Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
MS ANNIE
CAMPBELL, MS
REBECCA DUDLEY,
MS ANN
HAMILTON AND
MS BRONAGH
ANDREW
22 MAY 2006
Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon, everybody.
This is the first of our evidence sessions in our inquiry into
human trafficking. We are joined by Annie Campbell, who is the
Director, and Rebecca Dudley, who is the Women's Aid Volunteer,
of the Women's Aid Federation of Northern Ireland. And by Ann
Hamilton, who is the Principal Officer of Glasgow City Council
and Chair of the Glasgow Inter Agency Trafficking Working Group,
and Bronagh Andrew, who is Counter Trafficking Development Officer
of the Glasgow Inter Agency Trafficking Working Group. Do either
of you want to make any opening statements, because if not we
will go straight to questions?
Ms Campbell: Perhaps a brief one,
if I may. Thank you very much for the invitation to come here
on behalf of Women's Aid. As I am sure you know, we are the regional
body in Northern Ireland that would help domestic violence victims
and their families. This issue came to our attention and we were
concerned that it was happening within Northern Ireland and that
issue had not really got into the spotlight. We wanted to take
forward the research, which is the first preliminary research
within Northern Ireland, about trafficking and we do have a number
of issues coming out of that, recommendations and so on, but perhaps
they can come out during the course of the session. Thank you
again.
Ms Hamilton: Equally, we are just
very pleased to be here to talk about the issue of trafficking
today.
Q2 Chairman: Could both of you keep
your voices up for the shorthand writer. I should also say we
are being televised. We may have interruptions for votes in either
House. Perhaps I could start off by asking the delegation from
Northern Ireland, because of your geographical distinctiveness
do you think that trafficking is a more serious problem in Northern
Ireland than in other parts of the UK? Is Northern Ireland primarily
a transit or destination point? If it is transit, is it mainly
people transiting to Ireland or to the UK?
Ms Campbell: I think you will
probably find we will be a bit of a double act on this in terms
of Rebecca is more familiar with the details of the research.
This is preliminary research. What has been revealed is that it
is coming in both directions, that is what we are getting in an
anecdotal sense, so we do not have an answer to say definitively
one way or the other which way the trafficking is most intense.
We would say that because we do occupy that area where basically
there is no land border and because of the conflict situation
there has been in Northern Ireland we think the conditions are
ripe there for trafficking to take off.
Ms Dudley: One thing I found in
my research was police sources have noted the ease with which
the land border can be crossed within Ireland and also the increased
use of Northern Ireland both as a route through to the UK from
the Republic and going in the other direction. We do not have
the information to know the relative numbers on that. We do know
that the border is used commonly every day for all sorts of activities
from work to going to the dentist, so it is very, very easy to
cross. We had some indication that has been the case from the
professionals I interviewed.
Q3 Chairman: Perhaps I can ask the
people from Glasgow, you suggested in your own evidence that trafficking
of women for sexual exploitation is on the increase in Glasgow,
and you gave certain indications of numbers: use of anonymous
third party reporting, women accessing services from Base 75,
support which you and voluntary organisations have provided to
individual women, which is the basis for your views. How full
a picture do you think you are building up of what is going on
in Glasgow?
Ms Hamilton: I think it is very
difficult to get a picture of the scale of trafficking. What we
have tried to do is look at the scale of the sex industry and
that gives you a reasonable picture of what is likely to happen
in terms of women being trafficked in for that industry. Recently
we did some work looking at the sex industry and we saw about
264,000 purchases of sex by men spending at least £6.6 million
per year on saunas, flats, et cetera. That was taken from some
work through Punternet and other such websites where men talk
about their experience of buying sex. Certainly we are finding
that the sex industry is expanding in lap dancing, limousine services,
takeaway services, and as long as you have got that expansion
you are likely to have women trafficked in to fulfil those services.
In terms of the number of women who have been trafficked, agencies
in Glasgow have come into contact with about 112 foreign women.
Through our third party reporting service we have knowledge of
46 foreign women where there are concerns that they have been
trafficked. That gives us some idea of the scale. It is very difficult
to build up a picture where the sex industry is very much underground
and is part of criminal activity.
Q4 Chairman: Perhaps I could ask
Northern Ireland, one of the things you particularly mentioned
were unaccompanied minors being trafficked through the Republic
and Northern Ireland. Have you any further information on how
they get into Northern Ireland and how they are exploited there?
Ms Campbell: Whilst Becky hooks
out that relevant piece of data, may I say in respect of that
there has been a great deal of concern in the Republic of Ireland,
which you may be familiar with, in respect of unaccompanied minors.
From our perspective, if that is being revealed in the Republic
then from the traffickers' point of view there is no border so
we would be quite clear that could have transferred to the northern
end of the island. In respect of what my colleague from Glasgow
has said, basically prostitution has always been off-street more
or less in Northern Ireland, partly because of the troubles and
the environment, so the conditions are already there in terms
of the secret networks, areas where the police do not really go
still, although that is changing a bit obviously. They would be
the reasons why we feel that if the numbers across the rest of
the UK and the Republic are rising, we can be quite sure that
is being echoed within Belfast and other Northern Irish towns,
particularly the border towns.
Q5 Chairman: Is there any paramilitary
involvement in trafficking?
Ms Campbell: There is a lot of
anecdotal evidence which comes out of the report from some of
the professionals we interviewed who did claim that but we have
not got exact evidence of that. I would say the paramilitary culture,
if you like, has created the conditions where there is a gang
culture that is flourishing but whether that is related to paramilitaries
or not is another matter. The covert operations and secret operations
and the types of trafficking and smuggling that have been going
on in Northern Ireland for years, and there is a lot of expertise
on that, are ripe for transfer to human trafficking.
Q6 Chairman: Perhaps this is a question
to both of you, both Northern Ireland and Scotland. You are both
calling for greater research and I think that is a general plea
we are going to be hearing, to get a better picture of the nature
and extent of the trafficking. What sort of research do you think
is needed, and who should do it? Do you think it will ever be
possible to get an accurate picture given the fact that what we
are talking about is by its nature illegal?
Ms Hamilton: You need to look
at the demand. The focus of research that has been done is on
women's experiences of being trafficked. We know a lot about how
women suffer through involvement in prostitution and having been
trafficked. What we do not know a lot about is the men who are
buying the services of women and the way in which the sex industry
is operating. Certainly we have anecdotal evidence of different
brothel owners sharing women and moving women from city to city
and we are seeing women moved from Glasgow to Edinburgh and Glasgow
to Newcastle. Certainly what is needed is more research on the
men who are buying sex and the organisation of the sex industry.
The other thing that would be helpful would be something that
looks at how we can start to influence young people's views so
that we can tackle the issue of prostitution in the long-term.
We are absolutely convinced that there are no short-term answers
except providing support for the women who have been involved
in this.
Ms Dudley: I think that more research
is needed in each of the areas that emerged from the interviews
and the work that I did in Northern Ireland. There is more research
needed with regard to exploited labour. In Northern Ireland there
is more research needed with regard to exploited women and girls,
whether they are trafficked from other countries or whether they
are internally trafficked in Northern Ireland, because that also
emerged as an issue in the research that I did. There is further
research required with regard to unaccompanied minors and with
regard to young people who are born in Northern Ireland who have
been sexually exploited systematically. Each of those areas is
a distinct area because the way that individuals might present
as trafficked would be quite distinct for each of those different
areas. To the people who might encounter them first, whether they
are community workers, NGOs, people in churches or in anti-racist
groups or what have you, on the voluntary sector side or immigration
officials or police officers or special police teams that work
on sexual abuse issues, the types of trafficking that emerged
through interviews I did would present itself in a very different
cluster of circumstances. More information is needed about a range
of issues with regard to each of those. For example, what impact
does the Irish border have on this issue? We have some anecdotal
evidence but we would like to know more. Are there different situations
in Northern Ireland as a result of the context of the Irish border?
There does seem to be a larger than proportionate number of unaccompanied
minors in relation to the respective population in the Republic
of Ireland than there is in the UK, for example. That was reported
by the International Organisation on Migration a couple of years
ago. The other kind of research that we would want is to identify
where women and children in particular are presenting as trafficked.
Are they presenting in serious organised crime or presenting in
a rape inquiry, et cetera. We would like to know who is keeping
records on this and, if not, why not. We want to know what kinds
of interview techniques are used to identify people who are trafficked
and are they sensitive, are they according to Home Office guidelines
and guidelines that come from Anti-Slavery International, are
there risk management protocols in place. There is a whole range
of issues we are interested in.
Q7 Baroness Stern: This is a question
mainly about the criminal law and it is addressed to our visitors
from Northern Ireland in particular. As far as we know the Government
is happy with its current legislative framework and the Government
is content that it meets international standards, by which I mean
the UN Trafficking Protocol and the EU Council Framework Decision
on Combating Trafficking. Our visitors from Glasgow, the Glasgow
Working Group, also seems to think the legislative framework is
satisfactory and points to a number of successful prosecutions.
From Northern Ireland, in your paper you call for legislative
reform to establish more "accountability of perpetrators".
Could you tell us what you are thinking of there when you say
that?
Ms Campbell: When I was looking
at the global situation it seemed to me that it has been a legal
disaster in terms of the number of people who are being held accountable
for this. In terms of Northern Ireland we are saying to you we
are where it is happening, albeit the evidence we have to back
that up is mostly anecdotal, and yet no-one has been successfully
tried. From my point of view that proves something in the legal
set-up and mechanisms are not working. Not being a lawyer I cannot
do that, although I am sure there are plenty of illustrious lawyers
who can do something to fix it if it is not working. In respect
of the general recommendations we are making, that would be one,
to wake up the international community as well as the United Kingdom
Government to the fact that this is slavery in the 21st century
and to adopt a zero tolerance approach to it and do everything
that is necessary, including signing up to the European Convention,
to sort out the mechanics and legalities of it so you can track
down the perpetrators. The other side of that is to make sure
that places of safety and support are provided for those women
and children who are the victims.
Q8 Mary Creagh: I would like to come
in and ask a little bit more about that. You said no-one has been
successful in prosecuting. Does that mean people have been prosecuted
and those prosecutions have failed or they simply have not been
prosecuted?
Ms Dudley: As far as I can make
out there appear to be three cases in progress at the moment.
Q9 Lord Judd: My first question applies
both to Northern Ireland and Glasgow. While acknowledging various
good practices facilitated by the Government, a number of organisations
have also expressed concern over the effectiveness of law enforcement
on trafficking. What do you see as the major problems in the current
law enforcement practices?
Ms Hamilton: Certainly I think
that training and awareness for police staff is very important.
Our experience has been that the police have been into a number
of premises and women have said what they have been told to say,
which is that they are happy to be there, they came freely and
they have a boyfriend who is supporting them in this country.
Certainly that has been the pattern. If the police take that at
face value it is a problem because what happens is they do not
find out the full story. We have worked very closely with the
police in Strathclyde and that is undoubtedly improving because
what they are finding is if they put in support through our project
then they are more likely to get the full story from the women
they have concerns about. Training and awareness is very, very
important. There is an issue of resources, which is what they
say to us all the time, that they would like to be keeping an
eye on all the premises that they have concerns about and all
the individuals they have concerns about but they do not have
the resources to do that. That may be about the priority that
is given to this issue. Certainly the more work they do, the more
they recognise that they need to put resources in. We are in a
position now where we have one person charged with trafficking
offences and a number of other ongoing investigations where we
are hopeful that there may be some charges. Certainly it takes
a lot of resources to be able to mount an investigation.
Q10 Lord Judd: So if you are advocating
improvements in Glasgow you would not say those improvements are
going to be won by direct action by the police, it has to be in
the context of a number of agencies working together?
Ms Hamilton: Absolutely. That
is where we have seen our success. I think the police would say
that as well, that they have benefited from working with ourselves
at the City Council, with some of the NGOs and the health service,
to name some of the agencies that are involved. Undoubtedly that
has improved their ability to investigate, to gather information
and to mount operations.
Q11 Lord Judd: Is it the same position
in Northern Ireland?
Ms Dudley: Certainly we would
look for more training and awareness about the wide range of trafficking
issues that could emerge in Northern Ireland. I would just like
to share with you a couple of things that professionals told me
with regard to their own perceptions of the police's role. Firstly,
one person said: "I don't think the police see themselves
as having a role except in enforcing immigration legislation.
We talked to the Vice Squad at their invitation to meet and prostitution
was an issue for them but there was no idea about how to interview
women to decide what level of consent was there. If they are just
asking, `Do you want to be here or sent home?' then women are
going to say, `Yes, I want to be here'." That was one quote.
Secondly: "The police's role is to use all methods possible
to counteract and eradicate the problem of trafficking. The police
should be going undercover. They are far too concerned with people's
status, `Are you here illegally or not?'. They should be saying,
`Here is someone who is here illegally, how did this happen?'.
These young girls are discovered in brothels and the whole emphasis
is on their status and whether they are illegal instead of treating
them as victims".
Q12 Lord Judd: So if you were advocating
improvements, how would you crystallise your priorities?
Ms Campbell: I think it echoes
what our Glasgow colleagues were saying. We need an integrated
strategy. Throwing all the resources in the world at the police
is not going to solve this. We need an integrated strategy and
we see that within the context of violence against women and children
because it is important that we look at the causes of this and
why it is that women's and children's lives are so devalued that
this has become such a global problem and got so little attention.
We would see parallels with the domestic violence situations at
the beginning of the women's aid movement when there was so much
silence around and denial that it was happening: "The women
must be really enjoying it. It must be okay for them". All
of those things parallel very well the trafficking situation.
The integrated strategy has to issue directives to police forces
and police services to say "take this on board", coupled
with training and awareness raising because the average constable
in Northern Ireland will know nothing about it, not necessarily
through their own fault. I would stress again that we do not want
to wait years for research, we want to see places of safety and
support set up for women, education for the community and helplines
so people can whistle blow if they see something. Some of the
anecdotal evidence we have had in the border towns is women within
women's aid networks will be aware there is a group of foreign
women in a house and people thinking it is a brothel which then
disappears within two weeks and re-emerges somewhere else. We
can pick up the women who finally come to our refuges, and there
have been a number of those, but we cannot stop it. We need everybody
working together.
Q13 Lord Judd: We have seen references
to a Garda and PSNI Cross-Border Organised Crime Assessment that
says: "there is no evidence to suggest any form of coercion
or duress; all claim to be involved of their own volition as they
can earn a reasonable wage". From the tenor of what you have
been saying I would gather that you do not altogether endorse
that?
Ms Campbell: I would say I disagree
vehemently. Frankly, I think that is coming from a very ignorant
position of what it means to be trafficked, the types of backgrounds
the women and children are coming from and the horrors they may
have had to face. The reality is they will be treated with very
little respect for their human rights and probably bundled out
of the country really quickly, so would anyone not say they were
okay?
Ms Hamilton: I think it also shows
a misunderstanding of the nature of prostitution. If you look
at how prostitution is organised, most of the Glasgow women and
ordinary Belfast women will be involved in prostitution because
they have a debt which is owed, so they are debt bonded quite
often to the owner of the brothel. One sauna in Glasgow in particular
advertised that on its website as a particular feature because
it ensured confidentiality and it said all their staff were bonded.
There is no explanation for that other than they were debt bonded.
Those women would all say, if interviewed, "Yes, I am doing
this freely, I am not being coerced" but we know that there
is coercion and debt there.
Q14 Lord Judd: You underlined in
your previous point there has to be a wider network of approach
to the problem.
Ms Hamilton: Yes.
Q15 Lord Judd: Could I finish with
a question to you both. The Government claims that the co-ordination
of activities in relation to trafficking has improved since the
inception of Reflex. However, many local and community organisations
do not endorse that. What is your own experience in your regions?
Do you think the Government provides sufficient human, material
and financial resources as well as training to tackle the trafficking
of human beings? I rather suspect I know what your answer is going
to be but I want to put the question.
Ms Hamilton: Undoubtedly there
has been an improvement over the last couple of years but we have
a different context in Glasgow in that we have been involved in
looking at the issue of prostitution since 1998 on an inter-agency
basis with our colleagues in the police and other agencies. There
is already a framework there and trafficking for sexual exploitation
very much fits within that framework. Undoubtedly we need more
resources. We are operating on the basis of using existing mainstream
and voluntary services to provide support for these women. It
is expensive and, undoubtedly, as things like Operation Pentameter
bring us more and more women we will need more resources. There
is a particular problem with women from accession countries where
support is not available. That is a particular issue because it
would appear that traffickers are bringing in more Lithuanian
and Estonian women who have got the right to be here, so they
are not questioned by immigration, but they do not have any access
to benefits or support and that is a major problem for us.
Ms Campbell: Basically we are
starting way, way back from that. So many things froze over time
because of the conflict in Northern Ireland and the climate was
not such that you could discuss whether prostitution happened
or not, it was not on the agenda. We are starting from there.
In relation to trafficking, most people would have no idea except
for those on the ground, for example in the Belfast Women's Aid
Refuge, who have had experience of women who have ended up there
who have been through the trafficked system. In terms of resources,
none have been put in. One of the reasons why we are here is to
make the plea that if and when it is looked at properly Northern
Ireland is not forgotten and that particularly singular place
we occupy in terms of the borders and the conditions because of
the conflict is recognised.
The Committee suspended from 4.42 pm to
4.51 pm for a division in the House or Lords.
Q16 Mary Creagh: Both of you in your
submissions urge the Government to sign the Council of Europe
Convention on Trafficking. Can you just say how you think signing
the Convention would make a difference to the victims you see,
and in particular what difference you think the reflection period
would make?
Ms Andrew: I think legislating
for women's rights currently operates on a case-by-case basis
and if we were able to categorically say to women, "You are
entitled to this assistance from us for this period of time"
it would allow women breathing space and they would not be concerned
about their immediate future or whether they were going to be
immediately deported back or remain in police custody. It would
go some way towards offering reassurance which women need to have
within that initial period of contact with the authorities. Women
do not trust the authorities, and by "the authorities"
I mean police, immigration officers, social workers, anybody seen
to have a position of power over them. Even to offer them that
level of support and that categorical reassurance for even just
four weeks would be very important in building up the women's
ability to trust workers and to begin to slowly disclose what
has happened to them.
Ms Dudley: Quoting from the US
State Department's Trafficking in People Survey, the most recent
one, it says: "Few activities are as brutal and damaging
as prostitution. Filed research in nine countries concluded that
65-70% of prostitutes were physically assaulted[1]
and 68% met the criteria for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in
the same range as treatment seeking combat veterans and victims
of state torture". There are a number of reasons why at least
a month of reflection period would make a material difference
for women who have been traumatised and subjected to a whole range
of crimes, some of which are hard to imagine in their level of
abuse. Some of them have to do with psychological issues around
going through the trauma and some of them have to do with access
to health. One of the issues that emerged several times in the
interviews I did was women presented as trafficked because they
were pregnant and they had not had any maternity care, for example.
There is a range of psychological and physical health issues that
may emerge as well as the need for counselling. We would say the
primary reason for that is out of respect of the human rights
of that woman, that victim of trafficking. There may be a secondary
reason why a reflection period could be useful and that would
be to possibly present as a witness for the prosecution of traffickers
and bring them to account.
Q17 Mary Creagh: What do you say to people
who say that allowing a reflection period could possibly work
as a pull factor encouraging people to come here?
Ms Dudley: I wonder how willing
they are to violate every possible human right of those women
in order to satisfy a potential problem that might occur in the
immigration system. It appears to me that the concern has been
primarily with seeing trafficking as something that is keeping
the UK from meeting its immigration quotas as opposed to a massive
violation of human rights.
Ms Andrew: That was one of the
reasons why we cited Italy as having a model of best practice,
certainly their application of Article 18, the Immigration Residence
Permit. There is certainly nothing in the figures published to
suggest that being entitled to up to 18 months' legal stay in
Italy has acted in any way as a pull factor. I think it is unfortunate
that it has become tangled up as an immigration crime rather than
a serious crime against the person.
Q18 Mary Creagh: Glasgow, perhaps
you can tell us a bit more about the project you are currently
setting up which you say has been agreed with the Home Office
using the same criteria as the Poppy Project. What criteria have
you used? Can you tell us a little bit about the funding that
is available?
Ms Andrew: Our funding comes from
the Scottish Executive. We have an award at just under £100,000
for the next two years to continue work that we had carried out
in 2004. Our primary role is to try to ascertain what the situation
in Glasgow and the rest of Scotland is in terms of women trafficked
for the purposes of sexual exploitation and to try to develop
some level of support services for any women we find who have
been trafficked. We are fortunate in Glasgow because, as Ann mentioned
earlier, we have been looking at the issue of prostitution since
1998 and we have established services providing dedicated expert
support to women who are already involved in prostitution, either
on-street prostitution or off-street prostitution, who are able
to use those services, which have the experience of supporting
very traumatised women, to look at their options and to look to
the future to try to exit prostitution. We are able to link in
with those services to provide additional support to them. We
are still in the very early stages. We have offered direct support
to six women since we started in 2004 and four of those women
have been within the past two months. As awareness has risen and
as Operation Pentameter has led to increased police activity,
that has led to increased referrals for us and will continue to
do so. We have evidence of women from 25 different nationalities
accessing Base 75, which is health and social work drop-in support
for women involved in prostitution.
Q19 Mary Creagh: We had a briefing
from the police last week and one of the striking things they
told us was that 10 years ago 85% of the women involved in prostitution
were British but it has almost completely inverted over the last
10 years and now 85% of women involved in prostitution are from
overseas. Can you say a little bit about whether that chimes with
your experience? We are particularly interested in the Northern
Ireland experience. What extra challenges does that put on you
as service providers and people who are trying to help women involved
in this trade?
Ms Hamilton: It is not to that
extent in Glasgow. I would say that we have a service for women
involved in indoor prostitution who can come forward and access
health and social care support. About 50% of those come from other
nationalities. What we cannot say is that means of all women involved
in indoor prostitution 50% are from other nationalities, but I
would have thought that is a reasonable indication. Having looked
at some of the descriptions of brothels and men's experience I
would say that probably 50% is about right. It does present a
challenge in things like communication, the provision of interpreters
and translation of materials. I suppose a lot of women from other
countries do not have the same understanding of social work services
and other NGOs that women have in the UK, so there is a bit of
mistrust which Bronagh has talked about. That is certainly a challenge.
We are convinced that the numbers that come forward to us are
going to increase significantly over the next couple of years,
so that is going to be a major challenge.
Ms Dudley: Certainly there does
appear to be an increase with regard to foreign women—I
am quoting from newspaper sources—noted in brothels. I am
basing this statement on a broad sweep of newspaper reporting
in the last five years or so. That is echoed by the sense that
I got from the interviews I conducted that there is an increase.
I do not want to forget by any means about women within Northern
Ireland who have been trafficked. I think it is important to remember
that there is internal trafficking as well as trafficking from
other countries. That is the first point. The second point is
it does place additional pressures on providers with regard to
resourcing to try to provide safety and support for women who
may have insecure immigration status and, therefore, problems
with regard to access to public funds. There are additional language
support requirements with regard to getting interpreters. There
are additional issues with regard to the support staff being sufficiently
aware of some cultural issues, and also the issue of time. It
takes a lot of time to build up trust even with somebody of your
own culture. There is an additional amount of time that is required
to build up trust with somebody who is of a different culture
from that she knows best. I think that covers it mostly. The people
who have additional needs and additional barriers to accessing
safety and support also have a great deal more needs in terms
of the different places we need to go to get resources to assist
them.
Ms Campbell: If I could add quickly
to that. Again, because of the conflict Northern Ireland has been
a very insular place with a very low level of anyone coming in
from the outside. Over the last eight years maybe since the Good
Friday Agreement that has changed with waves of inward migration,
ostensibly for the purposes of working in the chicken factories
mostly and whatever. We are really ill-equipped to recognise or
deal with anything of the nature of trafficking or give the support
that is required. In respect of the internal trafficking, there
are a lot of communities who have been very traumatised and suicide
rates have gone up, mental health rates and drug rates are all
spiralling within those situations. Again, I would say trafficking
and internal trafficking could rise and exploitation could rise.
We do need help to get those resources in, particularly because
we are very far behind the type of progressive approach that is
clear from Glasgow City Council and it just would not be on the
cards in Northern Ireland for any local council to look at doing
something like that. Thank you.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
1 Witness correction: 60-75% of prostitutes
were raped. Back
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