Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1767
- 1779)
TUESDAY 2 MARCH 2004
YVETTE COOPER
MP, MRS VICTORIA
THOMSON AND
MR ELLIOT
GRANT
Q1767 Chairman: Good morning. May I,
first of all, welcome Yvette Cooper and Victoria Thomson from
the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. We are extremely grateful
to you for finding the time and opportunity to come because, as
you will discover from the questions we need to ask you (of which
we have given you some advance notice), we feel that your role
in all of this is extremely important in planning terms. Could
I ask everyone to note that Elliot Grant is here from the Department
for Culture, Media and Sport, should we need to refer any matters
to him. Could you also note a transcript of the meeting will be
produced and placed on the internet within about a week. A full
declaration of interests of members of the Committee was made
at the beginning of the first meeting, and that information is
also available. Firstly, could I ask you, Minister, what has the
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister's role been in preparing the
policy relating to this draft Bill?
Yvette Cooper: Obviously the ODPM's
interest is around planning issues, as you know. The role of the
ODPM has obviously been in preparing the joint statement that
you have seen from Keith Hill and Andrew McIntosh, and also further
discussions are underway around some of those planning issues.
We have also been participating in discussions with the casino
industry too. May I take this opportunity, Chairman, to put on
record as well that probably, like many Members of the House,
I suspect I may well end up having a direct constituency interest
in the Bill too, as some of the original plans 10 years ago for
the development of the Glasshoughton pit site, which is in Castleford,
included not just a ski slope but also casinos and all kinds of
things on that site. Whilst I think the plans are a bit out-of-date
people still talk with great enthusiasm about the possibility
of a Cas Vegas.
Q1768 Chairman: We could give you a list
of places up and down the country of England alone where there
have been numerous press reports about the potential for a Las
Vegas; the most recent being slightly in my constituency, in the
southern end of the Scarborough borough, where Scarborough is
to be the Las Vegas of Yorkshire. I am sorry, your pit villages
are out of date. Your answer is extremely helpful. You will see
that we will come on to some of those points a little later. Could
I ask you one other thing: yesterday, when the Minister and the
Secretary of State from the DCMS appeared before the Committee,
the establishment of a Premises Licensing Working Group was mentioned.
Does that involve ministers or officials from your Department?
Yvette Cooper: Yes.
Q1769 Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: Would
it be appropriate to ask whether it involves ministers or
officials?
Mrs Thomson: My understanding
is that it is officials primarily at the moment, but I am sure
ministerial involvement will be appropriate at some point.
Q1770 Chairman: When was it established?
Mrs Thomson: That I cannot answer,
I am afraid.
Q1771 Chairman: What comes across to
us—and I think it is as well to get this out now, and it
will I am sure be very pervasive throughout this whole session—is
the sense that other government departments that have a serious
input into what this Bill proposes to do have come quite late
into the argument. The feeling we have is that the Department
of Culture, Media and Sport published a White Paper which deals
with a regulatory framework in terms of what the law says you
can and cannot do about, for example, the siting of casinos; but
what has become more and more clear and obvious is that the issue
of planning is at the very heart of that policy decision, and
that is why we have asked you to come today.
Yvette Cooper: I think that is
probably to overstate the problem. The truth is that the planning
system, for a long time, has dealt with big developments. It has
dealt with: big developments; small developments of all different
kinds; and it has also dealt with industries where there are other
forms of regulation, including alcohol, light entertainment and
things like that. I think the planning system actually has always
dealt with these sorts of issues. What we have tried to do is
actually make explicit the way in which the planning system would
need to deal with these kinds of issues around casinos and so
on; but actually it is exactly the same kinds of issues that the
planning system would deal with all the time. A big leisure development,
for example, might raise many of the same kinds of questions.
I do not think there are any substantially new principles that
change the way the planning system operates in this regard. Actually
there has been very appropriate working between DCMS and the ODPM
on the way in which the locations should be decided, and the way
in which the planning system should respond. These are very much
the kinds of issues that the planning system would deal with as
a matter of course.
Q1772 Chairman: I wonder whether Mr Grant
could help with the answer to my question in terms of when this
started, and when we expect it would conclude?
Mr Grant: It started about 18
months ago, if not longer. I can confirm that officials from the
ODPM, as well as other departments and other interested bodies,
including local government associations, have been represented
on that body.
Q1773 Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: If
it has been going for 18 months, is it the case that it has not
been concluded because there are aspects of the regulatory part
of this Bill which affect the conclusions?
Mr Grant: It would certainly need
to continue to oversee the arrangements for ensuring that local
authorities were able to take on their new responsibilities and
to plan accordingly.
Q1774 Chairman: The Secretary of State
yesterday made the point that once an agreement had been reached
with ODPM on these matters she would inform the Committee. Could
I leave on the record the thought we have already had in our private
discussions this morning, once that decision has been clarified,
whether or not this Committee should then again examine both ministers
from ODPM and DCMS on the conclusions that they reached; because
they will have far-reaching ramifications for the development
of casinos in the United Kingdom?
Yvette Cooper: Obviously we would
be happy to give whatever evidence that you need when you need
it. The specific issue we are still working on which I think does
need some further work is the issue about which kinds of casinos
should be considered at the regional level, and which kinds of
casinos should be considered at the local level. There are very
specific and tangible questions, and there are a whole series
of considerations that we still need to take into account and
reach agreement on. There are good reasons why the detail of that
has not yet been settled.
Chairman: You anticipate the very questions
we are going to put to you in the next hour.
Q1775 Lord Mancroft: Given recent comment
in the press, is the ODPM operating or thinking in terms that
the draft Bill now has a fourth objective, which is securing regeneration
and economic benefits from the development of large casinos, or
not?
Yvette Cooper: It would be wrong
to say it is a specific objective of the Bill. It is right to
think that one of the objectives of the planning system is to
ensure, where there are major developments, that we take account
of economic benefit, environmental impact, regeneration issues
and so on. It is certainly the case that the way the planning
system works at the moment with any large development is to try
to maximise the benefits both to the local area and also to the
region in terms of getting the location right. That has always
been an approach taken by the planning system; it has always been
one of the issues that the planning system takes into account.
The fact that what the Bill does is allow the possibility of very
significant developments with the possibility of casino resorts
and so on, inevitably means when those become questions for the
planning system in terms of where the location should be then
issues around economic benefit or regeneration, and those sorts
of things, will rightly be considered by the planning system,
just as they would be if it was any other kind of major retail
development or major leisure development of that kind.
Q1776 Mr Banks: Has there been any prior
economic assessment impact of such developments, prior to planning
permission being sought; or will this come as part of the planning
system application?
Yvette Cooper: Whenever any planning
permission is sought, particularly if we are talking about large-scale
planning permission, you would expect there to be assessments
done of the impact in terms of transport issues, the number of
people likely to use the area, the economic benefits and so on.
Those are all the sorts of things you would expect to be taken
into account. Obviously when you are talking about big developments,
those sorts of things are taken much more seriously. It is the
kind of thing that would be set out in some detail as part of
the planning inquiry, should it go to an inquiry stage, and things
like that. Obviously it does have to be done at the level of an
individual application, because it depends what it is: do they
want to link a casino with a hotel, and a whole series of other
linked leisure activities; or is it just simply a single small
casino in a small town? Obviously those have very different impacts.
When we have planning permission for retail developments or new
supermarkets you would expect all of those sorts of impact assessments
to be done.
Q1777 Mr Meale: The proposals in the
draft Bill provide for the involvement of the Gambling Commission,
local authorities, regional planning bodies, and Regional Development
Agencies in the development of large-scale casinos. That is a
fairly disparate group. How do you see them working together?
Yvette Cooper: The Regional Development
Agency and the regional planning body already have to work very
closely together. Regional Development Agencies have the money;
they draw up the big economic strategy for the region and what
the strategic priorities should be; but the regional plan needs
to reflect that. It needs to reflect what the economic strategy
is; what the priorities need to be in terms of what sort of employment
land is needed; what sort of housing land is needed; and decide
what the best broad locations would be and so on. We would expect
exactly the same sorts of things to apply at the regional level
when discussing what sort of casino development might be appropriate,
and what the land requirements would be; and where the best locations
would be. In order to do all of that, however, as part of regional
spatial strategy they need to consult in some detail with the
relevant stakeholders; and those stakeholders would obviously
include the Gambling Commission, and the gambling industry as
well. The Gambling Commission obviously has its own distinctive
role in terms of the actual licensing process in addition to that.
Then, of course, local planning authorities would expect to be
very closely involved in development of the regional spatial strategy;
and then they have to implement it with their own plans at the
local level as well. I think it very much mirrors the arrangements
that will take place in all kinds of industries, in all kinds
of areas.
Q1778 Mr Meale: You believe there needs
to be planning integration within the regions with the strategic
plans. Will that not simply lead to "big is beautiful"?
Yvette Cooper: No, I do not think
so. I think some of the kinds of casino resorts that are talked
about obviously have regional significance, because they would
be expecting to draw their market from a very wide area. They
would be expecting people to travel from a very wide area to come
to those. They have regional significance, in the same way that
Meadowhall in Sheffield has regional significance as a retail
development. I think it is right those sorts of things should
be considered at the regional level. What we are trying to do
as part of the process with the planning and compulsory purchase
bill is make the developments of the those regional strategies
more effective and involve the community and consultation with
stakeholders at a much earlier stage, so they actually take those
sorts of things into account at the beginning rather than at the
end of the process.
Q1779 Mr Meale: You know how it works
in local authorities and RDAs, and know the form of that. If they
draft-up strategic plans they will say, "This is where that
is going", and that will cause it to be an inhibitor in the
opportunities that other areas within that region may have?
Yvette Cooper: When you are talking
about the major developments with regional impact then they do
need to be considered at the regional level. If Castleford decides
it wants its Cas Vegas, and Leeds also decides it wants another,
and Barnsley decides also it wants another, each of those will
have a very substantial regional impact on next-door local authorities,
on transport systems spread across the region and on a whole series
of other issues affecting both the economic infrastructure and
transport infrastructure and so on. It is right that those sorts
of things should be decided at regional level—just as they
are with big retail developments and also big housing developments.
The discussions going on in the eastern region about the different
growth areas and where housing allocations should be actually
reflect very similar issues, and it is right that we should look
at the regional implications. If your concern is, will one area
be disadvantaged against another, that is why the regional planning
process has to be a very open one and has to allow every area
to be involved and to put their case. It also is always possible
for a proposal to come along which is a departure from the regional
plan and from the local plan. If it is a departure from the plan
it has got additional hurdles it has to go through, and it may
well be it will be called in by the Secretary of State and so
on; but it does not make it impossible to put forward proposals
if circumstances change that do involve departures.
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