Examination of Witnesses (Questions 84-99)
MR VERNON
COAKER MP, DEPUTY
CHIEF CONSTABLE
GRAHAME MAXWELL,
MR DAVID
BOLT AND
MR DAVID
WILSON
26 JUNE 2006
Q84 Chairman: Good afternoon, and welcome
to the third evidence session of our inquiry into the human rights
implications of human trafficking in the UK. We are joined for
our opening session today by Mr Vernon Coaker, Parliamentary Under
Secretary for Policing, Security and Community Safety, in the
Home Office; by Grahame Maxwell, Deputy Chief Constable of South
Yorkshire Police, who is the Programme Director of Operation Pentameter;
by David bolt, who is Executive Director of Intelligence of the
Serious Organised Crime Agency and Chairman of the Reflex group;
and by David Wilson, who is the Director for the Immigration and
Nationality Directorate Intelligence Service. I also welcome some
guests we have from an overseas institute, including Russia and
Moldova and Belarus, who are observing our proceedings. Minister,
would you like to make an opening statement, or shall we go straight
in?
Mr Coaker: Chairman, we thought
that it would probably be of benefit to the Committee if we went
straight to questions, to give people more opportunity to answer
questions. If that is okay with the Committee and yourself, Chairman,
we are quite happy to do that.
Q85 Chairman: The questions will
be directed to you in the first instance, but please refer any
questions to your colleagues if you wish. I will start by raising
the question of the evidence, such as it is, as to the extent
of trafficking in the UK. In your submission you referred to research
being published early in 2006, to include estimates of the size
of the market for trafficking for prostitution. Has that research
been published; and, if so, what does it show? If it has not been
published, why not?
Mr Coaker: Thank you, Chairman.
My colleagues will contribute as appropriate, or I will direct
particular questions to them. Can I start by making a few general
remarks on the extent and nature of trafficking. We are obviously
concerned with all forms of trafficking. Often the debate, for
perfectly understandable reasons, centres around trafficking for
sexual exploitation; however it is obviously about exploitation
of labour, child trafficking and trafficking with respect to organs.
We are very keen to build up our knowledge of all of these areas
so that we can have a better understanding of the extent of what
is happening, and we are determined to do that.
The Committee suspended from 4.17 pm to
4.24 pm for a division in the House of Lords
Mr Coaker: To quickly repeat it,
it is important for us all to remember that when we talk about
trafficking it is not about trafficking for sexual purposes, but
it is also in respect of labour exploitation, to children, and
with respect to donation of organs. One of the things that we
do know is that we have more knowledge about trafficking for exploitation
than about the others. We know that primarily the UK is a destination
country for victims. The majority of victims we do know come in
from eastern Europe, the Balkans, or from the Far East, particularly
China and Thailand. Recently there has been a growth in victims
of trafficking into prostitution originating from within the EU,
in particular from Lithuania, and West Africa, notably Nigeria.
We know from Operation Pentameter that there are more Brazilian
and African victims than we had thought. The majority of people
that we come across who are trafficked are vulnerable women. By
and large, they have been deceived into coming here with promises
of a better life. Once here, they are frightened to co-operate
with the authorities. They get put into debt and are told that
if they go to the police there will be ramifications not only
for them but for their families. The other thing we have found
of interest is that this is not just a problem that is confined
to the larger metropolitan areas; it is a national problem. I
can share with the Committee that we found three trafficked women
in the Isle of Anglesey, which I suggest would not be the immediate
location that people would think of; but it is a demonstration
of the seriousness of the problem that we face. The Deputy Chief
Constable will give more detail, but 84 victims were rescued from
sexual exploitation by Operation Pentameter. Of these, 12 were
minors, one as young as 14. We know from evidence received from
people that younger children are more likely to have been trafficked
for labour exploitation and benefit fraud, primarily from West
Africa, and that there is a problem of trafficking of children
from Vietnam in terms of tending cannabis farms. There are also
concerns about West African countries and there is some evidence—again
very tentative—in terms of trafficking for the purpose of
exorcism—almost witchcraft. We are trying to get some detail
about all of these, but that gives you an idea of the nature of
the problem we are facing with respect to trafficking. We are
trying to build up our evidence. The research has not been published
but is due to be published in due course this year. Discussions
are going on between Government departments, but we thought it
helpful to put into the public domain the preliminary findings
that there are an estimated 4,000 women victims in 2003. We have
not yet published that research but intend to do so as soon as
we can. It is the subject of discussions at the present time.
Q86 Chairman: Is it that research
has been completed and you are consulting when to publish it,
or has the research not been completed?
Mr Coaker: There are still discussions
going on about the research.
Q87 Chairman: Does that mean it has
not been completed?
Mr Coaker: As far as I am aware
it has not been completed. It is near to completion, as I understand
it.
Q88 Chairman: In relation to the
other forms of trafficking you mentioned—and we have had
some pretty harrowing evidence about trafficking children in particular—and
we will hear more evidence on Thursday about labour exploitation—what
evidence do you have of the scale of the problem of child trafficking
and labour exploitation?
Mr Coaker: We realise that there
is a need for us to develop that knowledge with respect to child
trafficking. One of the things we have done with respect to that
is to train our immigration officials to get them to become more
alert to the problem of people coming in to the country, so that
they can try to identify them. We have also worked with CEOP,
the new Child Exploitation Online Protection unit that we have
recently established. We have asked them to do a piece of work
for us which looks at how to get more evidence about the scale
of the problem. They have started that work, and when they come
back to us we will be able to understand what more we need to
do.
Q89 Chairman: At the moment, you
have no idea of the scale of the problem.
Mr Coaker: We know that we need
to do more to find out the scale of the problem. We know anecdotally;
from evidence that immigration officials pick up; from social
services; from the work that Operation Pentameter has done; and
we know from all the non-government organisations that there is
an issue with respect to child trafficking. We are trying to find
out the scale of the problem and what more we need to do, and
that is why we have commissioned this piece of research.
Q90 Chairman: Your best estimate
is that about 4,000 women have been trafficked for prostitution.
Mr Coaker: That is the figure
that we put into the public domain from a piece of unpublished
research.
Q91 Chairman: That is your best estimate
at the moment.
Mr Coaker: That is the figure
given by that piece of research.
Q92 Chairman: We have no figures
at all on trafficking in children or trafficking for labour. There
is a problem but we do not know how big it is.
Mr Coaker: That is what we are
trying to establish with this piece of research, to find out how
big the problem is and what we need to do in order to tackle it.
Q93 Chairman: You also mentioned
organ trafficking, and I think you are the first person to raise
that question in this inquiry. What evidence is there that there
is organ trafficking going on in the UK? We have had peripheral
suggestions of it elsewhere in Europe, but we have had very little
evidence of that.
Deputy Chief Constable Maxwell:
During Operation Pentameter no information or intelligence came
to light, or when we were doing Reflex operations, that there
was organ farming taking place in the UK. There is information
that it takes place in other parts of the world.
Q94 Chairman: How do governments
see trafficking of human-beings affecting the human rights of
the trafficked victims? What does the Government perceive the
issues to be? What is your understanding of the extent of the
obligations imposed on the UK through ECHR and other international
treaties?
Mr Coaker: Obviously, human rights
are at the centre of the work that we try to do with victims.
We try to adopt a victim-centred approach in our work. The first
element is to try and protect victims from the criminals that
seek to exploit them, and therefore we have a very rigorous enforcement
campaign to tackle the traffickers and would-be traffickers, because
that is an important part of protecting the human rights of individuals,
to try and stop people from engaging in criminal activity that
would impinge on their human rights. We know that the victims
of trafficking, or any victims, are accorded the same legislative
rights as any victims of crime, and we do not distinguish. We
have the Human Rights Act, which applies to victims equally. We
try to ensure that if victims do come forward they are protected;
that if they are giving evidence they are protected through the
Criminal Evidence Act. We also try through non-legislative measures
with things like the Poppy Project, and try to support them with
respect to their human rights. We also take a case-by-case approach
to particular individuals who come before us as victims, and try
to ensure that they are supported and that their needs are met.
We try to ensure that we do not pre-judge them. We talk to them
as individuals and human-beings, and we respect them. From April
2006 there has been a victims' code of practice. Again, that requires
the criminal justice system to ensure that victims' rights are
respected.
Q95 Chairman: To what extent do you
think that the victims are legal as opposed to illegal migrants
to the UK? What estimate have you made in this respect of the
impact of the future enlargement of the EU, particularly in relation
to Romania and Bulgaria? When we were in Italy, we learnt of significant
trafficking of Romanian people, and Albanians. That seems to be
the biggest issue there. Have you thought about the implications
for enforcement on enlargement? Obviously, it will be difficult
in relation to children to determine what is and what is not legal,
but can you give an estimate of that?
Mr Coaker: Again, Grahame wants
to say something in regard to that. Obviously, if the EU enlarges
and people migrate, it is a different situation than if they are
coming outside of the EU. The important point to make is that
when dealing with people in these situations, although legally
there are differences we try to take a victim-centred approach
to people who come before us. If people are trafficked, they are
trafficked, and we want to ensure that their rights are protected
and we want to support them. They are vulnerable and in a difficult
situation, and we know that they have needs; and we try to meet
those needs. The policy objective we have is to achieve that.
We know that we need to do more with respect to many of these
things. We know that there are challenges that we have to meet.
This is a new area of work, something that five or 10 years ago
perhaps people very rarely talked of; but it is a major challenge
for us, and we are determined to do what we can to meet it. We
have started to do a lot of work on it; we know that there is
more to do, and we are going to do that. From our perspective,
we are trying to focus on their needs as victims and to support
them.
Deputy Chief Constable Maxwell:
Operation Pentameter is probably law enforcement's biggest example
of recovered rescued victims. Of the 84, about 25 were from European
countries. One or two were from the emerging European countries,
but the vast majority were from Member States or people already
within the EU. In terms of analysis of the people involved in
trafficking, that is split between people from the Far East, the
Chinese gangs, and eastern European gangs; but there are none
from the two states that you mentioned at the present time.
Q96 Chairman: What do you estimate
is the proportion between legal and illegal migration? Obviously,
Vernon, we agree with the line you have advanced. What we are
seeing here is 21st century slavery, no more and no less. It is
important to establish to what extent they are here legally and
ending up in this terrible, terrible situation.
Deputy Chief Constable Maxwell:
The initial analysis of Pentameter is that about 40% of people
arrive legally and about 60% are illegal, who may have entered
the country not by covert means but by other means. They may well
have had false documents that have got them into the country.
We are going through a period now of de-briefing the victims and
trying to look at the traffickers we have got to see what methods
they have used.
Q97 Chairman: Vernon, can you tell
us what steps you are taking to reduce the demand for trafficking?
This is something referred to in the UK Action Plan. What do you
mean by "reducing demand"?
Mr Coaker: What we are saying
there is that we want to reduce the demand for trafficked women.
One of the key ways we are trying to do that is to change attitudes
and to get the message out there that these are women who are
being exploited. We are trying very hard to influence people with
respect to that. In trying to reduce demand for sexual exploitation,
we want people to be aware that in virtually no circumstances
can you imagine that a trafficked woman, working in a brothel
under duress, can really be said to be consenting to sex of her
free will. We are saying that if people are using a woman who
is operating in a brothel without free will, then she is not consenting
to sex; and under our law that is rape. We have been saying to
people through the publicity we put out and through messages that
the police and others have been giving that people should be aware
that if these premises are raided, it is quite possible that they
will be charged with rape. We want the punters to be aware of
that. We think there is evidence on various websites that punters
have been influenced by these messages. We also know that Pentameter
sent out campaign letters highlighting this sort of problem to
men's magazines. Even if men want to buy sex, if they are buying
sex with a trafficked woman, that is something that is immoral,
and we are trying to get that message across. I think the idea
of the campaign letters to men's magazines was quite an original
and imaginative idea. Leaflets have been given out to people going
to the World Cup, trying to influence behaviour and trying to
change attitudes. That is another important way in which we are
trying to change people's opinions. There are a number of ways
in which we have been trying to reduce demand. It is about changing
attitudes and opinions, and getting people to question their own
behaviour.
Q98 Chairman: Perhaps you would let
us have copies of the leaflets. Has anyone, any of the punters,
been prosecuted for anything?
Mr Coaker: As far as I am aware,
nobody has been prosecuted for rape—in fact I am sure of
that. Traffickers have been prosecuted, but nobody has been prosecuted
for rape. I know there are evidential problems and difficulties
with doing this—and people who know the law better than
me will be able to talk about honest belief and so on, and the
issues around that; but I do think that part of it has to be about
changing attitudes, and part of it has to be about saying that
where the police can gather the evidence they will take that to
the Crown Prosecution Service with the case, and hopefully it
will be put before the courts.
Q99 Chairman: In this connection,
have any of the women who have been discovered been under age,
and has that been an influence in these decisions?
Deputy Chief Constable Maxwell:
Yes, out of the victims that have been rescued, a dozen have been
17 or under, what we class as minors; and they are aged between
14 and 17. Certainly we know that some of the prices paid for
younger victims are premium prices.
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