Joint Committee on the Draft Gambling Bill Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1520 - 1531)

TUESDAY 24 FEBRUARY 2004

MR NICK BUNN, MR TONY KELLY AND MR PETER MATTHEWS

  Q1520  Mr Page: Could I just take you back to problem gambling because obviously the Committee is concerned about this, but it is really difficult to get a handle on it. For example, in 2001 there was a study saying that there were only 0.8 per cent, one of the lowest in the world, but the recent report based on Australia and the United States estimated that if this Bill goes through, we could end up with maybe one million problem gamblers. Now, in your submissions to the Committee, you say that you believe problem gambling has been seriously underestimated. As I say, we would like to try to get a handle on it, so what was that statement based on?

  Mr Bunn: It was based on members' recollections and the systems that we watch every day, but it was also based on the Australian report as well. I think one of the reasons we have got the lowest problem gambling percentage in the world is because of the Gaming Board and because of the regulations we have in place most definitely. Obviously there is going to be an escalation, everybody realises that, but it is a question of how much and where do you start from. The problem we have is the lack of research.

  Q1521  Mr Page: If I can just follow that up, and maybe Mr Matthews can help with the Australian experience, we will not be having the gambling facilities in tiny shops and bars and things like that in this country, but we will be having limits on sizes, so do you feel that the problem that we may be facing in fact will not be as great as that faced in Australia?

  Mr Matthews: I would refer to this Productivity Commission's inquiry where further down the report, it says that the problem is much bigger than they anticipated, and I think they said 1 to 2 per cent, and it is about 1.6, but it is more likely to be 15 per cent, so it is a huge problem in Australia. There is no reason to suppose it will not be a huge problem here. Actually a lot of it is hypothesis, is it not, because we do not have adequate research into it.

  Q1522  Mr Page: I appreciate that, but this Committee obviously, being concerned with problem gambling, may wish to make some recommendations regarding resources towards problem gambling. With 15 per cent, we are talking about nine million people in this country having problem gambling and that is incredible. That cannot be the case.

  Mr Bunn: There has been a slight misunderstanding here. The 15 per cent is 15 per cent of gamblers could be problem gamblers. There has been no increase in gamblers, but it was that that 15 per cent will grow and that is the problem. Can I just come on to one other point which you made about the proliferation of small casinos. What you have actually got at the moment are betting shops offering roulette, they are called FOBTs, but I call them roulette and that is what they are. That is proliferation. They are small casinos in betting shops and that is what you should be directing your attention to.

  Q1523  Chairman: But the access is different, is it not? I take your point entirely that if there are only four machines, a limited number in each betting shop, that strikes us as rather different from the situation that Baroness Golding, myself and Lord Faulkner on a previous visit in Australia have seen where there can be literally hundreds of machines on the street corner where people live. Is that what has given rise to the problem gambling in Australia?

  Mr Matthews: Yes.

  Mr Bunn: It is relatively easy to get a betting office licence, relatively easy. They do not have to jump through the hoops that a casino has to jump through and they also do not have the taxation burdens that casinos have. Therefore, we have concerns about these roulette machines in betting offices.

  Q1524  Chairman: So are you suggesting, and this is a very important point if you are, that whereas there is a concern that the number of betting shops may actually reduce as a result of the changes which are being proposed, because there will no longer be the need to produce evidence of the demand for a betting shop as there is now, if that is swept away you could see people opening up betting shops, and the offering of the fact that you can have a bet on a horse race or on a dog race is not really the real reason for having it, but it is so that you can have four FOBT machines in your shop?

  Mr Bunn: I can envisage betting shops without being able to place a bet, but just being able to go on the machines. I can honestly see that because they are hugely popular.

  Chairman: That is an interesting thought.

  Q1525  Baroness Golding: I think perhaps your idea of the extension of betting shops is not one which we have ever heard before, so I find it interesting that in the licensing of the betting shops, they are still going to have to apply for a licence. You have to be a fit and proper person, you have to be properly registered and to say that you will just be able to open a shop and have hardly any betting going on there, but just four FOBT machines, I do not see how you can arrive at that conclusion.

  Mr Bunn: I just feel that the rewards are very great and the people that are involved in betting shops, some of these companies are very, very clever and I do not think they will be able to resist, in all truth.

  Q1526  Chairman: Well, it is food for thought.

  Mr Kelly: Betting shops should remain betting shops and there is no way that an FOBT is betting. It is clearly gaming, as we know it, and it should be defined as such and, therefore, should remain in casinos. Betting should be where it was designed to be which is betting shops.

  Q1527  Baroness Golding: What do you say about Internet betting then?

  Mr Kelly: That is another issue again and there are huge problems there as well.

  Q1528  Chairman: The other side of the coin to your comment is that then presumably you would be opposed to having betting shops in casinos because what is the difference?

  Mr Kelly: Access. A betting shop is in a high street where people, families, can go from nine in the morning, so there are none of the restrictions that you have on a casino. You have got one person probably in the shop at nine in the morning who probably will not be qualified or certified, so basically you have an unsupervised, early-morning casino in your local high street. That cannot be right and it cannot be good for social responsibility.

  Q1529  Chairman: Okay, that is very clear. Is there anything else, gentlemen, that you would like to say to us because we have asked all the questions we want to ask, but if there are any other comments that you want to make, we would be delighted to hear them?

  Mr Matthews: Just to ask was it just the Crown Casino you visited?

  Q1530  Chairman: Baroness Golding, myself and the Clerk went to the Crown Casino in Melbourne, there being only one casino in Victoria, and we went to the Star City in Sydney again where there is only one casino. We had some observations, I think, from our visit which may influence what we do here.

  Mr Bunn: There is only one last point I would like to make, Mr Chairman. I would like to write to you on FOBTs because there is a code of practice and we are doing some research at the moment and I think you will find that the findings will be quite interesting.

  Q1531  Mr Meale: Could you also write to us about the companies who advertise for staff overseas?

  Mr Bunn: Yes, certainly. We will send you the adverts.[5]

  Chairman: That would be very helpful. Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming and for the answers you have given us.





5   See DGB 165. Back


 
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