Examination of Witnesses (Questions 660
- 664)
TUESDAY 20 JANUARY 2004
MR WARWICK
BARTLETT, MR
CHRISTOPHER BELL,
MR TOM
KELLY, MR
TOM CLARKE
AND MR
JOHN STEVENSON
Q660 Mr Wright: Are your members
content with the terms of agreement reached with the Gaming Board
over the question of fixed betting terminals, and do you think
they will comply with the agreement?
Mr Kelly: My members understand
the reasons for the FOBTs code. They support it. I am not known
for my optimism generally, but I am confident that the industry
will comply. I heard what Peter Dean said to this Committee early
in its life about compliance and I generally agree with what he
said. I am sure we will get as near 100 per cent compliance as
makes no difference and where there is the odd blip, I am equally
confident we will deal with it within the prescribed period that
our agreement which the Gaming Board allows.
Q661 Mr Wright: Going back to social
responsibility, these FOBTs could become addictive. Just over
three per cent of GamCare's first-time callers in 2003 were from
people who will stand behind these new machines. Are there any
specific measures that you think could be taken to try to reduce
that even further?
Mr Kelly: Yes, there are and I
think many of them lie within the Code of Practice that we have
agreed with the DCMS. That code reduces the number of machines
to a maximum of four per betting shop and it reduces the payout
to (500. Previously it was unlimited, it could be anything. It
reduces the individual bet to (15. Other terms of the code include
the appointment of a Compliance Committee which will meet for
the first time early next month, it includes putting GamCare information
both on the exterior of the machine and inside, and there are
a whole raft of obligations on the bookmakers under this code
to minimise problem gambling. I think the code will do a lot to
help in that area. There is one other comment I would like to
make. These machines began life as Fixed Odds Betting Terminals,
they are betting machines, but under the proposals of the draft
Bill they will be re-designated as gaming machines. If that intention
is fulfilled they will become available in places other than premises
licensed specifically for betting and we believe that is a mistake.
DCMS is extremely concerned about the proliferation of machines
in public places. The plan is to call them "B plus"
machines. If "B plus" machines were to be designated
as betting terminals they would become available only in betting
shops and in casinos. That would be a great contribution towards
the control of proliferation and we strongly recommend to this
Committee that that is what is done.
Q662 Viscount Falkland: I understand
absolutely what you are saying, but in the best possible world
for bookmakers, where they were making good profits and perhaps
the betting exchanges did not exist, would it not be a better
scenario socially if these Fixed Odds Betting Terminals were not
in betting shops at all? You are now getting to a situation where
it has been reported to us—and it concerns me as I have
a particular interest in racing—that people are now going
into racing shops exclusively to play the machines and the television
sets and the racing activity is purely wallpaper as far as they
are concerned, it is just another destination for those who become
addicted to machines. What is your view about that?
Mr Bell: Taking your last point
about people now going in purely to play on betting terminals,
based on research that we have done, an extensive survey, it is
quite clear that they are existing customers. So it is making
the betting shops a more attractive place to be and giving them
products that they like which I would contend is a great help
to racing because it is ensuring the traffic stays in the shop
and it is up to racing to make sure they put a good product on.
In terms of whether they should be there, I think any level of
problem gambling is unacceptable, but we do live in the real world
and there will always be some. There is a statistic which shows
that 3.3 per cent of problem gambling comes through the Fixed
Odds Betting Terminals. However, to put it in context, 46 per
cent of first time callers come from people in arcades, pubs and
clubs using the machines and 7.6 per cent of first time callers
are from casinos. We are very mindful to run these properly and
to make sure they contribute to the overall proposition of the
betting shop and betting customer, which is the case and that
is what the research proves which I am very pleased about.
Q663 Lord Donoghue of Ashton: I would
like to ask you about the licensing system. Will the application
of the new regulatory regime increase your transaction costs?
Mr Kelly: We have seen the estimates
of the costs of running the Commission. They are much greater
than the costs of running the Gaming Board as it is now. The only
major additional responsibility that the Gaming Board is going
to take on is the regulation of the betting industry. The others
are already there with the Gaming Board. We will come under the
Commission. We are by far the largest sector in gambling. It seems
to us almost inevitable that our costs will rise considerably
in order to meet the expenses of the new regulatory body. That
is one issue on its own, an increase in cost, but when you get
back to the point that I mentioned at the beginning of this session
that most of my members see nothing in the Bill for them and many
of them regard it as at a distinct negative, that seems to us
to be quite a particular irony.
Q664 Chairman: Did Mr Stevenson or
Mr Clarke want to add anything?
Mr Clarke: Just briefly. It should
not affect the NJPC itself, but we are very concerned that any
extra costs for on-course bookmakers that would have to be passed
on to the consumer would result in margins shrinking even more.
Chairman: I wish we had more time to
look into some of the issues that Mr Stevenson mentioned. I want
to read very carefully the transcript of what you said about the
use of exchanges by your members. This is not the end of our inquiry
by any means. We will have the opportunity to refer to these matters
again and an ABB representative is coming on Thursday and we will
look at interactive gambling and exchanges. If there are issues
that you still wish to draw to our attention as the inquiry progresses,
we would be very grateful if you would provide them to us and
we may write to you if we have any questions. In the meantime
can I thank all of you for coming this morning, for your time
and for answering our questions so clearly. Thank you.
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