Examination of Witnesses (Questions 131
- 139)
TUESDAY 6 JULY 2004
MR REG
HASLAM, MR
STEVE WEAVER,
MS JUDITH
SALOMON, MR
MICHAEL GALLIMORE,
SIR HOWARD
BERNSTEIN AND
MR DAVID
CARTER
Q131 Chairman: Can we welcome back
to the Committee Reg Haslam, who is the Head of New Horizons Team
in Blackpool Council and Steve Weaver the Blackpool Council Chief
Executive, whom we first met on a rather cold day up in Blackpool.
Here we are again on a lovely summer's day—still none the
wiser! New faces: Judith Saloman, Director of Planning, London
First; Michael Gallimore, Head of Planning, Lovells; Sir Howard
Bernstein, Chief Executive of Manchester City Council; and we
also welcome David Carter from Birmingham City Council who has
come at very short notice. We are very glad to have you with us.
Can I begin by asking Mr Haslam and Mr Weaver, when you last gave
evidence to us, you were critical of the lack of a definition
of what was then widely referred to as "resort" casinos.
Does the proposed definition of "regional" casinos address
your concerns? Do you think the Government has got the definition
right?
Mr Haslam: Thank you, Chairman.
We campaigned for what we refer to as "clear blue water"
between the small and large casinos and what we define as "resort"
casinos. That clear blue water has been provided. The exit level
for a large casino is 150 gaming machines; the entry level for
a regional casino is a thousand machines. There is a very distinct
differentiation between large and regional. We applaud that and
believe that differentiation will lead to the kind of product
we were looking for in the marketplace. We are concerned, clearly,
that the regeneration emphasis has been diluted somewhat. We are
concerned that the destination definition has been altered to
an extent. We saw destination casino and destination gambling
as something that took place within a larger tourist destination
that was associated with an overnight stay perhaps, or two overnight
stays, that was something which occurred less frequently in the
lives of those visiting that location perhaps two or three times
a year as opposed to weekly—much more sensible in social
policy terms. We believe that has been diluted. We are also concerned
by the implicit assumption that the 5,000 square metres floor
space will in fact attract very large casinos with an overall
gross of three times that, perhaps 1,500 square metres. I do not
believe that is the case. I know from my own contacts with the
industry that agents are looking for sites within 7,000, 8,000
to 10,000 square metres, sites where the net gaming area could
represent 80-85% of the total development. There clearly is a
"may" in front of the word "hotel" in many
other forms of development. There is an opportunity to create
a very wide-ranging product, and an opportunity to bring to the
marketplace the concept I think we feared most which was the cruiserweight
casino. We have, in our evidence, asked for a gross ratio to net
of 1:1, where a 55,000 square metres net area is associated with
a 10,000 square metres gross; so we do get the larger casinos
we are looking for. If we seek to build our ambitions into the
categorisation then there is a greater chance we will have the
fewer casinos the Government is looking for. If we give an opportunity
for cruiserweight casinos we will see many more. You mentioned,
Mr Chairman, 50 casinos—50 casinos across the UK would probably
put 70-80% of the UK population within a 15-20 minute travel time
of a casino. For me, that is proliferation.
Q132 Chairman: When you say "cruiserweight"
can we just be clear, you are talking about cruiserweight which
nonetheless would be regional casinos?
Mr Haslam: Yes.
Q133 Chairman: Your view is that,
whilst you welcome the clarity of the differentiation, which we
recommended as you know, you think the threshold is probably too
low and needs to be higher?
Mr Haslam: Too many opportunities.
Q134 Chairman: That creates too many
chances?
Mr Haslam: Yes, too many chances.
Clearly we will come later to the D2 Use, but that creates in
addition too many chances to circumvent the planning system.
Mr Weaver: The Government has
been very clear and been very cautious in the way that this has
been rolled out, in order to ensure that proliferation through
the large numbers of high prize slot machines does not happen.
Therefore, in terms of that being one of the guiding principles
that seem to be driving this through in terms of caution, we feel
to introduce that and to be sure about this cautious approach
we do need this wider definition of a regionally significant casino,
to ensure that we do not get the proliferation Reg has referred
to of 80% of our population within a 15 minute travel time from
these casinos. That I think is necessary in order that that first
assessment of a cautious approach, to be looked at again in six
years' time with baseline studies. If that has been too restrictive
and too conservative, it will allow that to be taken forward at
that time; but because of the real dangers of proliferation, the
real need to have this clear blue water and this distinctive nature,
we clearly believe there is a need to take the huge step (in giving
this clarity and the clear blue water) just one step further to
deliver the product as was the intent.
Q135 Chairman: If they did, do you
think then that the plans would enable Blackpool to achieve its
objective of being a first-class resort for the 21st century?
Mr Haslam: Chairman, every step
we take to build clarity into this piece of legislation makes
it quite clear to us that the competitive issue within our region
is starker. We accept that. In trying to build clarity into this
piece of legislation we are, in a sense, working for the region,
for Blackpool and for Manchester. There remains this major, major
issue of how does the region, the Government and Blackpool secure
a share of this new industry? There is much said in the Government
response, and in your own papers, of existing interests; and clearly
Blackpool has been here from day one. There is a major gambling
interest in Blackpool. There are 6,000 machines on Blackpool seafront;
60% of them are prize machines and 30% of them are adult machines.
The new market will cause displacement—we are aware of that.
Blackpool, without a share of the new casino market, will suffer.
It will accelerate the decline we are already experiencing. We
are looking for direction centrally which favours the regeneration
of existing tourism economies. We are looking for the Government
to build into its guidance to regional planning authorities some
kind of sequential arguments applying nationally—not saying
where they will be, but the criteria that would ensure that existing
interests are, in fact, protected.
Mr Weaver: Earlier there was reference
to a national spatial plan, and clearly we do not believe that
is the way in which the Government wants to go and is not necessary
for the Government to go in order to deliver its objectives. We
do feel there is a need for national guidance and clarity about
what is meant by "regeneration", in order that the regional
planning bodies can deliver through the regional spatial strategies
the Government's intent. Locating the regionally significant casinos—which
are exceptional developments by their very nature in terms of
the profit that they generate and the number of people that will
go through them in a year—I think our estimation is that
on the sizes talked about three million people go through one
of these casinos in a year. They are exceptional developments
both in their nature and the impact they have on the environment,
transport and communities; they are exceptional in terms of the
profits they generate. The Government must put in place some national
guidance that the regional planning bodies can use in determining
where within the regions the location should be. In answer to
the question—if the regional significant casinos
have this extra dimension that we would be arguing for, they can
create Blackpool into a 21st century resort, to be the pride not
just of this country, of the north west but of Europe—that
will also depend on the Government giving guidance as to how regional
planning bodies should operate, and the decisions being taken
within regions being influenced by where the best impact of these
exceptional developments could take place.
Q136 Janet Anderson: Mr Weaver and
Mr Haslam, would you contend that the economic benefit to somewhere
like Blackpool would in fact be greater than to somewhere like
Manchester or Liverpool? If someone was going to Blackpool and
the Government called them regional casinos rather than resort
casinos it would essentially be a resort casino they were going
to and they would be much more likely to stay overnight than they
would in Manchester or Liverpool? We know that the economic benefit
where there is one or two overnight stays is much greater. Do
you think that would be an added attraction for setting these
casinos in Blackpool?
Mr Haslam: Yes. Fundamentally
there is a concept—and Members are familiar with that concept
of resort regeneration, of a cluster of casinos at the heart of
a regeneration strategy—which is designed to turn an ailing
seasonal economy into a 52-week a year economy. That does not
simply mean that people go through the casinos 52 weekends a year
and 52 weeks of the year. It means that every business in Blackpool,
which is currently burdened by seasonal economy, has an all-year
economy. Their income streams change, the investment patterns
change, and we have the catalytic effect we are looking for of
the big bang and resort regeneration. If the Government wishes
to pursue and provide an opportunity for that particular event
to occur we need additional guidance and help. We are confident,
having studied the casino market abroad, having looked at customer
flows through casinos, that it will provide that catalytic effect.
Q137 Janet Anderson: There is a particular
need, in your view, for the Government to give clearer guidance
about resort regeneration and to give that a greater priority?
Mr Haslam: Ailing tourism economies,
which clearly include resorts.
Q138 Dr Pugh: What percentage of
the current visitors to Blackpool actually stay in Blackpool,
as opposed to day visitors? What is the ratio? You seem to be
speculating there will be big change in that ratio.
Mr Haslam: Staying as opposed
to day trippers is 60:40. The statistic which will interest you,
I am sure, is the decline now in day drippers is steeper than
in staying guests, but both are declining in a way that points
in a direction that is absolute terminal decline. The proportion
of staying visitors to Blackpool who live outside the Granada
TV region is 70-75%. With a casino cluster, and with planning
obligations that would require co-operative action, we do not
see that particular gambling experience being marketed to a locals
market, but marketed very aggressively through the critical mass
of the small cluster nationally. We see Blackpool, because of
its connections and its local airport, attracting pounds into
the region and euros into the region. We have strong connections
with Eire and we see strong connections with northern Europe.
Mr Weaver: When we started this
journey four years ago we needed to identify a driver that would
take Blackpool away from being a short, seasonal economy with
people having low wages, into being a 52-week weather-independent
economy. Casinos were chosen as part of that strategy and were
the key driver four years ago. Not just because they can deliver
that seven-days-a-week, 52-weeks-a-year economy for the rest of
Blackpool but also, because of the people coming to Blackpool
currently, we are missing out on the socio-economic groups A and
B in Blackpool. Casinos will bring those people back into Blackpool,
and put more money back into our economy. Without this key economic
driver we cannot see a real future for Blackpool as a result.
Coming back to Janet Anderson's question earlier, this is absolutely
fundamental to Blackpool as an economy. Without this driver we
will not deliver change. We are now in the top ten of the most
deprived communities in terms of concentration of deprivation.
This is an opportunity for the UK and for the region to do something
about that. It can put something in place that we know will work.
It is not flying in the face of the market but it is helping the
market make the right decisions to turn Blackpool round.
Chairman: You have made that very clear.
We are aware that there is no Plan B for Blackpool! We have interests
from other local authorities with us.
Q139 Baroness Golding: Turning to
Mr Carter, Ms Salomon and Sir Howard, looking at your regions,
what impact will the definition of regional casinos have on plans
for such developments in London, Manchester and Birmingham?
Sir Howard Bernstein: We have
not looked at this from the perspective of casinos of 80,000 square
foot. We have actually looked at this as a driver of regeneration
and, more particularly, the way in which initiatives such as this
should connect with people, andt with communities in order to
drive economic and social renewal. That is fundamentally the way
in which we have driven forward our overall proposals. Based on
a range of conversations with different operators in terms of
markets and market share we believe there is room for at least
three major casinos in the north west. We believe also, having
regard to declared priorities for the region and declared sub-regional
priorities in terms of how we deliver real regeneration on the
ground, that Manchester should be one of those. The other point
I would make is, that Manchester is not just being regional capital
as Manchester is also the second most visited city outside London
in England. Therefore, the diversification of its economic base,
the importance of Manchester becoming a destination centre in
its own right is not just important for Manchester, it is also
fundamentally important for the north west; and for the Deputy
Prime Minister's Northern Way overall strategy. We are absolutely
clear that the way in which we move forward, with what we have
to deliver in Manchester and East Manchester, is not important
just for Manchester, it is also important for the wider region.
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