Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39
MS CHRISTINE
BEDDOE AND
MS NASIMA
PATEL
22 MAY 2006
Q20 Chairman: We are now joined by our
second group of witnesses: Christine Beddoe, who is Director of
ECPAT UK, and Nasima Patel, who is the Area Children's Service
Manager for London, NSPCC. I understand that you do not want to
make an opening statement from ECPAT but do you want to from NSPCC?
Ms Patel: No.
Q21 Chairman: ECPAT suggests in its
submission that trafficking of children for labour exploitation
is more common than for sexual exploitation. What support is there
for this argument? How are the dynamics different between the
two forms of trafficking in your experience?
Ms Beddoe: Thank you. Certainly
through research conducted in 2003 and 2004 by our organisation—ECPAT
UK—we were able to interview social services and other voluntary
sector agencies across London and identified what social services
themselves were able to identify as potential cases of trafficking.
In a number of these cases it was clearly highlighted where children
had been trafficked for purposes other than sexual exploitation
and primarily for domestic servitude these were children coming
from within the African communities. We have also had other evidence
since then to suggest this is a continuing situation. Recently
we have been hearing of more and more cases of Vietnamese children
who apparently have been trafficked in connection with cannabis
growing houses, which you may have already heard about from the
police. This indicates to us that the spread of child trafficking,
according to the case information that we have available to us,
is coming from much broader than sexual exploitation. However,
we must note that children who are trafficked, no matter what
purpose they are trafficked for, become extremely vulnerable to
sexual exploitation even though they may not have been trafficked
with that as the original intent. I would like to highlight that
because there are ongoing concerns about children who may have
been trafficked for domestic servitude and other forms of labour
exploitation but who have been raped and sexually abused once
they are in the country.
Q22 Chairman: Some of your earlier
research referred to unaccompanied minors coming from Africa trafficked
through to Italy, for example. Is that a significant trafficking
route still or has that ceased?
Ms Beddoe: I would not like to
say it is significant without making a comparison. Earlier today
I was attending the first ACPO—Association of Chief Police
Officers—steering group meeting on child trafficking and
once again this was raised as an issue within that particular
meeting. I do believe that it is of continuing concern.
Q23 Chairman: This question is to
both of you but perhaps I can put it to Nasima first to give you
a bit of a breather. You both mentioned the different ways by
which children might be trafficked into the UK as accompanied
or unaccompanied minors, through fostering arrangements and so
forth. Have you any other information on the difficulties posed
by these different modes of entry, for the detecting or preventing
of trafficking?
Ms Patel: I think the real challenge
is around identification in trafficking because our expertise
is mainly with children who have been trafficked and they do not
recognise they have been trafficked. Children who the NSPCC have
worked with tend to have come in not unaccompanied but with an
adult, either a friend or someone who knows someone, and that
is quite difficult. We have had cases where children have been
disguised and come in on false identification. That is a real
challenge. If children are unaccompanied that could trigger an
intervention at the port of entry but if they are accompanied
that is harder to identify. The biggest issue is identification.
Ms Beddoe: I agree with Nasima
on this issue of the problem of identification. One of the questions
you will probably raise is the whole issue of statistics and numbers
and what we know or do not know. What we know is there are structural
barriers to identification because agencies, particularly statutory
agencies, are not always mandated to collect specific information
on trafficking even though children are coming through services
who may well have been trafficked. I would agree with Nasima that
the very big issue of victim identification is very much at the
forefront of our concerns.
Ms Patel: Even when you get unaccompanied
minors it is very unusual for social services to ask them if they
have been trafficked. There is no-one asking the questions along
the way.
Q24 Chairman: Are there any steps
that might be taken with organisations in the countries of origin
of these children? Are there organisations that you could work
with there? Are there different factors in child trafficking as
opposed to adult trafficking that pull or push you in different
directions in this respect?
Ms Beddoe: ECPAT UK is part of
an international network of ECPAT groups in about 74 countries,
so we are very used to working with our international partners
and learning from them the good practice that is going on internationally,
not only in Europe but right around the world. There are a number
of ways in which that can be worked with children and their families
and communities, and also the authorities, in source countries,
as it were. Some of these are at the heart of prevention strategies.
It is also worth underlining that trafficking and the vulnerability
of children who come from many of these countries sits within
the much broader issue of poverty, lack of opportunity and gender
inequality, so we have to discuss prevention strategies among
a much broader framework.
Ms Patel: The notable thing about
the children the NSPCC have worked with who have been trafficked
is they tend to be children who come from countries where there
is civil unrest so they are orphans and the issue of consent is
problematic for our job but particularly for them.
Q25 Chairman: Could I ask you about
a point that ECPAT makes that the police are not really interested
in child trafficking unless it is mixed up with wider criminal
activity. We have heard in our informal briefing from the police
about the involvement of organised crime. To what extent do you
think the trafficking of children is part of organised crime as
opposed to what I think would be crime anyway but occasional crime,
in terms of drawing a distinction, for want of a better word?
What proportion of child trafficking do you think is not about
organised crime and, therefore, by definition from your evidence
the police are not interested in it? Is it in fact the case that
the police are not interested in it?
Ms Beddoe: Interestingly enough,
as I mentioned, today was the first ACPO steering group on child
trafficking and I think it is a very good signal (a) that they
invited voluntary sector agencies into that group to hear our
side, but (b) it signals some of the issues are being addressed
that we have raised and that goes to the heart of police guidance.
We are hoping that will be something that we will see results
on. In relation to your question as to whether or not the police
are interested in child trafficking for purposes other than sexual
exploitation, the answer is two-fold. One is the difficulties
of victim identification. When children are trafficked for domestic
servitude often the crime is in individual family homes, it is
in communities where we do not naturally have a lot of access,
so it goes to the heart of identifying victims in a scene that
is not a normal crime scene as it would be in the case of some
of the brothel raids that are going on. That is one of the issues.
Secondly, the importance of identifying other forms of labour
exploitation has not received the attention it deserves because
it is not necessarily situated in what we really understand. For
example, going back to domestic servitude and other forms of child
labour, some of the case evidence we have is that children are
working on building sites and this is not a natural place to see
a crime against children. It is about education and awareness
for the police to understand the situation of the crime and then
we may see raised awareness moving to addressing the crime. Yes,
we believe that children trafficked for other purposes is still
the majority of cases that we get but the trends are changing
all the time and we have got to be continually on top of those
trends. One of the things I do want to raise is that although
Operation Reflex, and certainly Operation Pentameter, is focusing
a lot of energy and resources into the trafficking of women for
sexual exploitation, one of the things we are hearing from our
colleagues in partner projects and other services is a number
of women who are being identified in these raids are just over
18, so between 18 and possibly 20. They may have started becoming
involved in the trafficking cycle when they were a child and we
have to come back to that point. We cannot avoid intelligence
or trends simply because at the time of identification the woman
was over 18, they may well have been under 18 and signalling a
trend in child trafficking much earlier on.
Ms Patel: The thing to add about
child trafficking and police work would be the needs of groups
of children who are victims of trafficking to give evidence and
their support needs in terms of witness support and protection
in going to court are quite enormous and challenging as well.
Q26 Baroness Stern: My question is
to both of you and it is about the current legislative framework.
You both say that the current legislative framework is not adequate
and that it focuses on criminal activity rather than victim protection.
I wonder, first of all, if you could provide any more illustrations
or examples or material that would help us to see the reality
of that. Secondly, do you think there are particular legal changes
that need to be made that enable us to respond better to child
trafficking in particular?
Ms Beddoe: I will start by saying
that although I do not see a particular problem with the current
legislative framework in relation to addressing criminal activity,
I do want to bring your attention to the fact that so few people
have been prosecuted for trafficking crimes against children and
that in itself needs to be looked into. I am sure you have spoken
to others about that. Although we do have the legislation in place
we do not seem to be seeing very many results of that. First of
all, on the protection of children, whilst we do have very good
systems in this country for safeguarding children and very good
provisions under the Children's Act, what seems to be in contradiction
is the immigration legislation and how this creates a barrier
to safeguarding the child victims of trafficking. Clearly this
is one of our main concerns and we would like to see those contradictions
between immigration legislation and the Children's Act and safeguarding
children policies clearly prioritised to make sure children who
are trafficked do receive the best possible care and attention
that we have available under the Children's Act.
Q27 Dr Harris: Do you mean by that
the removal of the reservation on the UN Rights of the Child Convention?
Ms Beddoe: That is definitely
one of our concerns. We would like to see the removal of the reservation
on Article 22.
Ms Patel: The NSPCC would also
like that. In terms of case material we have had children stay
in detention centres or even, at the age of 15, in Holloway Prison.
There is a tendency, and I think the legal framework goes to the
heart of it, to treat children who have been trafficked as illegal
immigrants, and that is an issue. We have had a number of girls
who have gone through very convoluted, adult orientated, very
punitive-type immigration tribunals. I have had staff who have
attended the tribunals quite distressed at the way pregnant teenagers
have been treated, and they are pregnant because they have been
quite horrifically sexually exploited as well. In terms of case
material, there is case material to demonstrate that. The other
issue would be the fact that children being trafficked at the
moment have to go through this immigration process and only get
leave to remain until the age of 18 and we would request that
the government does look at the possibility of giving indefinite
leave to remain to children who are trafficked. If there is evidence
that a child has been trafficked we would support a call for indefinite
leave to remain. The other issue would be looking at the issue
of re-trafficking and whether it could be grounds for asylum.
Particularly if the child is orphaned and has been trafficked
into this country then the chances of them being re-trafficked
if they do get sent back are enormously high.
Q28 Baroness Stern: Do you have any
examples or is this your perception that this is what is likely
to happen?
Ms Patel: We have got a number
of girls within our services who are now 18 and the legal advice
they got initially was that the chance of them being deported
is quite high at this stage, but the law is always changing. We
are going through all sorts of due process and we are hoping that
within the law there is movement for the fact that they have been
orphaned and are quite socialised into society, quite integrated,
and some of them are mothers, and that will be taken into account
in their favour. We do have the possibility of a number of girls
with children being deported at this stage on the advice we have
got.
Ms Beddoe: If I could just add
to Nasima's point. The issue of re-trafficking is a very significant
issue. We work with our international partners looking at some
of these issues. Just to give you an example to illustrate the
point: our partner agency in Cambodia is responsible for the repatriation
of Vietnamese girls who have been trafficked into Cambodia and
then returning them to Vietnam. I have been speaking to them a
lot about the process and how they make decisions about when to
return, how to return, and they are the only authorised organisation
to assist with the repatriation process. They have confirmed that
they will not repatriate any Vietnamese child until there has
been a prosecution of the trafficker in Vietnam because they believe
that the re-trafficking risk is so high that it is almost pointless
to send the child back because they will be returned. We need
to look at re-trafficking as a very significant issue, not only
re-trafficking to the UK but re-trafficking patterns across the
world. We have received information on a number of cases where
the parents have been implicated in selling the child to an agent
and therefore are part of the trafficking process and family reunification
is absolutely not in the best interests of those children. We
need to take on board a lot of these concerns when we think about
re-trafficking.
Q29 Dr Harris: Do you think that
the detection and dealing with the problem of child trafficking
is a high enough priority for the enforcement authorities in this
country?
Ms Beddoe: I think we are going
through a period of change in seeing how authorities, particularly
the police, are dealing with this issue. Once again, drawing on
my lunchtime meeting today with the ACPO group, there is now a
willingness to come to the table and say, "We don't know
enough. We need support and help and guidance". I do not
think it is a high enough priority from what we can see across
the board. We need to recognise that there is very little guidance
available for law enforcement and enforcement officers, not only
the police but also immigration, who are really at the coal face.
Q30 Dr Harris: Would you say that
there is a problem in respect of resources, not just a lack of
resources because everyone would say there is a lack of resources
in their area, but the activity in this area creates work for
social services, for the police, for immigration and, therefore,
no-one wants the extra work and unless there is a policy to prioritise
it to meet a target somewhere then by default it is not going
to be a high priority?
Ms Patel: I am sure the police
would be quite open in saying they are relying on hard-pressed
social services to take on a lot of the complex needs of these
children. It is not just about a lack of resources, it is a lack
of expertise as well. Social services have to take these children
on but do not really know what to do, so we have case material
of trafficked children being put in semi-independent, inadequate
accommodation without a lot of support. The challenge for the
police and social services is although they have a framework there
that they will get put in accommodation, there are not that many
services to work with these children who have been trafficked.
Q31 Dr Harris: Is there a problem
with co-ordination of the agencies concerned? If so, are you hopeful
that the UK National Action Plan will provide that co-ordination
if you feel that it is lacking?
Ms Patel: The thing with the National
Plan is it is voluntary, it is not compulsory, and what happens
when local authorities do not comply with the guidance. What you
are going to get is a very case-by-case service and inconsistency
in terms of quality of response, which is the issue. We would
like a proper National Plan just for children who have been victims
of trafficking.
Ms Beddoe: Can I pick up on one
point. You mentioned earlier something about accountability and
it is worth noting there are still no performance measures across
the police and a range of other services in regards to trafficking.
As we all know, until you have those performance measurements
in place there will be those who will see other competing priorities.
Perhaps that is something that we would see as an issue to be
raised to make sure those performance measures are in place.
Q32 Dr Harris: That is very helpful.
Before I hand over to Lord Judd can I just change the subject
slightly and ask a completely different question. I understand
there is a debate in Europe about whether in terms of managing
demand, as in Article 6 of the Convention, making more legitimate
mainstream prostitution, for which it is alleged there will always
be a demand and will always exist, will make it less likely that
children are used because men using these prostitutes can go to
a state regulated service, if you like. Is there any support for
that idea and is there any evidence from your international work,
ECPAT in particular, that there may be merit in that?
Ms Beddoe: As a children's focused
agency we do not get into the debate at all about adult prostitution.
We do not find it terribly helpful for our work. We need to look
at children involved in sexual exploitation as—
Chairman: This is going a bit beyond
our terms of reference. We have a lot of ground to cover today.
Q33 Dr Harris: No, I do not think
it is. I just want to ask my question. I do believe it is relevant.
I will try to put it again. It has been argued that children are
less likely to be used in prostitution if there is a form of prostitution
that is not underground, that is not criminal, that is inspected
and is therefore more legitimate than in states where it is all
illegal and there is no incentive on the users or the providers
to worry about the degree of exploitation and, therefore, that
might reduce the human rights abuses overall.
Ms Beddoe: That goes beyond the
mandate of my organisation so I cannot really comment.
Q34 Lord Judd: I think it would help
the Committee if you could identify some improvements that you
think could be made in the procedures which are used to determine
whether a child is a victim of trafficking.
Ms Patel: I think one of the issues
would be the appointment of some sort of guardian or advocate
for that young person who has been trafficked, not by the voluntary
sector but by the local authority. That would be quite useful.
The other thing that would help as well is to have easier access
to services, particularly appropriate accommodation, to have lots
of cultural and linguistic support for children who have been
trafficked.
Q35 Lord Judd: How do you determine
the age of the child? How do you tackle this issue of whether
they are being privately fostered? How do you discern whether
they are being privately fostered or not?
Ms Patel: The private fostering
issue is slightly complicated in the sense that there are changes
afoot. If a child has been privately fostered, the onus is on
the family which receives that child to declare they have got
a privately fostered child and the local authority will undertake
a social assessment to make sure that child is being well looked
after. On the age issue, there are psychological and social work
assessments you can get to determine the age of the child. It
has not been that problematic for us. We have got very experienced
social workers who have worked with children for a long time and
in terms of development discussions and issues you can have with
the child it is not that onerous to establish the age of a child.
Q36 Lord Judd: Do you think the immigration
officials at the point of entry are getting the kind of support
and training that is necessary to help in that respect?
Ms Patel: Yes, you could offer
training and guidance. One of the things we do advocate is the
multi-agency teams. If an immigration official thinks that a child
looks vulnerable they could refer them to the multi-agency team
who would carry out more of an investigative assessment and look
more into the details of that case. It is possible that would
help.
Ms Beddoe: Just to reaffirm Nasima's
point, we also advocate multi-agency teams, not only what we have
already, very good teams at Heathrow, but also right across the
country at points of entry. The only other thing I can add to
Nasima's earlier point is the importance of not only physical
health but also mental health issues and the importance of post-traumatic
stress we are seeing very much playing out in children as well
as adults, as you have already heard. There is psychosocial care
and psychological and mental health issues.
Q37 Lord Judd: Before we leave this
section, is there anything you would like to say about how measures
could be improved in terms of what is done with the child when
trafficking has been detected?
Ms Patel: Again, just to reiterate
what I said earlier, when a child has been trafficked, a child
has been horrifically abused and exploited but has been removed
from his or her home to a completely different culture and society,
we need to take into account the displacement issue as well. One
of the things that strikes us about the children we work with
is the absolute isolation that they feel. I know the previous
witnesses attested to the point that it does take a long time
to build a relationship with a child, for them to tell you his
or her story and what has happened. We would ask for sustained
funding for good services for those children who can offer a variety
of needs in different areas: health, accommodation, a lot of befriending,
a lot of emotional support, so they can relate the abuse they
have experienced and start recovering.
Q38 Lord Judd: To remember they are
children.
Ms Patel: Absolutely.
Q39 Mary Creagh: Both of you in your
submissions called upon the Government to remove its reservation
to Article 22 of the UN Convention and asked for the UK asylum
process to recognise child trafficking as a cause of persecution
on return. Can you just talk a little bit more about why you want
that and what you think that would achieve?
Ms Beddoe: The removal of the
reservation would signal not only understanding and acceptance
that all children who are in the UK deserve the best possible
care that we can give them, so it is a principle issue, as it
were, to start with, but also that we recognise something that
Nasima picked up as well, that of the long-term nature of working
with children who are trafficked and who have suffered the most
horrendous abuses. It is not something that happens immediately
overnight and we can find a quick solution and that is the end
of the problem, this is something that may go on for some time
and we need to recognise that in all our policies and provisions.
In terms of removing that, that is unquestionable both from ECPAT
and NSPCC. Sorry, what was the second part of the question?
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