Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1520
- 1531)
TUESDAY 24 FEBRUARY 2004
MR NICK
BUNN, MR
TONY KELLY
AND MR
PETER MATTHEWS
Q1520 Mr Page: Could I just take
you back to problem gambling because obviously the Committee is
concerned about this, but it is really difficult to get a handle
on it. For example, in 2001 there was a study saying that there
were only 0.8 per cent, one of the lowest in the world, but the
recent report based on Australia and the United States estimated
that if this Bill goes through, we could end up with maybe one
million problem gamblers. Now, in your submissions to the Committee,
you say that you believe problem gambling has been seriously underestimated.
As I say, we would like to try to get a handle on it, so what
was that statement based on?
Mr Bunn: It was based on members'
recollections and the systems that we watch every day, but it
was also based on the Australian report as well. I think one of
the reasons we have got the lowest problem gambling percentage
in the world is because of the Gaming Board and because of the
regulations we have in place most definitely. Obviously there
is going to be an escalation, everybody realises that, but it
is a question of how much and where do you start from. The problem
we have is the lack of research.
Q1521 Mr Page: If I can just follow
that up, and maybe Mr Matthews can help with the Australian experience,
we will not be having the gambling facilities in tiny shops and
bars and things like that in this country, but we will be having
limits on sizes, so do you feel that the problem that we may be
facing in fact will not be as great as that faced in Australia?
Mr Matthews: I would refer to
this Productivity Commission's inquiry where further down the
report, it says that the problem is much bigger than they anticipated,
and I think they said 1 to 2 per cent, and it is about 1.6, but
it is more likely to be 15 per cent, so it is a huge problem in
Australia. There is no reason to suppose it will not be a huge
problem here. Actually a lot of it is hypothesis, is it not, because
we do not have adequate research into it.
Q1522 Mr Page: I appreciate that,
but this Committee obviously, being concerned with problem gambling,
may wish to make some recommendations regarding resources towards
problem gambling. With 15 per cent, we are talking about nine
million people in this country having problem gambling and that
is incredible. That cannot be the case.
Mr Bunn: There has been a slight
misunderstanding here. The 15 per cent is 15 per cent of gamblers
could be problem gamblers. There has been no increase in gamblers,
but it was that that 15 per cent will grow and that is the problem.
Can I just come on to one other point which you made about the
proliferation of small casinos. What you have actually got at
the moment are betting shops offering roulette, they are called
FOBTs, but I call them roulette and that is what they are. That
is proliferation. They are small casinos in betting shops and
that is what you should be directing your attention to.
Q1523 Chairman: But the access is
different, is it not? I take your point entirely that if there
are only four machines, a limited number in each betting shop,
that strikes us as rather different from the situation that Baroness
Golding, myself and Lord Faulkner on a previous visit in Australia
have seen where there can be literally hundreds of machines on
the street corner where people live. Is that what has given rise
to the problem gambling in Australia?
Mr Matthews: Yes.
Mr Bunn: It is relatively easy
to get a betting office licence, relatively easy. They do not
have to jump through the hoops that a casino has to jump through
and they also do not have the taxation burdens that casinos have.
Therefore, we have concerns about these roulette machines in betting
offices.
Q1524 Chairman: So are you suggesting,
and this is a very important point if you are, that whereas there
is a concern that the number of betting shops may actually reduce
as a result of the changes which are being proposed, because there
will no longer be the need to produce evidence of the demand for
a betting shop as there is now, if that is swept away you could
see people opening up betting shops, and the offering of the fact
that you can have a bet on a horse race or on a dog race is not
really the real reason for having it, but it is so that you can
have four FOBT machines in your shop?
Mr Bunn: I can envisage betting
shops without being able to place a bet, but just being able to
go on the machines. I can honestly see that because they are hugely
popular.
Chairman: That is an interesting thought.
Q1525 Baroness Golding: I think perhaps
your idea of the extension of betting shops is not one which we
have ever heard before, so I find it interesting that in the licensing
of the betting shops, they are still going to have to apply for
a licence. You have to be a fit and proper person, you have to
be properly registered and to say that you will just be able to
open a shop and have hardly any betting going on there, but just
four FOBT machines, I do not see how you can arrive at that conclusion.
Mr Bunn: I just feel that the
rewards are very great and the people that are involved in betting
shops, some of these companies are very, very clever and I do
not think they will be able to resist, in all truth.
Q1526 Chairman: Well, it is food
for thought.
Mr Kelly: Betting shops should
remain betting shops and there is no way that an FOBT is betting.
It is clearly gaming, as we know it, and it should be defined
as such and, therefore, should remain in casinos. Betting should
be where it was designed to be which is betting shops.
Q1527 Baroness Golding: What do you
say about Internet betting then?
Mr Kelly: That is another issue
again and there are huge problems there as well.
Q1528 Chairman: The other side of
the coin to your comment is that then presumably you would be
opposed to having betting shops in casinos because what is the
difference?
Mr Kelly: Access. A betting shop
is in a high street where people, families, can go from nine in
the morning, so there are none of the restrictions that you have
on a casino. You have got one person probably in the shop at nine
in the morning who probably will not be qualified or certified,
so basically you have an unsupervised, early-morning casino in
your local high street. That cannot be right and it cannot be
good for social responsibility.
Q1529 Chairman: Okay, that is very
clear. Is there anything else, gentlemen, that you would like
to say to us because we have asked all the questions we want to
ask, but if there are any other comments that you want to make,
we would be delighted to hear them?
Mr Matthews: Just to ask was it
just the Crown Casino you visited?
Q1530 Chairman: Baroness Golding,
myself and the Clerk went to the Crown Casino in Melbourne, there
being only one casino in Victoria, and we went to the Star City
in Sydney again where there is only one casino. We had some observations,
I think, from our visit which may influence what we do here.
Mr Bunn: There is only one last
point I would like to make, Mr Chairman. I would like to write
to you on FOBTs because there is a code of practice and we are
doing some research at the moment and I think you will find that
the findings will be quite interesting.
Q1531 Mr Meale: Could you also write
to us about the companies who advertise for staff overseas?
Mr Bunn: Yes, certainly. We will
send you the adverts.[5]
Chairman: That would be very helpful.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming and for the answers
you have given us.
5 See DGB 165. Back
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