Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40
- 59)
THURSDAY 1 JULY 2004
RT HON
LORD MCINTOSH
OF HARINGEY,
MR ELLIOT
GRANT AND
MR GREIG
CHALMERS
Q40 Lord Wade of Chorlton: What other
planning system will then come in? Suppose there is strong objection
to where regional people want to see a casino—there is an
application for it and there are strong objections—can that
go through the same process and be called in by the Secretary
of State for consideration by the Secretary of State?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: All
of these casinos will have this threshold which the Office of
the Deputy Prime Minister states as being capable of being called
in. It is not to say that they will be called in but they could
be. I think it is pretty likely that if there is an application
in an area which has not been declared as being suitable by the
regional authority the Secretary of State would call it in, yes.
Q41 Lord Wade of Chorlton: So he
might overrule the regional authority in those aspects, then.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not think it is overruling the regional authority because the
Secretary of State is not going to interfere in what the regional
planning authority does in terms of identifying suitable areas
for regional casinos. He might be overruling a local authority
which is likely to grant permission for a regional casino in an
area not decided by the regional authority as suitable.
Chairman: We will explore this further.
Q42 Baroness Golding: Following on
what Lord Wade said, Minister, many plans for casinos are already
well advanced. Is it not possible that in fact they will have
been granted planning permission before these regional strategies
are in place?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The
only planning permission that can be granted now until the Act
come into force is for a casino which has the limitations of the
existing law. In other words, it would have to be a members' club;
it could not have more than ten machines; it would have the 24-hour
wait; it could not advertise. If people are putting in for more
casinos on that basis, that is their commercial judgment, on which
I do not make any comment.
Q43 Chairman: What about grandfather
rights?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Those
which are in place will have grandfather rights for what they
have, yes.
Q44 Chairman: Are you in effect saying
that no consent currently granted could be interpreted as a consent
for a premises to which a regional casino licence would be granted?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We
cannot interpret consent. Consent is for a casino under the existing
law.
Q45 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I
thought we heard the Minister say earlier on in reply to another
question that some existing large casinos could, because of their
status, be converted into regional casinos by expansion.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes,
they could.
Q46 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: That
could apply to these new casinos which Baroness Golding is asking
about.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: If
when the new law comes in they meet the criteria for a regional
casino then they will have grandfather rights for a regional casino
licence, yes. But they will have to operate until that time with
only 10 machines and as members' clubs.
Q47 Baroness Golding: Yes, but I
still do not understand how this is going to solve the problem,
given the grandfather rights and the number of applications that
are held in the country. How is it going to solve the problem
of competing cities alongside each other, as the Chairman suggested
earlier, wishing to have these regional casinos? And who is going
to decide ultimately who gets them?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The
market is going to decide which ones make money.
Q48 Chairman: In part your policy
depends on the new regional spatial strategies making provision
for existing casinos. But our advice—and we will delve into
this next week—is that these strategies are two to three
years down the track. If the new Gambling Bill gets royal assent
before these strategies are in place, how does the market develop
a regional casino if you cannot have a regional casino unless
it fits the spatial strategy? Or do I have the policy wrong?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No,
you do not have the policy wrong, I just do not think that is
the way in which those responsible for regional strategy are working
or will work. As far as I am concerned, there is no reason why
regional planning authorities, regional planning bodies should
not now be starting work on their spatial strategies, as London
already has, for example. There is no reason why they should not
be declaring, as early as possible and publicly, their policy
about suitable locations for regional casinos. It is in their
interests to do so and I would encourage them to do so.
Q49 Baroness Golding: Could I come
back, Minister, to a problem we do not seem to have solved. How
does your new policy solve the dilemma of competing cities within
a region both wanting a regional casino?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: As
far as I am concerned, it is not competing cities, it is competing
proposals for casinos. That is what the market has to determine.
It is not for central government to intervene between Manchester
and Salford or Dudley and Sandwell.
Q50 Chairman: What about Manchester
and Blackpool?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That
is for the north-west regional planning board.
Q51 Chairman: But in your scheme
of things both could happen.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: If
the north-west planning board wants to do it that way, then that
is what they can do, and they will be subject to the market judgment
of those who are prepared to invest in casinos.
Q52 Chairman: We will ask them that
next because they are coming.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes.
Do.
Q53 Baroness Golding: If they both
get permission, how does this lead to protection of people against
problem gambling? How do you prevent proliferation of Category
A machines within a small area?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: You
are putting the position where two cities or more than two cities
close to each other are declared by one or more regional planning
body to be suitable areas for casinos. The actual number of casinos
will be determined not by the number of suitable areas that are
being declared but the number of people who are prepared to put
investment money in starting up regional casinos, and they will
make their judgment on the basis of the market. Whatever judgment
they make—and I am still not going to succumb to the temptation
of forecasting what they might do in any particular case or in
total—I can say without fear of contradiction that there
will be fewer locations for Category A machines under the regime
which we propose than under the regime which we proposed to you
before.
Q54 Jeff Ennis: Given the situation
in which we find ourselves, Minister, in terms of regional planning
boards and regional spatial strategies—and you said you
would welcome them getting on with it now—should we as the
Government not be giving them guidance and advice, to say that,
because of the situation, we need to be getting on with this now,
and not just leaving it to them?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My
impression is they are already talking to each other and thinking
about it. I am not sure how it is that we are expected to know
better than they do about the conditions in their own area. I
know that all governments are supposed to be centralist when in
office, but I am not centralist about this. There is already a
change in the sense that the Planning and Compulsory Purchase
Act 2004 is now in force and the regional planning guidelines
which exist now will on commencement of the Act become regional
spatial strategies. The guidance being given by the Office of
the Deputy Prime Minister is that they will wish to review as
part of their regional strategies the policies that they want
to adopt on casino development. There is no reason why they should
not and very good reasons why they should.
Q55 Chairman: We will explore this
next week. What is important is that the Minister, Yvette Cooper,
previously said that a regional casino, in her view, would be
one where the region would take an interest in the casino development
which would be regionally significant. That is to say, a large
number of people from across the region would go to it as opposed
to it simply being just a local facility used by the people in
the town or in that particular area.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I think
"regional significance" is a term of art for the Office
of the Deputy Prime Minister. It is defined. Our definition of
a regional casino is consistent with the ODPM's definition of
regional significance which has already been arrived at.
Chairman: That is what we are going to
try to test out.
Q56 Mr Meale: Minister, I think you
are being a bit complacent about competing cities and the situation
which arises out of that. For instance, take Birmingham which
has a policy of business tourism, business leisure and all the
rest of it, next door to Wolverhampton. Wolverhampton has already
a commitment to leisure, recreation, gaming and gambling. Birmingham
is a very strong, powerful and influential city within the west
Midlands area. The situation may arise where Birmingham exerts
all its influence to maintain its position in terms of business
and leisure tourism against a city next to it which already is
into that area. What I want you to answer is what Lord Wade asked
you earlier. Is it going to be a situation where normal guidelines
apply? For instance, I have not always understood the guidelines
for government. If somebody makes a planning application and there
are objections, those can be weighed but where a public body,
a local authority, says, "We have no objection" the
Secretary of State calls it in. Will the normal guidelines which
go with planning apply in respect of the new legislation which
is coming in?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No.
The legislation we are bringing in is about the regulation of
gambling; it is not an amendment to the planning policy. Existing
planning guidelines will still apply.
Q57 Viscount Falkland: Is there not
happily an agreement between the government and the Committee
on the strategy for using the machinery of destination gambling
being the best measure for combating problems in gambling? Is
there not an inconsistency which arises in your planning proposals
to have regional casinos in town centres? If category A gaming
machines are available on the high street, does this not increase
the possibility of problem gambling that you and we are so keen
to avoid?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I am
not sure I agree with you about what destination gambling means.
Destination gambling does not mean you have to make it as difficult
as possible to get to the destination. It means that choosing
a destination for gambling is making a choice as opposed to constant
exposure to gambling opportunities in non-gambling areas, which
is what is coming to be called "ambient gambling" rather
than destination gambling. We do not think that inaccessibility,
in the sense of being a long way from where people are, is a necessary
criterion. We think that wherever they are, whether they are in
town centres, whether they are in suburban areas or whether they
are outside, these casinos will not be the kind of things that
people will come across in their ordinary, daily life. People,
if they want to gamble in these new casinos, will choose to go
to them rather than going because they happen to walk past them
every day.
Q58 Viscount Falkland: Could I seek
to refine the definition that you make of destination casinos?
Is it not a question of distance which makes the decision of he
or she who wishes to gamble a key part of the decision? The fact
that you have to travel an appreciable distance either for a weekend
or for a holiday involves a decision to go and gamble. The fact
that you have the facility on the high street, it seems to me
and probably to other Members of the Committee, does create a
possibility of a temptation, if I can put it as strongly as that,
for people to visit the casino on the high street which makes
the possibility of gambling much greater.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I was
not attempting a definition of destination gambling. I think the
key point is your word "decision". People making a decision
is the important thing. The decision will be different for different
people. For some people, it will be driving to somewhere else
for the day or the evening. For some people, it will be something
closer to home. It depends on where you live, the population density
and all of those things. I do not think there is any presumption
in favour of inaccessibility defined as being 50 kilometres, 50
miles or whatever it may be. The important thing is, in a destination
regime, you are making a decision to go where gambling takes place
rather than find it thrust up against you.
Q59 Chairman: One aspect of this
which we have not listed as something to ask you this morning
but which has occurred to me is that the licensing of these premises
by local authorities will be subject to Gambling Commission advice
and guidance yet to be published.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That
is right.
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