Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1500
- 1519)
TUESDAY 24 FEBRUARY 2004
MR NICK
BUNN, MR
TONY KELLY
AND MR
PETER MATTHEWS
Q1500 Viscount Falkland: As you know,
the Committee has already made a visit to Australia and maybe
there will be a supplementary in a moment about that, and we are
going to France at the end of this week and we will be asking
the same kind of questions, so maybe some of the responses we
get will be useful to you in due course. There is obviously a
need here for improvement.
Mr Bunn: Yes.
Q1501 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Mr
Matthews, is there any training given for staff in Australia to
deal with this?
Mr Matthews: Yes, there is.
Q1502 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Can
you expand on that?
Mr Matthews: Well, it is a bit
of a toothless tiger really because, as Nick has just said, what
do you do if you upset the customer by saying, "I think you've
got a problem"? We have two policies. We have a responsible
serving of alcohol and we have a responsible serving of gaming
and it is quite simple really, or alcohol is very simple in that
if you are intoxicated, you do not get served and you get rejected,
but it is a little bit different with gaming. I do not know if
you are aware of this document here, but it is highlighted in
there.[4]
It is a huge problem and there is no reason to suppose this is
any different from your country.
Q1503 Chairman: On training generally,
I think Baroness Golding and I were impressed by the training
college which the people who run the Crown Casino in Melbourne
operate and they do, it seemed to us, provide quite detailed training
on this issue of problem gambling as much for the people who are
playing the machines as the people who are gambling on the tables.
Do you have a view on that?
Mr Matthews: I work at a casino
cash desk and we probably see problem gambling more than any other
employee by the sheer fact of bounced cheques and bad debts. We
do not allow credit in casinos in Tasmania, but we do allow people
to cash cheques, so we see people with cheques, and when the little
old lady who bounces the cheque gets distressed, our chief cashier
will talk to her and work out a way for her to repay the debts
and a self-exclusion concept.
Q1504 Lord Wade of Chorlton: One
of the main impacts of the Bill, as we have already discussed,
is the creation of these much larger casinos or resort casinos.
What challenges do you reckon this will pose for casino workers
who are looking in terms of identifying problem gamblers? You
have already expressed some of the difficulties of the operator
even knowing anything about it, but do you see other problems
coming from this or are there other methods of solution that might
lead to individuals being responsible for dealing with problem
gamblers rather than the person handling the machine?
Mr Bunn: Very much so. We feel
that the large casinos should have a counsellor on the premises
at all times. We think that would be helpful in the legislation.
These new casinos will be machine-based, there is no doubt about
that, and the machines, in our view, will cause more problem gambling
than any other form of gambling. The problem with the larger casino
is that it is actually spotting the problem gambler. If you have
got banks, as in Peter's casino, of 400 machines, it is very unlikely
that you are going to be able to spot somebody who is a problem
gambler unless they bring attention to themselves. One of the
reasons people play machines is to remain nameless and faceless
and that is part of the reason that they do use machines.
Q1505 Lord Wade of Chorlton: Have
you had any experience of the counselling system, how a person
might be able to avail themselves of it? Have you had any experience
where they are in operation and how they operate, as it were?
Mr Bunn: Only from friends in
Australia, but not personal experience.
Q1506 Lord Wade of Chorlton: So there
are no casinos in the UK that are using counsellors?
Mr Bunn: No.
Q1507 Chairman: Mr Matthews, do you
want to comment on that?
Mr Matthews: As I said before,
it comes to our knowledge obviously when people get into debt,
but with regard to the electronic gaming slot machines, we have
had instances where somebody has collapsed on the floor and people
are leaning over the body to put a coin in. We actually had a
machine catch alight and they were leaning away from the flames,
but still putting money in and that is no exaggeration.
Q1508 Mr Meale: I am interested in
the use of credit cards. I noticed in your submission you mentioned
that more often than not credit cards are used by those who are
least able to afford to gamble. Bearing in mind you have got credit
card cheques, and you have got no casino checks to get into casinos,
and you have got limits on credit cards, can you elaborate on
why you should say that in your report?
Mr Bunn: At the moment there is
the global cash access scheme which is, in our view, a loophole
that the casino operators have exploited. We are finding now that
people are using five or six credit cards. They can only use up
to £1,000 per credit card and they are obviously chasing
losses and there must be a problem-gambling situation there somewhere.
We think that credit cards should not be allowed in casinos, that
they have got no place in casinos.
Q1509 Mr Meale: If there is a series
of cheques, and some of these credit cards have £100 limits
on them and so forth, I would have thought that with credit cards
it is actually much easier to combat problem gambling than actually
without the use of credit cards because there are mechanisms through
technology where you can actually easily identify whether people
are using more than one card.
Mr Bunn: We think it would be
helpful if there was an opt-in clause on credit cards to play
in gambling casinos or betting, so people are well aware that
they can use it rather than on the spur of the moment, they make
a conscious decision that they want to use credit cards, but the
problem is that people are sometimes out of control and they are
using credit cards and before you know it, they have run up huge
debts.
Q1510 Mr Meale: So you think that
credit cards are a serious problem in relation to problem gambling?
Mr Bunn: Yes.
Q1511 Mr Meale: Sometimes of course
people who use credit cards use them fraudulently or illegally
or may run up large amounts which mean that the casino does not
get their money. Is there any clawback from your members who work
a table or whatever for any losses incurred through, say, fraud
which they did not check?
Mr Bunn: Because of the way the
system works at the moment, the banks are guaranteeing the money
and that is why the casino operators like it, so if there is a
problem, it is not down to the casino operators. As far as the
customer is concerned, the money is coming from the casino, but
the banks actually charge 4.5 per cent just for the transaction,
so the banks are making £45 on a £1,000 transaction,
so it is quite feasible for somebody to run up in charges £200-300
a day.
Q1512 Mr Meale: So there is no system
of clawback on any of your members?
Mr Bunn: No.
Q1513 Chairman: Do you have bounced
cheque problems, such as Mr Matthews has experienced?
Mr Bunn: Yes, constantly. That
is a problem because obviously there is a credit facility that
people can have, but one credit facility is sometimes used in
three or four casinos, so people regularly do bounce cheques and
then once they pay it, they are reinstated, but there is no actual
problem-gambling intervention and we think there probably should
be.
Q1514 Viscount Falkland: Can I go
back to Mr Bunn's remark which I thought was interesting when
you said that the use of machines was largely a nameless and faceless
activity done by solitary players. Would you not say that if we
had the benefit of having a Budd Report or a White Paper, which
illustrated the Government's intention to increase what is a jolly
and sociable activity, it would not have included illustrations
of people doing what you describe? I agree with you, that I think
that is one of the main reasons why people do it, so would you
say personally that there is some kind of conflict between the
Government's view of their gambling proposals and the reality
of what actually is likely to happen?
Mr Bunn: Very much so. We do not
think that hard gambling is a leisure pursuit and we caution this
Committee on that.
Viscount Falkland: Thank you very much.
I entirely agree with you.
Q1515 Mr Meale: Just on that answer
you gave earlier about people who bounce cheques and go over the
limit on their credit card, is there a mechanism for identifying
these people and actually talking to them perhaps about problem
gambling before you allow them more credit, or do you just clear
the debt and then allow them to gamble again? If that is the case,
do you not think it might be a good idea to impose a system where
they have got to approach someone to talk about the need to talk
about counselling about gambling?
Mr Bunn: Yes, I agree with that.
I think there should be some sort of mechanism if they bounce
cheques. The problem is that in my sector of the market, we are
dealing with very important people, so they might be problem gamblers,
but they are still very important people.
Q1516 Mr Meale: So there is no mechanism
now where if they bounce a cheque or go over credit, you say,
"We want to talk to you about problem gambling"?
Mr Bunn: None at all.
Q1517 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I
would like to ask you about the arrangements for mandatory breaks
in play, particularly the idea of restrictions on alcohol and
having a switch-off period for the machines. Can you expand a
little and say why you think they are a good idea and why they
might work?
Mr Bunn: We understand there are
going to be practical difficulties with this, but we just think
it is a good idea to have cool-off periods for people just to
give them ten minutes of reality. The one thing you have not mentioned
is the smoking ban and we think that would be very, very important
because a lot of gamblers do smoke and actually to go away from
the tables, have a cigarette and come back might allow them reflection
on what they are actually doing. A lot of people just get carried
away and then at the end of the night when they realise how much
they have lost, then reality hits home. The other point I would
make on that is that the last extension of hours from 4 am to
6 am, if anything targeted problem gambling it is that extension
because we find that the potential for problem gamblers at that
time of the night is denser than at any other time.
Q1518 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: Right
at the end of the evening?
Mr Bunn: Yes, when they are chasing
their losses. If you are playing at five in the morning, unless
you are a shift worker or waiting for an aeroplane or something,
really and truly all you are doing is chasing your losses.
Q1519 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: You
would like the Bill to specify what the opening hours should be?
Mr Bunn: Yes, definitely, being
2 pm to 4 am.
4 Note by Witness: Australian Productivity Commission's
report Gambling Inquiry "3 Years On". Back
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