we should be able to investigate it and sanctions should be available for it. My slight worry is that the amendments might allow a complaint to be made that somebody had not sufficiently challenged all paramilitary activity—that they had not said enough times how heinous such activity is, or they might not have taken any physical action in the community, for example. I am not sure how it can be proved or enforced when somebody has not done something. That is my point. If we wanted a code of conduct that could be followed, it would have to be clear that people were prohibited from speaking or acting in any way in support of paramilitaries.
Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that if that were the case, the Assembly Commissioner, or whoever was making the adjudication, would be able to make a judgment about whether a complaint about the pledge of office was valid or not? It could be simply said, “Look, that is not what is meant by the pledge: it is not about the quantity; it is about whether someone should be condemned on the basis of support for paramilitary activity.”
Nigel Mills: I am sure that that could be said, but I am not sure whether that is set out in the amendments. We all know that such processes can be abused for partisan reasons, by people making scurrilous complaints that we know will never go anywhere, but which take up time and cause anxiety and spending.
Let me provide a further example. There is another pledge to support those who are determined to make the transition away from paramilitarism. There could be a complaint that somebody had not given sufficient support to those who wanted to move away from paramilitary activity. That would be a nonsense, because there could be many reasons why an individual might not have given that degree of support in that situation. What kind of support are they meant to be providing as an individual MLA? I think we need to be cautious about moving from a set of extremely well-meaning and well-intentioned objectives, such as enforcing
10 Mar 2016 : Column 502
acceptable pledges and undertakings, and making them into a code of conduct that I believe we would struggle to enforce sensibly in this form.
Stephen Pound: It all started so well when we started to debate this group. The Minister’s initial moves on timetabling were sensible and proportionate, and I believe would have been supported by the whole House. I think the key comments—these should be the leitmotif of this afternoon’s entire discussion—were about the creation of a society “free of paramilitarism”. That is the point we start from. That is where we want to go. It is the route to that desired state that we are discussing this afternoon.
We heard this afternoon a tour de force from the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). Sometimes I gain the impression that hers is a multi-Member constituency, because it seems almost impossible that one person could sway the Committee so effectively—and not for the first time, either. I hope that the hon. Lady will allow me, on behalf of my colleagues and, I am sure, all of us, to say what an immensely impressive case she made.
Come what may, the Government have to reflect and consult and reconsider. We have heard too much evidence this afternoon for us simply to allow this matter to slide through. We have heard some immense detail. The hon. Member for North Down talked about the conflicts that arose during her ministerial period. This provides yet another reason why we need to examine the case somewhat further.
The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) described to the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North Down as sensible and prudent, while also touching on a vital point. The right hon. Gentleman talked about public confidence, which I believe is very much at the heart of the matter. We can argue about the niceties, about interpretation and about angels dancing on the head of a pin. We can go through this catechism and ask whether people adhere to this precisely or not, but ultimately, the issue of public confidence is immensely important. There cannot be an area in the politics and daily life of Northern Ireland where there is a greater need for public confidence than in the transition away from paramilitarism and violence towards the desired state that I referred to earlier.
The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley also talked about identifying an ambivalence in attitude, and that feeds into some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills). There is a need for further finessing and interpretation. When the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) went through the clauses of the Bill in detail, he put his finger on the fact that we are still not entirely clear about what many of them mean. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott) also referred to that.
On behalf of my colleagues on the Opposition side of the Chamber, I call on the Government to take cognisance of the strength, the power and the logic of the arguments that they have heard on the Floor of the House today, not just because of the strength of those arguments but because of the impact that the proposals will have on civic life in Northern Ireland. What has been said today cannot be unsaid, and what has been done cannot be undone. We have to recognise the impact of what we have heard this afternoon. The Government have our
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entire support in this transition towards a good society and, as the SDLP put it when we debated an earlier amendment, a wholesome society.
Jim Shannon: I assume from what the hon. Gentleman is saying that we can rely on Labour’s support for the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) .
Stephen Pound: Labour Members will not be voting with the Government. We will be abstaining on this question, in the hope that the Government will be able to reflect and consult further and more widely. In this case, more than any other, there is a need for further discussion and consultation. We cannot simply rely on this one being forced through on a majority. The argument that we have heard today is far too powerful and far too relevant to be voted away.
Lady Hermon: I have to register my deep disappointment in Her Majesty’s official Opposition; I had expected better of them this afternoon. This is a very important debate for the people of Northern Ireland, who have had to live with paramilitary activity for so long. We would have it called terrorism, but we now define it as paramilitary activity. There is no difference between those people, however; they are terrorists by another name. I am deeply disappointed, and I would like the hon. Gentleman to explain the rationale for this decision by Her Majesty’s Opposition. He gave the House some good reasons earlier, and there is consensus on these Benches, so will he tell us what legitimate justification he has for sitting on his hands? Forgive me for putting it like that, but that is effectively what he and his colleagues are going to do this afternoon, and it is quite disgraceful.
Stephen Pound: I accept the lash that the hon. Lady applies, and to a certain extent I deserve it. However, the point that my colleagues and I would make is that we have to look at this matter further and in greater depth. More consultation needs to be done and more discussion needs to be heard. We have heard ambivalence on both sides of the House today, and questions have been asked about interpretation. It is essential that we get this right. Heaven knows, when the hon. Lady refers to living under terrorism, I know what she means but I can never precisely understand it because, thanks be to God, I have not experienced it myself. However, I have immense respect and admiration for those who have experienced it, and I hope that they will allow Labour Members to say that we have to get this right today.
We have to discuss these matters further. If the Government are prepared to extend an olive branch, to make an effort to consult more widely and to understand that this is not the best way forward, it will be appropriate for us neither to support nor to oppose them on this matter. I am sorry if I appear to be sitting on my hands. I apologise profoundly to those people who have been making the right points, but I hope they will understand that what we have heard today is not entirely a Manichaean argument. There have been many areas of interpretation, and it is there that we need to go. We need to get this right. This is not a binary choice. This is something that has to be discussed further.
Mr Wallace:
I shall be short, sharp and to the point. I have listened to the contributions today, and feel that I must take Members back to what the Bill is about,
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which is to enable the “Fresh Start” agreement to be implemented in law. That is the basis on which we must draw the line of consensus. I have heard the arguments of the SDLP that the “Fresh Start” agreement was not really a consensus—that actually no one was massively behind it.
3 pm
The fact is that the consensus was achieved after dozens and dozens of meetings throughout the autumn between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the other parties of Northern Ireland. That was the starting point.
In relation to this group of amendments, I have to refer hon. Members to paragraphs 2.6 and 2.7 of section A of the “Fresh Start” agreement, which is where the consensus was arrived at to allow us even to venture into changing the Standing Orders of the Northern Ireland Assembly for the purpose of amending the taking of the oath. That is as far as the consensus allows us to go; we cannot go beyond that.
The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) has been clear about her frustration over whether the Assembly will make Standing Orders to deal with breaches of the oath and of any other areas around paramilitarism. More than anyone else on the Government Benches, I understand the dangers of the paramilitaries, and am very, very keen to rub them out of history in Northern Ireland, but the fact is that the Northern Ireland Assembly set their Standing Orders to ensure that Members of the Legislative Assembly stick to their pledge and, should they not do so, to take a range of sanctions against them. That is in 69B of the Standing Orders. It is very important, therefore, that we say that it is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to set out their procedures to deal with those matters.
I understand the frustrations that have been expressed —we have listened to them—but that does not detract from the very important issue that our consensus starts and finishes with the “Fresh Start” agreement and, as it is specified, we cannot go beyond that. I have heard what hon. Members have had to say, but unfortunately the Government will not accept the amendments placed before us today.
Clause 6 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Undertaking by Members of the Assembly
Amendment proposed: 6, page 5, line 11, at end insert—
“(5) Standing orders must provide for a process for investigating any alleged breach of the undertaking by any member of the Assembly and for determining whether the undertaking has been breached.
(5A) Standing orders must provide for sanctions that shall apply to any member of the Assembly who has been found to breach the terms of the undertaking.”—(Lady Hermon.)
This amendment requires the Northern Ireland Assembly to have an enforcement process, comprising investigation, determination and penalty, in order to ensure compliance with the terms of the statutory undertaking by members of the Assembly
Question put, That the amendment be made.
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The Committee divided:
Ayes 9, Noes 201.
Division No. 212]
[
3.2 pm
AYES
Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M.
Durkan, Mark
Elliott, Tom
Hermon, Lady
Paisley, Ian
Ritchie, Ms Margaret
Robinson, Gavin
Simpson, David
Wilson, Sammy
Tellers for the Ayes:
Jim Shannon
and
Danny Kinahan
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Allan, Lucy
Amess, Sir David
Andrew, Stuart
Ansell, Caroline
Argar, Edward
Atkins, Victoria
Bacon, Mr Richard
Baker, Mr Steve
Baldwin, Harriett
Barwell, Gavin
Bellingham, Sir Henry
Benyon, Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, James
Boles, Nick
Bradley, Karen
Brazier, Mr Julian
Bruce, Fiona
Burns, Conor
Burns, rh Sir Simon
Burrowes, Mr David
Carmichael, Neil
Cartlidge, James
Cash, Sir William
Caulfield, Maria
Chishti, Rehman
Chope, Mr Christopher
Churchill, Jo
Cleverly, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coffey, Dr Thérèse
Collins, Damian
Costa, Alberto
Cox, Mr Geoffrey
Davies, Chris
Davies, David T. C.
Davies, Mims
Davis, rh Mr David
Dinenage, Caroline
Donelan, Michelle
Double, Steve
Doyle-Price, Jackie
Drax, Richard
Duncan, rh Sir Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain
Ellis, Michael
Ellison, Jane
Ellwood, Mr Tobias
Elphicke, Charlie
Eustice, George
Evans, Graham
Evennett, rh Mr David
Fabricant, Michael
Fernandes, Suella
Foster, Kevin
Fox, rh Dr Liam
Frazer, Lucy
Freeman, George
Freer, Mike
Fysh, Marcus
Ghani, Nusrat
Gibb, Mr Nick
Glen, John
Gove, rh Michael
Grant, Mrs Helen
Gray, Mr James
Green, Chris
Green, rh Damian
Greening, rh Justine
Griffiths, Andrew
Gummer, Ben
Halfon, rh Robert
Hall, Luke
Hammond, rh Mr Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, rh Greg
Harper, rh Mr Mark
Harris, Rebecca
Hart, Simon
Heald, Sir Oliver
Heappey, James
Henderson, Gordon
Herbert, rh Nick
Hinds, Damian
Hoare, Simon
Hollinrake, Kevin
Hollobone, Mr Philip
Huddleston, Nigel
Hurd, Mr Nick
James, Margot
Jayawardena, Mr Ranil
Jenkyns, Andrea
Jenrick, Robert
Johnson, Boris
Johnson, Gareth
Jones, Andrew
Jones, rh Mr David
Jones, Mr Marcus
Kennedy, Seema
Kirby, Simon
Kwarteng, Kwasi
Latham, Pauline
Leadsom, Andrea
Lefroy, Jeremy
Leslie, Charlotte
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Lewis, Brandon
Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian
Lidington, rh Mr David
Lilley, rh Mr Peter
Lopresti, Jack
Loughton, Tim
Mackinlay, Craig
Mackintosh, David
Mak, Mr Alan
Malthouse, Kit
Mann, Scott
Mathias, Dr Tania
Maynard, Paul
McCartney, Jason
Merriman, Huw
Metcalfe, Stephen
Milling, Amanda
Mills, Nigel
Milton, rh Anne
Morris, Anne Marie
Morton, Wendy
Mowat, David
Murray, Mrs Sheryll
Murrison, Dr Andrew
Newton, Sarah
Nokes, Caroline
Nuttall, Mr David
Offord, Dr Matthew
Parish, Neil
Patel, rh Priti
Paterson, rh Mr Owen
Penning, rh Mike
Percy, Andrew
Phillips, Stephen
Philp, Chris
Pincher, Christopher
Pow, Rebecca
Prisk, Mr Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Quin, Jeremy
Quince, Will
Raab, Mr Dominic
Rees-Mogg, Mr Jacob
Rosindell, Andrew
Rudd, rh Amber
Sandbach, Antoinette
Scully, Paul
Sharma, Alok
Shelbrooke, Alec
Skidmore, Chris
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Henry
Smith, Royston
Soames, rh Sir Nicholas
Soubry, rh Anna
Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline
Spencer, Mark
Stephenson, Andrew
Stewart, Bob
Stewart, Iain
Stewart, Rory
Stride, Mel
Sturdy, Julian
Sunak, Rishi
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Swire, rh Mr Hugo
Thomas, Derek
Throup, Maggie
Tolhurst, Kelly
Tomlinson, Justin
Tomlinson, Michael
Tracey, Craig
Tredinnick, David
Trevelyan, Mrs Anne-Marie
Truss, rh Elizabeth
Tugendhat, Tom
Turner, Mr Andrew
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Vickers, Martin
Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa
Walker, Mr Robin
Wallace, Mr Ben
Warburton, David
Wharton, James
Whately, Helen
Whittaker, Craig
Whittingdale, rh Mr John
Wiggin, Bill
Williamson, rh Gavin
Wilson, Phil
Wilson, Mr Rob
Wood, Mike
Wragg, William
Tellers for the Noes:
George Hollingbery
and
Stephen Barclay
Question accordingly negatived.
10 Mar 2016 : Column 506
Mark Durkan: I beg to move amendment 18, in clause 9, page 5, line 42, at end insert—
‘( ) Statements laid before the Assembly under this section must include information on—
(a) how the total figures in the statement have been calculated,
(b) the application of any funding formula used by Her Majesty’s Government in determining the amount of UK funding for that year as notified to the Minister by the Secretary of State,
(c) the extent to which Her Majesty’s Government’s spending plans, on which the funding formula is based, have been informed or affected by statutory requirements or obligations, including specific clarification on—
(i) the consequential budgetary effects of any primary legislation resulting from Bills brought before the House of Commons after 22 October 2015, which related exclusively (in whole or in part) to either England and Wales, on matters within the devolved competence of any or all of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament or the. National Assembly for Wales, with indications on how these have been factored into the funding formula.
10 Mar 2016 : Column 507
(ii) any Regulations or other secondary legislation laid before the House of Commons after 22 October 2015, which related exclusively to either England or England and Wales, on matters within the devolved competence of any or all of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament or the National Assembly for Wales, with indications on how these have been factored into the funding formula .
(d) the ring-fencing of funding by Treasury for bespoke purposes,
(e) UK wide or non-devolved funding measures for which services, enterprises or persons in Northern Ireland may be eligible, and
(f) the impact of any relevant implications for Northern Ireland arising from the Charter for Budget Responsibility.
( ) The Minister of Finance and Personnel must lay before the Assembly further timely statements providing additional information on the effect on funding for the Northern Ireland Assembly‘s budget of—
(a) other spending decisions or announcements by the Treasury or the Secretary of State which might have implications for the devolved spending remit by either adding to or subtracting from previously announced or approved plans,
(b) the ring-fencing of funding by Treasury for bespoke purposes,
(c) any legislative changes affecting the totals of spending by or on behalf of the UK Government and
(d) UK-wide or non-devolved funding measures for which services, enterprises or persons in Northern Ireland may be eligible.”
This amendment requires transparency in statements laid with the budget, to show how figures were calculated, the application of the Barnett formula and the consequences of legislative changes made where EVEL applied; and requires additional statements on the consequences for Northern Ireland of other legislation and spending decisions.
The Temporary Chair (Sir Edward Leigh): With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part.
Before I call Mr Durkan, I should say that these proceedings have to finish by 3.45. It is of course up to Members how they progress, but we do not have a great deal of time. Short speeches would be appreciated.
Mark Durkan: The Government have included clause 9 in the Bill in the name of transparency. I am certainly all for transparency in Budgets, be it here or in the Assembly, and I say that as a former Minister of Finance and Personnel in the Assembly.
Amendment 18 would make the transparency more articulate when the Minister of Finance lays a new statement before the Assembly to reflect the sum allocated to the Executive under the Barnett formula. It should not be just about a figure; it should explain how the figure was reached and the formula that was used to arrive at it.
The amendment is also about making good concerns expressed by parties not just in Northern Ireland but in other devolved areas that legislation passed in this House that conditions the overall plans in the Budget has consequential impacts on the Barnett formula. The Government deny that that is so. Many of us in the devolved parties believe that it is so. The best way of knowing is exactly by having the sort of transparency that amendment 18 would provide.
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The transparency is also about avoiding the confusion around Budget announcements. Sometimes the Chancellor will talk about money that is available to Northern Ireland going directly to the Executive under the Barnett formula. Other times money will come from UK-wide funds or it is challenge funds that Northern Ireland is eligible for. Other money is also allocated to Northern Ireland on a purely ring-fenced basis. Often there is confusion about the different sums. Hon. Members are confused when we ask questions during Budget procedures. Members of the Assembly are confused and of course, the public, whose money we are talking about, are completely confused. So if there are to be benefits to transparency, let us make sure that the transparency is complete and articulate. That is what amendment 18 is about.
Mr Wallace: Clause 9 delivers the commitment, set out in the “Fresh Start” agreement, that the Government would legislate to promote increased transparency in the setting of Executive budgets. The clause amends section 64 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. It requires the Northern Ireland Finance Minister to lay a statement in the Assembly specifying the amount of UK Government funding available for the financial year, as calculated by the Treasury and notified by the Secretary of State. The Finance Minister’s statement must be laid at least 14 days in advance of the introduction of a draft Executive budget.
Upon laying the draft budget, the clause also requires that the Finance Minister issues a further statement showing that the amount of Government funding required by the draft budget does not exceed that specified by the Secretary of State. The clause also makes provision for a similar process to be followed if there is any change in the level of Government funding provided to the Executive. If this occurs, the Secretary of State can notify the Finance Minister of the change in funding. Within four months, the Finance Minister must inform the Assembly of this notification and specify the revisions to expenditure proposals required as a result of the Secretary of State’s notification. In providing for greater transparency around Executive finances, this clause will encourage affordable and sustainable budgets going forward.
I do have some sympathy with the aim of amendment 18, which is to bring about further transparency in the budgetary process—that is what I think clause 9 already achieves. I understand there to be two main purposes behind the amendment to the provisions in the Bill which deal with the draft Budgets presented to the Northern Ireland Assembly.
To deal with subsections (a) and (b) in the amendment, the inner workings of the Barnett formula are sometimes unfairly characterised as opaque. In fact all of the information which underlies the calculations and therefore the calculation of the block grant is set out in the Treasury publication known as the “Statement of Funding Policy”.
As will once again be evident when the Chancellor presents his Budget next week, the Barnett consequentials for Northern Ireland relating to funding decisions taken by the Treasury will be communicated to the Northern Ireland Executive almost instantly upon the Chancellor taking his seat. It is the intention behind the provisions in this Bill to make it possible for Assembly Members—and parliamentarians in this House who take an interest—
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to more easily work out what is going on under the surface to deliver the Executive’s budgetary allocations from the Treasury. I want to reassure hon. Members that the Northern Ireland Office is working closely with the Treasury and the relevant Northern Ireland Departments to determine the format of the new statement that the Finance Minister will be obliged to lay in the Assembly. The statement will necessarily include information on the application of the Barnett formula and its outcomes.
We do not believe the provisions set out in paragraphs (a) and (b) of the amendment will achieve the aims intended, or that they are necessary. In fact, a statement which simply said that “the amount of UK funding included in this statement was calculated by the Treasury with reference to the statement of funding policy” would be technically compliant with the amendment. I do not believe that that is the intent. I ask hon. Members to take it that we will ensure that the statements, when made, are more informative on a voluntary basis than such legislation would compel them to be.
Paragraph (c) of the amendment is of a rather different character, and the Government cannot accept the logic behind it. Indeed, matters related to this subject were debated at some length when the House considered the proposals for English votes for English laws. It is not possible to calculate changes to the block grants on a Bill-by-Bill basis.
The block grant allocations to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly are calculated at spending reviews and adjusted following decisions taken at fiscal events such as Budgets or autumn statements on overall Whitehall departmental budgets. Approval from Parliament to pay funds into the respective devolved Consolidated Funds is granted through the Supply estimates process—itself not subject to EVEL.
Even when a Bill’s impact assessment identifies extra spending or savings, implicitly or explicitly through a money resolution, in many cases this decision may not impact on the size of the block grant at all. So the intent which I understand to be behind the amendment would have no practical effect. The relevant part of the Finance Minister’s statement would say, every time he or she made it, that no effects of the type specified in the legislation has been identified.
In relation to paragraph (d) of the amendment, there is no reason why the statement to be made by the Finance Minister should not clarify any elements of ring-fenced funding being made available to the Executive. However, given the reservations that I explained earlier about the need to prescribe every aspect in legislation, I ask again that hon. Members accept that we will work closely with the Finance Minister to ensure that sufficient detail is made available to permit proper scrutiny and understanding of the various funding sources available to the Executive.
On paragraphs (e) and (f) of the amendment, I am afraid that we are unclear precisely what is intended by the proposed provisions. The Executive’s block grant does not generally include non-devolved elements of funding, and the charter for budget responsibility sets out obligations for the UK Government, not for the Northern Ireland Executive.
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Finally, much of what is provided for in the final proposed subsection, which would require the Finance Minister to lay “further timely statements”, is already achieved by the existing provisions. New subsection 64(1C) to (1E) will compel the Finance Minister to lay new statements to the Assembly under certain circumstances if notified of changes to the level of UK funding available. The new statements will not, however, be any more able to deal with the questions of changes provoked by legislative provision at Westminster than as explained previously in relation to English votes for English laws.
I urge hon. Members to withdraw their amendment.
I beg to move that clause 9 stand part of the Bill.
Mark Durkan: I am not persuaded by any of the Minister’s arguments in respect of the quality of the amendment, but I can assure him that I will not press it to a Division.
The Minister said he was not sure that paragraphs (e) and (f) were needed. Paragraph (e) relates to the Chancellor’s own statement. Often there is confusion about whether the money made available to Northern Ireland is in the Northern Ireland budget or not. The aim was to ensure greater clarity for Members in this House, Members of the Assembly and the public.
“the impact of any relevant implications for Northern Ireland arising from the Charter for Budget Responsibility.”
The charter for budget responsibility is becoming increasingly important. Like other measures, it was probably bubble-wrapped as a neutral budgetary tool originally, but neutral budgetary tools end up being cuts weapons in the hands of the Treasury. The aim of the amendment was to ensure that that is understood. Let us remember that the welfare cap is part of the charter for budget responsibility. We want to ensure three-dimensional transparency in relation to budgetary matters.
I am glad that there are some aspects of the amendment the Minister would want to see reflected in the further outworkings of clause 9 and that he feels confident they will be. I do not share that confidence, but I will not tax the House with a Division. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Regulations
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Temporary Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment 2, in clause 11, page 6, line 25, leave out “section 10” and insert “sections 10, (Victims and survivors), (Election of the First Minister)”
This amendment provides for NC1 and NC2 to come into force on the day on which this Bill is passed.
New clause 1—Victims and survivors—
In Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006, at the end insert—
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“(3) In this Order references to victim and survivor shall not include an individual appearing to the Commission to be any of the following—
(a) someone who is or has been physically or psychologically injured as a result of or in consequence of their undertaking a criminal act in a conflict related incident;
(b) someone who was in whole or in part responsible for an unlawful conflict related incident if that person took part in all or any of the planning or execution of that unlawful act.””
This new clause provides that persons injured as a result of criminal acts in conflict related incidents cannot be treated as victims or survivors if they were themselves responsible for those criminal acts.
New clause 2—Election of the First Minister—
‘(1) The Northern Ireland Act 1998 is amended as follows.
(2) Omit sections 16A (appointment of First Minister, deputy First Minister and Northern Ireland Ministers following Assembly election, 16B (vacancies in the office of First Minister or deputy First Minister) and 16C (sections 16A and 16B: supplementary).
(3) Before section 17 (Ministerial offices) insert—
“A17 First Minister and deputy First Minister
(1) Each Assembly shall, within a period of two weeks beginning with its first meeting, elect from among its members the First Minister and deputy First Minister.
(2) Each candidate for either office must stand for election jointly with a candidate for the other office.
(3) Two candidates standing jointly shall not be elected to the two offices without the support of a majority of the members voting in the election, a majority of the designated Nationalists voting and a majority of the designated Unionists voting.
(4) The First Minister and deputy First Minister—
(a) shall not take up office until each of them has affirmed the terms of the pledge of office; and
(b) subject to the provisions of this Part, shall hold office until the conclusion of the next election for First Minister and deputy First Minister.
(5) The holder of the office of First Minister or deputy First Minister may by notice in writing to the Presiding Officer designate a Northern Ireland Minister to exercise the functions of that office—
(a) during any absence or incapacity of the holder; or
(b) during any vacancy in that office arising otherwise than under subsection (7)(a);
but a person shall not have power to act by virtue of paragraph (a) for a continuous period exceeding six weeks.
(6) The First Minister or the deputy First Minister—
(a) may at any time resign by notice in writing to the Presiding Officer; and
(b) shall cease to hold office if he or she ceases to be a member of the Assembly otherwise than by virtue of a dissolution.
(7) If either the First Minister or the deputy First Minister ceases to hold office at any time, whether by resignation or otherwise, the other—
(a) shall also cease to hold office at that time; but
(b) may continue to exercise the functions of his or her office until the election required by subsection (8).
(8) Where the offices of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister become vacant at any time an election shall be held under this section to fill the vacancies within a period of six weeks beginning with that time.
(9) Standing orders may make provision with respect to the holding of elections under this section.
(10) In this Act “the pledge of office” means the pledge of office which, together with the code of conduct to which it refers, is set out in Annex A to Strand One of the Belfast Agreement (the text of which Annex is reproduced in Schedule 4).””
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This new clause provides for the First Minister and deputy First Minister to be elected jointly by the whole Assembly, provided that the joint candidates for those posts also have a majority among both the designated Nationalists and the designated Unionists voting in the election.
New clause 3—Appointment of First Ministers—
In Section 16A of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Appointment of First Ministers and Northern Ireland Ministers following Assembly election)—
(a) subsections (4) to (7) and (9) shall cease to have effect,
(b) after subsection (3) there shall be inserted—
“(4) Each candidate for the joint office of First Ministers must stand for election jointly with a candidate for the other office.
(5) Two candidates standing jointly shall not be elected to the two offices without the support of a majority of the members voting in the election, a majority of the designated Nationalists voting and a majority of the designated Unionists voting.
(a) shall not take up office until each of them has affirmed the terms of the pledge of office before the Assembly; and
(b) subject to the provisions of this Part, shall hold office until the conclusion of the next election for First Ministers.
(c) in subsection (3)(b) the reference to subsections (4) to (7) shall be replaced by a reference to subsections (4) to (6).””
This new clause provides for the First Ministers to be elected jointly by the whole Assembly, provided that the joint candidates for those posts also have a majority among both the designated Nationalists and the designated Unionists voting in the election, rather than appointed by the nominating officers of the largest political parties of the largest and second largest political designations. This would revert to provisions of the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
New clause 4—Implementation and Reconciliation Group—
‘(1) An Implementation and Reconciliation Group will be established to oversee progress on, and adherence to, commitments in the Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan and other relevant agreements.
(2) The Implementation and Reconciliation Group, serving as a forum of joint purpose for reconciliation and normalisation involving Assembly parties and both governments, may receive and make reports and offer advice and recommendations.
(3) The Implementation and Reconciliation Group will have eleven members, including a chair.
(4) Publicly elected representatives will not be eligible for appointment as members of the Implementation and Reconciliation Group.
(5) The chair of the Implementation and Reconciliation Group must be a person of independent and international standing, nominated jointly by the First Ministers.
(6) The other appointments to the Implementation and Reconciliation Group will comprise eight members nominated to reflect the party proportions among the elected members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, one member nominated by the Secretary of State and one nominated by the Government of Ireland.”
This new clause would establish a group comprising of nominees of Assembly parties, whether represented in the Executive or not, and nominees of both governments to appraise progress on agreed objectives and plans in pursuit of reconciliation and normalisation.
‘(1) Section 75 (statutory duty on public authorities) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (1), after paragraph (d) insert—
“(e) between those who are victims and survivors of the conflict and those who are not; and
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(f) between those who have been members of Her Majesty’s armed forces and those who are not.”
(3) After subsection (1), insert—
“(1A) A person is excluded from any benefit arising from this Act by virtue of (1)(e) if that person has been convicted of a serious criminal conviction.”
(4) In subsection (5), insert at the appropriate places—
“serious criminal conviction” means a conviction, whether the person was convicted in Northern Ireland or elsewhere, for an offence for which—
(a) a sentence of imprisonment of five years or more was imposed,(b) a sentence of imprisonment for life was imposed;
“victim and survivor of the conflict” is defined as—
(a) any person who has suffered harm caused by an act related to the conflict in Northern Ireland, for which they are not wholly or partly responsible, that is in violation of the criminal law,(b) any person who provides a substantial amount of care on a regular basis for a person as outlined in paragraph (a), where the harm suffered is a physical or psychological injury.”
This new clause provides for a change to section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to add to the list of exemptions victims and survivors of the conflict and members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces. It also provides a definition of victims and survivors of the conflict.
Mr Wallace: The next group covers general provisions and new clauses. Clause 10 provides for the parliamentary procedure to be used for the regulation-making powers in the Bill, while clause 11 provides for the short title, commencement and extent.
Amendment 2 is consequential to new clauses 1 and 2, which I will speak to in a moment. The amendment would change the commencement provisions so that those new clauses would come into force at Royal Assent.
New clause 1, tabled by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott), concerns the definition of a victim in relation to the role of the Commission for Victims and Survivors. When it comes to the past, it is clear that victims should be our first priority. I am aware that the definition of a victim is a matter of contention.
The legislation that currently deals with the concept of a victim in the context of legacy matters in Northern Ireland is for the purposes of the Commission for Victims and Survivors. The Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 was passed by the previous Labour Government. This is now a devolved matter and therefore the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Accordingly, the Commission for Victims and Survivors is the responsibility of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.
Under the order, “victim and survivor” means a person appearing to the commission to be a person who was physically or psychologically injured as a result of a conflict-related incident, who regularly provides substantial care for such a person, or who is bereaved as a result of a conflict-related incident. It includes persons who are psychologically injured as a result of being a witness to an incident or of providing medical or emergency assistance to a person in connection with an incident.
Under that definition, it is possible for someone who was a perpetrator of violence, or a member of their family or their carer, to be defined as a victim, and to benefit from the commission’s assistance. We believe
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that there is a clear distinction between innocent victims and perpetrators, just as we have stated that we will never accept equivalence between those who sought to defend democracy and those who attempted to destroy it.
Members of the House will be aware of the significant progress made on legacy issues during the Stormont House talks towards the end of 2014. That included the Northern Ireland Executive agreeing to the recommendation from the Commission for Victims and Survivors of a new mental trauma service better to meet needs in that area. Advocate-counsellor assistance was also agreed for victims and survivors, to provide support and to help individuals to access relevant services.
I know that the definition remains highly controversial with not only the Northern Ireland parties, but many people in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. In my recent discussions, it has been very much a live concern for the parties, but it did not form any substantive part of the two rounds of talks that led to the Stormont House and “Fresh Start” agreements.
As a devolved matter, any change to the definition would require cross-community support in the Assembly, and I am sure Members will agree that the matter is best resolved by the political parties in Northern Ireland. The establishment of the institutions agreed under the Stormont House agreement still represents the best chance of making progress on these matters.
New clause 5 relates to members of the armed forces, victims and survivors. I do not think I need to clarify further for colleagues my empathy and respect for members of our armed forces. I welcome the support that the DUP and others are evidencing by raising these issues today. It is vital that they know their interests are represented here and at Stormont.
The dedication, professionalism and courage of the armed forces were key factors that ensured that terrorism did not succeed during the troubles. More than 1,000 members of the security forces lost their lives during Operation Banner, securing and maintaining the rule of law in Northern Ireland. Without those sacrifices, and those of a great many others who served in the armed forces during the troubles, the peace process would simply not have succeeded.
Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 is about promoting equality of opportunity, and the need to ensure people are not disadvantaged. I have made it a priority in my time as Minister to listen and respond to the concerns of serving and retired members of our armed forces. They are concerned about a rewriting of the past and about a one-sided approach to resolving legacy issues. They are concerned that there should never be a repetition of the circumstances that occurred during the troubles.
There has been no indication that former or serving servicemen and women have been adversely affected by section 75, so the Government do not think it is right to alter it.
3.30 pm
The Government cannot support the proposal becoming law. We would not want the status of members of the armed forces in Northern Ireland to become the subject of political controversy, and the measure would give rise to a real risk of creating difficulties where none currently exist. The best way to deal with the concerns
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that members of the armed forces have raised with me is for all parties to deliver on the commitments in the Stormont House agreement. That includes a historical investigations unit, which will address the perceived one-sided nature of the status quo by investigating all outstanding troubles-related deaths, in chronological order, unless there is a good reason not to do so. It includes the commitment by the Northern Ireland Executive to explore the idea of a victims’ pension. Many former servicemen and women feel that they are the forgotten victims of the troubles, and that provides an appropriate recognition of their status.
The commitments also include improved support services for those defined as victims, who often suffer from mental trauma. I was delighted to learn this week that Combat Stress has been awarded a grant of £500,000 from LIBOR funding to roll out mental health services in Northern Ireland and to make sure that those service personnel who may feel that they are not being prioritised or receiving the service they deserve do in fact get that delivered. I have pushed for that since I was first appointed and I am delighted that we can now, I hope, improve their lot.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Will that cover men and women in the uniform of the Ulster Defence Regiment?
Mr Wallace: The aftercare service is available to former members of both the Royal Irish Regiment and the UDR, and it has, in effect, been moved into a main initiative to carry on looking after them. I visited the service last year and it provides excellent support.
Members of the armed forces and, indeed, the security forces are, of course, at the forefront of our minds with regard to providing that support. It will be up to Combat Stress and the armed forces to decide how they divide the money and deliver the service.
Jim Shannon: I am pleased that Combat Stress has been allocated money, but many other organisations in Northern Ireland, including Beyond the Battlefield, SSAFA and regimental associations, do good work with veterans and former personnel. How can they take part in the process and access some of the LIBOR funding that has been set aside for one specific organisation?
Mr Wallace: People can access a range of veterans organisations, including regimental associations and the Royal British Legion, as well as the Government themselves through the Ministry of Defence and Veterans UK, and I encourage them to do so. Perhaps I should declare an interest: I lost 30% of my sight while serving in East Tyrone on a tour of Northern Ireland in 1994, so perhaps I will be covered by the definition of a victim. It is important that we help the victims and recognise that they are not equated with the terrorists and those who sought to spread murder and chaos.
I am afraid that the Government will oppose the measures that have been tabled, but we call on Members to continue to work with us on resolving the legacy issues. As well as people’s physical suffering, we must consider their mental health and how they deal with memories of the past. This is about not only drawing a line under what has happened, but allowing people to know as much as possible about what happened to their loved ones or, indeed, themselves. The narrative of,
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“It wasn’t the terrorists fault,” that is being pushed has the negative effect of preying on people’s bereavement by trying to come up with a ready excuse that it was not actually the terrorists who killed their husband or wife, but somebody else all along. That preys on people’s fears and their real pain, and those who seek to do that should be ashamed of themselves.
Tom Elliott: I hear what the Minister says about the definition of a victim being a matter for the Northern Ireland legislature, but does he agree that the definition is unfair in its present form, in which a perpetrator of violence is equated with those throughout society who were badly harmed, murdered and maimed?
Mr Wallace: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is totally wrong to equate the two. I believe that the remedy for that is in the Northern Ireland Assembly, which is where the power to amend the definition of victims lies. I urge the Assembly always to keep at the forefront of its mind the fact that the two are not the same, because that will go further than us, as a Government, imposing that change.
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson: I beg to differ with the Minister about this. Many victims and survivors who were affected by the troubles in Northern Ireland neither reside in nor came from Northern Ireland; in fact, they may even be the Minister’s constituents. Given that hundreds of soldiers who were injured or killed in Northern Ireland came from Great Britain, that police officers came from Great Britain and that civilians were injured in Great Britain in acts of terrorism committed in connection with the troubles, to suggest that the definition of victim and survivor is a matter to be dealt with by the Northern Ireland Assembly misses the point. Victims and survivors came from all over the United Kingdom, so it is for this Parliament to determine who is a victim and survivor.
Mr Wallace: I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I do not disagree with a large part of it, but the Bill deals with the “Fresh Start” agreement—the Stormont House agreement—in so far as it applies in Northern Ireland. I am sure that there will be further opportunities to redefine “victims” as that term would apply in the United Kingdom. Under the previous Government, the Ministry of Justice did a lot of work to ensure that the criminal injuries compensation scheme did not extend to burglars, robbers and everyone else who had managed to claim against it when they had perpetrated a crime. Precedents in United Kingdom law, or certainly in English and Welsh law, make that difference clear. I hear loud and clear what the right hon. Gentleman says, and I hope that there will be opportunities to address that in future legislation, but today we are considering this Bill, which is a consequence of the “Fresh Start” agreement.
New clause 4 would establish the implementation and reconciliation group, which is one of four new bodies to be established as part of the Stormont House agreement. The others are, as we had hoped, the historical investigations unit, the independent commission on information retrieval and the oral history archive. Members will be aware that the Government continue to support the establishment of all those bodies and the other measures in the Stormont House agreement. However, for reasons that
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I will set out, we do not agree that it would be a positive step to move ahead with the IRG in the absence of the other bodies and measures. The IRG and the other measures to deal with Northern Ireland’s past require cross-community support in Northern Ireland and must be dealt with as part of the package of bodies and measures proposed in the Stormont House agreement.
As I have mentioned, the IRG is an integral part of the four bodies proposed in the Stormont House agreement. The Government have committed £150 million towards the establishment of those bodies as part of our commitment to help Northern Ireland to deal with its troubled past. The design and implementation of the bodies was considered as part of the intense negotiations during the “Fresh Start” legacy talks, but the establishment of the IRG and the other legacy mechanisms could not be agreed at the time. The Government continue to work on making progress on the legacy strand of those negotiations. As is set out in the Stormont House agreement, the Government support much of what was proposed. The IRG should receive and commission reports; it should promote reconciliation; it should be appointed by Northern Irish political parties, the UK Government and the Irish Government; and it should have a chair of international standing who is nominated jointly by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.
As Members know, there have been a number of previous initiatives aimed at addressing the legacy of Northern Ireland’s troubled past, and they have all recognised that it cannot be reduced to a one-dimensional issue. No single approach or solution will work in isolation; a concerted and multifaceted approach is required. The Stormont House agreement makes it clear that the four legacy bodies are intended to constitute a package of measures to deal with the past, each addressing a different dimension of this difficult issue.
I suggest that establishing the IRG on its own would not ultimately promote reconciliation, although that is a key function of the body. I say that because the proposed new clause ignores many of the ingredients acknowledged by the political parties in Northern Ireland as integral to dealing with Northern Ireland’s past. Those ingredients must address the suffering of victims and survivors, facilitate the pursuit of justice and information recovery, and be balanced, proportionate, transparent, fair and equitable.
A significant criticism that victims have raised with us regarding the current approach is the piecemeal nature of how legacy matters are dealt with. I do not think that we wish to perpetuate that through a piecemeal implementation of the legacy institutions. The IRG, as an integral part of the Stormont House agreement, can realistically be implemented only in parallel with the other legacy bodies, and it is clear that progress on the whole package of legacy mechanisms must have cross-community support in Northern Ireland.
I recognise the views of UUP and SDLP Members about new clauses 2 and 3. Indeed, I sympathise with the sentiment behind the measures. On the face of it, reverting to the pre-St. Andrews agreement method of electing the First and Deputy First Ministers might be a welcome change, because that involved an overt demonstration of cross-community support. However,
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to accept the new clauses would be to turn back the clock to before the St Andrews agreement and the subsequent legislation, which is the basis on which devolved government was restored in 2007 and continues to this day. The reality is that such changes would need to be supported on a cross-community basis, but that has not happened. The purpose of the Bill is to implement the Government’s commitments under the “Fresh Start” agreement, and the proposals go beyond that agreement.
I am concerned that if we made changes to the institutions without cross- community support in Northern Ireland, we would risk destabilising the political process in Northern Ireland, damaging the substantial progress that we have made and diverting attention from the challenges and opportunities that Northern Ireland faces. Our priority in supporting devolved politics in Northern Ireland must be to implement the “Fresh Start” and Stormont House agreements, and we are taking another step towards that with this Bill. I recognise that this matter has been considered in the past. The same amendment was tabled in the other place during the passage of the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in early 2014, but the Government could not support it then. I am afraid that, for the same reason, we will not do so today.
I have outlined the reasons why the Government will not support new clauses 1 to 5 and amendment 2, and I urge hon. Members not to press them to a Division.
Stephen Pound: I will speak very briefly. Not for the first time, the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) has made a very pertinent and relevant point. As someone from west London who was close to the Harrods bombing, the Town House bombing and the BBC bombing—I am also aware of what happened in Guildford, Birmingham and Warrington—I would be the first person to agree with his point that there is no territorial definition of victimhood.
I thank the Minister—the hon. and gallant Gentleman —for his comments. Everyone in the House must associate themselves with his words—there can be no equivalence. We hear that loudly from this side of the House and from that side of the House, and I think it is also said across the nation. We must support our armed forces—that is absolutely right—and we must endorse and support the armed forces covenant. I think of the work of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and many other people who have done so much work in that area.
Above all, we must never ever forget, in everything that we do in relation to this subject, that victims must be at the heart of our deliberations. Victims are the people we must consider above all. We have to work with those who are physically and psychologically scarred by their horrors.
I will not speak for long, because I must give other Members a chance to speak, but I want to support and endorse the comments made the Minister—the hon. and, if I may say so, gallant Gentleman.
Danny Kinahan:
I know that we are tight for time, but I really want to push our new clauses. The main reason why we tabled new clause 1 is that legacy issues are bubbling away at the moment. We need to ensure that we have a level playing field, but we do not at the moment. We saw an example of that at the weekend: the ex-Army bomber of Osnabrück has been given his war
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pension, yet the family of Lance Corporal Young of the Household Cavalry, who wanted legal aid, have not got that. There is an imbalance. If we are to go into all these issues in the future, particularly regarding victims—
3.44 pm
Three hours having elapsed since the commencement of proceedings in Committee, the debate was interrupted (Programme Order, 22 February).
The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Clause 10accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83D).
Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Undertaking by Assembly members: transitional provision
Amendments made: 4, page 8, line 10, leave out
“member of the new Assembly”
The Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly remains in office after its dissolution and may chair the first meeting of the new Assembly, even if not a member of it (for example because he or she did not seek re-election). This amendment ensures that, in those circumstances, the outgoing Speaker can determine the “transitional procedure”.
Amendment 5, page 8, line 12, leave out “member” and insert “person”.—(Mr Ben Wallace.)
See the explanatory statement for amendment 4.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill, as amended in the Committee, considered.
3.46 pm
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed to this debate and on Second Reading, as well as Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive who have engaged with me and my officials on the detail of the Bill’s preparation. I extend my thanks to Her Majesty’s Opposition for their support for the Bill, and for agreeing to its faster than usual passage through the House.
As we have heard, the Bill gives effect to key elements of the “Fresh Start” agreement of 2015 and the Stormont House agreement of 2014, which were agreed between the UK Government, parties representing a majority of Unionists and nationalists in the Executive, and the Irish Government. Building on important progress that has already been made on implementing a range of
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aspects of those agreements, the Bill marks an important step towards a more peaceful, prosperous and stable Northern Ireland.
As we have heard, a crucial part of the Bill is to put into effect a treaty to be agreed between the UK and Irish Governments that will establish the independent reporting commission, which we see as a crucial step on the road to the day when paramilitarism in Northern Ireland is entirely something of the past, rather than the present. The commission will promote and report on progress towards ending paramilitary activity connected with Northern Ireland, and all the pain and distress that it has caused in the past, and sadly sometimes continues to cause today.
In Committee we introduced a small amendment to make it clear that the Government will not issue guidance on national security matters in another jurisdiction, and I am grateful to the Committee for adopting that amendment. We considered a set of amendments on the process for appointing members of the independent reporting commission, and for a moment I had a bit of a flashback to the debate on appointments that took place at great length over the 10 weeks of talks that led to the “Fresh Start” agreement. We have listened carefully to what hon. Members have had to say, and we feel that an appointment by the office of the First and Deputy First Minister sensibly reflects the content of the “Fresh Start” agreement. It involves the need to establish consensus between the First and Deputy First Minister, and we encourage them to consult their Executive colleagues on such matters.
I reiterate the Government’s commitment to placing a draft treaty relating to the new commission in the Library of the House as soon as possible, and certainly at the same time or before any regulations are placed before the House regarding the commission. As the Minister stated, any guidance would be published by us before the commission starts its work.
We also had a lively debate on the proposed amendments to the pledge of office for Ministers, and the undertaking for Members of the Legislative Assembly. Both of those reflect commitments in the “Fresh Start” agreement to give unequivocal support to the rule of law and to work collectively to achieve a society free of paramilitarism. It is good that the House has had today the opportunity to reiterate our strong commitment to those goals. These commitments contained in the Bill take Northern Ireland’s political parties further than ever before in their determination to see a complete end to paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland. I believe the provisions represent an important step forward. We had a substantial and informed debate about how MLAs could best be held to account for upholding that new undertaking. We carefully considered the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), but I remain clear that this is a matter not for this House but for the Assembly. It is crucial that we do all we can to ensure that those who make these undertakings are kept to those commitments, but these are matters for the Assembly and I am sure it will take note of the points made today.
It is also important that we recognise that the extension of the appointment period for Ministers is a helpful way to improve the way devolution works. This was, I gather, originally an idea put forward by the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott)
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and it became part of the Stormont House agreement, and I think it will play a part in contributing to the compilation of a more bipartisan programme for government, as there will be more time to conclude that before people take on their ministerial responsibilities.
I am delighted that the House has accepted the financial transparency clause, which I see as an important part of the Bill. A considerable amount of work was needed to ensure that we came up with a clause that not only worked but fully respected the decisions of the Northern Ireland Executive in relation to their own budget. Thanks to the helpful contributions made by the Department of Finance and Personnel, Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Northern Ireland Office, we have a sensible provision that will add transparency and workability to the way the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly compile their budgets. That, too, is an important step forward, and it demonstrates that we are learning the lessons of the experience of recent years.
During the debate in Committee earlier, the Minister reaffirmed the Government’s commitment to the establishment of the bodies designed to address the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past. It is of course a matter of regret that we cannot include them in this legislation, but the reality is that we do not yet have the commitments that we need, on a cross-community basis, and the consensus that we need to be able to bring forward such legislation. We do recognise the importance of establishing these bodies, and I assure the House that we will continue with our efforts to build the consensus that we need to introduce them. We made real progress during the talks which led to the “Fresh Start” agreement, but sadly it was not quite enough to enable us to proceed with this legislation. I will continue my programme of engagement with the political parties and with victims groups to try to bridge those final gaps and thus enable us to get these bodies up and running. We believe that they would deliver considerably better outcomes for victims and survivors, and would represent the best way forward for seeking to address some of the painful legacies of the past and the troubles.
I also take on board the points made in the amendments and in the debate about the definition of a “victim”. As a Government, we sympathise with many of the points that have been made on these matters. We can see real problems with the definition, which includes those injured at their own hands in the course of the commission of criminal acts, but this is properly a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly to decide, not for this House.
In conclusion, the Bill will be a step forward for Northern Ireland. It will help us to deliver those crucial two agreements—“Fresh Start” and Stormont House. It will take us towards a more successful, stable and prosperous Northern Ireland. Most important of all, it will take us a step closer to a Northern Ireland that is, once and for all, free from the pernicious influence of paramilitaries and terrorists of any sort. I ask hon. Members to support the Bill on its Third Reading.
3.55 pm
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson:
We welcome the passage of the Bill. We are a signatory, as it were, to the Stormont agreement. We want to see its implementation. Equally, we want to see the implementation of the Stormont
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House agreement. I echo the sentiments of the Secretary of State, particularly in relation to the bodies that will deal with the legacy issues—the historical investigations unit being prime among them.
Every day, I talk to constituents, victims and survivors in Northern Ireland. There is a deep sense of frustration on their part that the media are full of the whingeing of Sinn Féin about what the state did and what the Government did. The stark statistics speak for themselves: 90% of the killings carried out in what we call the “troubles” were carried by out terrorist organisations. Some 60% of those killings were carried out by republican terrorists. There are 3,000 unsolved murders linked to the troubles in Northern Ireland, yet we have the absurdity of scores of police officers reviewing the killings known as “Blood Sunday” in Londonderry and not a single police officer looking at the equally bloody Sunday in the constituency of the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Tom Elliott), when the Provisional IRA exploded a bomb at the cenotaph and murdered many innocent people. Today, not a single police officer is being deployed to investigate those responsible for that murder.
Looking at that situation, we can understand why ordinary people in Northern Ireland are left deeply frustrated. Ninety per cent. of killings get little or no attention, yet the focus is constantly on what the state did, constantly on what our brave soldiers did and constantly on what our brave police officers did. In many instances, the killings carried out by the state were entirely lawful and legitimate, and carried out against terrorists engaged in acts of violence and terrorism. They were often in self-defence.
We have inquests. We have investigations. We have inquiries. We have hundreds of millions of pounds spent on investigating what the state did. The innocent victims are not only not getting the attention they deserve; they have to accept—they do not accept it; “endure” is perhaps the word—a definition of “victim” that in law equates them with the perpetrators. That is something this House ought to address. There is no consensus in Northern Ireland on the definition of “victim”, and I do not think the Northern Ireland Assembly is likely to agree one in the near future. There was debate on this in the Stormont House discussions and it has been discussed at length in the past. I presented a private Member’s Bill in this House to change the definitions of victim and survivor. I tabled amendments to the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. My party has tabled an amendment to this Bill, as has the Ulster Unionist party. We still do not have a change to the definition of victim and survivor.
The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) is right to say that this matter goes beyond the people who live in Northern Ireland. It includes many who served in Northern Ireland, and the victims of the Birmingham, Manchester, Canary Wharf, Bishopsgate and Guildford bombings. There are many instances of terrorist atrocities carried out by republican terrorists here.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): Does my right hon. Friend believe that the injustice was further compounded earlier this week, when the Legal Aid Agency refused to support the just quest of the families of the Hyde Park bombing for civil support in their pursuit against John Downey?