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Lord Henley: My Lords, again I do not think that now is the time to discuss the own resources decision and last night's debate in another place. We shall certainly have our opportunity to discuss the matter in due course. Nor do I intend to follow the noble Lord in discussing what my right honourable friend may or may not have said in another place yesterday. I am afraid to say that I have not actually read what my right honourable friend had to say.

Perhaps I may make one brief point about the fight against fraud; namely, what was agreed in Copenhagen. It is very valid. It was agreed by all member states that it was in their own interests to pursue fraud because if they did not do so--and they were in the best position to pursue the fight against fraud--the very reputation of the entire Union would be called into question by all those individual citizens in the Community. Therefore, I hope that in due course every single member state will pursue this policy with the same vigour as Her Majesty's Government.

Lord Clark of Kempston: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the more effective control of public expenditure in Europe would be greatly increased if a committee were set up similar to the Public Accounts Committee that we have in this Parliament? Further, does he also agree that the Court of Auditors in Europe should model itself on our National Audit Office which places emphasis on value for money?

Lord Henley: My Lords, my noble friend makes very interesting suggestions. But as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Benson, I do not think that Question Time is the time for Her Majesty's Government to respond in considerable detail to what are perfectly valid suggestions that may or may not have advantages.

Lord Eatwell: My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm what Sir John Cope, the then Paymaster General, wrote to my honourable friend Mr. Andrew Smith last year? He wrote:

n the light of Sir John's admissions, is not the Minister's statement that the Government are committed to fighting fraud totally worthless?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I start by saying to the noble Lord what I heard in an aside from one of my noble friends: absolute nonsense. The noble Lord takes the simplistic socialist view that merely by spending money on a problem one can resolve it. I do not believe that money is the only answer. The best answer is for all member governments to have the appropriate attitude. Her Majesty's Government will continue to set a lead in this matter and encourage other member governments so to do.

Lord Richard: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Government are not taking up moneys which

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are available from the Commission in order to combat fraud? That was said in the other place yesterday by a Government Minister. Will the Minister be pleased to confirm it?

Lord Henley: My Lords, I was not denying the veracity of that letter from my right honourable friend the former Paymaster General. I was saying that the party opposite has a very simplistic view about how to go about things.

Noble Lords: Order, order!

The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne): My Lords, I am, as always, in the hands of the House. I observe that we have one more Question. I wonder whether your Lordships might feel that the time has come to move on.

Crime Prevention: Children and Young People

3.10 p.m.

Baroness David asked Her Majesty's Government:

    Whether, in view of public concern at the levels of violence to and by children and young people, they have any plans for improving co-ordination of research and action to reduce and prevent such violence.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Cumberlege): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government share public concern about violence to and by children and young people and remain determined to take concerted action against all crime. The strategy on crime prevention and partnership is being developed on a broad front both at a national and local level and a number of interdepartmental groups are in existence to provide a forum for co-ordination on this matter.

Baroness David: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, is she aware, and are the Government aware, that there is much concern about the operation of the child protection committees, the lack of any statutory basis for them, and the lack of resources to enable them to do preventive work? Are the Government reviewing the status and function of those committees? Does the noble Baroness realise that the most recent report, the 1993 Children Act Report, found that in some local authorities high numbers of children on child protection registers had no social worker allocated to them? Is that not a highly dangerous situation which must not be allowed to persist?

Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, although area child protection committees are not on a statutory basis, they have been established in all social services departments. There are 108 local committees. They do very good work indeed, and we support them. But we do not necessarily fund them centrally. Often they are funded by the police, the social services department, health authorities and education committees. We believe that that is the good idea because it strengthens their commitment.

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With regard to cases not allocated to social workers, we carried out a survey in 1992. We found that 97 per cent. of children on the register had an allocated social worker. But there was an issue in inner London. That is one that we expect social services departments to address.

Baroness Faithfull: My Lords, if the Minister considers that there should be co-ordination of research and action to reduce and prevent such violence, does she agree that that would include almost every ministry, voluntary organisations as well as individuals? For example, every day an enormous number of children in this country are out of school. Young people cannot obtain jobs. The Youth Training Service does not work to the advantage of all young people. The youth service has been cut back and the social services' expenditure reduced. Will such research cover all those aspects?

Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, yes, we have set up a number of groups. The interdepartmental official group on child abuse supports the ministerial and official group on domestic violence. There is also a new interdepartmental official group for crime prevention. However, with her vast experience of the subject, my noble friend will know that the best results are obtained locally and that it is really up to local organisations, be they voluntary or statutory, to work closely together to tackle that difficult problem.

Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, is the Minister aware of the horrifying statistic produced by the OPCS that children in this country under the age of one are in the age group most vulnerable to being murdered? Is that not such a terrible situation that it calls for national Government action rather than local initiatives?

Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, we appreciate that children under one year of age are twice as likely as children of other ages to be placed on child protection registers. The number of children who are murdered at that age is four per 100,000, so it is a very small number, although tragic for the families concerned. In trying to prevent that, we work very intensively with families who are at risk. We carry out such activities as pre-birth conferences which we believe go some way to ensuring that it does not happen to more young children.

Lord Rochester: My Lords, following the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, will the Government consider supplementing the funds available to voluntary youth organisations, in particular in the London boroughs, where it is reported that there has been in real terms a reduction in expenditure of almost 15 per cent. over the past four years? Would not such an investment be money well spent in seeking to reduce criminal and violent behaviour among young people?

Baroness Cumberlege: My Lords, we support voluntary organisations to a large extent. We support Barnardos, the Family Care Unit, the Home Start UK, the National Stepfamily Association, the NCVCCO, and the NSPCC. We also give financial support to Parentline

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and Childline. We recognise that a range of voluntary organisations are doing sterling work in that field and we support them.

Central European Time Bill [H.L.]

3.15 p.m.

Viscount Mountgarret: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to provide for the adoption of Central European Time in England, Wales and Northern Ireland; and to restrict the extent of the Summer Time Act 1972. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a first time.--(Viscount Mountgarret.)

On Question, Bill read a first time, and to be printed.

Business of the House: Debates, 30th November

Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord Ashley of Stoke set down for Wednesday, 30th November shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of the Lord Haskel set down for the same day to two hours.--(Viscount Cranborne.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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