Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 78)
THURSDAY 1 JULY 2004
RT HON
LORD MCINTOSH
OF HARINGEY,
MR ELLIOT
GRANT AND
MR GREIG
CHALMERS
Q60 Chairman: Is it your feeling
that you would expect that advice and guidance to have regard
to the problem of accessibility? You used the phrase "ambient
gambling". The phrase that Baroness Golding and I might use
after our visit to Australia is "street corner gambling".
This may be an issue of appropriate location as something that
could be covered in the Gambling Commission's guidance.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: It
is certainly a matter which local authorities will have to make
judgments about and, yes, I can imagine that the Gambling Commission
would give them guidance on that, but I am not sure how precise
the guidance could be because different conditions apply in cities,
in towns and in the country.
Q61 Lord Mancroft: Could we return
to something Lord Wade raised earlier, which is the power of the
Secretary of State to call in applications for regional casinos?
Will that become by default a means of deciding an application?
If that is the case, does that not lead to national planning for
casinos via a back door route?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Both
we and the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister are agreed that
we do not want national arrangements to plan the structure of
the casino market, but they will be able to give you more detail
when you talk to them next week. Our position is—and I think
they share this—that we have these call in powers, and they
exist not just for casinos but for all sorts of planning applications,
so that the Secretary of State can support regional policy where
a planning application departs from regional policy and guidance.
Q62 Chairman: There is potential
for quite a punch-up, is there not, between the big city council
and the regional planning body? If Manchester and Blackpool have
made their minds up that they are committed to these casino developments
that we know about that are very well advanced and the regional
planning body, which is the regional assembly, likely to remain
unelected in my view, is going to say, "Sorry, you can only
have one" I can see some potential for friction.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I will
not share your predictions on regional assemblies but the calling
in powers of the Secretary of State are intended in part to deal
with that potential for friction.
Q63 Lord Faulkner of Worcester: It
will not make any difference whether there is an elected regional
assembly or an unelected one?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No.
Q64 Jeff Ennis: When you gave evidence
to us in December, you acknowledged that very large casinos can
provide significant benefits to the areas in which they locate.
The government's response to our report however rejects our recommendation
that the very largest casinos should be required to contribute
regeneration benefits. Can you explain your position on this issue?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes.
I think the word "rejection" is too strong. The position
is that your words were "should be required to contribute
regeneration benefits". We are saying that planning obligations
may be sought to secure an acceptable development. That is not
simply a matter of what we want. We want the same thing as you.
We want regeneration; we want economic benefits, but it is a matter
of planning policy. It is contrary to planning policy, as can
be explained to you next week, to require casino operators to
contribute regeneration benefits. I think the spirit of our policy
is very much the same as yours. It is just a matter of what we
can do in the Bill, which is not a new Planning Bill.
Q65 Jeff Ennis: That would be the
main priority in terms of the RPBs drawing up their spatial strategy
in locations?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We
believe that regional casinos, by their very nature, will contribute
significant economic development and regeneration benefits through
the casino itself and the associated ancillary activities. On
top of that, what local authorities can negotiate in terms of
planning gain is up to them but clearly they will want to do so
if they can.
Q66 Jeff Ennis: What will be the
process through which RPBs will achieve regeneration benefits?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: What
the regional planning bodies will do will be to choose the most
appropriate locations for regional casinos in their areas and
they will do it where they see regeneration as being most needed,
I imagine.
Q67 Dr Pugh: It would be possible
for regional planning bodies, as regeneration is a necessary condition
for them to allocate a particular scheme to a particular area,
to come along and say, "That is where a casino would work."
There are no regeneration benefits but that is where it would
work. "That is where a regional casino would take off and
really do good business", but it would not necessarily have
any regeneration benefits to the town. They could just make a
straight, commercial decision that that is where the industry
would like to go?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: We
are not dictating to them what they should do but I think, if
anybody were to do that, that would be confusing the two roles,
the role of the regional planning body to maximise the regeneration
benefit by identifying areas which are suitable and the role of
the industry in determining what propositions are actually viable.
The point about that is that, in determining suitable areas, whatever
motivation they have for doing it, they cannot ensure that casinos
will be built. The people with the money have to make that decision.
Q68 Dr Pugh: You said necessarily
casinos have all sorts of good, economic spin-offs for the area
where they are viable so they could go to an area that is substantially
plush, well developed and doing rather well and it would be a
very good area where casinos would also work. A regional planning
body could allocate a scheme to that area, could they not?
Mr Chalmers: I do not disagree
with the theory of what you are saying. When regional planning
bodies draw up regional spatial strategies what they will be doing
in that process is consulting a number of people and definitely
amongst them would be local authorities and regional development
agencies, amongst whose responsibilities are regeneration and
the economic development area. I do not think we disagree with
the theory of what you are saying but people involved in consulting
on the RSSs will have one of their key objectives as regeneration.
Q69 Dr Pugh: It is likely that they
will pick on an area that has regeneration possibilities but it
is not necessary that they must?
Mr Chalmers: I think so.
Q70 Lord Wade of Chorlton: Is it
not rather odd that planning can insist upon environmental benefits
but cannot insist upon economic benefits?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: You
cannot force anybody to go ahead with a development, can you?
Q71 Lord Wade of Chorlton: No, you
cannot, but if they do go ahead you can insist that environmental
conditions apply. That is in planning law, but apparently from
what you are saying you cannot insist on economic benefits.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The
way in which economic benefits for a region will in my view be
optimised is if the regional planning body identifies those areas
which will maximise economic regeneration benefits.
Q72 Dr Pugh: They are not under an
obligation to do it?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No.
Chairman: It is all a question of what
you mean by regeneration. If there is a 20 acre site that is just
a big hole in the ground in the middle of Manchester, somebody
comes along, builds a casino, a hotel, five restaurants, a discotheque
and a number of other things, I cannot quite see that that is
anything but regeneration. The real question is: is that the appropriate
place in which to have a regional casino with the potential of
1,250 category A machines. That is the question that the Committee
is still a little bit confused about.
Q73 Jeff Ennis: The way it seems
to be developing—and obviously the commercial situation
is paramount to regional casinos—it appears to me that the
industry will go for the regional areas that identify large city
centres such as Manchester, Birmingham or wherever as the potential
regional casino development areas over and above, shall we say,
more peripheral areas which do not have the same advantage in
terms of population. Effectively, we are determining a policy
here which is steering the very large casinos to city centres
rather than to peripheral areas that will have more economic regeneration
advantage. What do you say about that?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not know that it is necessarily the case that peripheral areas
will have more economic regeneration benefits. Certainly there
is a presumption in ODPM planning policy first of all that you
should not have development, if you can avoid it, which kills
the economic viability of town centres. There is a sequential
process set out in various government planning policies about
town centres.
Q74 Chairman: We will explore this.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: You
will get other people to answer about that but I do not want to
make any assumption that either town centres, out of town centres,
rural areas or any others are more or less likely to produce economic
regeneration benefits. It is the regions who know that, not me.
Q75 Viscount Falkland: There has
been a regeneration philosophy perhaps running through all of
this which goes back as far as Budd and it is something with which
we all agree. When we went to France, we were impressed with their
regeneration philosophy as it relates to casinos which is aimed
uniquely towards the provision of benefits in the area of culture,
the arts and tourism. You can do that in a dirigiste environment
such as France but, going back to your remarks about what you
can and cannot do within the planning regime you take that on
board, but are you confident with the situation we have here that
regeneration benefits of any kind can be achieved if developers
are not obliged to deliver them? In your view, will regeneration
take priority over other planning gains?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: I do
not think this is an either/or case. This comes back to what you
said, Chairman, about a 20 acre vacant site somewhere in Manchester.
Regional casinos bring significant regeneration benefits as we
have said by themselves, because if they are occupying a vacant
site and providing economic activity, employment and ancillary
employment and so on they are bringing regeneration benefits of
their own. Then there is the issue of planning gain and you are
saying that in France you are admiring the hypothecation of planning
gain for arts, culture and so on. Of course I am sympathetic to
that, but planning gain is to be obtained by local authorities
for viable developments and they can do it whether they are casinos
or any other development. They can define it as they wish. If
they wish to see the construction of an arts centre or a conference
centre, an access road, a car park—
Q76 Viscount Falkland: Or a theatre?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Yes,
or anything they like. I guess they can do so. Examples of contributions
made through planning obligations include, as we say in the annex,
public transport improvements, affordable housing, open space
provision, social, educational, recreational or sporting facilities
and environmental protection. You can add culture to those if
you like. Why not?
Q77 Chairman: One of the reasons
why we suggested that there should be a requirement—in other
words, a very overt feature of both planning and the licensing
of these casinos—was to make the process more transparent
and, by doing that, to avoid opportunity for corruption. How do
you feel that what you are proposing will avoid the opportunity
for corruption?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The
issue of corruption is a much wider issue than casinos. Local
planning authorities, regional authorities, must all, whatever
the nature of the development, act within the law. Yes, casinos
are potentially profitable developments but so are shopping centres
and so are all sorts of developments. They have to operate within
the law and their decisions can be subject to judicial review
but there is an additional protection as far as gambling is concerned
which is the protection of the Gambling Commission because the
Gambling Commission has, as one of its three objectives, keeping
gambling crime free. That includes stopping people attempting
to bribe regional planning authorities or local authorities. I
do not think they would be very keen if there were any suggestion
of corruption. Indeed, I venture to say that I do not think corruption
is endemic in local government in this country at this time.
Q78 Chairman: It is back to the Gambling
Commission's guidance to local councils. That is going to be a
very interesting feature of the new proposals. Minister and your
two colleagues, you have been very generous with your time once
again. It has been extremely helpful and we thank you both for
your attendance. The Committee stands adjourned until 9.30 on
Tuesday 6 July.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Thank
you for your consideration and courtesy.
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