Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
16 DECEMBER 2003
LORD MCINTOSH
OF HARINGEY,
MR CHRIS
BONE, MS
ELIZABETH HAMBLEY
AND MR
GREIG CHALMERS
Q60 Jeff Ennis: Minister, do you think
there is a danger that the Bill will blur away the current boundaries
between "soft" and "hard" gambling?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I think
it has already happened. I do not think the Bill can do it; I
do not think the Bill can control what offers the gambling industries
are going to make to their customers and their potential customers.
There is a continuum between the harder types of gambling, casino
table games, machines, betting, and softer forms of gambling like
bingo and the National Lottery. That is the nature of the beast.
Q61 Jeff Ennis: If the Bill goes through
in its present form who do you think will be the main beneficiaries,
the harder forms of gambling or the softer forms of gambling?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I think
there are more changes proposed for the harder forms of gambling;
but as to whether that will affect the softer forms of gambling
is a matter that we are now going to be considering jointly with
the Treasury.
Q62 Jeff Ennis: You do not think there
will be a switch from softer to harder?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not want to come down firmly on one side or another about that
yet. I do not think we know enough about it. It is certainly true
that the provisions of the Bill make more changes in particular
for casinos than they do for other forms of gambling.
Q63 Jeff Ennis: Do you think foreign
firms with experience of running large casinos will be the main
beneficiaries of the deregulation of casinos?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not think that is necessarily the case, no. It is not a very large
casino industry. There are only 126 casinos in this country, but
we have people who have experience of running casinos in this
country who are perfectly capable of looking at overseas experience
and taking action accordingly. They are in business and they are
competing with other people in business, and it is not up to me
to make judgments as to who is best equipped to take advantage
of business opportunities.
Q64 Jeff Ennis: The market will decide.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Indeed,
the market will decide. Having visited Las Vegas and Atlantic
City and talked to the major players they are all very keen to
come to this country, but that does not mean that they can in
practice do so or that if they come that they will be successful.
Q65 Tony Wright: In terms of the regeneration
effect, do you think casinos will result in the regeneration of
run-down areas? If so, how big a part has this played in the shaping
of policy?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The
United States is the place where there are perhaps more resort
casinos than anywhere else—we do not have any, although
there are some in South Africa and Australia—but the experience
of resort casinos is that they do indeed. They create jobs themselves;
they create ancillary jobs from people supplying them—caterers,
hotels and so on; and the experience is that, if it is done well,
there can be a very beneficial effect on the local economy.
Q66 Tony Wright: Should demonstrable
regeneration be a requirement for all casinos entitled
to have unlimited numbers of machines?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It
is very difficult to know how to "require" economic
benefits. What we must do is encourage a regime in which economic
benefits are more likely to result from the kind of casinos (since
we are talking about casinos) which are actually going to take
place, which are actually going to be set up. I do not know that
there is a science of identifying economic benefit or local benefit.
In the United States, for example, it is possible to have a state
tax plus a local tax on gambling. We do not have that capacity
in this country; we do not have hypothecated taxes.
Q67 Tony Wright: Have you ruled that
one out?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I have
not and it will not be for me to rule it out, but I could make
a good guess as to what the Treasury would say at any suggestion
on hypothecated taxes. I think the likelihood is that local communities
are going to benefit, first of all, from the direct and indirect
employment and economic activity changes; and, secondly; they
may well wish to negotiate section 106 agreements to get planning
gain from anything that is proposed.
Q68 Tony Wright: You did mention earlier
the policy should be in the remit of the Regional Development
Agencies. Would the Government be giving them direction in terms
of appointment towards regional areas?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: This
is a regional matter. We think the regions should take a lead
in this.
Q69 Mr Meale: There has been a lot of
thought, indeed this Committee has been plied with the possibility
of resorts being based in run-down seaside areas. I represent
a constituency in the middle of England, 75 miles from either
coastline, but if one draws a line from Liverpool to London 75%
of the England population resides 25 miles either side of that
line. I am just worried that if the direction is to run-down coastal
areas will that remove the possibility of supplying the service
or entertainment to a vast majority of people who live in England?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I think
this is a matter for the market. I think the people who are now
considering investment and putting a toe in the water are already
considering that. Some of them are considering seaside areas and
an awful lot of them are considering inland areas and city centres.
I do think it is up to them to decide what is going to be viable.
Q70 Mr Meale: So there will be no direction?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Not
particularly, no. Regional Development Agencies, Regional Planning
Bodies, might well take a view about it, but I do not think it
is for the Government to take that view.
Q71 Mr Meale: In relation to the part
where you mentioned the casino operating licence between the soft
and the hard areas, I do not know whether you are aware but possibly
the best voluntary code which exists in all the gambling industries
is run by the bingo industry where 11 per cent of its profits
go into a fund, a charity, which deals with customer care and
gambling problems and debt problems. Would you consider indicating
in the terms and conditions of any licence which is given that
if any operator, casino operator or otherwise, takes on this larger
responsibility in the casino operated licence, which allows them
to conduct bingo or whatever, that they will also take into account
whether they are practising this in the voluntary code?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I think
it is better if the relationship between the gambling industries
and the charitable purposes you are talking about are sorted out
by the gambling industries themselves. I do not think the Government
should intervene in the detail of any contract. All I have said
is as a back-up that if it does not work we will take powers—but
they would be general powers. I have not heard of any suggestion
that they should be associated with planning permission or licences.
Q72 Mr Meale: The reason I ask is because
it is widely recognised by everybody in the industry that the
voluntary code in bingo operates very successfully. With this
new catch-all licence—it might be that it operates the same
and we do not want to participate in the new code although we
do want to participate in bingo, higher prizes than before—now
that would be a catastrophe because you have large amounts of
new players and old players going to the new regime but not having
the same kind of protection. You might think about putting it
into the guidelines.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I hear
what you say. Can I think about that and write to the Committee.
Q73 Mr Page: Minister, if it is accepted
that major casinos are going to be a main source of money for
regeneration, will those major casinos not want some form of protection,
otherwise they will not put those large sums of regeneration money
in if they immediately think that, having put these large sums
in, wham a new competitor is put down the road which may not have
the same requirements placed upon them?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: There
are two kinds of investors, one is the existing British casino
investor and they have not made that suggestion to me, and the
other is the American investor, South African or Australian. When
I put, in rather more tentative terms, exactly that question to
some of the big boys in the American casino industry they said,
"Nonsense, we believe in free markets".
Q74 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: On our
outing to Great Yarmouth and Blackpool we were told in both resorts
that if the markets were allowed to develop, in the case of Great
Yarmouth, a large resort casino-type operation in Norwich or,
in the case of Blackpool, in Manchester and/or Liverpool then
the chances of there being casino-based regeneration taking place
in a seaside resort were pretty remote. You are relaxed about
the fact that the hoped-for regeneration in the seaside resorts
might not happen if you allow the market to open their large casinos
in the large cities in the region?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That
is why I was saying this should be a matter for a regional strategic
decision. I think they know better than central government about
whether this is likely to happen.
Q75 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: You do
not think that seaside regeneration is a matter for national policy
and that you should be taking a decision?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: There
are forms of seaside regeneration which are matters for national
policy and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is very concerned
with those; but as far as gambling is concerned, we think that
these are matters for judgments which are better made on a decentralised
basis by region.
Q76 Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: The
implication is that the regional planning body will have a right
to nominate one or more resort casinos within their region. Is
that correct, or are they potentially subject to national guidance?
I heard your answer about you feeling that the Government should
not be involved, but is that also ODPM's view?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: You
can ask them. It is not that they will be able to nominate casinos,
the idea is that they will nominate preferred areas where they
would wish casinos to bid to be involved. As to national guidance,
it is not our intention to issue national guidance. There may,
of course, be planning issues where the Secretary of State or,
in this case, the Deputy Prime Minister may have to call in a
planning application, but that is under planning laws. I would
rather you asked the ODPM about that.
Q77 Dr Pugh: Could we just tease out
the respective roles of the planning bodies and the Regional Development
Agencies. I think we have a broad understanding of what the regional
planning body might do, but there is enormous responsibility falling
on the RDAs, which is essentially a bureaucratic body, not a representational
body in the regions. Do they have a fairly onerous task of making
decisions which have enormous economic implications right across
the region?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It
is an onerous task. I do not think that we have fully defined
the task yet—I think it is my job to ensure we do over the
next few months keep you in touch.
Q78 Dr Pugh: Since they are not directly
accountable either to local government or to a regional assembly
in the ordinary kind of way, you seem to think they are not directly
accountable currently to you, and there is an enormous strategic
decision to be made by very few players within a institution,
a bureaucratic quango, in one area.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Of
course, we are in a period of transition in which Government hopes
that a number of regions will move towards elected regional government.
Anything we are putting forward now has got to last for a number
of years. I do not think we can judge purely on the present situation.
Clearly, there will have to be detailed public consultation undertaken
by any regional planning body about the policy it intends to adopt.
Q79 Dr Pugh: Accountability is an issue,
particularly as RDA money may be used to facilitate the process?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I recognise
that accountability is an issue. It is an issue that I intend
to address with ODPM. At the end of that process you may wish
to get better information from them than you are able to get from
me.
Chairman: It is part of your earlier
answer about application.
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